Author Topic: Ephesians 2:8  (Read 53469 times)

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Offline Michael2012

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #140 on: Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 03:57:58 »
Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 23:45:40
Quote
... This is why perhaps you consistently avoid even commenting on 2 Peter 1:1 which speaks of faith as having been obtained or received through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.     .

Almost every translation I've checked includes the article "a" before "faith."  To me, the context suggests the author is using "faith" as a stand-in for "salvation."  I perceive most of the passages that use the expression "the" faith that way also.

I think I could agree with that, though I take it to be what it is, that is, faith. Nonetheless, If you take it to be "salvation", the point in Ephesians 2, that we are saved by grace, and that this is not from ourselves, but is of God, remains. Now, if we try to think deep about what that means, we can't escape the fact that salvation is of God, that it is the work of God, that it is God who will bring this about, that it is God who will accomplish this salvation, that salvation rest & depend on God and to no one else nor to anything else. To think that we somehow have anything to do with our salvation, is I think nothing but pride. Amazingly, we find such people say of their salvation "To God be the glory!" And they say that even while they take away some of the glory for themselves by saying that they have been saved because of this and that, and what they have done. Wow...

So, if we now understand what it means that salvation is of God, and that, salvation is by grace, I leave this question:

What then are the matters of repentance, faith, baptism, good works, etc.?

Offline RB

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #141 on: Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 04:30:55 »
Now, I love to write and speak to myself so be patient with an older person who was baptized in 1942 but didn't learn how to read BLACK text on BROWN Paper until retirement in 1979.
Since you were baptized in 1942, were you an infant, baptized into the RCC? My friend, I would be more than happy to show patience toward you. You quoted many scriptures, so, allow me to see if you are understanding what you are quoting, I have my doubts, Kenneth. But, before I say anything, I will say this, that you seem to love God and his word, that is a good thing, knowledge is as I said above is NOT a true litmus test of those born of God~the true test is FAITH in Jesus Christ, which worketh by LOVE toward others, especially toward those who disagree with your understanding of the scriptures and those who speak hard things concerning you and your faith.

Now you quoted these wonderful scriptures:
Quote from: The apostle Peter
1st Peter 1:18-25~"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."
My brother, I would love for you, 4WD, Yogi bear, and any other give their interpretation of these scriptures given by Peter. I am convinced that you cannot do so. A good lawyer would never ask a question that he did not know the answer to, now would he?

Allow me to get this started (btw, it will flow right into Ephesians 2:8,9 wait and see) When Peter said......
Quote
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever
The true biblical sense and ONLY sense that will flow with ALL scriptures is this: We are born again ACCORDING TO THE testimony of the word of God; or, according to the WITNESS of the word of God, or, according to God's record! Paul and John both said these words:
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 2:1~"And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
And John said these words:
Quote from: John
1st John 5:6-13~"This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."
The word of God give to us HIS RECORD, or declares to us HOW we are born of God! It is NOT the means, but ONLY a witness, testimony, and record, source of information of spiritual truths that we WOULD NOT otherwise know. Those who believe God's witness are giving PROOF that they have been born of God by his grace freely given through Jesus Christ's perfect faith/righteousness/ obedience!
« Last Edit: Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 04:40:11 by RB »

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #142 on: Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 07:06:26 »
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« Last Edit: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 16:56:31 by 4WD »

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #142 on: Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 07:06:26 »

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #143 on: Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 07:45:54 »
Those who believe God's witness are giving PROOF that they have been born of God by his grace freely given through Jesus Christ's perfect faith/righteousness/ obedience!
A couple of questions, RB. 

(1) Do you think Satan and all his angels believe God's witness?  I do.

(2) Does that mean Satan has been born of God?  Definitely not.

Therefore I think your statement here is seriously flawed.  Being born again, i.e., regeneration, is not something that happens to a person based solely upon the counsel of God's own will, some for glory and others for damnation as you present. It is by grace through faith, faith being the response of the person to the testimony of God Himself in His written word.   It is through faith.  Faith is a condition upon which regeneration [being born again] depends. (See my post above re: faith)

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #143 on: Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 07:45:54 »
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Offline Michael2012

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #144 on: Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 11:46:54 »
Do you think Satan and all his angels believe God's witness?  I do.

I don't.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #144 on: Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 11:46:54 »



Offline Michael2012

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #145 on: Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 13:22:18 »
Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 23:45:40
Quote
Oh, so you call it 'special', the faith that I am talking about because you think it puts faith in a totally different realm from the meaning of "pistis" in Greek or "faith" or "belief" in English.
Yes.  you reject the meaning of the word "faith" or "belief", attaching to it a different meaning which you have decided fits better what you like.

As I said, the faith I am talking about is the faith spoken of in Scriptures, such as that spoken of in:

Hebrews 11:1 (NKJV)
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 Peter 1:1(NKJV)
1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 12:8-10(NKJV)
8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

Quote
And since you don't view faith as I have posted about here and in the "faith" thread, that to you then it is kind of special. But then, there is not really much difference I think in our view of faith 4WD. We both are taking faith in the context of scriptures. The thing is, I see faith as grace and coming from God, while you see it as produced and coming from you. This is why perhaps you consistently avoid even commenting on 2 Peter 1:1 which speaks of faith as having been obtained or received through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.

No, you don't view faith as the Bible uses the word.  I don't usually do this for several reasons, but in this case I think it is worth the effort.  The following is taken directly from  The Faith Once For All: Bible Doctrine For Today, by Jack Cottrell, published by College Press Publishing Company, Inc.

The primary condition for receiving (and retaining) God’s saving grace always has been and continues to be faith. This was clearly stated as early as Abraham: “Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness” (Gen 15:6). It is also affirmed in other OT texts (2 Chr 20:20; Jonah 3:5; Hab 2:4). That salvation is still conditioned upon faith is stressed in the NT especially by John (1:12; 3:15-18,36; 6:47; 20:31) and by Paul. When the jailer at Philippi asked Paul and Silas, “‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’” they replied, “‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved’” (Acts 16:30-31). The very theme of Romans is that “a man is justified by faith apart from works of law” (3:28; see also 1:16-17; 3:22,25; 5:1-2; 10:9-10). Abraham (as in Gen 15:6) is cited as the continuing paradigm of justification by faith (Rom 4:1-25; see Gal 3:1-14). See also 1 Cor 1:21; Gal 2:16; 3:26; Eph 2:8; 3:17; Phil 3:9.

The basic NT words for faith are the noun pistos and the verb pisteuo. When these words are used to represent faith as a condition for salvation, they have two main connotations, each of which is a necessary aspect of the total concept of saving faith.

The first aspect of saving faith is usually called assent (sometimes, belief). Assent is an act of the mind, a judgment of the intellect that a particular idea or statement is true. Not all statements accepted as true are matters of faith; some we know to be true by personal experience or by logical reasoning. Technically speaking, the ideas that we accept by faith (assent) are those that enter our consciousness via the testimony of other people. This applies to all ideas accepted on the authority of someone else’s testimony, whether religious or secular. It is a frequent element of everyday life, from newspapers to casual conversation (“How was your day?” “It was fine.”) As an aspect of saving faith it means assenting to the truth of Christ’s own testimony concerning himself as recorded in Scripture, as well as to the truth of the testimony of the apostles and prophets who bear witness to Christ through the biblical writings (Eph 2:20). We believe the testimony is true, even in the absence of firsthand experience (2 Cor 5:7; Heb. 11:1).

Though we call ideas accepted via testimony faith (i.e., assent) and ideas received via experience or reason knowledge, this does not mean that ideas accepted through faith have no solid, rational foundation. Some have the seriously mistaken notion that faith comes into the picture only when we have run out of any rational evidence for accepting something as true, asin the following assertions: “Faith takes over where reason leaves off.” Christian faith requires “rational self-immolation.” “Faith is an illogical belief in the improbable.” One must make a “leap of faith” or have “blind faith.” “Faith is believing what you know ain’t true.” “Faith is belief in something without adequate evidence or proof.” “When you have faith in something, you are not using reason.”

Such ideas are completely false. In reality, in matters of faith, the subjective conviction that a particular testimony is true is based on the sufficiency of objective evidence. We accept another’s testimony about something only if we have good reason to do so. Where Christian faith is concerned, we accept others’ testimony concerning our Savior and our salvation because this testimony is verified as true by corroborating corroborating evidence, as analyzed and presented by Christian apologetics.

In biblical terminology the assent aspect of faith is represented by the phrase “believe that” (pisteuo hoti), i.e., believing with the mind that various statements and claims are true. Hebrews 11:6 says that we must believe that God exists and that He rewards those who seek him. Jesus said those who do not believe that he is who he claims to be will die in their sins (John 8:24). Jesus exhorts Philip to believe that he is in the Father, and the Father is in him (John 14:10-11). John wrote his Gospel so that we may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (John 20:31; see 11:27). Those who believe that God raised Jesus from the dead will be saved (Rom 10:9). This assent aspect is also represented in such concepts as believing Jesus’ words (John 5:47), believing all things written in the law and prophets (Acts 24:14), believing the gospel (Mark 1:15), and believing the truth (2 Thess 2:12-13).

The fact that faith includes this aspect of assent accounts for the NT use of the word faith in the sense of the body of doctrine which is believed or accepted as true, i.e., “the faith.” In this sense one can be “obedient to the faith” (Acts 6:7), be “sound in the faith” (Titus 1:13), “contend earnestly for the faith” (Jude 3; see Phil 1:27), have “unity of the faith” (Eph 4:13), and go “astray from the faith” (1 Tim 6:21).

The second aspect of saving faith is usually called trust. Whereas assent is a judgment of the mind regarding the truth of a statement, trust is a decision of the will to act upon the truth assented to. It is a personal surrender to the implications and consequences of this truth. Such trust is most often directed toward persons. To trust a person is to surrender ourselves or something in our power to that person, as when we place our health and life in the hands of a doctor, or our children into the care of a baby-sitter, or our country into the hands of a particular presidential candidate.

The faith that is a condition for salvation includes such trust, specifically, a decision of the will to surrender everything about ourselves—our time, our possessions, our abilities, our life itself, and our eternal destiny—into the hands of Jesus Christ. Trust is the decision to rest our hope of eternal life upon the saving power of Christ’s cross and resurrection. It is the decision to say, with Paul, “I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day” (2 Tim 1:12).

The biblical concept of trust is represented by the same Greek words as assent (pistis, pisteuo), but by a different kind of phrasing. Assent is believing “that” (hoti) the gospel facts are true; trust is believing “in” (eis) or believing “on” (epi) the person and work of Jesus Christ himself. “Whoever believes in [eis] Him shall not perish, but have eternal life” (John 3:16). “Everyone who believes in [eis] Him receives forgiveness of sins” (Acts 10:43). “‘Believe in [epi] the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved’” (Acts 16:31). We “believe in [epi] Him for eternal life” (1 Tim 1:16).

In the OT era the faith that saved included both assent and trust, i.e., believing that God is truly a gracious God and that his promise to forgive sins is sincere, and believing in or on him as one’s personal Savior. In the NT era saving faith must be directed specifically to Jesus Christ, as we both assent to and trust in the saving power of his death and resurrection (Rom 3:25; 10:9). Assent alone does not meet this condition for salvation. Even demons believe that the God of the Bible is the true God (Jas 2:19) and that Jesus is his Son (Mark 1:24; 5:7). Thus it is incorrect to define faith simply as “belief in testimony,” or even “belief that Jesus died for your sins.” Such assent is necessary, but by itself it is incomplete and insufficient. It is a necessary first step, but it must be followed by a decision of the will to surrender oneself to the mercy and lordship of Jesus Christ.


Cottrell has a lot more to say about this subject, but this will suffice to show you where you have missed the boat on the biblical concept of faith.

Cottrell may well has a lot more to say, but I'm sorry to say that we don't quite have the same view of the salvation of God, at least based on your post. And so perhaps this is why we also have a different view of what scriptures says of faith. For this purpose, let me give you a sense of my view of the salvation of God. I have posted this in my reply to some in this thread and so I'll just quote them.

In post #138:
Quote
First is that, God created Adam, the father of mankind, who disobeyed God and sinned. Consequently, Adam have brought death to reign over him, and so became a slave to sin. Death and sin obviously has power over Adam and so then to all of Adam's offspring, that is, mankind. Such power, mankind has not the power to defeat and free himself from. Man is unable to save himself from the power of sin and death. The second is that, God have revealed that He will save mankind. And that is the grace of God. And some 2000+ years ago, the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. He is no other than the Lord Jesus Christ, the SAVIOR. He have defeated sin by being sinless. He have defeated death by His resurrection from the dead. It is obvious then, that whoever are in the Lord Jesus Christ's keeping, are delivered/saved from the power and reign of sin and death, and even, will have the power to be able to be victorious over sin, even in this life, even while we are yet to be delivered out from this weak and sinful flesh which is the body of death.

In post #140:
Quote
...the point in Ephesians 2, that we are saved by grace, and that this is not from ourselves, but is of God, remains. Now, if we try to think deep about what that means, we can't escape the fact that salvation is of God, that it is the work of God, that it is God who will bring this about, that it is God who will accomplish this salvation, that salvation rest & depend on God and to no one else nor to anything else. To think that we somehow have anything to do with our salvation, is I think nothing but pride. Amazingly, we find such people say of their salvation "To God be the glory!" And they say that even while they take away some of the glory for themselves by saying that they have been saved because of this and that, and what they have done. Wow...

So, if we now understand what it means that salvation is of God, and that, salvation is by grace, I leave this question:

What then are the matters of repentance, faith, baptism, good works, etc.
?

Perhaps you can comment on those in red.

Cottrell, in talking about faith, said "Even demons believe that the God of the Bible is the true God (Jas 2:19)". It gives me the impression that he is saying that demons have faith, though he may say that such faith is not what he says is saving faith. Nonetheless, it remains to be faith for that matter, isn't it? In James 2:19, it says that the demons too believe that there is one God, as we do. Does that mean that demons have faith? I'd say NO. This verse clearly tells us what faith is not in the sense of believing. Clearly then faith is more than belief. What it is exactly can only be known in Jesus Christ. And I'd guess that you don't understand what I meant by that at all.   
 

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #145 on: Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 13:22:18 »

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #146 on: Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 14:38:19 »


As I said, the faith I am talking about is the faith spoken of in Scriptures, such as that spoken of in:

Hebrews 11:1 (NKJV)
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 Peter 1:1(NKJV)
1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 12:8-10(NKJV)
8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
Well first off, there is nothing in Hebrews 11:1 or 2 Peter 1:1 that is contrary to anything that I posted from Cottrell.  Second, the faith in 1 Corinthians 12:8 is a spiritual gift given to a few select believers, i.e., one who has already been saved by grace through faith.  If you do not understand that then you are even further from the truth than I have at first thought.  And by the way, since I am a cessationist, I believe all such miraculous spiritual gifts ceased with the last apostle of Christ.
Quote
Perhaps you can comment on those in red:

So, if we now understand what it means that salvation is of God, and that, salvation is by grace, I leave this question:

What then are the matters of repentance, faith, baptism, good works, etc.?

Of course.  Salvation is by grace as stated again and again;  faith repentance, baptism are conditions upon which God has presented to receive the gift of salvation by grace; of those faith is of course the preeminent condition.  Works is not a condition upon which salvation is to be received, but it is a criterion upon which we shall all be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ [the Bema].

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #147 on: Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 16:06:25 »
If one has a HOLY spirit or A good conscience or consciousness: they will be Disciple of Christ and knows better to try to find how BAPTISM SAVES because out of the curse of the Monarchy

JESUS SAID AND NO ONE SHOULD TRY TO TRUMP HIMM

Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Matt. 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

1Pet. 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

The word BELIEVETH means to COMPLY and be Baptized FOR the remission]

Faith in any context other as being the opposite of THE LAW OF MUSES must become active and obey whatever is commanded.  Abraham was justified BECAUSE He kept God's laws and decrees.

1Cor. 12:8 For to ONE is given by the Spirit [MIND]the WORD of wisdom;
          to ANOTHER the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Cor. 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Cor. 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

People tend to believe that they were--are PROPHETS able to teach the WORD knowledge to be able to teach the Word by inspiration.  If you have ONE able to SPEAK the Word you don't need ANTHER ONE.  Peter says that thee Prophecies were made more certain and the Apostles as eye- and ear-- witnesses left US a MEMORY.

Quote
]Hab. 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by HIS faith.

Hab. 2:2 And the Lord answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon TABLES, that he may run that READETH it.
Hab. 2:3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall SPEAK, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry

Jack Cottrell just quotes of text books and will not or cannot read THE REST OF THE STORY.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #148 on: Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 16:56:10 »
Jack Cottrell just quotes of text books and will not or cannot read THE REST OF THE STORY.
I have no idea what you are referring to with "THE REST OF THE STORY". But Kenneth, if you think that he just "quotes from text books" then perhaps that explains why so many of your posts seem little more than the ramblings of a very confused person; some truth but mostly gibberish  Perhaps all those demonic musical instruments have you a little rattled.

I will suggest that your interpretation of the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38 is one indication of that.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #148 on: Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 16:56:10 »

Offline RB

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #149 on: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 04:46:40 »
Yes.  you reject the meaning of the word "faith" or "belief", attaching to it a different meaning which you have decided fits better what you like.No, you don't view faith as the Bible uses the word.  I don't usually do this for several reasons, but in this case I think it is worth the effort.  The following is taken directly from  The Faith Once For All: Bible Doctrine For Today, by Jack Cottrell, published by College Press Publishing Company, Inc. ...

Cottrell has a lot more to say about this subject, but this will suffice to show you where you have missed the boat on the biblical concept of faith.
So many errors in this short essay on faith by Mr. Cottrell. I glanced over some of his work before posting this, so I know more where he's coming from. It's all about "time", but I'm thinking about refuting some of his perverted use of scriptures, yet not knowing if it would serve very much purpose, so I'm still considering. I will only add a point for now, he said:
Quote from: Jack Cottrell
Thus it is incorrect to define faith simply as “belief in testimony,” or even “belief that Jesus died for your sins.” Such assent is necessary, but by itself it is incomplete and insufficient. It is a necessary first step, but it must be followed by a decision of the will to surrender oneself to the mercy and lordship of Jesus Christ.
While I AGREE that true faith is MORE than just an belief in testimony, and that WORKS DO FOLLOW wherever there's faith, YET, the MAIN argument is NOT over these points, but by WHOSE FAITH/OBEDIENCE/RIGHTEOUSNESS are the ONLY grounds for one to be legally justified in God's sight! Sir, THIS IS where the battle rages, not over the definition of what constitutes true faith itself!

Mr. Cottrell articles would be easy to refuted on many fronts, no problem. The poor man does not know how to interpret this wonderful scripture~he started out by saying:
Quote from: Jack Cottrell
The primary condition for receiving (and retaining) God’s saving grace always has been and continues to be faith. This was clearly stated as early as Abraham: “Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness” (Gen 15:6).
Would you like for me to give the proper sense of this scripture and others like it, maybe this would save me much labor and time?  He certainly does not know how Moses used this scripture, yet Paul did in Galatians three, and btw, so did David! Need help?
« Last Edit: Thu Nov 02, 2017 - 04:20:25 by RB »

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #150 on: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 06:25:27 »
So many errors in this short essay on faith by Mr. Cottrell.

A couple of things here.  First, one of the things that I like about Dr. Cottrell's work is that in those areas of contention within the Christian community he presents all or most of the competing concepts or interpretations and then proceeds to argue for the correct or proper one. 

Second, it is interesting and pertinent to the discussion that he obtained his MDIV degree from Westminster Theological Seminary.  As you probably know, Westminster is a Presbyterian and Reformed Christian graduate educational institution.  Therefore he is well versed in the very concepts that you espouse.  He described to some of us one day his experiences at Westminster.  On exams he would often present the answers that he knew were to be expected and then would proceed to give his own [the correct] answers to those same questions.

I am a bit indebted to him because he was about the first person to get me to begin really looking at the Reformed Theology teaching, its good side and its bad side.

So no, RB, I really wouldn't care for your sense of this scripture and others like it.  I already know your sense and reject it because, quite simply, it is based on a false premise [actually more than one false premise]. 

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #151 on: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 08:21:30 »
I already know your sense and reject it because, quite simply, it is based on a false premise [actually more than one false premise].
I'm convinced that you do not know, for I have never (maybe I have, but certainly not very often) giving the biblical sense of Genesis 15:6. That's okay if you are contented not knowing, yet, I would if someone else asked for it that sincerely wanted to compare their understanding with another believer who may differ from them.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #152 on: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 08:44:37 »
RB, I can read how those such as Clark or Gill or Sproul interpret such passages.  I would not expect yours to be very much different.  I reject theirs because as I said, they are based upon a false premise(s).  And yours is based upon the same false premise(s).

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #153 on: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 09:54:53 »
RB, I can read how those such as Clark or Gill or Sproul interpret such passages.  I would not expect yours to be very much different.
I never have read behind Sproul; Adam Clark (assuming that's who you meant) very, very little other than his position on the Sonship of Jesus Christ, which I fully agree with. Concerning Gill I have a lot behind Gill and I'm thankful for many things he teaches, yet I cannot remember off hand if I have ever read his position on faith as it is used concerning Abraham's faith, maybe I have, but will this afternoon, if time permits and then I should remember. He was a very gifted teacher. Mr. Sproul is a Calvinist, I am not, yet both are very close EXCEPT in relation to faith as it pertains to regeneration~yet, I am sure we would be close, yet not totally.
Quote from: 4WD
I reject theirs because as I said, they are based upon a false premise(s).  And yours is based upon the same false premise(s).
Sir, calling another position other than your own position a system built on "false premise(s)" means not one thing and certainly proves nothing! I can call the Mormons and other groups a false cult, but what does that prove UNLESS I can prove it with the word of God?

A thought for you to consider....Do you know why football teams (I did play sports in school) run trick plays? Because they know they can not beat the other team straight up, so they MUST rely on such plays hoping to gain advantage~so likewise, you quoted a long quote by Jack Cottrell hoping to help your weak position out, but like trick plays, they can come back and hurt more than they were worth! If time permits, then I will prove it.
« Last Edit: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 13:17:18 by RB »

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #154 on: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 10:29:31 »
...... but like trick plays, they can come back and hurt more than they were worth! If time permits, then I will prove it.
But it is the premise(s) not the conclusion(s) that I maintain to be the problem.  So that whatever you try to (dis)prove will in fact center around the "trick play".  RB, among your trick plays is that regeneration precedes faith.   Thus, just about everything you have to say about faith starts with, or at least involves, that "trick play"; and as you say that simply backfires.  But, of course, you are free to run your trick plays.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #155 on: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 10:38:13 »
Barton W. Stones denied the atonement: he and A.Campbell has several exchanges of view Campbell. Calvinists must deny the Atonement or anything that Jesus did or said because that would interfere with Calvinism.  Cottrell  list 14 pages he used including Sproul .  His book on INSTRUMENTS displays the same "proof texts" and shows that  Theology (Study of Apollon) Doesn't need to use the ANTITHETICAL proof.

Jack Cottrell: The New Testament is similarly silent about a whole host of issues other than the musical instrument, and the churches of Christ argue among themselves as to whether they should be forbidden or not. Since the Bible is silent about Sunday school, some say it is prohibited; but others say it is OK.

The WORD or LOGOS is the Regulative Principle or Governing Principle.  God BREATHED and Jesus SPOKE only what the Father commanded.  Logos outlalws personal opinions, personal experiences, rhetoric, poetry, singing, playing instruments or acting.

There are NO historic scholars or founders of denominations who do not support the BIBLICAL view about silence.

God is HOLY SPIRIT or Wholly Spirit and Jesus says that a "spirit does not have flesh or bones."

God breathed (spirit) and Jesus articulated the WORD or Logos.  God breathed that same Spirit OF Melslsiah into the Propjets and THEY connect musical instrumentss to telling God to shut up and to BURNING.  That Spirit in Isaiah says that IF THEY DO NOT SPEAK THE LAWS AND COVENANTS THAT THERE IS NO LIGHT IN THEM.

Ruwach, Ventus or Pneuma literally means only WIND and figurative of Breath.  Dorea may be confused with Charisma where God's Spirit rests UPON people to work miracles.

John 20:22 And when he had SAID this, he BREATHED on them, and SAITH unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Spirit is:

g 4154 from <G4154> (pneo); a current of AIR, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figurative a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implicaiton) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, dæmon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit :- ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare <G5590> (psuche).
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

John 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the GIFT OF GOD, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have ASKED of him, and he would have given thee living water
John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

In Amos 8 and Isaiah 5 musical instruments CAUSED the people to hunger and thirst for the WORD.

The gift of God the WORD sent Jesus to speak only what the Spirit without measure (metron, meter]

g1431.  dorea, do-reh-ah´; from 1435; a gratuity: — gift.
g1435.   doron, do´-ron; a present; specially, a SACRIFICE: — gift, offering.

Acts 2:38 the GIFT is  g1431k and NOT CHARISMA which makes preachers think that their views ARE of Christ. God said that the imagination of humans is only evil continually.



« Last Edit: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 10:45:05 by Kenneth Sublett »

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #156 on: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 10:58:59 »
The WORD or LOGOS is the Regulative Principle or Governing Principle.  God BREATHED and Jesus SPOKE only what the Father commanded.  Logos outlalws personal opinions, personal experiences, rhetoric, poetry, singing, playing instruments or acting.
God, and the Bible, is silent about electricity, but I would be willing to bet that you have electric lighting in every church building that you and your congregation gather; that is assuming that you do meet together as a congregation in some meeting place.  I would bet also that you have some manner of central heating and air conditioning also.  But as they say, whatever floats your boat. And I would also bet that you study, in your church, from a Bible printed on a modern printing press, a printing press on which the Bible is silent.  Sorry, ken, but your position on so much of this is simply indefensible.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #157 on: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 11:20:28 »
NONE of the "scholars" in these last days understands the ASSEMBLY nor the Purpose Driven "synagogue" which Paul uses for gathering, assembling or Coming Together.  The purpose from the winderness onward without change and briefly restored by the CAMPBELLS was:

EXCLUSIVELY of vocal or instrumental rejoicing or self-authored rhetoric
INCLUSIVE of Rest, Reading and Rehearsing the Word.

That pattern was well documented long before the people fell into INSTRUMENTAL PLAY around the golden calf. Read Acts 7 to grasp that God commanded nothing about the sacrificial system used as a PATTERN for "instrumental worship." No Godly Jew was permitted to be inside the gates during the curse of sacrifices.



The WORD or LOGOS is the Regulative Principle outlawing anything not connected to TEACHING Christians who are disciples who are STUDENTS.  Worship was always giving heed to God and HIS Word.  You don't know anyone seeing godliness as a means of financial gain  or occupation who does not follow the TRADE of corrupting the WORD or selling anything else as "selling learning at retail."




Offline Michael2012

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #158 on: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 12:39:47 »
Well first off, there is nothing in Hebrews 11:1 or 2 Peter 1:1 that is contrary to anything that I posted from Cottrell.  Second, the faith in 1 Corinthians 12:8 is a spiritual gift given to a few select believers, i.e., one who has already been saved by grace through faith.  If you do not understand that then you are even further from the truth than I have at first thought.  And by the way, since I am a cessationist, I believe all such miraculous spiritual gifts ceased with the last apostle of Christ.

Regarding your post on Mr. Cottrell, there is nothing in there that speaks of faith as conforming to what Hebrews 11:1 says of faith. So, as expected, we won't find anything he said that would go against what Hebrews 11:1 says of faith. Though we can say that he failed to consider this scriptures in trying to tell us what faith is according to scriptures. It amazes me that he had not included a verse that explicitly tells us what faith is according to the writer of Hebrews in his discussion of faith. Also, he apparently failed to consider what 2 Peter 1:1 says about faith which speaks of faith as having been obtained or received. So we can see why he does not mention anything about faith in that sense. This is why perhaps he sees faith as not coming from God or given by God, for he seems to see faith as coming from the person or produced and generated by the person.

With regards 1 Cor, 12:8-10, I know that the faith given here is to some believers. But I cited this scriptures about faith, to point out to people here who thinks that faith can't come from God as they believe that faith involves the person's will or decision, just like Mr. Cottrell, that faith can and does come from God as 1 Cor. 12:8-10 so testifies.         

You really need to seriously consider answering these questions, even just within yourself. I think it will bring you new light.

Have you changed as a person because you did or because God changed you? Or is it  the Christian who changed himself to a new person or is it God who changed him?

Have you changed a person's conviction about sin, righteousness and judgement, or is it God? Or is it the Christian preacher who change a person's conviction about sin, righteousness and judgement, or is it God? 

Quote
Perhaps you can comment on those in red:

So, if we now understand what it means that salvation is of God, and that, salvation is by grace, I leave this question:

What then are the matters of repentance, faith, baptism, good works, etc.?
Of course.  Salvation is by grace as stated again and again;  faith repentance, baptism are conditions upon which God has presented to receive the gift of salvation by grace; of those faith is of course the preeminent condition.  Works is not a condition upon which salvation is to be received, but it is a criterion upon which we shall all be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ [the Bema].

So we agree that salvation is by grace. And this being, salvation is of God and is the work of God. But do you agree that in God's salvation, it is God who will bring it about, that it is God who will accomplish this salvation, that salvation rest & depend on God and to no one else nor to anything else?

You seem to say that while salvation is by grace, you take it as somehow dependent on the person by saying that the salvation of God is conditioned upon something that the person must do, which implies that God can't accomplish His salvation without it. And this somehow renders God's salvation to be dependent on the man. But then the almighty and sovereign God is dependent upon no one, or do you believe He is? If God's salvation is conditioned upon something that the person does, how can it be by grace, when grace is something unmerited and undeserved and is free?

I am aware that some, as I had at time past, will have a problem with this, in relation to scriptures which speaks of telling us to repent, to believe, to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to do good works, etc. to be saved, which seems to say that one is saved on the condition that they do all these things. And in this I understand them, in as much as this has been what it seems to be how it was before Jesus Christ came except for baptism in the name of Christ, that is, in the old covenant times. But we must realize that when the Christ had come and had done what He was sent by God to do, there was a huge change, and that Christ came down from heaven into the world for a number of reasons and purposes. Part of the change is the changing of the old covenant to a new and superior covenant with better promises. 

Now, let's search and examine the scriptures as to why there is the need to change the covenant and at the same time see, among numerous, one of the reasons why Christ came to this effect. In Hebrews 8, we learn that Jesus is the mediator of a new covenant, making the old covenant, whose mediator was Moses, to be made and rendered obsolete. In the same reference scriptures, we learn that there was need of a new covenant for the reason that there was something wrong with the old covenant. The fault was found to be with the people, the Israelites. Israel broke the covenant and did not continue in it. What does that mean? One is that Israel has not the power to fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law and continue in it. That is because the Law was weak through the flesh, and that the Law did not have the power to enable them to fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law and remain faithful to God. And so, God promised to make a new covenant with them. For in this new covenant, is included, the power whereby God's people may remain faithful, namely the presence of God living within the believer, that is, the Holy Spirit.

Another thing in the old covenant was that the law can never with the sacrifices of the blood of bulls and goats which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. Otherwise, they would have stopped being offered, for the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. The gifts and sacrifices being offered under the old Mosaic Law were not able to clear the conscience of the worshipers. But this, in the new covenant, is no longer the case. For in the new covenant, God having said "I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more", and with such will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Having said all these, the point is that, the matters of faith, repentance, good works, etc., are not matters that effect the salvation of God of His chosen people, but are rather, the very things that the chosen people of God will have as being one of the result of the salvation work of Christ, having put in effect the new covenant by His death on the cross.

For God said of the new covenant:

1. I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts;
2. I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
3. I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

We must not fail to notice of the amazing grace that is in the new covenant, of its better promises than in the old, which are all 'I WILL' and unconditional.

Praise be to God indeed!!!   
« Last Edit: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 21:23:32 by Michael2012 »

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #159 on: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 13:10:37 »
Regarding your post on Mr. Cottrell, there is nothing in there that speaks of faith as conforming to what Hebrews 11:1 says of faith.
And there is nothing there that conflicts with Hebrews 11:1. 

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #160 on: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 13:17:22 »
My apologies go out to Dr. Cottrell.  If I could I would go back and delete it all. I am sorry to inflict him upon the likes of too many here.  I shall not do it again.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #161 on: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 13:26:23 »
We must not fail to notice of the amazing grace that is in the new covenant, of its better promises than in the old, which are all 'I WILL' and unconditional.

Praise be to God indeed!!!
If salvation is unconditional then so is condemnation.  And with either being unconditional, then you have no way whatever of knowing to which group you have been assigned.  That of course was a fallacy of Calvin's teachings as he originally proposed.  People adhering, in and soon after his lifetime, to his teaching recognized that and would keep long lists of their "fruits" in the hope that might indicate into which stall they have been place.  Reformed Theology has since tried, poorly and unsuccessfully, to correct that little bit of idiocy.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #162 on: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 13:56:41 »
My apologies go out to Dr. Cottrell.  If I could I would go back and delete it all. I am sorry to inflict him upon the likes of too many here.  I shall not do it again.
Grown up and be a man. That's false humility! He has authored and published twenty different books, and once anyone does so, they put themselves out in the public domain to be accepted or criticized, and every child of God is commanded to try the spirits to see if they be of God or not, he does not deserve to be safeguarded from this, and neither does any man, including myself, and he probably desires to be tested IF he's worth his salt (unless he doing so for money, which many do) and If he believes he has truth, which I'm sure he does, and I'm just as sure he does not.     
« Last Edit: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 14:00:03 by RB »

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #163 on: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 14:04:43 »
Grown up and be a man. That's false humility! He has authored and published twenty different books, and once anyone does so, they put themselves out in the public domain to be accepted or criticized, and every child of God is commanded to try the spirits to see if they be of God or not, he does not deserve to be safeguarded from this, and neither does any man, including myself, and he probably desires to be tested IF he's worth his salt (unless he doing so for money, which many do) and If he believes he has truth, which I'm sure he does, and I'm just as sure he does not.   
But I did not do so in such a way that he could defend himself.  I should have simply pointed to his book so that if anyone were interested they could address themselves to his entire discourse on the subject not just the few paragraphs that I posted.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #164 on: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 14:21:01 »
Jack Cottrell: The New Testament is similarly silent about a whole host of issues other than the musical instrument, and the churches of Christ argue among themselves as to whether they should be forbidden or not. Since the Bible is silent about Sunday school, some say it is prohibited; but others say it is OK.

Amos 5:26 But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images,
        the STAR of your god, which ye made to yourselves.

    Acts 7:41 And they made a calf in those days,
            and offered sacrifice unto the idol,
            and rejoiced in the works of their own hands



The practice in the wilderness, tyre and Jerusalem

Acts 7:42 Then God turned,
        and gave them up to worship the HOST of heaven;
        as it is written in the book of the prophets,
        O ye house of Israel,  have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices
        by the space of forty years in the wilderness?



Amos 5:27 Therefore will I cause you to go into
        captivity beyond Damascus,
        saith the LORD, whose name is The God of hosts.
Acts 7:43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch,
        and the star of your god Remphan,
        figures which ye made to worship them:
        and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

Mark 10:33 Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem;
        and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests,
        and unto the scribes [hypocrites: speakers, singers, instrument players];
        and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:

    Psa. 22:12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
    Psa. 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet

    Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter. Is.56:11

    And I will appoint over them four kinds, saith the Lord: the sword to slay, and the dogs to tear, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the earth, to devour and destroy. Je.15:3
 Mark 10:34 And they shall mock him,

    Latin Illudo  as a female: Applied as a term of reproach, effeminate men, eloquence, rhētor but with idea of contempt, caneret,”
    A. Of men: “si absurde canat, of the crooked race, a reed pipe, a guitar, crowing of a hen tibiae, tubae,  Gallus , i, m., = Gallos Strab., A. Galli , the priests of Cybele, on account of their emasculated condition) Gallic: “turma,” the troop of the priests of Isis, Ov. Am. 2, 13, 18.  “resupinati cessantia tympana Galli,”

    Gallos , ho, A. priest of Cybele, gallazō , A. practise cult of Cybele, Galli. Eunuch priests of Cybele or the great mother: begun under the reign of Erichthonius, king of Attica, B.C. 1506;



Paizo, 4. play on a musical instrument, h.Ap.206: c. acc., “Pan ho kalamophthogga paizōn” Ar.Ra.230; dance and sing, Pi. O.1.16. 5. play amorously, “pros allēlous” X.Smp.9.2

Prospaizō, prospaizousa tois ōmois komē playing over, II. c. acc., theous p. sing to the gods, sing in their praise or honour, Pl.Epin.980b: c. dupl. acc., humnon prosepaisamen . . ton . . Erōta sang a hymn in praise of Eros, Id.Phdr.265c. 2. banter , “tous rhētoras” Id.Mx.235c, cf. Euthd.285a; p. ton kuna, ton arkton, , humnon pr. ton Erōt

In the TWO NATIONS ALLEGORY and in Revelation Jerusalem is the Mother of Harlots and called SODOM

Places like LU will not let you BUY OR SELL unless you have taken the property of widows to ADD instruments or are OF NOTE attacking ANTI-instrumentalists who learned NOT to make vocal or instrumental noises in the Church of Messiah (the Rock) in the wilderness and understand that AFTER Israel was abandoned to worship the starry host (I am sorry that you didn't get to read Acts 7 when they sold you that still-bleeding sheepskin.

LU and other churches are heavily influenced by men like Joseph Shulam practicing Anti Christ CHRISTIAN MEDIATOR and build upon THE BABYLONIAN TALMUD.

Rev. 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
Rev. 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
Rev. 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Rev. 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.





« Last Edit: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 14:28:50 by Kenneth Sublett »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #165 on: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 14:22:07 »
We may not be far apart when it's all said and done,  some we will but not as far as it may seem. With much respect to you and your gifted talents that you do have, I must respectfully disagree, that the Greek is needed to come unto the knowledge of the truth. What is needed above knowing the Greek is this:  My dear brother, nowhere in the scriptures do we read of Christ, or his apostles going forth and telling anyone that knowing the original langauge of the OT was important in coming to the true understanding of what they had before them called the word of God. They took the scriptures preserved for them and boldly preach the word of God to others, trusting just what Paul prayed for the saints at Ephesus, which as we quoted above: Truth is NOT found in so-called Greek language, but in the scriptures given to us by God. Brother NO MAN has seen the original epistles written by the apostles and neither do we need them....and besides, we have them, and BY FAITH we truly believe this to be so.

One more thought~most of God's children are the poor and unlearned of this world, NOT the mighty and noble and wise~ knowing this, we trust our God that he has preserved for us his word according to Psalm 12 and we truly believe he has, and we allow others to try to convince men that they are wise by knowing something they truly do not know, since the original are all long gone. 

Now, who has the spirit of wisdom and revelation/understanding given by God that will allow them to come unto the knowledge of his truth? We truly pray this for all sincere children of God.
Greek isn't necessary.  It's just helpful.  In the case of this particular verse, it lets us clear up something that is otherwise ambiguous.

Your comparison, though... that isn't apples to apples.  Nobody would ever appeal to Hebrew for clarity.  Old Hebrew is replete with ambiguities.  You don't teach from it, so much as you argue over what it means!  That was what the Pharisees and Sadducees did - they read the Scriptures to the people in a dead language, and then gave them several competing legal arguments as to the meaning of it all.

Jesus and company, by way of contrast, preached to the people with authority, which is to say, they gave them an unambiguous reading of the Scriptures in their native tongue.

Allow me to do likewise:

You were as corpses, because of your errors and rebellion in times past, when you walked in the ways of the world, under the direction of its wicked prince, who still inspires disobedience in the children, even today.

And we all were once part of these children, and went about gratifying our appetites, and whims.

Until God, out of his wealth of mercies, gave us help, namely this great help: that when we were but corpses and offenders, he made us live, together with His Anointed.  Because of God's generosity, you were healed,

Resurrected together, and seated together in positions of authority under Jesus, His Anointed.

So that He might show to the generations to come the surpassing abundance of His generosity in His benevolences to us, by Jesus, His Anointed.

Because of God's generosity you were healed.  It is not from yourselves; the gift is from God.

Not by efforts, so no man may take credit.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #166 on: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 14:27:57 »
God, and the Bible, is silent about electricity, but I would be willing to bet that you have electric lighting in every church building that you and your congregation gather; that is assuming that you do meet together as a congregation in some meeting place.  I would bet also that you have some manner of central heating and air conditioning also.  But as they say, whatever floats your boat. And I would also bet that you study, in your church, from a Bible printed on a modern printing press, a printing press on which the Bible is silent.  Sorry, ken, but your position on so much of this is simply indefensible.
I don't think its as silent as you think on that subject, but I'll let Ken answer for himself.

edit: looks like he already did, and its all OT, and therefore a bit... obfuscated, so I guess I'll just say it:

God, and the Bible, are hostile to the notion of any building, and especially to the cost of the upkeep of such a house, and of any professional clergyman.

Of churches:
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:24

Of clergy:
My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray,
Jer 50:6

Of worship so-called:
For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
Psa 51:16

The pattern is still the same old pattern - the shepherds are there to fleece the flock, not just protect it.  For their part, the sheep are amenable to it, apparently even when the shepherds can't/don't/won't deliver on the protection.

Jarrod
« Last Edit: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 14:47:48 by Wycliffes_Shillelagh »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #167 on: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 14:38:56 »
I count it a great pleasure that as a GOD-CREATED person NOT OF THIS WORLD He didn't think He had to tell me to get in out of the rain or have a bathroom with toilet tissue close.   In fact "they burned up all of the houses of god.  Synagogue always existed and Jacob commanded us not to attend the assemblies (synagogues) of the Levites nor inter into covenant with them.

Jesus WENT INTO synagogues which were widely built after the Return and the Sacrificial System was pretty much dead. As a PATTERN of decency and order Jesus STOOD UP to Read, made a short application and SAT DOWN.  The pulpit was to hold up the SCROLL ore even a bound LXX and not to hold up the peacher.

If the command of both male and female to be SILENT so that we might "All be SAFE and Come to a Knowledge OF THE TRUTH."  Why would a simple simon want to make NOISE when Jesus comes to be our ONLY Teacher where APT elders obey the command to TEACH THAT WHICH HAS BEEN TAUGHT.
« Last Edit: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 14:41:31 by Kenneth Sublett »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #168 on: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 16:27:37 »
God is God and we are not: He ASSERTS and does not suggest.  I worry about two problems:

That where God has not revealed then WE have the right to IMPOSE knowing that we are going to SOW DISCORD.
The other is that people claim that God is SILENT about the use of instruments--mostly of doing hard labor or inducing the shock and awe of religious rituals.

We can all worry about those who claim that God COMMANDED and NEEDED the slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent animal where the NOISE of the Jacob-Cursed and God-Abandoned Levites where music is derived from mysteries (Paul's wrath) intended to make the lambs dumb before the slaughter. 

No Calvinist reads Calvin when they can use the Professor's TEXT BOOK and maybe get a good grade.

THE NECESSITY OF REFORMING THE CHURCH OF CHRIST

http://www.piney.com/Calvin-Reform-1.html

TO THE MOST INVINCIBLE EMPEROR CHARLES V., AND THE MOST ILLUSTRIOUS PRINCES AND OTHER ORDERS, NOW HOLDING A DIET OF THE EMPIRE AT SPIRES,

A HUMBLE EXHORTATION SERIOUSLY TO UNDERTAKE THE TASK OF RESTORING THE CHURCH. PRESENTED IN THE NAME OF ALL THOSE WHO WISH CHRIST TO REIGN. AUGUST EMPEROR,

For where can I exert myself to better purpose or more honestly, where, too, in a matter at this time more necessary, than in attempting, according to my ability, to aid the CHURCH  OF CHRIST whose claims it is unlawful in any instance to deny, and which is now in grievous distress, and in extreme danger?

But there is no occasion for a long preface concerning myself. Receive what I say as you would do if it were pronounced by the united voice

    of all those who either have already taken care to restore the Church,
    or are desirous that it should be restored to true order.

I come now to ceremonies, which, while they ought to be grave attestations of divine worship, are rather a mere mockery of God.
        A new Judaism, as a substitute for that which God had distinctly abrogated,
        has again been reared up by means of numerous puerile extravagancies,
        collected from different quarters; and with these have been mixed up certain impious rites,
        partly borrowed from the heathen, and more adapted to some THEATRICAL SHOWthan to the dignity of our religion.

The first evil here is, that an immense number of ceremonies, which God had by his authority ABROGATED, once for all have been again revived.

The next evil is, that while CEREMONIES ought to be living exercises of piety, men are vainly occupied with numbers of them that are both frivolous and useless.

But by far the most deadly evil of all is, that after men have thus mocked God with ceremonies of one kind or other, they think they have fulfilled their duty as admirably as if these ceremonies included in them the whole essence of piety and divine worship.

Having observed that the Word of God is the test which discriminates between his true worship and that which is false and vitiated, we thence readily infer that the whole form of divine worship in general use in the present day is nothing but mere corruption.

For men pay no regard to what God has commanded, or to what he approved, in order that they may serve him in a becoming manner,

    but assume to themselves a licence of devising modes of worship,
    and AFTERWARD OBTRUDING them upon him as a substitute for obedience.

By this self-abasement we are trained to obedience and devotedness to his will, so that his fear reigns in our hearts, and regulates all the actions of our lives. That in these things consists the true and sincere worship which alone God approves, and in which alone He delights, is both taught by the Holy Spirit throughout the Scriptures, and is also, antecedent to discussion, the obvious dictate of piety.

Nor from the beginning was there any other method of worshipping God, the only difference being, that this spiritual truth, which with us is naked and simple, was under the former dispensation wrapt up in figures.

John Calvin on continuing Revelation

http://www.piney.com/CalvinSpWord.html

1.The fanatics wrongly appeal to the Holy Spirit Those who, rejecting Scripture, imagine that they have some peculiar way of penetrating to God, are to be deemed not so much under the influence of error as madness. For certain giddy men have lately appeared, who, while they make a great display of the superiority of the Spirit,

    reject all reading of the Scriptures themselves, and deride the simplicity of those who only delight in what they call the dead and deadly letter.

    But I wish they would tell me what spirit it is whose inspiration raises them to such a sublime height that they dare despise the doctrine of Scripture as mean and childish.   

Online 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #169 on: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 16:55:00 »
I don't think its as silent as you think on that subject, but I'll let Ken answer for himself.

edit: looks like he already did, and its all OT, and therefore a bit... obfuscated, so I guess I'll just say it:

God, and the Bible, are hostile to the notion of any building, and especially to the cost of the upkeep of such a house, and of any professional clergyman.

Of churches:
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:24

Of clergy:
My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray,
Jer 50:6

Of worship so-called:
For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
Psa 51:16

The pattern is still the same old pattern - the shepherds are there to fleece the flock, not just protect it.  For their part, the sheep are amenable to it, apparently even when the shepherds can't/don't/won't deliver on the protection.

Jarrod
What has that to do with using electricity, furnaces or air conditioners anywhere that any might be meeting together?

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #170 on: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 19:09:21 »
You begin to understand those who do not appreciate GRACE. When God speaks His disciples male and female remain quiet so that All can be SAFE and come to a knowledge of the truth. 

Hab. 2:19 Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach! Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it.
Hab. 2:20 But the Lord is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him.

Psa. 50:7  Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, and I will testify against thee: I am God, even thy God.
Psa. 50:8 I will not reprove [justify] thee for thy sacrifices or thy burnt offerings, to have been continually before me.
Psa. 50:9 I will take no bullock out of thy house, nor he goats out of thy folds.
Psa. 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
Psa. 50:11 I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.
Psa. 50:12 If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof.
Psa. 50:13 Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats?

INSTEAD
Psa. 50:14 Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High:
Psa. 50:15 And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.
Psa. 50:16 But unto the wicked God saith,
          What hast thou to do to declare my statutes,
          or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth?
Psa. 50:17 Seeing thou hatest instruction, and castest my words behind thee.

The Spirit OF Messiah in Isaiah 1 and Jeremiah 7 (and other passages) deny that God commanded sacrifices or burnt offerings when He saved them BY GRACE and gave them  The Book of The Covenant based on grace

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #171 on: Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 22:31:32 »
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 12:39:47
Quote
We must not fail to notice of the amazing grace that is in the new covenant, of its better promises than in the old, which are all 'I WILL' and unconditional.

Praise be to God indeed!!!
If salvation is unconditional then so is condemnation.  And with either being unconditional, then you have no way whatever of knowing to which group you have been assigned.  That of course was a fallacy of Calvin's teachings as he originally proposed.  People adhering, in and soon after his lifetime, to his teaching recognized that and would keep long lists of their "fruits" in the hope that might indicate into which stall they have been place.  Reformed Theology has since tried, poorly and unsuccessfully, to correct that little bit of idiocy.

First is that, what I was saying as unconditional are the promises of God in the New covenant, not salvation. Anyway, let me comment on what you are saying here. 

If salvation is unconditional then so is condemnation.

First, salvation is based on God's will and His salvation is by grace. Salvation is conditional in that sense. It may be said to be unconditional in another sense, such as on the sense that the person is saved, not based on anything that may come from him, such as his works, but is saved as a gift coming from God ~ by grace.           

Now, a person's condemnation certainly is not grace. One is not condemned by God if not for man's doing that which is evil and is sin. Man is condemned because of his sin. There is no scriptures which says or speaks of God condemning sinless people. Besides ,there is not one man, according to scriptures, who is not guilty of sin, except the Lord Jesus Christ.

And with either being unconditional, then you have no way whatever of knowing to which group you have been assigned.

There really is only one group. All of mankind is and will be guilty of sin (I will not  go to length to explain this here) and so are under condemnation. Now, God have chosen a people to be His people and His children, from mankind. But to be His children, God have to create them anew and make them be conformed in the image of His Son, Jesus Christ. The question therefore is, are we one of them? How do we know if we are? The answer to the question can be found in scriptures. In a general sense, one may know if he is among the children of God, if he comes to believe in the gospel written in scriptures and have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Further still, is if he is born again in the spirit, and continue in faith and live by faith and abide in Jesus Christ. And there are a lot more that scriptures says with which we can know.

With regards this, Peter have this to say and remind those who have obtained faith.

2 Peter 1:1-11
1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

   

Offline RB

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #172 on: Thu Nov 02, 2017 - 04:39:40 »
Jack Cottrell: The New Testament is similarly silent about a whole host of issues other than the musical instrument, and the churches of Christ argue among themselves as to whether they should be forbidden or not. Since the Bible is silent about Sunday school, some say it is prohibited; but others say it is OK[.
Kenneth this thread is not about musical instruments, so let go of it in this thread and deal with in an appropriate thread designated for that particular subject. I'm netural on this subject and would love to discuss this with you if you start a thread dealing JUST with THIS SUBJECT of musical instruments under the revelation of the New Covenant. I said under the "revelation of" the New Covenant because the New Covenant has ALWAYS been a working progress "moving forward" toward the death of its TESTATOR! Abel was under the New Covenant of the grace of God as much as every NT believer as far as entering into eternal life in the world to come.

So start a thread dealing ONLY with musical instruments and the child of God under the New Covenant.

Kenneth, I started one for you.....http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/musical-instruments-and-the-child-of-god-under-the-new-covenant/msg1055085058/?topicseen#msg1055085058
« Last Edit: Thu Nov 02, 2017 - 05:19:41 by RB »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #173 on: Fri Nov 03, 2017 - 14:46:03 »
Amos 5:26 But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images,
        the STAR of your god, which ye made to yourselves.

    Acts 7:41 And they made a calf in those days,
            and offered sacrifice unto the idol,
            and rejoiced in the works of their own hands



The practice in the wilderness, tyre and Jerusalem

Acts 7:42 Then God turned,
        and gave them up to worship the HOST of heaven;
        as it is written in the book of the prophets,
        O ye house of Israel,  have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices
        by the space of forty years in the wilderness?

Hey Ken,

Have you read any of the reports from the dig at Timna, where they unearthed the remains of a Shrine of Hathor, that was converted into a Tabernacle?

Quote from: Wikipedia
When the Egyptians left the area in the middle of the 12th century BCE, the Midianites continued using the temple. They erased the evidence of the Egyptian cult, effaced the images of Hathor and the Egyptian hieroglyphics, and built a row of stelae and a bench of offerings on both sides of the entrance. They turned the temple into a tented desert shrine and filled it with Midianite pottery and metal jewelry. There was also a bronze serpent found nearby the sanctuary.


http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-timna-valley-of-the-biblical-copper-mines-beno-rothenberg-1969ad.htm

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/ancient-cultures/ancient-israel/fabrics-found-at-ancient-mines-in-timna-valley/

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/ancient-cultures/daily-life-and-practice/skilled-craftsmen-not-slaves-smelted-copper-at-timna/

Interesting stuff!

Jarrod

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #174 on: Fri Nov 03, 2017 - 15:12:42 »
No, not recently. I have seen some material about the copper mines.  I looked it up at

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timna_Valley

Beno Rothenberg, the main excavator of the Timna Valley area, excavated a small Egyptian temple dedicated to Hathor, the Egyptian goddess of mining, at the base of Solomon's Pillars. It was built during the reign of Pharaoh Seti I at the end of the 14th century BCE, for the Egyptian miners. The shrine housed an open courtyard with a cella, an area cut into the rock to presumably house a statue of the deity.

As a defacto princesses, Miriam is said to be a priesstess or prophetess of Hathar represented by the female of APIS

http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/hathor.html

She was the patron of dancers and was associated with percussive music, particularly the sistrum (which was also a fertility fetish). She was also associated with the Menit necklace (which may also have been a percussion instrument) and was often known as "the Great Menit". Many of her priests were artisans, musicians, and dancers who added to the quality of life of the Egyptians and worshipped her by expressing their artistic natures

Miriam or bitter waters is one of those "authorities" for music.  I will read these papers. thanks

 

     
anything