GCM Home | Your Posts | Rules | DONATE | Bookstore | Facebook | Twitter | FAQs


Author Topic: Endless Torture  (Read 1678 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Reformer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2541
  • Manna: 75
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Endless Torture
« on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 12:04:15 »
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
_______________________________
E n d l e s s  T o r t u r e

[A VALID CONCEPT?]

PART 1

      As my older readers know, in times past I have given my attention to the concept of eternal punishment vs. endless conscious torture, as it relates to the ungodly. There are numerous scriptures that speak of eternal or everlasting destruction for those who knowingly reject the God of creation. Some of these scriptures are cited at the end of this column. One brother, who seems to have researched this subject rather extensively, recently wrote:
_______
 
    “It seems you are basing this study only on the English word ‘destruction’ and its definition, and not on the Greek. The scriptures you referenced actually use two different Greek words that can be translated destroy or destruction. Peter and Jude use the word apollumi (2 Peter 3 & Jude 7).
 
    “Paul, in 2 Thessalonians 1, uses the word olethros. Olethros in the Greek means to destroy, kill, ruin, destruction. The fundamental thought is not annihilation by any means, but unavoidable distress and torment.
   
    “In Mark 9:43-48, Jesus describes an unquenchable fire where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. Why will the worm and the fire go on forever if the punishment of those cast therein is temporary? By the way, you said the fire in Jude 7 is temporary, but Jude describes it as an ‘eternal fire.
’ ”
________
 
    Here are my observations. The burning of Sodom and Gomorrah is described as “eternal fire” (Jude 7), or, we might say, unquenchable fire, like Mark 9:43-48, yet we know that fire is not still burning. When the results were concluded, the fire ceased. The results will never cease being results. But the fire itself ceased long ago. 

    According to my reader’s understanding, the fire in Jude 7, as pertaining to Sodom and Gomorrah, is still burning. If this is not his position, and I assume it isn’t, because we all know that fire does not continue to burn, the meaning then would be the results of that fire are endless, not the fire itself. Just so with Mark 9:43-48. The results of the state of punishment for the ungodly are continual, never-ending, not the punishment itself.

    We agree the ungodly will be punished. There is zero controversy here. The controversy arises when we teach that God operates a torture chamber and those inside it will never be relieved of their excruciating misery. My God’s nature is not one of a torturer.

    Let it be said that Satan is real. Hell is real. Eternal or everlasting punishment is real. But not endless torture.  God is a God of mercy and compassion. He is not a Master Torturer. Nothing could be as cruel and brutal as subjecting someone to excruciating torture forever. I tell you plainly, this is not the God I know.   

    If an ungodly friend of mine was being subjected to torture and I had the power to stop it, I could not stand by and allow it to continue endlessly. That would be like an executioner pulling the switch on an Electric Chair to execute a murderer endlessly, during which time he would be kept alive.

    Yes, he deserves to be punished for his crime. But once justice has been served, out of mercy the punishment must end. The God we know is merciful beyond our comprehension. Our level of mercy does not even compare to His. So in the scriptures, as I understand them, “eternal destruction” should be taken at face value, which, in the longrun, will be annihilation, not uninterrupted torture.

    “They [the ungodly] will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His might” (2 Thess 1:9).
 
    What manner of punishment will be meted out to the ungodly? First of all, I do not believe literal fire and brimstone will remain after this physical, palpable universe has ended. I’m inclined to believe the “fire and brimstone” the ungodly will suffer prior to annihilation will manifest itself when they look upon the glory of that eternal, hallowed and stately “palace” in heaven, with all of its exquisite splendor, and realize what they have foregone because of their rejection of God. That, I think, will be their “fire and brimstone,” followed by eternal destruction or annihilation. The results of their suffering and annihilation will be forever

    Jude speaks of those in Sodom and Gomorrah who suffered “the punishment of eternal fire” when their cities and their sexually perverted inhabitants were destroyed (Jude 7). But was the fire itself eternal—never-ending? Is it still burning? Of course not. The fire was not meant to be endless, only the results. And so it will be with the ungodly. Their punishment will be forever, never-ending, as the results will endure throughout eternity. [See Part II next week.]
__________
 
    ON “DESTRUCTION”— Jesus, Matt. 7:13; Jesus, Luke 17:12; Paul, Rom. 9:22; Paul, Gal. 6:8; Paul, Phil. 3:19; Paul, I Thess. 5:3; Paul, 2 Thess. 1:9; 2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:3; 2 Peter 3:7; 2 Peter 3:16.
________

    EXCERPT FROM “THE SON OF PERDITION”—  “You will notice that in all of these ‘sightings’ of Mary, not once did anyone see Jesus! I find that extraordinarily irregular, for He is the Pioneer and Author of our salvation. Why Mary and not Jesus? It is because Mary has been idolized. Idolatry within the confines of Roman Catholicism is like a raging river.”
 
    For free copies of this book, “The Son Of Perdition,” postage included, send me your Postal Address.—Buff.
   
« Last Edit: Sun May 20, 2018 - 12:30:39 by Reformer »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Endless Torture
« on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 12:04:15 »

Online 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6888
  • Manna: 210
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #1 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 13:15:05 »
The description of hell, just as is the description of heaven, is given only in figurative terms.  We have no experiential basis for understanding either.  What I think we can safely say is that no matter how great, how marvelous, how wonderful we can imagine heaven to be, it will be orders of magnitude greater, more marvelous and more wonderful than any of that.  And similarly, we can safely say that no matter how terrible, how horrendous, how gruesome we can imagine hell to be, it will be orders of magnitude more terrible, more horrendous and more gruesome than any of that.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #1 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 13:15:05 »

Offline Reformer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2541
  • Manna: 75
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #2 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 13:23:39 »

Well said, 4WD. Couldn't have explained any better.

Blessings,

Buff

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #2 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 13:23:39 »

Offline LaSpino3

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2329
  • Manna: 83
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #3 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 15:19:16 »
Reformer, hope every things going well with you?

Two points I believe your article rests on, but first let me comment on 4WD comment concerning the term "figurative." Figurative, meaning something that represents or rests on something else. When speaking of heaven, if John in Revelation from chapter 4 forward, wasn't in heaven, describing the throne of the Father, angels, saints, the seven spirits of God etc. then what is the figure he is speaking of? Also Paul saw things in heaven that were so wonderful, no words could explain them. Obviously, if it can't be described because there's nothing like it on earth, then----- what's it a figure of?

No, heaven and hell are both real places, and if heaven is eternal, so is hell. Two points:

1. Your articles title "endless torture." Question, is there a difference in the meaning of torture, and punishment? I have no knowledge of God ever torturing anyone. 

Do you believe all mortals are composed of, 1 Thessalonians 5:23, "SPIRIT and SOUL and BODY be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." If a person doesn't understand that we are all composed of body, soul, and spirit, then I can understand your thinking, the body dies, and that's the end of it. 

But scriptures teach that all three need to be, and will be transformed one day to the image of the Son of God, or, as written in Revelation 20:13-14, raised in corruption and doomed to everlasting punishment. Punishment is not by the LORD's choice. We all have the opportunity to come to Jesus Christ, but sorry to say many have chosen to follow the ways of sin.

2. The body is the flesh: a soul is a persons thoughts, their reasoning committed to God's moral government, or in the case of sinners, not! The third part of a man is his spirit. Hard to describe, hmmm, as the Father is Spirit, angels are spirit, meaning, although they are not material, they do have a form. Ezekiel, Paul and John gave hints of the form of many spirit creatures they had seen in heaven, some different, but each had some form of spiritual body. Also, every man, women and child has a soul and a spirit that are covered with flesh.     

Before Jesus came in the flesh he was spirit. In the O.T. we see him having manifested himself in the flesh, this is called "Theophany." This manifestation was accomplished by Him in order to communicate with men like Abram, Moses, Manoah, his wife, and Jacob who wrestled with Him. Of course these were only temporary conditions, because the Lord after these O.T. human appearances always returned to heaven in the spirit only.

Now when Jesus came, it became a permanent condition, for he, K.J.B. "1 Timothy 3:16, is, "God manifest in the flesh." Matthew 1:23, He is "God with us." He was raised with an incorruptible immortal body, as we also shall be. 

Now scriptures teach that we are body, soul and spirit. The curse on man was on his spirit first, then like Adam, all are to die in the flesh. When the flesh dies, the soul and spirit are separated from the body, then go to a place called paradise. And like Lazarus and the rich man. Good guys above, the bad guys below, "in hell, he (Lazarus) lift up his eyes." but we are all waiting for the Lord's return, eternity with the Lord, or eternal damnation in the lake of fire.
Laspino3 

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #3 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 15:19:16 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Online 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6888
  • Manna: 210
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #4 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 16:15:01 »
No, heaven and hell are both real places.....
LS3, even the word "place" denotes a physical entity, having no meaning until or without the creation, and thus is figurative when speaking of heaven and hell.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #4 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 16:15:01 »



Offline Reformer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2541
  • Manna: 75
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #5 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 20:29:14 »

LaSpino3:

   I will get back to you on your questions and comments before the evening is over. Stay tuned.

Thank you,

Buff

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #5 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 20:29:14 »

Offline Reformer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2541
  • Manna: 75
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #6 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 22:06:46 »
LaSpino:

    “No, heaven and hell are both real places, and if heaven is eternal, so is hell.”
   
    On this particular point, it will be covered and addressed in either Part 2 or Part 3. Please look for it.

    “Your article’s title [is] ‘endless torture.’ Question, is there a difference in the meaning of torture and punishment? I have no knowledge of God ever torturing anyone.”

    If there’s a difference, it would be by degrees only. “Torture” is the “inflicting of severe pain.” “Punishment” is “harsh or injurious treatment.” Similar definitions are also available in Webster. Since the ungodly will receive eternal punishment by natural fire, as per the literalist, such severe treatment would be torture in any sense of the imagination.

    If a particular word coincides with the subject matter, although not specifically used, and in this case torture does coincide, it is admissible.

    “Do you believe all mortals are composed of, 1 Thessalonians 5:23, ‘SPIRIT and SOUL and BODY’ be preserved ‘blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.’  If a person doesn’t understand that we are all composed of body, soul, and spirit, then I can understand your thinking, the body dies, and that’s the end of it.”

    Yes to you spirit, soul, and body. No to your remark “and that’s the end of it.” The body dies but the believer’s spirit, the real person, will await the general resurrection somewhere in God’s celestial paradise.

    I dealt with this subject in detail recently. If you cannot find it in the Archives, let me know and I’ll get you a copy or tell you where to find it. In that column, I reference and address all of what you talk about in the last half of your post above. Thanks for your input.

Cheers in Jesus,

Buff

Offline Norton

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1197
  • Manna: 34
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #7 on: Mon May 21, 2018 - 09:23:38 »
The idea that God created every person with an immortal soul, or that God will give every person an immortal soul sometime after they die is very questionable. The general Biblical idea seems to be that for the saved, "mortality will put on immortality" and for the unsaved, destruction and death will overtake them. However; the book of Revelation does show us a scene of unending living torment in a lake of fire.

Online 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6888
  • Manna: 210
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #8 on: Mon May 21, 2018 - 10:14:58 »
I pointed out below that the word "place" signified a physical entity which existed only upon God's creation of the physical universe.  The same is true of "time".  Time is a physical entity having no meaning outside of this physical universe.  In fact, there is the concept that time really is a result of the Second Law of Thermodynamics and a result of entropy.  I tend to think that may well be true.  Therefore with respect to heaven and hell there really is no such thing as time.  And therefore no such concept as "forever"  and "eternity" is actually a state of being, not a measure of time since time does not exist in the spiritual realm.  Similarly the concept if "endless" is meaningless.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #8 on: Mon May 21, 2018 - 10:14:58 »

Offline LaSpino3

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2329
  • Manna: 83
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #9 on: Mon May 21, 2018 - 15:31:14 »
The precept of, "everlasting, eternal, forever, and forever and ever," all are uses in the future sense. The following terms are as strong as any in the Greek, expressing endless duration. There is nothing in the context of the following verses or in the nature of the subject itself to indicate that they are used differently, or have some symbolic, mysterious or unknown meaning. The antithesis in several of the following passages sets the tone for their meaning beyond any doubt.

Matt.25:41-46, Jesus said, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire -- these shall go away into everlasting punishment."

2 Thes.1:8-9, "Them that know not God, and obey not the gospel -- shall be punished with everlasting destruction etc."

The following verses express future punishment by words and phrases which imply forever and eternal.

Matt.12:31-32, Jesus said, "Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. -- whosoever speaks against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

Heb.6:8, "That which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned." Compare with,

Matt;13:30, Jesus said, "Gather -- first the tares = (sinners) and bind them in bundles to burn them:"

Heb.10:26-27, "for if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

Matt.10:28, Jesus said, "Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him = (God) which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Heb.6:4, "It is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to open shame."

The lake of fire is to suffer the final wrath of God. If a man dies in sin, having rejected the saving work of the Lord Jesus, they cannot be with Christ. Judgment without mercy, their end is destruction. Upon a sinner’s death, night falls, it will be a time when no man can work. Heaven’s door closed forever to the unholy and the unjust. God has spoken, we have been warned. His voice will be heard.

LaSpino

Offline BTR

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 152
  • Manna: 7
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #10 on: Mon May 21, 2018 - 17:28:11 »
'which is able to destroy both soul and {body} in hell."

Body? what would that mean? Also reading the Lazarus story, could just be a figurate story I guess, but noticed 'dip his "finger" in the water to cool my "tongue."
Sounds a bit physical. 


Offline soterion

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3792
  • Manna: 139
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #11 on: Mon May 21, 2018 - 17:40:04 »
'which is able to destroy both soul and {body} in hell."

Body? what would that mean? Also reading the Lazarus story, could just be a figurate story I guess, but noticed 'dip his "finger" in the water to cool my "tongue."
Sounds a bit physical.

Well, the Lazarus story is a parable, and the setting is spiritual, so it sounds a bit figurative to me. ::smile::

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12147
  • Manna: 349
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #12 on: Mon May 21, 2018 - 17:42:38 »

Offline Reformer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2541
  • Manna: 75
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #13 on: Mon May 21, 2018 - 19:03:44 »

Say, Norton:

   In reference to "spirit" and "soul," I suggest you research my recent columns on the subject for a different, and perhaps even better, view. You will find them here on the GraceCentered Forum. Below is a portion of one of those columns.
________

   Here are my observations. Many bodies of the saints were resurrected, not at Jesus’ death, but “after His resurrection.” The names of the saints are not mentioned. As to whom they “appeared to” in Jerusalem is not stated. Nor is it revealed why they were raised and appeared to many. My consensus is that by appearing to many, they demonstrated a future resurrection for all of God’s saints.
 
    Yet there are mysteries associated with this momentous occurrence. Did these resurrected saints die again? We assume they did. But if not, it may have been that they—their spirits or real selves—were simply called from their celestial “residence” to repossess their bodies and appear to many as a manifestation of a collective future resurrection—at which time they then returned to the unseen abode of departed spirits to await the general resurrection.
 
    As to Lazarus, my take is that his spirit, the actual Lazarus, was called from the province of departed spirits and reunited with his biological remains when Jesus summoned both from the tomb.
 
    As I have previously advocated, and demonstrated from many scriptures, the nucleus of a person is his/her spirit. The same was true of Jesus. At biological death He “yielded up His spirit”—the authentic Jesus. His spirit, the real Jesus, “was not abandoned to Hades [unseen abode of departed spirits], nor did His flesh see corruption” [Peter, in Acts 2:31]. Two substances or articles are mentioned here—spirit and flesh. [See Thayer & Strong on “Hades” in Acts 2:31.]
 
    When Steven was being stoned to death by religious sectarians, he cried out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”—Acts 7:59. “Breath” is not meant here, as per the Greek. Steven’s center or core was his spirit, not his breath or his flesh. A believer’s flesh decays. A believer’s spirit continues to live after physical death.
 
    Do you recall how our Lord was troubled at the tomb of Lazarus? He became very emotional and wept. The record says, “When Jesus saw her [Mary] weeping, and the Jews who had come with her also weeping, He was deeply moved in his spirit and greatly troubled” [John 11:33].
 
    Jesus was both flesh and spirit, as we all are. I looked this verse up in Thayer’s Greek Lexicon, and he details “spirit” as “to strike one’s spirit with fear and dread.” The point is when any of us become troubled, our inner self, the spirit, experiences distress or grieve. We are more than flesh, bones, and blood. We have an inner core called “spirit”—the very essence of a person, for “the body without the spirit is dead” [James 2:26].
 
    The Lord gives us “a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him” [Eph. 1:17]. No, not a “breath” of wisdom! Only the inner man—his spirit—can know wisdom and knowledge. His flesh and breathing apparatus are incapable of deciphering or understanding either.

Buff


Offline BTR

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 152
  • Manna: 7
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #14 on: Mon May 21, 2018 - 19:39:43 »
Well, the Lazarus story is a parable, and the setting is spiritual, so it sounds a bit figurative to me. ::smile::

Yeah, that's why I mentioned that it could be figurative. I have read points from some on that story that could go the other way.

"Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."


But this though, "both soul and body". Body is physical, you think God gives them a resurrected body then destroys it? Spirits dont have a body, then again this verse doesn't mention a spirit. The body that sons of God recieve is an incoruptable body. So then this verse may also be figurative. I have a hard time accepting the idea of the lost being tortured without end for not believing. Destroy as in to put an end to; extinguish. Eternal life is a gift we are not born with it.

but then theres this.

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
-Rev. 14:11

Unless these are apostates who have been born again at one point?  Or this is figurative also. "in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:" "he" in the presence of.  And the smoke of "their" torment ascendeth up and "they" have no rest.


« Last Edit: Mon May 21, 2018 - 20:39:04 by BTR »

Offline Norton

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1197
  • Manna: 34
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #15 on: Mon May 21, 2018 - 21:05:56 »
The Rich man and Lazarus is a real event, a prophecy, hidden in the form of a parable. What real event? The raising of Lazarus by Jesus. "Father Abraham" did, after all, send Lazarus back to earth as a warning to the Sadducees, but just as Jesus said, even if one came back from the dead, they would not listen. The prophetic parable is probably not meant to give us much real information about Heaven or Hell.

Offline soterion

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3792
  • Manna: 139
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #16 on: Mon May 21, 2018 - 21:26:52 »
The Rich man and Lazarus is a real event, a prophecy, hidden in the form of a parable. What real event? The raising of Lazarus by Jesus. "Father Abraham" did, after all, send Lazarus back to earth as a warning to the Sadducees, but just as Jesus said, even if one came back from the dead, they would not listen. The prophetic parable is probably not meant to give us much real information about Heaven or Hell.

Except for the last sentence, I can't agree.

I don't see anybody being raised in the Luke 16 parable, Father Abraham doesn't have the authority to send anybody back, and the Lazarus of John 11 and 12 doesn't fit the description of a poor man covered in sores and being laid at somebody's gate, while his sisters seem to be doing pretty well.

Offline Reformer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2541
  • Manna: 75
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #17 on: Mon May 21, 2018 - 21:40:33 »
BTR:

    If I might try to clarify the Matthew passage you quoted and add a few comments. “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell”  [Matt. 10:28].

    You then added, “Spirits don’t have a body, then again this verse doesn’t mention a spirit.” “Spirit” & “soul” are often used interchangeably in the scriptures. In the passage above, “spirit” would be a better translation.

    Thayer, in his Greek Lexicon, says of “soul” in Matthew 10:28, “The soul as an essence, which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death, distinguished from other parts of the body.” Thayer is referencing “spirit” here.

    Too, you note that “spirits don’t have a body.” Well, not a physical body of course. Yet a spirit has a form. “Form” can be understood as a shape, a configuration, a design, or a spiritual body

    If I’m correct, God Himself, although a spirit, has a form. “His voice you have never heard, His form you have never seen” [John 5:37].

    My point is: Man is more than flesh, blood, bones, and skin. He has a spirit, the very core of his existence. When Jesus and the repentant criminal died on their crosses, their fleshly substances were buried. Their spirits were transferred to the Paradise sector of Hades. “Hades” means the “unseen abode of departed spirits.”

    And as Peter says about the Lord in Acts 2, “He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption” [2:31].

Blessings,

Buff

Offline Norton

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1197
  • Manna: 34
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #18 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 08:45:12 »
Except for the last sentence, I can't agree.

I don't see anybody being raised in the Luke 16 parable, Father Abraham doesn't have the authority to send anybody back, and the Lazarus of John 11 and 12 doesn't fit the description of a poor man covered in sores and being laid at somebody's gate, while his sisters seem to be doing pretty well.
It would not have been a parable if everything fit. The stated purpose of Jesus' parables was to hid the sayings from the Jewish leaders. Enough fit that after Jesus was crucified, chills would have gone done the Jewish leaders backs, if it ever hit them. Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead and their response was not belief, but to plot to kill Lazarus and Jesus. It happened just as Jesus predicted.

Yeah, I am perplexed that the parable is in Luke, but not the miracle, while the miracle is in John, but not the parable.

Offline LaSpino3

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2329
  • Manna: 83
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #19 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 11:08:46 »
Soterion
Never is a proper name used in a parable! A parable is a fable or allegorical relation or representation of something real in nature or life. Parables use figures like trees, sheep, phrases like rich men, ten virgins, but never proper names.

Matthew 10:28, "fear not them which kill the body, --- but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Here's where we have to be very careful, there are at least 6 Greek words, all different that translate to the English "destroy." If were not careful and us the wrong word and the wrong presentation of the word, meaning is it used as a figure of speech, literally, as a metaphor, etc, were going to come up with an incorrect understanding of the verse. Several points, the word "destroy" used in Matthew 10, is used as a metaphor, meaning to devote or give over to eternal misery, NOT to annielate. 

Point 2, The use of the phrase, "soul and body" in Matthew 10, are evidence enough that both will be in the eternal world. So we must conclude from the verse, both soul and body are lost in hell. Therefore, what the verse reveals to us is, there are elements of suffering adopted in hell to the material world (the physicla body) as well as the spirititual (soul and spirit) assuring us that the three will exist from that point forward, eternal suffering in hell for the lost.

"The worm shall not die, neither will the fire be quenched." The worm points to the fallen, and to their sins.

Laspino3

Offline Reformer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2541
  • Manna: 75
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #20 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 12:54:44 »
Laspino3:

     It might be good that you do a further study on “soul.” In better versions, Geneses 2:7 reads, as respects to Adam, “The Lord breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living being.” The English Standard Version renders “a living creature.”

   Both “being” and “creature” are correct. Therefore, “soul,” in its authentic setting, refers to the whole man—his biological existence.

    Additionally, God made man in His own image—not man’s physical form, but his spirit. Flesh and blood, as we know them, cannot enter the eternal kingdom of God [1 Cor.15:50]. So God is not flesh and blood. Yet He has a form—a spiritual form [John 5:37].

    Paul clarifies by saying, “If there is a natural [physical] body, there is also a spiritual body” [1 Cor. 15:44].

    The man himself, his soul, returns to the dust of the ground. His spirit, which was made in God’s image, will exist beyond the grave, as Jesus’ did. When the end of all things arrive, man’s spirit will reunite with his biological remains at the resurrection—remains which will have been transformed to be like Jesus’ glorious, spiritual body.

   “For we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly [earthly] body to be like His glorious body” [Phil. 3:21].

Buff
« Last Edit: Tue May 22, 2018 - 13:00:00 by Reformer »

Offline soterion

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3792
  • Manna: 139
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #21 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 16:38:30 »
It would not have been a parable if everything fit. The stated purpose of Jesus' parables was to hid the sayings from the Jewish leaders. Enough fit that after Jesus was crucified, chills would have gone done the Jewish leaders backs, if it ever hit them. Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead and their response was not belief, but to plot to kill Lazarus and Jesus. It happened just as Jesus predicted.

Yeah, I am perplexed that the parable is in Luke, but not the miracle, while the miracle is in John, but not the parable.

What do you mean by "fit"? I can't agree that the two sections of scripture refer to the same Lazarus. It's too much of a stretch with no real link.

Offline soterion

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3792
  • Manna: 139
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #22 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 17:12:03 »
Soterion
Never is a proper name used in a parable! A parable is a fable or allegorical relation or representation of something real in nature or life. Parables use figures like trees, sheep, phrases like rich men, ten virgins, but never proper names.

Laspino3

I appreciate your thoughts, but regarding the definition of a parable, mine is different. As it is, I don't know if there is some singular widely-accepted-by-all definition. I have never heard the rule that a parable cannot have a proper name for one of the people in it.

I see no reason a proper name cannot be used, if that name has a meaning that helps in understanding the parable. If I understand correctly, Lazarus is equivalent to the Hebrew name Eleazar, which means something like "God helps me" or "one who is helped by God." It is certainly true in the parable that nobody was a helper to Lazarus but God, and that name can greatly emphasis his plight while at the gate of the rich man, until his death.

I guess the biggest reason I accept the "Rich Man and Lazarus" story as a parable is the fact that it follows closely another parable, starting in Luke 16:1, that begins exactly the same way, with the words, "There was a certain rich man..." Both parables teach the same basic lesson, but from two different perspectives.

Offline TonkaTim

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2195
  • Manna: 57
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #23 on: Wed May 23, 2018 - 04:09:34 »
I appreciate your thoughts, but regarding the definition of a parable, mine is different. As it is, I don't know if there is some singular widely-accepted-by-all definition. I have never heard the rule that a parable cannot have a proper name for one of the people in it.

I see no reason a proper name cannot be used, if that name has a meaning that helps in understanding the parable. If I understand correctly, Lazarus is equivalent to the Hebrew name Eleazar, which means something like "God helps me" or "one who is helped by God." It is certainly true in the parable that nobody was a helper to Lazarus but God, and that name can greatly emphasis his plight while at the gate of the rich man, until his death.

I guess the biggest reason I accept the "Rich Man and Lazarus" story as a parable is the fact that it follows closely another parable, starting in Luke 16:1, that begins exactly the same way, with the words, "There was a certain rich man..." Both parables teach the same basic lesson, but from two different perspectives.

Another reason is one can not reasonable make the assumption the Lazarus of John 11 & 12 is the same Lazarus of Luke 16. Why? Well because the Lazarus of the Luke 16 parable is a poor beggar. In the gospels we find that Lazarus' family is not poor. In John 11 we find that Lazarus has sisters Mary & Martha:
John 11
"1Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha. 2(It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick."

The fact that Mary, Lazarus' sisters, is the one "which anointed the Lord" shows they were not poor because she had the wealth to:
John12
"3Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment"

We also find in Luke 10 that Martha own her own home;
38Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. 39And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word.

Which proves Lazarus' family was not poor & thus was not a beggar. Even if Lazarus did not have wealth himself, the scriptures prove his sisters did & were kind generous, loving & loved him, thus again this Lazarus was not the poor beggar never knowing good only "evil things" as described in the parable of Luke 16.

Offline Norton

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1197
  • Manna: 34
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #24 on: Wed May 23, 2018 - 08:42:37 »
Most here seem to agree that the Rich man and Lazarus is a parable. Now someone tell us what thoughts or lessons Jesus was trying to convey with the parable. I have given my opinion, but it is not set in concrete. I would like to hear other opinions.

Offline soterion

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3792
  • Manna: 139
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #25 on: Wed May 23, 2018 - 09:55:43 »
Most here seem to agree that the Rich man and Lazarus is a parable. Now someone tell us what thoughts or lessons Jesus was trying to convey with the parable. I have given my opinion, but it is not set in concrete. I would like to hear other opinions.

What stands out to me is the ultimate consequence of lack of compassion for the needy.

I compare this to Matthew 25:41-46. Failure to use God given resources wisely and compassionately, when able (James 2:15-16), results in judgment. The rich man was completely selfish with zero sympathy for even the poor beggar at his gate.

In Luke 16:15, Jesus said that those things which are prized by men are an abomination to God. Earlier we read the the Pharisees, who are lovers of money, were hearing Jesus. No doubt, the previous parable, The Unjust (but Prudent) Steward, and this one got them on edge. Jesus' message here is for all.

No doubt we can take away from the parable to not wait to reach out to loved ones. The rich man wanted his brothers saved from his own fate, but it was too late for him to do anything about it.

Some parables deal with wise use of God given resources; time, money, health, etc. God wants what He has given to us to be used to glorify Him. Showing compassion is one of those ways we can glorify God. Other ways are take care of family, plan for the future (Luke 16:1-13), evangelize, pray, etc.

Offline Reformer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2541
  • Manna: 75
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #26 on: Wed May 23, 2018 - 11:44:14 »

TonkaTim:

   I appreciate your remarks on the Lazarus of Luke 16 and the resurrected Lazarus. I agree. The two accounts are as different as light and day.

   However, I'm not sure how the contributors to "Endless Torture" got side-tracked and started a dialogue on parables. Nonetheless, the thoughts and ideas are interesting.

Buff

Offline soterion

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3792
  • Manna: 139
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #27 on: Wed May 23, 2018 - 11:50:43 »
TonkaTim:

   I appreciate your remarks on the Lazarus of Luke 16 and the resurrected Lazarus. I agree. The two accounts are as different as light and day.

   However, I'm not sure how the contributors to "Endless Torture" got side-tracked and started a dialogue on parables. Nonetheless, the thoughts and ideas are interesting.

Buff

You think this a side-track? HA! ::wink::

Well, it is, and I apologize for my part in it, but you just haven't seen enough of the threads here to see how common this is. There is a discussion in the General Discussion forum about a comment in the news that Pope Francis made about homosexuals, and the latest posts are about predestination.

Of course, I am a part of that side-track as well. Maybe I need to just walk away instead of commenting off topic. ::pondering::

Offline Reformer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2541
  • Manna: 75
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #28 on: Wed May 23, 2018 - 11:55:56 »

Soterion:

   I hear you and agree. It seems every topic gets side-tracked along the way. Anyway, stay put. You are posting a lot of good off-track remarks!

Buff

Offline soterion

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3792
  • Manna: 139
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #29 on: Wed May 23, 2018 - 12:06:58 »
Soterion:

   I hear you and agree. It seems every topic gets side-tracked along the way. Anyway, stay put. You are posting a lot of good off-track remarks!

Buff

I appreciate that, Buff.

I may have some comment regarding the topic here, but I will wait until your Part 2 and see what is said there.

Offline Reformer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2541
  • Manna: 75
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Endless Torture
« Reply #30 on: Wed May 23, 2018 - 12:31:53 »

Soterion:

  "I may have some comment regarding the topic here, but I will wait until your Part 2 and see what is said there."

   I appreciate all responses, whether negative or positive, as long as they are offered in a spirit of love.

Thanks,

Buff