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Author Topic: Ephesians 2:8  (Read 36588 times)

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Online yogi bear

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Ephesians 2:8
« on: Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 11:21:10 »
Quote
Ephesians 2:8 (KJV)
8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:8 (ASV)
8  for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Ephesians 2:8 (BBE)
8  Because by grace you have salvation through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is given by God:

Ephesians 2:8 (HCSB)
8  For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—
]

We discuss this verse often and many a different view comes from this verse. I would like to take a little time to try to get to what is meant by this verse.

What is meant by you are saved by grace?

Is grace an action that is done like coming to faith?

Is grace like repenting?

Is grace like a v waving of a magic won?

Grace is Gods plan to redeem man is it not?

Does it have conditions such as faith or repentance or confess Christ or even baptism in Christ name?

Could it be that God put in place a plan to save man even while we were yet dead in our sins and it involves all above  but the plan is grace because nothing we can do will ever make us fit fr righteousness with out Gods plan to redeem?

We need to understand just what saved by grace is according to the biblical meaning and not of our personal view.

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Ephesians 2:8
« on: Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 11:21:10 »

Offline Alan

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1 on: Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 11:37:59 »
Grace is simply forgiveness by God for man's shortcomings, we are unable to be perfect specimens therefore grace is given to bridge that gap. Grace by no means is a God given measure of "do-nothingness" for the anti-works ministries of today, as Christians, we are called to go above and beyond that of mere men. 

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1 on: Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 11:37:59 »

Online yogi bear

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #2 on: Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 12:02:27 »
It is achieved through faith so what does that mean? Faith in the faith? Faith in the gospel? How does faith come into play just what is meant?

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #2 on: Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 12:02:27 »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #3 on: Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 12:04:00 »
This is a foundational doctrine.

If this is not understand, how can you go on to any other topic?

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #3 on: Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 12:04:00 »

Online yogi bear

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #4 on: Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 12:31:52 »
This is a foundational doctrine.

If this is not understand, how can you go on to any other topic?
Then give me your understanding not just some empty comment. I get nothing of what you understand by what you offered up.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #4 on: Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 12:31:52 »



Online Jaime

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #5 on: Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 12:36:08 »
Apparently there is MUCH misunderstanding on this and other foundational truths. Probably best not to assume people agree on anything.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #5 on: Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 12:36:08 »

Online yogi bear

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #6 on: Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 13:27:44 »
Yes we all agree that we are saved by grace through faith no doubt but just what does that mean? The answer to that is what we need to bring into unity for there are as many different answers to that as there are posters on this forum.

So in your opinion just what does that statement mean? How would go go about explaining that to an unbeliever? Does it have more than one meaning? Can we just believe what ever we want or does it have substance with it and a true meaning that all should be in unity on?

Offline RB

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #7 on: Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 15:56:16 »
We need to understand just what saved by grace is according to the biblical meaning and not of our personal view.
Greetings Yogi, I would be happy to discuss this verse with you, if you would with me. Every time I come to one of your thread, you sooner or later (generally, sooner) leave. I will give you the true biblical sense in which we MUSt understand Ephesians  2:8,9 in order for those precious scriptures to flow with ALL of the word of God producing a perfect harmony on one precious and glorious truth, that Salvation IS of the Lord. Would you like to continue this discussion, or are you going to avoid me as you do often? I'm here to be your friend, not your enemy, and I trust you feel the same toward me. RB
« Last Edit: Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 16:08:08 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #8 on: Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 16:05:33 »
How would go about explaining that to an unbeliever?
Yogi, God's children are NOT called to explain any truth to unbelievers in the sense in which you understand unbelievers. We are called to teach God's sheep and feed them, for gospel truth to them that are lost is foolishness. Would care for me to prove this, I certainly can.  Would you disagree that God's elect are unbelievers in one sense,  UNTIL they see a particular truth they are considering, and when they see it.......THEN they believe. Need proof?

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #8 on: Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 16:05:33 »

Online yogi bear

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #9 on: Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 18:57:31 »
Red please feel free to express yourself on this thread. I left it open for all to express what they understand and would be glad to hear your understanding. That does not mean that I am going to fight with you over this as you and sword master like to do but am willing to hear your view and discuss with you as long as the temperament stays cool.

Offline Jason_NC

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #10 on: Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 19:23:29 »
Grace is a choice by God to credit the righteousness of Jesus to us and place our sins on Jesus.

It is bestowed (from eternity past) when we come to faith in Jesus Christ.  Both the faith and the grace are from God.

Online Jaime

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #11 on: Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 21:50:59 »
Faith comes from God in the sense that faith comes from hearing or reading the Word of God. Romans 10:17.

Offline RB

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #12 on: Wed Oct 18, 2017 - 04:08:01 »
Grace is a choice by God to credit the righteousness of Jesus to us and place our sins on Jesus.
A short, but very true defintion.
Quote from: Jason_NC
It is bestowed (from eternity past) when we come to faith in Jesus Christ.
Well, some may ask you...which one Jason do you believe~from eternity past, or, when we believe?

The truth is this: Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God (during our lifetime) .....YET, the gift to have this faith comes by GRACE ALONE on the behalf of Jesus Christ, (from eternity past) based on his obedience and righteousness. Faith is the result of the new birth, NOT the cause thereof.

John 3:1-8 was given by the Holy Spirit for one sole purpose and that was "to reveal this important truth, that regeneration proceeds faith, and any other work of righteousness that may come from a man". That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and all through the scriptures flesh is described as impossible to please God apart from the Spirit of God indwelling a man.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 8:5-9~"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
Many great and important truths taught in these few scriptures! A man would do himself service by pondering each phrase carefully.

So, my question to you Yogi is this: "can man in flesh please God apart from being FIRST born of God, or born again"? Think about this question while I give my understanding of Ephesians 2:8,9.
« Last Edit: Wed Oct 18, 2017 - 06:37:30 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #13 on: Wed Oct 18, 2017 - 07:42:53 »
A short, but very true defintion. Well, some may ask you...which one Jason do you believe~from eternity past, or, when we believe?
That may well describe some aspect of grace, but that is not a definition.  To present that as a definition exhibits the same fallacy as Michael2012 in his discussion about faith. It is a description of one aspect of grace but it does not really define or explain what grace is. Grace is really so much more that just that.
The truth is this: Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God (during our lifetime) .....YET, the gift to have this faith comes by GRACE ALONE on the behalf of Jesus Christ, (from eternity past) based on his obedience and righteousness. Faith is the result of the new birth, NOT the cause thereof.
Absolutely not.  We are saved BY grace THROUGH faith.  Being saved is the new birth. The new creature does not need to be saved; the new creature has been saved.
Quote
"But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise." (Gal 3:25-29)
And if you are heirs you are saved. To be born again is to be saved. How saved? BY grace THROUGH faith.
Quote
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come (2Cor 5:17).
John 3:1-8 was given by the Holy Spirit for one sole purpose and that was "to reveal this important truth, that regeneration proceeds faith, and any other work of righteousness that may come from a man". That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and all through the scriptures flesh is described as impossible to please God apart from the Spirit of God indwelling a man. Many great and important truth taught in these few scriptures! A man would do himself service by pondering each phrase carefully.
Wrong again.  The flesh does not cease to exist with regeneration.  The flesh is always there; at least until death that is.  Born of water and the Spirit is the new birth; it is regeneration.  It is salvation.  It is the result of having the sins forgiven and having received the gift of the Holy Spirit.  But the flesh is still there.  It is not flesh that is described as impossible to please God, rather it is being controlled by the flesh that keeps one from pleasing God (read Romans 7).  In regeneration, the flesh is not changed; the new creature has the same flesh; rather it is the spirit that is reborn.  It is the spirit, not the flesh, not the body, that was dead in trespasses and sins
So, my question to you Yogi is this: "can man in flesh please God apart from being FIRST born of God, or born again"?
Yes, even the new creature, the regenerated man, is still in the flesh; the flesh is not gone; but he is not controlled by the flesh but by the Spirit.
Quote
"... for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God (Rom 8:13-14).
  Being born of God is to be saved.  Again, saved how? BY grace THROUGH faith.

Offline RB

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #14 on: Wed Oct 18, 2017 - 10:22:09 »
That may well describe some aspect of grace, but that is not a definition.  To present that as a definition exhibits the same fallacy as Michael2012 in his discussion about faith. It is a description of one aspect of grace but it does not really define or explain what grace is. Grace is really so much more that just that.
4WD, that was not my definition of grace, and maybe not Jason's, but a short version of his.

I know very well sir, what God's grace is according to God's definition, one that you do not, based on many posts that I have read of yours. Here is my understanding of the true grace of God.

DEFINITION OF GRACE~Grace~Favour, favourable or benignant regard or its manifestation; favour or goodwill, in
contradistinction to right or obligation, as the ground of a concession.

Near-synonyms in the Bible include favour, mercy, compassion, kindness, and goodness (1st Corinthians 2:13).
 
Notice the synonymous use of favour and grace in Abraham’s speech to God (Genesis 18:3; 19:19). God is gracious to whom He chooses to be gracious; compare the words (Exodus 33:19; Romans 9:15-16). Which you so vehemently reject.

Grace is more than mercy, if both are properly defined, because mercy only withholds judgment. Grace not only withholds judgment but also bring honor and reward as additional positive gifts.

The Person of Jesus Christ was full of grace and truth, thus true grace is ONLY to be received given based on Him (John 1:14-18).

Jesus was full of grace in His life, in His ministry, and as the substitutionary propitiation of God for his people. The scriptures are plain that God’s grace in Jesus is only for the elect (John 6:37-39; 10:26-29; 17:2-3; Romans 8:28-33; 2nd Timothy1:9).

When considering grace as favour, we must define it as merited, unmerited, or demerited favour. Sin has put us way outside God’s favor and under His righteous and terrible wrath upon sinners.

Merited favour would be a reward for good works, so the Catholics and blinded conditionalists teach, just as you do. Unmerited favour would be a gift to a neutral party, so we see the preservation of elect angels.

Demerited favour would be a gift to those deserving judgment, so the blessed truth of the gospel. So,  True grace is demerited favour without obligation, worth, or conditions. Works are totally excluded.

By God’s definition, grace and works are mutually exclusive by their definition (Romans 11:5-6).  If a man works for righteousness before God, even by faith, it is debt and not grace (Rom 4:4-5).

Grace used as an acronym may properly define Biblical grace … God Rewards And Clears Enemies. Grace = God does not judge and punish the elect as they do deserve, but He does honor and reward them with blessings they do not deserve. This enhanced God's definition of grace over any that man can give!

Sir, do you have a better definition of grace, if so let me hear it.

I'll address your other points later.
« Last Edit: Wed Oct 18, 2017 - 10:32:30 by RB »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #15 on: Wed Oct 18, 2017 - 12:20:10 »
]

We discuss this verse often and many a different view comes from this verse. I would like to take a little time to try to get to what is meant by this verse.

What is meant by you are saved by grace?

Is grace an action that is done like coming to faith?

Is grace like repenting?

Is grace like a v waving of a magic won?

Grace is Gods plan to redeem man is it not?

Does it have conditions such as faith or repentance or confess Christ or even baptism in Christ name?

Could it be that God put in place a plan to save man even while we were yet dead in our sins and it involves all above  but the plan is grace because nothing we can do will ever make us fit fr righteousness with out Gods plan to redeem?

We need to understand just what saved by grace is according to the biblical meaning and not of our personal view.
Good topic, yogi.

If I may, I'd like to muddy the waters a little further, rather than giving my interpretation.

The first thing to point out is that this verse is atypical, or extraordinary, in its wording.  What I mean is that the way that "saved" is used/translated in this verse is unusual compared to all the other verses in the Bible.

Also, there is some ambiguity in the wording, in our translation.  This not of yourselves.  What is this?  Grace, Faith, Salvation, or something else?  The answer has major implications for our theology.

Jarrod

Offline Alan

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #16 on: Wed Oct 18, 2017 - 12:42:32 »
Good topic, yogi.


Also, there is some ambiguity in the wording, in our translation.  This not of yourselves.  What is this?  Grace, Faith, Salvation, or something else?  The answer has major implications for our theology.

Jarrod


My thoughts have always leaned toward salvation.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #17 on: Wed Oct 18, 2017 - 13:22:39 »

My thoughts have always leaned toward salvation.

I agree, if sentence structure has any bearing, and it DOES.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #18 on: Wed Oct 18, 2017 - 13:44:16 »
Sir, do you have a better definition of grace, if so let me hear it.
The problem we face here like the problem that Michael2012 ran into with the word faith is that it is not so much a matter of defining the word that we are concerned about; rather it is more a concept than a word definition that we need to consider.  And I believe that is actually what you have tried to do, albeit with some biased Reformed thinking entanglement included.  For example you interjected the notion of "works" or rather the notion of the lack of works into your discussion.  You noted that grace and works were mutually exclusive. But that is only the case when one considers grace to be "saving grace"; and even there once the term works includes any other than works of law that is not true.  When God grants the believer the answer to his prayer, is it not by God's grace that it is granted?  So when we read that we are saved by grace, that essentially limits the meaning [or the definition] of both the words "saved" and "grace" to the context in which both are used.

So then, as applied to salvation the term “grace” has three basic connotations. It refers to the source of salvation, i.e., to grace as the attribute of God’s nature that desires our salvation and impels him to accomplish it through the incarnate Christ. It also refers to the content of our salvation, i.e., to the actual gift we receive from God when he saves us. In this sense grace is the double cure of salvation, justification on the one hand and regeneration-sanctification on the other. Finally it refers to the way in which God saves us, i.e., the method or system God uses to bestow salvation upon us. And we must be certain which of the three basic connotations is in play when we read about grace in the Bible.


All of which takes us away from the topic at hand but is related.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #19 on: Wed Oct 18, 2017 - 15:29:26 »
GRACE of the Greeks or  3 Graces or Muses were not nice girls but they performed at the pagan temples promising salvation.  Some of the MUSES (Revelation 18) were Apollon's musical worship team at Delphi just up the road from Corinth.

Scripture is frequently in forms of Parallelism.  Jesus was the Visible-Audible bringer of Grace which is God's power to refrain from things people think they can do with abandoned.

Jesus said that truth had been hidden in parables or figures of speech from the foundation of the world to fool those who make merchandise of God Isaiah 48.

Grace like Word or Light is personified



A tomato is a GIFT OF GOD since I cannot CREATE ONE.  Everything is free of charge including HIS WORD.

Eccl. 3:13 And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God.
Eccl. 5:19 Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth, and hath given him power to eat thereof, and to take his portion, and to rejoice in his labour; this is the gift of God.

God will let you starve if you refuse to plant, water and let God do HIS work

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #20 on: Wed Oct 18, 2017 - 17:01:00 »
The Graces


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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #21 on: Wed Oct 18, 2017 - 19:17:13 »
The Graces


I have no idea whatsoever what that means or even what you were trying to convey.  And to be honest, I don't think I care.  I will come back later with some comments on the post before this last one.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #22 on: Wed Oct 18, 2017 - 19:56:19 »
I made it pretty clear that GRACE or GRACES in the pagan world were worshipped.  The definition of GRACE has some pretty mean meanings.

Paul OFTEN used well-known pagan practices to CONTRAST with the true Lord-God.

While people are spending time giving their attention (worship) to hired performers, People are starved to death for lack of the FREE water of the word and are TAKEN CAPTIVE (Amos 8; Isaiah 5 tell the story of God washing His hands of people.

Paul was well educated in the classics and mythological writings of the Jews he calls JEWISH FABLES.  You might want to take a look at some of the classics which pulled the DARK AGES out of religious oppression.

The Graces (Charities)
The three beautiful nymphs and minor goddesses were called Aglaia, Thalia, and Euphrosyne were generally considered as the Graces. However, other Graces were also mentioned in some sources of Greek mythology including Peitho (persuasion), Pasithea (shining) and Cleta (sound).

The three goddesses generally accepted as the Graces represented grace, charm and beauty also had other qualities that they were associated with:

    Aglaia represented elegance, brightness and splendor
    Thalia represented youth, beauty and good cheer
    Euphrosyne represented mirth and or joyfulness

The main role of the Three Graces was to bestow beauty, charm, and goodness on young women and to give joy and the feeling of well being to people in general. Closely associated with the Nine Muses they were also considered patrons of music, poetry and dance.

The Muses show up in Revelation 18 along with the instrument players John defined as sorcerers.  The Muses or musicians are well-documented as LOCUSTS and Apollo or Apollon was the Leader of his musical team used to induce KOMA and to pass the plate.

Invocations to the Muses (Charities)
The Graces brought joy and goodwill to both gods and mortals. Like the Nine Muses, they were believed to endow artists and poets with the ability to create beautiful works of art. According to the traditions and beliefs of the Ancient Greeks, people would invoke the aid of the Graces to guide and assist them in their art, musical compositions, work, songs and dance. The invocation took the form of a prayer for divine inspiration from the goddesses.

This is the role claimed for "worship teams" as well prophesied in Revelation 18

Apollon is the only personified SPIRIT: Mousagetēs 1 doric for Mousēgetēs leader of the Muses, Lat. Musagetes, of Apollo, Plat1 Mous-a_getēs,


The Three Graces (Charities) and the Charitesia
The Charitesia were annual competitions and games in honor of the Graces. There were athletic competitions, literary, musical and dramatic contests (which took place in the theater). The Charitesia festival was held at Orchomenos near the modern town of Kalpaki. The derivation of the word Charitesia meant 'to win someone's favor'. During the Charitesia nightly dances took place.
The Attributes of the Three Graces (Charities)
The ancient Greek gods and goddesses were associated with special symbols and attributes that were depicted in the pictures, mosaics, statues and images of the deities making them instantly recognisable. The attributes of the Three Graces included

THE KHARITES (Charites) or Graces, were the three goddesses of grace, beauty, adornment, mirth, festivity, dance and song. A number of "younger Kharites" presided over the other pleasures of life, including play, amusement, banqueting, floral decoration, happiness, rest and relaxation.

The Kharites were attendants of the goddesses Aphrodite and Hera. One named Kharis, was the wife of Hephaistos. Another, Pasithea, was married to Hypnos (Sleep).
The three Kharites were usually depicted in classical sculpture and mosaic as three naked women, holding hands and dancing in a circle. They were sometimes crowned with myrtle and held sprigs of myrtle in their hands.

In Greek vase painting a bevy of younger Kharis personifications form the retinue of Aphrodite.

Definition of the Three Graces (Charities)
Who were the Three Graces of Ancient Greek mythology? The meaning and definition of Three Graces are as follows: Definition of Three Graces: The Three Graces were minor goddesses and nymphs [brides in Revelation 18] and according to Greek Mythology were the daughters of Zeus, the king of the gods and the Oceanid called Eurynome a nymph of the water-ways and clouds, who was represented by a statue of what we would call a mermaid. Other sources say that Helios and the naiad Aegle were the parents of the Charities. The Three Graces were reputed to be the essence of beauty, charm, and grace and were closely associated with the Nine Muses who presided and inspired song, dance, music, poetry and the sciences. They were regarded as the inspirers of the qualities which give attractiveness to wisdom, love, culture and social interaction. The names of the Three Graces were Aglaia, Thalia, and Euphrosyne.

AS NOTED PAUL USED A WORD WHICH WAS ANTITHETICAL TO JEHOVAH-ELOHIM WHOSE WORD OR LOGOS HAS THE ONLY DRIVING PURPOSE AS TO "TEACH OR EDUCATE" THE LITTLE FLOCK: THE WAY THAT IS CALLED A SECT OF LOST SPIRITS IN THE WORLD BUT NOT OF THE WORLD. 

Rom. 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. [Spiritual or Rational OF THE WORD]
Rom. 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, WILL OF GOD /b]

Offline RB

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #23 on: Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 03:30:07 »
I have no idea whatsoever what that means or even what you were trying to convey.  And to be honest, I don't think I care.  I will come back later with some comments on the post before this last one.
It's time for Mr. Ken to retire, he is hurting your side. Ken means well, I'm sure, but he a loose wire, that cannot be repaired~at least this "seems" to be the case.
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 06:47:02 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #24 on: Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 04:27:24 »
Quote from: Paul
Ephesians chapter one~Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all."

Quote from: Paul
Ephesians chapter two~"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."
Let us come back and see just how important context IS in order for us to understand fully what the writer is saying to us. The word "for" is not use once in chapter one and not until Paul begins to explain more in detail what he had said in chapter one where he said:
Quote from: Paul
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace
Our interpretation of Ephesians 2:8 must continue to give praise of the glory of the riches of his grace toward us. So, what is the sense that we must understand the word faith which we understand Paul to say that FAITH is NOT of ourselves it is the gift of God?

I'm convinced that the surrounding verses before and after Ephesians 2:8,9 will reveal to us the true interpretation of Ephesians 2:8,9.  So, then, context is again lord and master that will drive our interpretation for us to a correct biblical understanding of Paul's words.

Later....
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 04:29:57 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #25 on: Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 07:17:02 »
Some mistakenly conclude that Ephesians 2:8 says faith is a gift: “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.” This is disproved, though, by the rules of Greek grammar. The Greek word for “faith” (pistis) is feminine in gender; the pronoun referring to the gift (“that,” touto) is neuter. If it were referring back to faith, it too would be feminine in form. (We should note there is no word in the Greek corresponding to the pronoun “it.” That is why the two words "it is" in most translations are italicized)

This verse actually shows that faith is not a gift since grace and faith are carefully distinguished. We are saved by grace, as God’s part; but through faith, as our part, as distinct from the grace given. Faith is not a gift of grace and the result of regeneration; it is a response to grace and a prerequisite to regeneration. That faith precedes regeneration and is a prerequisite for it is specifically affirmed in Colossians 2:12: having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.  And v. 13: “He made you alive together with Him”,

Here faith is the means by which the regeneration is received: we are “raised . . . through faith.”  The spiritually dead unbeliever makes his decision to believe of his own free choice, moved by the power of the gospel (Romans 1:16), before being “raised up” in regeneration. See also Ephesians 1:13-14,

Eph 1:13  In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14  who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Here “hearing” and “believing” are actually aorist participles, meaning these acts precede the action of the main verb, the sealing with the Spirit (see also Acts 5:32; 15:7-9; 16:30; 1 Peter 1:22).  Here, of course, the sealing with the Spirit is regeneration, the giving of the gift of the Holy Spirit.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #26 on: Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 09:06:52 »

"by grace",  basically means that Jehovah God ,(Exo. 6:3), gave us a gift, by send ins Son to die for our sins. we are imperfect, and shouldn't fool ourselves into believing we deserve that loving gift of kindness. so again, by that undeserved kindness, Jehovah God gave us a way to be saved. through faith...and! works.

see ,(James 2:14-26 My Christian brothers, what good does it do if you say you have faith but do not do things that prove you have faith? Can that kind of faith save you from the punishment of sin? What if a Christian does not have clothes or food? And one of you says to him, “Goodbye, keep yourself warm and eat well.” But if you do not give him what he needs, how does that help him? A faith that does not do things is a dead faith. Someone may say, “You have faith, and I do things. Prove to me you have faith when you are doing nothing. I will prove to you I have faith by doing things.” You believe there is one God. That is good! But even the demons believe that, and because they do, they shake. You foolish man! Do I have to prove to you that faith without doing things is of no use? Was not our early father Abraham right with God by what he did? He obeyed God and put his son Isaac on the altar to die. You see his faith working by what he did and his faith was made perfect by what he did. It happened as the Holy Writings said it would happen. They say, “Abraham put his trust in God and he became right with God.” He was called the friend of God. A man becomes right with God by what he does and not by faith only. The same was true with Rahab, the woman who sold the use of her body. She became right with God by what she did in helping the men who had been sent to look through the country and sent them away by another road. The body is dead when there is no spirit in it. It is the same with faith. Faith is dead when nothing is done).


Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #27 on: Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 18:25:34 »
Let's see if I can do this justice in a short post.

Quickened

The most important word in Ephesians 2:8, isn't actually in the verse.  It's in verse 5, so scroll up.  What did God do?  He quickened the Ephesians.  That means he brought them back to life when they were dead.  That's the event under consideration.

By Grace,...This Not of Yourselves

This describes the reason that God brought them back to life.  It does not describe how He did it.  The point is, that they were resurrected, not because of any merit they had for themselves, but simply because God is good and gives gifts, even undeserved gifts.

You Are Saved

Saved isn't part of the verb here, though it appears that way in English.  In Greek, that word refers to the ongoing state of being resulting from God's actions - in this case, that they are ALIVE.  This word in every other chapter/verse in the Bible is translated as healed, rather than saved, and IMO it would have been the best translation here as well, since a resurrection is what is in view.

Through Faith

This describes how the Ephesians' resuscitation was accomplished.

It is the gift of God

It is not faith.  It also isn't grace.  It is LIFE - God gave them LIFE.

Jarrod

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #28 on: Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 19:16:29 »
Life = salvation

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #29 on: Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 21:09:55 »
Let's see if I can do this justice in a short post.

Quickened

The most important word in Ephesians 2:8, isn't actually in the verse.  It's in verse 5, so scroll up.  What did God do?  He quickened the Ephesians.  That means he brought them back to life when they were dead.  That's the event under consideration.

By Grace,...This Not of Yourselves

This describes the reason that God brought them back to life.  It does not describe how He did it.  The point is, that they were resurrected, not because of any merit they had for themselves, but simply because God is good and gives gifts, even undeserved gifts.

You Are Saved

Saved isn't part of the verb here, though it appears that way in English.  In Greek, that word refers to the ongoing state of being resulting from God's actions - in this case, that they are ALIVE.  This word in every other chapter/verse in the Bible is translated as healed, rather than saved, and IMO it would have been the best translation here as well, since a resurrection is what is in view.

Through Faith

This describes how the Ephesians' resuscitation was accomplished.

It is the gift of God

It is not faith.  It also isn't grace.  It is LIFE - God gave them LIFE.

Jarrod
Yes that sounds like good reasoning I kinda like this thought it kinda sums it all up it is a new life that is given and some might call it salvation but in reality it is the new life.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #30 on: Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 22:31:16 »
Life = salvation
Well, regeneration, anyway.  The beginning of salvation.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #31 on: Fri Oct 20, 2017 - 06:08:34 »

You Are Saved

Saved isn't part of the verb here, though it appears that way in English.  In Greek, that word refers to the ongoing state of being resulting from God's actions - in this case, that they are ALIVE.  This word in every other chapter/verse in the Bible is translated as healed, rather than saved, and IMO it would have been the best translation here as well, since a resurrection is what is in view.


The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 4982   Browse Lexicon
Original Word   Word Origin
sw/vzw   from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe")
Transliterated Word   TDNT Entry
Sozo   7:965,1132
Phonetic Spelling   Parts of Speech
sode'-zo    Verb
Definition
to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction
one (from injury or peril)
to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health
to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue
to save in the technical biblical sense
negatively 1b
to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment 1b
to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliverance
King James Word Usage - Total: 110
save 93, make whole 9, heal 3, be whole 2, miscellaneous 3

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/sozo.html

Offline beloved57

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #32 on: Fri Oct 20, 2017 - 08:25:24 »
yogi

Quote
We need to understand just what saved by grace is according to the biblical meaning and not of our personal view.

I believe its to be saved by Gods elective Grace apart from works. Rom 11:5-6

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Salvation by Grace is only for a remnant of men !

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #33 on: Fri Oct 20, 2017 - 08:33:58 »
The remnant that Paul is speaking of in Romans 11 is the remnant of national Israel (vv. 1-2)

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #34 on: Fri Oct 20, 2017 - 10:03:39 »
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 4982   Browse Lexicon
Original Word   Word Origin
sw/vzw   from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe")
Transliterated Word   TDNT Entry
Sozo   7:965,1132
Phonetic Spelling   Parts of Speech
sode'-zo    Verb
Definition
to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction
one (from injury or peril)
to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health
to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue
to save in the technical biblical sense
negatively 1b
to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment 1b
to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliverance
King James Word Usage - Total: 110
save 93, make whole 9, heal 3, be whole 2, miscellaneous 3

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/sozo.html

Hi Bond,

Good on you for being a Berean.  With apologies for a boring post...

σῴζω (the Strong's entry you posted) is only the root word.  The next step is to look at the casing, because the word in the verse is actually σεσῳσμένοι.

It's a participle of σῴζω, which is to say that it has been morphed to act like a noun rather than a verb.  It's also in the perfect case, which is to say that it represents the continuing effects of a completed action.

Or, to put it in the context of the verse...
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh
In Greek, that word refers to the ongoing state of being resulting from God's actions - in this case, that they are ALIVE.


I also claimed that this word usually refers to a healing.  I will now justify that claim.  There are 10 usages in the New Testament of the perfect tense of the verb σῴζω.  2 of them are in Ephesians 2, verses 5 and 8.  Here are the other eight usages, with the bolded sections representing the translation of the word we are discussing:

Mat 9:22 KJV - But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.
(Perfect Active Indicative)

Mar 5:34 KJV - And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
(Perfect Active Indicative)

Mar 10:52 KJV - And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.
(Perfect Active Indicative)

Luk 7:50 KJV - And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
(Perfect Active Indicative)

Luk 8:48 KJV - And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.
(Perfect Active Indicative)

Luk 17:19 KJV - And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.
(Perfect Active Indicative)

Luk 18:42 KJV - And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
(Note: In context, this refers to a physical healing.)
(Perfect Active Indicative)

Act 4:9 KJV - If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;
(Perfect Passive Indicative)