Author Topic: Dunked in the Water  (Read 6470 times)

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Offline soterion

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #70 on: Wed Jul 16, 2014 - 22:30:52 »
By your own words you are working for your salvation.

You said: Who is the Spirit given to?  Those who do what?

Salvation comes from within a man, it's a free gift, not anything he can do on the outside. How many times does Paul tell us this?

Baptism is not from within. It has been misunderstood and results in man working for his salvation.


Not my words, God's word. The word "obey" is hard to deal with, isn't it?

Salvation does not come from within a man, it comes from God and God can command whatever response of faith He wants from man. You can argue and twist scripture all you want, but it does not change what they say.

As for salvation being a free gift, I wholeheartedly agree. No doubt you are thinking of Ephesians 2:8-9. Sorry, that passage cannot be used to negate what God says elsewhere about baptism:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/grace-and-works-in-ephesians-21-10/msg1054914807/#msg1054914807

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #70 on: Wed Jul 16, 2014 - 22:30:52 »

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #71 on: Wed Jul 16, 2014 - 22:49:20 »
By your own words you are working for your salvation.

You said: Who is the Spirit given to?  Those who do what?

Salvation comes from within a man, it's a free gift, not anything he can do on the outside. How many times does Paul tell us this?

Baptism is not from within. It has been misunderstood and results in man working for his salvation.



Not my words, God's word. The word "obey" is hard to deal with, isn't it?

Salvation does not come from within a man, it comes from God and God can command whatever response of faith He wants from man. You can argue and twist scripture all you want, but it does not change what they say.

As for salvation being a free gift, I wholeheartedly agree. No doubt you are thinking of Ephesians 2:8-9. Sorry, that passage cannot be used to negate what God says elsewhere about baptism:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/grace-and-works-in-ephesians-21-10/msg1054914807/#msg1054914807

You plainly said salvation does not come from within a man.

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. Rom 10:9-10

The word "obey" is not hard to deal with when properly placed to it's correct intent.
We are commanded by God to believe in His Son.
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12
The word "obey" comes after salvation and baptism is the first act in obeying. Prior to this it is impossible to obey God.


Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #72 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 05:00:04 »
Charlie, what did the 3000 receive in Acts 2:38 upon repentance and baptism? Yes, rissiomnof sin and the gidt of the Holy Spirit. This IS a scripture that links the gift of the Holy spirit with repentance and baptism, sorry.
No Jaime, they received it upon repentance and then were baptized.

vs. 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized.
It says they received his word/message and then were baptized.  It doesn't say they received his salvation and then were baptized.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #72 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 05:00:04 »

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #73 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 05:03:20 »
Matthew 3:13-17

Mark 1:9-11

Luke 3:21-23


13. Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan to John, that he might be baptized by him. 14. But John forbade him, saying, I have need to be baptized by thee, and dost thou come to me? 15. And Jesus answering said to him, Suffer it now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffers him. 16. And Jesus, having been baptized, went up immediately from the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him. 17. And, lo, a voice from heaven, saying, This is my be loved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

9. And it happened in those days, Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in Jordan. 10. And immediately, when he was going up out of the water, he saw the heavens cleft assunder, and the Spirit descending as a dove, upon him. 11. And a voice came from heaven, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

21. And it happened, that, while all the people were being baptized,  when Jesus had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, 22. And that the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily appearance, as a dove, upon him, and a voice came from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son: in thee I am well pleased. 23. And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age.


Let me ask some this question: "Why was Jesus Baptized"?  Please do not just say~for thus it became him to fulfill all righteousness. It is much more extensive, than to leave it with those words, for one has not really explained the purpose of Jesus' baptism by only saying those words.  Was Jesus' baptism for a different purpose than ours?  Or, the same? Waiting for some answers.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #73 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 05:03:20 »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #74 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 05:10:20 »
I agree with everyone who said this... in so many words...

Salvation happens in a moment, at the moment you repent of your sins, and receive Jesus as Savior and his blood covering for our sins. That moment is Salvation.

And then, Baptism is an act of obedience after the moment of Salvation, we are saved and then after, we are baptized.  Our first chosen act after receiving Christ, is to be baptized.

 ::tippinghat::
The method of receiving Christ as Savior is not written in the Bible.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #74 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 05:10:20 »



Offline DaveW

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #75 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 05:17:13 »
Mirror this to baptism, which in the NT when adressed to an individual new believer is almost always in the passive voice, "be baptised"  (the exception is Ananias to Paul, where it is middle voice). The language is "I was baptised". If you used baptism in the active sense ( I baptised) then we would generally understand that you baptised someone else not that you were commenting on your own baptism. It is clearly something you receive, not something you do.

Thank you.  As I have been posting here for months - the COMMAND to baptize is NOT incumbant on the new believer. Rather it is on the one who brings the gospel.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #75 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 05:17:13 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #76 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 05:20:09 »
Wouldn't that be in direct opposition to Eph. 1:13? Paul said we receive the seal of the Holy Spirit when we believe not at baptism.

No where in scripture does it even hint that we receive the Holy Spirit at baptism.

If you think this because the Holy Spirit came on Jesus when He was baptized, Jesus didn't receive the Holy Spirit to be born into the family of God, He was God.

Scripture assumes that belief and baptism are pretty much simultaneous. It is the modern church that has seperated the 2, thus leading to this dichotomy of opinion on what does what.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #77 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 05:21:37 »
Baptism is connected to repentance because repentance comes from within.
Correct, because repentance & baptism are for forgiveness of sins - Acts 2:38.

Quote
Salvation comes from within the heart. Baptism is connected because it is the outward profession of your faith. You are publicly calling on Christ as you just did on the inside.
Baptism is nothing of the kind. There is no scripture for this.  When this is revealed as non-Biblical, no one ever seems to continue.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #78 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 05:24:41 »
Wouldn't that be in direct opposition to Eph. 1:13? Paul said we receive the seal of the Holy Spirit when we believe not at baptism.

No where in scripture does it even hint that we receive the Holy Spirit at baptism.

If you think this because the Holy Spirit came on Jesus when He was baptized, Jesus didn't receive the Holy Spirit to be born into the family of God, He was God.

Scripture assumes that belief and baptism are pretty much simultaneous. It is the modern church that has seperated the 2, thus leading to this dichotomy of opinion on what does what.
Agreed.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #78 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 05:24:41 »

Offline grams

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #79 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 05:54:34 »
     I do pray you can understand this !

 Eph.3:

 1
 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
 2
 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:


 3
 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
 4
 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
 5
 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

 6
 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

 eph. 4

 4
 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

 5
 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

 Col.1:

 26
 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
 27
 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

 Col:2
 10
 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
 11
 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
 12
 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.


       14

 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

 ll 2: Tim.

 15

 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 

   
[/b]

Offline Jaime

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #80 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 06:03:56 »
Wouldn't that be in direct opposition to Eph. 1:13? Paul said we receive the seal of the Holy Spirit when we believe not at baptism.

No where in scripture does it even hint that we receive the Holy Spirit at baptism.

If you think this because the Holy Spirit came on Jesus when He was baptized, Jesus didn't receive the Holy Spirit to be born into the family of God, He was God.

Scripture assumes that belief and baptism are pretty much simultaneous. It is the modern church that has seperated the 2, thus leading to this dichotomy of opinion on what does what.
Agreed.

Absolutely agree. The modern dichotomy would stun the first century folks in my opinion. It would be like trying to separate pain from childbirth. When the folks in the NT accepted Christ in their hearts they pretty much simultaneously put on Christ in baptism. That's the way I looked at it. My entire faith response of belief and acceptance, repentance, confessing with my lips that he is Lord and neing baptized was my salvation experience, not experienceS. It was one continuous seemless event in my mind and in my Spirit, as I understood the salvation examples in the NT.

I'm not sure if it is a sheep and goat thing Charlie. BAAAAAA

Offline DaveW

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #81 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 06:16:00 »
Grams - what I understand is you hve been lied to. And you are now trying to spread those same lies to us.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #82 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 06:28:33 »
Wouldn't that be in direct opposition to Eph. 1:13? Paul said we  the seal of the Holy Spirit when we believe not at baptism.

No where in scripture does it even hint that we receive the Holy Spirit at baptism.

If you think this because the Holy Spirit came on Jesus when He was baptized, Jesus didn't receive the Holy Spirit to be born into the family of God, He was God.

Looking at passages that only mention "believe" and leaving out what is found in other passages results in a buffet style doctrine.  For example, if I look only to Titus 3:4-7 I could claim that I do not have to have faith in Christ to be saved, since faith is not specifically mentioned.  If I look only to James 2:14-26 concerning justification, then I could conclude that Jesus has nothing to do with my being justified, since His name is not specifically mentioned in that context.

All of those would be false conclusions, just as looking at only passages that mention "believe" and do not mention what is found in other passages would result in false conclusions. This is particularly true if you read the word "believe" as meaning an initial nonactive mental acknowledgement to God from the heart. However, scripture does not define it this way in every context.

Keep in mind that the Ephesian passage does not say, "...when you initially believed before doing anything else," or, "...without baptism," or anything else like that. It just says, "...having also believed..." So, what does it mean that they believed? Looking at Ephesians 1:13-14 along with other passages tells me that I was considered a believer when I repented and confessed the name of Jesus as my Lord and Savior, as well as received baptism.  Believing includes doing what God says to do unto salvation, in all the various passages He says these things to us.

Here is another passage to consider: Acts 5:32.
"And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey him."

Who is the Spirit given to?  Those who do what?

Apply Acts 2:38 and 5:32 to Ephesians 1:13. The Ephesians believed how? It was this kind of believing that resulted in their receiving the Spirit as the seal of their inheritance in Christ.

Quote
No Jaime, they received it upon repentance and then were baptized.

By the way, Peter preached in Acts 2 that the people were to repent and be immersed in the name of Jesus Christ unto the forgiveness of their sins, and they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. You have a problem with the word "and" in these particular contexts, but it still connects the two mentioned requirements to be observed prior to receiving the promised blessing stated afterwards. Changing the order of what is said is simply a gross mishandling of the scripture.
Matthew 3:13-17

Mark 1:9-11

Luke 3:21-23


13. Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan to John, that he might be baptized by him. 14. But John forbade him, saying, I have need to be baptized by thee, and dost thou come to me? 15. And Jesus answering said to him, Suffer it now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffers him. 16. And Jesus, having been baptized, went up immediately from the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him. 17. And, lo, a voice from heaven, saying, This is my be loved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

9. And it happened in those days, Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in Jordan. 10. And immediately, when he was going up out of the water, he saw the heavens cleft assunder, and the Spirit descending as a dove, upon him. 11. And a voice came from heaven, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

21. And it happened, that, while all the people were being baptized,  when Jesus had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, 22. And that the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily appearance, as a dove, upon him, and a voice came from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son: in thee I am well pleased. 23. And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age.


Let me ask some this question: "Why was Jesus Baptized"?  Please do not just say~for thus it became him to fulfill all righteousness. It is much more extensive, than to leave it with those words, for one has not really explained the purpose of Jesus' baptism by only saying those words.  Was Jesus' baptism for a different purpose than ours?  Or, the same? Waiting for some answers.
I can say that much. Jesus's baptism is different in two different respects. Everyone else who was coming to be baptized that day was in relation to their sin. Jesus had no sin. Secondly, John's baptism ended and baptism in Jesus's name later took over Acts 2:38, 19:1-5. Baptism in Jesus's name is what we're under now.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #83 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 06:32:38 »
Wouldn't that be in direct opposition to Eph. 1:13? Paul said we receive the seal of the Holy Spirit when we believe not at baptism.

No where in scripture does it even hint that we receive the Holy Spirit at baptism.

If you think this because the Holy Spirit came on Jesus when He was baptized, Jesus didn't receive the Holy Spirit to be born into the family of God, He was God.

Scripture assumes that belief and baptism are pretty much simultaneous. It is the modern church that has seperated the 2, thus leading to this dichotomy of opinion on what does what.
Agreed.

Absolutely agree. The modern dichotomy would stun the first century folks in my opinion. It would be like trying to separate pain from childbirth. When the folks in the NT accepted Christ in their hearts they pretty much simultaneously put on Christ in baptism. That's the way I looked at it. My entire faith response of belief and acceptance, repentance, confessing with my lips that he is Lord and neing baptized was my salvation experience, not experienceS. It was one continuous seemless event in my mind and in my Spirit, as I understood the salvation examples in the NT.

I'm not sure if it is a sheep and goat thing Charlie. BAAAAAA
I agree. The seamlessness is reflected in verses like
Galatians 3:26-27 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, [27] for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Offline soterion

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #84 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 07:14:18 »
You plainly said salvation does not come from within a man.

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. Rom 10:9-10

The word "obey" is not hard to deal with when properly placed to it's correct intent.
We are commanded by God to believe in His Son.
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12
The word "obey" comes after salvation and baptism is the first act in obeying. Prior to this it is impossible to obey God.

Honestly, if you want to promote the idea that "believed" in Ephesians 1:13 comes before any possible active response, then you just conflicted with Romans 10:9-10. The Ephesians were sealed with the Spirit prior to confessing Jesus with the mouth?

Every time you try to hang your hat on a "believe" passage without understanding what it is saying in light of other scripture, you end up conflicting with other scripture. You do this repeatedly.

You even posted an article by somebody who supported what you believe about baptism, but he at the same time and by the exact same passages and methods, shot down what you believe about confessing Jesus. You can't seem to see the inconsistencies in what you post in these discussions.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #85 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 11:09:11 »
Wouldn't that be in direct opposition to Eph. 1:13? Paul said we receive the seal of the Holy Spirit when we believe not at baptism.

No where in scripture does it even hint that we receive the Holy Spirit at baptism.

If you think this because the Holy Spirit came on Jesus when He was baptized, Jesus didn't receive the Holy Spirit to be born into the family of God, He was God.

Scripture assumes that belief and baptism are pretty much simultaneous. It is the modern church that has seperated the 2, thus leading to this dichotomy of opinion on what does what.
Agreed.

Absolutely agree. The modern dichotomy would stun the first century folks in my opinion. It would be like trying to separate pain from childbirth. When the folks in the NT accepted Christ in their hearts they pretty much simultaneously put on Christ in baptism. That's the way I looked at it. My entire faith response of belief and acceptance, repentance, confessing with my lips that he is Lord and neing baptized was my salvation experience, not experienceS. It was one continuous seemless event in my mind and in my Spirit, as I understood the salvation examples in the NT.

I'm not sure if it is a sheep and goat thing Charlie. BAAAAAA

All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.… Matt. 25:32-34

I think the bottom line is a sheep and goats thing.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #86 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 11:29:59 »
You plainly said salvation does not come from within a man.

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. Rom 10:9-10

The word "obey" is not hard to deal with when properly placed to it's correct intent.
We are commanded by God to believe in His Son.
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12
The word "obey" comes after salvation and baptism is the first act in obeying. Prior to this it is impossible to obey God.

Honestly, if you want to promote the idea that "believed" in Ephesians 1:13 comes before any possible active response, then you just conflicted with Romans 10:9-10. The Ephesians were sealed with the Spirit prior to confessing Jesus with the mouth?

Every time you try to hang your hat on a "believe" passage without understanding what it is saying in light of other scripture, you end up conflicting with other scripture. You do this repeatedly.

You even posted an article by somebody who supported what you believe about baptism, but he at the same time and by the exact same passages and methods, shot down what you believe about confessing Jesus. You can't seem to see the inconsistencies in what you post in these discussions.
Soterion you are very confused concerning scripture. You should learn from Jaime, I disagree on some things with him but he knows scripture.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #87 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 11:44:42 »
You plainly said salvation does not come from within a man.

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. Rom 10:9-10

The word "obey" is not hard to deal with when properly placed to it's correct intent.
We are commanded by God to believe in His Son.
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12
The word "obey" comes after salvation and baptism is the first act in obeying. Prior to this it is impossible to obey God.

Honestly, if you want to promote the idea that "believed" in Ephesians 1:13 comes before any possible active response, then you just conflicted with Romans 10:9-10. The Ephesians were sealed with the Spirit prior to confessing Jesus with the mouth?

Every time you try to hang your hat on a "believe" passage without understanding what it is saying in light of other scripture, you end up conflicting with other scripture. You do this repeatedly.

You even posted an article by somebody who supported what you believe about baptism, but he at the same time and by the exact same passages and methods, shot down what you believe about confessing Jesus. You can't seem to see the inconsistencies in what you post in these discussions.
Maybe Charlie24 believes that "believe" automatically includes confessing Jesus as Lord. If that is the case, I would say it automatically includes baptism as well.
Not to mention that Paul, wrote Romans 10:0-10, had believed and confessed Jesus as Lord -Acts 22:8,10 and yet his sins were still not washed away -Acts 22:16.
Lastly, Paul was writing to the Roman Church, not teaching Christians the whole of how one is saved, but going over a piece of it. Paul's own conversion does not support belief and confession only.
« Last Edit: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 11:47:26 by e.r.m. »

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #88 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 11:54:57 »
You plainly said salvation does not come from within a man.

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. Rom 10:9-10

The word "obey" is not hard to deal with when properly placed to it's correct intent.
We are commanded by God to believe in His Son.
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12
The word "obey" comes after salvation and baptism is the first act in obeying. Prior to this it is impossible to obey God.

Honestly, if you want to promote the idea that "believed" in Ephesians 1:13 comes before any possible active response, then you just conflicted with Romans 10:9-10. The Ephesians were sealed with the Spirit prior to confessing Jesus with the mouth?

Every time you try to hang your hat on a "believe" passage without understanding what it is saying in light of other scripture, you end up conflicting with other scripture. You do this repeatedly.

You even posted an article by somebody who supported what you believe about baptism, but he at the same time and by the exact same passages and methods, shot down what you believe about confessing Jesus. You can't seem to see the inconsistencies in what you post in these discussions.
Maybe Charlie24 believes that "believe" automatically includes confessing Jesus as Lord. If that is the case, I would say it automatically includes baptism as well.
Not to mention that Paul, wrote Romans 10:0-10, had believed and confessed Jesus as Lord -Acts 22:8,10 and yet his sins were still not washed away -Acts 22:16.
Lastly, Paul was writing to the Roman Church, not teaching Christians the whole of how one is saved, but going over a piece of it. Paul's own conversion does not support belief and confession only.
So Paul only preached "a piece of the Gospel." That's amazing erm. Your vast knowledge of scripture is overwhelming. I never realized Paul was only given part of the Gospel.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #89 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 12:00:52 »
Wouldn't that be in direct opposition to Eph. 1:13? Paul said we receive the seal of the Holy Spirit when we believe not at baptism.

No where in scripture does it even hint that we receive the Holy Spirit at baptism.

If you think this because the Holy Spirit came on Jesus when He was baptized, Jesus didn't receive the Holy Spirit to be born into the family of God, He was God.

Scripture assumes that belief and baptism are pretty much simultaneous. It is the modern church that has seperated the 2, thus leading to this dichotomy of opinion on what does what.
Agreed.

Absolutely agree. The modern dichotomy would stun the first century folks in my opinion. It would be like trying to separate pain from childbirth. When the folks in the NT accepted Christ in their hearts they pretty much simultaneously put on Christ in baptism. That's the way I looked at it. My entire faith response of belief and acceptance, repentance, confessing with my lips that he is Lord and neing baptized was my salvation experience, not experienceS. It was one continuous seemless event in my mind and in my Spirit, as I understood the salvation examples in the NT.

I'm not sure if it is a sheep and goat thing Charlie. BAAAAAA

All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.… Matt. 25:32-34

I think the bottom line is a sheep and goats thing.

Yes, and we want to be in the right herd. I'm just not so sure the issue we have been debating so long delineates our two positions as sheep and goat. I'm not prepared to say you are a goat because you and I agree on the immediacy of baptism, we just differ on the certainty of the nano-second of the conveyance of salvation. If I lead someone to Christ and you do to, and they both truly believe and repent and confess Jesus is Lord and are immediately baptized, at the end of the day is my convert any less saved because he feels baptism is one of the necessities in our faith response than yours who was taught it has nothing to do with salvation. I would not condemn your convert to a state of damnation. Would you say the same about mine?

Offline Jaime

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #90 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 12:03:47 »
You plainly said salvation does not come from within a man.

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. Rom 10:9-10

The word "obey" is not hard to deal with when properly placed to it's correct intent.
We are commanded by God to believe in His Son.
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12
The word "obey" comes after salvation and baptism is the first act in obeying. Prior to this it is impossible to obey God.

Honestly, if you want to promote the idea that "believed" in Ephesians 1:13 comes before any possible active response, then you just conflicted with Romans 10:9-10. The Ephesians were sealed with the Spirit prior to confessing Jesus with the mouth?

Every time you try to hang your hat on a "believe" passage without understanding what it is saying in light of other scripture, you end up conflicting with other scripture. You do this repeatedly.

You even posted an article by somebody who supported what you believe about baptism, but he at the same time and by the exact same passages and methods, shot down what you believe about confessing Jesus. You can't seem to see the inconsistencies in what you post in these discussions.
Maybe Charlie24 believes that "believe" automatically includes confessing Jesus as Lord. If that is the case, I would say it automatically includes baptism as well.
Not to mention that Paul, wrote Romans 10:0-10, had believed and confessed Jesus as Lord -Acts 22:8,10 and yet his sins were still not washed away -Acts 22:16.
Lastly, Paul was writing to the Roman Church, not teaching Christians the whole of how one is saved, but going over a piece of it. Paul's own conversion does not support belief and confession only.
So Paul only preached "a piece of the Gospel." That's amazing erm. Your vast knowledge of scripture is overwhelming. I never realized Paul was only given part of the Gospel.

Why would Paul feel compelled to restate all the elemental steps. It doesn't seem incongruent to me that he spoke a lot about belief, because obviously all else hinges on belief. No need to baptize an unbeliever, or no need to get an unbeliever's confession, etc.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #91 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 12:16:33 »
Wouldn't that be in direct opposition to Eph. 1:13? Paul said we receive the seal of the Holy Spirit when we believe not at baptism.

No where in scripture does it even hint that we receive the Holy Spirit at baptism.

If you think this because the Holy Spirit came on Jesus when He was baptized, Jesus didn't receive the Holy Spirit to be born into the family of God, He was God.

Scripture assumes that belief and baptism are pretty much simultaneous. It is the modern church that has seperated the 2, thus leading to this dichotomy of opinion on what does what.
Agreed.

Absolutely agree. The modern dichotomy would stun the first century folks in my opinion. It would be like trying to separate pain from childbirth. When the folks in the NT accepted Christ in their hearts they pretty much simultaneously put on Christ in baptism. That's the way I looked at it. My entire faith response of belief and acceptance, repentance, confessing with my lips that he is Lord and neing baptized was my salvation experience, not experienceS. It was one continuous seemless event in my mind and in my Spirit, as I understood the salvation examples in the NT.

I'm not sure if it is a sheep and goat thing Charlie. BAAAAAA

All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.… Matt. 25:32-34

I think the bottom line is a sheep and goats thing.

Yes, and we want to be in the right herd. I'm just not so sure the issue we have been debating so long delineates our two positions as sheep and goat. I'm not prepared to say you are a goat because you and I agree on the immediacy of baptism, we just differ on the certainty of the nano-second of the conveyance of salvation. If I lead someone to Christ and you do to, and they both truly believe and repent and confess Jesus is Lord and are immediately baptized, at the end of the day is my convert any less saved because he feels baptism is one of the necessities in our faith response than yours who was taught it has nothing to do with salvation. I would not condemn your convert to a state of damnation. Would you say the same about mine?
This is where the rubber meets the road, where people are offended, and maybe more than some can endure. But we are two grown men Jaime. We can discuss this without malice. I dare say there are few I could discuss this with.
Bearing my conviction I cannot say the same for your convert. In my humble opinion your convert has received a split faith. No matter how you word it, your convert has faith for salvation in faith and baptism. I do not believe this is the faith that brings eternal life.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #92 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 12:29:46 »
You plainly said salvation does not come from within a man.

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. Rom 10:9-10

The word "obey" is not hard to deal with when properly placed to it's correct intent.
We are commanded by God to believe in His Son.
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12
The word "obey" comes after salvation and baptism is the first act in obeying. Prior to this it is impossible to obey God.

Honestly, if you want to promote the idea that "believed" in Ephesians 1:13 comes before any possible active response, then you just conflicted with Romans 10:9-10. The Ephesians were sealed with the Spirit prior to confessing Jesus with the mouth?

Every time you try to hang your hat on a "believe" passage without understanding what it is saying in light of other scripture, you end up conflicting with other scripture. You do this repeatedly.

You even posted an article by somebody who supported what you believe about baptism, but he at the same time and by the exact same passages and methods, shot down what you believe about confessing Jesus. You can't seem to see the inconsistencies in what you post in these discussions.
Maybe Charlie24 believes that "believe" automatically includes confessing Jesus as Lord. If that is the case, I would say it automatically includes baptism as well.
Not to mention that Paul, wrote Romans 10:0-10, had believed and confessed Jesus as Lord -Acts 22:8,10 and yet his sins were still not washed away -Acts 22:16.
Lastly, Paul was writing to the Roman Church, not teaching Christians the whole of how one is saved, but going over a piece of it. Paul's own conversion does not support belief and confession only.
So Paul only preached "a piece of the Gospel." That's amazing erm. Your vast knowledge of scripture is overwhelming. I never realized Paul was only given part of the Gospel.
Charlie24,
You said you've been studying scriptures for a long time. So why do you rely mostly on word play?
I didn't say a piece of the gospel, I said a piece of salvation. The gospel includes much more than just the mechanism of how one is saved. Word play is not a good way to make your point.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #93 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 12:31:17 »
I used to be a decision counselor at a Christian Church.   This is a distant cousin to the Churches of Christ and I say "distant" because the Christian Church, also a Restoration Movement group, is often considered to be "too evangelical."   Anyway, I very distinctly remember a young couple that had come forward to join the church.   It was my duty to council with them, which I did.  While I was counseling with them I began to describe the meaning of baptism and how it related to all of the things that Christ had done to save her.   She began to bawl and almost uncontrollably.   That greatly affected me too.   You see, she had recognized Who Christ is and What He had done for her.   He became her savior not the impending act of immersion in water.   

A Church of Christ poster here said that it drives him nuts when people say that baptism is not necessary for salvation.   It drives me nuts when people make this a religious issue, a works issue.   They fail to recognize the Savior described in Isaiah 53.  They fail to see that the Scriptures proclaim Him to be All-Sufficient (I did not say Sufficient for All, so don't go there).   They believe that they must not admit that God has done everything needed to save us.   This is the same wrong belief they have about faith.   They deny that the Holy Spirit has a part in salvation as that would interfere with our free will.   They let this same wrong intellectual conclusion interfere with their understanding of the symbolic beauty of baptism and turn it into a "see what I've done" show.   They all need to repent.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #94 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 12:32:23 »
Wouldn't that be in direct opposition to Eph. 1:13? Paul said we receive the seal of the Holy Spirit when we believe not at baptism.

No where in scripture does it even hint that we receive the Holy Spirit at baptism.

If you think this because the Holy Spirit came on Jesus when He was baptized, Jesus didn't receive the Holy Spirit to be born into the family of God, He was God.

Scripture assumes that belief and baptism are pretty much simultaneous. It is the modern church that has seperated the 2, thus leading to this dichotomy of opinion on what does what.
Agreed.

Absolutely agree. The modern dichotomy would stun the first century folks in my opinion. It would be like trying to separate pain from childbirth. When the folks in the NT accepted Christ in their hearts they pretty much simultaneously put on Christ in baptism. That's the way I looked at it. My entire faith response of belief and acceptance, repentance, confessing with my lips that he is Lord and neing baptized was my salvation experience, not experienceS. It was one continuous seemless event in my mind and in my Spirit, as I understood the salvation examples in the NT.

I'm not sure if it is a sheep and goat thing Charlie. BAAAAAA

All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.… Matt. 25:32-34

I think the bottom line is a sheep and goats thing.

Yes, and we want to be in the right herd. I'm just not so sure the issue we have been debating so long delineates our two positions as sheep and goat. I'm not prepared to say you are a goat because you and I agree on the immediacy of baptism, we just differ on the certainty of the nano-second of the conveyance of salvation. If I lead someone to Christ and you do to, and they both truly believe and repent and confess Jesus is Lord and are immediately baptized, at the end of the day is my convert any less saved because he feels baptism is one of the necessities in our faith response than yours who was taught it has nothing to do with salvation. I would not condemn your convert to a state of damnation. Would you say the same about mine?
This is where the rubber meets the road, where people are offended, and maybe more than some can endure. But we are two grown men Jaime. We can discuss this without malice. I dare say there are few I could discuss this with.
Bearing my conviction I cannot say the same for your convert. In my humble opinion your convert has received a split faith. No matter how you word it, your convert has faith for salvation in faith and baptism. I do not believe this is the faith that brings eternal life.
Rather we have faith in Jesus who prescribed both for Salvation.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #95 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 12:33:04 »
Wouldn't that be in direct opposition to Eph. 1:13? Paul said we receive the seal of the Holy Spirit when we believe not at baptism.

No where in scripture does it even hint that we receive the Holy Spirit at baptism.

If you think this because the Holy Spirit came on Jesus when He was baptized, Jesus didn't receive the Holy Spirit to be born into the family of God, He was God.

Scripture assumes that belief and baptism are pretty much simultaneous. It is the modern church that has seperated the 2, thus leading to this dichotomy of opinion on what does what.
Agreed.

Absolutely agree. The modern dichotomy would stun the first century folks in my opinion. It would be like trying to separate pain from childbirth. When the folks in the NT accepted Christ in their hearts they pretty much simultaneously put on Christ in baptism. That's the way I looked at it. My entire faith response of belief and acceptance, repentance, confessing with my lips that he is Lord and neing baptized was my salvation experience, not experienceS. It was one continuous seemless event in my mind and in my Spirit, as I understood the salvation examples in the NT.

I'm not sure if it is a sheep and goat thing Charlie. BAAAAAA

All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.… Matt. 25:32-34

I think the bottom line is a sheep and goats thing.

Yes, and we want to be in the right herd. I'm just not so sure the issue we have been debating so long delineates our two positions as sheep and goat. I'm not prepared to say you are a goat because you and I agree on the immediacy of baptism, we just differ on the certainty of the nano-second of the conveyance of salvation. If I lead someone to Christ and you do to, and they both truly believe and repent and confess Jesus is Lord and are immediately baptized, at the end of the day is my convert any less saved because he feels baptism is one of the necessities in our faith response than yours who was taught it has nothing to do with salvation. I would not condemn your convert to a state of damnation. Would you say the same about mine?
This is where the rubber meets the road, where people are offended, and maybe more than some can endure. But we are two grown men Jaime. We can discuss this without malice. I dare say there are few I could discuss this with.
Bearing my conviction I cannot say the same for your convert. In my humble opinion your convert has received a split faith. No matter how you word it, your convert has faith for salvation in faith and baptism. I do not believe this is the faith that brings eternal life.
You have to be the first I have heard that says baptism in Christ name condemns one to hell. Just can't wrap my head around that.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #96 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 12:39:52 »
Wouldn't that be in direct opposition to Eph. 1:13? Paul said we receive the seal of the Holy Spirit when we believe not at baptism.

No where in scripture does it even hint that we receive the Holy Spirit at baptism.

If you think this because the Holy Spirit came on Jesus when He was baptized, Jesus didn't receive the Holy Spirit to be born into the family of God, He was God.

Scripture assumes that belief and baptism are pretty much simultaneous. It is the modern church that has seperated the 2, thus leading to this dichotomy of opinion on what does what.
Agreed.

Absolutely agree. The modern dichotomy would stun the first century folks in my opinion. It would be like trying to separate pain from childbirth. When the folks in the NT accepted Christ in their hearts they pretty much simultaneously put on Christ in baptism. That's the way I looked at it. My entire faith response of belief and acceptance, repentance, confessing with my lips that he is Lord and neing baptized was my salvation experience, not experienceS. It was one continuous seemless event in my mind and in my Spirit, as I understood the salvation examples in the NT.

I'm not sure if it is a sheep and goat thing Charlie. BAAAAAA

All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.… Matt. 25:32-34

I think the bottom line is a sheep and goats thing.

Yes, and we want to be in the right herd. I'm just not so sure the issue we have been debating so long delineates our two positions as sheep and goat. I'm not prepared to say you are a goat because you and I agree on the immediacy of baptism, we just differ on the certainty of the nano-second of the conveyance of salvation. If I lead someone to Christ and you do to, and they both truly believe and repent and confess Jesus is Lord and are immediately baptized, at the end of the day is my convert any less saved because he feels baptism is one of the necessities in our faith response than yours who was taught it has nothing to do with salvation. I would not condemn your convert to a state of damnation. Would you say the same about mine?
This is where the rubber meets the road, where people are offended, and maybe more than some can endure. But we are two grown men Jaime. We can discuss this without malice. I dare say there are few I could discuss this with.
Bearing my conviction I cannot say the same for your convert. In my humble opinion your convert has received a split faith. No matter how you word it, your convert has faith for salvation in faith and baptism. I do not believe this is the faith that brings eternal life.
You have to be the first I have heard that says baptism in Christ name condemns one to hell. Just can't wrap my head around that.
If we don't understand the correct purpose for baptism we do it to ourselves.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #97 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 12:43:37 »
Colossians 2:11-15 – “In Whom also you are circumcised with the Circumcision made without hands (that which is brought about by the Cross [Rom. 6:3-5]), in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the Circumcision of Christ (refers to the old carnal nature that is defeated by the Believer placing his Faith totally in the Cross, which gives the Holy Spirit latitude to work):
     
“Buried with Him in Baptism (does not refer to Water Baptism, but rather to the Believer baptized into the death of Christ, which refers to the Crucifixion and Christ as our substitute [Rom. 6:3-4]), wherein also you are risen with Him through the Faith of the operation of God, Who has raised Him from the dead.  (This does not refer to our future physical Resurrection, but to that spiritual Resurrection from a sinful state into Divine Life.  We died with Him, we are buried with Him, and we rose with Him [Rom. 6:3-5], and herein lies the secret to all Spiritual Victory.)
     
“And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh (speaks of spiritual death [i.e., ‘separation from God’], which sin does!), has He quickened together with Him (refers to being made spiritually alive, which is done through being ‘Born-Again’), having forgiven you all trespasses (the Cross made it possible for all manner of sins to be forgiven and taken away);
     
“Blotting out the handwriting of Ordinances that was against us (pertains to the Law of Moses, which was God’s Standard of Righteousness that man could not reach), which was contrary to us (Law is against us, simply because we are unable to keep its precepts, no matter how hard we try), and took it out of the way (refers to the penalty of the Law being removed), nailing it to His Cross (the Law with its decrees was abolished in Christ’s Death, as if Crucified with Him);
     
“And having spoiled principalities and powers (Satan and all of his henchmen were defeated at the Cross by Christ atoning for all sin; sin was the legal right Satan had to hold man in captivity; with all sin atoned, he has no more legal right to hold anyone in bondage), He (Christ) made a show of them openly (what Jesus did at the Cross was in the face of the whole universe), triumphing over them in it.  (The triumph is complete and it was all done for us, meaning we can walk in power and perpetual Victory due to the Cross.)”

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #98 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 12:45:50 »
I used to be a decision counselor at a Christian Church.   This is a distant cousin to the Churches of Christ and I say "distant" because the Christian Church, also a Restoration Movement group, is often considered to be "too evangelical."   Anyway, I very distinctly remember a young couple that had come forward to join the church.   It was my duty to council with them, which I did.  While I was counseling with them I began to describe the meaning of baptism and how it related to all of the things that Christ had done to save her.   She began to bawl and almost uncontrollably.   That greatly affected me too.   You see, she had recognized Who Christ is and What He had done for her.   He became her savior not the impending act of immersion in water.
No, she was simply cut/pricked to the heart as in Acts 2:37. A contrite heart is exactly what one should have before being baptized. It's not the sign that someone has been saved. Otherwise Peter would have declared the crowd saved on the spot and not instructed them to be baptized in Jesus's name for the forgiveness of their sins.

Quote
A Church of Christ poster here said that it drives him nuts when people say that baptism is not necessary for salvation.   It drives me nuts when people make this a religious issue, a works issue.
Baptism Acts 2:38 in and of itself is not a works issue unless a person approaches it without heart and faith.

Quote
They fail to recognize the Savior described in Isaiah 53. They fail to see that the Scriptures proclaim Him to be All-Sufficient (I did not say Sufficient for All, so don't go there).   They believe that they must not admit that God has done everything needed to save us.   This is the same wrong belief they have about faith.   They deny that the Holy Spirit has a part in salvation as that would interfere with our free will.   They let this same wrong intellectual conclusion interfere with their understanding of the symbolic beauty of baptism and turn it into a "see what I've done" show.   They all need to repent.
Neither do I deny the Holy Spirit played a part in a person getting saved, nor have I ever seen baptism as a "see what I've done" show. Baptism is what it is -Acts 2:38. Using the term symbolic beauty of baptism doesn't make it Biblical.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #99 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 12:49:40 »
Wouldn't that be in direct opposition to Eph. 1:13? Paul said we receive the seal of the Holy Spirit when we believe not at baptism.

No where in scripture does it even hint that we receive the Holy Spirit at baptism.

If you think this because the Holy Spirit came on Jesus when He was baptized, Jesus didn't receive the Holy Spirit to be born into the family of God, He was God.

Scripture assumes that belief and baptism are pretty much simultaneous. It is the modern church that has seperated the 2, thus leading to this dichotomy of opinion on what does what.
Agreed.

Absolutely agree. The modern dichotomy would stun the first century folks in my opinion. It would be like trying to separate pain from childbirth. When the folks in the NT accepted Christ in their hearts they pretty much simultaneously put on Christ in baptism. That's the way I looked at it. My entire faith response of belief and acceptance, repentance, confessing with my lips that he is Lord and neing baptized was my salvation experience, not experienceS. It was one continuous seemless event in my mind and in my Spirit, as I understood the salvation examples in the NT.

I'm not sure if it is a sheep and goat thing Charlie. BAAAAAA

All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.… Matt. 25:32-34

I think the bottom line is a sheep and goats thing.

Yes, and we want to be in the right herd. I'm just not so sure the issue we have been debating so long delineates our two positions as sheep and goat. I'm not prepared to say you are a goat because you and I agree on the immediacy of baptism, we just differ on the certainty of the nano-second of the conveyance of salvation. If I lead someone to Christ and you do to, and they both truly believe and repent and confess Jesus is Lord and are immediately baptized, at the end of the day is my convert any less saved because he feels baptism is one of the necessities in our faith response than yours who was taught it has nothing to do with salvation. I would not condemn your convert to a state of damnation. Would you say the same about mine?
This is where the rubber meets the road, where people are offended, and maybe more than some can endure. But we are two grown men Jaime. We can discuss this without malice. I dare say there are few I could discuss this with.
Bearing my conviction I cannot say the same for your convert. In my humble opinion your convert has received a split faith. No matter how you word it, your convert has faith for salvation in faith and baptism. I do not believe this is the faith that brings eternal life.
You have to be the first I have heard that says baptism in Christ name condemns one to hell. Just can't wrap my head around that.
If we don't understand the correct purpose for baptism we do it to ourselves.
Do you have a direct scripture for the correct purpose for baptism? Acts 2:38 is a direct scripture.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #100 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 12:53:03 »
Wouldn't that be in direct opposition to Eph. 1:13? Paul said we receive the seal of the Holy Spirit when we believe not at baptism.

No where in scripture does it even hint that we receive the Holy Spirit at baptism.

If you think this because the Holy Spirit came on Jesus when He was baptized, Jesus didn't receive the Holy Spirit to be born into the family of God, He was God.

Scripture assumes that belief and baptism are pretty much simultaneous. It is the modern church that has seperated the 2, thus leading to this dichotomy of opinion on what does what.
Agreed.

Absolutely agree. The modern dichotomy would stun the first century folks in my opinion. It would be like trying to separate pain from childbirth. When the folks in the NT accepted Christ in their hearts they pretty much simultaneously put on Christ in baptism. That's the way I looked at it. My entire faith response of belief and acceptance, repentance, confessing with my lips that he is Lord and neing baptized was my salvation experience, not experienceS. It was one continuous seemless event in my mind and in my Spirit, as I understood the salvation examples in the NT.

I'm not sure if it is a sheep and goat thing Charlie. BAAAAAA

All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.… Matt. 25:32-34

I think the bottom line is a sheep and goats thing.

Yes, and we want to be in the right herd. I'm just not so sure the issue we have been debating so long delineates our two positions as sheep and goat. I'm not prepared to say you are a goat because you and I agree on the immediacy of baptism, we just differ on the certainty of the nano-second of the conveyance of salvation. If I lead someone to Christ and you do to, and they both truly believe and repent and confess Jesus is Lord and are immediately baptized, at the end of the day is my convert any less saved because he feels baptism is one of the necessities in our faith response than yours who was taught it has nothing to do with salvation. I would not condemn your convert to a state of damnation. Would you say the same about mine?
This is where the rubber meets the road, where people are offended, and maybe more than some can endure. But we are two grown men Jaime. We can discuss this without malice. I dare say there are few I could discuss this with.
Bearing my conviction I cannot say the same for your convert. In my humble opinion your convert has received a split faith. No matter how you word it, your convert has faith for salvation in faith and baptism. I do not believe this is the faith that brings eternal life.
You have to be the first I have heard that says baptism in Christ name condemns one to hell. Just can't wrap my head around that.
If we don't understand the correct purpose for baptism we do it to ourselves.
Do you have a direct scripture for the correct purpose for baptism? Acts 2:38 is a direct scripture.
No I don't erm, and you don't either. Understanding the whole Word of God reveals the truth.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #101 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 13:02:21 »
I used to be a decision counselor at a Christian Church.   This is a distant cousin to the Churches of Christ and I say "distant" because the Christian Church, also a Restoration Movement group, is often considered to be "too evangelical."   Anyway, I very distinctly remember a young couple that had come forward to join the church.   It was my duty to council with them, which I did.  While I was counseling with them I began to describe the meaning of baptism and how it related to all of the things that Christ had done to save her.   She began to bawl and almost uncontrollably.   That greatly affected me too.   You see, she had recognized Who Christ is and What He had done for her.   He became her savior not the impending act of immersion in water.
No, she was simply cut/pricked to the heart as in Acts 2:37. A contrite heart is exactly what one should have before being baptized. It's not the sign that someone has been saved. Otherwise Peter would have declared the crowd saved on the spot and not instructed them to be baptized in Jesus's name for the forgiveness of their sins.

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A Church of Christ poster here said that it drives him nuts when people say that baptism is not necessary for salvation.   It drives me nuts when people make this a religious issue, a works issue.
Baptism Acts 2:38 in and of itself is not a works issue unless a person approaches it without heart and faith.

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They fail to recognize the Savior described in Isaiah 53. They fail to see that the Scriptures proclaim Him to be All-Sufficient (I did not say Sufficient for All, so don't go there).   They believe that they must not admit that God has done everything needed to save us.   This is the same wrong belief they have about faith.   They deny that the Holy Spirit has a part in salvation as that would interfere with our free will.   They let this same wrong intellectual conclusion interfere with their understanding of the symbolic beauty of baptism and turn it into a "see what I've done" show.   They all need to repent.
Neither do I deny the Holy Spirit played a part in a person getting saved, nor have I ever seen baptism as a "see what I've done" show. Baptism is what it is -Acts 2:38. Using the term symbolic beauty of baptism doesn't make it Biblical.
But is a public display of your faith. Only Gods knows from within you what your purpose of baptism is. Eternal life is about faith, more specifically, where that faith is placed.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #102 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 13:12:25 »
Do you have a direct scripture for the correct purpose for baptism? Acts 2:38 is a direct scripture.

Better direct scriptures are Romans 6:3-4 and Colossians 2:12.

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #103 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 13:13:47 »
Matthew 3:13-17

Mark 1:9-11

Luke 3:21-23


13. Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan to John, that he might be baptized by him. 14. But John forbade him, saying, I have need to be baptized by thee, and dost thou come to me? 15. And Jesus answering said to him, Suffer it now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffers him. 16. And Jesus, having been baptized, went up immediately from the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him. 17. And, lo, a voice from heaven, saying, This is my be loved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

9. And it happened in those days, Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in Jordan. 10. And immediately, when he was going up out of the water, he saw the heavens cleft assunder, and the Spirit descending as a dove, upon him. 11. And a voice came from heaven, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

21. And it happened, that, while all the people were being baptized,  when Jesus had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, 22. And that the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily appearance, as a dove, upon him, and a voice came from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son: in thee I am well pleased. 23. And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age.


Let me ask some this question: "Why was Jesus Baptized"?  Please do not just say~for thus it became him to fulfill all righteousness. It is much more extensive, than to leave it with those words, for one has not really explained the purpose of Jesus' baptism by only saying those words.  Was Jesus' baptism for a different purpose than ours?  Or, the same? Waiting for some answers.

I am waiting for someone to answer this post.  Are there no takers? I would think that it is very important as to why Jesus was baptized.  Was it to fulfill Acts 2:38? Would it have any connection with Mark 16:16? Would it have any connection with Romans 6:3?

Hint:

I would say that it has more connection with Romans 6:3, and very close to Mark 16:16, not so much with Acts 2:38.  You boys from the coc should be very quick to answer this post.  I cannot believe that you have not even try so far. 

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #104 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 13:21:49 »
Do you have a direct scripture for the correct purpose for baptism? Acts 2:38 is a direct scripture.

Better direct scriptures are Romans 6:3-4 and Colossians 2:12.

May I? 1 Peter 3:21~first; Acts 2:38, very close behind if one truly understands regeneration in light of Acts 2:37 question!