Author Topic: Dunked in the Water  (Read 6494 times)

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Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #140 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 17:54:59 »
No I think the problem came with the Reformers. I agree with very little of Catholic teaching, especially infant baptism.
Six of one, half a dozen of the other, I see no difference.

No, the reformers like Zwingli were the first to try and repudiate baptism as a means of grace and claim it is only a sign of grace. Their repudiation of infant baptism and other Catholic teachings was correct. The Catholic church to my understanding taught that the act of baptism alone saves as well they claimed the sacrament of the Eucharist did. I certainly don't.
Zwingli defended infant baptism against the anabaptists who advocated for believer's baptism. He and Calvin were the first human beings ever recorded to try to divorce baptism from salvation. It started out as faith and baptism. The catholics removed faith, Zwingli and Calvin restored faith and removed baptism.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #140 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 17:54:59 »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #141 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 18:02:30 »
He either was contradicting earlier scripture or he was building upon earlier scripture. I choose the latter. Otherwise he was preaching a different gospel. If he was preaching a different gospel, I think that would have been abundantly clear in the text that everything prior to Paul was a mistake. I don't think the Holy Spirit made a mistake or intended to stealthily correct any earlier scripture but to perfectly harmonize with earlier scripture.

But I agree we disagree.
Paul was not building on earlier scripture. He said himself he received the revelation directly from Christ. Therefore he built his Gospel on the direct words from Christ.

It was Paul that set the church straight at Jerusalem. He confronted Peter and James, correcting them through the revelation given to him by Christ. They saw the error of their way and accepted the truth from Paul. Peter praises Paul for the wisdom given him by Christ through his epistles.

"His gospel" implies there was another. There isn't two gospels. Yes, he set Peter and James straight on the circumcision issue and the mystery of the gentile inclusion, but there was never any further refutation of anything else. He didn't by any stretch undo everything Peter taught. I wouldn't expect the Holy Spirit to have given Peter and others faulty information on the entire salvation issue. Apparently Peter and James and others made their own leap on the circumcision issue, and had to be corrected by the Spirit in Peter's vision and the Cornelius incident.

I consider myself a New Testament Christian (inclusive of Paul's teachings), and not JUST a Pauline Christian.
There was no problem with baptism in their day. The problem with baptism came some 300-400 years later when the RCC declared baptism necessary for salvation. It began with infant baptism (which is not scriptural) and later resulted in what they teach today. It has spread through the ranks of Christianity and now we face a problem Paul never encountered.
This is wrong Justin Martyr in 155 A.D. confirmed salvific water baptism for sins previously committed, not infant baptism.
And for [water baptism] we have learned from
the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we
were born without our own knowledge or
choice, by our parents coming together, and
were brought up in bad habits and wicked
training; in order that we may not remain the
children of necessity and of ignorance, but
may become the children of choice and
knowledge, and may obtain in the water the
remission of sins formerly committed.
(Justin,
First Apology 61)

Justin was born around 100 AD and was
converted around age 30 AD, which makes
this belief as early as 30 years after John died.
Since he said he learned this from the
Apostles, then this is what the Apostles
taught.

And then of course, there's Acts 2:38 and Galatians 3:26-27.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #142 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 18:03:22 »
Charlie with all due respect not to be mean but in hopes to get you to see I think you are reading your thoughts into what Paul teaches rather than actually hearing what Paul is saying.
Explain your reasoning Yogi.
Charlie it will take a long time to rehash all we have been showing you but for starters we will look ate Romans 6:3ff

Here we see Paul teaching what the baptism in Christ name is about and does for mankind. It is in direct connection to that of Acts 2:38 It is a water and spirit baptism and Paul explains how.

You say it is not that of Acts 2 and not of water but you have not proven that that is what Paul says. Therefore it is my opinion you are misunderstanding just what Paul is trying to tell you because you have been trained to see it in a different way and will not even give any thought that you may have been mislead.

That is just a touching of what I feel you are not seeing eye to eye with Paul on we could go on but I have to go to the doctors office right now so if need be will get back with you on this.
Yogi I understand why you believe this. But whether or not Paul is speaking of water in Rom. 6, let's drop that right now.
Paul tells us exactly what salvation means, exactly how to obtain it, and the glory of it. Never one time in all this does he say baptism is part of our salvation, but continuously tells us salvation is by grace through faith. He even tells us the exact moment of salvation, when we believe, and baptism is never mentioned. Do you honestly believe Paul expects us combine what he says with previous scripture, and never even mention it to us?
Charlie this is a prime example that you do not hear Paul but only hear yourself.

You said:" Never one time in all this does he say baptism is part of our salvation"

But what Paul said was;"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Romans 6:3-4 (KJV)

Just what do you think he said?

He is talking to the church at Rome. The saved. He told them that their baptism in Christ name (Acts 2:38) was into Christ death (the work on the cross).

He made it abundantly clear that in the baptism in Christ name is where the old man of sin is done away and the new spiritual life begins. He made it clear that is why we are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin and the receiving of the indwelling spirit.

It is very Clear he teaches baptism in Christ name and what it does. If this is not the baptism of Acts 2:38 then what is it?

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #142 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 18:03:22 »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #143 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 18:12:18 »
Paul's writings were not included to nullify the other parts of the NT. His writings are perfectly congruent with the rest in my view.
From day one on this site I have never denied any scripture you guys present for baptism. From day one I have said you have misunderstood these scriptures. I believe I have proven that through the epistles of Paul.
I've seen this throughout my life, the denying of Pauls writings to bear false witness of salvation.

Except I don't deny Paul's writings. I am saying they are perfectly congruent with the rest of the NT.
It is impossible to agree with the Gospel that Paul preached and place other imposed salvation scriptures in precedence over it, or combine these scriptures with Pauls which clearly oppose one another.

Unless you demand that Paul's writings are in contradiction of other NT writings. I do not. It IS impossible unless you take the NT cumulatively, one precept upon another. If you only take what Paul said to the exclusion of other NT scripture, you do run into problems. I do not believe the NT is divided up into 2 different gospels.
This is where I disagree. I believe Paul preached the whole Gospel, he explained it very well whereas no one else did.
I cannot and will not combine scripture well knowing this is not what the Revelator taught.
Do others from Charlie24's group agree with this statement?
« Last Edit: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 18:20:12 by e.r.m. »

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #143 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 18:12:18 »

Offline opie

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #144 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 18:44:10 »
It was Paul that set the church straight at Jerusalem. He confronted Peter and James, correcting them through the revelation given to him by Christ. They saw the error of their way and accepted the truth from Paul. Peter praises Paul for the wisdom given him by Christ through his epistles.

Paul "set the church straight at Jerusalem"?  That's not remotely true.  Paul isn't even quoted during the council at Jerusalem (Acts 15), only Peter and James are quoted by name.  Nothing in what they had to say needed to be "set straight", nor did the church as a whole require such correction.  The passage plainly states that the false teachers had acted on their own - "to whom we gave no such commandment" (Acts 15:24).

This was not about one man setting the rest of them straight - it was about the apostles and elders working together, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, in addressing an important matter.

And yes, Paul did correct Peter (for his hypocrisy (Gal. 2:13), not his doctrine), but there is no such record of him ever correcting James.  Why would you make up stuff like this?

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #144 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 18:44:10 »



Offline TruthScientist

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #145 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 19:17:26 »
Mark 16:16 (KJV)
16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

  A body has to believe before he can even be considered as a candidate for baptism.  Believing expresses faith in the gospel.  Which is the power that saves.  It was the events of the gospel by which salvation came to man.  Believing hits the target for us.  Baptism is an act of obedience that gives deeper expression to our faith before the Body and the world.  Water does not wash your sins away.  The blood of Jesus does that, the baptism is symbolic of that...

there is a reason you hardly ever add the "b" portion of Mk 16:16...  what do you think that reason might be? 

I was baptized and am proud of it and tell everyone I witness to who believes in the Gospel that they ought to be baptized.  But I explain that it is not to be saved but because you are saved...

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #145 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 19:17:26 »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #146 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 19:38:30 »
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Romans 6:3 (KJV)

So the many that was baptized into Christ. when did this happen?

Was it in water?

Was it the baptism of Acts 2:38?

According to Paul here just what did it accomplish?


Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Romans 6:16-18 (KJV)

Does this not drive home that baptism in Christ name done away with sin and gave the spirit as Acts 2:38 said it would?

How can one read these passages and still stand firm that baptism in Christ name has nothing do with salvation?

Is not being freed from sin and given a new spiritual life part of salvation?

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #147 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 19:42:32 »
TS for the 753 rd time, Mark 16:16 describes two things: 1) what comprises salvation and 2) what comprises condemnation. Baptism would not have to be mentioned in part B of the verse since everyone agrees belief is a prerequisite to baptism.

Jesus DID NOT say, no matter how you WANT it read, he that believes and is saved shall then be baptized. Not even remotely, if sentence structure of the translators means anything at all, and of course it does.

Offline TruthScientist

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #148 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 19:47:18 »
Jesus did not take water to the heaven after resurrection to present to the Father for the remission of sin.  It was His blood.  It was His death in our stead (the wages of sin is death) that freed us from the penalty of sin not baptism.  Baptism has its place for sure but it does not save...  it did not pay for sin, the death of Christ did.  Being baptised into His death comes after believing... 

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #148 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 19:47:18 »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #149 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 19:49:11 »
TS for the 753 rd time, Mark 16:16 describes two things: 1) what comprises salvation and 2) what comprises condemnation. Baptism would not have to be mentioned in part B of the verse since everyone agrees belief is a prerequisite to baptism.

Jesus DID NOT say, no matter how you WANT it read, he that believes and is saved shall then be baptized. Not even remotely, if sentence structure of the translators means anything at all, and of course it does.
Amen  One can not change the wording to fit their doctrine but must take it as it is recorded and apply it to your understanding.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #150 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 19:52:15 »
Jesus did not take water to the heaven after resurrection to present to the Father for the remission of sin.  It was His blood.  It was His death in our stead (the wages of sin is death) that freed us from the penalty of sin not baptism.  Baptism has its place for sure but it does not save...  it did not pay for sin, the death of Christ did.  Being baptised into His death comes after believing...
Yes baptism in Christ name follows belief but read what Paul and Peter says it accomplishes. You have to decide if Romans 6 defines Acts 2 and if it means as it says that it is when the old man of sin is destroyed and the new man in spirit arrives.

Offline TruthScientist

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #151 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 19:53:31 »
TS for the 753 rd time, Mark 16:16 describes two things: 1) what comprises salvation and 2) what comprises condemnation. Baptism would not have to be mentioned in part B of the verse since everyone agrees belief is a prerequisite to baptism.

Jesus DID NOT say, no matter how you WANT it read, he that believes and is saved shall then be baptized. Not even remotely, if sentence structure of the translators means anything at all, and of course it does.

pretty clear to me Jaime...  for the 754th time...  Baptism does not save...

he that believeth not is condemned already...  that is the state of men who do not believe for ignorance or on purpose...  nothing to be done... so the emphasis in the portion really does give a clear view of what it takes to not be condemned...believe and then you can be baptised...  755


Offline TruthScientist

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #152 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 19:56:21 »
Jesus did not take water to the heaven after resurrection to present to the Father for the remission of sin.  It was His blood.  It was His death in our stead (the wages of sin is death) that freed us from the penalty of sin not baptism.  Baptism has its place for sure but it does not save...  it did not pay for sin, the death of Christ did.  Being baptised into His death comes after believing...
Yes baptism in Christ name follows belief but read what Paul and Peter says it accomplishes. You have to decide if Romans 6 defines Acts 2 and if it means as it says that it is when the old man of sin is destroyed and the new man in spirit arrives.

the old man of sin is not destroyed when we are saved yogi...  you have to deal with him till you die or are raptured...  ask Paul?  the penalty of sin is destroyed but satan is trying a tempting you till the grave and he wins often in one way or another...

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #153 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 19:57:12 »
Mark 16:16 (KJV)
16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

A body has to believe before he can even be considered as a candidate for baptism.
Agreed.

Quote
Believing expresses faith in the gospel.  Which is the power that saves.
This is the belief that is being argued for, not the evidence for it.

Quote
It was the events of the gospel by which salvation came to man.  Believing hits the target for us.  Baptism is an act of obedience that gives deeper expression to our faith before the Body and the world.
Scripture for this?

Quote
Water does not wash your sins away.  The blood of Jesus does that, the baptism is symbolic of that...
Direct scripture for this description of baptism?

Quote
there is a reason you hardly ever add the "b" portion of Mk 16:16...  what do you think that reason might be?
The other side leaves out part a. The verse as a whole supports salvific baptism. What is the purpose of baptism being in the verse at all if it's not a part of getting saved?

Quote
I was baptized and am proud of it and tell everyone I witness to who believes in the Gospel that they ought to be baptized.  But I explain that it is not to be saved but because you are saved...
I teach those I witness the gospel to scriptural baptism described in Mark 16:16. Acts 2:38 and more. There are no scriptures regarding baptism is not to be saved.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #154 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 20:01:57 »
he that believeth not is condemned already..

True but that does deny what baptism in Christ name accomplishes Read Romans 6 to see what the baptism in Christ name accomplishes. It is only good for those that believe the gospel. There is nothing else matters if you do not believe in Christ work. You will not repent or confess or submit to baptism if you do not believe that is a given and an elementary fact only those that are trying to justify their misunderstanding has to lower themselves to that sort of reasoning.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #155 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 20:04:05 »
Jesus did not take water to the heaven after resurrection to present to the Father for the remission of sin.  It was His blood.  It was His death in our stead (the wages of sin is death) that freed us from the penalty of sin not baptism.  Baptism has its place for sure but it does not save...  it did not pay for sin, the death of Christ did.  Being baptised into His death comes after believing...
It comes after believing, but it does not come after being saved. Very colorful description though.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #156 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 20:08:24 »
Jesus did not take water to the heaven after resurrection to present to the Father for the remission of sin.  It was His blood.  It was His death in our stead (the wages of sin is death) that freed us from the penalty of sin not baptism.  Baptism has its place for sure but it does not save...  it did not pay for sin, the death of Christ did.  Being baptised into His death comes after believing...
Yes baptism in Christ name follows belief but read what Paul and Peter says it accomplishes. You have to decide if Romans 6 defines Acts 2 and if it means as it says that it is when the old man of sin is destroyed and the new man in spirit arrives.

the old man of sin is not destroyed when we are saved yogi...  you have to deal with him till you die or are raptured...  ask Paul?  the penalty of sin is destroyed but satan is trying a tempting you till the grave and he wins often in one way or another...
Okay a play on words

I was thinking alone the line as Paul addressed here.

 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. Romans 6:16-18 (KJV)

There he is referring to the baptism that they were baptized with. Just what from scripture is that baptism? I think he is pointing to the same one as Acts 2:38 what say you?

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #157 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 20:31:11 »
It was Paul that set the church straight at Jerusalem.

Really? Where does it say that?

Quote
He confronted Peter and James, correcting them through the revelation given to him by Christ. They saw the error of their way and accepted the truth from Paul.

No where did Paul correct James (at least as recorded in scripture) but Peter was corrected in Antioch (not Jerusalem) for duplicity.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #158 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 20:35:13 »
Paul "set the church straight at Jerusalem"?  That's not remotely true.  Paul isn't even quoted during the council at Jerusalem (Acts 15), only Peter and James are quoted by name.  Nothing in what they had to say needed to be "set straight", nor did the church as a whole require such correction.  The passage plainly states that the false teachers had acted on their own - "to whom we gave no such commandment" (Acts 15:24).

This was not about one man setting the rest of them straight - it was about the apostles and elders working together, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, in addressing an important matter.

And yes, Paul did correct Peter (for his hypocrisy (Gal. 2:13), not his doctrine), but there is no such record of him ever correcting James.  Why would you make up stuff like this?
They make that stuff up (including Paul's so-called name change) because it fits a certain doctrinal slant. Never mine that there is no support in scripture for it, or if there is, it is convoluted and stretched.

Charlie - I would really like to see you try to support these statements.  But since it is not specific about getting "dunked," perhaps in another thread.
« Last Edit: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 20:37:49 by DaveW »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #159 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 20:41:51 »
Paul "set the church straight at Jerusalem"?  That's not remotely true.  Paul isn't even quoted during the council at Jerusalem (Acts 15), only Peter and James are quoted by name.  Nothing in what they had to say needed to be "set straight", nor did the church as a whole require such correction.  The passage plainly states that the false teachers had acted on their own - "to whom we gave no such commandment" (Acts 15:24).

This was not about one man setting the rest of them straight - it was about the apostles and elders working together, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, in addressing an important matter.

And yes, Paul did correct Peter (for his hypocrisy (Gal. 2:13), not his doctrine), but there is no such record of him ever correcting James.  Why would you make up stuff like this?
They make that stuff up (including Paul's so-called name change) because it fits a certain doctrinal slant. Never mine that there is no support in scripture for it, or if there is, it is convoluted and stretched.
I wonder why some make Paul the preaching center of the Gospel. Maybe because he is the one who limited himself to Jesus Christ and Him crucified, while he was in Corinth.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #160 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 21:35:53 »
TS for the 753 rd time, Mark 16:16 describes two things: 1) what comprises salvation and 2) what comprises condemnation. Baptism would not have to be mentioned in part B of the verse since everyone agrees belief is a prerequisite to baptism.

Jesus DID NOT say, no matter how you WANT it read, he that believes and is saved shall then be baptized. Not even remotely, if sentence structure of the translators means anything at all, and of course it does.

pretty clear to me Jaime...  for the 754th time...  Baptism does not save...

he that believeth not is condemned already...  that is the state of men who do not believe for ignorance or on purpose...  nothing to be done... so the emphasis in the portion really does give a clear view of what it takes to not be condemned...believe and then you can be baptised...  755



Jesus nor I said baptism saves, but I concur with HIS statement that belief AND baptism do. He could have stated lime you want, but he didn't he DID NOT say he that nelieves and is saved anall be baptized. Followed by he that believes not is condemned already. The text AS written Is 100% congruant with other scriptur and itself. Not really a surprise unless one reads what isn't their to linebup with their mislead theology. Please drop the ridiculous claim thatthe verse doesn't say "he that believes AND is baptized shall be saved. I realize you and Charlie think Paul explained things better than Jesus himself. I call horse hockey.
« Last Edit: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 21:48:05 by Jaime »

Offline AnthonyB

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #161 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 21:44:34 »
If you drive to the shops and buy some food you can have dinner, if you don't drive to the shops you can't have dinner.

Action A "drive to the shops" preceeds action B "buys some food" but both actions need to be completed to get dinner.
In the second clause only Action A is listed because if you don't do A you can't do B.

Please keep in mind that even if there are exceptions to the being saved through baptism, they would in and of themselves not disconnect baptism from being saved, only that baptism isn't indespensably linked to salvation not that it isn't normally linked.

For example, part of normal way of becoming the US President is to win the vote in the electoral college. However Gerald Ford never won the electoral college vote and was never elected to be President or  VP but did indeed end up US President. Somebody who wanted to be President but then cited Gerald Ford's exceptional circumstance as the reason he didn't need to get elected by the electoral college would by most people be judged to simply not have really understood how it is you normally become US President. Just because exceptional circumstance can exist doesn't impact the normal process to do something.

Believe, be baptised and be saved is the what Jesus said. Even if there are examples of people being saved without baptism, it wouldn't negate that Jesus linked baptism following belief as part of how people are to be saved.
« Last Edit: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 22:40:20 by AnthonyB »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #162 on: Thu Jul 17, 2014 - 22:32:38 »
I agree.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #163 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 03:49:09 »
No I think the problem came with the Reformers. I agree with very little of Catholic teaching, especially infant baptism.

Good morning Jamie~where do you believe the Reformers came from?  Most, if not all, came from Catholicism.  That's where they were taught infant baptism.  Once a person are taught a certain doctrine, it is almost impossible for them to overcome those teachings and to rid themselves of all that they were taught.  Some escape unharmed, but very few. The good thing about myself, is that I was never brought up in a religion/faith~exposed yes, taught and practiced? No.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #164 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 04:09:09 »
Red,
Jesus' baptism to me has nothing to do with why we get baptized per se', but I have found it interesting that Jesus did no miracles prior to the Spirit lighting on him as a dove at his baptism. He later scolded the Pharisees for accusing him of doing miracles by the power of Beelzebub, telling them basically that blaspheming the son is one thing, but Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is another. Clearly indicating that he did his miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit. Patterning for us the power that lies available to us if we only allowed it and trusted in it.

Thank you Jaime for your post concerning my question, even though you never addressed the question.  I would desire for other coc to at least give me their opinion as to "why Jesus was baptized" before I give my understanding.  Surely, this question has been addressed a few times within the coc meetings in the last two hundred years since starting out.

I agree that Jesus did no miracles until he was baptized, and begin his journey to Calvary, and from there, to David's throne at the right hand of the Majesty on high.   

Quote
Patterning for us the power that lies available to us if we only allowed it and trusted in it.

It is by faith in the scriptures that we come to understand/know what we have available for us, under the new covenant provided for us by a gift from Jesus' Father, as one of the promises of the new covenant, which was sealed by the blood of the Son of God. 
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 04:15:20 by Red Baker »

Offline grams

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #165 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 04:41:38 »

I do pray you can understand this !

 Eph.3:

 1
 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
 2
 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:


 3
 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
 4
 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
 5
 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

 6
 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

 eph. 4

 4
 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

 5
 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

 Col.1:

 26
 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
 27
 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

 Col:2
 10
 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
 11
 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
 12
 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.


       14

 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

 ll 2: Tim.

 15

 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 

    [/b]
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Offline DaveW
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Re: Dunked in the Water

« Reply #81 on: Yesterday at 05:16:00 AM »


Reply

 
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Grams - what I understand is you hve been lied to. And you are now trying to spread those same lies to us.     

Davew,
So you think the bible is  all a lie ?    My .............  Do you really read ?

All that I posted  is from the  bible !   Were is your mind at ?
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 04:47:49 by grams »

Offline grams

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #166 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 05:00:18 »


All saved persons have been made members of the Body of Christ by One divine baptism (this is baptism into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit). By that ONE BAPTISM, every member of the Body of Christ is identified with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. In light of the statement concerning the "ONE BAPTISM" in Ephesians 4:5 and the statement in I Corinthians 1:17 that "Christ sent me not to baptize but to preach the gospel", we affirm that water baptism has no place in God's spiritual program for the Body of Christ in this day of grace.
 

Offline AnthonyB

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #167 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 05:59:31 »
grams,

Paul affirms that he had baptised some people amongst the Corinthians in the verse before the one you listed, if water baptism has no part in the spiritual program in this day of grace, why was Paul still baptising anybody?

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #168 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 06:19:19 »
No I think the problem came with the Reformers. I agree with very little of Catholic teaching, especially infant baptism.

Good morning Jamie~where do you believe the Reformers came from?  Most, if not all, came from Catholicism.  That's where they were taught infant baptism.  Once a person are taught a certain doctrine, it is almost impossible for them to overcome those teachings and to rid themselves of all that they were taught.  Some escape unharmed, but very few. The good thing about myself, is that I was never brought up in a religion/faith~exposed yes, taught and practiced? No.

Yes they did come from Catholicism and their battle against Rome on the infant baptism issue was correct. But especially Zwingli's position on baptism as only a symbol wa not in my opinion. Luther and some others believed as the
 apostles believed and practiced according to what I have read, but their followers were later influenced by Calvin in he pendumlum overswing on the sovereignty of man vs free will.
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 10:14:47 by Jaime »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #169 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 06:22:07 »
Davew,
So you think the bible is  all a lie ?    My .............  Do you really read ?

All that I posted  is from the  bible !   Were is your mind at ?

No, the bible is not a lie at all.  Where the "lie" is, is in what you think it is saying. You have been taught a faulty intrepretation that actually goes opposite of what the text is saying.  I know to you it may seem obvious, but it is not.

First off, until you accurately understand the Law and who it was given to and why, you cannot understand the Grace that Paul says is being dispensed. Hint: if you are a gentile the Law was NEVER given to you EVER.

"It is a sign between ME and the Israelites forever..."

Gentiles are fellow heirs with the Jews in the New Covenant by being grafted in (see Romans 11).

I could go on but I fear I could totally overload you with another viewpoint. Suffice it now to give you small pieces.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #170 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 08:13:26 »
grams,

Paul affirms that he had baptised some people amongst the Corinthians in the verse before the one you listed, if water baptism has no part in the spiritual program in this day of grace, why was Paul still baptising anybody?
Paul also baptized in Acts 19:1-5.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #171 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 09:01:05 »
grams,

Paul affirms that he had baptised some people amongst the Corinthians in the verse before the one you listed, if water baptism has no part in the spiritual program in this day of grace, why was Paul still baptising anybody?
Paul also baptized in Acts 19:1-5.
And that was to straighten out a faulty baptism so I guess in Paul's mind baptism is more than you give him credit as to thinking. Think about that if baptism in Christ name was not for remission of sin and giving the spirit then why did Paul bother with making sure those were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #172 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 09:28:20 »
grams,

Paul affirms that he had baptised some people amongst the Corinthians in the verse before the one you listed, if water baptism has no part in the spiritual program in this day of grace, why was Paul still baptising anybody?
Paul also baptized in Acts 19:1-5.
And that was to straighten out a faulty baptism so I guess in Paul's mind baptism is more than you give him credit as to thinking. Think about that if baptism in Christ name was not for remission of sin and giving the spirit then why did Paul bother with making sure those were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
Yes, and it just occurred to me. This goes against getting baptized just because God says to do it. Otherwise their baptism may have been sufficient.

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #173 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 09:39:15 »
Paul also baptized in Acts 19:1-5.
And that was to straighten out a faulty baptism so I guess in Paul's mind baptism is more than you give him credit as to thinking. Think about that if baptism in Christ name was not for remission of sin and giving the spirit then why did Paul bother with making sure those were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

The Acts 19 case is interesting in that it is the ONLY case of people who were believers but not properly baptized where it says what was to be done with that situation.  the only other case is that of Apollos which we are told that Priscilla and Aquilla gave him further instruction.  No mention of rebaptizing him.

First off - it calls these men "disciples" which means "under discipline" literally but was used to indiate born again believers. You can debate back and forth whether they were saved or not.  That is speculation as the text is silent on that point.

Paul asks them about the Holy Spirit and they indicate they never even heard of such a thing.  So  he asks about their baptism.  Why?  Because "baptism in Jesus' name" was a shorthand for "In the Name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit." and there they should have heard of the Holy Spirit.

They say they have had John's baptism (probably linking them to be early converts from Apollos who also only knew of John's baptism)

Paul orders an IMMEDIATE re-baptism for these men.

Clearly Paul understood how important a proper water baptism was for him to go to such great lengths.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

Not the next day or next year.  WHEN they heard it.

And then - AFTER being water baptized - Paul lays hands on them for the baptism in the Spirit and they speak in tongues and prophesy.   Clearly 2 different baptisms here.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Dunked in the Water
« Reply #174 on: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 10:55:30 »
Quote
And then - AFTER being water baptized - Paul lays hands on them for the baptism in the Spirit and they speak in tongues and prophesy.   Clearly 2 different baptisms here.

I think you may be reading into this a little. I see where the baptism in Christ name was mentioned but the baptism in the holy spirit as you seem to be inferring is not said to be here. Paul laid hands on them to transfer the power for witness so they could plant a new church. The way most teach the baptism of the holy spirit is not done by the laying on of hands so I do not see where there is two baptisms other than Johns and In Jesus name for the giving of the spirit talked about here.

The holy spirit baptism as called when the spirit was poured out on the Jews at Pentecost and the Gentiles at Cornelius house was not by laying on of hands and neither is the laying on of hands the giving of the holy spirit baptism as some call it.
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 18, 2014 - 11:00:57 by yogi bear »

 

     
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