Author Topic: Ephesians 2:8  (Read 52739 times)

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Online Jaime

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1645 on: Sun Sep 02, 2018 - 14:05:17 »
I agree Yogi. If one is taught for decades from a young age that baptism has nothing whatsoever to do with salvation, then pointing to scripture that indicates the opposite blows several circuits in the reasoning section of the brain. Same with others like myself foreign to the sinner’s prayer is naughtily  foreign and speaking of such seems blasphemous. Same with other concepts that we debate about. Listening to one who supports total depravity of man seems risque’ to my preconcieved notions and vice versa for the other side. I believe this is why no progress is ever made. We tend to latch on to notions like “this can’t be right or my grand parents and parents were full of baloney.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1646 on: Sun Sep 02, 2018 - 14:14:04 »
Those who are in Christ still will die physically, but that does not mean that before Adam's fall, that death already reigns over his physical body, and for that matter, on his posterity.

Physical death, however you may define and qualify it, is death. And concerning death, Paul said in:

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned

Through Adam, sin entered the world, where before that, sin was not. That death entered the world through sin, where before that, death was not.
Michael, You are not grasping the point that it is not repeat not talking about Physical but spiritual death that's all and as 4WD said they did die spiritually right there on the spot.

The physical came by naturally because they were cut off from the tree of life that is the only way the would have lived forever if they had eaten of that tree.

Yes spiritual death entered when Adam sinned not before and physical followed because of being blocked from the tree of life so naturally one will die as designed. Everything created on earth dies naturally and not because of Adam. The death talked about is spiritual death being cut off from God. That is what we are redeemed from renewed to.

You said "That death entered the world through sin, where before that, death was not." here I assume you are trying to say physical so I would have to say prove it. Where is your scripture that says physical death was not before Adam sinned? More to the point who was there to die before Adam?

So unless the animals and plant life was cursed to death with Adam nature was going to pass and so would have man with out the tree of life so Adam caused man to die because he was cut from the tree that would have given him eternal life but that is not what Paul was talking about Paul was talking about spiritual death not physical.

Offline SwordMaster

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1647 on: Sun Sep 02, 2018 - 21:57:16 »
I'm reading a small book written almost four hundred years ago and I thought about all who accuse us rejecting the originals Greek and trusting only in what God has given to us in our own language. The doctors and RCC and her daughters....the little sect they so much hated were the Anabaptists.

"Section 4: Wherein appears in the Doctor’s disputation, his Subtlety
and Pride.


After he had condemned the point in question for an error, the Doctor said, I could wish you had brought Scholars with you, who know how to dispute, which I perceive you cannot do. Answer, observe, how before he disputes, he vilifies the point in question, and those that maintain it.

But said the Doctor, there are but two ways of disputing; first, by authority; second by reason. First by authority, if you will dispute in Divinity, you must be able to produce the Scriptures in the original language. Answer, but why may you not as well say none can dispute in divinity unless they can produce the same copy of the Scriptures which the Apostles wrote, and seeing you cannot do that, you are not fit to dispute yourself; for, said he, in translations there may be, and are errors, for no translation is simply authentical, and the undoubted Word of God. We may say the same of your HEBREW and GREEK copies, seeing you cannot produce the first copy, how know you but your copies are written and printed false? Can no writer, if he pleaseth, write contrary to his copy? As for printing, I may say the same, printing is not above 250 years standing. Dr. Fulk in his “Confutation of the Rheims Testament,” justified the English translation of the Bible, and you have the same reason to doubt of the writing or printing of your copy as we of our translation; and if you may depend upon the writer or printer of your copies, why may not we do the same of our Translators, they doing it upon oath? But truth must not be taken by tradition; and if the knowledge of Hebrew, Greek, &c., be sufficient to teach them the mind of the Spirit of God, then all that know the tongues must of necessity know the mind of God in the Scriptures, and if so, Apollos being a learned man, who saw the first copy of the Bible should not need to learn of Aquila a tradesman, {one of the Laity,} and Pricilla his wife, the Word of God more perfectly as he did. Acts 18:26. And what is the reason you agree not among yourselves about the mind of the Spirit of God in His Word? So that some of you in your Expositions differ as much as light and darkness; and if it be not true, tell me, what is that preaching worth which is proved by a false translation? And, if we must believe contrary to our translation, because you know the original say so; {what is this but an implicit faith, &c., so human,} and seeing you so differ among yourselves about the meaning of the Spirit of God in them, tell me how I shall know, which of you I am to believe? Also some who know the original, affirm someone word will bear 7 or 10 diverse significations, how do you know which of them is intended by God, unless he reveal it to you? And if he please, he can reveal it to illiterate men, for God hath hid that from the wise, which he hath revealed unto babes. God said, the natural man cannot perceive the things that be of God, {though he be learned,} so surely no man can know the things of God, but he to whom the Spirit will reveal them unto. The Word, said he, revealed to us the deep things of God by his Spirit, I Cor.2:10, he does not say by Greek and Hebrew, &c. But it will be objected, cannot learned men understand the Scriptures as well as illiterate asses, as the Doctor calls tradesmen? I answer, yes, both alike, not at all of themselves. But, what, are there means and helps to the understanding the Scriptures without Greek and Hebrew? Yes, only the self-evidencing light of the Spirit of God, which first inspired the pen-men of Scriptures, who is in the hearts of the Saints, the only Interpreter of the Scriptures. Secondly, the knowledge of the body of Divinity, or the Analogy of the faith, to which the Scripture is to be referred for its right interpretation. Thirdly, the Law of God written in the hearts of the Lord’s elect, which favors the truth, and disrelishes errors. The fourth help to the understanding the Scriptures, is the manifold experience of varieties of temptations, and the experiences of the work of Grace in the soul. Lastly, to compare Scriptures that are dark with Scriptures of the same nature that are more plain, and so to let the Scriptures expound themselves.
I conclude this, all men are pure blind, yea dead, till God gives life, and opens men’s eyes, and although human learning is necessary for translating the Scriptures, &c., yet many idolize it, as the children of Israel did their golden Calf.

The issue of the conference, as he said, p.18, was, that they were not able to withstand the truth; it seems he was, he said, the Knights and Ladies thanked him, but he cannot say he did deserve it; and he said, the Anabaptists went away discontented and grieved. Answer, it seems they were very sorrowful, to see his great blindness and hardness of heart; and he said none of them ever after that troubled him anymore; it seems they could do him no good, and so they resolved to leave him to God, till he shall be pleased to open his eyes. “And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see, for I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.” Lk.10:23-24."

These are the very ones that I enjoy reading behind even MORE so than the reformers who I have a great deal of respect for, but do disagree on many of thier doctrines.

These men fought the same battles that we fight, NOTHING new under the sun.


In other words, you have nothing in the way of intelligent rebuttal agaisnt what you quoted from me, so you turn to a man's writings that have nothing to do with either what I said or to me.

Nice.

I see you haven't changed in my absence.

Blessings...



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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1647 on: Sun Sep 02, 2018 - 21:57:16 »

Offline NorrinRadd

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1648 on: Sun Sep 02, 2018 - 22:20:31 »
I do not know if there will be children in hell, but if there are...I hope God does not hold you to the thing you just said.

If it is indeed the case that the One True God, eternal, all-knowing, all-powerful, does indeed hold guilty and cast into the fiery pit some who "sin" in ignorance, without ever knowing right from wrong, that being is not and never has been my God.  I hope I have the courage and honor to never worship such a foul entity, and I look forward to the consequences and fate of counting myself among that being's enemies.

Selah and Amen.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1648 on: Sun Sep 02, 2018 - 22:20:31 »
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Offline SwordMaster

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1649 on: Sun Sep 02, 2018 - 22:43:07 »
Quote from: NorrinRadd Reply #1622 on: Yesterday at 22:48:22

   
Quote
Any so-called "god" that would hold guilty and punish a child or other person unable to understand "right" and "wrong" is worse than Molech.

Red replied with his usual calvinistic slant:

Quote
That's a dangerous statement to make, especially so knowing that infants died in the flood, and when Israel destroyed certain nations, they destroyed ALL including sucking children. What makes them more important than older people? We ALL we're guilty of Adam's disobedience. In Adam, ALL had their BEST CHANCE of NOT sinning~where I see the wisdom of God you and others see a god worse than Molech~Those words God WILL remember in THAT DAY. If I were you, I would at least re-word that foolish statement void of understanding.


Then NorrinRadd replied:

Quote
If God cast those children into the fire instead of welcoming them into His presence, He is indeed worse than the demon-god Molech.  He may have power, he may be "great," but he is in no way "good."  Let him dare to cast me into the pit with those children.  I do not and will not bow to any such demon-god.

First, Red's doctrine is not Scriptural. No child is born guilty of sin because of Adam's sin, that is false calvinistic doctrine. Scripture is repleat with the teaching that we send ourselves to hell because of our own personal sin...

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

There are more, but one should suffice. Adam is our 'father' according to the flesh, because we all started from him. We are not hell-bound because of his sin, only our own.

Having said that, I do not remember your character, NR, but your statement seems to say that you are not a christian...do you claim to be one?

To be clear, I am not accusing NR of not being a christian, I am asking him for clarification, because his statement seems to say otherwise.

To even accuse God of being a "demon-god" is quite offensive.




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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1649 on: Sun Sep 02, 2018 - 22:43:07 »



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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1650 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 03:39:30 »
Michael, You are not grasping the point that it is not repeat not talking about Physical but spiritual death that's all and as 4WD said they did die spiritually right there on the spot.

The physical came by naturally because they were cut off from the tree of life that is the only way the would have lived forever if they had eaten of that tree.

Yes spiritual death entered when Adam sinned not before and physical followed because of being blocked from the tree of life so naturally one will die as designed. Everything created on earth dies naturally and not because of Adam. The death talked about is spiritual death being cut off from God. That is what we are redeemed from renewed to.

You said "That death entered the world through sin, where before that, death was not." here I assume you are trying to say physical so I would have to say prove it. Where is your scripture that says physical death was not before Adam sinned? More to the point who was there to die before Adam?

So unless the animals and plant life was cursed to death with Adam nature was going to pass and so would have man with out the tree of life so Adam caused man to die because he was cut from the tree that would have given him eternal life but that is not what Paul was talking about Paul was talking about spiritual death not physical.

I would say there is plenty evidence in scripture that the consequence of sin is not only spiritual death, but also physical death.
It is Jesus' physical death that negates sin. Jesus never died spiritually. And it is clear that the price paid for sin was paid in blood.

If death was present before the fall in Eden, it impossibly can be payment for sin.
The only consequence of sin would then be spiritual death, and Jesus would have to die spiritually in order to make satisfaction.
The whole payment however rests on the fact that a spiritually perfect being (Jesus) did take upon Him the punishment for sin (i.e. physical death).

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1650 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 03:39:30 »

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1651 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 04:51:06 »
I would say there is plenty evidence in scripture that the consequence of sin is not only spiritual death, but also physical death.
It is BOTH~consider Jesus~he LAY DOWN his life, NO man took it from him, NOR did the law of God have any fault IN HIM. What would happen to Jesus if he had never freely given himself for our sins? Would he have eventually died?  IMPOSSIBLE, so that within itself PROVES that Adam's disobedience brought BOTH spiritual and natural death to all~EXCEPT to Christ who was conceived by God, not through Adam's generation.
Quote from: AVZ Reply #1650 on: Today at 03:39:30
The only consequence of sin would then be spiritual death, and Jesus would have to die spiritually in order to make satisfaction.
True
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 05:49:12 by RB »

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1652 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 06:30:17 »
Well let me see. We can rule out #1 for that is defiantly not the case
I assumed you mean definitely.....which is a very common mistake by many and I'm of the many.
Quote from: RB Reply #1639 on: Yesterday at 11:14:59
(1.) Because they are not wise (spiritual or natural) enough to figure this out on their own.
Well now, then are you saying that a natural man can understand and submit to the word of God? That's not scriptural. I will withhold proof for now just in case you want to clarify any point.
Quote from: Yogi bear Reply #1640 on: Yesterday at 12:11:48
#2 is possibly a good indication
Where I asked:
Quote from: RB Reply #1639 on: Yesterday at 11:14:59
(2.) Because of the blindness of their hearts.
Okay, good, then are you saying that God first must give them eyes to see~or how do you suggest that the blind can see apart from the power of God to those who are spiritual blinded?
Quote
We can rule out #3 for that is definitely not so
Which #3 asked
Quote from: RB Reply #1639 on: Yesterday at 11:14:59
(3.) Because God has not shown the truth to them.
So are you saying that God has shown the truth to ALL men equally~and/or God does not need to show man his truth man and man can figure this out on his own~which is it. If God has not shown his truth to all equally is this fair based on your theology~if yes, then please explain.
Quote from: yogi bear Reply #1640 on: Yesterday at 12:11:48
#4 is a really good assumption
Which asked...
Quote
4.) Because of men prejudice against the truth, in favors of their golden calf doctrines/bias'.
Well okay, then why do SOME believe and others do not but cling fast to their precious golden calf? Who makes the difference between the two? That one comes to believe while others mocked and fight the truth?
Quote from: yogi bear Reply #1640 on: Yesterday at 12:11:48
#5 is something to consider
  where we asked....
Quote from: RB Reply #1639 on: Yesterday at 11:14:59
(5.) Because of man's enmity against God's word.
Well, then you SHOULD consider it well, it just might lead you to the truth! If a man is at enmity against God, and he is then ONLY God's power can break that enmity against God and ONLY God's grace could be the MOVING CAUSE as to why those at enmity can become adopted into God's family.
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 06:34:17 by RB »

AVZ

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1653 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 07:13:59 »
Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

When David sinned with Bathsheba...who died?

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1653 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 07:13:59 »

AVZ

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1654 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 07:23:23 »
If it is indeed the case that the One True God, eternal, all-knowing, all-powerful, does indeed hold guilty and cast into the fiery pit some who "sin" in ignorance, without ever knowing right from wrong, that being is not and never has been my God.  I hope I have the courage and honor to never worship such a foul entity, and I look forward to the consequences and fate of counting myself among that being's enemies.

Selah and Amen.

I think you are walking a very tight and dangerous rope.
We all choose to believe that God will not condemn babies to hell, but reality is...we do not know.

Especially if you are an Armenian.
If you base your theology on God looking forward in time to see what a person will do or will not do, and bases certain actions on that information...who are you to say that God does not do that with babies as well?

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1655 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 07:56:42 »
When David sinned with Bathsheba...who died?
It wasn't Solomon.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1656 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 08:07:41 »
Quote from: AVZ Reply #1650
The only consequence of sin would then be spiritual death, and Jesus would have to die spiritually in order to make satisfaction.
True
Not true.  It was the physical death, the spilling of life's blood, whether in the Old Covenant sacrifice of animals or the New Covenant perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ, which made satisfaction.

I do not think we can fully understand or comprehend just how either was accepted by God as sacrifice and atonement.  We just know that to be true because God declared it so.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1657 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 08:15:06 »
I would say there is plenty evidence in scripture that the consequence of sin is not only spiritual death, but also physical death.
It is Jesus' physical death that negates sin. Jesus never died spiritually. And it is clear that the price paid for sin was paid in blood.

If death was present before the fall in Eden, it impossibly can be payment for sin.
The only consequence of sin would then be spiritual death, and Jesus would have to die spiritually in order to make satisfaction.
The whole payment however rests on the fact that a spiritually perfect being (Jesus) did take upon Him the punishment for sin (i.e. physical death).

So then your conclusion is that since Jesus did not die spiritually, we are not saved spiritually, only physically.  What nonsense.

Physical death is not the wages of sin.  And we are not saved from physical death.  All die a physical death, no matter whether they are spiritually alive or spiritually dead.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1658 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 10:11:30 »
So then your conclusion is that since Jesus did not die spiritually, we are not saved spiritually, only physically.  What nonsense.

Physical death is not the wages of sin.  And we are not saved from physical death.  All die a physical death, no matter whether they are spiritually alive or spiritually dead.

Can you show me where in scripture it states that Jesus saved you spiritually?

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1659 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 10:21:40 »
Can you show me where in scripture it states that Jesus saved you spiritually?
That is the only one that is meaningful.  He hasn't saved anyone physically from anything.  All manner of things, many that are most horrendous, happen to virtually everyone, regardless of belief, unbelief or disbelief in God, Jesus or the gospel.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1660 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 10:43:36 »
Quote from: Thaddaeus on Today at 10:11:30
Quote
Can you show me where in scripture it states that Jesus saved you spiritually?
Let me ask.
Does the physical body go to heave or the spirit? Salvation is eternal life so is that physical or spiritual?

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1661 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 11:18:38 »
4WD,

Quote
That is the only one that is meaningful.  He hasn't saved anyone physically from anything.  All manner of things, many that are most horrendous, happen to virtually everyone, regardless of belief, unbelief or disbelief in God, Jesus or the gospel.
So you believe Christ saved you spiritually, but you have no scriptural evidence of such a view or even an explanation.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1662 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 11:29:40 »
Quote from: Thaddaeus on Today at 10:11:30Let me ask.
Does the physical body go to heave or the spirit? Salvation is eternal life so is that physical or spiritual?
both will be in the New Heaven and New Earth.
However, how does the Soul get to heaven or how does Christ save your soul?

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1663 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 11:43:30 »
When David sinned with Bathsheba...who died?

You are not the only one who posted something like this recently. I believe RB said something similar. It's this erroneous belief that if babies die at God's hand or at His command, then it is because they were sinners. Or, it seems that their physical deaths should be equated with their spiritual fates.

If you carry this line of thinking to it's natural conclusion, then both of you should see the fallacy in it. Are all aborted babies being punished and killed for their sins? Why are not all babies killed on the spot, since all are sinners and deserving of death? Why let some grow up and then condemn them to death?

Lastly, if their physical deaths should in some way be equated with their being sinners and condemned, then shouldn't the physical deaths of all be viewed the same way? If not, then it has to be admitted that some people experience physical death and it is not due to their being condemned by God as sinners.

If that is true, then just apply that thought to all babies. Since babies are not guilty and condemned, and since their physical deaths are not a reflection of their spiritual state, then another reason has to be sought for why they are killed, even by God.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1664 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 11:57:52 »
Quote from: Thaddaeus on Today at 10:11:30Let me ask.
Does the physical body go to heave or the spirit? Salvation is eternal life so is that physical or spiritual?

If this was only about spiritual resurrection, Jesus did not need to undergo death and physical resurrection.
Yes we will be spiritually restored and with God in heaven, but there also is a physical resurrection and physical presence in heaven.

But back to the evidence of physical death being a consequence of sin...how did the Father load the sins of the world on His Son?
By the physical death on the cross.
Death was defeated by a spiritual perfect being suffering the consequences of sin by shedding His blood.

It makes absolutely no sense theologically to claim that mortality/physical death was part of creation before sin.
All through scripture it is made very clear that God demands the shedding of blood as atonement for sin.
Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. (Hebrews 9:22)

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)
There is a direct comparison between the spiritual AND physical death as a consequence of sin vs the spiritual AND physical resurrection.
Once again, if the wages of sin would only be spiritual death, then the resurrection of our physical bodies would not be necessary.

It therefore is bad logic to say that there was physical death in the Garden of Eden before there was sin.
It would mean that the wages of sin were applied to creation before sin was in the world.

AVZ

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1665 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 12:02:43 »
You are not the only one who posted something like this recently. I believe RB said something similar. It's this erroneous belief that if babies die at God's hand or at His command, then it is because they were sinners. Or, it seems that their physical deaths should be equated with their spiritual fates.

If you carry this line of thinking to it's natural conclusion, then both of you should see the fallacy in it. Are all aborted babies being punished and killed for their sins? Why are not all babies killed on the spot, since all are sinners and deserving of death? Why let some grow up and then condemn them to death?

Lastly, if their physical deaths should in some way be equated with their being sinners and condemned, then shouldn't the physical deaths of all be viewed the same way? If not, then it has to be admitted that some people experience physical death and it is not due to their being condemned by God as sinners.

If that is true, then just apply that thought to all babies. Since babies are not guilty and condemned, and since their physical deaths are not a reflection of their spiritual state, then another reason has to be sought for why they are killed, even by God.

I suggest you open your Bible and read the story.
The child of David and Bathsheba died as a direct consequence of David's sin.

2 Samuel 12:13-14
Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan answered, “The Lord has taken away your sin. You will not die. But what you did caused the Lord’s enemies to lose all respect for him. For this reason the son who was born to you will die.”

Remember the above is in response to the following claim:

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

I am just saying that something must be in need of further elaboration because scripture does give us examples where the son does suffer for the iniquity of the father.
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 12:06:45 by AVZ »

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1666 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 12:12:22 »
I suggest you open your Bible and read the story.
The child of David and Bathsheba died as a direct consequence of David's sin.

2 Samuel 12:13-14
Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan answered, “The Lord has taken away your sin. You will not die. But what you did caused the Lord’s enemies to lose all respect for him. For this reason the son who was born to you will die.”

Remember the above is in response to the following claim:

I am just saying that something must be in need of further elaboration because scripture does give us examples where the son does suffer for the iniquity of the father.

And I suggest you read that quote from Ezekiel 18 again.

This "suffering for the iniquity of another" is equated with being regarded as wicked. The baby was not being regarded as wicked in God's eyes. The death of the baby was not the baby being punished as a wicked person. The baby was not being punished at all.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1667 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 12:42:45 »
4WD,
So you believe Christ saved you spiritually, but you have no scriptural evidence of such a view or even an explanation.

The scriptural evidence is the whole of the NT on salvation.  The issue of being born again is being saved spiritually.  The forgiveness of sin is a spiritual salvation issue.  The indwelling Holy Spirit is a spiritual salvation issue.

Your theology that says that salvation is of the physical death is just plain nuts.  No one is saved from physical death.  Not even the resurrection does that, since what is raised is not the physical body but rather the spiritual body.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1668 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 12:52:43 »
It therefore is bad logic to say that there was physical death in the Garden of Eden before there was sin.
It would mean that the wages of sin were applied to creation before sin was in the world.
That is bad logic.  The point is that the wages of sin is not physical death.  Physical death, like ALL things physical, is the result of creation.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1669 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 13:04:05 »
I am just saying that something must be in need of further elaboration because scripture does give us examples where the son does suffer for the iniquity of the father.
We suffer physically in this physical existence all the time due to the sins of others.  The person killed by a drunk driver is killed because of the sin of the drunk.  That has nothing to do with the persons soul.  Millions were killed by the actions of men like Stalin, Hitler, Mao and others just in the 20th century and it can be traced back directly to their sinfulness. Again that has nothing to do with the souls of those who died.

We are not protected against any physical problems in this life through a belief in God, in Jesus as Lord and Savior, in the gospel.  In fact, if anything Jesus promised that we are likely suffer for that belief, being killed is but one such suffering.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1670 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 13:37:20 »
When David sinned with Bathsheba...who died?

You demonstrate that you do not know the spirit behind the Scriptures, AVZ.

The child dying was not the child suffering spiritual death for the sins of his father, it was a physical death in punishing David for his sin. You confuse the two kinds of death, and in doing so pervert your thinking on Scripture.


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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1671 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 13:40:05 »
And I suggest you read that quote from Ezekiel 18 again.

This "suffering for the iniquity of another" is equated with being regarded as wicked. The baby was not being regarded as wicked in God's eyes. The death of the baby was not the baby being punished as a wicked person. The baby was not being punished at all.


 ::thumbup:: ::thumbup:: ::thumbup::

Some people say things without thinking about what they are saying....


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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1672 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 14:38:00 »
4WD,

Quote
The scriptural evidence is the whole of the NT on salvation.  The issue of being born again is being saved spiritually.  The forgiveness of sin is a spiritual salvation issue.  The indwelling Holy Spirit is a spiritual salvation issue.
but none of these steps are done unilaterally by Christ without your imput.  Neither Christ can save you spiritually, nor can man, but it takes the mutual working between God and man. 

This was made possible because Christ took on Himself our Human Nature, died and was risen thus giving that Human Nature life, physical life.  We are created entities, both body and soul.  The created order was taken by over by death as a consequence of Adam's sin.  If not for Christ we all would return to dust permanently.

So, Christ did NOT save you spiritually but made it possible for man to have a relationship with Christ on this earth and if we are faithful will inherit eternal life.


Both are explained very clearly in I Cor 15:22 with the clear statement that faith is worthless for salvation without the resurrection of Christ with our human nature,

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1673 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 15:49:32 »
4WD,
 but none of these steps are done unilaterally by Christ without your imput. 
Never said it did.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1674 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 18:39:52 »
You demonstrate that you do not know the spirit behind the Scriptures, AVZ.

The child dying was not the child suffering spiritual death for the sins of his father, it was a physical death in punishing David for his sin. You confuse the two kinds of death, and in doing so pervert your thinking on Scripture.

So do you agree it is OK for God to make your child suffer physically if it is you who commits the sin?
How is physical suffering not suffering?
And do I hear you saying that physical suffering and death is indeed the result of sin? Even if the sin is committed by the father?

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1675 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 18:43:04 »
And I suggest you read that quote from Ezekiel 18 again.

This "suffering for the iniquity of another" is equated with being regarded as wicked. The baby was not being regarded as wicked in God's eyes. The death of the baby was not the baby being punished as a wicked person. The baby was not being punished at all.

Yes, I consider what David did a wicked thing. Or do you disagree?
And together with David the baby suffered for it.

Is there any other way you can explain 2 Samuel 12? I am listening.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1676 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 19:57:33 »
So do you agree it is OK for God to make your child suffer physically if it is you who commits the sin?

You are going off the deep end. The whole crux of the conversation was that if a child dies he goes straight to hell because of Adam's sin. You calvinists just cant stay on topic.

And no, but that doesn't matter, because God would not do that today. And you forget the nature of sin...it affects everyone, you first off spiritually and sometimes physically, and then all those around you.

Quote
How is physical suffering not suffering?

Again, the crux of the conversation is not suffering, it is going to hell because of Adam's sin....stay on topic.

Quote
Quote
And do I hear you saying that physical suffering and death is indeed the result of sin? Even if the sin is committed by the father?

No, that is not what I said...although, if you are hearing me say something that I am not saying, you may want to find someone to examine you to see if you are hearing things....



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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1677 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 22:58:07 »
You are going off the deep end. The whole crux of the conversation was that if a child dies he goes straight to hell because of Adam's sin. You calvinists just cant stay on topic.

And no, but that doesn't matter, because God would not do that today. And you forget the nature of sin...it affects everyone, you first off spiritually and sometimes physically, and then all those around you.

Again, the crux of the conversation is not suffering, it is going to hell because of Adam's sin....stay on topic.


No, that is not what I said...although, if you are hearing me say something that I am not saying, you may want to find someone to examine you to see if you are hearing things....

I don't see anyone saying in this discussion that a child goes straight to hell because of Adam's sin.
But maybe you can help me by pointing me to the post where such a claim is being made?

It most definitely is not a Calvinist claim, so I wonder where you get that from.
But maybe that too you can sustain with evidence that this is indeed what Calvinism teaches?

This is what Calvinists claim on this matter:
- Nobody is justified by himself, and every person young or old must be justified by the blood of Christ before he or she can enter heaven.
- Children equally need justification before God, and Christ's work on the cross needs to be imputed to them as much as it needs to be imputed to any adult.
- When a child dies by its human nature it deserves to go to hell, however we believe that a merciful God, through the sacrifice of Christ, will grant them access to heaven and eternal life.
- The Bible does not make any reference to whether there will or will not be children in hell, therefore we believe there will not be.

So in short, we believe that children, same as believing adults, get what they do not deserve.
Both you and a child deserve to go to hell, yet by God's mercy and grace will you receive something you do not deserve.


So now that I have explained myself, back to the son suffering because of the sin of the father.
The story in 2 Samuel 12 is exactly an example where a child suffered because of the fathers sin.
It is in fact literally said in verse 14:

"But what you did caused the Lord’s enemies to lose all respect for Him. For this reason the son who was born to you will die.

And the child was sick for seven days and died.

So tell me, how is this not an example of a child suffering for a sin committed by the father?

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1678 on: Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 23:47:52 »
AVZ said...

Quote
I don't see anyone saying in this discussion that a child goes straight to hell because of Adam's sin. But maybe you can help me by pointing me to the post where such a claim is being made?

RB's post (#1625), he directly impies it because that is what calvin taught.

Quote
It most definitely is not a Calvinist claim, so I wonder where you get that from. But maybe that too you can sustain with evidence that this is indeed what Calvinism teaches?

It is a calvinist claim, straight from calvin himself. Re-read his "institutes of the Christian Religion," where calvin outlines his heresies in great detail. Just because your particular 'branch' of calvinism doesn't hold to all of his original writings, does not make it not calvinism.

Quote
- When a child dies by its human nature it deserves to go to hell, however we believe that a merciful God, through the sacrifice of Christ, will grant them access to heaven and eternal life.

That is an interesting twist...the sacrifice of Christ (the atonement in Christ) is not applied to anyone who is not abiding in Him. So you show yourself to be confused. If the infant deserves hell because of its sin nature (which Scripture does not teach), if the infant dies then it would go straight to hell because in order to be in Christ, you have to make a determined willful decision to enter into Him and remain abiding in Him. An infant can do neither.

You are greatly confused.
Quote
So now that I have explained myself, back to the son suffering because of the sin of the father...

Yes, but your explanation is weak and based in false ideologies and misconceptions of what Scripture teaches, so it really did you no good at all.

As for the son suffering because of the sin of the father, again, that is not what the conversation is about. The conversation is about the son going to hell because of the sins of the father...just as the text that I gave states.

The biggest problem that you have here, AVZ, is that you are arguing straightforward against what God Himself has stated.


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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1679 on: Tue Sep 04, 2018 - 03:38:52 »
AVZ said...

RB's post (#1625), he directly impies it because that is what calvin taught.

It is a calvinist claim, straight from calvin himself. Re-read his "institutes of the Christian Religion," where calvin outlines his heresies in great detail. Just because your particular 'branch' of calvinism doesn't hold to all of his original writings, does not make it not calvinism.

I just read post #1625 and I dont see RB claiming anywhere that children will go to hell.
With regards to what Calvin teaches...you are misinformed because Calvin never made such a claim.


That is an interesting twist...the sacrifice of Christ (the atonement in Christ) is not applied to anyone who is not abiding in Him. So you show yourself to be confused. If the infant deserves hell because of its sin nature (which Scripture does not teach), if the infant dies then it would go straight to hell because in order to be in Christ, you have to make a determined willful decision to enter into Him and remain abiding in Him. An infant can do neither.

Lets say in the last 7 days, how many times have you sinned and not remained?
You, similar to the child, do not deserve heaven. Not even with your continuously failing "abiding". And yet heaven is where you will go.
So tell me what great thing did you do that makes you deserve heaven?

 

     
anything