Author Topic: Dunked in the Water  (Read 6478 times)

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Offline marip

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Dunked in the Water
« on: Tue Jul 15, 2014 - 08:56:01 »
 Good Morning everyone!
This last Sunday, our Pastor preached a message on being baptized.  The church was hold baptisms that day, and he was drumming up customers; or that is how it struck me....
You know, Jesus showed us over and over about ritualism. Indeed, as He walked, He took on every sin the devil can possibly conjor up;
He took every single pain and disease upon Himself;
He took emotional suffering and stress; He even took upon Himself homelessness and poverty ( He wasn't born poor, and He also put off all His princely rights as the Son of God, to save us from poverty and lack)
He became the Cornerstone for the Church to rest upon.
He even took upon Himself all the rituals that man used to try to get closer to God.
Including physical water baptism.
His Word says that He is the LIving Water
His Words are Water and Life to our Souls
When He allowed John to baptize Him, He took baptism onto Himself; so we only have to be washed in His Blood; we must be bathed (baptized in His Word)......
Only Jesus. Nothing or no one else has the Kingdom Keys; He is the Door; He is THE WAY; the ONLY WAY
You can dunk yourself in a pool of water every week if you like, but unless you submerge yourself into the Word of God, you will never be able to allow the Holy Spirit to live in your Heart! 
John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!
Read these:
Mark 1....
Acts1: 4-6; 19: 3-5

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Dunked in the Water
« on: Tue Jul 15, 2014 - 08:56:01 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #1 on: Tue Jul 15, 2014 - 09:06:51 »
nice try.   ::frown::

But the Risen Lord COMMANDED water baptism in Matt 28 and Mark 16.

And even it He took John's baptism onto Himself - we read in Acts 19 that John's baptism was insufficient.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #2 on: Tue Jul 15, 2014 - 09:09:21 »
OY!!!

Another baptism thread?  REALLY??

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #2 on: Tue Jul 15, 2014 - 09:09:21 »

Online Jaime

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #3 on: Tue Jul 15, 2014 - 09:25:48 »
No matter which side one is on, there appears to be a lot of false teaching about this subject. Probably bears ferreting out the truth.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #3 on: Tue Jul 15, 2014 - 09:25:48 »

Offline Carey

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #4 on: Tue Jul 15, 2014 - 10:25:00 »
But given opinion on the matter, the truth may continue to elude us.  That said, believe and be baptized, and regardless of God's intent, His wish will be fulfilled.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #4 on: Tue Jul 15, 2014 - 10:25:00 »



Offline chosenone

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #5 on: Tue Jul 15, 2014 - 10:52:52 »
I do think we should be baptised, but I was saved way before I was baptised.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #5 on: Tue Jul 15, 2014 - 10:52:52 »

notreligus

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #6 on: Tue Jul 15, 2014 - 12:15:57 »
nice try.   ::frown::

But the Risen Lord COMMANDED water baptism in Matt 28 and Mark 16.

And even it He took John's baptism onto Himself - we read in Acts 19 that John's baptism was insufficient.
As one who believes that the New Covenant is for the Jews, I find it puzzling that you do will not affirm that Christ was telling the disciples to go take the good news of the New Covenant to the Jews.   They needed to repent of the Law, come under New Covenant Grace, and they needed to be placed under the authority of Christ.

Apparently the Disciples/Apostles understood what Christ said.   

Acts 11:19  Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

Were they disobedient to Christ?   

notreligus

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #7 on: Tue Jul 15, 2014 - 12:28:09 »
I do think we should be baptised, but I was saved way before I was baptised.

I am with you.   Paul taught the meaning of baptism in Romans Chapter Six.   And Paul also said that he was not sent to baptize as he did not want to be accused of gaining new converts that were coming under his authority.   When we are baptized that is symbolic of our having been placed under the authority of Christ as we are identified with His baptism of death.   

Some will deny the Holy Spirit's direct role in conversion because they say that if the Holy Spirit is involved then God has interfered with our free will.   Likewise some deny the all-sufficiency of Christ's finished work on the cross because that would be an admission that God did all that was necessary for us to be saved, and that would be another example of God interfering with our free will.   We must walk the aisle and submit to water baptism to show that we have done our part in the salvation process.   

Offline DaveW

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #8 on: Tue Jul 15, 2014 - 12:37:57 »
Were they disobedient to Christ?

Yes.

Acts 1.8b  you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.

Acts 8.1 Saul was in hearty agreement with putting him to death. And on that day a great persecution began against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.

They did not go where the Lord told them to so he sent persecution to give them a "kick start."

And since they STILL did not get it, another persecution arose and God had to give Peter a vivid vision to get him to go to a gentile.  Eventually HE had to go to someone not in the Lord's inner circle to get the gospel to the gentiles: Paul.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 15, 2014 - 12:40:58 by DaveW »

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #8 on: Tue Jul 15, 2014 - 12:37:57 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #9 on: Tue Jul 15, 2014 - 12:42:46 »
Some will deny the Holy Spirit's direct role in conversion because they say that if the Holy Spirit is involved then God has interfered with our free will.   Likewise some deny the all-sufficiency of Christ's finished work on the cross because that would be an admission that God did all that was necessary for us to be saved, and that would be another example of God interfering with our free will.   We must walk the aisle and submit to water baptism to show that we have done our part in the salvation process.

As John Wesley said:  God has His part and we have our part.  God WILL NOT do our part and we CANNOT do God's part.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #10 on: Tue Jul 15, 2014 - 12:43:17 »
Good Morning everyone!
This last Sunday, our Pastor preached a message on being baptized.  The church was hold baptisms that day, and he was drumming up customers; or that is how it struck me....
You know, Jesus showed us over and over about ritualism. Indeed, as He walked, He took on every sin the devil can possibly conjor up;
He took every single pain and disease upon Himself;
He took emotional suffering and stress; He even took upon Himself homelessness and poverty ( He wasn't born poor, and He also put off all His princely rights as the Son of God, to save us from poverty and lack)
He became the Cornerstone for the Church to rest upon.
He even took upon Himself all the rituals that man used to try to get closer to God.
Including physical water baptism.
His Word says that He is the LIving Water
His Words are Water and Life to our Souls
When He allowed John to baptize Him, He took baptism onto Himself; so we only have to be washed in His Blood; we must be bathed (baptized in His Word)......
Only Jesus. Nothing or no one else has the Kingdom Keys; He is the Door; He is THE WAY; the ONLY WAY
You can dunk yourself in a pool of water every week if you like, but unless you submerge yourself into the Word of God, you will never be able to allow the Holy Spirit to live in your Heart! 
John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!
Read these:
Mark 1....
Acts1: 4-6; 19: 3-5
Welcome marip,
Baptized in His word?
This sermon uses a lot of word play.
For example he said Jesus only is the way. Do you pick and choose what about Jesus is the way?
We can and do easily say that since JESUS gave water baptism for Salvation Mark 16:16, then it is of Jesus.
So does your pastor say,  "No not that part of Jesus, but this part of Jesus."?

Lastly Jesus saves when we are water baptized. Another play on words. Your pastor described the water as it is in everyday life, not how, when combined with faith in Jesus, results in forgiveness of sins, as is communicated in Acts 2:38. The water without Jesus, as in swimming, doesn't save. Jesus saves when we are water baptized. This is the teaching, if you wish to address it.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 15, 2014 - 12:47:27 by e.r.m. »

Online Jaime

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #11 on: Tue Jul 15, 2014 - 12:44:58 »
Notreligious, I in no way deny the sufficiency of Christ's finished work on the cross saves us. I also do not deny that the Holy Spirit draws us. It is not however an irresistible tractor beam. Free will is still involved. We express our love for God by choosing to loving Him. He didn't set in motion a system of robotic obedience. He could, but he wants our choice to love him and to trust him. But he does nudge us along with his Spirit. Can we deny that nudging? I would say of course we can.

We earn no part of salvation, and the sufficiency of Christ's finished work should not be in question and isn't for me. It is accused almost daily here though. We don't submit to baptism to do our part, we submit to baptism because God commanded it and he does HIS work in baptism. At least Ananias told Paul that in Acts 22. Baptism is a work of God, not man, anymore than confessing with our lips that Jesus is Lord. There is no more passive thing for man than to drop his resistance and submit himself in baptism, calling on the name of the Lord.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 15, 2014 - 13:01:08 by Jaime »

notreligus

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #12 on: Tue Jul 15, 2014 - 13:48:01 »
Were they disobedient to Christ?

Yes.

Acts 1.8b  you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.

Acts 8.1 Saul was in hearty agreement with putting him to death. And on that day a great persecution began against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.

They did not go where the Lord told them to so he sent persecution to give them a "kick start."

And since they STILL did not get it, another persecution arose and God had to give Peter a vivid vision to get him to go to a gentile.  Eventually HE had to go to someone not in the Lord's inner circle to get the gospel to the gentiles: Paul.

Good answer.  I have a hard time keeping up with you.  One moment you are a Messianic Jew and the next moment you are Gentile.   You're gonna split your britches if you keep walking with one foot on the Messianic sidewalk and the other on the opposite Gentile side of the street.   

Saul = Hebrew

Paul = Latin

Offline DaveW

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #13 on: Wed Jul 16, 2014 - 06:00:44 »
Quote
You're gonna split your britches if you keep walking with one foot on the Messianic sidewalk and the other on the opposite Gentile side of the street.

LOL!!!  I was in the gentile church for about 40 years.  So as a gentile adherent to Messianic Judaism, I have the priveledge/burden of walking with one foot in each world. I try to be somewhat relatable to both camps.

Offline marip

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #14 on: Wed Jul 16, 2014 - 07:29:14 »
The point is that it is not by our actions that we are saved, but by HIS actions......
We can only be saved by accepting that it is God's Grace and Mercy to allow His only Son to be sacrificed for all mankind; and that we only have to believe in Jesus; it is our Faith alone; which is the "part" that we have to do....
I was back-slidden and had thrown out my back so badly that I was sure I may have cracked it; too sick to move, and with a husband who didn't care, I could only lay flat on the floor; in a cold sweat, in great pain, shaking.... the only thing on TV was Oral Roberts, so I lay there watching and listening and crying..... When he gave the alter call, I said "oK Lord, if that's what you want" and Instantly, His warm Breath of Life flowed through me from the top of my head to my feet, and The Light of the Holy Spirit came into my heart, and I was healed and even delivered from cigarettes! And I know that I know that I know that I am saved by His Grace ever since. I didn't have to take a bath in public; Jesus met me where I was; broken, forgotten, suffering in pain, and flat on the floor!
Jesus came to remove all the rituals and grandstanding because it was turning man away from Him.  The Saducees were famous for displaying their "holiness" in public and Jesus admonished them for that.....
Paul said; "We walk by faith not by sight".... If you think God is  waiting for you to get dunked in some tub to save you; you are wrong; He is waiting, arms opened wide; for you to look HIS way; to turn your eyes to HIM, and as soon as He sees you coming toward HIM He will run towards YOU and wrap you in His arms and keep you there forever!  You congregation isn't going to save you; Jesus already has.  Jesus did not command us in Matthew to submerge people in water; He commanded us to baptize people in the Name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit; in other words, He told us to share the WORD with others, so they can be washed in His Living Water of Life.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #15 on: Wed Jul 16, 2014 - 07:32:27 »
So if you are unbaptized you still have the corpse of the old man hanging around like some zombie?

Not good.

Offline soterion

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #16 on: Wed Jul 16, 2014 - 07:44:52 »
Jesus came to remove all the rituals and grandstanding because it was turning man away from Him.  The Saducees were famous for displaying their "holiness" in public and Jesus admonished them for that.....
Paul said; "We walk by faith not by sight".... If you think God is  waiting for you to get dunked in some tub to save you; you are wrong; He is waiting, arms opened wide; for you to look HIS way; to turn your eyes to HIM, and as soon as He sees you coming toward HIM He will run towards YOU and wrap you in His arms and keep you there forever!  You congregation isn't going to save you; Jesus already has.  Jesus did not command us in Matthew to submerge people in water; He commanded us to baptize people in the Name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit; in other words, He told us to share the WORD with others, so they can be washed in His Living Water of Life.

I have two thoughts to share.

First, I thought Jesus came to seek and save the lost. And, I thought He has the right to say what a person needs to do or not need to do to receive the salvation He is offering.

He is the One who commanded baptism in Matthew 28 and Mark 16, and it is not defined as immersion in His word. All throughout Acts you find His command being obeyed as people are being immersed in water. Our part in reading scripture is not to try and change the parameters of what God commands to fit our personal sensibilities, but to fit what He says into our way of thinking and do it.

Second, personal experiences have to be interpreted by the word of God, when those experiences are what we consider to be God working through us and for us in some way. I am not going to tell you that you did not experience something special from God, but I would suggest that nobody was saved in scripture the way you said you were saved. God may have been giving you an experience so as to seek His will in scripture and obey what He actually does say. I had an experience early in my search for God, one which people would try to tell me meant I was saved, but I saw in the word that such was not the case; I still had to obey Him in baptism.

Offline marip

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #17 on: Wed Jul 16, 2014 - 08:16:00 »
nice try.   ::frown::

But the Risen Lord COMMANDED water baptism in Matt 28 and Mark 16.

And even it He took John's baptism onto Himself - we read in Acts 19 that John's baptism was insufficient.

Jesus commanded us to go out into the whole world and baptize in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit...Which is the Word of God; The Water of Life..... He didn't tell anyone to go submerge people in water; in fact, He said Only Believe It is the very fact that John's baptism was insufficient, because it was only intended to point the way to Jesus not take the place of Him;
John 3:29-31American Standard Version (ASV)

29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, that standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is made full.

30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is of the earth, and of the earth he speaketh: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

Do you see, that Jesus took it all upon Himself; so His Children can be freed from all acts and rituals that only got in the way of being as close to God as possible. It is not by our works, lest anyone should boast; it is by Faith only that we are saved.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #18 on: Wed Jul 16, 2014 - 08:43:48 »
He is the One who commanded baptism in Matthew 28 and Mark 16, and it is not defined as immersion in His word.

That is not the way it reads in English but in the Greek it is defined that way.  The word "to baptize" baptizo means to dip, plunge, soak, immerse. Rather than properly translate baptizo as "immerse," the KJV translators (under command of the king) created a new word in English; "baptize," that no one knew what it meant.

So the command is to immerse. Unless otherwise specified, all mentions of bapto or baptizo assume in water unless otherwise stated.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #19 on: Wed Jul 16, 2014 - 08:54:29 »
Marip - God has nothing against rituals.  He instituted many Himself via Moses. Jesus participated in Synagogue and Temple rituals his entire life. The apostles kept going to the synagogues and Temple even decades after He rose again.

Yes - John's baptism was insufficient.  See Acts 19.  Paul had those men - re-baptized in water.

Elsewhere Paul calls on the image of being immersed and brought up as a physical action that initiated a spiritual transaction of burying the old nature (having been buried with Him in baptism) and coming up out of the water (up with Him) to walk in newness of life.  Colossians 2:12 Romans 6:4

How exactly are we supposed to be "as close to God as possible"  if we are being disobedient?

And what does the bible say about people who teach others to disobey?

Offline marip

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #20 on: Wed Jul 16, 2014 - 09:09:48 »
He is the One who commanded baptism in Matthew 28 and Mark 16, and it is not defined as immersion in His word.

That is not the way it reads in English but in the Greek it is defined that way.  The word "to baptize" baptizo means to dip, plunge, soak, immerse. Rather than properly translate baptizo as "immerse," the KJV translators (under command of the king) created a new word in English; "baptize," that no one knew what it meant.

So the command is to immerse. Unless otherwise specified, all mentions of bapto or baptizo assume in water unless otherwise stated.

Yes, Yes DaveW; Immerse! in the Word of God!!!

We are to jump into the LIving Word of God; the Water of LIfe head first!

That is our salvation; to immerse ourselves in Jesus!

Marip - God has nothing against rituals.  He instituted many Himself via Moses. Jesus participated in Synagogue and Temple rituals his entire life. The apostles kept going to the synagogues and Temple even decades after He rose again.

Yes - John's baptism was insufficient.  See Acts 19.  Paul had those men - re-baptized in water.

Elsewhere Paul calls on the image of being immersed and brought up as a physical action that initiated a spiritual transaction of burying the old nature (having been buried with Him in baptism) and coming up out of the water (up with Him) to walk in newness of life.  Colossians 2:12 Romans 6:4

How exactly are we supposed to be "as close to God as possible"  if we are being disobedient?

And what does the bible say about people who teach others to disobey?

What exactly are you obeying? Jesus or Man's demand to display themselves?  the Bible sys that Man blows (himself up like a (bay laurel is one translation) native tree) or, Man likes to swell himself up with vanity and ego!

God allowed the ritual, and in fact demanded it because Man would not just live for Him; would not obey Him, would not turn his life over to Him without it.
Jesus came to "set the captive free"  He is the only thing we need; what good is dunking in water if your heart is not filled with the Holy Spirit?  So, do you think that people who live in places where water is so scarce they don't waste it can't be saved?  The Water of the Living God is His Truth; His Word. We are to be baptized; immersed in His Word, and washed by His Blood, and filled by His Spirit only to be saved. Holding on to ritual doesn't bring one closer to God; it keeps him farther away. Letting go of all human desire; all human acts and turning everything over to God through Jesus our Christ makes us one with Him.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #21 on: Wed Jul 16, 2014 - 09:18:35 »
Oy! Marip, you are adding to the Word.  There are plenty of immersions in the NT, but "in the Word" is NOT one of them.

I will recant if you can show me one place where it says to immerse ourselves in the Word.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #22 on: Wed Jul 16, 2014 - 10:05:19 »

Jesus came to remove all the rituals and grandstanding because it was turning man away from Him.  The Saducees were famous for displaying their "holiness" in public and Jesus admonished them for that.....


God looks to the heart, if one is baptized to show off  his/her holiness, God will know. Baptism in our church is preceded by testimony, and in my experience, what we reveal about our wretched lives before we accepted Christ is certainly not the stuff to boast about, quite the opposite.

The question then becomes....

What does God have to gain by us publicly dunking ourselves, or any ceremonial actions of our part?  God does not need them,  but for the Body of Christ they give nourishment, build faith, and give us the opportunity to see God working in the lives of others. 










notreligus

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #23 on: Wed Jul 16, 2014 - 10:34:36 »
So if you are unbaptized you still have the corpse of the old man hanging around like some zombie?

Not good.

A dry unsaved sinner goes into the water and comes out a wet unsaved sinner.

There are many folk who are not saved because they believed the water gospel but never opened their hearts to the Holy Spirit.   

notreligus

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #24 on: Wed Jul 16, 2014 - 10:36:10 »
Jerry Falwell once said that if baptism saved people he'd drive a fire truck around and stop and hose down everyone he saw.   

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #25 on: Wed Jul 16, 2014 - 10:40:36 »
Quote

Jesus came to remove all the rituals and grandstanding because it was turning man away from Him.  The Saducees were famous for displaying their "holiness" in public and Jesus admonished them for that.....


I did a study by Beth Moore that was on the Temple and the rituals God required.  How beautiful they were! I was left feeling like Christianity would be so much deeper and meaningful if we were at least taught about those rituals and WHY they are done.  God is such a beautiful author of order and love.




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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #26 on: Wed Jul 16, 2014 - 12:05:07 »
nice try.   ::frown::

But the Risen Lord COMMANDED water baptism in Matt 28 and Mark 16.

And even it He took John's baptism onto Himself - we read in Acts 19 that John's baptism was insufficient.

Jesus commanded us to go out into the whole world and baptize in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit...Which is the Word of God; The Water of Life..... He didn't tell anyone to go submerge people in water; in fact, He said Only Believe It is the very fact that John's baptism was insufficient, because it was only intended to point the way to Jesus not take the place of Him;
John 3:29-31American Standard Version (ASV)

29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, that standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is made full.

30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is of the earth, and of the earth he speaketh: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

Do you see, that Jesus took it all upon Himself; so His Children can be freed from all acts and rituals that only got in the way of being as close to God as possible. It is not by our works, lest anyone should boast; it is by Faith only that we are saved.
Baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is baptism in water Acts 10:47-48. Being that the command was given to the apostles to do to the disciples made, and commanded these disciples to do to others Matt. 28:19, One person cannot baptize another person in the name as you are suggesting.
What does that even look like? Does someone one just recite the phrase "I baptize you in the name..." and they're done?

marip, the mikveh was the backdrop for baptism.
Immersing people in water was the only possibility conveyed in Matt. 28:19.

If instead it was what you suggested, Peter would not have ordered that they be baptized in water in Acts 10:47-48 and the Eunuch would not have said, "Look, there's Water. Why shouldn't I be Baptized?"

marip, these inconsistencies are the norm with a person believing in an experience type salvation, and only then trying to back up that experience with scripture. You're 'conversion' should have first have been scriptural, then experiential.
Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

I fear you are so deep in the emotional/experiential type of christianity it may be hard for you to be objective.
It's not one or the other, it's both, but scripture takes precedence.
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 16, 2014 - 12:14:55 by e.r.m. »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #27 on: Wed Jul 16, 2014 - 12:12:07 »
So if you are unbaptized you still have the corpse of the old man hanging around like some zombie?

Not good.
A dry unsaved sinner goes into the water and comes out a wet unsaved sinner.

Huh?  That is a serious non-sequitor.

I completely agree with you on this but it is a mile from what I was talking about.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #28 on: Wed Jul 16, 2014 - 12:20:04 »
Jerry Falwell once said that if baptism saved people he'd drive a fire truck around and stop and hose down everyone he saw. 
Shows that he did not understand baptism. Baptism isn't getting wet, baptism is full immersion combined with faith in Christ. Any body want to address real baptism, and not antics?

Offline DaveW

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #29 on: Wed Jul 16, 2014 - 12:33:27 »
Quote from: notreligus
Jerry Falwell once said that if baptism saved people he'd drive a fire truck around and stop and hose down everyone he saw. 
Shows that he did not understand baptism. Baptism isn't getting wet, baptism is full immersion combined with faith in Christ.

Both biblical faith and repentance are prerequisites to being baptized.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #30 on: Wed Jul 16, 2014 - 12:35:19 »

Jesus came to remove all the rituals and grandstanding because it was turning man away from Him.  The Saducees were famous for displaying their "holiness" in public and Jesus admonished them for that.....


Quote
God looks to the heart, if one is baptized to show off his/her holiness, God will know.
Baptism was never designed as a show off event.

Quote
Baptism in our church is preceded by testimony, and in my experience, what we reveal about our wretched lives before we accepted Christ is certainly not the stuff to boast about, quite the opposite.
And who said it was for showing off? Baptism doesn't even have to be public. It could be done in private bevause it's for forgiveness of sins, having absolutely nothing to do with the public. Having family and friends and the body join you in this wonderful event is a perk.

Quote
The question then becomes....

What does God have to gain by us publicly dunking ourselves, or any ceremonial actions of our part?  God does not need them,  but for the Body of Christ they give nourishment, build faith, and give us the opportunity to see God working in the lives of others.
Public or private is irrelavent? God gains the joy of saving another soul. I agree that for the Body of Christ they give nourishment, build faith, and gives them the opportunity to see God working in the lives of others. But again, that's a perk, not required.
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 16, 2014 - 12:39:20 by e.r.m. »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #31 on: Wed Jul 16, 2014 - 12:41:10 »
Quote from: notreligus
Jerry Falwell once said that if baptism saved people he'd drive a fire truck around and stop and hose down everyone he saw. 
Shows that he did not understand baptism. Baptism isn't getting wet, baptism is full immersion combined with faith in Christ.

Both biblical faith and repentance are prerequisites to being baptized.
Agreed.

Online Jaime

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #32 on: Wed Jul 16, 2014 - 13:02:28 »
So if you are unbaptized you still have the corpse of the old man hanging around like some zombie?

Not good.

There are many folk who are not saved because they believed the water gospel but never opened their hearts to the Holy Spirit.   

Has a non-effectual water baptism ever taken place? Absolutely! I can name several people that were literally drug to the baptistery kicking and screaming. They just got ceremonially in front of some witnesses for nothing. If people teach that all that is required is to get someone wet, THEY are all wet.

Has anyone ever spoken with their lips that Jesus is Lord and savior and didn't really mean it? I would say certainly, and their actions would be just as ineffectual.
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 16, 2014 - 13:05:59 by Jaime »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #33 on: Wed Jul 16, 2014 - 13:10:38 »
So if you are unbaptized you still have the corpse of the old man hanging around like some zombie?

Not good.

There are many folk who are not saved because they believed the water gospel but never opened their hearts to the Holy Spirit.   

Has a non-effectual water baptism ever taken place? Absolutely! I can name several people that were literally drug to the baptistery kicking and screaming. They just got ceremonially in front of some witnesses for nothing. If people teach that all that is required is to get someone wet, THEY are all wet.

Has anyone ever spoken with their lips that Jesus is Lord and savior and didn't really mean it? I would say certainly, and their actions would be just as ineffectual.
Agreed.
I remember this girl coming into work one day around 1990, smiling saying flippantly about this altar call event, throwing her hand from side to side, "She got saved, and I got saved..." like it was a fad. There was nothing in her tone or look that indicated the alleged scale of event this was supposed to be.
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 16, 2014 - 13:22:57 by e.r.m. »

Offline marip

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #34 on: Wed Jul 16, 2014 - 13:26:12 »
So if you are unbaptized you still have the corpse of the old man hanging around like some zombie?

Not good.

There are many folk who are not saved because they believed the water gospel but never opened their hearts to the Holy Spirit.   

Has a non-effectual water baptism ever taken place? Absolutely! I can name several people that were literally drug to the baptistery kicking and screaming. They just got ceremonially in front of some witnesses for nothing. If people teach that all that is required is to get someone wet, THEY are all wet.

Has anyone ever spoken with their lips that Jesus is Lord and savior and didn't really mean it? I would say certainly, and their actions would be just as ineffectual.
Agreed.
I remember this girl coming into work one day around 1990, smiling saying flippantly and very casually about this altar call event, throwing her hand from side to side, "She got saved, and I got saved..." like it was the in thing to do.

e.r.m.; The Lord meets where we are; so I believe He will use any source to get us to Him; or get us back to Him.... so, water baptism, if it makes someone sincerely come to Christ, then it is just as important and effectual as having to go through a major life trauma, or miracle.
However, it is the very statement you just made, that it left you with the opinion that this young lady was boasting in herself after being baptized, is the reason why Jesus took away all forms of Human rituals as a need to attain Salvation; we only need Jesus; nothing and no one else. The Bible said that the veil was torn the moment that "It is Finished" occurred;  that was the veil of the tabernacle, where we could not come to God but through certain rituals; now We can come "boldly to the throne of Grace" through our Lord and Savior Jesus, and that is the only way we can get there.

 

     
anything