Author Topic: Dunked in the Water  (Read 6552 times)

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Offline grams

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #175 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 11:01:04 »

I am hoping and praying those of you who do not believe what I have been saying will take a look at this !
I had not understood this myself at first and then it became clear.
A time past !  But Now !   And ages to come.   How different  ! 
Jesus death changed things.   And then again after the calling away things will change.    Big changes in all.

http://enjoythebible.org/timeline.html

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #175 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 11:01:04 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #176 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 11:32:30 »
I think you may be reading into this a little. I see where the baptism in Christ name was mentioned but the baptism in the holy spirit as you seem to be inferring is not said to be here. Paul laid hands on them to transfer the power for witness so they could plant a new church. The way most teach the baptism of the holy spirit is not done by the laying on of hands so I do not see where there is two baptisms other than Johns and In Jesus name for the giving of the spirit talked about here.

NO it is not called baptism in the Holy Spirit but if you research what that is (Spirit Upon) you will find this fits the bill.  This is what the Risen Lord told the 11 in Acts 1:

"...but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” v5b

And here is how He described that baptism:

"you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.” v8

Did not the Holy Spirit come in power on those men in Acts 19?  Were not the outward signs the same? 

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #177 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 11:32:52 »

I am hoping and praying those of you who do not believe what I have been saying will take a look at this !
I had not understood this myself at first and then it became clear.
A time past !  But Now !   And ages to come.   How different  ! 
Jesus death changed things.   And then again after the calling away things will change.    Big changes in all.

http://enjoythebible.org/timeline.html
I believe if the Bible authors believed what you have been saying, they would have said it themselves. You would not be forced to "see" it.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #177 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 11:32:52 »

Offline soterion

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #178 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 11:39:16 »
NO it is not called baptism in the Holy Spirit but if you research what that is (Spirit Upon) you will find this fits the bill.  This is what the Risen Lord told the 11 in Acts 1:

"...but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” v5b

And here is how He described that baptism:

"you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.” v8

Did not the Holy Spirit come in power on those men in Acts 19?  Were not the outward signs the same? 

DaveW,

Jesus spoke those words to the eleven (add the new one to make it twelve) and it was fulfilled in chapter 2 exactly as He said it. The Spirit fell on them and they began their ministry as witnesses. Jesus spoke these things concerning those particular men and their particular ministry. I wouldn't apply it to any others.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #178 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 11:39:16 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #179 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 12:01:48 »
Quote
Jesus spoke these things concerning those particular men and their particular ministry. I wouldn't apply it to any others.
That was not how Peter took it that day.  Our Lord told them this:

Acts 1:4  Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me;

and on that day Peter said this to the crowd:

Acts 2:39  For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #179 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 12:01:48 »



Offline yogi bear

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #180 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 12:02:11 »
I think you may be reading into this a little. I see where the baptism in Christ name was mentioned but the baptism in the holy spirit as you seem to be inferring is not said to be here. Paul laid hands on them to transfer the power for witness so they could plant a new church. The way most teach the baptism of the holy spirit is not done by the laying on of hands so I do not see where there is two baptisms other than Johns and In Jesus name for the giving of the spirit talked about here.

NO it is not called baptism in the Holy Spirit but if you research what that is (Spirit Upon) you will find this fits the bill.  This is what the Risen Lord told the 11 in Acts 1:

"...but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” v5b

And here is how He described that baptism:

"you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.” v8

Did not the Holy Spirit come in power on those men in Acts 19?  Were not the outward signs the same?
No it is reading into it your thoughts just as you have admitted.

It does not match that well as far as I can tell.
As in the Apostles as you point to no one laid hands on them or in the case of Cornelius but it came direct from heaven as promised and was called the pouring out of the spirit with a two fold event. Some would get power of witness but all would get the indwelling.

John said that Jesus would baptize with the holy ghost and from scripture it meant would give the indwelling spirit and that was promised to all see Acts 2:39 That baptism did not give the power. From Scripture the power of witness was only transferred to other by laying on of hands and was not considered to be what happened to the Apostles for in Acts 10 we see when the same happened to Cornelius as did the Apostles Peter had to point all the way back to Pentecost and there were others that had the laying on of hands for the power to witness to plant churches but was not considered the same as the event at Pentecost.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #180 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 12:02:11 »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #181 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 12:05:26 »
Quote
Jesus spoke these things concerning those particular men and their particular ministry. I wouldn't apply it to any others.
That was not how Peter took it that day.  Our Lord told them this:

Acts 1:4  Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me;

and on that day Peter said this to the crowd:

Acts 2:39  For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”
Again reading into it your own thoughts. Proof; we all know that the power of witness is not promised to all as the indwelling spirit is so Acts 2:39 is in reference to the indwelling spirit that John foretold and not the power of witness.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #182 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 12:30:26 »
Yogi - you are confusing the indwelling Spirit with the Spirit Upon. 

Baptism in the Holy Spirit is Spirit Upon and happened to the apostles in Acts 2. 
The indwelling Spirit had already occured in John 20.

Part of the "Promise" Peter referenced was in his quote of Joel 2: "I will pour out of my Spirit on all flesh ... your sons and daughters shall prophesy ..."

And Our Lord called that "baptism in the Holy Spirit."
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 12:32:59 by DaveW »

Offline opie

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #183 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 12:50:23 »
Not wanting to distract from the current conversation, just hoping this will be of value to some, and to have opportunity to receive correction if in error.

1 Cor. 1:17 “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.”

It is often claimed that this verse proves that baptism is not part of the gospel.  I believe that such a view fails to properly account for the grammar, context (both local and historical), and logic of the passage.

Grammar:
The claim that Paul is contrasting baptism with the gospel is false.  The verse makes no mention of the noun “baptism”, rather it uses the verb “to baptize”.  Paul does not compare the verb “baptize” with the noun “gospel”; instead the comparison is between “baptize” and “preach”.  Nor does this verse indicate that Paul was forbidden to baptize.  The “not … but …” construction employed here is commonly found throughout the Scriptures, and it would be a mistake to insist that such a construction is intended to totally restrict the first part of the sentence.  This construction is frequently used to demonstrate the greater importance of the second part of the sentence.  A few  examples:

John 6:27 “Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life …"
Jesus does not mean that we should cease all physical labor.

Acts 5:4 “… You have not lied to men but to God."
Peter was not saying that Ananias had been truthful with him.

1 John 4:18 “My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.”
This is not a prohibition against loving speech.

Local context:
Read 1 Corinthians 1:10-17 for yourself.  The issue being dealt with here is division in the church at Corinth.  Paul uses three rhetorical questions in verse 13 to remind them that they are to be united in Christ.  The first serves to point out that Christ is not divided.  Then he asks “Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?” - these questions were clearly intended to remind them that it was Christ (not Paul, or any other person) who had been crucified for them, and in whose name they had been baptized.  Implicit in such a reminder is Paul's assumption that the Corinthians had been baptized; otherwise, his effort to correct their division would only have served to give them something else to divide over.  Paul goes on to express thanks that he “baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius” (v. 14).  Notice that he does not express any regret at having baptized these (or the household of Stephanas, v. 16), nor is there any indication that Paul had sinned in so doing.  He plainly tells us the reason for his gratitude at having baptized only a few –  that they were given no further occasion for division: “lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name” (v. 15).

Historical context:
As has already been pointed out, the text does not make a comparison between baptism and the gospel, but between the act of baptizing and the act of preaching.  So the question is not whether Paul himself baptized the Corinthians, but whether he included baptism when he preached the gospel to the Corinthians.  Acts 18:8: “Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.”  In response to Paul’s preaching the Corinthians “believed and were baptized”.  This implies that Paul did not consider including baptism in his preaching to be contrary to the message of the cross.  Otherwise, he would have refrained from preaching it, “lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect” (v. 17).

Logic:
In spite of all of this, some will cling to some variation on the notion that Paul would not have made such a statement if baptism were important.  This is a straw man argument, which only serves to distract from the truth.  No special significance is attached to the individual who performs the rite, no claim is made that you are saved by the one who baptizes you.  Indeed, if Paul’s aim were to diminish the significance of baptism, then he weakens his own argument.  After all, he appeals to their unity in Christ on two points – the crucifixion and their baptism (v. 13).  If baptism is of little importance, then Paul has here made a most uneven pairing, uncharacteristic of a writer of his skill.  I would argue that Paul has made no such blunder, but would instead appeal to the elegant symmetry that he employs – by emphasizing the crucifixion and their baptism, he reminds the Corinthians of the singular and undivided nature of Christ’s sacrifice on their behalf, and of their common connection to that sacrifice through their baptism.  To deny the importance of baptism here is to destroy Paul’s argument.

Finally, by leaving the baptizing up to others (it required no special skill), Paul could spend more time preaching, which would actually result in more baptisms than if Paul had stopped preaching in order to personally administer the rite.  It seems silly to claim that Paul deemphasized the importance of baptism by virtue of pursuing a course of action that would have resulted in more baptisms, not fewer.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #183 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 12:50:23 »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #184 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 13:01:12 »
Not wanting to distract from the current conversation, just hoping this will be of value to some, and to have opportunity to receive correction if in error.

1 Cor. 1:17 “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.”

It is often claimed that this verse proves that baptism is not part of the gospel.  I believe that such a view fails to properly account for the grammar, context (both local and historical), and logic of the passage.

Grammar:
The claim that Paul is contrasting baptism with the gospel is false.  The verse makes no mention of the noun “baptism”, rather it uses the verb “to baptize”.  Paul does not compare the verb “baptize” with the noun “gospel”; instead the comparison is between “baptize” and “preach”.  Nor does this verse indicate that Paul was forbidden to baptize.  The “not … but …” construction employed here is commonly found throughout the Scriptures, and it would be a mistake to insist that such a construction is intended to totally restrict the first part of the sentence.  This construction is frequently used to demonstrate the greater importance of the second part of the sentence.  A few  examples:

John 6:27 “Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life …"
Jesus does not mean that we should cease all physical labor.

Acts 5:4 “… You have not lied to men but to God."
Peter was not saying that Ananias had been truthful with him.

1 John 4:18 “My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.”
This is not a prohibition against loving speech.

Local context:
Read 1 Corinthians 1:10-17 for yourself.  The issue being dealt with here is division in the church at Corinth.  Paul uses three rhetorical questions in verse 13 to remind them that they are to be united in Christ.  The first serves to point out that Christ is not divided.  Then he asks “Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?” - these questions were clearly intended to remind them that it was Christ (not Paul, or any other person) who had been crucified for them, and in whose name they had been baptized.  Implicit in such a reminder is Paul's assumption that the Corinthians had been baptized; otherwise, his effort to correct their division would only have served to give them something else to divide over.  Paul goes on to express thanks that he “baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius” (v. 14).  Notice that he does not express any regret at having baptized these (or the household of Stephanas, v. 16), nor is there any indication that Paul had sinned in so doing.  He plainly tells us the reason for his gratitude at having baptized only a few –  that they were given no further occasion for division: “lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name” (v. 15).

Historical context:
As has already been pointed out, the text does not make a comparison between baptism and the gospel, but between the act of baptizing and the act of preaching.  So the question is not whether Paul himself baptized the Corinthians, but whether he included baptism when he preached the gospel to the Corinthians.  Acts 18:8: “Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.”  In response to Paul’s preaching the Corinthians “believed and were baptized”.  This implies that Paul did not consider including baptism in his preaching to be contrary to the message of the cross.  Otherwise, he would have refrained from preaching it, “lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect” (v. 17).

Logic:
In spite of all of this, some will cling to some variation on the notion that Paul would not have made such a statement if baptism were important.  This is a straw man argument, which only serves to distract from the truth.  No special significance is attached to the individual who performs the rite, no claim is made that you are saved by the one who baptizes you.  Indeed, if Paul’s aim were to diminish the significance of baptism, then he weakens his own argument.  After all, he appeals to their unity in Christ on two points – the crucifixion and their baptism (v. 13).  If baptism is of little importance, then Paul has here made a most uneven pairing, uncharacteristic of a writer of his skill.  I would argue that Paul has made no such blunder, but would instead appeal to the elegant symmetry that he employs – by emphasizing the crucifixion and their baptism, he reminds the Corinthians of the singular and undivided nature of Christ’s sacrifice on their behalf, and of their common connection to that sacrifice through their baptism.  To deny the importance of baptism here is to destroy Paul’s argument.

Finally, by leaving the baptizing up to others (it required no special skill), Paul could spend more time preaching, which would actually result in more baptisms than if Paul had stopped preaching in order to personally administer the rite.  It seems silly to claim that Paul deemphasized the importance of baptism by virtue of pursuing a course of action that would have resulted in more baptisms, not fewer.
Very clear. Thank you.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #185 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 13:07:23 »
Well said Opie!

Offline soterion

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #186 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 13:39:40 »
Quote
Jesus spoke these things concerning those particular men and their particular ministry. I wouldn't apply it to any others.
That was not how Peter took it that day.  Our Lord told them this:

Acts 1:4  Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me;

and on that day Peter said this to the crowd:

Acts 2:39  For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”

I see it differently.  ::smile::

In Acts 1:4 the promise is that which the Father made to the apostles earlier through Jesus about them being baptized with the Holy Spirit soon (Acts 2).

In Acts 2:39, the promise is the fulfillment of the prophecies concerning salvation through the Messiah, which Peter had just preached (as a witness according to the fulfillment of the Acts 1:4 promise).

Two different promises.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #187 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 13:59:10 »
Quote
Two different promises.

But what promise was conveyed to the crowd in Peter's sermon?

Offline grams

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #188 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 15:45:06 »
 
14

I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
 

15

Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
 

16

And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
 

17

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
 

18

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
 
 

Offline soterion

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #189 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 16:08:39 »
opie,

Good post there in reply #183.  ::smile::

+1

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #190 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 16:34:47 »
 
14
I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
 
15
Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
 
16
And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
 
17
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
 
18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
 


grams,

I'll include this comment by you from another thread:

Quote from: grams
It is in the bible all you need to do is read it !  I have given you  verses from the  bible and still , you think I am wrong.   How can a verse from the bible  be wrong?

Of course scripture is always correct. It is not as simple as just posting scripture. Scripture on certain topics are subject to various viewpoints and interpretations. Everybody will agree with the scripture you post, but not everybody agree with how you interpret it according to the particular doctrine you are promoting here.

You can quote passages all you want but that, in and of itself, does not make your doctrine right. Anybody can make a claim about some doctrine, post a few passages, and then claim to have proven their case. If that was the all-in-all of what it takes to be proven correct by anybody about anything, many debates on this site would have dried up a long time ago.

If you want to get your point across about what you are saying, so as to make yourself understood, you need to provide some explanation as to why those passages mean your view is accurate and that of those who disagree with you is wrong. It helps also to show why the passages and explanations of those who disagree with you are wrong.

By the way, posting with large fonts and increased spacing will not get your points across any better. Those kinds of posts just take up space.  ::smile::

As for the passage you quoted above from 1 Corinthians 1, opie gave a very good explanation of it in Reply #183. Check it out.  ::reading::

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #191 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 16:37:59 »
Quote
Two different promises.

But what promise was conveyed to the crowd in Peter's sermon?

I thought I answered that already. The promise of salvation in Christ.  ::smile::

If apologize if I am misunderstanding what you are asking.

Offline TruthScientist

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #192 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 23:10:43 »
Yogi - you are confusing the indwelling Spirit with the Spirit Upon. 

Baptism in the Holy Spirit is Spirit Upon and happened to the apostles in Acts 2. 
The indwelling Spirit had already occured in John 20.

Part of the "Promise" Peter referenced was in his quote of Joel 2: "I will pour out of my Spirit on all flesh ... your sons and daughters shall prophesy ..."

And Our Lord called that "baptism in the Holy Spirit."

What difference did you feel in these two events DaveW...  what difference in your life can you express to us that happened with you

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #193 on: Sat Jul 19, 2014 - 04:35:58 »
No I think the problem came with the Reformers. I agree with very little of Catholic teaching, especially infant baptism.

Good morning Jamie~where do you believe the Reformers came from?  Most, if not all, came from Catholicism.  That's where they were taught infant baptism.  Once a person are taught a certain doctrine, it is almost impossible for them to overcome those teachings and to rid themselves of all that they were taught.  Some escape unharmed, but very few. The good thing about myself, is that I was never brought up in a religion/faith~exposed yes, taught and practiced? No.

Yes they did come from Catholicism and their battle against Rome on the infant baptism issue was correct. But especially Zwingli's position on baptism as only a symbol wa not in my opinion. Luther and some others believed as the
 apostles believed and practiced according to what I have read, but their followers were later influenced by Calvin in he pendumlum overswing on the sovereignty of man vs free will.

Brother, You have not read very much on what Luther and Calvin believed, which I can tell by reading your post.  All of the Reformers and many afterwards never departed  form Rome of infant baptism.  Even the powerful and spiritual mind of Jonathan Edwards taught it as well. 

Quote
but their followers were later influenced by Calvin in he pendumlum overswing on the sovereignty of man vs free will.

Again brother you are wrong.  Luther who was just before Calvin and many before him taught God's sovereignty, and man's bondage of his will to sin and the devil.  Luther has a book devoted to that very subject, and spoken with so much more force than Calvin ever did.  Luther was very bold and forthwith in his speech~he never minced his words, but was much like John the Baptist, and did not mind calling  a man what he was.  Calvin was much more polished, but straight forward nevertheless.   But before these men, there was Augustine just after the apostle, whom both Luther and Calvin learned from and respected, and deserving so.  Yet these men, just like us, had error mixed with truth!  There are many men and women that the world has never heard of, yet I believed were more taught of God than these men.  Ever heard of Samuel Richardson? He lived shorty after Calvin.  He has an article on "Justification by faith" so much more light than either Calvin or Luther had. 
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 19, 2014 - 07:17:30 by Red Baker »

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #194 on: Sat Jul 19, 2014 - 05:09:41 »
As has already been pointed out, the text does not make a comparison between baptism and the gospel, but between the act of baptizing and the act of preaching. 

I will spend some time tomorrow answering this post, a post that deserves to be answer.

What I highlighted, would, I believe fall under what is known as Doublespeak~language that deliberately disguises, distorts, or reverses the meaning of words.  Doublespeak is most closely associated with political language, used by politicians.

What is really important in the world of doublespeak is the ability to lie, whether knowingly or unconsciously, (here I believe unconsciously) and to get away with it; and the ability to use lies and choose and shape facts selectively, blocking out those that don’t fit an agenda or program.

In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defence of the indefensible… Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness… the great enemy of clear language is insincerity. Where there is a gap between one's real and one's declared aims, one turns as it were instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms!

Tomorrow.....
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 19, 2014 - 05:24:38 by Red Baker »

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #195 on: Sat Jul 19, 2014 - 05:19:21 »
Red,
Jesus' baptism to me has nothing to do with why we get baptized per se', but I have found it interesting that Jesus did no miracles prior to the Spirit lighting on him as a dove at his baptism. He later scolded the Pharisees for accusing him of doing miracles by the power of Beelzebub, telling them basically that blaspheming the son is one thing, but Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is another. Clearly indicating that he did his miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit. Patterning for us the power that lies available to us if we only allowed it and trusted in it.

Thank you Jaime for your post concerning my question, even though you never addressed the question.  I would desire for other coc to at least give me their opinion as to "why Jesus was baptized" before I give my understanding.  Surely, this question has been addressed a few times within the coc meetings in the last two hundred years since starting out.

I agree that Jesus did no miracles until he was baptized, and begin his journey to Calvary, and from there, to David's throne at the right hand of the Majesty on high.   

Quote
Patterning for us the power that lies available to us if we only allowed it and trusted in it.

It is by faith in the scriptures that we come to understand/know what we have available for us, under the new covenant provided for us by a gift from Jesus' Father, as one of the promises of the new covenant, which was sealed by the blood of the Son of God.
 

I am still waiting for someone from the coc to answer my question: "Why was Jesus Baptized?"   I am beginning to know how Jesus felt when he ask the Pharisees if John's baptism were of men or from heaven.  They thought and knew if they gave an answer either way it would not serve their interest to answer it, so they refused to answer Christ.  Truth does not run and hide.   If you have an answer you would be quick to answer~ this I know
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 19, 2014 - 05:23:41 by Red Baker »

Offline opie

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #196 on: Sat Jul 19, 2014 - 07:57:55 »
As has already been pointed out, the text does not make a comparison between baptism and the gospel, but between the act of baptizing and the act of preaching. 

I will spend some time tomorrow answering this post, a post that deserves to be answer.

What I highlighted, would, I believe fall under what is known as Doublespeak~language that deliberately disguises, distorts, or reverses the meaning of words.  Doublespeak is most closely associated with political language, used by politicians.

What is really important in the world of doublespeak is the ability to lie, whether knowingly or unconsciously, (here I believe unconsciously) and to get away with it; and the ability to use lies and choose and shape facts selectively, blocking out those that don’t fit an agenda or program.

In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defence of the indefensible… Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness… the great enemy of clear language is insincerity. Where there is a gap between one's real and one's declared aims, one turns as it were instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms!

Tomorrow.....

Oh, the irony of it all. 

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #197 on: Sat Jul 19, 2014 - 09:27:00 »
Red,
Jesus' baptism to me has nothing to do with why we get baptized per se', but I have found it interesting that Jesus did no miracles prior to the Spirit lighting on him as a dove at his baptism. He later scolded the Pharisees for accusing him of doing miracles by the power of Beelzebub, telling them basically that blaspheming the son is one thing, but Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is another. Clearly indicating that he did his miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit. Patterning for us the power that lies available to us if we only allowed it and trusted in it.

Thank you Jaime for your post concerning my question, even though you never addressed the question.  I would desire for other coc to at least give me their opinion as to "why Jesus was baptized" before I give my understanding.  Surely, this question has been addressed a few times within the coc meetings in the last two hundred years since starting out.

I agree that Jesus did no miracles until he was baptized, and begin his journey to Calvary, and from there, to David's throne at the right hand of the Majesty on high.   

Quote
Patterning for us the power that lies available to us if we only allowed it and trusted in it.

It is by faith in the scriptures that we come to understand/know what we have available for us, under the new covenant provided for us by a gift from Jesus' Father, as one of the promises of the new covenant, which was sealed by the blood of the Son of God.
 

I am still waiting for someone from the coc to answer my question: "Why was Jesus Baptized?"   I am beginning to know how Jesus felt when he ask the Pharisees if John's baptism were of men or from heaven.  They thought and knew if they gave an answer either way it would not serve their interest to answer it, so they refused to answer Christ.  Truth does not run and hide.   If you have an answer you would be quick to answer~ this I know!
Red as I told you before we are selective at these discussions and we feel that your request is just an attempt to belittle the coc and puff yourself up so please if you have an opinion just state it. We have answered as did Jesus which was to fulfill all righteousness if that is not what you want then just go ahead and state your opinion. We know you have it all figured out and in your eyes you are the only one that does so Please just let us have it.

Offline opie

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #198 on: Sat Jul 19, 2014 - 09:54:37 »
As has already been pointed out, the text does not make a comparison between baptism and the gospel, but between the act of baptizing and the act of preaching. 

I will spend some time tomorrow answering this post, a post that deserves to be answer.

What I highlighted, would, I believe fall under what is known as Doublespeak~language that deliberately disguises, distorts, or reverses the meaning of words.  Doublespeak is most closely associated with political language, used by politicians.

What is really important in the world of doublespeak is the ability to lie, whether knowingly or unconsciously, (here I believe unconsciously) and to get away with it; and the ability to use lies and choose and shape facts selectively, blocking out those that don’t fit an agenda or program.

In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defence of the indefensible… Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness… the great enemy of clear language is insincerity. Where there is a gap between one's real and one's declared aims, one turns as it were instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms!

Tomorrow.....

And will you be plagiarizing more of George Orwell's work tomorrow?

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #199 on: Sat Jul 19, 2014 - 15:33:54 »
As has already been pointed out, the text does not make a comparison between baptism and the gospel, but between the act of baptizing and the act of preaching. 

I will spend some time tomorrow answering this post, a post that deserves to be answer.

What I highlighted, would, I believe fall under what is known as Doublespeak~language that deliberately disguises, distorts, or reverses the meaning of words.  Doublespeak is most closely associated with political language, used by politicians.

What is really important in the world of doublespeak is the ability to lie, whether knowingly or unconsciously, (here I believe unconsciously) and to get away with it; and the ability to use lies and choose and shape facts selectively, blocking out those that don’t fit an agenda or program.

In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defence of the indefensible… Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness… the great enemy of clear language is insincerity. Where there is a gap between one's real and one's declared aims, one turns as it were instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms!

Tomorrow.....

And will you be plagiarizing more of George Orwell's work tomorrow?

Good, you know whom I have read behind and used, to exposed people like you.  No, tomorrow I will use the scriptures to show you cunning craftiness.

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #200 on: Sat Jul 19, 2014 - 15:50:05 »
Red,
Jesus' baptism to me has nothing to do with why we get baptized per se', but I have found it interesting that Jesus did no miracles prior to the Spirit lighting on him as a dove at his baptism. He later scolded the Pharisees for accusing him of doing miracles by the power of Beelzebub, telling them basically that blaspheming the son is one thing, but Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is another. Clearly indicating that he did his miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit. Patterning for us the power that lies available to us if we only allowed it and trusted in it.

Thank you Jaime for your post concerning my question, even though you never addressed the question.  I would desire for other coc to at least give me their opinion as to "why Jesus was baptized" before I give my understanding.  Surely, this question has been addressed a few times within the coc meetings in the last two hundred years since starting out.

I agree that Jesus did no miracles until he was baptized, and begin his journey to Calvary, and from there, to David's throne at the right hand of the Majesty on high.   

Quote
Patterning for us the power that lies available to us if we only allowed it and trusted in it.

It is by faith in the scriptures that we come to understand/know what we have available for us, under the new covenant provided for us by a gift from Jesus' Father, as one of the promises of the new covenant, which was sealed by the blood of the Son of God.
 

I am still waiting for someone from the coc to answer my question: "Why was Jesus Baptized?"   I am beginning to know how Jesus felt when he ask the Pharisees if John's baptism were of men or from heaven.  They thought and knew if they gave an answer either way it would not serve their interest to answer it, so they refused to answer Christ.  Truth does not run and hide.   If you have an answer you would be quick to answer~ this I know!
Red as I told you before we are selective at these discussions and we feel that your request is just an attempt to belittle the coc and puff yourself up so please if you have an opinion just state it. We have answered as did Jesus which was to fulfill all righteousness if that is not what you want then just go ahead and state your opinion. We know you have it all figured out and in your eyes you are the only one that does so Please just let us have it.

But in what sense was Jesus talking of?  The purpose of his baptism you men are running from, and for a good reason.

Quote
Red as I told you before we are selective at these discussions

Oh, I know that to be true!  You men go after the weaker sheep, to convert to your religion, but so do others.  Why not just defend the truth against all men who you believe are holding to errors?

Quote
we feel that your request is just an attempt to belittle the coc and puff yourself up

Yogi, that's not so.  God is my witness.  I truly have a lot of respect for many people of the coc, much more than the Baptist, from whom I came from~  At least many coc people know their bibles better and are willing to defend what they believe much more than most.  Nevertheless, when you are backed into the corner, you stop fighting, and run for cover.  I like Jamie and you, even though we have never met.  Nothing personal Yogi, nor is it for pride, as you surmised, but for God's truth~ again, God is my witness, between you and me. 

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #201 on: Mon Jul 21, 2014 - 06:05:26 »
Quote
Two different promises.
But what promise was conveyed to the crowd in Peter's sermon?
I thought I answered that already. The promise of salvation in Christ.  ::smile::
If apologize if I am misunderstanding what you are asking.

Peter was an observant Jew talking to other observant Jews.  "Salvation in Christ" was not anything an observant Jew would be looking for or even understand if it was outright stated. Peter was using the events of the day, the day itself to explain what was going on.

Let me set the scene.  It was Shavuot (pentecost) which was a celebration of First Fruits of the Wheat harvest.  It was also considered the anniversary of God giving the 10 commandments from atop Sinai.  God came down, fire and smoke covered the mountain.  God speaks the words of the Covenant (according to legend in 70 languages due to the "mixed multitude") and the nation of Israel is formed.   

So these observant Jews had just heard that story and they see flames coming down on top of the Temple Mount (only place big enough to hold all those people) and land on about 120 of the worshippers there in the Temple of the Lord. (commonly called "the House") they start talking in all kinds of languages. 

They ask so Peter explains from Joel:  "I will pour out my Spirit on all mankind - your sons and daughters shall prophesy..." So to that mindset and set of events - what would you think was understood as a "Promise?"

The outpouring of the Spirit.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #202 on: Mon Jul 21, 2014 - 06:11:15 »
Yogi - you are confusing the indwelling Spirit with the Spirit Upon. 

Baptism in the Holy Spirit is Spirit Upon and happened to the apostles in Acts 2. 
The indwelling Spirit had already occured in John 20.

Part of the "Promise" Peter referenced was in his quote of Joel 2: "I will pour out of my Spirit on all flesh ... your sons and daughters shall prophesy ..."

And Our Lord called that "baptism in the Holy Spirit."

What difference did you feel in these two events DaveW...  what difference in your life can you express to us that happened with you

The difference between Spirit Within and Spirit Upon is clear both in scripture and in peoples' lives if you properly understand and see the difference.

"Within" is for growing in godly character - fruit - wisdom - love - etc.  while "upon" is for acts of supernatural power.  Visions, prophesy, healing and deliverances from demonic attanchments. 

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #203 on: Tue Jul 22, 2014 - 05:39:02 »
Gala.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
 

24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
 
Eph. 1:
13

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
 

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #204 on: Tue Jul 22, 2014 - 12:36:16 »
Gala.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
 

24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
 
Eph. 1:
13

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Grams I took this from your post you can see it yourself I am not adding but highlighting what you over look.

Quote
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Now ask your self when, how,and where were they baptized into Christ?? For this according to Paul from the passage you chose is how they put on Christ.

Do not pass over this statement by Paul and dismiss it as nothing but tell me whenm howm and why was this baptism done. Is it drym waterm spiritualm or water and spirit, the one baptism of Eph 4, the one of Acts 2:38, just what is Paul talking about when he said "for as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 22, 2014 - 12:39:34 by yogi bear »

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #205 on: Tue Jul 22, 2014 - 14:03:23 »
Grams I took this from your post you can see it yourself I am not adding but highlighting what you over look.

Quote
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Now ask your self when, how,and where were they baptized into Christ?? For this according to Paul from the passage you chose is how they put on Christ.

Do not pass over this statement by Paul and dismiss it as nothing but tell me whenm howm and why was this baptism done. Is it drym waterm spiritualm or water and spirit, the one baptism of Eph 4, the one of Acts 2:38, just what is Paul talking about when he said "for as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

It is:
Quote
water and spirit, the one baptism of Eph 4, the one of Acts 2:38"

But, Yogi, only those whose conscience has been made pure and good, are ones that are fit subjects for water baptism, even as John the Baptist said:

Matthew 3:8

"Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:"

And we know from Paul's testimony that John's baptism differ from his in name only, not with, or for a different purpose. Acts 19:4 And we will add, that only those whom God has given another heart, can and would bring forth fruits worthy of repentance. Men still under the power of their natural flesh cannot please God, impossible. Romans 8:8

« Last Edit: Tue Jul 22, 2014 - 14:05:36 by Red Baker »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #206 on: Tue Jul 22, 2014 - 14:24:24 »
 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. Acts 19:4 (KJV)

 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.(in reference to Acts 2:38) Acts 19:5 (KJV)

Now ask yourself what is the difference in Johns baptism and that that Jesus baptized with (the one in His name)? Scripture will reveal that Johns did not and could not give the spirit because Jesus had not been glorified as of yet while as the one Jesus baptized with (Acts:28) did give the spirit. That is why Paul did baptism them in the baptism in Christ name (the baptism that Jesus baptized with giving the spirit) for the one of John was obsolete and replaced with the one in Christ name.

So now the baptism in Christ name(Acts 2:38 is both water and spirit for it is where the spirit does the transforming work of changing the old man of sin into the new life with Christ see Romans 6

Yes faith comes first no doubt but according to scripture it is in the baptism in Christ name that sin is remitted and the spirit of promise given see Acts 2:38 Romans 6:3ff Colossians 2 and the list goes on even in this part of Acts 19 you referenced.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #207 on: Tue Jul 22, 2014 - 14:27:45 »
P.S.  You failed to answer this question.

Now ask your self when, how,and where were they baptized into Christ??

The text Grams gave said that they were baptized into Christ so please deal with this just how did this come about? Just what does it mean?

If you are saying that this baptized into Christ is by belief with out water (dry as some say) then you need to prove it. the follow does not follow scriptural teaching on baptism

 only those whose conscience has been made pure and good, are ones that are fit subjects for water baptism,

Scripture states that it is for the remission of sin and giving of the spirit Acts 2:38 and Romans 6:3ff plus others so you have a conflict with that view don't you?
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 22, 2014 - 14:32:02 by yogi bear »

Offline AnthonyB

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #208 on: Tue Jul 22, 2014 - 14:34:51 »
Red Baker,

Here is my answer to why Jesus was baptised but I think even if I handed you a blue piece of paper you would respond that it was red.

My thoughts on this is to some degree influenced by NT Wright's analysis in his recent series of books on Jesus and Paul.

Jesus was brought up with the Jewish stories that echoed within the community, that retold through the religious ceremonies and festivals. A community that, although returned from exile in some sense, still longed for fulfilment of the promises of God and the great themes of redemption, kingdom establishment, a gathering of the people of God into all of his promises.

Jesus personalized those themes to himself, redemption was found in him, he would suffer for the redeemed people, he was the new law giver. In his ministry he uses the themes from the great Jewish stories to highlight his personification of Israel's redemption within himself. The sermon on the mount is his giving of the law, his death is the destruction of temple, he multiplies bread and fish to a multitude like the provision of manna and quail. He went ahead of his people, and in following Him was the Way to redemption.

His baptism could then be seen as him passing through the Red Sea like Moses, but in Jesus case ahead of his people. It was His inauguration of the new exodus of the people of God. It is after that inauguration that he calls his first disciples. Whereas our baptism is our identification of joining the people of God, and Jesus becoming our mediator. I clearly see this the beginning of our being part of the redeemed people that Jesus was calling out. But like Moses hadn't lived in physical captivity, Jesus was not in spiritual captivity. However like the Israelites lived in physical captivity, we live in spiritual captivity. In passing through the waters we leave spiritual captivity and identify with Jesus as the new people of God that he is calling to follow Himself.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 22, 2014 - 14:47:15 by AnthonyB »

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #209 on: Wed Jul 23, 2014 - 04:42:18 »
YB  says......

Grams I took this from your post you can see it yourself I am not adding but highlighting what you over look.



Quote

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ  have put on Christ.

*************************

What it means is we did  nothing !    It was given to us upon belief !

We have it all !

No more works ..
That was then !
This is now !
Upon belief we have it all !
As long as we do understand what God is telling us !  And have faith and believe

 

     
anything