Author Topic: Ephesians 2:8 (Read 59688 times)

RB · « **Reply #105 on:** Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 05:44:00 »

Quote from: Paul

Ephesians 2:8,9~"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The word Faith is used in different senses in the scriptures, and it is very important to understand this truth.

Sometimes by faith is meant knowledge.

Quote from: Peter

2nd Peter 1:1,2~“To them that have obtained like precious faith~ through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord.”

And sometimes faith is used in reference to the doctrine of faith.

Quote from: Jude

Jude verse three~“That ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.”

So also for the profession of faith.

Quote from: Paul

Romans 1:8~“Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.”

So we read concerning Simon Magus~who was “in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity;” and whose heart was “not right in the sight of God,”...believed~See Acts 8:9-24. Also, by faith we are to understand the power by which we believe.

Quote from: Paul

2nd Thessalonians 1:11~ “Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power.”

Sometimes by the word faith, we are to understand Christ.

Quote from: Paul

Galatians 3:23~“But before faith (Christ) came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith (Christ) which should afterwards be revealed.

Again: See also Galatians chapter three, where ten times at least in this chapter, the word Faith IS put FOR Christ. Regardless what many may believe otherwise, Jesus Christ's faith/obedience/righteousness (which is impossible to separate one from the other, or to say anyone of them is not needed in order for Jesus to be the perfect sacrifice for our sins) that he had AS A MAN, is the ONLY MEANS of the sinners justification leagally before God's law.

Be patience we have ways to go before we settle in on Ephesians 2:8,9.

4WD · « **Reply #106 on:** Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 06:45:46 »

Indeed, the Greek word "pistos" is used in several different ways. And it is important to understand how it is being used. A good place to start is Vine's NT word dictionary:

Faith

pistis (G4102), primarily, "firm persuasion," a conviction based upon hearing (akin to peitho, "to persuade"), is used in the NT always of "faith in God or Christ, or things spiritual."

The word is used of (a) trust, e.g., Rom_3:25 [see Note (4) below]; 1Co_2:5; 1Co_15:14, 1Co_15:17; 2Co_1:24; Gal_3:23 [see Note (5) below]; Phi_1:25; Phi_2:17; 1Th_3:2; 2Th_1:3; 2Th_3:2; (b) trust-worthiness, e.g., Mat_23:23; Rom_3:3, RV, "the faithfulness of God"; Gal_5:22 (RV, "faithfulness"); Tit_2:10, "fidelity"; (c) by metonymy, what is believed, the contents of belief, the "faith," Act_6:7; Act_14:22; Gal_1:23; Gal_3:25 [contrast Gal_3:23, under (a)]; Gal_6:10; Phi_1:27; 1Th_3:10; Jud_1:3, Jud_1:20 (and perhaps 2Th_3:2); (d) a ground for "faith," an assurance, Act_17:31 (not as in KJV, marg., "offered faith"); (e) a pledge of fidelity, plighted "faith," 1Ti_5:12.

The main elements in "faith" in its relation to the invisible God, as distinct from "faith" in man, are especially brought out in the use of this noun and the corresponding verb, pisteuo; they are (1) a firm conviction, producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation or truth, e.g., 2Th_2:11-12; (2) a personal surrender to Him, Joh_1:12; (3) a conduct inspired by such surrender, 2Co_5:7. Prominence is given to one or other of these elements according to the context. All this stands in contrast to belief in its purely natural exercise, which consists of an opinion held in good "faith" without necessary reference to its proof. The object of Abraham's "faith" was not God's promise (that was the occasion of its exercise); his "faith" rested on God Himself, Rom_4:17, Rom_4:20-21. See ASSURANCE, BELIEF, FAITHFULNESS, FIDELITY.

Notes: (1) In Heb_10:23, elpis, "hope," is mistranslated "faith" in the KJV (RV, "hope"). (2) In Act_6:8 the most authentic mss. have charis, "grace," RV, for pistis, "faith." (3) In Rom_3:3, RV, apistia, is rendered "want of faith," for KJV, "unbelief" (so translated elsewhere). See UNBELIEF. The verb apisteo in that verse is rendered "were without faith," RV, for KJV, "did not believe." (4) In Rom_3:25, the KJV wrongly links "faith" with "in His blood," as if "faith" is reposed in the blood (i.e., the death) of Christ; the en is instrumental; "faith" rests in the living Person; hence the RV rightly puts a comma after "through faith," and renders the next phrase "by His blood," which is to be connected with "a propitiation." Christ became a propitiation through His blood (i.e., His death in expiatory sacrifice for sin). (5) In Gal_3:23, though the article stands before "faith" in the original, "faith" is here to be taken as under (a) above, and as in Gal_3:22, and not as under (c), "the faith"; the article is simply that of renewed mention. (6) For the difference between the teaching of Paul and that of James, on "faith" and works, see Notes on Galatians, by Hogg and Vine, pp. 117-119.

While it is important to recognize and understand how the word "pistis" is used, it is also important to recognize and understand that it is never used in a substitutionary sense to mean "Christ" or anything else. Your every attempt to use it in a substitutionary sense is unnecessary since it makes complete sense use in its direct sense as presented above. The only reason for doing so is that you are trying to change the meaning of the passage and trying to discount God's reliance on the individual himself in His "election" of that individual. In other words, doing what you are trying to do is a direct attempt at eisigesis instead of exogesis. You are changing the meaning of the passage under consideration in order to make it agree with your theology.

Take your first attempt, namely, 2 Peter 1:1-2:

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

Faith in verse 1 does not mean knowledge. The word "faith" is not a substitution for the word knowledge; it is not used in a substitutionary sense for the word "knowledge". Rather it shows that our faith comes THROUGH the knowledge we acquire about God. This is in complete harmony with Paul's statement in Romans 10 that faith comes from hearing about Christ. We gain our faith through hearing or reading about Christ in the written word. It is the reason that we have the OT for instance. It provides the necessary information, background, and basis to believe what we have been told in the NT.

The word "faith" in Ephesians 2:8 means faith, our faith, not Christ, not Christ's faith. We are saved by grace through [our] faith [in Jesus Christ]; and it [being saved by grace through faith] is a gift of God.

Michael2012 · « **Reply #107 on:** Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 10:38:38 »

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 06:45:46

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

Faith in verse 1 does not mean knowledge. The word "faith" is not a substitution for the word knowledge; it is not used in a substitutionary sense for the word "knowledge". Rather it shows that our faith comes THROUGH the knowledge we acquire about God. This is in complete harmony with Paul's statement in Romans 10 that faith comes from hearing about Christ. We gain our faith through hearing or reading about Christ in the written word. It is the reason that we have the OT for instance. It provides the necessary information, background, and basis to believe what we have been told in the NT.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

4WD, what do you understand of "obtained" here?

Strong's Concordance
lagchanó: to obtain by lot
Original Word: λαγχάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: lagchanó
Phonetic Spelling: (lang-khan'-o)
Short Definition: I obtain by lot, cast lots
Definition: (a) I obtain (receive) by lot, my lot (turn) is, (b) I draw lots.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2975: λαγχάνω

λαγχάνω: 2 aorist ἔλαχον;
1. to obtain by lot (from Homer down): with the genitive of the thing, Luke 1:9 (cf. Buttmann, 269 (231); Winers Grammar, 319 (299)); to receive by divine allotment, obtain: τί, Acts 1:17; 2 Peter 1:1; on the construction of this verb with the genitive and accusative of the thing, see Matthiae, § 328; Winers Grammar, 200 (188); (cf. Buttmann, § 132, 8).

2. to cast lots, determine by lot (Isocrates, p. 144 b.; Diodorus 4, 63 (cf. ps.-Demosthenes in middle, p. 510, 26)): περί τίνος, John 19:24.

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 06:45:46

The word "faith" in Ephesians 2:8 means faith, our faith, not Christ, not Christ's faith. We are saved by grace through [our] faith [in Jesus Christ]; and it [being saved by grace through faith] is a gift of God.

"our" is obviously your addition. The word "faith" in Ephesians 2:8 means faith, without qualification of being ours nor Christ's.

Ephesians 2:5
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

The verse above is clear about salvation, that is, it is by grace.

In verse 8-9, this is reiterated, that is, "For by grace you have been saved...". Although here, it says "through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." This tells us that salvation, which is by God's grace, is not of man nor is of works of the man. But that salvation is of God, the work of God which is God's gift, obviously to those who are saved and are being saved. That is why in verse 10 it says of them as God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, good works which God prepared beforehand that they should walk in them. And God works out His salvation works through faith which He too is the author and the giver.

The grace of the salvation of God spoken in verse 8 is described first in verse 1 "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins" and again in verse 4-5 "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)".

Kenneth Sublett · « **Reply #108 on:** Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 11:31:38 »

God through the Spirit OF MESSIAH refuted the sacrificial system and defined the future REST of Messiah to exclude any of the ceremonial legalism you are selling or buying this morning. Corrupting the WORD, Logos or Regulative principle EXCLUDES self-authored songs or sermons and SELLING LEARNING AT RETAIL.

Jesus of Nazareth defined Holy Scriptures for HIS Creation of a FAMILY as the PROPHETS and other prophecies concerning MESSIAH.
Jesus FULFILLED the prophecies required to TERMINATE the Civil-Military-Clergy complex as Babylonianism, lying wonders or religious operations claiming God's Authority.

Jesus CERTIFIED the PROPHECIES with signs and wonders by God's HOLY SPIRIT.
The Apostles were Eye--and Ear Witnesses of these fulfilments.
Peter left a MEMORY which is the FINAL SPIRIT INTERPRETATION.
That FURTHER EXPOUNDING by Peter and others is OUTLAWED because those who speak ONLY THEIR OWN says Jesus are the Sons of the Devil.
That means that YOU are not CAPABLE of Further Expounding as sermonizing and versifying that which JESUS HAS EXPOUNDED and Peter simply LEFT A RECORD of that expounding.
Thereafter, anyone who as a PERSON goes beyond TEACHING THAT WHICH HAS BEEN TAUGHT IS A PRIVATE.

With NO DOUBT everyone heard the ACT of reading a verse or two and the IDIOS cracked jokes, gave private opinions, personal experiences then SAILED AWAY by explicating or MORALIZINGl which is ANTI-LOGOS or ANTI-CHRIST-TAUGHT.

g2398. idios, id´-ee-os; of uncertain affinity; pertaining to self, i.e. one’s own; by implication, private or separate: — x his acquaintance, when they were alone, apart, aside, due, his (own, proper, several), home, (her, our, thine, your) own (business), private(-ly), proper, severally, their (own).

g2399. idiotes, id-ee-o´-tace; from 2398; a private person, i.e. (by implication) an ignoramus (compare “idiot”): — ignorant, rude, unlearned.

Modern RULERS and audience are IGNORANT of the Word just as were those who murdered Jesus and anyone who simple SPOKE that which is written for our learning.

Now, I will stand in the gate waiting for someone to explain Private (idiot by definition) Interpretation. Why would anyone try to say that PETER was ignorant because HE outlaws Private Interpretation for the WEE LITTLE PEOPLE who are NOT prophets or apostles even though they CLAIM the same power to HAVE FAITH in comflict to the Spirit's INTERPRETATION that FAITH comes by HEARING. When people claim to hear voices or see visions don't drink their Koolaid not let them SELL YOU the FREE WATER OF THE WORD

http://www.piney.com/Isaiah.55.Word.Spirit.html

The Spirit OF Christ in the Prophets commanded the NOW FREE believers NOT to pay for the Free Water of the Word because God will send strong delusions proving that they CANNOT sell their IDIOS opinions. In Isaiah 58 The Spirit OF Christ agreed with Peter and commanded you NOT to tarry when people try to sell you SEEKING HIS OWN PLEASURE or SPEAKING HIS OWN WORDS.

http://www.piney.com/Isaiah.58.html

I will post you an EXHAUSTIVE STUDY of the meaning of INTERPRETATION which no young Ph.d can explain HOWEVER MUCH he has been EXTORTED by those who SPEAK ON THEIR OWN and despise the SPIRIT Who has done ALL of the INTERPRETATION. If then after 2000 years anyone has anything to sell you, don't buy it.

2Pet. 1:18 And this VOICE which came from heaven we HEARD, when we were with HIM in the holy mount.
2Pet. 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy;
whereunto YE do well that ye take heed,
as unto a light that shineth in a dark place,
until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

WHAT ARE YOU TO GIVE HEED TO AND NOT PRIVATE INTERPRET OR CORRUPT MEANING SELLING AT RETAIL.

2Pet. 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the SCRIPTURE is of any private interpretation.
2Pet. 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:
but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

YOU should not Private Interpret or GO BEYOND THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN BECAUSE DISCIPLES WILL FIND YOU OUT

2Pet. 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people,
even as there shall be false teachers among you,
who privily shall bring in damnable heresies,
even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pet. 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pet. 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time

I PRAY THAT YOU ARE NOT PURCHASING ANYTHING TODAY!

Denying the LORD is going beyond HIS PATTERN as the ONLY one to reveal the Father by NOT speaking His own Words whiich Jesus said would mark him of DOING what they had seen with their father whereas Jesus SPOKE what He Heard from HIS father. Now, tell us if you can, who is SPEAKING to you. The only personified SPIRITUS is Apollon and famil.

When God's Spirit breathes you hear SOUNDS: Do you guys HEAR voices or SEE visions or do you use a ouija board

My cat speaks to me.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #108 on:** Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 11:31:38 »

Kenneth Sublett · « **Reply #109 on:** Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 12:01:01 »

Quote

The grace of the salvation of God spoken in verse 8 is described first in verse 1 "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins" and again in verse 4-5 "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)".

Col. 2:13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses

Heb. 6:1 Therefore [you] leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection;
not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

There is danger that people who speak beyond that which is written for OUR LEARNING are still DEAD. Baptism is obeying the FORM of the DEATH, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus. Repentance is TURNING AWAY and becoming DEAD to our OWN transpasses and Sins. You have to DIE before you can be BURRIED and then given A new spirit or Regenerated and then RESURRECTED from the dead.

LET THE SPIRIT DO THE TALKING since we are WEE MEN just IDIOS.

Col. 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the BODY of the sins of the FLESH by the circumcision of Christ:

THEN, we bury YOUR dead body in water.

Col. 2:12 Buried with him in baptism,
WHEREN also ye are risen with him through THE FAITH of the OPERATION of God,
who hath raised him from the dead.

FAITH is sometimes compared to THE LAW. THE FAITH is THE GOSPEL which is our POWER UNTO SALVATION.

Heb. 11:6 But without [OUR] faith it is impossible to please him:
for he that cometh to God must believe that he is,
and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Everyone is HINDERED from being baptized---however wet--unless THEIR FAITH can confess that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God. By common sense no one is going to EXPOSE themselves by CONFESSING something that is dangerous unless THEIR FAITH leads them to CONFESS and BE BAPTIZED to RISE FROM THE DEAD unless they STILL understand that having A holy spirit of A good conscience exposes them to RADICAL AND DANGEROUS BEING HATED AND DESPISED BY ALMOST ALL OF APOSTATE RELIGIONISTS who make a major industry (within and without) out of mocking and ejecting their DEAD members who are REBORN or REGENERATED or WASHED WITH WATER INTO THE SCHOOL OF CHRIST ONLY.

Baptism is a spiritually dangerous thing. Only those who GLADLY ACCEPT HIS WORD are BAPTIZED and never debate it: this is the SEAL along with being ENLIVENED to be able to become a Christian, Disciple or STUDENT of Christ. I doubt that you know anyone who in the teachings of ALL of Scripture and the Campbells went to the SCHOOL OF CHRIST where worship is READING and MUSING the word.

Col. 2:13 And you, being dead in YOUR SINS and the uncircumcision of YOUR flesh,
hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col. 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us,
which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Jesus Shed His Blood on the CROSS as a means but also a TUPOS or a pattern INTENDED TO BE IMITATED. Baptism is where JESUS commanded that if WE receive His WORD (Logos excludes all you paid for today) which will IMPEL us to Baptism. Jesus was Baptized to FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jesus was RIGHTEOUS in a Spiritual sense before God pronounced Him as a SON. ONLY those who obeyed that TUPOS or as ANTI-TUPOS or INSTEAD OF CRUCIFIXION are we THEN FREE FROM SIN and are BORN AGAIN.

1Pet. 2:24 Who his own self bare OUR sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being DEAD TO sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #109 on:** Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 12:01:01 »

4WD · « **Reply #110 on:** Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 12:53:21 »

Michael, I hate to say it, but I believe you still do not understand what faith is or even much about faith.

Michael2012 · « **Reply #111 on:** Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 13:00:41 »

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 12:53:21

Michael, I hate to say it, but I believe you still do not understand what faith is or even much about faith.

Then perhaps you can start showing me what you think faith is by answering my questions regarding faith, such as that in Reply #107 on 2 Peter 1:1.

4WD · « **Reply #112 on:** Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 15:01:42 »

Why bother. It won't change anything.

Kenneth Sublett · « **Reply #113 on:** Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 15:13:52 »

I will respond since at my age I have time to waste while watching Brady toss the ball. I can also relax since my youngest child finally found someone she loves who HAS A JOB!

2Pet. 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Jesus was BAPTIZED to validate RIGHTEOUSNESS even though He was without sin.

How did they RECEIVE that FAITH?

2Pet. 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
2Pet. 1:3 According as his divine power
hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness,
through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pet. 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious PROMISES:
that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature,
having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pet. 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, ADD to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pet. 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pet. 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pet. 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound,
they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful
in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pet. 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off,
and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pet. 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren,
GIVE DILIGENCE to make your calling and election sure:

MANY or most are CALLED or invited but FEW are chosen to be OF THE ELECT added to the EKKLECIA.
for if ye DO these things, ye shall never fall: [If you DON'T DO these things you WILL FALL]
2Pet. 1:11 For so an entrance SHALL BE ministered unto you abundantly
into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

TUIP fades because we CAN FALL.

In Ephesians 2 and elsewhere we are KEPT SAFE from that CROOKED RACE or VIPERS.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #113 on:** Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 15:13:52 »

Michael2012 · « **Reply #114 on:** Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 20:24:26 »

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 15:01:42

Quote from: 4WD on Today at 12:53:21
Quote
Michael, I hate to say it, but I believe you still do not understand what faith is or even much about faith.

Michael...
Quote

Then perhaps you can start showing me what you think faith is by answering my questions regarding faith, such as that in Reply #107 on 2 Peter 1:1.

Why bother. It won't change anything.

Seems 2 Peter 1:1 is a difficult verse for you. It was first asked of you in Reply#72, and asked again in Reply#107. Well, if you don't like to give your answer, we'll just have to take that as an avoidance, if not, an evasion. No problem.

Have you changed as a person because you did or because God changed you?

Have you changed a person's conviction or is it God?

Michael2012 · « **Reply #115 on:** Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 20:45:31 »

Quote from: Kenneth Sublett on Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 15:13:52

I will respond since at my age I have time to waste while watching Brady toss the ball. I can also relax since my youngest child finally found someone she loves who HAS A JOB!

2Pet. 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Jesus was BAPTIZED to validate RIGHTEOUSNESS even though He was without sin.

How did they RECEIVE that FAITH?

2Pet. 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
2Pet. 1:3 According as his divine power
hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness,
through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pet. 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious PROMISES:
that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature,
having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pet. 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, ADD to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pet. 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pet. 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pet. 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound,
they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful
in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pet. 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off,
and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pet. 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren,
GIVE DILIGENCE to make your calling and election sure:

MANY or most are CALLED or invited but FEW are chosen to be OF THE ELECT added to the EKKLECIA.
for if ye DO these things, ye shall never fall: [If you DON'T DO these things you WILL FALL]
2Pet. 1:11 For so an entrance SHALL BE ministered unto you abundantly
into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

TUIP fades because we CAN FALL.

In Ephesians 2 and elsewhere we are KEPT SAFE from that CROOKED RACE or VIPERS.

Thank you for your response Ken. I know you have time to 'waste', as you put it, however, it will be nice if you first answer the question at hand, before anything else. So, let me run that again for you.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

What do you understand of "obtained" here?

Strong's Concordance
lagchanó: to obtain by lot
Original Word: λαγχάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: lagchanó
Phonetic Spelling: (lang-khan'-o)
Short Definition: I obtain by lot, cast lots
Definition: (a) I obtain (receive) by lot, my lot (turn) is, (b) I draw lots.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2975: λαγχάνω

λαγχάνω: 2 aorist ἔλαχον;
1. to obtain by lot (from Homer down): with the genitive of the thing, Luke 1:9 (cf. Buttmann, 269 (231); Winers Grammar, 319 (299)); to receive by divine allotment, obtain: τί, Acts 1:17; 2 Peter 1:1; on the construction of this verb with the genitive and accusative of the thing, see Matthiae, § 328; Winers Grammar, 200 (188); (cf. Buttmann, § 132, 8).

2. to cast lots, determine by lot (Isocrates, p. 144 b.; Diodorus 4, 63 (cf. ps.-Demosthenes in middle, p. 510, 26)): περί τίνος, John 19:24.

Kenneth Sublett · « **Reply #116 on:** Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 21:10:40 »

Yes it is OBTAINED FROM GOD because FAITH comes from hearing and hearing from the WORD of God. One should not be an ingrate and refuse to let God show you HOW He is supplying your faith. Otherwise no one hears from God but through VOICES or VISIONS. There are several words for obtain

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a BONDSERVANT and APOSTLE of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith WITH US by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2Pet. 1:12 ¶ Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
2Pet. 1:13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
2Pet. 1:14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
2Pet. 1:15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.
2Pet. 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

The other apostles were GIFTED with Direct Teaching. Others BY LOT: Matthias was chosen by LOT because there were several EQUALLY QUALIFIED. I doubt that I have faith equal to Peter. Paul had to SEE and HEAR Jesus of Nazareth in His Holy Spirit FORM to become an Apostle "born after Apostle Season.

1Cor. 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Cor. 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

Matthew comes first to show that people's heart has WAXED gross proving that God didn't create thee junk.

Matt. 13:15 For this people’s heart is WAXED gross,
And their ARE are dull of hearing, and their eyes THEY HAVE CLOSED;
Lest at any time they should SEE with their eyes, and HEAR with their ears, and should UNDERSTAND with their heart,
and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Why do you REJECT Jesus' definition of HOW people UNDERSTAND: Eyes and Ears are supernatural gifts: why despise them?

One should never, ever ACCUSE a Holy God of being worse than Hitler who could only burn your body. That is one of those unforgivable since He has ALWAYS provided EVIDENCE to WINNOW the grain from the chaff.

John 12:34 The people answered him,
We have HEARD out of the law that Christ abideth for ever:
and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?
John 12:35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you.
WALK while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you:
for he that WALKETH in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.
John 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, THAT ye may be the children of light.
These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
John 12:37 But though he had done so many MIRACLES before them, yet they believed not on him:
John 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake,
Lord, who hath believed our report?
and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
John 12:39 Therefore they could NOT believe, because that Esaias said again,
John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart;
that they should not see with their eyes,
nor understand with their heart,
and be converted, [at baptism]
and I should heal them. [give a new REGENERATED heart]
John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him;
but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
John 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.

John 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
John 12:46 I am come a LIGHT into the world,
that whosoever believeth on me should NOT abide in darkness.
John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not:
for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words,
hath one that judgeth him:
the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself;
but the Father which sent me,
he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is LIFE everlasting:
whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

John 14:29 And now I have TOLD you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might BELIEVE.

John 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples,
which are not WRITTEN in this BOOK:
John 20:31 But these are written,
THAT ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;
and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Luke 7:29 And all the people that HEARD him, and the publicans, JUSTIFIED God, being BAPTIZED with the baptism of John.
Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers REJECTED the counsel of God against themselves, being NOT BAPTIZED

yogi bear · « **Reply #117 on:** Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 21:39:57 »

How does one obtain faith??

The bible gives the only answer to that.

Romans 10:14-17 (ASV)
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 and how shall they preach, except they be sent? even as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they did not all hearken to the glad tidings. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Does faith come from God?

Yes God sent out the faith to all.

Matthew 28:18-20 (ASV)
18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:
20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

Romans 1:16-17 (ASV)
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

So how does God give man faith?
Romans 10:17 (KJV)
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Michael2012 · « **Reply #118 on:** Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 22:00:55 »

Quote from: Kenneth Sublett on Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 12:01:01

You have to DIE before you can be BURRIED and then given A new spirit or Regenerated and then RESURRECTED from the dead.

What was the believer before he became a believer? Yes, he was an unbeliever, which by nature, is among the children of wrath. n Ephesians 2, Paul says of the unbelievers as ones who walk according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, conducts themselves in the lusts of their flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath. These, Paul calls as those "who were dead in trespasses and sins". Now Paul in Ephesians 2 :1,5 tells the saints who are in Ephesus of what God have done, that God have made them alive, alive together with Christ, that is, God saved them, and that by grace. And when did God do that? It was even when they were dead in trespasses.

There was no need for the dead to die, for they are already dead. If there be anything that can be done to one who is dead in trespasses, that will be, to be made alive.

Michael2012 · « **Reply #119 on:** Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 23:02:50 »

Quote from: Kenneth Sublett on Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 21:10:40

Yes it is OBTAINED FROM GOD because FAITH comes from hearing and hearing from the WORD of God.

The word "obtain" in 2 Peter 1:1, in the Greek (lagchanó), means to receive by divine allotment, do you agree? So, faith clearly there, is something that comes from God, that which man is but to receive of it ~ it is grace from God. And elsewhere Paul said that it comes to the man by hearing, hearing the word of God.

Quote from: Kenneth Sublett on Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 21:10:40

There are several words for obtain.

1Cor. 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Cor. 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

The word "obtain" in 1 Cor 9:24 is not the same as that in 2 Pet. 1:1. Here, the Greek word is:

Strong's Concordance
katalambanó: to lay hold of, seize
Original Word: καταλαμβάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katalambanó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-al-am-ban'-o)
Short Definition: I seize tight hold of, overtake, comprehend
Definition: (a) I seize tight hold of, arrest, catch, capture, appropriate, (b) I overtake, (c) mid. aor: I perceived, comprehended.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2638: καταλαμβάνω

καταλαμβάνω: 2 aorist κατέλαβον; perfect infinitive κατειληφέναι; passive, perfect 3 person singular κατείληπται (John 8:4 as given in L T Tr WH text), perfect participle κατειλημμένος; 1 aorist κατειληφθην (John 8:4 Rst bez elz G) (on the augment cf. Winer's Grammar, § 12, 6), and κατελήφθην (Philippians 3:12 R G), and κατελήμφθην (ibid. L T Tr WH; on the mu μ' see under the word Mu); middle, present καταλαμβάνομαι; 2 aorist κατελαβόμην; cf. Kühner, i., p. 856; (Veitch, under the word λαμβάνω); the Sept. for הִשִּׂיג, לָכַד, also for מָצָא, etc.; (from Homer down); to lay hold of; i. e.:
1. to lay hold of so as to make one's own, to obtain, attain to: with the accusative of the thing; the prize of victory, 1 Corinthians 9:24; Philippians 3:12f; τήν δικαιοσύνην, Romans 9:30; equivalent to to make one's own, to take into oneself, appropriate: ἡ σκοτία αὐτό (i. e. τό φῶς) οὐ κατέλαβεν, John 1:5.

Also, the word "obtain" in 1Cor. 9:25 is not the same as that in 2 Pet. 1:1. Here, the Greek word is:

Strong's Concordance
lambanó: to take, receive
Original Word: λαμβάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: lambanó
Phonetic Spelling: (lam-ban'-o)
Short Definition: I receive, take
Definition: (a) I receive, get, (b) I take, lay hold of.

Kenneth Sublett · « **Reply #120 on:** Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 23:36:22 »

Peter was speaking of the APOSTLES who WERE appointed or selected by lot from EQUALLY QUALIFIED candidates who were witnesses of the resurrected lord: THEY received the faith from SIGHT. They were eye-- and ear-- witnesses. They left a Memory for we who are not apostles. We cannot do anything but believe it and speak it.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a BONDSERVANT and APOSTLE of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained LIKE precious faith WITH US by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

The Righteousness of Christ did not give you FAITH which would make EVERYONE have faith.

Peter promised to leave US a record so that we LESSER THAN APOSTLES can receive faith by reading.

2Pet. 1:12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in REMEMBRANCE of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
2Pet. 1:13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
2Pet. 1:14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
2Pet. 1:15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.
2Pet. 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty

WE are not apostles or eye witnesses and we were not SELECTED by Jesus to make HIS TEACHINGS know through WRITING.

Col. 4:16 And when this epistle is READ among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.
Col. 4:17 And say to Archippus, Take heed to the ministry which thou hast RECEIVED IN THE LORD, that thou fulfil it.

Mark 5:36 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.
Mark 16:11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that HEAR;
then cometh the devil, and taketh away the WORD out of their hearts,
LEST they should believe and be saved.
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they HEAR, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.
John 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have HEARD him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Acts 4:4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

RB · « **Reply #121 on:** Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 04:20:17 »

Quote from: Michael2012 on Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 20:45:31

Thank you for your response Ken. I know you have time to 'waste', as you put it, however, it will be nice if you first answer the question at hand, before anything else. So, let me run that again for you.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

What do you understand of "obtained" here?

You asked for it now go and try to figure out exactly what the Kenneth is trying to set forth~a word of advice....I trust that you have time to waste like Kenneth does for you will need a lot in order to figure him out. He means well, no doubt, but my oh my, is he ever confused. I would like to blame his age, but I'm not so sure of that.

RB · « **Reply #122 on:** Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 05:28:19 »

Quote from: yogi bear on Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 21:39:57

How does one obtain faith?? The bible gives the only answer to that.

Yes the word of God does indeed give us the answer to that question. But in a completely different sense than you and others teach it. You and others only want to see one side of the truth, and by refusing to see the others side, it leaves one believing a lie and embracing another gospel. Please do not be offended with this statement, for of a truth one of us are believing in a lie and embracing another gospel, either you or me, and I have no problem with any person who is worth his salt preaching this truth. We BOTH cannot be following the truth, one of us are in serious error and fall under Paul's curse from Galatians one, and in all sincerity, I DO WANT TO KNOW IF THAT PERSON IS ME! So, Yogi put forth your best effort to prove that your gospel is Paul's gospel that he preached, for I certainly will attempt to do the same.

Quote from: yogi bear

So how does God give man faith? Romans 10:17 (KJV) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The scriptures are the source of information concerning all spiritual truths, and through them is where our faith comes from concerning God's testimony to us. So far, not much difference between our two positions~but the gap will soon increase. Your statement has a measure of truth, but FAR from THE TRUTH.

You and many others believe that the natural man, or the flesh apart from Divine power creating IN THEM a new man FIRST, can believe and have faith~this is where those who embrace another gospel other than the one that the holy apostles taught begins to show their true colors of having another gospel, other than the one given by God in his word.

Quote from: 2nd Peter 1:1-3~

"Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:"

"to them that have obtained like precious faith with us"~Those to whom Peter was writing to OBTAIN like precious faith that he had~a faith which is the faith of God's elect, the gift of his grace, and the operation of his power; these are NOT my opinions but that which Jesus Christ said to Peter:

Quote from: Jesus

Matthew 16:13-17~When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

Flesh and blood CANNOT reveal TRUTHS of a good confession of WHOM Jesus truly is~but IT IS is a GIFT OBTAIN BY GRACE, or Jesus himself is a false prophet, but we know that is not so. Those who believe that man APART from the grace of God can come to faith without it being FREELY given to him from the Father in heaven through His Spirit are in opposition to Jesus Christ and his apostle's teachings and that is not a good side to be on.

This faith is said to be "precious", as it is in its own nature, being the faith that our Lord had given to his seed.

Quote from: Paul

Galatians 2:20~"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

The ONLY reason why I have faith and live the life of faith is because of the FAITH that Christ purchased for me in the HIS FLESH. If this is not so, then Galatians 2:20 makes no sense whatsoever. Now, someone is thinking, why is not your faith perfect as Jesus' was? The life of faith I live is mixed with sin because I still live in a body OF SIN and DEATH. When it is said that the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God means that we have been quickened to life on the behalf of the life of Jesus Christ's perfect faith/obedience/righteousness, and this new creation IN US enables us to live the life of faith, and this life of faith is nourished and increase THROUGH THE SCRIPTURES, per Romans 10:17

Peter said they had obtained, not by their own merits or industry, but by the grace of God; for faith is not of a man's self, it is the gift of God, and the produce of his grace and power for Peter added...

"through the righteousness of God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ"~by "righteousness" here, cannot be meant the goodness and mercy of God, as some think, though faith undoubtedly comes through that; nor the faithfulness of God making good his purpose and promise of giving faith to his elect, as others think: but the righteousness of Christ, which is not the righteousness of a creature, but of God; that is wrought out by one that is God, as well as man.

Faith and righteousness are two distinct things; and that faith is not a man's righteousness before God, for it comes to him through Christ's righteousness; as also that righteousness is before faith, or otherwise faith could not come by it; and, moreover, is the cause and reason of it; faith has no causal influence upon righteousness, but righteousness has upon faith: the reason why a man has a justifying righteousness is not because he has faith; but the reason why he has faith given him is because he has a justifying righteousness provided for him, and imputed to him~Again:

Quote from: 2nd Peter 1:1-3~

"Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:"

Michael2012 · « **Reply #123 on:** Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 05:32:42 »

Quote from: Kenneth Sublett on Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 23:36:22

Peter was speaking of the APOSTLES who WERE appointed or selected by lot from EQUALLY QUALIFIED candidates who were witnesses of the resurrected lord: THEY received the faith from SIGHT. They were eye-- and ear-- witnesses. They left a Memory for we who are not apostles. We cannot do anything but believe it and speak it.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a BONDSERVANT and APOSTLE of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained LIKE precious faith WITH US by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

The Righteousness of Christ did not give you FAITH which would make EVERYONE have faith.

Simon Peter wrote, and wrote to those whom He said have OBTAINED or received faith. "With us" he says, which could refer to the rest of the apostles or even all the Christians. Nonetheless, Peter was referring to every Christian to whom he writes to, as having obtained like faith as all the apostles and the other Christians. This, in relation to the point of this discussion on faith, clearly speaks of faith as given by God, and obtained by the Christian. And relative to this, Peter said that the Christians obtained it "by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ."

If you believe that the righteousness of Jesus Christ did not give you FAITH, that clearly go against what Peter said in the verse. The NIV makes this clear, "To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours." Peter says this referring to the apostles and the believers in Christ, and obviously not all men.

Michael2012 · « **Reply #124 on:** Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 07:46:03 »

Quote from: yogi bear on Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 21:39:57

How does one obtain faith??

The bible gives the only answer to that.

Romans 10:14-17 (ASV)
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 and how shall they preach, except they be sent? even as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they did not all hearken to the glad tidings. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Does faith come from God?

Yes God sent out the faith to all.

Matthew 28:18-20 (ASV)
18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:
20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

Romans 1:16-17 (ASV)
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

So how does God give man faith?
Romans 10:17 (KJV)
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Does faith come from God?

As have been shown in 2 Peter 1:1, faith have been obtained or received by those to whom Peter writes to, from God.

So how does God give man faith?

And you are right in saying that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by or through the word of God. The first part of the verse says "by hearing" which implies that one is able to hear the voice of one speaking. In this case, the speaker is God. Faith then only comes to one who is able to hear the voice of God, what God says to him. For not all can hear God. Those who do not belong to God do not hear what God says. But those who belong to God, they hear what God says (John 8:7). It is to them that faith comes and obtains it. Now, the second part of Romans 10:17 says "hearing by or through the word of God". In the days of Jesus and in the days of the apostles, including Paul, this is by or through the hearing of the words of Jesus and to the preaching of the apostles. But in our day, this tells us that we can hear the voice of God and Him speaking, through His words which He inspired to be written in the Holy Scriptures.

But before that, it must be remembered that it is by or through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ that the Christian have obtained faith (2 Peter 1:1). Also, the Christian has been granted, on behalf of Christ, to believe in (have faith in) Him, which we can understand in Phil. 1:29. So, we learn that faith is attributed to the grace of God. It is not in any way shape or form attributed to the believer or any work, deed, act or doing of the believer.

It is the grace of God that brings salvation.

Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God!

4WD · « **Reply #125 on:** Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 08:18:02 »

Quote from: Michael2012 on Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 07:46:03

So how does God give man faith?

And you are right in saying that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by or through the word of God. The first part of the verse says "by hearing" which implies that one is able to hear the voice of one speaking. In this case, the speaker is God. Faith then only comes to one who is able to hear the voice of God, what God says to him. For not all can hear God. Those who do not belong to God do not hear what God says. But those who belong to God, they hear what God says (John 8:7). It is to them that faith comes and obtains it.

Do you belong to God? Are you able to hear? Have you been given that faith? Prove it. Obviously your just saying so isn't any proof at all. Anyone could say so. So again, prove it.

Michael2012 · « **Reply #126 on:** Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 08:43:14 »

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 08:18:02

Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 07:46:03
So how does God give man faith?

And you are right in saying that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by or through the word of God. The first part of the verse says "by hearing" which implies that one is able to hear the voice of one speaking. In this case, the speaker is God. Faith then only comes to one who is able to hear the voice of God, what God says to him. For not all can hear God. Those who do not belong to God do not hear what God says. But those who belong to God, they hear what God says (John 8:7). It is to them that faith comes and obtains it.

Do you belong to God? Are you able to hear? Have you been given that faith? Prove it. Obviously your just saying so isn't any proof at all. Anyone could say so. So again, prove it.

In faith, Yes to all your questions. How about you, Do you belong to God? Are you able to hear?

Now, if you are not in agreement with what I've posted, you are free to try to refute it.

4WD · « **Reply #127 on:** Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 08:55:27 »

Quote from: Michael2012 on Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 08:43:14

In faith, Yes to all your questions. How about you, Do you belong to God? Are you able to hear?

You really expect me to believe that just because you say so? Seriously?

Quote

Now, if you are not in agreement with what I've posted, you are free to try to refute it.

I don't have to refute it. All I have to do is question it. If you can't prove that you are special and received the ability to hear God, why should I believe anything you say about God, about who He is and what He has done?

Michael2012 · « **Reply #128 on:** Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 09:25:58 »

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 08:55:27

Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 08:43:14
Quote
In faith, Yes to all your questions. How about you, Do you belong to God? Are you able to hear?
You really expect me to believe that just because you say so? Seriously?

4WD, I am not asking you to believe me. If there is anything I ask of you is first, to address the post objectively and answer the questions before you, and second, to believe what God says in scriptures. Why do you go personal, instead of just dealing with the post by refuting it if you think it is false?

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 08:55:27

Quote
Now, if you are not in agreement with what I've posted, you are free to try to refute it.
I don't have to refute it. All I have to do is question it. If you can't prove that you are special and received the ability to hear God, why should I believe anything you say about God, about who He is and what He has done?

Then don't refute it, by all means. And to question, it is your right to do that. And if you have the right to question my person, if I belong to God or not, if I can hear what God says or not in scriptures, if I have been given faith or not, I too have the right to do so. But I don't do that to you nor anyone here because such is not called for in a forum such as this. And such will not really get us to act kindly and lovingly, but get us to be talking about ourselves instead of God and the godly topic at hand.

4WD · « **Reply #129 on:** Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 09:36:08 »

Quote from: Michael2012 on Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 09:25:58

You really expect me to believe that just because you say so? Seriously?

4WD, I am not asking you to believe me. If there is anything I ask of you is first, to address the post objectively and answer the questions before you, and second, to believe what God says in scriptures. Why do you go personal, instead of just dealing with the post by refuting it if you think it is false?
I don't have to refute it. All I have to do is question it. If you can't prove that you are special and received the ability to hear God, why should I believe anything you say about God, about who He is and what He has done?

Then don't refute it, by all means. And to question, it is your right to do that. And if you have the right to question my person, if I belong to God or not, if I can hear what God says or not in scriptures, if I have been given faith or not, I too have the right to do so. But I don't do that to you nor anyone here because such is not called for in a forum such as this. And such will not really get us to act kindly and lovingly, but get us to be talking about ourselves instead of God and the godly topic at hand.

If all of what you say comes from this special faith that you have; but you can't document, or prove that you have that special faith, why should I give you even a second thought about your view of things?

The thing is Michael in so much of what you have said, you are dangerously close to the TULIP brand of theology. Implicit in that, whether or not any TULIP adherent will say so openly, is that if you disagree with them then you can't be saved. Because according to that TULIP theology, if you have been saved, then you are no longer a "natural" man, but instead a "spiritual" man and receive knowledge directly from the Spirit. And as such the Spirit can't give two different people two different "sets" of knowledge. Therefore if you disagree, then you must still be a "natural" man, hence an unregenerate man and hence unsaved.

Kenneth Sublett · « **Reply #130 on:** Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 09:57:29 »

RB.

Quote

Thank you for your response Ken. I know you have time to 'waste', as you put it, however, it will be nice if you first answer the question at hand, before anything else. So, let me run that again for you.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

I explained that ONCE proving that Peter was CHOSEN as a witness to leave us a MEMORY because WE were not CHOSEN TO BE AN APOSTLE.

What do you understand of "obtained" here?

JESUS PICKED THE APOSTLES WHO HAD NOT KNOWN QUALIFICATIONS AS SCHOLARS.

2Pet. 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an APOSTLE of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained LIKE precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

IF YOU READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER YOU WILL KNOW THAT Jesus made the PROPHECIES CONCERNING HIM More Certain. Jesus picked men to EXECUTE His Last Will and Testament as eye-- and ear-- WITNESSES.
Men like Peter left his PART of the PERFECT WILL as our MEMORY. He Warned that Private Interpretation or Further Expounding would mark FALSE TEACHERS

2Pet. 1:20 Knowing this first, that no PROPHECY of the SCRIPTURE is of any PRIVATE INTERPRETATION

2Pet. 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be FALSE TEACHERS among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Eph. 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Therefore, if you think that Jesus SPEAKS to give you FAITH, that will FORCE you to speak in isolated verses and disparage the WHOLE Record of Peter revealed VISUALLY AND AUDIBLY as a CHOSEN APOSTLE.

Now, I love to write and speak to myself so be patient with an older person who was baptized in 1942 but didn't learn how to read BLACK text on BROWN Paper until retirement in 1979.

1Pet. 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things,
as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pet. 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pet. 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world,
but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pet. 1:21 Who BY HIM BELIEVE in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory;
THAT your FAITH and hope might be in God.
1Pet. 1:22 Seeing ye have PURIFYING your souls in OBEYING the TRUTH through the Spirit
unto unfeigned love of the brethren,
see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

John 6:63 It is the SPIRIT that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the WORDS that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are LIFE.

Jesus probably was ignorant that people could receive SPIRIT and LIFE without the WORD, Logos or regulative princip.e

1Pet. 1:23 Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible SEED, but of incorruptible,
by the WORD of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born again, he cannot SEE the kingdom of God.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born of WATER and of the SPIRIT, he cannot ENTERED into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be BORN AGAIN.

1Pet. 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass.
The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
1Pet. 1:25 But the WORD of the Lord endureth for ever.
And this is the WORD which by the gospel is PREACHED unto you.

THOSE WHO BELIEVED THE GOSPEL AND WERE BAPTIZED:

1Pet. 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
1Pet. 2:2 As NEWBORN BABES
desire the sincere milk of the WORD,
THAT ye may GROW thereby:

Eph. 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief CORNER STONE.

1Pet. 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
1Pet. 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a LIVING STONE, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pet. 2:5 Ye also, as LIVELY STONES, are built up a spiritual house,
an holy priesthood, to offer up SPIRITUAL sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pet. 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture,
Behold, I lay in Sion a chief CORNER STONE, elect, precious:
and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pet. 2:7 Unto you therefore which BELIEVE he is precious:
but unto them which be DISOBEDIENT, the stone which the builders disallowed,
the same is made the head of the corner,

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and PREACH the gospel to every creature.
Mark 16:16 He that BELIEVETH AND is baptized shall be saved;
but he that BELIEVETH NOT shall be damned.

1Pet. 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
1Pet. 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pet. 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1Pet. 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

1Pet. 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a WITNESS of the SUFFERING of Christ, and also a PARTAKER of the glory that shall be revealed:

Jesus PICKED the Apostles bur not from Rabinic University.
They were the SIMPLE to which God speaks but He HIDES from the Wise or Sophists: trained speakers, singers, instrument players, actors.

THEY simply left US a Memory which WE cannot private interpret or FURTHER EXPOUND because that would repudiate the Spirit of God Which speaks ONLY through Jesus His Son who does NOT speak anything the Father has not revealed to Him. He was hated and murdered and He left a MARK for those who Speak ONLY what He commanded to teach who will ALSO be hated and never picked as a SENIOR PASTOR or as the Reformer says, SET A KING OVER US. God gave the KINGS in His Anger

Michael2012 · « **Reply #131 on:** Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 10:57:21 »

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 09:36:08

If all of what you say comes from this special faith that you have; but you can't document, or prove that you have that special faith, why should I give you even a second thought about your view of things?

The thing is Michael in so much of what you have said, you are dangerously close to the TULIP brand of theology. Implicit in that, whether or not any TULIP adherent will say so openly, is that if you disagree with them then you can't be saved. Because according to that TULIP theology, if you have been saved, then you are no longer a "natural" man, but instead a "spiritual" man and receive knowledge directly from the Spirit. And as such the Spirit can't give two different people two different "sets" of knowledge. Therefore if you disagree, then you must still be a "natural" man, hence an unregenerate man and hence unsaved.

What special faith are you talking about? I said nothing of a special faith 4WD. What faith I am talking about is the faith spoken of by Peter in 2 Peter 1:1 for which the Christians received or obtained from God, which you have not even tried to refute. Here it is again:

2 Peter 1:1(NIV)
1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

2 Peter 1:1 (NKJV)
1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

What do you understand of "obtained" here?

Strong's Concordance
lagchanó: to obtain by lot
Original Word: λαγχάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: lagchanó
Phonetic Spelling: (lang-khan'-o)
Short Definition: I obtain by lot, cast lots
Definition: (a) I obtain (receive) by lot, my lot (turn) is, (b) I draw lots.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2975: λαγχάνω

λαγχάνω: 2 aorist ἔλαχον;
1. to obtain by lot (from Homer down): with the genitive of the thing, Luke 1:9 (cf. Buttmann, 269 (231); Winers Grammar, 319 (299)); to receive by divine allotment, obtain: τί, Acts 1:17; 2 Peter 1:1; on the construction of this verb with the genitive and accusative of the thing, see Matthiae, § 328; Winers Grammar, 200 (188); (cf. Buttmann, § 132, 8).

Now with regards TULIP, forget about that. Instead of being bothered by it, drop it and focus on what the scriptures says. Now if you want to deal with TULIP, perhaps you may well start another thread on that.

Alan · « **Reply #132 on:** Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 11:21:29 »

You guys sure can complicate very simple things.

Kenneth Sublett · « **Reply #133 on:** Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 11:44:09 »

Many writers explained this mystery which is hidden from those who do not love the truth. MANY or most are CALLED or invited. However FEW are SELECTED but not by GAMBLING.

sortiti 1. To share, divide, distribute: “pariter laborem Sortiti,” shared the labor, Verg. A. 8, 445: “vices,” id. ib. 3, 634: “periculum,” id. ib. 9, 174.—
2.To choose, select: “subolem armento sortire quot annis,” Verg. G. 3, 71: “fortunam (i.e. locum) oculis,” id. A. 12, 920: “matrimonium,” Just. 26, 3, 8.—
3. gen., to obtain, receive a thing (mostly in the tempp. perff.; not ante-Aug.):

lagkhanō , fut. etc.: generally, obtain as one's portion,

Plat. Rep. [617e] No divinity shall cast lots for you, but you shall choose your own deity. Let him to whom falls the first lot first select a life to which he shall cleave of necessity. But virtue has no master over her,2 and each shall have more or less of her as he honors her or does her despite. The blame is his who chooses: God is blameless.3“’ So saying, the prophet flung the lots out among them all, and each took up the lot that fell by his side, except himself; him they did not permit.4 And whoever took up a lot saw plainly what number he had drawn.

Arnobius, Adversus gentes, ii. 64, says that similarly Christ offers us redemption but does not force it upon us.
3 Justin Martyr.Apol. xliv. 8, quotes this.

Matt. 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
Matt. 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
Matt. 22:3 And SENT FORTH his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
Matt. 22:4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

The INVITATION was cast to ALL but:

Matt. 22:5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
Matt. 22:6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
Matt. 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
Matt. 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
Matt. 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
Matt. 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
Matt. 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
Matt. 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Matt. 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt. 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

The Wedding garment is to be CLOTHED WITH CHRIST available only at BAPTISM: Jesus cast the 'Lots' but he does not PICK THEM UP

TRUE EVANGELISTS cast out the SEED but it is up to the SOIL as to whether they intend to SPROUT.

4WD · « **Reply #134 on:** Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 12:24:17 »

Quote from: Michael2012 on Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 10:57:21

What special faith are you talking about?

You gotta be kidding !! Just about everything you have posted with regard to faith puts it in a totally different realm from the meaning of "pistis" in Greek or "faith" or "belief" in English.

Michael2012 · « **Reply #135 on:** Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 23:45:40 »

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 12:24:17

Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 10:57:21
Quote
What special faith are you talking about?
You gotta be kidding !! Just about everything you have posted with regard to faith puts it in a totally different realm from the meaning of "pistis" in Greek or "faith" or "belief" in English.

Oh, so you call it 'special', the faith that I am talking about because you think it puts faith in a totally different realm from the meaning of "pistis" in Greek or "faith" or "belief" in English. And since you don't view faith as I have posted about here and in the "faith" thread, that to you then it is kind of special. But then, there is not really much difference I think in our view of faith 4WD. We both are taking faith in the context of scriptures. The thing is, I see faith as grace and coming from God, while you see it as produced and coming from you. This is why perhaps you consistently avoid even commenting on 2 Peter 1:1 which speaks of faith as having been obtained or received through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. .

Michael2012 · « **Reply #136 on:** Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 23:56:16 »

Quote from: Kenneth Sublett on Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 11:44:09

Many writers explained this mystery which is hidden from those who do not love the truth.

Sir Ken, this statement of yours interests me. It speaks of people who you say do not love the truth. I have a few basic questions to ask of you regarding this, that perhaps you can give us your answer.

1. What is the truth?
2. Is the truth hidden to some and if so, why is that?
3. How does one know the truth?
4. Who are these people who do not love the truth?

NorrinRadd · « **Reply #137 on:** Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 01:26:41 »

Quote from: Michael2012 on Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 23:45:40

... This is why perhaps you consistently avoid even commenting on 2 Peter 1:1 which speaks of faith as having been obtained or received through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. .

Almost every translation I've checked includes the article "a" before "faith." To me, the context suggests the author is using "faith" as a stand-in for "salvation." I perceive most of the passages that use the expression "the" faith that way also.

Michael2012 · « **Reply #138 on:** Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 03:20:06 »

Going back to the OP:

Quote from: yogi bear on Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 11:21:10

We discuss this verse often and many a different view comes from this verse. I would like to take a little time to try to get to what is meant by this verse.

What is meant by you are saved by grace?

Is grace an action that is done like coming to faith?

Is grace like repenting?

Is grace like a v waving of a magic won?

Grace is Gods plan to redeem man is it not?

Does it have conditions such as faith or repentance or confess Christ or even baptism in Christ name?

Could it be that God put in place a plan to save man even while we were yet dead in our sins and it involves all above but the plan is grace because nothing we can do will ever make us fit fr righteousness with out Gods plan to redeem?

We need to understand just what saved by grace is according to the biblical meaning and not of our personal view.

Sir Yogi, I'll try to give my answer to the questions as simple as I can.

What is meant by you are saved by grace?

It means that you are saved, not because you kind of deserve to be saved for whatever reason. It means that you are saved by one who is able to save you, that is, God, purely out of His sovereign will and out of His loving kindness and unmerited favor, for whatever reason He may have in saving you.

Is grace an action that is done like coming to faith?

Grace is not an action. So, it definitely and could not be something done like coming to faith. In relation to salvation, it is good-will, loving-kindness, unmerited and undeserved favor given by and coming from God, out of His sovereign will for whatever reason He may have in giving it.

Is grace like repenting?

No. See above related answer.

Is grace like a v waving of a magic won?

No. See above related answer. Grace has to do with God's sovereign will and purpose.

Grace is Gods plan to redeem man is it not?

No. Again see above related answer on what grace is. In addition, grace is not some plan of salvation or what. For one, grace is a spiritual blessing that comes forth from God, which speaks of the goodness of God, that certainly produce and brings forth nothing but which is good.

Does it have conditions such as faith or repentance or confess Christ or even baptism in Christ name?

None. As I have pointed out, grace is the goodness of God and comes from God. One's believing, repenting, confessing, being baptized, doing good works, etc., are an entirely different matter from the grace of God. Such things are of no consequence if not for the grace of God. Those things are the consequence of God's grace of the salvation of mankind.

Could it be that God put in place a plan to save man even while we were yet dead in our sins and it involves all above but the plan is grace because nothing we can do will ever make us fit fr righteousness with out Gods plan to redeem?

I don't know. Only God knows. What I do know is that which is revealed to us by God in scriptures with regards the salvation of man. First is that, God created Adam, the father of mankind, who disobeyed God and sinned. Consequently, Adam have brought death to reign over him, and so became a slave to sin. Death and sin obviously has power over Adam and so then to all of Adam's offspring, that is, mankind. Such power, mankind has not the power to defeat and free himself from. Man is unable to save himself from the power of sin and death. The second is that, God have revealed that He will save mankind. And that is the grace of God. And some 2000+ years ago, the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. He is no other than the Lord Jesus Christ, the SAVIOR. He have defeated sin by being sinless. He have defeated death by His resurrection from the dead. It is obvious then, that whoever are in the Lord Jesus Christ's keeping, are delivered/saved from the power and reign of sin and death, and even, will have the power to be able to be victorious over sin, even in this life, even while we are yet to be delivered out from this weak and sinful flesh which is the body of death.

RB · « **Reply #139 on:** Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 03:49:08 »

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 09:36:08

The thing is Michael in so much of what you have said, you are dangerously close to the TULIP brand of theology.

4WD, it is people like you that in the religious community are guilty of religious branding or stigmatizing others more so to turn others against the truth, and or, to keep people from considering the ones that they are putting down, and the ones that pose a threat to their position, in light of God's truth~this method branding God's children have worked on the simple-minded, self-contented, deceived professors of the twenty-first century. Why do you feel you need to call people who embrace grace over man's works as embracing TULIP brand of theology, and that theology being dangerous? Why not just take the word of God and let the scriptures expose a person's position as false and dangerous, being another gospel? It is because you men can not do so.

Quote from: 4WD

Implicit in that, whether or not any TULIP adherent will say so openly, is that if you disagree with them then you can't be saved.

That's not so, 4WD, not so. Of course, God has children in error for we all are to a certain degree. If one is a believer, then he's a child of God, our knowledge is NO litmus test of being born of God~FAITH IS which worketh by LOVE.

Quote from: 4WD

Because according to that TULIP theology, if you have been saved, then you are no longer a "natural" man, but instead a "spiritual" man and receive knowledge directly from the Spirit. And as such the Spirit can't give two different people two different "sets" of knowledge.

4WD, we are BOTH and will be both until death and the resurrection day!

Quote from: 4WD

Therefore if you disagree, then you must still be a "natural" man, hence an unregenerate man and hence unsaved.

ONLY prideful men think that way, and if they do, then they NEED to yet be saved from that ignorance , even though they still may very well be born of God~after all, the holy apostles went through stages of conversion from that prideful state as well~did they not.?!

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