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Christian Interests => Theology Forum => Topic started by: yogi bear on Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 11:21:10

Title: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: yogi bear on Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 11:21:10
Quote
Ephesians 2:8 (KJV)
8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:8 (ASV)
8  for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Ephesians 2:8 (BBE)
8  Because by grace you have salvation through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is given by God:

Ephesians 2:8 (HCSB)
8  For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—
]

We discuss this verse often and many a different view comes from this verse. I would like to take a little time to try to get to what is meant by this verse.

What is meant by you are saved by grace?

Is grace an action that is done like coming to faith?

Is grace like repenting?

Is grace like a v waving of a magic won?

Grace is Gods plan to redeem man is it not?

Does it have conditions such as faith or repentance or confess Christ or even baptism in Christ name?

Could it be that God put in place a plan to save man even while we were yet dead in our sins and it involves all above  but the plan is grace because nothing we can do will ever make us fit fr righteousness with out Gods plan to redeem?

We need to understand just what saved by grace is according to the biblical meaning and not of our personal view.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Alan on Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 11:37:59
Grace is simply forgiveness by God for man's shortcomings, we are unable to be perfect specimens therefore grace is given to bridge that gap. Grace by no means is a God given measure of "do-nothingness" for the anti-works ministries of today, as Christians, we are called to go above and beyond that of mere men. 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: yogi bear on Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 12:02:27
It is achieved through faith so what does that mean? Faith in the faith? Faith in the gospel? How does faith come into play just what is meant?
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Texas Conservative on Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 12:04:00
This is a foundational doctrine.

If this is not understand, how can you go on to any other topic?
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: yogi bear on Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 12:31:52
This is a foundational doctrine.

If this is not understand, how can you go on to any other topic?
Then give me your understanding not just some empty comment. I get nothing of what you understand by what you offered up.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Jaime on Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 12:36:08
Apparently there is MUCH misunderstanding on this and other foundational truths. Probably best not to assume people agree on anything.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: yogi bear on Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 13:27:44
Yes we all agree that we are saved by grace through faith no doubt but just what does that mean? The answer to that is what we need to bring into unity for there are as many different answers to that as there are posters on this forum.

So in your opinion just what does that statement mean? How would go go about explaining that to an unbeliever? Does it have more than one meaning? Can we just believe what ever we want or does it have substance with it and a true meaning that all should be in unity on?
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 15:56:16
We need to understand just what saved by grace is according to the biblical meaning and not of our personal view.
Greetings Yogi, I would be happy to discuss this verse with you, if you would with me. Every time I come to one of your thread, you sooner or later (generally, sooner) leave. I will give you the true biblical sense in which we MUSt understand Ephesians  2:8,9 in order for those precious scriptures to flow with ALL of the word of God producing a perfect harmony on one precious and glorious truth, that Salvation IS of the Lord. Would you like to continue this discussion, or are you going to avoid me as you do often? I'm here to be your friend, not your enemy, and I trust you feel the same toward me. RB
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 16:05:33
How would go about explaining that to an unbeliever?
Yogi, God's children are NOT called to explain any truth to unbelievers in the sense in which you understand unbelievers. We are called to teach God's sheep and feed them, for gospel truth to them that are lost is foolishness. Would care for me to prove this, I certainly can.  Would you disagree that God's elect are unbelievers in one sense,  UNTIL they see a particular truth they are considering, and when they see it.......THEN they believe. Need proof?
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: yogi bear on Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 18:57:31
Red please feel free to express yourself on this thread. I left it open for all to express what they understand and would be glad to hear your understanding. That does not mean that I am going to fight with you over this as you and sword master like to do but am willing to hear your view and discuss with you as long as the temperament stays cool.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Jason_NC on Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 19:23:29
Grace is a choice by God to credit the righteousness of Jesus to us and place our sins on Jesus.

It is bestowed (from eternity past) when we come to faith in Jesus Christ.  Both the faith and the grace are from God.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Jaime on Tue Oct 17, 2017 - 21:50:59
Faith comes from God in the sense that faith comes from hearing or reading the Word of God. Romans 10:17.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Wed Oct 18, 2017 - 04:08:01
Grace is a choice by God to credit the righteousness of Jesus to us and place our sins on Jesus.
A short, but very true defintion.
Quote from: Jason_NC
It is bestowed (from eternity past) when we come to faith in Jesus Christ.
Well, some may ask you...which one Jason do you believe~from eternity past, or, when we believe?

The truth is this: Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God (during our lifetime) .....YET, the gift to have this faith comes by GRACE ALONE on the behalf of Jesus Christ, (from eternity past) based on his obedience and righteousness. Faith is the result of the new birth, NOT the cause thereof.

John 3:1-8 was given by the Holy Spirit for one sole purpose and that was "to reveal this important truth, that regeneration proceeds faith, and any other work of righteousness that may come from a man". That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and all through the scriptures flesh is described as impossible to please God apart from the Spirit of God indwelling a man.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 8:5-9~"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
Many great and important truths taught in these few scriptures! A man would do himself service by pondering each phrase carefully.

So, my question to you Yogi is this: "can man in flesh please God apart from being FIRST born of God, or born again"? Think about this question while I give my understanding of Ephesians 2:8,9.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Wed Oct 18, 2017 - 07:42:53
A short, but very true defintion. Well, some may ask you...which one Jason do you believe~from eternity past, or, when we believe?
That may well describe some aspect of grace, but that is not a definition.  To present that as a definition exhibits the same fallacy as Michael2012 in his discussion about faith. It is a description of one aspect of grace but it does not really define or explain what grace is. Grace is really so much more that just that.
The truth is this: Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God (during our lifetime) .....YET, the gift to have this faith comes by GRACE ALONE on the behalf of Jesus Christ, (from eternity past) based on his obedience and righteousness. Faith is the result of the new birth, NOT the cause thereof.
Absolutely not.  We are saved BY grace THROUGH faith.  Being saved is the new birth. The new creature does not need to be saved; the new creature has been saved.
Quote
"But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise." (Gal 3:25-29)
And if you are heirs you are saved. To be born again is to be saved. How saved? BY grace THROUGH faith.
Quote
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come (2Cor 5:17).
John 3:1-8 was given by the Holy Spirit for one sole purpose and that was "to reveal this important truth, that regeneration proceeds faith, and any other work of righteousness that may come from a man". That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and all through the scriptures flesh is described as impossible to please God apart from the Spirit of God indwelling a man. Many great and important truth taught in these few scriptures! A man would do himself service by pondering each phrase carefully.
Wrong again.  The flesh does not cease to exist with regeneration.  The flesh is always there; at least until death that is.  Born of water and the Spirit is the new birth; it is regeneration.  It is salvation.  It is the result of having the sins forgiven and having received the gift of the Holy Spirit.  But the flesh is still there.  It is not flesh that is described as impossible to please God, rather it is being controlled by the flesh that keeps one from pleasing God (read Romans 7).  In regeneration, the flesh is not changed; the new creature has the same flesh; rather it is the spirit that is reborn.  It is the spirit, not the flesh, not the body, that was dead in trespasses and sins
So, my question to you Yogi is this: "can man in flesh please God apart from being FIRST born of God, or born again"?
Yes, even the new creature, the regenerated man, is still in the flesh; the flesh is not gone; but he is not controlled by the flesh but by the Spirit.
Quote
"... for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God (Rom 8:13-14).
  Being born of God is to be saved.  Again, saved how? BY grace THROUGH faith.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Wed Oct 18, 2017 - 10:22:09
That may well describe some aspect of grace, but that is not a definition.  To present that as a definition exhibits the same fallacy as Michael2012 in his discussion about faith. It is a description of one aspect of grace but it does not really define or explain what grace is. Grace is really so much more that just that.
4WD, that was not my definition of grace, and maybe not Jason's, but a short version of his.

I know very well sir, what God's grace is according to God's definition, one that you do not, based on many posts that I have read of yours. Here is my understanding of the true grace of God.

DEFINITION OF GRACE~Grace~Favour, favourable or benignant regard or its manifestation; favour or goodwill, in
contradistinction to right or obligation, as the ground of a concession.

Near-synonyms in the Bible include favour, mercy, compassion, kindness, and goodness (1st Corinthians 2:13).
 
Notice the synonymous use of favour and grace in Abraham’s speech to God (Genesis 18:3; 19:19). God is gracious to whom He chooses to be gracious; compare the words (Exodus 33:19; Romans 9:15-16). Which you so vehemently reject.

Grace is more than mercy, if both are properly defined, because mercy only withholds judgment. Grace not only withholds judgment but also bring honor and reward as additional positive gifts.

The Person of Jesus Christ was full of grace and truth, thus true grace is ONLY to be received given based on Him (John 1:14-18).

Jesus was full of grace in His life, in His ministry, and as the substitutionary propitiation of God for his people. The scriptures are plain that God’s grace in Jesus is only for the elect (John 6:37-39; 10:26-29; 17:2-3; Romans 8:28-33; 2nd Timothy1:9).

When considering grace as favour, we must define it as merited, unmerited, or demerited favour. Sin has put us way outside God’s favor and under His righteous and terrible wrath upon sinners.

Merited favour would be a reward for good works, so the Catholics and blinded conditionalists teach, just as you do. Unmerited favour would be a gift to a neutral party, so we see the preservation of elect angels.

Demerited favour would be a gift to those deserving judgment, so the blessed truth of the gospel. So,  True grace is demerited favour without obligation, worth, or conditions. Works are totally excluded.

By God’s definition, grace and works are mutually exclusive by their definition (Romans 11:5-6).  If a man works for righteousness before God, even by faith, it is debt and not grace (Rom 4:4-5).

Grace used as an acronym may properly define Biblical grace … God Rewards And Clears Enemies. Grace = God does not judge and punish the elect as they do deserve, but He does honor and reward them with blessings they do not deserve. This enhanced God's definition of grace over any that man can give!

Sir, do you have a better definition of grace, if so let me hear it.

I'll address your other points later.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Oct 18, 2017 - 12:20:10
]

We discuss this verse often and many a different view comes from this verse. I would like to take a little time to try to get to what is meant by this verse.

What is meant by you are saved by grace?

Is grace an action that is done like coming to faith?

Is grace like repenting?

Is grace like a v waving of a magic won?

Grace is Gods plan to redeem man is it not?

Does it have conditions such as faith or repentance or confess Christ or even baptism in Christ name?

Could it be that God put in place a plan to save man even while we were yet dead in our sins and it involves all above  but the plan is grace because nothing we can do will ever make us fit fr righteousness with out Gods plan to redeem?

We need to understand just what saved by grace is according to the biblical meaning and not of our personal view.
Good topic, yogi.

If I may, I'd like to muddy the waters a little further, rather than giving my interpretation.

The first thing to point out is that this verse is atypical, or extraordinary, in its wording.  What I mean is that the way that "saved" is used/translated in this verse is unusual compared to all the other verses in the Bible.

Also, there is some ambiguity in the wording, in our translation.  This not of yourselves.  What is this?  Grace, Faith, Salvation, or something else?  The answer has major implications for our theology.

Jarrod
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Alan on Wed Oct 18, 2017 - 12:42:32
Good topic, yogi.


Also, there is some ambiguity in the wording, in our translation.  This not of yourselves.  What is this?  Grace, Faith, Salvation, or something else?  The answer has major implications for our theology.

Jarrod


My thoughts have always leaned toward salvation.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Jaime on Wed Oct 18, 2017 - 13:22:39

My thoughts have always leaned toward salvation.

I agree, if sentence structure has any bearing, and it DOES.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Wed Oct 18, 2017 - 13:44:16
Sir, do you have a better definition of grace, if so let me hear it.
The problem we face here like the problem that Michael2012 ran into with the word faith is that it is not so much a matter of defining the word that we are concerned about; rather it is more a concept than a word definition that we need to consider.  And I believe that is actually what you have tried to do, albeit with some biased Reformed thinking entanglement included.  For example you interjected the notion of "works" or rather the notion of the lack of works into your discussion.  You noted that grace and works were mutually exclusive. But that is only the case when one considers grace to be "saving grace"; and even there once the term works includes any other than works of law that is not true.  When God grants the believer the answer to his prayer, is it not by God's grace that it is granted?  So when we read that we are saved by grace, that essentially limits the meaning [or the definition] of both the words "saved" and "grace" to the context in which both are used.

So then, as applied to salvation the term “grace” has three basic connotations. It refers to the source of salvation, i.e., to grace as the attribute of God’s nature that desires our salvation and impels him to accomplish it through the incarnate Christ. It also refers to the content of our salvation, i.e., to the actual gift we receive from God when he saves us. In this sense grace is the double cure of salvation, justification on the one hand and regeneration-sanctification on the other. Finally it refers to the way in which God saves us, i.e., the method or system God uses to bestow salvation upon us. And we must be certain which of the three basic connotations is in play when we read about grace in the Bible.


All of which takes us away from the topic at hand but is related.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Wed Oct 18, 2017 - 15:29:26
GRACE of the Greeks or  3 Graces or Muses were not nice girls but they performed at the pagan temples promising salvation.  Some of the MUSES (Revelation 18) were Apollon's musical worship team at Delphi just up the road from Corinth.

Scripture is frequently in forms of Parallelism.  Jesus was the Visible-Audible bringer of Grace which is God's power to refrain from things people think they can do with abandoned.

Jesus said that truth had been hidden in parables or figures of speech from the foundation of the world to fool those who make merchandise of God Isaiah 48.

Grace like Word or Light is personified

(http://www.piney.com/Titus.2.Acts.2.gif)

A tomato is a GIFT OF GOD since I cannot CREATE ONE.  Everything is free of charge including HIS WORD.

Eccl. 3:13 And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God.
Eccl. 5:19 Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth, and hath given him power to eat thereof, and to take his portion, and to rejoice in his labour; this is the gift of God.

God will let you starve if you refuse to plant, water and let God do HIS work
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Wed Oct 18, 2017 - 17:01:00
The Graces

(http://www.piney.com/3.Graces.Ugliness.gif)
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Wed Oct 18, 2017 - 19:17:13
The Graces

([url]http://www.piney.com/3.Graces.Ugliness.gif[/url])
I have no idea whatsoever what that means or even what you were trying to convey.  And to be honest, I don't think I care.  I will come back later with some comments on the post before this last one.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Wed Oct 18, 2017 - 19:56:19
I made it pretty clear that GRACE or GRACES in the pagan world were worshipped.  The definition of GRACE has some pretty mean meanings.

Paul OFTEN used well-known pagan practices to CONTRAST with the true Lord-God.

While people are spending time giving their attention (worship) to hired performers, People are starved to death for lack of the FREE water of the word and are TAKEN CAPTIVE (Amos 8; Isaiah 5 tell the story of God washing His hands of people.

Paul was well educated in the classics and mythological writings of the Jews he calls JEWISH FABLES.  You might want to take a look at some of the classics which pulled the DARK AGES out of religious oppression.

The Graces (Charities)
The three beautiful nymphs and minor goddesses were called Aglaia, Thalia, and Euphrosyne were generally considered as the Graces. However, other Graces were also mentioned in some sources of Greek mythology including Peitho (persuasion), Pasithea (shining) and Cleta (sound).

The three goddesses generally accepted as the Graces represented grace, charm and beauty also had other qualities that they were associated with:

    Aglaia represented elegance, brightness and splendor
    Thalia represented youth, beauty and good cheer
    Euphrosyne represented mirth and or joyfulness

The main role of the Three Graces was to bestow beauty, charm, and goodness on young women and to give joy and the feeling of well being to people in general. Closely associated with the Nine Muses they were also considered patrons of music, poetry and dance.

The Muses show up in Revelation 18 along with the instrument players John defined as sorcerers.  The Muses or musicians are well-documented as LOCUSTS and Apollo or Apollon was the Leader of his musical team used to induce KOMA and to pass the plate.

Invocations to the Muses (Charities)
The Graces brought joy and goodwill to both gods and mortals. Like the Nine Muses, they were believed to endow artists and poets with the ability to create beautiful works of art. According to the traditions and beliefs of the Ancient Greeks, people would invoke the aid of the Graces to guide and assist them in their art, musical compositions, work, songs and dance. The invocation took the form of a prayer for divine inspiration from the goddesses.

This is the role claimed for "worship teams" as well prophesied in Revelation 18

Apollon is the only personified SPIRIT: Mousagetēs 1 doric for Mousēgetēs leader of the Muses, Lat. Musagetes, of Apollo, Plat1 Mous-a_getēs,

The Three Graces (Charities) and the Charitesia
The Charitesia were annual competitions and games in honor of the Graces. There were athletic competitions, literary, musical and dramatic contests (which took place in the theater). The Charitesia festival was held at Orchomenos near the modern town of Kalpaki. The derivation of the word Charitesia meant 'to win someone's favor'. During the Charitesia nightly dances took place.
The Attributes of the Three Graces (Charities)
The ancient Greek gods and goddesses were associated with special symbols and attributes that were depicted in the pictures, mosaics, statues and images of the deities making them instantly recognisable. The attributes of the Three Graces included

THE KHARITES (Charites) or Graces, were the three goddesses of grace, beauty, adornment, mirth, festivity, dance and song. A number of "younger Kharites" presided over the other pleasures of life, including play, amusement, banqueting, floral decoration, happiness, rest and relaxation.

The Kharites were attendants of the goddesses Aphrodite and Hera. One named Kharis, was the wife of Hephaistos. Another, Pasithea, was married to Hypnos (Sleep).
The three Kharites were usually depicted in classical sculpture and mosaic as three naked women, holding hands and dancing in a circle. They were sometimes crowned with myrtle and held sprigs of myrtle in their hands.

In Greek vase painting a bevy of younger Kharis personifications form the retinue of Aphrodite.

Definition of the Three Graces (Charities)
Who were the Three Graces of Ancient Greek mythology? The meaning and definition of Three Graces are as follows: Definition of Three Graces: The Three Graces were minor goddesses and nymphs [brides in Revelation 18] and according to Greek Mythology were the daughters of Zeus, the king of the gods and the Oceanid called Eurynome a nymph of the water-ways and clouds, who was represented by a statue of what we would call a mermaid. Other sources say that Helios and the naiad Aegle were the parents of the Charities. The Three Graces were reputed to be the essence of beauty, charm, and grace and were closely associated with the Nine Muses who presided and inspired song, dance, music, poetry and the sciences. They were regarded as the inspirers of the qualities which give attractiveness to wisdom, love, culture and social interaction. The names of the Three Graces were Aglaia, Thalia, and Euphrosyne.

AS NOTED PAUL USED A WORD WHICH WAS ANTITHETICAL TO JEHOVAH-ELOHIM WHOSE WORD OR LOGOS HAS THE ONLY DRIVING PURPOSE AS TO "TEACH OR EDUCATE" THE LITTLE FLOCK: THE WAY THAT IS CALLED A SECT OF LOST SPIRITS IN THE WORLD BUT NOT OF THE WORLD. 

Rom. 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. [Spiritual or Rational OF THE WORD]
Rom. 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, WILL OF GOD /b]
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 03:30:07
I have no idea whatsoever what that means or even what you were trying to convey.  And to be honest, I don't think I care.  I will come back later with some comments on the post before this last one.
It's time for Mr. Ken to retire, he is hurting your side. Ken means well, I'm sure, but he a loose wire, that cannot be repaired~at least this "seems" to be the case.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 04:27:24
Quote from: Paul
Ephesians chapter one~Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all."

Quote from: Paul
Ephesians chapter two~"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."
Let us come back and see just how important context IS in order for us to understand fully what the writer is saying to us. The word "for" is not use once in chapter one and not until Paul begins to explain more in detail what he had said in chapter one where he said:
Quote from: Paul
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace
Our interpretation of Ephesians 2:8 must continue to give praise of the glory of the riches of his grace toward us. So, what is the sense that we must understand the word faith which we understand Paul to say that FAITH is NOT of ourselves it is the gift of God?

I'm convinced that the surrounding verses before and after Ephesians 2:8,9 will reveal to us the true interpretation of Ephesians 2:8,9.  So, then, context is again lord and master that will drive our interpretation for us to a correct biblical understanding of Paul's words.

Later....
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 07:17:02
Some mistakenly conclude that Ephesians 2:8 says faith is a gift: “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.” This is disproved, though, by the rules of Greek grammar. The Greek word for “faith” (pistis) is feminine in gender; the pronoun referring to the gift (“that,” touto) is neuter. If it were referring back to faith, it too would be feminine in form. (We should note there is no word in the Greek corresponding to the pronoun “it.” That is why the two words "it is" in most translations are italicized)

This verse actually shows that faith is not a gift since grace and faith are carefully distinguished. We are saved by grace, as God’s part; but through faith, as our part, as distinct from the grace given. Faith is not a gift of grace and the result of regeneration; it is a response to grace and a prerequisite to regeneration. That faith precedes regeneration and is a prerequisite for it is specifically affirmed in Colossians 2:12: having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.  And v. 13: “He made you alive together with Him”,

Here faith is the means by which the regeneration is received: we are “raised . . . through faith.”  The spiritually dead unbeliever makes his decision to believe of his own free choice, moved by the power of the gospel (Romans 1:16), before being “raised up” in regeneration. See also Ephesians 1:13-14,

Eph 1:13  In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14  who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Here “hearing” and “believing” are actually aorist participles, meaning these acts precede the action of the main verb, the sealing with the Spirit (see also Acts 5:32; 15:7-9; 16:30; 1 Peter 1:22).  Here, of course, the sealing with the Spirit is regeneration, the giving of the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: jojo50 on Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 09:06:52

"by grace",  basically means that Jehovah God ,(Exo. 6:3), gave us a gift, by send ins Son to die for our sins. we are imperfect, and shouldn't fool ourselves into believing we deserve that loving gift of kindness. so again, by that undeserved kindness, Jehovah God gave us a way to be saved. through faith...and! works.

see ,(James 2:14-26 My Christian brothers, what good does it do if you say you have faith but do not do things that prove you have faith? Can that kind of faith save you from the punishment of sin? What if a Christian does not have clothes or food? And one of you says to him, “Goodbye, keep yourself warm and eat well.” But if you do not give him what he needs, how does that help him? A faith that does not do things is a dead faith. Someone may say, “You have faith, and I do things. Prove to me you have faith when you are doing nothing. I will prove to you I have faith by doing things.” You believe there is one God. That is good! But even the demons believe that, and because they do, they shake. You foolish man! Do I have to prove to you that faith without doing things is of no use? Was not our early father Abraham right with God by what he did? He obeyed God and put his son Isaac on the altar to die. You see his faith working by what he did and his faith was made perfect by what he did. It happened as the Holy Writings said it would happen. They say, “Abraham put his trust in God and he became right with God.” He was called the friend of God. A man becomes right with God by what he does and not by faith only. The same was true with Rahab, the woman who sold the use of her body. She became right with God by what she did in helping the men who had been sent to look through the country and sent them away by another road. The body is dead when there is no spirit in it. It is the same with faith. Faith is dead when nothing is done).

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 18:25:34
Let's see if I can do this justice in a short post.

Quickened

The most important word in Ephesians 2:8, isn't actually in the verse.  It's in verse 5, so scroll up.  What did God do?  He quickened the Ephesians.  That means he brought them back to life when they were dead.  That's the event under consideration.

By Grace,...This Not of Yourselves

This describes the reason that God brought them back to life.  It does not describe how He did it.  The point is, that they were resurrected, not because of any merit they had for themselves, but simply because God is good and gives gifts, even undeserved gifts.

You Are Saved

Saved isn't part of the verb here, though it appears that way in English.  In Greek, that word refers to the ongoing state of being resulting from God's actions - in this case, that they are ALIVE.  This word in every other chapter/verse in the Bible is translated as healed, rather than saved, and IMO it would have been the best translation here as well, since a resurrection is what is in view.

Through Faith

This describes how the Ephesians' resuscitation was accomplished.

It is the gift of God

It is not faith.  It also isn't grace.  It is LIFE - God gave them LIFE.

Jarrod
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Jaime on Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 19:16:29
Life = salvation
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: yogi bear on Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 21:09:55
Let's see if I can do this justice in a short post.

Quickened

The most important word in Ephesians 2:8, isn't actually in the verse.  It's in verse 5, so scroll up.  What did God do?  He quickened the Ephesians.  That means he brought them back to life when they were dead.  That's the event under consideration.

By Grace,...This Not of Yourselves

This describes the reason that God brought them back to life.  It does not describe how He did it.  The point is, that they were resurrected, not because of any merit they had for themselves, but simply because God is good and gives gifts, even undeserved gifts.

You Are Saved

Saved isn't part of the verb here, though it appears that way in English.  In Greek, that word refers to the ongoing state of being resulting from God's actions - in this case, that they are ALIVE.  This word in every other chapter/verse in the Bible is translated as healed, rather than saved, and IMO it would have been the best translation here as well, since a resurrection is what is in view.

Through Faith

This describes how the Ephesians' resuscitation was accomplished.

It is the gift of God

It is not faith.  It also isn't grace.  It is LIFE - God gave them LIFE.

Jarrod
Yes that sounds like good reasoning I kinda like this thought it kinda sums it all up it is a new life that is given and some might call it salvation but in reality it is the new life.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 22:31:16
Life = salvation
Well, regeneration, anyway.  The beginning of salvation.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: bond on Fri Oct 20, 2017 - 06:08:34

You Are Saved

Saved isn't part of the verb here, though it appears that way in English.  In Greek, that word refers to the ongoing state of being resulting from God's actions - in this case, that they are ALIVE.  This word in every other chapter/verse in the Bible is translated as healed, rather than saved, and IMO it would have been the best translation here as well, since a resurrection is what is in view.


The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 4982   Browse Lexicon
Original Word   Word Origin
sw/vzw   from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe")
Transliterated Word   TDNT Entry
Sozo   7:965,1132
Phonetic Spelling   Parts of Speech
sode'-zo    Verb
Definition
to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction
one (from injury or peril)
to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health
to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue
to save in the technical biblical sense
negatively 1b
to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment 1b
to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliverance
King James Word Usage - Total: 110
save 93, make whole 9, heal 3, be whole 2, miscellaneous 3

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/sozo.html
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: beloved57 on Fri Oct 20, 2017 - 08:25:24
yogi

Quote
We need to understand just what saved by grace is according to the biblical meaning and not of our personal view.

I believe its to be saved by Gods elective Grace apart from works. Rom 11:5-6

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Salvation by Grace is only for a remnant of men !
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Fri Oct 20, 2017 - 08:33:58
The remnant that Paul is speaking of in Romans 11 is the remnant of national Israel (vv. 1-2)
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Fri Oct 20, 2017 - 10:03:39
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 4982   Browse Lexicon
Original Word   Word Origin
sw/vzw   from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe")
Transliterated Word   TDNT Entry
Sozo   7:965,1132
Phonetic Spelling   Parts of Speech
sode'-zo    Verb
Definition
to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction
one (from injury or peril)
to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health
to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue
to save in the technical biblical sense
negatively 1b
to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment 1b
to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliverance
King James Word Usage - Total: 110
save 93, make whole 9, heal 3, be whole 2, miscellaneous 3

[url]http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/sozo.html[/url]

Hi Bond,

Good on you for being a Berean.  With apologies for a boring post...

σῴζω (the Strong's entry you posted) is only the root word.  The next step is to look at the casing, because the word in the verse is actually σεσῳσμένοι.

It's a participle of σῴζω, which is to say that it has been morphed to act like a noun rather than a verb.  It's also in the perfect case, which is to say that it represents the continuing effects of a completed action.

Or, to put it in the context of the verse...
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh
In Greek, that word refers to the ongoing state of being resulting from God's actions - in this case, that they are ALIVE.


I also claimed that this word usually refers to a healing.  I will now justify that claim.  There are 10 usages in the New Testament of the perfect tense of the verb σῴζω.  2 of them are in Ephesians 2, verses 5 and 8.  Here are the other eight usages, with the bolded sections representing the translation of the word we are discussing:

Mat 9:22 KJV - But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.
(Perfect Active Indicative)

Mar 5:34 KJV - And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
(Perfect Active Indicative)

Mar 10:52 KJV - And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.
(Perfect Active Indicative)

Luk 7:50 KJV - And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
(Perfect Active Indicative)

Luk 8:48 KJV - And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.
(Perfect Active Indicative)

Luk 17:19 KJV - And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.
(Perfect Active Indicative)

Luk 18:42 KJV - And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
(Note: In context, this refers to a physical healing.)
(Perfect Active Indicative)

Act 4:9 KJV - If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;
(Perfect Passive Indicative)
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Jaime on Fri Oct 20, 2017 - 10:25:47
Well, regeneration, anyway.  The beginning of salvation.

Yes, the justification part. The sanctification part is life long.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: beloved57 on Fri Oct 20, 2017 - 11:06:29
4wd

Quote
The remnant that Paul is speaking of in Romans 11 is the remnant of national Israel (vv. 1-2)

True enough, however the way of Salvation by Grace is the same for jew and gentile.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Fri Oct 20, 2017 - 11:15:48
4wd

True enough, however the way of Salvation by Grace is the same for jew and gentile.
Yes, but we are not ever called the remnant.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: beloved57 on Fri Oct 20, 2017 - 11:35:32
4wd

Quote
Some mistakenly conclude that Ephesians 2:8 says faith is a gift: “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.” This is disproved, though, by the rules of Greek grammar. The Greek word for “faith” (pistis) is feminine in gender; the pronoun referring to the gift (“that,” touto) is neuter. If it were referring back to faith, it too would be feminine in form. (We should note there is no word in the Greek corresponding to the pronoun “it.” That is why the two words "it is" in most translations are italicized)

Salvation/ being saved itself  is A Gift of God, and Faith accompanies Salvation, for we believe through Grace Acts 18:27

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

The word through here is the prep dia and means:


A.the ground or reason by which something is or is not done

i.by reason of


ii.on account of


iii.because of for this reason


iv.therefore


v.on this account


Believing is attributed to Grace Its a Spiritual Blessing !
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: beloved57 on Fri Oct 20, 2017 - 11:46:22
4wd

Quote
Yes, but we are not ever called the remnant.

A False statement not found in scripture. Gentiles are called a remnant for one Acts 15:14,17

Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

That residue of men refers to the gentiles and the word residue means :

 left down (behind), i.e remaining (plural the rest):—residue.

Thats the same thing remnant means.

And secondly, even if  this passage wasnt in scripture, jews and gentiles are saved by grace the same way. Unless you believe race and ethnicity plays a part in Salvation by Grace ! So either way you are in error !

You are constantly making off the wall statements without scripture support !
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Fri Oct 20, 2017 - 12:49:38
Beloved58
Quote
Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.


That is confirmed in many ways: it was the PEN OF THE SCRIBES who made the Jews special.   Abraham was a GENS or one of the NATIONS to be a BLESSING to other nations.  Genesis 49 curses the Levites and commanded that people not enter into covrernant with them or attend their "synagogues."  It was to Judah and Shiloh or REST that the godly were to look too.

Amos 9:7 Are ye not as children of the Ethiopians unto me, O children of Israel? saith the Lord. Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? and the Philistines from Caphtor, and the Syrians from Kir?
Amos 9:8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the Lord.
Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

God breathed (Spirit) into the prophets and that is the same Spirit OF Christ who breathed and Jesus articulated what God was inSPIRITING Him to say.  Later, Paul in Galatians 3 affirms many statements in the Old Testament which FOR THE SPIRITUAL SECTOR was the Covenant that God made with Abraham. He leapfrogs the Monarchy which God turned over to worship the starry host which in these last days is defined by the Greek Apollo, Apollon or Abaddon.

The Great Commission was to ALL NATIONS because Jesus didn't recognize JEWS who despised their EDUCATING all of the OTHER GENS and turned to enslaving and murdering anyone who stood in their way which wound no be Jesus and Stephen who shows that the  Civil-Military-Clergy that God HAD NOT commanded their temple.

(http://www.piney.com/Isaiah.49.Preserved.RemnantA.gif)

The people is Latin populus  The people, LAOS opp. to the Senate, opposite the MULTITUDES

(http://www.piney.com/g2992.Laos.gif)

"Messianic Jews" are still Jews who claimed that Jesus was Messiah for the Jews and the New Covenant is the Old Covernant to the Jews but "gentiles" might tag along. They are a DETERMINING FACTOR in universities and silly churches who don't grasp the FABLES OF THE JEWS or Judaizing.

Matt. 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mark 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
Gal. 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Rev. 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

1484.  ethnos, eth´-nos; probably from 1486; a race (as of the same habit), i.e. a tribe; specially, a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually, by implication, pagan): — Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

The HOUSE of ISRAEL is Domos or LAOS "Excluding priests or Levites" whom Jacob Cursed and God abandoned to worship the Astrial gods, serpents and fire.  They were an old Egyptian and Indian Infant Burning Priesthood.  AS PROPHESIED most dominant clergy see themselves as PRIESTS (mediating the Word, salvation and burial) and Levites who made NOISE (CCM) and never tuneful or metrical music.   



Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: NorrinRadd on Sat Oct 21, 2017 - 20:22:22
...
You Are Saved

Saved isn't part of the verb here, though it appears that way in English.  In Greek, that word refers to the ongoing state of being resulting from God's actions - in this case, that they are ALIVE.  This word in every other chapter/verse in the Bible is translated as healed, rather than saved, ...

I'm skimming through this thread.  I may get back with more.  For the nonce, suffice to say that this assertion is not even close to being true.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sat Oct 21, 2017 - 20:29:17
I'm skimming through this thread.  I may get back with more.  For the nonce, suffice to say that this assertion is not even close to being true.
Covered in reply #34.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: beloved57 on Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 03:13:22
It must be given to believe on Christ Phil 1:29

For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake

The word given here charizomai from the word which we get the word grace. Faith is out of Grace, the whole of Salvation by Grace through Faith is the Gift of God. Faith is not mans part or of ourselves , Faith is also Gods part for its the fruit of God the Holy Spirit Gal 5:22

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: l.a.providence on Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 04:52:25
If it is by grace through faith, then you have to go through the faith process to get to it.  Sounds works oriented I guess but really, if grace is at the end of a tunnel then I have to actually go through the tunnel to get to it.  Faith is our part. I don't think the cross automatically saved the world.  It was a means to get the world saved. We actually have to do something to get to the grace and that something is to believe.  Now the million dollar question is, "is my body just going to nurture a spiritual birth of belief, something superspritual that we can't understand but somehow we wake up believing one day," or does belief mean that I have to perform an action. Some say baptism is that act that shows our faith.  I've seen both sides of the coin.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: beloved57 on Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 07:07:36
l.a. providence

Quote
If it is by grace through faith, then you have to go through the faith process to get to it.  Sounds works oriented I guess but really, if grace is at the end of a tunnel then I have to actually go through the tunnel to get to it.  Faith is our part. I don't think the cross automatically saved the world.  It was a means to get the world saved. We actually have to do something to get to the grace and that something is to believe.  Now the million dollar question is, "is my body just going to nurture a spiritual birth of belief, something superspritual that we can't understand but somehow we wake up believing one day," or does belief mean that I have to perform an action. Some say baptism is that act that shows our faith.  I've seen both sides of the coin.

I never seen any of this in scripture before. Do you have scripture for any of this ?
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: beloved57 on Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 07:10:19
l.a providence

Quote
Faith is our part.

By this statement do you mean to say that Faith is a mans part in getting saved ? If thats what you mean can you provide a scripture that says that please ?
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 07:19:22
l.a providence

By this statement do you mean to say that Faith is a mans part in getting saved ? If thats what you mean can you provide a scripture that says that please ?
Yeah, Ephesians 2:8.  "by grace through faith".  It is man's faith; certainly not God's.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: beloved57 on Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 07:23:45
4wd

Quote
Yeah, Ephesians 2:8.  "by grace through faith".  It is man's faith; certainly not God's.

Eph 2:8 says nothing about Faith being mans ! In fact the context in which Faith is found in that verse argues that Faith along with Salvation is not of ourselves but the Grace of God !
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 07:43:19
4wd

Eph 2:8 says nothing about Faith being mans ! In fact the context in which Faith is found in that verse argues that Faith along with Salvation is not of ourselves but the Grace of God !
It says nothing about Grace being God's either.  The "that" in the Greek [touto] is neuter gender so that it cannot reference back to either grace or faith since both are feminine gender.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: beloved57 on Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 08:35:48
4wd

Quote
It says nothing about Grace being God's either.  The "that" in the Greek [touto] is neuter gender so that it cannot reference back to either grace or faith since both are feminine gender.

So you are adding to Gods word because you have failed t show where it says in Eph 2:8 Faith is mans part ! Now Faith is of Grace both Faith and Grace are feminine nouns. The Christian believes because of Grace Acts 18:27

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Its evil and misleading to ascribe to man what should be ascribed to God and or His Grace !
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 08:41:58
4wd

So you are adding to Gods word because you have failed t show where it says in Eph 2:8 Faith is mans part ! Now Faith is of Grace both Faith and Grace are feminine nouns. The Christian believes because of Grace Acts 18:27

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Its evil and misleading to ascribe to man what should be ascribed to God and or His Grace !
I am not adding anything to God's word.  The Christian believes because God has given him a free will to think and to choose and because the totality of God's word presents the powerful evidence and witness to the truth of the Gospel.  And that Gospel is the "power of God for salvation to everyone who believes."

What is evil and misleading is the entire false theology presented by TULIP.  It is at the very outset grotesque.  And it is distortions such as you are presenting here and elsewhere that perpetuates that evil and misleading theology.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: beloved57 on Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 08:45:12
4wd

Quote
What is evil and misleading is the entire false theology presented by TULIP.  It is at the very outset grotesque.  And it is distortions such as you are presenting here and elsewhere that perpetuates that evil and misleading theology.

You just ignored more scripture truth !
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 08:49:33
4wd

You just ignored more scripture truth !
Reformed Theology ignores all scripture truth as it relates to soteriology and much else.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: beloved57 on Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 09:23:02
4wd

Quote
Reformed Theology ignores all scripture truth as it relates to soteriology and much else.

Continuing in your ignoring of scripture truth ! Post 50
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 09:29:17
4wd

Continuing in your ignoring of scripture truth ! Post 50
TULIP is the epitome of the ignoring of scripture truth.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: beloved57 on Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 09:39:49
4wd

Quote
TULIP is the epitome of the ignoring of scripture truth.

Continuing in your ignoring of scripture truth ! Post 50
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Tue Oct 24, 2017 - 12:51:21
It must be given to believe on Christ Phil 1:29

For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake

The word given here charizomai from the word which we get the word grace. Faith is out of Grace, the whole of Salvation by Grace through Faith is the Gift of God. Faith is not mans part or of ourselves , Faith is also Gods part for its the fruit of God the Holy Spirit Gal 5:22

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,


 ::thumbup::
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: grams on Tue Oct 24, 2017 - 14:08:48

[b ]   
8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
 9
Not of works, lest any man should boast
 
      [/b]

This   means  we  are saved  through  faith    no   works  or any thing  , but  Belief in

GOD  and  JESUS............................  !

We  understand  what   JESUS   did for us at the Cross...............  How much pain  JESUS  suffered for

Our sins..................  HE  has no  sins......................  But  we  sure do. !!!
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Tue Oct 24, 2017 - 15:23:25
FAITH COMES BY. HEARING THE WORD: THE GIFT IS SALVATION TO THOSE WHO ARE BAPTIZED. We simple simon who learned to read before the Teachers decided that reading, riting and rithmatic and spellin is no longer offered because THEY need an ignorant serfdom.

For by grace are ye SAVED
          through faith;
          and that [salvation] is not of yourselves:
it is the GIFT of God: Eph 2:8

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ
          for the remission of sins,
          and ye shall receive
          the GIFT of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38

Mark 16:16 He that believeth [complies] AND is baptized shall be SAVED;
          but he that believeth not shall be damned.

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin,
        but ye have OBEYED from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Rom 6:17

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. Rom 6:18

Rom. 6:23 For the WAGES of sin is death; but the GIFT of God is ETERNAL LIFE through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If faith does not come by HEARING the WORD which is PREACHED as the ONLY POWER of God TO SALVATION then you say that the Holy Spirit is a liar.

It is true that the DUST people or ABORIGINES or OF THE WORLD or Tartarus ARE NOT GIVEN to believe: that is why Jesus spoke in parables to the Jewish Clergy as a RACE OF VIPERS and not the few faithful ISRAELITES (spiritual).

Those OF the World or Kosmos or the ECUMENICAL are the kingdom of the Devil as OPPOSED to the Kingdom of Christ.  The sons of the Devil can easily be detected: THEY SPEAK ON THEIR OWN and refute the Word, Logos or Regulative Principle. Those who SPEAK the WORD are marked because the WORLD hates them.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Jaime on Tue Oct 24, 2017 - 16:22:01
Absolutely the gift mentioned this verse IS salvation.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Wed Oct 25, 2017 - 01:57:14
If faith does not come by HEARING the WORD which is PREACHED as the ONLY POWER of God TO SALVATION then you say that the Holy Spirit is a liar.

Faith sure comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. But that does not mean that it comes not from God. Now the word of God is written in scriptures. If we look in scriptures, we see that God spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, but has in these last days spoken by His Son.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

Even while God's words spoken to man through His Son in the last days, that is, beginning from some 2000+ years ago up to the present, are written in these scriptures, do all hear the voice of God, the words of God spoken then through His Son? These same scriptures tells us that not all to whom the words of God is spoken to, are able to hear what God says.

John 8:47

New International Version
Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

King James Bible
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Clearly, the scriptures above tells us that there are people said to be of God or who belongs to God, and there are people said to be not of God or people who does not belong to God. And whether one hears God's words or not, depends on this matter. If one belongs to God then he will hear God's words, if not, then he won't hear. And those who hears are obviously them who obtained faith. And this is by God, not by the man.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Wed Oct 25, 2017 - 06:20:45
Faith sure comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. But that does not mean that it comes not from God. Now the word of God is written in scriptures. If we look in scriptures, we see that God spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, but has in these last days spoken by His Son.
The word of God is the source for the evidence on which we base our faith in God.  It provides the information and the data upon which we are convinced of the truth of the Gospel message of our creator God and His Son, our Lord and Savior.  But it is we who decide, based upon that evidence, that we believe the evidence and therefore believe in God.  God provides us with all that is necessary to believe, it is we who decided to believe.


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Wed Oct 25, 2017 - 06:45:21
The word of God is the source for the evidence on which we base our faith in God.
4WD~I have a question for you and anyone else who desires to give their input and it is this: Knowing that most that have lived in this world have never had the same chance as you and I have had to hear the word of God, and knowing this, my question would be~is God fair? In order to believe as you believe and others, then I would ask myself IS THIS FAIR? Even among those that have heard over and over, most do not have the same ability to comprehend and to process information that you believe is necessary to come to faith in Christ....is this fair? Some sit under gifted ministers who are able to open up the truths of the scriptures, some have never had a minister capable of doing the same...is this fair?

Bottom line, would not all have to be on the same level playing field in this game of life, in order for it to be fair for everyone to have the same chance for eternal life since, after all, it is left up to the individual
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Wed Oct 25, 2017 - 06:50:32
Even while God's words spoken to man through His Son in the last days, that is, beginning from some 2000+ years ago up to the present, are written in these scriptures, do all hear the voice of God, the words of God spoken then through His Son? These same scriptures tells us that not all to whom the words of God is spoken to, are able to hear what God says.

John 8:47

New International Version
Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

King James Bible
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
You give us the perfect example of what happens when only one or two verses are isolated and presented outside the context in which it was written.

Michael,  Jesus said in John 8:45: "But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me." So therefore taken out of context we can conclude that all who do not believe Jesus is because He tells the truth.  But that is not what Jesus is saying.

Jesus, in the entire chapter 8 of John, is speaking to and responding to the Scribes and Pharisees (v.3), whom He already had declared to be sons of the devil.  In verse 43 and 44 he declares that they being sons of the devil have already decided to do the will of the devil.  It is for that reason that they do not hear.  It is their will, it is their decision.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Oct 25, 2017 - 11:00:41
4WD~I have a question for you and anyone else who desires to give their input and it is this: Knowing that most that have lived in this world have never had the same chance as you and I have had to hear the word of God, and knowing this, my question would be~is God fair? In order to believe as you believe and others, then I would ask myself IS THIS FAIR? Even among those that have heard over and over, most do not have the same ability to comprehend and to process information that you believe is necessary to come to faith in Christ....is this fair? Some sit under gifted ministers who are able to open up the truths of the scriptures, some have never had a minister capable of doing the same...is this fair?

Bottom line, would not all have to be on the same level playing field in this game of life, in order for it to be fair for everyone to have the same chance for eternal life since, after all, it is left up to the individual?
I do not see where equality of opportunity - aka fairness - is preached in my Bible.  That seems to be an American virtue.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Jaime on Wed Oct 25, 2017 - 13:27:41
4WD~I have a question for you and anyone else who desires to give their input and it is this: Knowing that most that have lived in this world have never had the same chance as you and I have had to hear the word of God, and knowing this, my question would be~is God fair? In order to believe as you believe and others, then I would ask myself IS THIS FAIR? Even among those that have heard over and over, most do not have the same ability to comprehend and to process information that you believe is necessary to come to faith in Christ....is this fair? Some sit under gifted ministers who are able to open up the truths of the scriptures, some have never had a minister capable of doing the same...is this fair?

Bottom line, would not all have to be on the same level playing field in this game of life, in order for it to be fair for everyone to have the same chance for eternal life since, after all, it is left up to the individual?

Wasn't the Great Commission our instructions for "leveling the playing field?"

Mathew 28:19 - 20
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


Spreading the Gospel of Christ in this manner was kind of God's Multi-Level Marketing Plan. Make disciples by teaching and baptizing them, then they make disciples, then their disciples  also make disciples and so on. Sorry for the Amway analogy! 
 ::peeking::
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Wed Oct 25, 2017 - 13:44:01
4WD~I have a question for you and anyone else who desires to give their input and it is this: Knowing that most that have lived in this world have never had the same chance as you and I have had to hear the word of God, and knowing this, my question would be~is God fair? In order to believe as you believe and others, then I would ask myself IS THIS FAIR? Even among those that have heard over and over, most do not have the same ability to comprehend and to process information that you believe is necessary to come to faith in Christ....is this fair? Some sit under gifted ministers who are able to open up the truths of the scriptures, some have never had a minister capable of doing the same...is this fair?

Bottom line, would not all have to be on the same level playing field in this game of life, in order for it to be fair for everyone to have the same chance for eternal life since, after all, it is left up to the individual?

There is an inherent consideration to be given the meaning of faith or believing in God.  We are told that it comes from hearing.  We are not told explicitly how God plans to deal with those who have not had the opportunity to hear.  We are told about those who "disbelieve".  In the word "disbelieve" it is understood that they have heard and rejected.  Now it is a different consideration if there are those who hear and as you state, "so not have the same ability to comprehend and to process information".  I am quite sure that God will deal justly [and fairly] with both those who have never heard and those unable to grasp the significance of what they are being told.

I understand that runs against what you believe, but what you believe runs counter to so much that God says about Himself.  The very idea that He would condemn individuals under the concept of unconditional election is abhorrent, and speaks volumes against your interpretation of the Scriptures you think support it.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Wed Oct 25, 2017 - 13:50:32
I do not see where equality of opportunity - aka fairness - is preached in my Bible.  That seems to be an American virtue.
I think any reasonable meaning we have for fairness must come from God, the same as our view of Justice, Grace, Kindness, Goodness, Loving or any of the other virtues or attributes we see in God's relations with his creation.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Jaime on Wed Oct 25, 2017 - 13:54:07
And it's not fair for us as Christians to ignore the Great Commission which IS the ultimate field leveling, equal opportunity and loving and compassionate effort in history, aside from Christ's work on the cross.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Wed Oct 25, 2017 - 21:25:24
Michael2012 on Today at 01:57:14
Quote
Faith sure comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. But that does not mean that it comes not from God. Now the word of God is written in scriptures. If we look in scriptures, we see that God spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, but has in these last days spoken by His Son.
The word of God is the source for the evidence on which we base our faith in God.  It provides the information and the data upon which we are convinced of the truth of the Gospel message of our creator God and His Son, our Lord and Savior.  But it is we who decide, based upon that evidence, that we believe the evidence and therefore believe in God.  God provides us with all that is necessary to believe, it is we who decided to believe.

The word of God is anything and all that which proceeded from God. And what these are, are what is written in scriptures. As such, what we have in scriptures is God's words. And as words are spoken, God's words comes to one by hearing God's voice. When I write a letter to my mom and mom reads it, the words written in the letter are like my spoken words to mom, as hearing my voice. In that sense, the written words served to be the voice of the one to whom the words came from. So, the scriptures is the voice of God. So that is what we have in scriptures. And what is in scriptures is truth, is spirit, is life, more than evidence, information, or data.

On the matter of you being the one deciding to believe, it does not remove the truth that only those who belong to God hears God's voice, His words, and those who belong not to God does not. 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 00:01:10
Michael2012 on Today at 01:57:14
Quote
Even while God's words spoken to man through His Son in the last days, that is, beginning from some 2000+ years ago up to the present, are written in these scriptures, do all hear the voice of God, the words of God spoken then through His Son? These same scriptures tells us that not all to whom the words of God is spoken to, are able to hear what God says.

John 8:47

New International Version
Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

King James Bible
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
You give us the perfect example of what happens when only one or two verses are isolated and presented outside the context in which it was written.

Michael,  Jesus said in John 8:45: "But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me." So therefore taken out of context we can conclude that all who do not believe Jesus is because He tells the truth.  But that is not what Jesus is saying.

Jesus, in the entire chapter 8 of John, is speaking to and responding to the Scribes and Pharisees (v.3), whom He already had declared to be sons of the devil.  In verse 43 and 44 he declares that they being sons of the devil have already decided to do the will of the devil. It is for that reason that they do not hear.  It is their will, it is their decision.


Yes, they are sons of the devil (v. 44). The "they" refers to the Jews, the descendants of Abraham, that He was conversing with. Jesus went on to tell them about their father, the devil. That the devil was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. He said that the devil speaks a lie, for he is a liar and the father of it. In verse 43, Jesus said, "Why do you not understand My speech? There is in this a strong point that, it is as if to them, to their ears, Jesus speaks a tongue/language they don't understand. And with this put in the context, what they speak, as do their father, the devil, which are lies, and what Jesus speaks which are truth, seems to be like two different tongues. 

And so Jesus said to them "But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me". And why they do not believe Him, is that what He speaks is truth, which to them is like a foreign tongue so they are not able to listen to His word and do not understand. And this is because they are of the devil or that they are not of God.

Now, another point, and to be more exact, what Jesus said in verse 47 is not about "believing", but about "hearing".

John 8:47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

These, Jesus have spoken to the Jews, the Scribes and Pharisees with them. But then, the Gentile sinners are no different from them, who equally are of the devil.

Who then can hear God's words? Jesus tells us that they are those who are of God, those who belongs to God. Now, we know that those who do not belong to God or are not of God are sinners. So we can notice that Jesus in verse 46 asked them the question, "Which of you convicts Me of sin?". Not only making the point that He is without sin and so is of God, but His statement strongly implies a truth, a truth yet to be revealed in the near future relative to that point in time, regarding those who are of God, those who can hear God's words. 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 00:17:13
2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

4WD, what do you understand of "obtained" here? This question goes as well to those who have the same or similar view of faith as 4WD.

Strong's Concordance
lagchanó: to obtain by lot
Original Word: λαγχάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: lagchanó
Phonetic Spelling: (lang-khan'-o)
Short Definition: I obtain by lot, cast lots
Definition: (a) I obtain (receive) by lot, my lot (turn) is, (b) I draw lots.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2975: λαγχάνω

λαγχάνω: 2 aorist ἔλαχον;
1. to obtain by lot (from Homer down): with the genitive of the thing, Luke 1:9 (cf. Buttmann, 269 (231); Winers Grammar, 319 (299)); to receive by divine allotment, obtain: τί, Acts 1:17; 2 Peter 1:1; on the construction of this verb with the genitive and accusative of the thing, see Matthiae, § 328; Winers Grammar, 200 (188); (cf. Buttmann, § 132, 8).

2. to cast lots, determine by lot (Isocrates, p. 144 b.; Diodorus 4, 63 (cf. ps.-Demosthenes in middle, p. 510, 26)): περί τίνος, John 19:24. 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 00:46:31
And it's not fair for us as Christians to ignore the Great Commission which IS the ultimate field leveling, equal opportunity and loving and compassionate effort in history, aside from Christ's work on the cross.

With regards the "Great Commission" you are talking about, I don't think that Jesus commanded His disciples "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.", to be viewed us something for "leveling the playing field". To be sure, whatever God does is fair.

Consider this:

John 10:14-16
14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

John 11:49-52
49 And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, 50 nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish.” 51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 04:43:04
Wasn't the Great Commission our instructions for "leveling the playing field?"
Brother, MOST of the history of the world as of today was before Matthew 28~so, how about those poor people before the cross? Even in the OT, God by-passed all nations, except one small little nation called the Hebrew people and left all nations to themselves without instructions and means of knowing how to please the God of heaven who created all things. Even after the cross, the the white horse left Jerusalem (See Revelation 6:2) and went away from India, China, which makes up most of this world's population and went toward those nations and cities that constitute our NT epistles!  India and China TO THIS DAY still show evidence of God's sovereign decisions to by-pass them, do they not. I agree with Wycliffes_Shillelagh that said:
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh
I do not see where equality of opportunity - aka fairness - is preached in my Bible.  That seems to be an American virtue.
That seems to be an American virtue was no doubt added in a jesting manner, for every man is out for themselves apart from God's grace being lived out in their lives and even then it's a battle with our sinful flesh.

No, my friend God is not interesting on having a level playing field, for NO MAN deserves it to be so, for we ALL had that in Adam and lost this level playing field.
Quote from: 4WD
We are not told explicitly how God plans to deal with those who have not had the opportunity to hear. 
Sir, again and again, you refuse to accept that IN ADAM God gave every posterity that should come from Adam the absolutely BEST opportunity to obey and follow his commandments! ONE little simple commandment was given to Adam, yet he sinned and we IN HIM. Every man since Adam has a wicked nature to deal with IN HIS ATTEMPT to please God, and Paul clearly tells us that IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to please God in our flesh received from father Adam! Romans 8:7, etc.
Quote from: 4WD
We are not told explicitly how God plans to deal with those who have not had the opportunity to hear.
Oh sir, we are told in no uncertain voice form heaven~all are UNDER condemnation and shall die in their sins, IF their sins are not legally atoned for by a PERFECT PAYMENT unto the Law Giver. That's where the covenant of GRACE come into the story of redemption found in the holy scriptures.  God laid help upon ONE that was mighty to save his people given to him by God, the rest God was NOT under any obligation to provide a redeemer for~that he willed to provide one for some was an act of free grace, moved only by his own will and nothing outside of him. If think that's not fair, then you need to listen to Paul's rebuke of people that feel as you do.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 9:14-21~What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Before God put anything into action by creation, he KNEW PERFECTLY that he alone was immutable and that he alone could not be tempted with sin, yet he moved forward creating all things, for he also knew that MORE good could be done by doing so.
Quote from: 4WD
I am quite sure that God will deal justly [and fairly] with both those who have never heard and those unable to grasp the significance of what they are being told.
God's Justice demands that he punishes sin and the sinner, he will NOT just overlook, sin~it is impossible for Him to do so, and still be righteous, and a hater of iniquity. If he does not lay a person's sins on Christ, then they MUST be punished and perish from his presence.
Quote from: 4WD
I understand that runs against what you believe, but what you believe runs counter to so much that God says about Himself.  The very idea that He would condemn individuals under the concept of unconditional election
First, it matters little what either of us believes, but what does God's word reveal to us concerning TRUTH. Oh, for sure what you believe runs counter to what I see and understand from God's word, let us be straight concerning that~for the burden is on BOTH of us to make sure that we are in agreement WITH GOD, not so much with each other. Truth is always in the minority, so it moves me very little to see who agrees with me and who does not, I'm ONLY concern with my understanding being in line with God's testimony of what truth is.
Quote from: 4WD
The very idea that He would condemn individuals under the concept of unconditional election
First, unconditional election is not a concept, but a bible truth. Here is where you truly have trouble with God, not with me.... sir~ unconditional election removes man OUT of the equation of having any part in his salvation from sin and condemnation. Romans 11:5,6 is quite clear with many other scriptures that could be added.

Secondly, God DOES not condemn men UNDER the concept of unconditional election, they are condemned because of SIN......unconditional election SECURES their salvation from the wages of sin.

I'm going to deal with Ephesians 2:8 and FAITH in my next post.



Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: l.a.providence on Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 04:53:24
Through faith- you wondered about scripture to back this up:

I'm using common sense theology....not at all saying posts here have no common sense.  I understand that it's all God and God initiated everything from the beginning. However, If I have to be baptized to be saved, then that is something I am going through (something I have to do to access this grace).  Why go into the world and preach if we did not play the most vital role, to actually "do something."
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Jaime on Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 06:12:14
Red, don’t you figure God made provision for the righteous by faith before the cross as he did with Abraham? Jesus’s sacrifice was sufficient for the righteous before the cross as well as after.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Ginger Rella on Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 07:17:19
Yes we all agree that we are saved by grace through faith no doubt but just what does that mean? The answer to that is what we need to bring into unity for there are as many different answers to that as there are posters on this forum.

So in your opinion just what does that statement mean? How would go go about explaining that to an unbeliever? Does it have more than one meaning? Can we just believe what ever we want or does it have substance with it and a true meaning that all should be in unity on?

Yogi

I will try to give a simple answer to what is faith.

In this case faith being how I feel and believe in God, Jesus, and also the Holy Spirit. For me it is belief in the Holy Trinity.

Incorporated into that belief is the additional belief that Jesus was sent by Father God, to be born of a virgin, to become a mortal man and live among the people with the directive, as it were, to become a living sacrifice for our sins.

Jesus is called the Lamb of God, and rightfully so as out heavenly Father actually provided a sacrifice for us. (Unlike old testament times when thay did animal sacrifices.)

Just think about that for a moment.

God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son.....  For us. For you, for me.... and we all know it goes on to say... that whoever believes......

So first and foremost important is you must believe this totally and unwavering.

As someone I once knew used to say.

I know because my know, knows.

Meaning total comprehension of what was done and no shadow of a doubt.

This is what I call faith.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 07:31:04
Sir, again and again, you refuse to accept that IN ADAM God gave every posterity that should come from Adam the absolutely BEST opportunity to obey and follow his commandments! ONE little simple commandment was given to Adam, yet he sinned and we IN HIM.
The "we IN HIM" is your fatal error.  That might have been the case were it not for Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. But Jesus did become a man and died for the whole world, i.e., all men.  In doing so, the "one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."(Rom 5:18)
Quote
IF their sins are not legally atoned for by a PERFECT PAYMENT unto the Law Giver. That's where the covenant of GRACE come into the story of redemption found in the holy scriptures.
Yes but God says that Jesus paid the price for "not only our sins, but for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2) But that is another fatal flaw in the TULIP fiasco.  Paul also tells us the same thing.  He said in 2 Corinthians 5:17-19, Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Clearly there is no limit to what Christ has done.  Who will accept what He as done is another story altogether.

And once again you bring out Romans 9:14-21 erroneously thinking that he is speaking there of the salvation of the individual when he is actually speaking about using national Israel to bring salvation to the world.  That would be obvious if you would just read it sans TULIP.
Quote
God's Justice demands that he punishes sin and the sinner, he will NOT just overlook, sin~it is impossible for Him to do so, and still be righteous, and a hater of iniquity. If he does not lay a person's sins on Christ, then they MUST be punished and perish from his presence. 
But of course we shall all stand at the judgment seat of Christ to answer for the things we have done, whether good or bad.  Paul said in Romans 14, "Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
Quote
First, it matters little what either of us believes, but what does God's word reveal to us concerning TRUTH. Oh, for sure what you believe runs counter to what I see and understand from God's word, let us be straight concerning that~for the burden is on BOTH of us to make sure that we are in agreement WITH GOD, not so much with each other.
I certainly agree with that.
Quote
First, unconditional election is not a concept, but a bible truth. Here is where you truly have trouble with God, not with me.... sir~ unconditional election removes man OUT of the equation of having any part in his salvation from sin and condemnation. Romans 11:5,6 is quite clear with many other scriptures that could be added.
There is nothing in either of those two verses that says or even hints at anything like unconditional election. And by the way the remnant that Paul speaks of there is the remnant of national Israel under the Old Covenant who were saved (Rom 11:1-2).
Quote
Secondly, God DOES not condemn men UNDER the concept of unconditional election, they are condemned because of SIN......unconditional election SECURES their salvation from the wages of sin.
If you believe in unconditional election then you must also believe in unconditional reprobation.  You cannot have one without the other.  Fortunately neither is true.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 07:44:11
Red, don’t you figure God made provision for the righteous by faith before the cross as he did with Abraham?
Brother, I'm not sure what you are asking~but let me say this for now~Abraham, you and I are born again in the exact same manner. But, more than that, just as Abraham's faith only proved that he had been regenerated by the Spirit, so does our faith do the same. Now, this would truly be a great thread to start for then Genesis' account of Abraham could be understood along with Romans four and Galatians three, which I'm convinced few understand its full impact of what Paul is teaching.

Abraham's faith was NOT the means of him being made righteous, but his faith proved that he WAS righteous, made so by the grace of God THROUGH Jesus' obedience and righteousness!
Quote from: Jaime
Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for the righteous before the cross as well as after.
Jesus' faith and obedience were more than a SUFFICIENT sacrifice for every elect member of his body (OT and NT believers, from Abel unto the last sheep born in this world) to free us from God's condemnation..... I fully agree with.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 07:50:37
The "we IN HIM" is your fatal error. 
I'm leaving to go out of town, but should be back later on today.

I'm looking forward discussing this more in depth, also to give my understanding of Ephesians 2:8,9 which most will reject because they have never heard of it before, I'm pretty sure of that.  Later...............RB
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 08:15:16
Rb,
Once again, you separate regeneration and salvation.  You propose that man is born again by the Spirit of God, but has not yet at that point been saved.  While regeneration is not the same as salvation, the two occur simultaneously.  Under the New Covenant, salvation which consists of Justification and Regeneration [and initial sanctification] all occur at one instant in time.  If one has been regenerated then he is saved; if one has been saved then he is regenerated.  Same is true for justification.

And you continue to reject the very statement of Ephesians 2:8 that "by grace you have been saved through faith" We have been saved through faith.  That is fundamental. 

Heb 11:8  By faith Abraham obeyed.....

Heb 11:9  By faith he went to live....

Heb 11:13  These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.


If God saved Abraham and I think we would all agree that God did save him, then it was By Faith that he was saved.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 08:53:28
And, the PROOF goes on and on: No one is said to have sins remitted who HAS NOT OBEYED in Baptism.  No one is said to have been added to the Church by Christ who has not been baptized.  No one is said to have been accepted as a disciple until after the have OBEYED and become FREE from sin.  ALL of those OF FAITH obeyed whatever it was they TRUSTED.  Faith or Pistis includes TO COMPLY.

Abraham is not said to have been SAVED because he was not LOST. Sin was in the world so that people could SIN their own sin and not blame ADAM. Abraham is said to have been a RIGHTEOUS man. Saved does not mean Justified.

    Heb.11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

    Heb.11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac; and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

ISAAC was defined as THE SON because he was obedient.

    Ja. 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had OFFERED Isaac his son upon the altar?
    Ja. 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? [Pistis includes COMPLY]
    Ja.2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Abraham is not said to have BELIEVED God until he had obeyed God: Believeth means to COMPLY.

    Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for NOW I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

    Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for BECAUSE thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son,

    Gen 22:17 THAT in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

    Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; BECAUSE thou hast obeyed my voice.

God restated this to Isaac:

    Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

    Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
    Gen 26:6 And Isaac dwelt in Gerar: [Kept God's Commandments VALID BEFORE the Curse of the Law of Moses]

I don't think that means SINGULAR: Each and every time God commanded Abraham to do something and he DID IT he was justified or approved by Faith

THE LAW OF MOSES does not avail any more than running GREEN lights makes you a good citizen.

    1Co.7:19 7 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing but the keeping of the commandmentS of God.

    Ga.5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but FAITH which WORKETH by love.

    Ga.6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a NEW creature.

We are BORN AGAIN or become a new CREATURE ONLY AT BAPTISM.

    John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot SEE the kingdom of God.

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot ENTER into the kingdom of God.

Those who are baptized are ADDED to the Church, the kingdom for the WORLD as Messianic Age.  Those whose faith OBEYS have their spirits translated into the heavenly kingdom.  The Church is a SAFE HOUSE FROM THE WORLD and not a safe house FOR the WORLD as Kosmos, Ecumenical, the kingdom of the devil.

ALL RECORDED EVIDENCE IS REPUDIATED because of Saved BY Grace THROUGH Faith.  THROUGH is active and if you read the first verses of Ephesians 2 you understand that these people are ALREADY Disciples and we shows FROM WHAT we are saved or KEPT SAFE from the race of vipers BY FAITHFULNESS. That proves that TULIP is a THORN BLOSSOM.

         
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 09:06:30
Saved does not mean Justified.
You are correct, saved does not mean justified; however if one is saved then he has been justified and if he is justified then he has been saved.

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 09:39:50
That's true: one is justified or righteous in a natural sense which is a legal or civil sense.  A person who obeys the laws and is recognized as lawful is justified in a legal sense.  A person known to steal is not righteous and the community shuns them.

Because Jesus has become OUR righteousness and we are CLOTHED with HIM, God sees us as spiritually righteous.  No one can be sinless or morally perfect.  Those who refuse to come to the LIGHT do not want to be FREED.

THE OLD:    The WASHINGS that made a Jew ceremonially pure could not make the Spirit or Conscience or consciousness pure.
THE NEW:   The Washings or Baptism into Christ DOES SAVE.
BECAUSE?: BECAUSE THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO and they are UNGRACIOUS

I worry about people who believe that THEIR BELIEF is so powerful that they can REFUSE to ask for salvation.  Baptism is PURE GRACE.

Rom. 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto MANY.
Rom. 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom. 5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one;
         much more they which receive abundance of grace
         and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

HOW IS THAT?
Rom. 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom. 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom. 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom. 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom. 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom. 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom. 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom. 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom. 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 13:24:59
I worry about people who believe that THEIR BELIEF is so powerful that they can REFUSE to ask for salvation.  Baptism is PURE GRACE.
Never met such a person, Kenneth. Those who are born of God's Spirit, are constantly seeking to be "saved from their ignorance, lack of love for others and the truth"....ONLY because they have already been enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were already been made partakers of the gift of the Holy Ghost!
Quote from: Kenneth Sublett
Baptism is PURE GRACE
I would ask you to explain your statement, but, I know that that would be impossible for you to do so, so I forbear. But, I will help you out a little~The "GRACE" of God provided immortality for us through the life, death, and resurrection of Christ THAT ALONE secured righteousness for us unto eternal life that we are baptized INTO...... and when we are baptized in "water baptism" this beautiful picture speaks to all that we believe we SHALL have at the RESURRECTION of our body "ELSE", why are we baptized for the dead, IF the dead rise not....having and enjoying immortality never to die again. Some wonderful scriptures to consider to support this:
Quote from: Paul
Romans 5:15-17~"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Again:
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 15:29~"Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, IF the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
One of the main reason why believers are baptized is this: "We believe in a future resurrection of our bodies unto immortality just like our Lord was raised unto! ONE of the main reasons WHY we are baptized, and to NOT be baptized is saying that you do not believe this blessed truth.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 13:44:56
Quote
Romans 5:15-17~"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

One day you are going to read that passage and the rest of it, i.e., Romans 5:11-21 and finally understand it.  As it now stands you are quite in the dark about it.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Fri Oct 27, 2017 - 08:08:42
I will give you the true biblical sense in which we MUSt understand Ephesians  2:8,9 in order for those precious scriptures to flow with ALL of the word of God producing a perfect harmony on one precious and glorious truth, that Salvation IS of the Lord.
I'm ready now to consider Ephesians 2:8,9 and will work hard to consider these scriptures in light of the context in which we read them.

I must confess that from when I first hear these scriptures around forty-five years ago in my mid-twenties, I received them as I was taught to understand them at that time. Over the years, my understanding has changed totally as to when I first heard them explained to me and I received it as a babe in Christ. Only in the last few years do I believe I finally "may" (UNLESS another brother could convert me to his understanding with strong proof from the scriptures) now be hearing what Paul meant when he wrote these words to church.

Truth is not something easily understood, and especially is this so by young believers, even aged believers struggle with truth at times (quite often really, if we are honest) and will until we leave this world. As I have said many times over~conversion to the correct knowledge of the truth is a lifelong process and is never totally completed, even by the very best of God's children.
Quote from: Paul
Ephesians 2:8,~For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
I'm coming back and prove that faith, which is the gift of God that saved us from sin and condemnation is speaking of CHRIST'S FAITH, not an act that came FROM US.

So, Paul used "faith" in Ephesians 2:8 "as a metonym for Christ", Now that being said I must come back and prove it, and I shall for the context without question will prove this to be so. Later...
 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Fri Oct 27, 2017 - 16:09:17
RB: you daily increase my faith.  Paul said in 2 Corinthians 3 that the unconverted or baptized people would not be able to read BLACK text on BROWN paper when it was PREACHED once a week by being READ in the assembly.

FAITH, GRACE or Spirit are contrasted to The Law of Moses.  GRACE is:

Rom. 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Grace includes the DIVINE FAVOR of power.  The Gospel is GRACE because that is the JESUS DEFINED power to Salvation.  FAITH is not the gift without READING THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN FOR OUR LEARNING.  Maybe a wet noodle is able to dally around expecting to believe SOMETHING IT HAS NEVER HEARD.

The WORD, LIGHT, GRACE etc has been made visible and audible by Jesus Christ.  The WORD (regulative principle) became FLESH when Jesus spoke only what He heard from the Father.  In the same way

Titus 2:11 For the GRACE of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 TEACHING us that,
         DENYING (you act) ungodliness and worldly lusts,
         WE should live [Active Verb] soberly, righteously,
         and godly, in this present world; [Messianic age]
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope,
        and the glorious appearing of the great God
        and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us,
        that he might REDEEM us from all iniquity,  [justification]
        and PURIFY unto himself a peculiar people,
        ZEALOUS of good works.

1Pet. 5:10 But the God of all GRACE,
         who hath called us unto his eternal glory BY Christ Jesus,
         after that ye have suffered a while, make you PERFECT, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ:
         for IT is the power of God unto salvation to every one that BELIEVETH;
         to the Jew first, and also to the Greek

g4100. pisteuo, pist-yoo´-o; from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well-being to Christ): — believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

Faith is like CREDIT one gives that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God to fulfill the prophecies about Him and those prophecies define the REST from religion both inclusively and exclusively.

No one believes something they have not heard unless they are STRONGLY DELUDED for minimizing the WORD of God.

(http://www.piney.com/Isaiah.8.Word.Light.gif)

The Law and Testimony is NOT The Law of Moses which was GIVEN BECAUSE OF TRANSGRESSION to a people abandoned. to captivity and death.

Rev. 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
Rev. 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY.

Jesus defined holy scripture for the purpose of His Creation as a FAMILY as the PROPHETS and other prophecies in the Law OF Moses and the Psalms which spoke about Messiah.  He did not include the Scribe's Record of a CARNAL nation in the Prophets and Apostles as the EDUCATION material for BUILDING up His Assembly--a school of Christ.



Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Fri Oct 27, 2017 - 16:26:28
Titus 2:11 For the GRACE of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Nah, according to you and RB, the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared only to the elect.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Fri Oct 27, 2017 - 16:31:26
I'm coming back and prove that faith, which is the gift of God that saved us from sin and condemnation is speaking of CHRIST'S FAITH, not an act that came FROM US.
Greek grammar pretty much makes it impossible that the pronoun there refers to faith.  The two words are cased differently.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Alan on Fri Oct 27, 2017 - 17:35:34
Greek grammar pretty much makes it impossible that the pronoun there refers to faith.  The two words are cased differently.


I still believe "it" is referring to salvation, as a subject matter, but then again other than doing some papers in school and periodic bible studies, I know little of the Greek language and it's structure.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Fri Oct 27, 2017 - 17:40:16

I still believe "it" is referring to salvation, as a subject matter, but then again other than doing some papers in school and periodic bible studies, I know little of the Greek language and it's structure.
I made a case in an earlier post for it referring back to the word quickened in verse 5.  Where the rubber hits the road, that's the same thing as referring to salvation, since the quickening/resurrection in view is that of the regeneration.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Fri Oct 27, 2017 - 19:44:23
Ehesians 2 has a verse one. This shows FROM WHAT WE ARE MADE SAFE.  Regneration or a new birth and Paul writes the same things to all of the churches.  In 2:8  the word SAVED means MADE SAFE or KEPT SAFE.  Those who were already saved or Regenerated with a new, holy spirit COULD fall from grace but they are KEPT save by Grace (which teaching) and THROUGH faith or faithfulness.

Pistos (B), ē, on, (peithō to be OBEDIENT):
2. obedient, loyal, “tēn tōn Athēnaiōn khōran oikeian kai p. poiēsasthai” X.HG2.4.30.
3. faithful, believing, Act.Ap.16.1, IG3.3435.
C. Adv. pistōs with good faith, “mē p. katamarturētheis” Antipho 2.4.7 ; loyally, D.3.26 : Comp. -oterōs Aen.Tact.22.17.

Believeth Not which cause one to be damned is:

Apistos    I. Pass., not to be trusted, and so:1. of persons and their acts, not trusty, faithless untrustworthy, groundless confidence, Th.1.120; shifty, unreliable, Pl.Lg.775d.
II. Act., mistrustful, incredulous, suspicious, “thumos de toi aien a.” Od.14.150; “ōta . . apistotera ophthalmōn” less credulous, Hdt.1.8; a. pros Philippon distrustful towards him, D.19.27; a. ei . . sautō you do not believe what you say yourself,
b. in NT, unbelieving, 1 Ep.Cor.6.6, al.
2. disobedient, disloyal,  III. Adv. apistōs:
1. Pass., beyond belief, “a. epi to muthōdes eknenikēkota” Th. 1.21; 
2. Act., distrustfully, suspiciously, Th.3.83; “a. tina diatheinai” D.20.22.
b. treacherously, Ph.1.516.

(http://www.piney.com/Ephesians2.Rom6.gif)


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Sat Oct 28, 2017 - 03:33:46
RB: you daily increase my faith. 
Kenneth, that's a good thing, but you have a very strange way of explaining just how I'm doing so. I have read your post, and you still are talking about
Quote from: Kenneth Sublett
FAITH is not the gift without READING THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN FOR OUR LEARNING.  Maybe a wet noodle is able to dally around expecting to believe SOMETHING IT HAS NEVER HEARD.
and with much verbiage other statements that's foreign to the subject at hand.
Quote from: 4WD
Nah, according to you and RB, the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared only to the elect.
Show me a phrase that Kenneth made that allows you to make this statement. He's in your camp, a fellow soldier~ he just has a different way of saying the same thing that you believe in. Do not throw this baby out with the dirty bathwater that you both take a bath in! ::smile::
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Sat Oct 28, 2017 - 03:58:54
I made a case in an earlier post for it referring back to the word quickened in verse 5.  Where the rubber hits the road, that's the same thing as referring to salvation, since the quickening/resurrection in view is that of the regeneration.
We may not be far apart when it's all said and done,  some we will but not as far as it may seem.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh
Greek grammar pretty much makes it impossible that the pronoun there refers to faith.  The two words are cased differently.
With much respect to you and your gifted talents that you do have, I must respectfully disagree, that the Greek is needed to come unto the knowledge of the truth. What is needed above knowing the Greek is this:
Quote from: Paul
Ephesians 1:16-18~"Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,"
My dear brother, nowhere in the scriptures do we read of Christ, or his apostles going forth and telling anyone that knowing the original langauge of the OT was important in coming to the true understanding of what they had before them called the word of God. They took the scriptures preserved for them and boldly preach the word of God to others, trusting just what Paul prayed for the saints at Ephesus, which as we quoted above:
Quote from: Paul
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation
Truth is NOT found in so-called Greek language, but in the scriptures given to us by God. Brother NO MAN has seen the original epistles written by the apostles and neither do we need them....and besides, we have them, and BY FAITH we truly believe this to be so.

One more thought~most of God's children are the poor and unlearned of this world, NOT the mighty and noble and wise~ knowing this, we trust our God that he has preserved for us his word according to Psalm 12 and we truly believe he has, and we allow others to try to convince men that they are wise by knowing something they truly do not know, since the original are all long gone. 

Now, who has the spirit of wisdom and revelation/understanding given by God that will allow them to come unto the knowledge of his truth? We truly pray this for all sincere children of God.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Sat Oct 28, 2017 - 06:40:42
Show me a phrase that Kenneth made that allows you to make this statement. He's in your camp, a fellow soldier~ he just has a different way of saying the same thing that you believe in.
I am not going to search for all of them now, but he has made a couple of statements that suggest that unless one has been, as he puts it, given a holy spirit, one is incapable of understanding the word of God.  He said in Reply @88:
Quote
Paul said in 2 Corinthians 3 that the unconverted or baptized people would not be able to read BLACK text on BROWN paper when it was PREACHED once a week by being READ in the assembly.
But that is part and parcel to Calvin's election.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Sat Oct 28, 2017 - 07:04:56
With much respect to you and your gifted talents that you do have, I must respectfully disagree, that the Greek is needed to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
RB, the Greek is needed by someone to even give you an English translation.  Unless you can show that there is one translation that has been translated by the Holy Spirit Himself or at least translated by one with the miraculous gift of translation given by the Holy Spirit the Greek is indeed needed to come unto the knowledge of the truth; but without it you would have to learn Greek and Hebrew to even be able to read the Bible.
Quote
What is needed above knowing the Greek is this:  My dear brother, nowhere in the scriptures do we read of Christ, or his apostles going forth and telling anyone that knowing the original langauge of the OT was important in coming to the true understanding of what they had before them called the word of God.
It is well known that Paul often used the LXX when quoting the OT.  And also I believe the whole purpose of the miraculous gift by the Holy Spirit of the speaking in tongues was to supplant the need for knowing the original language of either the Greek spoken in NT times or the Hebrew of the OT.
Quote
Truth is NOT found in so-called Greek language, but in the scriptures given to us by God. Brother NO MAN has seen the original epistles written by the apostles and neither do we need them....and besides, we have them, and BY FAITH we truly believe this to be so.
I do believe that what we have as manuscripts upon which the NT Scriptures are based are almost all in Greek.  You have continually dismissed any scholarship of language in understanding what was written.
Quote
One more thought~most of God's children are the poor and unlearned of this world, NOT the mighty and noble and wise~ knowing this, we trust our God that he has preserved for us his word according to Psalm 12 and we truly believe he has, and we allow others to try to convince men that they are wise by knowing something they truly do not know, since the original are all long gone. 
I apologize up front here, but that is really a very strange idea at the very best.  Do you believe that to be true for  the Bibles that are translated into German, or Spanish, or Chinese, or Japanese, or Arabic, or any of the other hundreds and hundreds of languages?  Or is that just for the English KJV which you insist is the "right"one?.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Sat Oct 28, 2017 - 07:34:45
Do you believe that to be true for  the Bibles that are translated into German, or Spanish, or Chinese, or Japanese, or Arabic, or any of the other hundreds and hundreds of languages?  Or is that just for the English KJV which you insist is the "right"one?.
They all have them in their own tongue. Example: I have read behind many men from many different tongues than English~ and they all use their own language to teach from, and when I read what they are quoting from their scriptures, their quotes were perfectly in line with my English Bible! Calvin was a from France; Luthern from Germany; Augustine was from northern Africa, etc. YET, their scripture quotes were just as my English scriptures.

At the moment I'm watching SLB~Jimmy Swaggart's station, and I just heard them say that they were sending many bibles to a third world group of very poor people~now, my point for mentioning this is that these poor souls could never in a hundred years have access to the so-called Greek, etc. so, my question to you is this: "Do you believe that since they are limited in resources, and maybe even in mental ability, is it possible for them to come ever come unto the knowledge of the truth WITHOUT such means, with only having the scriptures in their tongues?" You say no, I say yes they can! The key is Ephesians 1:17,18! The RCC would say IMPOSSIBLE, I would say that a unlearned boy plowing behind an old mule could easier than the most educated "holy father" in that cult.
 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Sat Oct 28, 2017 - 07:38:28
I'm coming back and prove that faith, which is the gift of God that saved us from sin and condemnation is speaking of CHRIST'S FAITH, not an act that came FROM US.

So, Paul used "faith" in Ephesians 2:8 "as a metonym for Christ", Now that being said I must come back and prove it, and I shall for the context without question will prove this to be so. Later...
RB, I have on numerous times pointed out to you that the phrase "faith of Christ" which appears in the KJV is a mistranslation and a misinterpretation. The idea of Christ having or needing faith is an oxymoron.  It simply makes no sense.  If you think otherwise then please describe for me what you think is meant by the KJV for the following:

Rom 3:3  For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Obviously, there also the KJV is simply a very poor and improper interpretation.  In this case it is speaking not about God's faith but about God's "faithulness" (see nearly all other translations except the KJV).   In all cases where the KJV uses the phrase "faith of Christ" (Gal 2:16 and Php 3:9) it does so incorrectly.  It should be interpreted as "faith in Christ". And in both cases it is speaking of the faith of the believer in Christ, not the faith of Christ.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Sat Oct 28, 2017 - 07:43:56
RB, I have on numerous times pointed out to you that the phrase "faith of Christ" which appears in the KJV is a mistranslation and a misinterpretation. The idea of Christ having or needing faith is an oxymoron.  It simply makes no sense. 
Well now, just hold now for a while and we shall indeed consider those scriptures dealing with the faith OF Christ since I said that faith in Ephesians 2:8 is "as a metonym for Christ".  Later....
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Sat Oct 28, 2017 - 07:50:04
They all have them in their own tongue. Example: I have read behind many men from many different tongues than English~ and they all use their own language to teach from, and when I read what they are quoting from their scriptures, their quotes were perfectly in line with my English Bible! Calvin was a from France; Luthern from Germany; Augustine was from northern Africa, etc. YET, their scripture quotes were just as my English scriptures.

At the moment I'm watching SLB~Jimmy Swaggart's station, and I just heard them say that they were sending many bibles to a third world group of very poor people~now, my point for mentioning this is that these poor souls could never in a hundred years have access to the so-called Greek, etc. so, my question to you is this: "Do you believe that since they are limited in resources, and maybe even in mental ability, is it possible for them to come ever come unto the knowledge of the truth WITHOUT such means, with only having the scriptures in their tongues?" You say no, I say yes they can! The key is Ephesians 1:17,18! The RCC would say IMPOSSIBLE, I would say that a unlearned boy plowing behind an old mule could easier than the most educated "holy father" in that cult.

Mat 28:18  And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19  Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20  teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Rom 10:13  For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Rom 10:14  How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Rom 10:15  And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"
Rom 10:16  But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?"
Rom 10:17  So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.


It is our job, our commission, the command given to us, to do everything we can to teach what the apostles taught.  Mistakes will be made, but we should not make those mistakes knowingly.  Relying on an incorrect and improper translation of even one sentence is a mistake.  That is why the scholarship of language is so important.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Sat Oct 28, 2017 - 14:26:34
Quote
2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

I know: Scripture makes us tired but 2 Peter has a verse 2

2Pet. 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ,
        to them that have obtained like precious faith
        with us through the righteousness of God
        and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2Pet. 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you
         through the KNOWLEDGE of God,
         and of Jesus our Lord,
2Pet. 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness,
        through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pet. 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises:
        that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature,
        having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Salvation has no meaning unless we know  FROM WHAT we are KEPT SAFE.

2Pet. 1:13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle,
        To stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
2Pet. 1:14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
2Pet. 1:15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.
2Pet. 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly DEVISED FABLES [Jewish Fables]
        when we made KNOWN unto you
        the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2Pet. 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory,
        when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory,
        This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
2Pet. 1:18 And this VOICE which came from heaven we HEARD, when we were with him in the holy mount.

    Luke 24:44 And he said unto them,
            These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you,
            that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
    Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

    Jesus opens our understanding by TEACHING:

    Luke 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is WRITTE, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
    Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
    Luke 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.   
    Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you:
         but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Jesus was given the EVANGELISTIC OFFICE as Holy Spirit when He was changed to be "another" Comforter in another form

Peter left us a MEMORY of the Certified PROPHETS and prophecies.  This was the way that Jesus BESTOWED FAITH.

2Pet. 1:19 We have also a more sure WORD of prophecy;
        whereunto ye do well that ye TAKE HEED

        as unto a LIGHT that shineth in a dark place,
        until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
2Pet. 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any PRIVATE INTERPRETATION

Private or PERSONAL interpretation which means FURTHER EXPOUNDING which would despise the Holy Spirit of God. Self Interpretation is EPILUSIS and would include the works of Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites.  In Ezekiel 33 that would exclude performing preachers for hire, singers or instrument players: these would be signs that no one intends to SPPEAK the WORD or OBEY it

2Pet. 1:21 For the PROPHECY came not in old time by the WILL of man:
        but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

AND THINGS HAVE NOT CHANGED: why should we worry if the STAFF does not TEACH that which HAS BEEN TAUGHT if God GIVES FAITH without HEARING THE WORD?

2Pet. 2:1  But there were false prophets also among the people,
        even as there shall be false teachers among you, [Why worry if Peter thought that faith was a supernatural GIFT?]
        who privily shall bring in damnable heresies,
        even denying the Lord that bought them,
        and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pet. 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways;
        by reason of whom the way of TRUTH (the WORD) shall be evil spoken of.
2Pet. 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words
        make merchandise of you:
        whose judgment now of a long time lingereth
        not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

HO, every one that thirsteth,
        come ye to the waters,
        and he that hath no money;
        come ye, buy, and eat; yea,
        come, buy wine and milk WITHOUT MONEY
        and WITHOUT PRICE. Isa 55:1
2 Cor. 2:17 For we are not as many,
        which CORRUPT the word of God: [why worry about that if they SELL LEARNING AT RETAIL.]
        but as of sincerity, but as OF God,
        in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Sat Oct 28, 2017 - 15:46:40
Ken, 2 Peter 1:20 is a statement about the author not the reader. That is confirmed by the very next verse.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 05:02:46
Ken, 2 Peter 1:20 is a statement about the author not the reader. That is confirmed by the very next verse.
Agreed~but why burst his bubble, he was on a roll, not sure where he was going, but for sure he was attempting to be useful, which we should at least appreciate this coming from an elderly gentleman.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 05:44:00
Quote from: Paul
Ephesians 2:8,9~"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
The word Faith is used in different senses in the scriptures, and it is very important to understand this truth.

Sometimes by faith is meant knowledge.
Quote from: Peter
2nd Peter 1:1,2~“To them that have obtained like precious faith~ through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord.”
  And sometimes faith is used in reference to the doctrine of faith.
Quote from: Jude
Jude verse three~“That ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.”
So also for the profession of faith.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 1:8~“Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.”
So we read concerning Simon Magus~who was “in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity;” and whose heart was “not right in the sight of God,”...believed~See Acts 8:9-24. Also, by faith we are to understand the power by which we believe.
Quote from: Paul
2nd Thessalonians 1:11~ “Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power.”
Sometimes by the word faith, we are to understand Christ.
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 3:23~“But before faith (Christ) came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith (Christ) which should afterwards be revealed.
Again: See also Galatians chapter three, where ten times at least in this chapter, the word Faith IS put FOR Christ. Regardless what many may believe otherwise, Jesus Christ's faith/obedience/righteousness (which is impossible to separate one from the other, or to say anyone of them is not needed in order for Jesus to be the perfect sacrifice for our sins) that he had AS A MAN, is the ONLY MEANS of the sinners justification leagally before God's law.

Be patience we have ways to go before we settle in on Ephesians 2:8,9.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 06:45:46
Indeed, the Greek word "pistos" is used in several different ways.  And it is important to understand how it is being used.  A good place to start is Vine's NT word dictionary:

Faith

pistis (G4102), primarily, "firm persuasion," a conviction based upon hearing (akin to peitho, "to persuade"), is used in the NT always of "faith in God or Christ, or things spiritual."

The word is used of (a) trust, e.g., Rom_3:25 [see Note (4) below]; 1Co_2:5; 1Co_15:14, 1Co_15:17; 2Co_1:24; Gal_3:23 [see Note (5) below]; Phi_1:25; Phi_2:17; 1Th_3:2; 2Th_1:3; 2Th_3:2; (b) trust-worthiness, e.g., Mat_23:23; Rom_3:3, RV, "the faithfulness of God"; Gal_5:22 (RV, "faithfulness"); Tit_2:10, "fidelity"; (c) by metonymy, what is believed, the contents of belief, the "faith," Act_6:7; Act_14:22; Gal_1:23; Gal_3:25 [contrast Gal_3:23, under (a)]; Gal_6:10; Phi_1:27; 1Th_3:10; Jud_1:3, Jud_1:20 (and perhaps 2Th_3:2); (d) a ground for "faith," an assurance, Act_17:31 (not as in KJV, marg., "offered faith"); (e) a pledge of fidelity, plighted "faith," 1Ti_5:12.

The main elements in "faith" in its relation to the invisible God, as distinct from "faith" in man, are especially brought out in the use of this noun and the corresponding verb, pisteuo; they are (1) a firm conviction, producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation or truth, e.g., 2Th_2:11-12; (2) a personal surrender to Him, Joh_1:12; (3) a conduct inspired by such surrender, 2Co_5:7. Prominence is given to one or other of these elements according to the context. All this stands in contrast to belief in its purely natural exercise, which consists of an opinion held in good "faith" without necessary reference to its proof. The object of Abraham's "faith" was not God's promise (that was the occasion of its exercise); his "faith" rested on God Himself, Rom_4:17, Rom_4:20-21. See ASSURANCE, BELIEF, FAITHFULNESS, FIDELITY.

Notes: (1) In Heb_10:23, elpis, "hope," is mistranslated "faith" in the KJV (RV, "hope"). (2) In Act_6:8 the most authentic mss. have charis, "grace," RV, for pistis, "faith." (3) In Rom_3:3, RV, apistia, is rendered "want of faith," for KJV, "unbelief" (so translated elsewhere). See UNBELIEF. The verb apisteo in that verse is rendered "were without faith," RV, for KJV, "did not believe." (4) In Rom_3:25, the KJV wrongly links "faith" with "in His blood," as if "faith" is reposed in the blood (i.e., the death) of Christ; the en is instrumental; "faith" rests in the living Person; hence the RV rightly puts a comma after "through faith," and renders the next phrase "by His blood," which is to be connected with "a propitiation." Christ became a propitiation through His blood (i.e., His death in expiatory sacrifice for sin). (5) In Gal_3:23, though the article stands before "faith" in the original, "faith" is here to be taken as under (a) above, and as in Gal_3:22, and not as under (c), "the faith"; the article is simply that of renewed mention. (6) For the difference between the teaching of Paul and that of James, on "faith" and works, see Notes on Galatians, by Hogg and Vine, pp. 117-119.


While it is important to recognize and understand how the word "pistis" is used,  it is also important to recognize and understand that it is never used in a substitutionary sense to mean "Christ" or anything else.  Your every attempt to use it in a substitutionary sense  is unnecessary since it makes complete sense use in its direct sense as presented above.  The only reason for doing so is that you are trying to change the meaning of the passage and trying to discount God's reliance on the individual himself in His "election" of that individual.  In other words, doing what you are trying to do is a direct attempt at eisigesis instead of exogesis.  You are changing the meaning of the passage under consideration in order to make it agree with your theology. 

Take your first attempt, namely, 2 Peter 1:1-2:

2Pe 1:1  Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2Pe 1:2  Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,


Faith in verse 1 does not mean knowledge. The word "faith" is not a substitution for the word knowledge; it is not used in a substitutionary sense for the word "knowledge".  Rather it shows that our faith comes THROUGH the knowledge we acquire about God.  This is in complete harmony with Paul's statement in Romans 10 that faith comes from hearing about Christ.  We gain our faith through hearing or reading about Christ in the written word.  It is the reason that we have the OT for instance.  It provides the necessary information, background, and basis to believe what we have been told in the NT. 

The word "faith" in Ephesians 2:8 means faith, our faith, not Christ, not Christ's faith.  We are saved by grace through [our] faith [in Jesus Christ]; and it [being saved by grace through faith] is a gift of God.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 10:38:38
2Pe 1:1  Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2Pe 1:2  Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,


Faith in verse 1 does not mean knowledge. The word "faith" is not a substitution for the word knowledge; it is not used in a substitutionary sense for the word "knowledge".  Rather it shows that our faith comes THROUGH the knowledge we acquire about God.  This is in complete harmony with Paul's statement in Romans 10 that faith comes from hearing about Christ.  We gain our faith through hearing or reading about Christ in the written word.  It is the reason that we have the OT for instance.  It provides the necessary information, background, and basis to believe what we have been told in the NT.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

4WD, what do you understand of "obtained" here?

Strong's Concordance
lagchanó: to obtain by lot
Original Word: λαγχάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: lagchanó
Phonetic Spelling: (lang-khan'-o)
Short Definition: I obtain by lot, cast lots
Definition: (a) I obtain (receive) by lot, my lot (turn) is, (b) I draw lots.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2975: λαγχάνω

λαγχάνω: 2 aorist ἔλαχον;
1. to obtain by lot (from Homer down): with the genitive of the thing, Luke 1:9 (cf. Buttmann, 269 (231); Winers Grammar, 319 (299)); to receive by divine allotment, obtain: τί, Acts 1:17; 2 Peter 1:1; on the construction of this verb with the genitive and accusative of the thing, see Matthiae, § 328; Winers Grammar, 200 (188); (cf. Buttmann, § 132, 8).

2. to cast lots, determine by lot (Isocrates, p. 144 b.; Diodorus 4, 63 (cf. ps.-Demosthenes in middle, p. 510, 26)): περί τίνος, John 19:24.

The word "faith" in Ephesians 2:8 means faith, our faith, not Christ, not Christ's faith.  We are saved by grace through [our] faith [in Jesus Christ]; and it [being saved by grace through faith] is a gift of God.

"our" is obviously your addition. The word "faith" in Ephesians 2:8 means faith, without qualification of being ours nor Christ's.

Ephesians 2:5
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

The verse above is clear about salvation, that is, it is by grace. 

In verse 8-9, this is reiterated, that is, "For by grace you have been saved...". Although here, it says "through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." This tells us that salvation, which is by God's grace, is not of man nor is of works of the man. But that salvation is of God, the work of God which is God's gift, obviously to those who are saved and are being saved. That is why in verse 10 it says of them as God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, good works which  God prepared beforehand that they should walk in them. And God works out His salvation works through faith which He too is the author and the giver.

The grace of the salvation of God spoken in verse 8 is described first in verse 1 "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins" and again in verse 4-5 "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,  even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)".   
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 11:31:38
God through the Spirit OF MESSIAH refuted the sacrificial system and defined the future REST of Messiah to exclude any of the ceremonial legalism you are selling or buying this morning. Corrupting the WORD, Logos or Regulative principle EXCLUDES self-authored songs or sermons and SELLING LEARNING AT RETAIL.

Jesus of Nazareth defined Holy Scriptures for HIS Creation of a FAMILY as the PROPHETS and other prophecies concerning MESSIAH.
Jesus FULFILLED the prophecies required to TERMINATE the Civil-Military-Clergy complex as Babylonianism, lying wonders or religious operations claiming God's Authority.

Jesus CERTIFIED the PROPHECIES with signs and wonders by God's HOLY SPIRIT.
The Apostles were Eye--and Ear Witnesses of these fulfilments.
Peter left a MEMORY which is the FINAL SPIRIT INTERPRETATION.
That FURTHER EXPOUNDING by Peter and others is OUTLAWED because those who speak ONLY THEIR OWN says Jesus are the Sons of the Devil.
That means that YOU are not CAPABLE of Further Expounding as sermonizing and versifying that which JESUS HAS EXPOUNDED and Peter simply LEFT A RECORD of that expounding.
Thereafter, anyone who as a PERSON goes beyond TEACHING THAT WHICH HAS BEEN TAUGHT IS A PRIVATE.

With NO DOUBT everyone heard the ACT of reading a verse or two and the IDIOS cracked jokes, gave private opinions, personal experiences then SAILED AWAY by explicating or MORALIZINGl which is ANTI-LOGOS or ANTI-CHRIST-TAUGHT.

g2398.  idios, id´-ee-os; of uncertain affinity; pertaining to self, i.e. one’s own; by implication, private or separate: — x his acquaintance, when they were alone, apart, aside, due, his (own, proper, several), home, (her, our, thine, your) own (business), private(-ly), proper, severally, their (own).

g2399.  idiotes, id-ee-o´-tace; from 2398; a private person, i.e. (by implication) an ignoramus (compare “idiot”): — ignorant, rude, unlearned.

Modern RULERS and audience are IGNORANT of the Word just as were those who murdered Jesus and anyone who simple SPOKE that which is written for our learning.

Now, I will stand in the gate waiting for someone to explain Private (idiot by definition) Interpretation.  Why would anyone try to say that PETER was ignorant because HE outlaws Private Interpretation for the WEE LITTLE PEOPLE who are NOT prophets or apostles even though they CLAIM the same power to HAVE FAITH in comflict to the Spirit's INTERPRETATION that FAITH comes by HEARING.  When people claim to hear voices or see visions don't drink their Koolaid not let them SELL YOU the FREE WATER OF THE WORD

http://www.piney.com/Isaiah.55.Word.Spirit.html


The Spirit OF Christ in the Prophets commanded the NOW FREE believers NOT to pay for the Free Water of the Word because God will send strong delusions proving that they CANNOT sell their IDIOS opinions.  In Isaiah 58 The Spirit OF Christ agreed with Peter and commanded you NOT to tarry when people try to sell you SEEKING HIS OWN PLEASURE or SPEAKING HIS OWN WORDS.

http://www.piney.com/Isaiah.58.html

I will post you an EXHAUSTIVE STUDY of the meaning of INTERPRETATION which no young Ph.d can explain HOWEVER MUCH he has been EXTORTED by those who SPEAK ON THEIR OWN and despise the SPIRIT Who has done ALL of the INTERPRETATION.  If then after 2000 years anyone has anything to sell you, don't buy it.


2Pet. 1:18 And this VOICE which came from heaven we HEARD, when we were with HIM in the holy mount.
2Pet. 1:19  We have also a more sure word of prophecy;
         whereunto YE do well that ye take heed,
         as unto a light that shineth in a dark place,
         until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

WHAT ARE YOU TO GIVE HEED TO AND NOT PRIVATE INTERPRET OR CORRUPT MEANING SELLING AT RETAIL.

2Pet. 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the SCRIPTURE is of any private interpretation.
2Pet. 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:
         but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

YOU should not Private Interpret or GO BEYOND THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN BECAUSE DISCIPLES WILL FIND YOU OUT

2Pet. 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people,
         even as there shall be false teachers among you,
         who privily shall bring in damnable heresies,
         even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pet. 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pet. 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time

I PRAY THAT YOU ARE NOT PURCHASING ANYTHING TODAY!

Denying the LORD is going beyond HIS PATTERN as the ONLY one to reveal the Father by NOT speaking His own Words whiich Jesus said would mark him of DOING what they had seen with their father whereas Jesus SPOKE what He Heard from HIS father.  Now, tell us if you can, who is SPEAKING to you. The only personified SPIRITUS is Apollon and famil.

When God's Spirit breathes you hear SOUNDS: Do you guys HEAR voices or SEE visions or do you use a ouija board

My cat speaks to me.


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 12:01:01
Quote
The grace of the salvation of God spoken in verse 8 is described first in verse 1 "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins" and again in verse 4-5 "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,  even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)".   

Col. 2:13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses

Heb. 6:1 Therefore [you] leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection;
           not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

There is danger that people who speak beyond that which is written for OUR LEARNING are still DEAD.  Baptism is obeying the FORM of the DEATH, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus.  Repentance is TURNING AWAY and becoming DEAD to our OWN transpasses and Sins. You have to DIE before you can be BURRIED and then given A new spirit or Regenerated and then RESURRECTED from the dead.

LET THE SPIRIT DO THE TALKING since we are WEE MEN just IDIOS.

Col. 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the BODY of the sins of the FLESH by the circumcision of Christ:

THEN, we bury YOUR dead body in water.

Col. 2:12 Buried with him in baptism,
           WHEREN also ye are risen with him through THE FAITH of the OPERATION of God,
           who hath raised him from the dead.

FAITH is sometimes compared to THE LAW.  THE FAITH is THE GOSPEL which is our POWER UNTO SALVATION. 

Heb. 11:6 But without [OUR] faith it is impossible to please him:
            for he that cometh to God must believe that he is,
            and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Everyone is HINDERED from being baptized---however wet--unless THEIR FAITH can confess that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God.  By common sense no one is going to EXPOSE themselves by CONFESSING something that is dangerous unless THEIR FAITH leads them to CONFESS and BE BAPTIZED to RISE FROM THE DEAD unless they STILL understand that having A holy spirit of A good conscience exposes them to RADICAL AND DANGEROUS BEING HATED AND DESPISED BY ALMOST ALL OF APOSTATE RELIGIONISTS who make a major industry (within and without) out of mocking and ejecting their DEAD members who are REBORN or REGENERATED or WASHED WITH WATER INTO THE SCHOOL OF CHRIST ONLY.

Baptism is a spiritually dangerous thing.  Only those who GLADLY ACCEPT HIS WORD are BAPTIZED and never debate it: this is the SEAL along with being ENLIVENED to be able to become a Christian, Disciple or STUDENT of Christ.  I doubt that you know anyone who in the teachings of ALL of Scripture and the Campbells went to the SCHOOL OF CHRIST where worship is READING and MUSING the word. 

Col. 2:13 And you, being dead in YOUR SINS and the uncircumcision of YOUR flesh,
            hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col. 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us,
            which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Jesus Shed His Blood on the CROSS as a means but also a TUPOS or a pattern INTENDED TO BE IMITATED. Baptism is where JESUS commanded that if WE receive His WORD (Logos excludes all you paid for today) which will IMPEL us to Baptism.  Jesus was Baptized to FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS.  Jesus was RIGHTEOUS in a Spiritual sense before God pronounced Him as a SON.  ONLY those who obeyed that TUPOS or as ANTI-TUPOS or INSTEAD OF CRUCIFIXION are we THEN FREE FROM SIN and are BORN AGAIN.

1Pet. 2:24 Who his own self bare OUR sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being DEAD TO sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 12:53:21
Michael, I hate to say it, but I believe you still do not understand what faith is or even much about faith.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 13:00:41
Michael, I hate to say it, but I believe you still do not understand what faith is or even much about faith.

Then perhaps you can start showing me what you think faith is by answering my questions regarding faith, such as that in Reply #107 on 2 Peter 1:1.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 15:01:42
Why bother.  It won't change anything.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 15:13:52
I will respond since at my age I have time to waste while watching Brady toss the ball.  I can also relax since my youngest child finally found someone she loves who HAS A JOB!

2Pet. 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Jesus was BAPTIZED to validate RIGHTEOUSNESS even though He was without sin.

How did they RECEIVE that FAITH?

2Pet. 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
2Pet. 1:3 According as his divine power
            hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness,
         through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pet. 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious PROMISES:
            that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature,
            having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pet. 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, ADD to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pet. 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pet. 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pet. 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound,
        they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful
        in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pet. 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off,
        and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pet. 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren,
        GIVE DILIGENCE to make your calling and election sure:

MANY or most are CALLED or invited but FEW are chosen to be OF THE ELECT added to the EKKLECIA.
        for if ye DO these things, ye shall never fall: [If you DON'T DO these things you WILL FALL]
2Pet. 1:11 For so an entrance SHALL BE ministered unto you abundantly
       into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

TUIP fades because we CAN FALL.

In Ephesians 2 and elsewhere we are KEPT SAFE from that CROOKED RACE or VIPERS.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 20:24:26
Quote from: 4WD on Today at 12:53:21
Quote
Michael, I hate to say it, but I believe you still do not understand what faith is or even much about faith.

Michael...
Quote

Then perhaps you can start showing me what you think faith is by answering my questions regarding faith, such as that in Reply #107 on 2 Peter 1:1.

Why bother.  It won't change anything.

Seems 2 Peter 1:1 is a difficult verse for you. It was first asked of you in Reply#72, and asked again in Reply#107. Well, if you don't like to give your answer, we'll just have to take that as an avoidance, if not, an evasion. No problem.   

Have you changed as a person because you did or because God changed you?

Have you changed a person's conviction or is it God? 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 20:45:31
I will respond since at my age I have time to waste while watching Brady toss the ball.  I can also relax since my youngest child finally found someone she loves who HAS A JOB!

2Pet. 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Jesus was BAPTIZED to validate RIGHTEOUSNESS even though He was without sin.

How did they RECEIVE that FAITH?

2Pet. 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
2Pet. 1:3 According as his divine power
            hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness,
         through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pet. 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious PROMISES:
            that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature,
            having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pet. 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, ADD to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pet. 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pet. 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pet. 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound,
        they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful
        in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pet. 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off,
        and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pet. 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren,
        GIVE DILIGENCE to make your calling and election sure:

MANY or most are CALLED or invited but FEW are chosen to be OF THE ELECT added to the EKKLECIA.
        for if ye DO these things, ye shall never fall: [If you DON'T DO these things you WILL FALL]
2Pet. 1:11 For so an entrance SHALL BE ministered unto you abundantly
       into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

TUIP fades because we CAN FALL.

In Ephesians 2 and elsewhere we are KEPT SAFE from that CROOKED RACE or VIPERS.

Thank you for your response Ken. I know you have time to 'waste', as you put it, however, it will be nice if you first answer the question at hand, before anything else. So, let me run that again for you.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

What do you understand of "obtained" here?

Strong's Concordance
lagchanó: to obtain by lot
Original Word: λαγχάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: lagchanó
Phonetic Spelling: (lang-khan'-o)
Short Definition: I obtain by lot, cast lots
Definition: (a) I obtain (receive) by lot, my lot (turn) is, (b) I draw lots.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2975: λαγχάνω

λαγχάνω: 2 aorist ἔλαχον;
1. to obtain by lot (from Homer down): with the genitive of the thing, Luke 1:9 (cf. Buttmann, 269 (231); Winers Grammar, 319 (299)); to receive by divine allotment, obtain: τί, Acts 1:17; 2 Peter 1:1; on the construction of this verb with the genitive and accusative of the thing, see Matthiae, § 328; Winers Grammar, 200 (188); (cf. Buttmann, § 132, 8).

2. to cast lots, determine by lot (Isocrates, p. 144 b.; Diodorus 4, 63 (cf. ps.-Demosthenes in middle, p. 510, 26)): περί τίνος, John 19:24.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 21:10:40
Yes it is OBTAINED FROM GOD because FAITH comes from hearing and hearing from the WORD of God. One should not be an ingrate and refuse to let God show you HOW He is supplying your faith.  Otherwise no one hears from God but through VOICES or VISIONS.  There are several words for obtain

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a BONDSERVANT and APOSTLE of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith WITH US by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2Pet. 1:12 ¶ Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
2Pet. 1:13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
2Pet. 1:14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
2Pet. 1:15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.
2Pet. 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

The other apostles were GIFTED with Direct Teaching.  Others BY LOT: Matthias was chosen by LOT because there were several EQUALLY QUALIFIED. I doubt that I have faith equal to Peter.  Paul had to SEE and HEAR Jesus of Nazareth in His Holy Spirit FORM to become an Apostle "born after Apostle Season.

1Cor. 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Cor. 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

Matthew comes first to show that people's heart has WAXED gross proving that God didn't create thee junk.

Matt. 13:15 For this people’s heart is WAXED gross,
         And their ARE are dull of hearing, and their eyes THEY HAVE CLOSED;
         Lest at any time they should SEE with their eyes, and HEAR with their ears, and should UNDERSTAND with their heart,
         and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Why do you REJECT Jesus' definition of HOW people UNDERSTAND: Eyes and Ears are supernatural gifts: why despise them?

One should never, ever ACCUSE a Holy God of being worse than Hitler who could only burn your body.  That is one of those unforgivable since He has ALWAYS provided EVIDENCE to WINNOW the grain from the chaff.

John 12:34 The people answered him,
       We have HEARD out of the law that Christ abideth for ever:
        and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?
John 12:35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you.
        WALK while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you:
        for he that WALKETH in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.
John 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, THAT ye may be the children of light.
        These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
John 12:37 But though he had done so many MIRACLES before them, yet they believed not on him:
John 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake,
         Lord, who hath believed our report?
         and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
John 12:39 Therefore they could NOT believe, because that Esaias said again,
John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart;
            that they should not see with their eyes,
            nor understand with their heart,
            and be converted,  [at baptism]
            and I should heal them. [give a new REGENERATED heart]
John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him;
            but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
John 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.


John 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
John 12:46 I am come a LIGHT into the world,
         that whosoever believeth on me should NOT abide in darkness.
John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not:
         for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words,
        hath one that judgeth him:
        the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself;
       but the Father which sent me,
       he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is LIFE everlasting:
       whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

John 14:29 And now I have TOLD you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might BELIEVE.

John 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples,
      which are not WRITTEN in this BOOK:
John 20:31 But these are written,
       THAT
ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;
       and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Luke 7:29 And all the people that HEARD him, and the publicans, JUSTIFIED God, being BAPTIZED with the baptism of John.
Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers REJECTED the counsel of God against themselves, being NOT BAPTIZED

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: yogi bear on Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 21:39:57
How does one obtain faith??

The bible gives the only answer to that.

Romans 10:14-17 (ASV)
14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15  and how shall they preach, except they be sent? even as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that bring glad tidings of good things!
16  But they did not all hearken to the glad tidings. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17  So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Does faith come from God?

Yes God sent out the faith to all.

Matthew 28:18-20 (ASV)
18  And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.
19  Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:
20  teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

Romans 1:16-17 (ASV)
16  For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17  For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

So how does God give man faith?
Romans 10:17 (KJV)
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 22:00:55
You have to DIE before you can be BURRIED and then given A new spirit or Regenerated and then RESURRECTED from the dead.

What was the believer before he became a believer? Yes, he was an unbeliever, which by nature, is among the children of wrath. n Ephesians 2, Paul says of the unbelievers as ones who walk according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, conducts themselves in the lusts of their flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath. These, Paul calls as those "who were dead in trespasses and sins". Now Paul in Ephesians 2 :1,5 tells the saints who are in Ephesus of what God have done, that God have made them alive, alive together with Christ, that is, God saved them, and that by grace. And when did God do that? It was even when they were dead in trespasses. 

There was no need for the dead to die, for they are already dead. If there be anything that can be done to one who is dead in trespasses, that will be, to be made alive.   

 

 

 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 23:02:50
Yes it is OBTAINED FROM GOD because FAITH comes from hearing and hearing from the WORD of God.

The word "obtain" in 2 Peter 1:1, in the Greek (lagchanó), means to receive by divine allotment, do you agree? So, faith clearly there, is something that comes from God, that which man is but to receive of it ~ it is grace from God. And elsewhere Paul said that it comes to the man by hearing, hearing the word of God.   

There are several words for obtain.

1Cor. 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Cor. 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

The word "obtain" in 1 Cor 9:24 is not the same as that in 2 Pet. 1:1. Here, the Greek word is:

Strong's Concordance
katalambanó: to lay hold of, seize
Original Word: καταλαμβάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katalambanó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-al-am-ban'-o)
Short Definition: I seize tight hold of, overtake, comprehend
Definition: (a) I seize tight hold of, arrest, catch, capture, appropriate, (b) I overtake, (c) mid. aor: I perceived, comprehended.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2638: καταλαμβάνω

καταλαμβάνω: 2 aorist κατέλαβον; perfect infinitive κατειληφέναι; passive, perfect 3 person singular κατείληπται (John 8:4 as given in L T Tr WH text), perfect participle κατειλημμένος; 1 aorist κατειληφθην (John 8:4 Rst bez elz G) (on the augment cf. Winer's Grammar, § 12, 6), and κατελήφθην (Philippians 3:12 R G), and κατελήμφθην (ibid. L T Tr WH; on the mu μ' see under the word Mu); middle, present καταλαμβάνομαι; 2 aorist κατελαβόμην; cf. Kühner, i., p. 856; (Veitch, under the word λαμβάνω); the Sept. for הִשִּׂיג, לָכַד, also for מָצָא, etc.; (from Homer down); to lay hold of; i. e.:
1. to lay hold of so as to make one's own, to obtain, attain to: with the accusative of the thing; the prize of victory, 1 Corinthians 9:24; Philippians 3:12f; τήν δικαιοσύνην, Romans 9:30; equivalent to to make one's own, to take into oneself, appropriate: ἡ σκοτία αὐτό (i. e. τό φῶς) οὐ κατέλαβεν, John 1:5.

Also, the word "obtain" in 1Cor. 9:25 is not the same as that in 2 Pet. 1:1. Here, the Greek word is:

Strong's Concordance
lambanó: to take, receive
Original Word: λαμβάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: lambanó
Phonetic Spelling: (lam-ban'-o)
Short Definition: I receive, take
Definition: (a) I receive, get, (b) I take, lay hold of.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 23:36:22
Peter was speaking of the APOSTLES who WERE appointed or selected by lot from EQUALLY QUALIFIED candidates who were witnesses of the resurrected lord: THEY received the faith from SIGHT.  They were eye-- and ear-- witnesses. They left a Memory for we who are not apostles. We cannot do anything but believe it and speak it.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a BONDSERVANT and APOSTLE of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained LIKE precious faith WITH US by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

The Righteousness of Christ did not give you FAITH which would make EVERYONE have faith.

Peter  promised to leave US a record so that we LESSER THAN APOSTLES can receive faith by reading.

2Pet. 1:12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in REMEMBRANCE of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
2Pet. 1:13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
2Pet. 1:14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
2Pet. 1:15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.
2Pet. 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty

WE are not apostles or eye witnesses and we were not SELECTED by Jesus to make HIS TEACHINGS know through WRITING.

Col. 4:16 And when this epistle is READ among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.
Col. 4:17 And say to Archippus, Take heed to the ministry which thou hast RECEIVED IN THE LORD, that thou fulfil it.

Mark 5:36 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.
Mark 16:11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that HEAR;
         then cometh the devil, and taketh away the WORD out of their hearts,
         LEST they should believe and be saved.
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they HEAR, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.
John 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have HEARD him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
John 9:35  Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Acts 4:4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 04:20:17
Thank you for your response Ken. I know you have time to 'waste', as you put it, however, it will be nice if you first answer the question at hand, before anything else. So, let me run that again for you.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

What do you understand of "obtained" here?
You asked for it now go and try to figure out exactly what the Kenneth is trying to set forth~a word of advice....I trust that you have time to waste like Kenneth does for you will need a lot in order to figure him out.  He means well, no doubt, but my oh my, is he ever confused. I would like to blame his age, but I'm not so sure of that. 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 05:28:19
How does one obtain faith?? The bible gives the only answer to that.
Yes the word of God does indeed give us the answer to that question. But in a completely different sense than you and others teach it. You and others only want to see one side of the truth, and by refusing to see the others side, it leaves one believing a lie and embracing another gospel. Please do not be offended with this statement, for of a truth one of us are believing in a lie and embracing another gospel, either you or me, and I have no problem with any person who is worth his salt preaching this truth. We BOTH cannot be following the truth, one of us are in serious error and fall under Paul's curse from Galatians one, and in all sincerity, I DO WANT TO KNOW IF THAT PERSON IS ME! So, Yogi put forth your best effort to prove that your gospel is Paul's gospel that he preached, for I certainly will attempt to do the same.
Quote from: yogi bear
So how does God give man faith? Romans 10:17 (KJV)  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
The scriptures are the source of information concerning all spiritual truths, and through them is where our faith comes from concerning God's testimony to us. So far, not much difference between our two positions~but the gap will soon increase. Your statement has a measure of truth, but FAR from THE TRUTH.

You and many others believe that the natural man, or the flesh apart from Divine power creating IN THEM a new man FIRST, can believe and have faith~this is where those who embrace another gospel other than the one that the holy apostles taught begins to show their true colors of having another gospel, other than the one given by God in his word.
Quote from: 2nd Peter 1:1-3~
"Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:"
"to them that have obtained like precious faith with us"~Those to whom Peter was writing to OBTAIN like precious faith that he had~a faith which is the faith of God's elect, the gift of his grace, and the operation of his power; these are NOT my opinions but that which Jesus Christ said to Peter:
Quote from: Jesus
Matthew 16:13-17~When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."
Flesh and blood CANNOT reveal TRUTHS of a good confession of WHOM Jesus truly is~but IT IS is a GIFT OBTAIN BY GRACE, or Jesus himself is a false prophet, but we know that is not so. Those who believe that man APART from the grace of God can come to faith without it being FREELY given to him from the Father in heaven through His Spirit are in opposition to Jesus Christ and his apostle's teachings and that is not a good side to be on. 

This faith is said to be "precious", as it is in its own nature, being the faith that our Lord had given to his seed.
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 2:20~"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
The ONLY reason why I have faith and live the life of faith is because of the FAITH that Christ purchased for me in the HIS FLESH. If this is not so, then Galatians 2:20 makes no sense whatsoever. Now, someone is thinking, why is not your faith perfect as Jesus' was? The life of faith I live is mixed with sin because I still live in a body OF SIN and DEATH. When it is said that the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God means that we have been quickened to life on the behalf of the life of Jesus Christ's perfect faith/obedience/righteousness, and this new creation IN US enables us to live the life of faith, and this life of faith is nourished and increase THROUGH THE SCRIPTURES, per Romans 10:17

Peter said they had obtained, not by their own merits or industry, but by the grace of God; for faith is not of a man's self, it is the gift of God, and the produce of his grace and power for Peter added...

"through the righteousness of God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ"~by "righteousness" here, cannot be meant the goodness and mercy of God, as some think, though faith undoubtedly comes through that; nor the faithfulness of God making good his purpose and promise of giving faith to his elect, as others think: but the righteousness of Christ, which is not the righteousness of a creature, but of God; that is wrought out by one that is God, as well as man

Faith and righteousness are two distinct things; and that faith is not a man's righteousness before God, for it comes to him through Christ's righteousness; as also that righteousness is before faith, or otherwise faith could not come by it; and, moreover, is the cause and reason of it; faith has no causal influence upon righteousness, but righteousness has upon faith: the reason why a man has a justifying righteousness is not because he has faith; but the reason why he has faith given him is because he has a justifying righteousness provided for him, and imputed to him~Again:
Quote from: 2nd Peter 1:1-3~
"Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:"

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 05:32:42
Peter was speaking of the APOSTLES who WERE appointed or selected by lot from EQUALLY QUALIFIED candidates who were witnesses of the resurrected lord: THEY received the faith from SIGHT.  They were eye-- and ear-- witnesses. They left a Memory for we who are not apostles. We cannot do anything but believe it and speak it.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a BONDSERVANT and APOSTLE of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained LIKE precious faith WITH US by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

The Righteousness of Christ did not give you FAITH which would make EVERYONE have faith.

Simon Peter wrote, and wrote to those whom He said have OBTAINED or received faith. "With us" he says, which could refer to the rest of the apostles or even all the Christians. Nonetheless, Peter was referring to every Christian to whom he writes to, as having obtained like faith as all the apostles and the other Christians. This, in relation to the point of this discussion on faith, clearly speaks of faith as given by God, and obtained by the Christian. And relative to this, Peter said that the Christians obtained it "by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ."

If you believe that the righteousness of Jesus Christ did not give you FAITH, that clearly go against what Peter said in the verse. The NIV makes this clear, "To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours." Peter says this referring to the apostles and the believers in Christ, and obviously not all men. 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 07:46:03
How does one obtain faith??

The bible gives the only answer to that.

Romans 10:14-17 (ASV)
14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15  and how shall they preach, except they be sent? even as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that bring glad tidings of good things!
16  But they did not all hearken to the glad tidings. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17  So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Does faith come from God?

Yes God sent out the faith to all.

Matthew 28:18-20 (ASV)
18  And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.
19  Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:
20  teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

Romans 1:16-17 (ASV)
16  For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17  For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

So how does God give man faith?
Romans 10:17 (KJV)
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


Does faith come from God?

As have been shown in 2 Peter 1:1, faith have been obtained or received by those to whom Peter writes to, from God.

So how does God give man faith?

And you are right in saying that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by or through the word of God. The first part of the verse says "by hearing" which implies that one is able to hear the voice of one speaking. In this case, the speaker is God. Faith then only comes to one who is able to hear the voice of God, what God says to him. For not all can hear God. Those who do not belong to God do not hear what God says. But those who belong to God, they hear what God says (John 8:7). It is to them that faith comes and obtains it. Now, the second part of Romans 10:17 says "hearing by or through the word of God". In the days of Jesus and in the days of the apostles, including Paul, this is by or through the hearing of the words of Jesus and to the preaching of the apostles. But in our day, this tells us that we can hear the voice of God and Him speaking, through His words which He inspired to be written in the Holy Scriptures.         

But before that, it must be remembered that it is by or through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ that the Christian have obtained faith (2 Peter 1:1). Also, the Christian has been granted, on behalf of Christ, to believe in (have faith in) Him, which we can understand in Phil. 1:29. So, we learn that faith is attributed to the grace of God. It is not in any way shape or form attributed to the believer or any work, deed, act or doing of the believer.

It is the grace of God that brings salvation.

Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God!
 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 08:18:02
So how does God give man faith?

And you are right in saying that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by or through the word of God. The first part of the verse says "by hearing" which implies that one is able to hear the voice of one speaking. In this case, the speaker is God. Faith then only comes to one who is able to hear the voice of God, what God says to him. For not all can hear God. Those who do not belong to God do not hear what God says. But those who belong to God, they hear what God says (John 8:7). It is to them that faith comes and obtains it.
Do you belong to God?  Are you able to hear?  Have you been given that faith?  Prove it.  Obviously your just saying so isn't any proof at all.  Anyone could say so.  So again, prove it.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 08:43:14
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 07:46:03
So how does God give man faith?

And you are right in saying that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by or through the word of God. The first part of the verse says "by hearing" which implies that one is able to hear the voice of one speaking. In this case, the speaker is God. Faith then only comes to one who is able to hear the voice of God, what God says to him. For not all can hear God. Those who do not belong to God do not hear what God says. But those who belong to God, they hear what God says (John 8:7). It is to them that faith comes and obtains it.


Do you belong to God?  Are you able to hear?  Have you been given that faith?  Prove it.  Obviously your just saying so isn't any proof at all.  Anyone could say so.  So again, prove it.

In faith, Yes to all your questions. How about you, Do you belong to God?  Are you able to hear?

Now, if you are not in agreement with what I've posted, you are free to try to refute it.   
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 08:55:27
In faith, Yes to all your questions. How about you, Do you belong to God?  Are you able to hear?
You really expect me to believe that just because you say so?  Seriously? 
Quote
Now, if you are not in agreement with what I've posted, you are free to try to refute it.   
I don't have to refute it.  All I have to do is question it.  If you can't prove that you are special and received the ability to hear God, why should I believe anything you say about God, about who He is and what He has done?
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 09:25:58
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 08:43:14
Quote
In faith, Yes to all your questions. How about you, Do you belong to God?  Are you able to hear?
You really expect me to believe that just because you say so?  Seriously?

4WD, I am not asking you to believe me. If there is anything I ask of you is first, to address the post objectively and answer the questions before you, and second, to believe what God says in scriptures. Why do you go personal, instead of just dealing with the post by refuting it if you think it is false?

Quote
Now, if you are not in agreement with what I've posted, you are free to try to refute it.   
I don't have to refute it.  All I have to do is question it.  If you can't prove that you are special and received the ability to hear God, why should I believe anything you say about God, about who He is and what He has done?

Then don't refute it, by all means. And to question, it is your right to do that. And if you have the right to question my person, if I belong to God or not, if I can hear what God says or not in scriptures, if I have been given faith or not, I too have the right to do so. But I don't do that to you nor anyone here because such is not called for in a forum such as this. And such will not really get us to act kindly and lovingly, but get us to be talking about ourselves instead of God and the godly topic at hand.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 09:36:08
You really expect me to believe that just because you say so?  Seriously?

4WD, I am not asking you to believe me. If there is anything I ask of you is first, to address the post objectively and answer the questions before you, and second, to believe what God says in scriptures. Why do you go personal, instead of just dealing with the post by refuting it if you think it is false?
I don't have to refute it.  All I have to do is question it.  If you can't prove that you are special and received the ability to hear God, why should I believe anything you say about God, about who He is and what He has done?


Then don't refute it, by all means. And to question, it is your right to do that. And if you have the right to question my person, if I belong to God or not, if I can hear what God says or not in scriptures, if I have been given faith or not, I too have the right to do so. But I don't do that to you nor anyone here because such is not called for in a forum such as this. And such will not really get us to act kindly and lovingly, but get us to be talking about ourselves instead of God and the godly topic at hand.

If all of what you say comes from this special faith that you have; but you can't document, or prove that you have that special faith, why should I give you even a second thought about your view of things?

The thing is Michael in so much of what you have said, you are dangerously close to the TULIP brand of theology.  Implicit in that, whether or not any TULIP adherent will say so openly, is that if you disagree with them then you can't be saved.  Because according to that TULIP theology, if you have been saved, then you are no longer a "natural" man, but instead a "spiritual" man and receive knowledge directly from the Spirit.  And as such the Spirit can't give two different people two different "sets" of knowledge.  Therefore if you disagree, then you must still be a "natural" man, hence an unregenerate man and hence unsaved.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 09:57:29
RB.
Quote
Thank you for your response Ken. I know you have time to 'waste', as you put it, however, it will be nice if you first answer the question at hand, before anything else. So, let me run that again for you.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

I explained that ONCE proving that Peter was CHOSEN as a witness to leave us a MEMORY because WE were not CHOSEN TO BE AN APOSTLE.

What do you understand of "obtained" here?

JESUS PICKED THE APOSTLES WHO HAD NOT KNOWN QUALIFICATIONS AS SCHOLARS.

2Pet. 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an APOSTLE of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained LIKE precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

IF YOU READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER YOU WILL KNOW THAT Jesus made the PROPHECIES CONCERNING HIM More Certain.  Jesus picked men to EXECUTE His Last Will and Testament as eye-- and ear-- WITNESSES.
Men like Peter left his PART of the PERFECT WILL as our MEMORY.  He Warned that Private Interpretation or Further Expounding would mark FALSE TEACHERS

2Pet. 1:20 Knowing this first, that no PROPHECY of the SCRIPTURE is of any PRIVATE INTERPRETATION

2Pet. 2:1  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be FALSE TEACHERS among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Eph. 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Therefore, if you think that Jesus SPEAKS to give you FAITH, that will FORCE you to speak in isolated verses and disparage the WHOLE Record of Peter revealed VISUALLY AND AUDIBLY as a CHOSEN APOSTLE.

Now, I love to write and speak to myself so be patient with an older person who was baptized in 1942 but didn't learn how to read BLACK text on BROWN Paper until retirement in 1979.

1Pet. 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things,
               as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pet. 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pet. 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world,
        but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pet. 1:21 Who BY HIM BELIEVE in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory;
            THAT your FAITH and hope might be in God.
1Pet. 1:22 Seeing ye have PURIFYING your souls in OBEYING the TRUTH through the Spirit
        unto unfeigned love of the brethren,
        see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

    John 6:63 It is the SPIRIT that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the WORDS that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are LIFE.

    Jesus probably was ignorant that people could receive SPIRIT and LIFE without the WORD, Logos or regulative princip.e

1Pet. 1:23 Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible SEED, but of incorruptible,
           by the WORD of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

        John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
                Except a man be born again, he cannot SEE the kingdom of God.
        John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

    John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
             Except a man be born of WATER and of the SPIRIT, he cannot ENTERED into the kingdom of God.
    John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be BORN AGAIN.

1Pet. 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass.
        The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
1Pet. 1:25 But the WORD of the Lord endureth for ever.
        And this is the WORD which by the gospel is PREACHED unto you.

THOSE WHO BELIEVED THE GOSPEL AND WERE BAPTIZED:

1Pet. 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
1Pet. 2:2 As NEWBORN BABES
        desire the sincere milk of the WORD,
        THAT ye may GROW thereby:

    Eph. 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief CORNER STONE.

1Pet. 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
1Pet. 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a LIVING STONE, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pet. 2:5 Ye also, as LIVELY STONES, are built up a spiritual house,
        an holy priesthood, to offer up SPIRITUAL sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pet. 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture,
        Behold, I lay in Sion a chief CORNER STONE, elect, precious:
        and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pet. 2:7 Unto you therefore which BELIEVE he is precious:
        but unto them which be DISOBEDIENT, the stone which the builders disallowed,
        the same is made the head of the corner,

    Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and  PREACH the gospel to every creature.
    Mark 16:16 He that  BELIEVETH AND is baptized shall be saved;
            but he that  BELIEVETH NOT shall be damned.

1Pet. 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
1Pet. 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pet. 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1Pet. 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.


1Pet. 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder,  and a WITNESS of the SUFFERING of Christ, and also a PARTAKER of the glory that shall be revealed:

Jesus PICKED the Apostles bur not from Rabinic University.
They were the SIMPLE to which God speaks but He HIDES from the Wise or Sophists: trained speakers, singers, instrument players, actors.

THEY simply left US a Memory which WE cannot private interpret or FURTHER EXPOUND because that would repudiate the Spirit of God Which speaks ONLY through Jesus His Son who does NOT speak anything the Father has not revealed to Him. He was hated and murdered and He left a MARK for those who Speak ONLY what He commanded to teach who will ALSO be hated and never picked as a SENIOR PASTOR or as the Reformer says, SET A KING OVER US.  God gave the KINGS in His Anger
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 10:57:21
If all of what you say comes from this special faith that you have; but you can't document, or prove that you have that special faith, why should I give you even a second thought about your view of things?

The thing is Michael in so much of what you have said, you are dangerously close to the TULIP brand of theology.  Implicit in that, whether or not any TULIP adherent will say so openly, is that if you disagree with them then you can't be saved.  Because according to that TULIP theology, if you have been saved, then you are no longer a "natural" man, but instead a "spiritual" man and receive knowledge directly from the Spirit.  And as such the Spirit can't give two different people two different "sets" of knowledge.  Therefore if you disagree, then you must still be a "natural" man, hence an unregenerate man and hence unsaved.


What special faith are you talking about? I said nothing of a special faith 4WD. What faith I am talking about is the faith spoken of by Peter in 2 Peter 1:1 for which the Christians received or obtained from God, which you have not even tried to refute. Here it is again:

2 Peter 1:1(NIV)
1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

2 Peter 1:1 (NKJV)
1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

What do you understand of "obtained" here?

Strong's Concordance
lagchanó: to obtain by lot
Original Word: λαγχάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: lagchanó
Phonetic Spelling: (lang-khan'-o)
Short Definition: I obtain by lot, cast lots
Definition: (a) I obtain (receive) by lot, my lot (turn) is, (b) I draw lots.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2975: λαγχάνω

λαγχάνω: 2 aorist ἔλαχον;
1. to obtain by lot (from Homer down): with the genitive of the thing, Luke 1:9 (cf. Buttmann, 269 (231); Winers Grammar, 319 (299)); to receive by divine allotment, obtain: τί, Acts 1:17; 2 Peter 1:1; on the construction of this verb with the genitive and accusative of the thing, see Matthiae, § 328; Winers Grammar, 200 (188); (cf. Buttmann, § 132, 8).

Now with regards TULIP, forget about that. Instead of being bothered by it, drop it and focus on what the scriptures says. Now if you want to deal with TULIP, perhaps you may well start another thread on that.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Alan on Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 11:21:29
You guys sure can complicate very simple things.  ::whistle::
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 11:44:09
Many writers explained this mystery which is hidden from those who do not love the truth.  MANY or most are CALLED or invited.  However FEW are SELECTED but not by GAMBLING.

sortiti 1. To share, divide, distribute: “pariter laborem Sortiti,” shared the labor, Verg. A. 8, 445: “vices,” id. ib. 3, 634: “periculum,” id. ib. 9, 174.—
2.To choose, select: “subolem armento sortire quot annis,” Verg. G. 3, 71: “fortunam (i.e. locum) oculis,” id. A. 12, 920: “matrimonium,” Just. 26, 3, 8.—
3. gen., to obtain, receive a thing (mostly in the tempp. perff.; not ante-Aug.):

lagkhanō , fut.  etc.: generally, obtain as one's portion,

Plat. Rep. [617e] No divinity shall cast lots for you, but you shall choose your own deity. Let him to whom falls the first lot first select a life to which he shall cleave of necessity. But virtue has no master over her,2 and each shall have more or less of her as he honors her or does her despite. The blame is his who chooses: God is blameless.3“’ So saying, the prophet flung the lots out among them all, and each took up the lot that fell by his side, except himself; him they did not permit.4 And whoever took up a lot saw plainly what number he had drawn.

Arnobius, Adversus gentes, ii. 64, says that similarly Christ offers us redemption but does not force it upon us.
3 Justin Martyr.Apol. xliv. 8, quotes this.

Matt. 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
Matt. 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
Matt. 22:3 And SENT FORTH his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
Matt. 22:4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

The INVITATION was cast to ALL but:

Matt. 22:5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
Matt. 22:6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
Matt. 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
Matt. 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
Matt. 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
Matt. 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
Matt. 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
Matt. 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Matt. 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt. 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

The Wedding garment is to be CLOTHED WITH CHRIST available only at BAPTISM: Jesus cast the 'Lots' but he does not PICK THEM UP

TRUE EVANGELISTS cast out the SEED but it is up to the SOIL as to whether they intend to SPROUT.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 12:24:17
What special faith are you talking about?
You gotta be kidding !!  Just about everything you have posted with regard to faith puts it in a totally different realm from the meaning of "pistis" in Greek or "faith" or "belief" in English.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 23:45:40
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 10:57:21
Quote
What special faith are you talking about?
You gotta be kidding !!  Just about everything you have posted with regard to faith puts it in a totally different realm from the meaning of "pistis" in Greek or "faith" or "belief" in English.

Oh, so you call it 'special', the faith that I am talking about because you think it puts faith in a totally different realm from the meaning of "pistis" in Greek or "faith" or "belief" in English. And since you don't view faith as I have posted about here and in the "faith" thread, that to you then it is kind of special. But then, there is not really much difference I think in our view of faith 4WD. We both are taking faith in the context of scriptures. The thing is, I see faith as grace and coming from God, while you see it as produced and coming from you. This is why perhaps you consistently avoid even commenting on 2 Peter 1:1 which speaks of faith as having been obtained or received through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.     . 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Oct 30, 2017 - 23:56:16
Many writers explained this mystery which is hidden from those who do not love the truth.

Sir Ken, this statement of yours interests me. It speaks of people who you say do not love the truth. I have a few basic questions to ask of you regarding this, that perhaps you can give us your answer.

1. What is the truth?
2. Is the truth hidden to some and if so, why is that?
3. How does one know the truth?
4. Who are these people who do not love the truth?
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: NorrinRadd on Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 01:26:41
... This is why perhaps you consistently avoid even commenting on 2 Peter 1:1 which speaks of faith as having been obtained or received through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.     .

Almost every translation I've checked includes the article "a" before "faith."  To me, the context suggests the author is using "faith" as a stand-in for "salvation."  I perceive most of the passages that use the expression "the" faith that way also.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 03:20:06
Going back to the OP:

We discuss this verse often and many a different view comes from this verse. I would like to take a little time to try to get to what is meant by this verse.

What is meant by you are saved by grace?

Is grace an action that is done like coming to faith?

Is grace like repenting?

Is grace like a v waving of a magic won?

Grace is Gods plan to redeem man is it not?

Does it have conditions such as faith or repentance or confess Christ or even baptism in Christ name?

Could it be that God put in place a plan to save man even while we were yet dead in our sins and it involves all above  but the plan is grace because nothing we can do will ever make us fit fr righteousness with out Gods plan to redeem?

We need to understand just what saved by grace is according to the biblical meaning and not of our personal view.


Sir Yogi, I'll try to give my answer to the questions as simple as I can.

What is meant by you are saved by grace?

It means that you are saved, not because you kind of deserve to be saved for whatever reason. It means that you are saved by one who is able to save you, that is, God, purely out of His sovereign will and out of His loving kindness and unmerited favor, for whatever reason He may have in saving you.

Is grace an action that is done like coming to faith?

Grace is not an action. So, it definitely and could not be something done like coming to faith. In relation to salvation, it is good-will, loving-kindness, unmerited and undeserved favor given by and coming from God, out of His sovereign will for whatever reason He may have in giving it.

Is grace like repenting?

No. See above related answer.

Is grace like a v waving of a magic won?

No. See above related answer. Grace has to do with God's sovereign will and purpose.   

Grace is Gods plan to redeem man is it not?

No. Again see above related answer on what grace is. In addition, grace is not some plan of salvation or what. For one, grace is a spiritual blessing that comes forth from God, which speaks of the goodness of God, that certainly produce and brings forth nothing but which is good. 

Does it have conditions such as faith or repentance or confess Christ or even baptism in Christ name?

None. As I have pointed out, grace is the goodness of God and comes from God. One's believing, repenting, confessing, being baptized, doing good works, etc., are an entirely different matter from the grace of God. Such things are of no consequence if not for the grace of God. Those things are the consequence of God's grace of the salvation of mankind.     

Could it be that God put in place a plan to save man even while we were yet dead in our sins and it involves all above  but the plan is grace because nothing we can do will ever make us fit fr righteousness with out Gods plan to redeem?

I don't know. Only God knows. What I do know is that which is revealed to us by God in scriptures with regards the salvation of man. First is that, God created Adam, the father of mankind, who disobeyed God and sinned. Consequently, Adam have brought death to reign over him, and so became a slave to sin. Death and sin obviously has power over Adam and so then to all of Adam's offspring, that is, mankind. Such power, mankind has not the power to defeat and free himself from. Man is unable to save himself from the power of sin and death. The second is that, God have revealed that He will save mankind. And that is the grace of God. And some 2000+ years ago, the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. He is no other than the Lord Jesus Christ, the SAVIOR. He have defeated sin by being sinless. He have defeated death by His resurrection from the dead. It is obvious then, that whoever are in the Lord Jesus Christ's keeping, are delivered/saved from the power and reign of sin and death, and even, will have the power to be able to be victorious over sin, even in this life, even while we are yet to be delivered out from this weak and sinful flesh which is the body of death.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 03:49:08
The thing is Michael in so much of what you have said, you are dangerously close to the TULIP brand of theology.
4WD, it is people like you that in the religious community are guilty of religious branding or stigmatizing others more so to turn others against the truth, and or, to keep people from considering the ones that they are putting down, and the ones that pose a threat to their position, in light of God's truth~this method branding God's children have worked on the simple-minded, self-contented, deceived professors of the twenty-first century. Why do you feel you need to call people who embrace grace over man's works as embracing TULIP brand of theology, and that theology being dangerous? Why not just take the word of God and let the scriptures expose a person's position as false and dangerous, being another gospel? It is because you men can not do so.
Quote from: 4WD
  Implicit in that, whether or not any TULIP adherent will say so openly, is that if you disagree with them then you can't be saved.
That's not so, 4WD, not so. Of course, God has children in error for we all are to a certain degree. If one is a believer, then he's a child of God, our knowledge is NO litmus test of being born of God~FAITH IS which worketh by LOVE. 
Quote from: 4WD
Because according to that TULIP theology, if you have been saved, then you are no longer a "natural" man, but instead a "spiritual" man and receive knowledge directly from the Spirit.  And as such the Spirit can't give two different people two different "sets" of knowledge. 
4WD, we are BOTH and will be both until death and the resurrection day!
Quote from: 4WD
Therefore if you disagree, then you must still be a "natural" man, hence an unregenerate man and hence unsaved.
ONLY prideful men think that way, and if they do, then they NEED to yet be saved from that ignorance , even though they still may very well be born of God~after all, the holy apostles went through stages of conversion from that prideful state as well~did they not.?!
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 03:57:58
Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 23:45:40
Quote
... This is why perhaps you consistently avoid even commenting on 2 Peter 1:1 which speaks of faith as having been obtained or received through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.     .

Almost every translation I've checked includes the article "a" before "faith."  To me, the context suggests the author is using "faith" as a stand-in for "salvation."  I perceive most of the passages that use the expression "the" faith that way also.

I think I could agree with that, though I take it to be what it is, that is, faith. Nonetheless, If you take it to be "salvation", the point in Ephesians 2, that we are saved by grace, and that this is not from ourselves, but is of God, remains. Now, if we try to think deep about what that means, we can't escape the fact that salvation is of God, that it is the work of God, that it is God who will bring this about, that it is God who will accomplish this salvation, that salvation rest & depend on God and to no one else nor to anything else. To think that we somehow have anything to do with our salvation, is I think nothing but pride. Amazingly, we find such people say of their salvation "To God be the glory!" And they say that even while they take away some of the glory for themselves by saying that they have been saved because of this and that, and what they have done. Wow...

So, if we now understand what it means that salvation is of God, and that, salvation is by grace, I leave this question:

What then are the matters of repentance, faith, baptism, good works, etc.?
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 04:30:55
Now, I love to write and speak to myself so be patient with an older person who was baptized in 1942 but didn't learn how to read BLACK text on BROWN Paper until retirement in 1979.
Since you were baptized in 1942, were you an infant, baptized into the RCC? My friend, I would be more than happy to show patience toward you. You quoted many scriptures, so, allow me to see if you are understanding what you are quoting, I have my doubts, Kenneth. But, before I say anything, I will say this, that you seem to love God and his word, that is a good thing, knowledge is as I said above is NOT a true litmus test of those born of God~the true test is FAITH in Jesus Christ, which worketh by LOVE toward others, especially toward those who disagree with your understanding of the scriptures and those who speak hard things concerning you and your faith.

Now you quoted these wonderful scriptures:
Quote from: The apostle Peter
1st Peter 1:18-25~"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."
My brother, I would love for you, 4WD, Yogi bear, and any other give their interpretation of these scriptures given by Peter. I am convinced that you cannot do so. A good lawyer would never ask a question that he did not know the answer to, now would he?

Allow me to get this started (btw, it will flow right into Ephesians 2:8,9 wait and see) When Peter said......
Quote
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever
The true biblical sense and ONLY sense that will flow with ALL scriptures is this: We are born again ACCORDING TO THE testimony of the word of God; or, according to the WITNESS of the word of God, or, according to God's record! Paul and John both said these words:
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 2:1~"And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
And John said these words:
Quote from: John
1st John 5:6-13~"This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."
The word of God give to us HIS RECORD, or declares to us HOW we are born of God! It is NOT the means, but ONLY a witness, testimony, and record, source of information of spiritual truths that we WOULD NOT otherwise know. Those who believe God's witness are giving PROOF that they have been born of God by his grace freely given through Jesus Christ's perfect faith/righteousness/ obedience!
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 07:06:26
*





Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 07:45:54
Those who believe God's witness are giving PROOF that they have been born of God by his grace freely given through Jesus Christ's perfect faith/righteousness/ obedience!
A couple of questions, RB. 

(1) Do you think Satan and all his angels believe God's witness?  I do.

(2) Does that mean Satan has been born of God?  Definitely not.

Therefore I think your statement here is seriously flawed.  Being born again, i.e., regeneration, is not something that happens to a person based solely upon the counsel of God's own will, some for glory and others for damnation as you present. It is by grace through faith, faith being the response of the person to the testimony of God Himself in His written word.   It is through faith.  Faith is a condition upon which regeneration [being born again] depends. (See my post above re: faith)
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 11:46:54
Do you think Satan and all his angels believe God's witness?  I do.

I don't.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 13:22:18
Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 23:45:40
Quote
Oh, so you call it 'special', the faith that I am talking about because you think it puts faith in a totally different realm from the meaning of "pistis" in Greek or "faith" or "belief" in English.
Yes.  you reject the meaning of the word "faith" or "belief", attaching to it a different meaning which you have decided fits better what you like.

As I said, the faith I am talking about is the faith spoken of in Scriptures, such as that spoken of in:

Hebrews 11:1 (NKJV)
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 Peter 1:1(NKJV)
1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 12:8-10(NKJV)
8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

Quote
And since you don't view faith as I have posted about here and in the "faith" thread, that to you then it is kind of special. But then, there is not really much difference I think in our view of faith 4WD. We both are taking faith in the context of scriptures. The thing is, I see faith as grace and coming from God, while you see it as produced and coming from you. This is why perhaps you consistently avoid even commenting on 2 Peter 1:1 which speaks of faith as having been obtained or received through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.

No, you don't view faith as the Bible uses the word.  I don't usually do this for several reasons, but in this case I think it is worth the effort.  The following is taken directly from  The Faith Once For All: Bible Doctrine For Today, by Jack Cottrell, published by College Press Publishing Company, Inc.

The primary condition for receiving (and retaining) God’s saving grace always has been and continues to be faith. This was clearly stated as early as Abraham: “Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness” (Gen 15:6). It is also affirmed in other OT texts (2 Chr 20:20; Jonah 3:5; Hab 2:4). That salvation is still conditioned upon faith is stressed in the NT especially by John (1:12; 3:15-18,36; 6:47; 20:31) and by Paul. When the jailer at Philippi asked Paul and Silas, “‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’” they replied, “‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved’” (Acts 16:30-31). The very theme of Romans is that “a man is justified by faith apart from works of law” (3:28; see also 1:16-17; 3:22,25; 5:1-2; 10:9-10). Abraham (as in Gen 15:6) is cited as the continuing paradigm of justification by faith (Rom 4:1-25; see Gal 3:1-14). See also 1 Cor 1:21; Gal 2:16; 3:26; Eph 2:8; 3:17; Phil 3:9.

The basic NT words for faith are the noun pistos and the verb pisteuo. When these words are used to represent faith as a condition for salvation, they have two main connotations, each of which is a necessary aspect of the total concept of saving faith.

The first aspect of saving faith is usually called assent (sometimes, belief). Assent is an act of the mind, a judgment of the intellect that a particular idea or statement is true. Not all statements accepted as true are matters of faith; some we know to be true by personal experience or by logical reasoning. Technically speaking, the ideas that we accept by faith (assent) are those that enter our consciousness via the testimony of other people. This applies to all ideas accepted on the authority of someone else’s testimony, whether religious or secular. It is a frequent element of everyday life, from newspapers to casual conversation (“How was your day?” “It was fine.”) As an aspect of saving faith it means assenting to the truth of Christ’s own testimony concerning himself as recorded in Scripture, as well as to the truth of the testimony of the apostles and prophets who bear witness to Christ through the biblical writings (Eph 2:20). We believe the testimony is true, even in the absence of firsthand experience (2 Cor 5:7; Heb. 11:1).

Though we call ideas accepted via testimony faith (i.e., assent) and ideas received via experience or reason knowledge, this does not mean that ideas accepted through faith have no solid, rational foundation. Some have the seriously mistaken notion that faith comes into the picture only when we have run out of any rational evidence for accepting something as true, asin the following assertions: “Faith takes over where reason leaves off.” Christian faith requires “rational self-immolation.” “Faith is an illogical belief in the improbable.” One must make a “leap of faith” or have “blind faith.” “Faith is believing what you know ain’t true.” “Faith is belief in something without adequate evidence or proof.” “When you have faith in something, you are not using reason.”

Such ideas are completely false. In reality, in matters of faith, the subjective conviction that a particular testimony is true is based on the sufficiency of objective evidence. We accept another’s testimony about something only if we have good reason to do so. Where Christian faith is concerned, we accept others’ testimony concerning our Savior and our salvation because this testimony is verified as true by corroborating corroborating evidence, as analyzed and presented by Christian apologetics.

In biblical terminology the assent aspect of faith is represented by the phrase “believe that” (pisteuo hoti), i.e., believing with the mind that various statements and claims are true. Hebrews 11:6 says that we must believe that God exists and that He rewards those who seek him. Jesus said those who do not believe that he is who he claims to be will die in their sins (John 8:24). Jesus exhorts Philip to believe that he is in the Father, and the Father is in him (John 14:10-11). John wrote his Gospel so that we may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (John 20:31; see 11:27). Those who believe that God raised Jesus from the dead will be saved (Rom 10:9). This assent aspect is also represented in such concepts as believing Jesus’ words (John 5:47), believing all things written in the law and prophets (Acts 24:14), believing the gospel (Mark 1:15), and believing the truth (2 Thess 2:12-13).

The fact that faith includes this aspect of assent accounts for the NT use of the word faith in the sense of the body of doctrine which is believed or accepted as true, i.e., “the faith.” In this sense one can be “obedient to the faith” (Acts 6:7), be “sound in the faith” (Titus 1:13), “contend earnestly for the faith” (Jude 3; see Phil 1:27), have “unity of the faith” (Eph 4:13), and go “astray from the faith” (1 Tim 6:21).

The second aspect of saving faith is usually called trust. Whereas assent is a judgment of the mind regarding the truth of a statement, trust is a decision of the will to act upon the truth assented to. It is a personal surrender to the implications and consequences of this truth. Such trust is most often directed toward persons. To trust a person is to surrender ourselves or something in our power to that person, as when we place our health and life in the hands of a doctor, or our children into the care of a baby-sitter, or our country into the hands of a particular presidential candidate.

The faith that is a condition for salvation includes such trust, specifically, a decision of the will to surrender everything about ourselves—our time, our possessions, our abilities, our life itself, and our eternal destiny—into the hands of Jesus Christ. Trust is the decision to rest our hope of eternal life upon the saving power of Christ’s cross and resurrection. It is the decision to say, with Paul, “I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day” (2 Tim 1:12).

The biblical concept of trust is represented by the same Greek words as assent (pistis, pisteuo), but by a different kind of phrasing. Assent is believing “that” (hoti) the gospel facts are true; trust is believing “in” (eis) or believing “on” (epi) the person and work of Jesus Christ himself. “Whoever believes in [eis] Him shall not perish, but have eternal life” (John 3:16). “Everyone who believes in [eis] Him receives forgiveness of sins” (Acts 10:43). “‘Believe in [epi] the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved’” (Acts 16:31). We “believe in [epi] Him for eternal life” (1 Tim 1:16).

In the OT era the faith that saved included both assent and trust, i.e., believing that God is truly a gracious God and that his promise to forgive sins is sincere, and believing in or on him as one’s personal Savior. In the NT era saving faith must be directed specifically to Jesus Christ, as we both assent to and trust in the saving power of his death and resurrection (Rom 3:25; 10:9). Assent alone does not meet this condition for salvation. Even demons believe that the God of the Bible is the true God (Jas 2:19) and that Jesus is his Son (Mark 1:24; 5:7). Thus it is incorrect to define faith simply as “belief in testimony,” or even “belief that Jesus died for your sins.” Such assent is necessary, but by itself it is incomplete and insufficient. It is a necessary first step, but it must be followed by a decision of the will to surrender oneself to the mercy and lordship of Jesus Christ.

Cottrell has a lot more to say about this subject, but this will suffice to show you where you have missed the boat on the biblical concept of faith.

Cottrell may well has a lot more to say, but I'm sorry to say that we don't quite have the same view of the salvation of God, at least based on your post. And so perhaps this is why we also have a different view of what scriptures says of faith. For this purpose, let me give you a sense of my view of the salvation of God. I have posted this in my reply to some in this thread and so I'll just quote them.

In post #138:
Quote
First is that, God created Adam, the father of mankind, who disobeyed God and sinned. Consequently, Adam have brought death to reign over him, and so became a slave to sin. Death and sin obviously has power over Adam and so then to all of Adam's offspring, that is, mankind. Such power, mankind has not the power to defeat and free himself from. Man is unable to save himself from the power of sin and death. The second is that, God have revealed that He will save mankind. And that is the grace of God. And some 2000+ years ago, the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. He is no other than the Lord Jesus Christ, the SAVIOR. He have defeated sin by being sinless. He have defeated death by His resurrection from the dead. It is obvious then, that whoever are in the Lord Jesus Christ's keeping, are delivered/saved from the power and reign of sin and death, and even, will have the power to be able to be victorious over sin, even in this life, even while we are yet to be delivered out from this weak and sinful flesh which is the body of death.

In post #140:
Quote
...the point in Ephesians 2, that we are saved by grace, and that this is not from ourselves, but is of God, remains. Now, if we try to think deep about what that means, we can't escape the fact that salvation is of God, that it is the work of God, that it is God who will bring this about, that it is God who will accomplish this salvation, that salvation rest & depend on God and to no one else nor to anything else. To think that we somehow have anything to do with our salvation, is I think nothing but pride. Amazingly, we find such people say of their salvation "To God be the glory!" And they say that even while they take away some of the glory for themselves by saying that they have been saved because of this and that, and what they have done. Wow...

So, if we now understand what it means that salvation is of God, and that, salvation is by grace, I leave this question:

What then are the matters of repentance, faith, baptism, good works, etc.?

Perhaps you can comment on those in red.

Cottrell, in talking about faith, said "Even demons believe that the God of the Bible is the true God (Jas 2:19)". It gives me the impression that he is saying that demons have faith, though he may say that such faith is not what he says is saving faith. Nonetheless, it remains to be faith for that matter, isn't it? In James 2:19, it says that the demons too believe that there is one God, as we do. Does that mean that demons have faith? I'd say NO. This verse clearly tells us what faith is not in the sense of believing. Clearly then faith is more than belief. What it is exactly can only be known in Jesus Christ. And I'd guess that you don't understand what I meant by that at all.   
 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 14:38:19


As I said, the faith I am talking about is the faith spoken of in Scriptures, such as that spoken of in:

Hebrews 11:1 (NKJV)
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 Peter 1:1(NKJV)
1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 12:8-10(NKJV)
8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
Well first off, there is nothing in Hebrews 11:1 or 2 Peter 1:1 that is contrary to anything that I posted from Cottrell.  Second, the faith in 1 Corinthians 12:8 is a spiritual gift given to a few select believers, i.e., one who has already been saved by grace through faith.  If you do not understand that then you are even further from the truth than I have at first thought.  And by the way, since I am a cessationist, I believe all such miraculous spiritual gifts ceased with the last apostle of Christ.
Quote
Perhaps you can comment on those in red:

So, if we now understand what it means that salvation is of God, and that, salvation is by grace, I leave this question:

What then are the matters of repentance, faith, baptism, good works, etc.?

Of course.  Salvation is by grace as stated again and again;  faith repentance, baptism are conditions upon which God has presented to receive the gift of salvation by grace; of those faith is of course the preeminent condition.  Works is not a condition upon which salvation is to be received, but it is a criterion upon which we shall all be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ [the Bema].
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 16:06:25
If one has a HOLY spirit or A good conscience or consciousness: they will be Disciple of Christ and knows better to try to find how BAPTISM SAVES because out of the curse of the Monarchy

JESUS SAID AND NO ONE SHOULD TRY TO TRUMP HIMM

Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Matt. 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

1Pet. 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

The word BELIEVETH means to COMPLY and be Baptized FOR the remission]

Faith in any context other as being the opposite of THE LAW OF MUSES must become active and obey whatever is commanded.  Abraham was justified BECAUSE He kept God's laws and decrees.

1Cor. 12:8 For to ONE is given by the Spirit [MIND]the WORD of wisdom;
          to ANOTHER the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Cor. 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Cor. 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

People tend to believe that they were--are PROPHETS able to teach the WORD knowledge to be able to teach the Word by inspiration.  If you have ONE able to SPEAK the Word you don't need ANTHER ONE.  Peter says that thee Prophecies were made more certain and the Apostles as eye- and ear-- witnesses left US a MEMORY.

Quote
]Hab. 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by HIS faith.

Hab. 2:2 And the Lord answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon TABLES, that he may run that READETH it.
Hab. 2:3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall SPEAK, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry

Jack Cottrell just quotes of text books and will not or cannot read THE REST OF THE STORY.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Tue Oct 31, 2017 - 16:56:10
Jack Cottrell just quotes of text books and will not or cannot read THE REST OF THE STORY.
I have no idea what you are referring to with "THE REST OF THE STORY". But Kenneth, if you think that he just "quotes from text books" then perhaps that explains why so many of your posts seem little more than the ramblings of a very confused person; some truth but mostly gibberish  Perhaps all those demonic musical instruments have you a little rattled.

I will suggest that your interpretation of the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38 is one indication of that.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 04:46:40
Yes.  you reject the meaning of the word "faith" or "belief", attaching to it a different meaning which you have decided fits better what you like.No, you don't view faith as the Bible uses the word.  I don't usually do this for several reasons, but in this case I think it is worth the effort.  The following is taken directly from  The Faith Once For All: Bible Doctrine For Today, by Jack Cottrell, published by College Press Publishing Company, Inc. ...

Cottrell has a lot more to say about this subject, but this will suffice to show you where you have missed the boat on the biblical concept of faith.
So many errors in this short essay on faith by Mr. Cottrell. I glanced over some of his work before posting this, so I know more where he's coming from. It's all about "time", but I'm thinking about refuting some of his perverted use of scriptures, yet not knowing if it would serve very much purpose, so I'm still considering. I will only add a point for now, he said:
Quote from: Jack Cottrell
Thus it is incorrect to define faith simply as “belief in testimony,” or even “belief that Jesus died for your sins.” Such assent is necessary, but by itself it is incomplete and insufficient. It is a necessary first step, but it must be followed by a decision of the will to surrender oneself to the mercy and lordship of Jesus Christ.
While I AGREE that true faith is MORE than just an belief in testimony, and that WORKS DO FOLLOW wherever there's faith, YET, the MAIN argument is NOT over these points, but by WHOSE FAITH/OBEDIENCE/RIGHTEOUSNESS are the ONLY grounds for one to be legally justified in God's sight! Sir, THIS IS where the battle rages, not over the definition of what constitutes true faith itself!

Mr. Cottrell articles would be easy to refuted on many fronts, no problem. The poor man does not know how to interpret this wonderful scripture~he started out by saying:
Quote from: Jack Cottrell
The primary condition for receiving (and retaining) God’s saving grace always has been and continues to be faith. This was clearly stated as early as Abraham: “Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness” (Gen 15:6).
Would you like for me to give the proper sense of this scripture and others like it, maybe this would save me much labor and time?  He certainly does not know how Moses used this scripture, yet Paul did in Galatians three, and btw, so did David! Need help?
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 06:25:27
So many errors in this short essay on faith by Mr. Cottrell.

A couple of things here.  First, one of the things that I like about Dr. Cottrell's work is that in those areas of contention within the Christian community he presents all or most of the competing concepts or interpretations and then proceeds to argue for the correct or proper one. 

Second, it is interesting and pertinent to the discussion that he obtained his MDIV degree from Westminster Theological Seminary.  As you probably know, Westminster is a Presbyterian and Reformed Christian graduate educational institution.  Therefore he is well versed in the very concepts that you espouse.  He described to some of us one day his experiences at Westminster.  On exams he would often present the answers that he knew were to be expected and then would proceed to give his own [the correct] answers to those same questions.

I am a bit indebted to him because he was about the first person to get me to begin really looking at the Reformed Theology teaching, its good side and its bad side.

So no, RB, I really wouldn't care for your sense of this scripture and others like it.  I already know your sense and reject it because, quite simply, it is based on a false premise [actually more than one false premise]. 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 08:21:30
I already know your sense and reject it because, quite simply, it is based on a false premise [actually more than one false premise].
I'm convinced that you do not know, for I have never (maybe I have, but certainly not very often) giving the biblical sense of Genesis 15:6. That's okay if you are contented not knowing, yet, I would if someone else asked for it that sincerely wanted to compare their understanding with another believer who may differ from them.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 08:44:37
RB, I can read how those such as Clark or Gill or Sproul interpret such passages.  I would not expect yours to be very much different.  I reject theirs because as I said, they are based upon a false premise(s).  And yours is based upon the same false premise(s).
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 09:54:53
RB, I can read how those such as Clark or Gill or Sproul interpret such passages.  I would not expect yours to be very much different.
I never have read behind Sproul; Adam Clark (assuming that's who you meant) very, very little other than his position on the Sonship of Jesus Christ, which I fully agree with. Concerning Gill I have a lot behind Gill and I'm thankful for many things he teaches, yet I cannot remember off hand if I have ever read his position on faith as it is used concerning Abraham's faith, maybe I have, but will this afternoon, if time permits and then I should remember. He was a very gifted teacher. Mr. Sproul is a Calvinist, I am not, yet both are very close EXCEPT in relation to faith as it pertains to regeneration~yet, I am sure we would be close, yet not totally.
Quote from: 4WD
I reject theirs because as I said, they are based upon a false premise(s).  And yours is based upon the same false premise(s).
Sir, calling another position other than your own position a system built on "false premise(s)" means not one thing and certainly proves nothing! I can call the Mormons and other groups a false cult, but what does that prove UNLESS I can prove it with the word of God?

A thought for you to consider....Do you know why football teams (I did play sports in school) run trick plays? Because they know they can not beat the other team straight up, so they MUST rely on such plays hoping to gain advantage~so likewise, you quoted a long quote by Jack Cottrell hoping to help your weak position out, but like trick plays, they can come back and hurt more than they were worth! If time permits, then I will prove it.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 10:29:31
...... but like trick plays, they can come back and hurt more than they were worth! If time permits, then I will prove it.
But it is the premise(s) not the conclusion(s) that I maintain to be the problem.  So that whatever you try to (dis)prove will in fact center around the "trick play".  RB, among your trick plays is that regeneration precedes faith.   Thus, just about everything you have to say about faith starts with, or at least involves, that "trick play"; and as you say that simply backfires.  But, of course, you are free to run your trick plays.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 10:38:13
Barton W. Stones denied the atonement: he and A.Campbell has several exchanges of view Campbell. Calvinists must deny the Atonement or anything that Jesus did or said because that would interfere with Calvinism.  Cottrell  list 14 pages he used including Sproul .  His book on INSTRUMENTS displays the same "proof texts" and shows that  Theology (Study of Apollon) Doesn't need to use the ANTITHETICAL proof.

Jack Cottrell: The New Testament is similarly silent about a whole host of issues other than the musical instrument, and the churches of Christ argue among themselves as to whether they should be forbidden or not. Since the Bible is silent about Sunday school, some say it is prohibited; but others say it is OK.

The WORD or LOGOS is the Regulative Principle or Governing Principle.  God BREATHED and Jesus SPOKE only what the Father commanded.  Logos outlalws personal opinions, personal experiences, rhetoric, poetry, singing, playing instruments or acting.

There are NO historic scholars or founders of denominations who do not support the BIBLICAL view about silence.

God is HOLY SPIRIT or Wholly Spirit and Jesus says that a "spirit does not have flesh or bones."

God breathed (spirit) and Jesus articulated the WORD or Logos.  God breathed that same Spirit OF Melslsiah into the Propjets and THEY connect musical instrumentss to telling God to shut up and to BURNING.  That Spirit in Isaiah says that IF THEY DO NOT SPEAK THE LAWS AND COVENANTS THAT THERE IS NO LIGHT IN THEM.

Ruwach, Ventus or Pneuma literally means only WIND and figurative of Breath.  Dorea may be confused with Charisma where God's Spirit rests UPON people to work miracles.

John 20:22 And when he had SAID this, he BREATHED on them, and SAITH unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Spirit is:

g 4154 from <G4154> (pneo); a current of AIR, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figurative a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implicaiton) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, dæmon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit :- ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare <G5590> (psuche).
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

John 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the GIFT OF GOD, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have ASKED of him, and he would have given thee living water
John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

In Amos 8 and Isaiah 5 musical instruments CAUSED the people to hunger and thirst for the WORD.

The gift of God the WORD sent Jesus to speak only what the Spirit without measure (metron, meter]

g1431.  dorea, do-reh-ah´; from 1435; a gratuity: — gift.
g1435.   doron, do´-ron; a present; specially, a SACRIFICE: — gift, offering.

Acts 2:38 the GIFT is  g1431k and NOT CHARISMA which makes preachers think that their views ARE of Christ. God said that the imagination of humans is only evil continually.

(http://www.piney.com/h7307.g4151.Xp.gif)

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 10:58:59
The WORD or LOGOS is the Regulative Principle or Governing Principle.  God BREATHED and Jesus SPOKE only what the Father commanded.  Logos outlalws personal opinions, personal experiences, rhetoric, poetry, singing, playing instruments or acting.
God, and the Bible, is silent about electricity, but I would be willing to bet that you have electric lighting in every church building that you and your congregation gather; that is assuming that you do meet together as a congregation in some meeting place.  I would bet also that you have some manner of central heating and air conditioning also.  But as they say, whatever floats your boat. And I would also bet that you study, in your church, from a Bible printed on a modern printing press, a printing press on which the Bible is silent.  Sorry, ken, but your position on so much of this is simply indefensible.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 11:20:28
NONE of the "scholars" in these last days understands the ASSEMBLY nor the Purpose Driven "synagogue" which Paul uses for gathering, assembling or Coming Together.  The purpose from the winderness onward without change and briefly restored by the CAMPBELLS was:

EXCLUSIVELY of vocal or instrumental rejoicing or self-authored rhetoric
INCLUSIVE of Rest, Reading and Rehearsing the Word.

That pattern was well documented long before the people fell into INSTRUMENTAL PLAY around the golden calf. Read Acts 7 to grasp that God commanded nothing about the sacrificial system used as a PATTERN for "instrumental worship." No Godly Jew was permitted to be inside the gates during the curse of sacrifices.

(http://www.piney.com/Exodus.18.Pattern.gif)

The WORD or LOGOS is the Regulative Principle outlawing anything not connected to TEACHING Christians who are disciples who are STUDENTS.  Worship was always giving heed to God and HIS Word.  You don't know anyone seeing godliness as a means of financial gain  or occupation who does not follow the TRADE of corrupting the WORD or selling anything else as "selling learning at retail."



(http://www.piney.com/Logos.Short.gif)
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 12:39:47
Well first off, there is nothing in Hebrews 11:1 or 2 Peter 1:1 that is contrary to anything that I posted from Cottrell.  Second, the faith in 1 Corinthians 12:8 is a spiritual gift given to a few select believers, i.e., one who has already been saved by grace through faith.  If you do not understand that then you are even further from the truth than I have at first thought.  And by the way, since I am a cessationist, I believe all such miraculous spiritual gifts ceased with the last apostle of Christ.

Regarding your post on Mr. Cottrell, there is nothing in there that speaks of faith as conforming to what Hebrews 11:1 says of faith. So, as expected, we won't find anything he said that would go against what Hebrews 11:1 says of faith. Though we can say that he failed to consider this scriptures in trying to tell us what faith is according to scriptures. It amazes me that he had not included a verse that explicitly tells us what faith is according to the writer of Hebrews in his discussion of faith. Also, he apparently failed to consider what 2 Peter 1:1 says about faith which speaks of faith as having been obtained or received. So we can see why he does not mention anything about faith in that sense. This is why perhaps he sees faith as not coming from God or given by God, for he seems to see faith as coming from the person or produced and generated by the person.

With regards 1 Cor, 12:8-10, I know that the faith given here is to some believers. But I cited this scriptures about faith, to point out to people here who thinks that faith can't come from God as they believe that faith involves the person's will or decision, just like Mr. Cottrell, that faith can and does come from God as 1 Cor. 12:8-10 so testifies.         

You really need to seriously consider answering these questions, even just within yourself. I think it will bring you new light.

Have you changed as a person because you did or because God changed you? Or is it  the Christian who changed himself to a new person or is it God who changed him?

Have you changed a person's conviction about sin, righteousness and judgement, or is it God? Or is it the Christian preacher who change a person's conviction about sin, righteousness and judgement, or is it God? 

Quote
Perhaps you can comment on those in red:

So, if we now understand what it means that salvation is of God, and that, salvation is by grace, I leave this question:

What then are the matters of repentance, faith, baptism, good works, etc.?
Of course.  Salvation is by grace as stated again and again;  faith repentance, baptism are conditions upon which God has presented to receive the gift of salvation by grace; of those faith is of course the preeminent condition.  Works is not a condition upon which salvation is to be received, but it is a criterion upon which we shall all be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ [the Bema].

So we agree that salvation is by grace. And this being, salvation is of God and is the work of God. But do you agree that in God's salvation, it is God who will bring it about, that it is God who will accomplish this salvation, that salvation rest & depend on God and to no one else nor to anything else?

You seem to say that while salvation is by grace, you take it as somehow dependent on the person by saying that the salvation of God is conditioned upon something that the person must do, which implies that God can't accomplish His salvation without it. And this somehow renders God's salvation to be dependent on the man. But then the almighty and sovereign God is dependent upon no one, or do you believe He is? If God's salvation is conditioned upon something that the person does, how can it be by grace, when grace is something unmerited and undeserved and is free?

I am aware that some, as I had at time past, will have a problem with this, in relation to scriptures which speaks of telling us to repent, to believe, to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to do good works, etc. to be saved, which seems to say that one is saved on the condition that they do all these things. And in this I understand them, in as much as this has been what it seems to be how it was before Jesus Christ came except for baptism in the name of Christ, that is, in the old covenant times. But we must realize that when the Christ had come and had done what He was sent by God to do, there was a huge change, and that Christ came down from heaven into the world for a number of reasons and purposes. Part of the change is the changing of the old covenant to a new and superior covenant with better promises. 

Now, let's search and examine the scriptures as to why there is the need to change the covenant and at the same time see, among numerous, one of the reasons why Christ came to this effect. In Hebrews 8, we learn that Jesus is the mediator of a new covenant, making the old covenant, whose mediator was Moses, to be made and rendered obsolete. In the same reference scriptures, we learn that there was need of a new covenant for the reason that there was something wrong with the old covenant. The fault was found to be with the people, the Israelites. Israel broke the covenant and did not continue in it. What does that mean? One is that Israel has not the power to fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law and continue in it. That is because the Law was weak through the flesh, and that the Law did not have the power to enable them to fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law and remain faithful to God. And so, God promised to make a new covenant with them. For in this new covenant, is included, the power whereby God's people may remain faithful, namely the presence of God living within the believer, that is, the Holy Spirit.

Another thing in the old covenant was that the law can never with the sacrifices of the blood of bulls and goats which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. Otherwise, they would have stopped being offered, for the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. The gifts and sacrifices being offered under the old Mosaic Law were not able to clear the conscience of the worshipers. But this, in the new covenant, is no longer the case. For in the new covenant, God having said "I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more", and with such will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Having said all these, the point is that, the matters of faith, repentance, good works, etc., are not matters that effect the salvation of God of His chosen people, but are rather, the very things that the chosen people of God will have as being one of the result of the salvation work of Christ, having put in effect the new covenant by His death on the cross.

For God said of the new covenant:

1. I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts;
2. I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
3. I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

We must not fail to notice of the amazing grace that is in the new covenant, of its better promises than in the old, which are all 'I WILL' and unconditional.

Praise be to God indeed!!!   
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 13:10:37
Regarding your post on Mr. Cottrell, there is nothing in there that speaks of faith as conforming to what Hebrews 11:1 says of faith.
And there is nothing there that conflicts with Hebrews 11:1. 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 13:17:22
My apologies go out to Dr. Cottrell.  If I could I would go back and delete it all. I am sorry to inflict him upon the likes of too many here.  I shall not do it again.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 13:26:23
We must not fail to notice of the amazing grace that is in the new covenant, of its better promises than in the old, which are all 'I WILL' and unconditional.

Praise be to God indeed!!!
If salvation is unconditional then so is condemnation.  And with either being unconditional, then you have no way whatever of knowing to which group you have been assigned.  That of course was a fallacy of Calvin's teachings as he originally proposed.  People adhering, in and soon after his lifetime, to his teaching recognized that and would keep long lists of their "fruits" in the hope that might indicate into which stall they have been place.  Reformed Theology has since tried, poorly and unsuccessfully, to correct that little bit of idiocy.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 13:56:41
My apologies go out to Dr. Cottrell.  If I could I would go back and delete it all. I am sorry to inflict him upon the likes of too many here.  I shall not do it again.
Grown up and be a man. That's false humility! He has authored and published twenty different books, and once anyone does so, they put themselves out in the public domain to be accepted or criticized, and every child of God is commanded to try the spirits to see if they be of God or not, he does not deserve to be safeguarded from this, and neither does any man, including myself, and he probably desires to be tested IF he's worth his salt (unless he doing so for money, which many do) and If he believes he has truth, which I'm sure he does, and I'm just as sure he does not.     
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 14:04:43
Grown up and be a man. That's false humility! He has authored and published twenty different books, and once anyone does so, they put themselves out in the public domain to be accepted or criticized, and every child of God is commanded to try the spirits to see if they be of God or not, he does not deserve to be safeguarded from this, and neither does any man, including myself, and he probably desires to be tested IF he's worth his salt (unless he doing so for money, which many do) and If he believes he has truth, which I'm sure he does, and I'm just as sure he does not.   
But I did not do so in such a way that he could defend himself.  I should have simply pointed to his book so that if anyone were interested they could address themselves to his entire discourse on the subject not just the few paragraphs that I posted.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 14:21:01
Jack Cottrell: The New Testament is similarly silent about a whole host of issues other than the musical instrument, and the churches of Christ argue among themselves as to whether they should be forbidden or not. Since the Bible is silent about Sunday school, some say it is prohibited; but others say it is OK.

Amos 5:26 But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images,
        the STAR of your god, which ye made to yourselves.

    Acts 7:41 And they made a calf in those days,
            and offered sacrifice unto the idol,
            and rejoiced in the works of their own hands

(http://www.piney.com/Moloch.harp.drum.flute.gif)

The practice in the wilderness, tyre and Jerusalem

Acts 7:42 Then God turned,
        and gave them up to worship the HOST of heaven;
        as it is written in the book of the prophets,
        O ye house of Israel,  have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices
        by the space of forty years in the wilderness?

(http://www.piney.com/Max.Lucado.Molech.Col.Wiki.gif)

Amos 5:27 Therefore will I cause you to go into
        captivity beyond Damascus,
        saith the LORD, whose name is The God of hosts.
Acts 7:43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch,
        and the star of your god Remphan,
        figures which ye made to worship them:
        and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

Mark 10:33 Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem;
        and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests,
        and unto the scribes [hypocrites: speakers, singers, instrument players];
        and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:

    Psa. 22:12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
    Psa. 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet

    Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter. Is.56:11

    And I will appoint over them four kinds, saith the Lord: the sword to slay, and the dogs to tear, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the earth, to devour and destroy. Je.15:3
 Mark 10:34 And they shall mock him,

    Latin Illudo  as a female: Applied as a term of reproach, effeminate men, eloquence, rhētor but with idea of contempt, caneret,”
    A. Of men: “si absurde canat, of the crooked race, a reed pipe, a guitar, crowing of a hen tibiae, tubae,  Gallus , i, m., = Gallos Strab., A. Galli , the priests of Cybele, on account of their emasculated condition) Gallic: “turma,” the troop of the priests of Isis, Ov. Am. 2, 13, 18.  “resupinati cessantia tympana Galli,”

    Gallos , ho, A. priest of Cybele, gallazō , A. practise cult of Cybele, Galli. Eunuch priests of Cybele or the great mother: begun under the reign of Erichthonius, king of Attica, B.C. 1506;

(http://www.piney.com/Mock.Jesus.Half.size.jpg)

Paizo, 4. play on a musical instrument, h.Ap.206: c. acc., “Pan ho kalamophthogga paizōn” Ar.Ra.230; dance and sing, Pi. O.1.16. 5. play amorously, “pros allēlous” X.Smp.9.2

Prospaizō, prospaizousa tois ōmois komē playing over, II. c. acc., theous p. sing to the gods, sing in their praise or honour, Pl.Epin.980b: c. dupl. acc., humnon prosepaisamen . . ton . . Erōta sang a hymn in praise of Eros, Id.Phdr.265c. 2. banter , “tous rhētoras” Id.Mx.235c, cf. Euthd.285a; p. ton kuna, ton arkton, , humnon pr. ton Erōt

In the TWO NATIONS ALLEGORY and in Revelation Jerusalem is the Mother of Harlots and called SODOM

Places like LU will not let you BUY OR SELL unless you have taken the property of widows to ADD instruments or are OF NOTE attacking ANTI-instrumentalists who learned NOT to make vocal or instrumental noises in the Church of Messiah (the Rock) in the wilderness and understand that AFTER Israel was abandoned to worship the starry host (I am sorry that you didn't get to read Acts 7 when they sold you that still-bleeding sheepskin.

LU and other churches are heavily influenced by men like Joseph Shulam practicing Anti Christ CHRISTIAN MEDIATOR and build upon THE BABYLONIAN TALMUD.

Rev. 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
Rev. 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
Rev. 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Rev. 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.





Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 14:22:07
We may not be far apart when it's all said and done,  some we will but not as far as it may seem. With much respect to you and your gifted talents that you do have, I must respectfully disagree, that the Greek is needed to come unto the knowledge of the truth. What is needed above knowing the Greek is this:  My dear brother, nowhere in the scriptures do we read of Christ, or his apostles going forth and telling anyone that knowing the original langauge of the OT was important in coming to the true understanding of what they had before them called the word of God. They took the scriptures preserved for them and boldly preach the word of God to others, trusting just what Paul prayed for the saints at Ephesus, which as we quoted above: Truth is NOT found in so-called Greek language, but in the scriptures given to us by God. Brother NO MAN has seen the original epistles written by the apostles and neither do we need them....and besides, we have them, and BY FAITH we truly believe this to be so.

One more thought~most of God's children are the poor and unlearned of this world, NOT the mighty and noble and wise~ knowing this, we trust our God that he has preserved for us his word according to Psalm 12 and we truly believe he has, and we allow others to try to convince men that they are wise by knowing something they truly do not know, since the original are all long gone. 

Now, who has the spirit of wisdom and revelation/understanding given by God that will allow them to come unto the knowledge of his truth? We truly pray this for all sincere children of God.
Greek isn't necessary.  It's just helpful.  In the case of this particular verse, it lets us clear up something that is otherwise ambiguous.

Your comparison, though... that isn't apples to apples.  Nobody would ever appeal to Hebrew for clarity.  Old Hebrew is replete with ambiguities.  You don't teach from it, so much as you argue over what it means!  That was what the Pharisees and Sadducees did - they read the Scriptures to the people in a dead language, and then gave them several competing legal arguments as to the meaning of it all.

Jesus and company, by way of contrast, preached to the people with authority, which is to say, they gave them an unambiguous reading of the Scriptures in their native tongue.

Allow me to do likewise:

You were as corpses, because of your errors and rebellion in times past, when you walked in the ways of the world, under the direction of its wicked prince, who still inspires disobedience in the children, even today.

And we all were once part of these children, and went about gratifying our appetites, and whims.

Until God, out of his wealth of mercies, gave us help, namely this great help: that when we were but corpses and offenders, he made us live, together with His Anointed.  Because of God's generosity, you were healed,

Resurrected together, and seated together in positions of authority under Jesus, His Anointed.

So that He might show to the generations to come the surpassing abundance of His generosity in His benevolences to us, by Jesus, His Anointed.

Because of God's generosity you were healed.  It is not from yourselves; the gift is from God.

Not by efforts, so no man may take credit.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 14:27:57
God, and the Bible, is silent about electricity, but I would be willing to bet that you have electric lighting in every church building that you and your congregation gather; that is assuming that you do meet together as a congregation in some meeting place.  I would bet also that you have some manner of central heating and air conditioning also.  But as they say, whatever floats your boat. And I would also bet that you study, in your church, from a Bible printed on a modern printing press, a printing press on which the Bible is silent.  Sorry, ken, but your position on so much of this is simply indefensible.
I don't think its as silent as you think on that subject, but I'll let Ken answer for himself.

edit: looks like he already did, and its all OT, and therefore a bit... obfuscated, so I guess I'll just say it:

God, and the Bible, are hostile to the notion of any building, and especially to the cost of the upkeep of such a house, and of any professional clergyman.

Of churches:
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:24

Of clergy:
My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray,
Jer 50:6

Of worship so-called:
For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
Psa 51:16

The pattern is still the same old pattern - the shepherds are there to fleece the flock, not just protect it.  For their part, the sheep are amenable to it, apparently even when the shepherds can't/don't/won't deliver on the protection.

Jarrod
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 14:38:56
I count it a great pleasure that as a GOD-CREATED person NOT OF THIS WORLD He didn't think He had to tell me to get in out of the rain or have a bathroom with toilet tissue close.   In fact "they burned up all of the houses of god.  Synagogue always existed and Jacob commanded us not to attend the assemblies (synagogues) of the Levites nor inter into covenant with them.

Jesus WENT INTO synagogues which were widely built after the Return and the Sacrificial System was pretty much dead. As a PATTERN of decency and order Jesus STOOD UP to Read, made a short application and SAT DOWN.  The pulpit was to hold up the SCROLL ore even a bound LXX and not to hold up the peacher.

If the command of both male and female to be SILENT so that we might "All be SAFE and Come to a Knowledge OF THE TRUTH."  Why would a simple simon want to make NOISE when Jesus comes to be our ONLY Teacher where APT elders obey the command to TEACH THAT WHICH HAS BEEN TAUGHT.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 16:27:37
God is God and we are not: He ASSERTS and does not suggest.  I worry about two problems:

That where God has not revealed then WE have the right to IMPOSE knowing that we are going to SOW DISCORD.
The other is that people claim that God is SILENT about the use of instruments--mostly of doing hard labor or inducing the shock and awe of religious rituals.

We can all worry about those who claim that God COMMANDED and NEEDED the slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent animal where the NOISE of the Jacob-Cursed and God-Abandoned Levites where music is derived from mysteries (Paul's wrath) intended to make the lambs dumb before the slaughter. 

No Calvinist reads Calvin when they can use the Professor's TEXT BOOK and maybe get a good grade.

THE NECESSITY OF REFORMING THE CHURCH OF CHRIST

http://www.piney.com/Calvin-Reform-1.html

TO THE MOST INVINCIBLE EMPEROR CHARLES V., AND THE MOST ILLUSTRIOUS PRINCES AND OTHER ORDERS, NOW HOLDING A DIET OF THE EMPIRE AT SPIRES,

A HUMBLE EXHORTATION SERIOUSLY TO UNDERTAKE THE TASK OF RESTORING THE CHURCH. PRESENTED IN THE NAME OF ALL THOSE WHO WISH CHRIST TO REIGN. AUGUST EMPEROR,

For where can I exert myself to better purpose or more honestly, where, too, in a matter at this time more necessary, than in attempting, according to my ability, to aid the CHURCH  OF CHRIST whose claims it is unlawful in any instance to deny, and which is now in grievous distress, and in extreme danger?

But there is no occasion for a long preface concerning myself. Receive what I say as you would do if it were pronounced by the united voice

    of all those who either have already taken care to restore the Church,
    or are desirous that it should be restored to true order.

I come now to ceremonies, which, while they ought to be grave attestations of divine worship, are rather a mere mockery of God.
        A new Judaism, as a substitute for that which God had distinctly abrogated,
        has again been reared up by means of numerous puerile extravagancies,
        collected from different quarters; and with these have been mixed up certain impious rites,
        partly borrowed from the heathen, and more adapted to some THEATRICAL SHOWthan to the dignity of our religion.

The first evil here is, that an immense number of ceremonies, which God had by his authority ABROGATED, once for all have been again revived.

The next evil is, that while CEREMONIES ought to be living exercises of piety, men are vainly occupied with numbers of them that are both frivolous and useless.

But by far the most deadly evil of all is, that after men have thus mocked God with ceremonies of one kind or other, they think they have fulfilled their duty as admirably as if these ceremonies included in them the whole essence of piety and divine worship.

Having observed that the Word of God is the test which discriminates between his true worship and that which is false and vitiated, we thence readily infer that the whole form of divine worship in general use in the present day is nothing but mere corruption.

For men pay no regard to what God has commanded, or to what he approved, in order that they may serve him in a becoming manner,

    but assume to themselves a licence of devising modes of worship,
    and AFTERWARD OBTRUDING them upon him as a substitute for obedience.

By this self-abasement we are trained to obedience and devotedness to his will, so that his fear reigns in our hearts, and regulates all the actions of our lives. That in these things consists the true and sincere worship which alone God approves, and in which alone He delights, is both taught by the Holy Spirit throughout the Scriptures, and is also, antecedent to discussion, the obvious dictate of piety.

Nor from the beginning was there any other method of worshipping God, the only difference being, that this spiritual truth, which with us is naked and simple, was under the former dispensation wrapt up in figures.

John Calvin on continuing Revelation

http://www.piney.com/CalvinSpWord.html

1.The fanatics wrongly appeal to the Holy Spirit Those who, rejecting Scripture, imagine that they have some peculiar way of penetrating to God, are to be deemed not so much under the influence of error as madness. For certain giddy men have lately appeared, who, while they make a great display of the superiority of the Spirit,

    reject all reading of the Scriptures themselves, and deride the simplicity of those who only delight in what they call the dead and deadly letter.

    But I wish they would tell me what spirit it is whose inspiration raises them to such a sublime height that they dare despise the doctrine of Scripture as mean and childish.   
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 16:55:00
I don't think its as silent as you think on that subject, but I'll let Ken answer for himself.

edit: looks like he already did, and its all OT, and therefore a bit... obfuscated, so I guess I'll just say it:

God, and the Bible, are hostile to the notion of any building, and especially to the cost of the upkeep of such a house, and of any professional clergyman.

Of churches:
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:24

Of clergy:
My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray,
Jer 50:6

Of worship so-called:
For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
Psa 51:16

The pattern is still the same old pattern - the shepherds are there to fleece the flock, not just protect it.  For their part, the sheep are amenable to it, apparently even when the shepherds can't/don't/won't deliver on the protection.

Jarrod
What has that to do with using electricity, furnaces or air conditioners anywhere that any might be meeting together?
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 19:09:21
You begin to understand those who do not appreciate GRACE. When God speaks His disciples male and female remain quiet so that All can be SAFE and come to a knowledge of the truth. 

Hab. 2:19 Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach! Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it.
Hab. 2:20 But the Lord is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him.

Psa. 50:7  Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, and I will testify against thee: I am God, even thy God.
Psa. 50:8 I will not reprove [justify] thee for thy sacrifices or thy burnt offerings, to have been continually before me.
Psa. 50:9 I will take no bullock out of thy house, nor he goats out of thy folds.
Psa. 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
Psa. 50:11 I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.
Psa. 50:12 If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof.
Psa. 50:13 Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats?

INSTEAD
Psa. 50:14 Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High:
Psa. 50:15 And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.
Psa. 50:16 But unto the wicked God saith,
          What hast thou to do to declare my statutes,
          or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth?
Psa. 50:17 Seeing thou hatest instruction, and castest my words behind thee.

The Spirit OF Messiah in Isaiah 1 and Jeremiah 7 (and other passages) deny that God commanded sacrifices or burnt offerings when He saved them BY GRACE and gave them  The Book of The Covenant based on grace
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Wed Nov 01, 2017 - 22:31:32
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 12:39:47
Quote
We must not fail to notice of the amazing grace that is in the new covenant, of its better promises than in the old, which are all 'I WILL' and unconditional.

Praise be to God indeed!!!
If salvation is unconditional then so is condemnation.  And with either being unconditional, then you have no way whatever of knowing to which group you have been assigned.  That of course was a fallacy of Calvin's teachings as he originally proposed.  People adhering, in and soon after his lifetime, to his teaching recognized that and would keep long lists of their "fruits" in the hope that might indicate into which stall they have been place.  Reformed Theology has since tried, poorly and unsuccessfully, to correct that little bit of idiocy.

First is that, what I was saying as unconditional are the promises of God in the New covenant, not salvation. Anyway, let me comment on what you are saying here. 

If salvation is unconditional then so is condemnation.

First, salvation is based on God's will and His salvation is by grace. Salvation is conditional in that sense. It may be said to be unconditional in another sense, such as on the sense that the person is saved, not based on anything that may come from him, such as his works, but is saved as a gift coming from God ~ by grace.           

Now, a person's condemnation certainly is not grace. One is not condemned by God if not for man's doing that which is evil and is sin. Man is condemned because of his sin. There is no scriptures which says or speaks of God condemning sinless people. Besides ,there is not one man, according to scriptures, who is not guilty of sin, except the Lord Jesus Christ.

And with either being unconditional, then you have no way whatever of knowing to which group you have been assigned.

There really is only one group. All of mankind is and will be guilty of sin (I will not  go to length to explain this here) and so are under condemnation. Now, God have chosen a people to be His people and His children, from mankind. But to be His children, God have to create them anew and make them be conformed in the image of His Son, Jesus Christ. The question therefore is, are we one of them? How do we know if we are? The answer to the question can be found in scriptures. In a general sense, one may know if he is among the children of God, if he comes to believe in the gospel written in scriptures and have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Further still, is if he is born again in the spirit, and continue in faith and live by faith and abide in Jesus Christ. And there are a lot more that scriptures says with which we can know.

With regards this, Peter have this to say and remind those who have obtained faith.

2 Peter 1:1-11
1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

   
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Thu Nov 02, 2017 - 04:39:40
Jack Cottrell: The New Testament is similarly silent about a whole host of issues other than the musical instrument, and the churches of Christ argue among themselves as to whether they should be forbidden or not. Since the Bible is silent about Sunday school, some say it is prohibited; but others say it is OK[.
Kenneth this thread is not about musical instruments, so let go of it in this thread and deal with in an appropriate thread designated for that particular subject. I'm netural on this subject and would love to discuss this with you if you start a thread dealing JUST with THIS SUBJECT of musical instruments under the revelation of the New Covenant. I said under the "revelation of" the New Covenant because the New Covenant has ALWAYS been a working progress "moving forward" toward the death of its TESTATOR! Abel was under the New Covenant of the grace of God as much as every NT believer as far as entering into eternal life in the world to come.

So start a thread dealing ONLY with musical instruments and the child of God under the New Covenant.

Kenneth, I started one for you.....http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/musical-instruments-and-the-child-of-god-under-the-new-covenant/msg1055085058/?topicseen#msg1055085058
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Fri Nov 03, 2017 - 14:46:03
Amos 5:26 But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images,
        the STAR of your god, which ye made to yourselves.

    Acts 7:41 And they made a calf in those days,
            and offered sacrifice unto the idol,
            and rejoiced in the works of their own hands

([url]http://www.piney.com/Moloch.harp.drum.flute.gif[/url])

The practice in the wilderness, tyre and Jerusalem

Acts 7:42 Then God turned,
        and gave them up to worship the HOST of heaven;
        as it is written in the book of the prophets,
        O ye house of Israel,  have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices
        by the space of forty years in the wilderness?

Hey Ken,

Have you read any of the reports from the dig at Timna, where they unearthed the remains of a Shrine of Hathor, that was converted into a Tabernacle?

Quote from: Wikipedia
When the Egyptians left the area in the middle of the 12th century BCE, the Midianites continued using the temple. They erased the evidence of the Egyptian cult, effaced the images of Hathor and the Egyptian hieroglyphics, and built a row of stelae and a bench of offerings on both sides of the entrance. They turned the temple into a tented desert shrine and filled it with Midianite pottery and metal jewelry. There was also a bronze serpent found nearby the sanctuary.


http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-timna-valley-of-the-biblical-copper-mines-beno-rothenberg-1969ad.htm

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/ancient-cultures/ancient-israel/fabrics-found-at-ancient-mines-in-timna-valley/

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/ancient-cultures/daily-life-and-practice/skilled-craftsmen-not-slaves-smelted-copper-at-timna/

Interesting stuff!

Jarrod
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Fri Nov 03, 2017 - 15:12:42
No, not recently. I have seen some material about the copper mines.  I looked it up at

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timna_Valley

Beno Rothenberg, the main excavator of the Timna Valley area, excavated a small Egyptian temple dedicated to Hathor, the Egyptian goddess of mining, at the base of Solomon's Pillars. It was built during the reign of Pharaoh Seti I at the end of the 14th century BCE, for the Egyptian miners. The shrine housed an open courtyard with a cella, an area cut into the rock to presumably house a statue of the deity.

As a defacto princesses, Miriam is said to be a priesstess or prophetess of Hathar represented by the female of APIS

http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/hathor.html

She was the patron of dancers and was associated with percussive music, particularly the sistrum (which was also a fertility fetish). She was also associated with the Menit necklace (which may also have been a percussion instrument) and was often known as "the Great Menit". Many of her priests were artisans, musicians, and dancers who added to the quality of life of the Egyptians and worshipped her by expressing their artistic natures

Miriam or bitter waters is one of those "authorities" for music.  I will read these papers. thanks
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Wed Nov 08, 2017 - 00:26:46
Quote
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

If we read it carefully, especially in the Greek, then we get a very different picture of what Paul said...

"because in favor you have been saved, through faith, and not because of anything that you did, it is the gift of God,"

Grace does not save anyone. Grace is the love of God in action towards us. Grace is what prompted God to make a plan of salvation, and here, charis is better translated as favor, not grace. Charis is the motivating factor; faith is the conduit through which we receive salvation from God, not because of anything that we did (except choose to believe).

Salvation is the gift of God. No one can earn it, because salvation is forgiveness of sin. No amount of 'work' can erase our wrongs against God. Only He can forgive us for what we have done against Him. We cannot work off a wrong done to God.

If my child drowns in the swimming pool and I look out the window and see him floating in the water, my love for him will push me to bring him to the ground and perform CPR to revive and save him. My love for him did not save him...it was the motivating factor which caused me to do CPR and the CPR saved him. The same is true as far as charis is concerned.

It doesn't save, it only prompted God to make a way for us to come to Him for salvation.


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Nov 08, 2017 - 15:53:28
If we read it carefully, especially in the Greek, then we get a very different picture of what Paul said...

"because in favor you have been saved, through faith, and not because of anything that you did, it is the gift of God,"

Grace does not save anyone. Grace is the love of God in action towards us. Grace is what prompted God to make a plan of salvation, and here, charis is better translated as favor, not grace. Charis is the motivating factor; faith is the conduit through which we receive salvation from God, not because of anything that we did (except choose to believe).

Salvation is the gift of God. No one can earn it, because salvation is forgiveness of sin. No amount of 'work' can erase our wrongs against God. Only He can forgive us for what we have done against Him. We cannot work off a wrong done to God.

If my child drowns in the swimming pool and I look out the window and see him floating in the water, my love for him will push me to bring him to the ground and perform CPR to revive and save him. My love for him did not save him...it was the motivating factor which caused me to do CPR and the CPR saved him. The same is true as far as charis is concerned.

It doesn't save, it only prompted God to make a way for us to come to Him for salvation.
Good post.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Wed Nov 08, 2017 - 23:05:59
Quote
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
If we read it carefully, especially in the Greek, then we get a very different picture of what Paul said...

"because in favor you have been saved, through faith, and not because of anything that you did, it is the gift of God,"

Grace does not save anyone. Grace is the love of God in action towards us. Grace is what prompted God to make a plan of salvation, and here, charis is better translated as favor, not grace. Charis is the motivating factor; faith is the conduit through which we receive salvation from God, not because of anything that we did (except choose to believe).

Salvation is the gift of God. No one can earn it, because salvation is forgiveness of sin. No amount of 'work' can erase our wrongs against God. Only He can forgive us for what we have done against Him. We cannot work off a wrong done to God.

If my child drowns in the swimming pool and I look out the window and see him floating in the water, my love for him will push me to bring him to the ground and perform CPR to revive and save him. My love for him did not save him...it was the motivating factor which caused me to do CPR and the CPR saved him. The same is true as far as charis is concerned.

It doesn't save, it only prompted God to make a way for us to come to Him for salvation.


That's right, grace does not save anyone. God is the Savior. God saves according to His sovereign will, purpose, pleasure and glory. And salvation is the grace of God and from God. It is something outside of ourselves.

Yes, the grace of salvation is a gift of God and from God. It is free. He freely gives it to a person, not according to anything that the person have done, but according to His good and sovereign will, purpose, pleasure and glory.

In my understanding, it is salvation per se, not the opportunity to be saved that is spoken of in the scriptures as being the grace of salvation or the gift of God.     
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Thu Nov 09, 2017 - 05:52:11
Yes, the grace of salvation is a gift of God and from God. It is free. He freely gives it to a person, not according to anything that the person have done, but according to His good and sovereign will, purpose, pleasure and glory.
If that is the case, then God is remiss in not having saved everyone.  For He did say, through Peter, that He desired that all to come to repentance (1 Pet 3:9). So then if that is His desire and salvation is wholly according to His good and sovereign will, purpose, pleasure and glory and not according to anything the person has done surely all would, as He desired, come to repentance.  But of course that is not the case and therefore either you are wrong or God is lying,  God doesn't lie so clearly you are wrong.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Alan on Thu Nov 09, 2017 - 06:16:37

In my understanding, it is salvation per se, not the opportunity to be saved that is spoken of in the scriptures as being the grace of salvation or the gift of God.   


"The grace of salvation"? Not sure that is grammatically correct, salvation is the gift, grace is the method to which God administers salvation.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Thu Nov 09, 2017 - 09:01:37
Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 23:05:59
Quote
Yes, the grace of salvation is a gift of God and from God. It is free. He freely gives it to a person, not according to anything that the person have done, but according to His good and sovereign will, purpose, pleasure and glory.
If that is the case, then God is remiss in not having saved everyone.  For He did say, through Peter, that He desired that all to come to repentance (1 Pet 3:9). So then if that is His desire and salvation is wholly according to His good and sovereign will, purpose, pleasure and glory and not according to anything the person has done surely all would, as He desired, come to repentance.  But of course that is not the case and therefore either you are wrong or God is lying,  God doesn't lie so clearly you are wrong.

You have brought up an interesting verse 4WD, but the truth in scriptures remains and change not, that the grace of salvation is a gift of God and from God, and is free, and that God freely gives it to a person, not according to anything that the person have done, but according to His good and sovereign will, purpose, pleasure and glory.

First, we take note to whom Peter writes to : "To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Pet.1:1). In other words, to believers, to Christians, to the Christian community.

Keeping that in mind,we now look at what is Peter saying in 2 Peter 3:9. The context is about the second coming of the Lord. Peter speaks of scoffers that will come in the last days, saying "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” (v.3-4). Who are these scoffers? They belong among those to whom Peter writes. In verses 1-2, we have Peter saying this "Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior,".  Verse 5-7 says, "For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." The "they" refers to the scoffers. it is not surprising that among the believers, there are scoffers, as many believers do and easily forget of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of the apostles of the Lord. In fact, not only are there scoffers, but even false teachers, among the believers, but as Peter said in 2 Peter 2: 1, "..there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction." We can see that, these false teachers bring on themselves destruction.

Going now to 2 Peter 3:9, when Peter speaks of the Lord as being "...longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.", it relates to the context as I have discussed in the paragraph above. Here Peter tells us us that the Lord desires that any, that is, the Christian believers, those such as the scoffers, should all come to repentance and not perish. For if the Lord were not patient, surely many will perish. But thanks be to God, as 2 Peter 3:9 says, the Lord is is longsuffering toward us.

You said:

"So then if that is His desire and salvation is wholly according to His good and sovereign will, purpose, pleasure and glory and not according to anything the person has done surely all would, as He desired, come to repentance."


That may well be said, but it is not the case. As even God desires that all men not sin, it does not happen. By this we can somehow understand that some desires of God such as these, are not as strong as some of His other desires. And we shows also can understand that the sovereign will of God is sure to be fulfilled, but the moral law is disobeyed by men, and the desires of God are fulfilled only to the extent that they are included in His sovereign will, to His glory.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Thu Nov 09, 2017 - 09:05:57
"The grace of salvation"? Not sure that is grammatically correct, salvation is the gift, grace is the method to which God administers salvation.

Strong's Concordance
charis: grace, kindness
Original Word: χάρις, ιτος, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: charis
Phonetic Spelling: (khar'-ece)
Short Definition: grace, favor, kindness
Definition: (a) grace, as a gift or blessing brought to man by Jesus Christ, (b) favor, (c) gratitude, thanks, (d) a favor, kindness.

Grace is not a method as we can understand by its definition.

Grace of salvation = gift of salvation
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Thu Nov 09, 2017 - 09:33:30
You said:

"So then if that is His desire and salvation is wholly according to His good and sovereign will, purpose, pleasure and glory and not according to anything the person has done surely all would, as He desired, come to repentance."


That may well be said, but it is not the case. As even God desires that all men not sin, it does not happen. By this we can somehow understand that some desires of God such as these, are not as strong as some of His other desires. And we shows also can understand that the sovereign will of God is sure to be fulfilled, but the moral law is disobeyed by men, and the desires of God are fulfilled only to the extent that they are included in His sovereign will, to His glory.
You continue to amaze me at your nearly complete lack of rational thinking.  If God does not save some because they have disobeyed the moral law, then clearly God considers the actions of men in His choice of whom to save.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Thu Nov 09, 2017 - 10:04:21
You continue to amaze me at your nearly complete lack of rational thinking.  If God does not save some because they have disobeyed the moral law, then clearly God considers the actions of men in His choice of whom to save.

Please point out where in my post have made you come to think that God does not save some because they have disobeyed the moral law.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Thu Nov 09, 2017 - 10:17:06
Please point out where in my post have made you come to think that God does not save some because they have disobeyed the moral law.
That is what you said:
Quote
And we shows also can understand that the sovereign will of God is sure to be fulfilled, but the moral law is disobeyed by men, and the desires of God are fulfilled only to the extent that they are included in His sovereign will, to His glory.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Thu Nov 09, 2017 - 10:29:18
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 10:04:21
Quote
Please point out where in my post have made you come to think that God does not save some because they have disobeyed the moral law.
That is what you said:
Quote
And we shows also can understand that the sovereign will of God is sure to be fulfilled, but the moral law is disobeyed by men, and the desires of God are fulfilled only to the extent that they are included in His sovereign will, to His glory.

I don't see anything in there that says God does not save some because they have disobeyed the moral law.

I see some error in there. Let me correct that.

And we shows also can understand that the sovereign will of God is sure to be fulfilled, but the moral law is disobeyed by men, and the desires of God are fulfilled only to the extent that they are included in His sovereign will, to His glory. 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Thu Nov 09, 2017 - 11:50:23
Those who speak of initial salvation by Grace Through Faith do not grasp that those who are already saved or MADE Safe are KEPT SAFE by faithfulness.

Those who refute Scripture and say that our sins are remitted by grace alone or that we are ADDED to His Church by Christ by faith alone or have our spirits translated into the heavenly kingddom or given A holy spirit (ours) or A good conscience ALWAYS defend and practice THAT FROM WHICH WE ARE KEPT SAFE.

(http://www.piney.com/Ephesians.2.Saved.From.What.gif)

If you are part of an institution which practices what those SAVED FROM A CROOKED RACE then you HAVE not and cannot continue to BE SAFE because your rituals PROOF that you are still under bondage to laws of "worship" when the SAVED REST and are protected in A School of Christ through His Word ONLY.

You are saying that you have been saved by ELECTION and do not need to be SAFE from the Crooked Race, do not need to Hear the Word,  Do not have to trust the Word, do not have to confess that "Jesus is the Christ the Son of god," do not have to obey what was prophesied and commanded to be baptized, do not NEED to have your spirits translated into the heavenly kingdom and do not have to ALWAYS Obey whatever it is that Jesus Christ commanded.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Thu Nov 09, 2017 - 22:28:07
Those who speak of initial salvation by Grace Through Faith do not grasp that those who are already saved or MADE Safe are KEPT SAFE by faithfulness.

Those who refute Scripture and say that our sins are remitted by grace alone or that we are ADDED to His Church by Christ by faith alone or have our spirits translated into the heavenly kingddom or given A holy spirit (ours) or A good conscience ALWAYS defend and practice THAT FROM WHICH WE ARE KEPT SAFE.

([url]http://www.piney.com/Ephesians.2.Saved.From.What.gif[/url])

If you are part of an institution which practices what those SAVED FROM A CROOKED RACE then you HAVE not and cannot continue to BE SAFE because your rituals PROOF that you are still under bondage to laws of "worship" when the SAVED REST and are protected in A School of Christ through His Word ONLY.

You are saying that you have been saved by ELECTION and do not need to be SAFE from the Crooked Race, do not need to Hear the Word,  Do not have to trust the Word, do not have to confess that "Jesus is the Christ the Son of god," do not have to obey what was prophesied and commanded to be baptized, do not NEED to have your spirits translated into the heavenly kingdom and do not have to ALWAYS Obey whatever it is that Jesus Christ commanded.


I believe that the Christians who believes that they are saved by the grace of God and is one of the elect, should not use their liberty by which Christ has made them free, as an opportunity for the flesh, nor use their liberty as a cloak for vice, and be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. This is why Paul tells us concerning our liberty:

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

Galatians 5:13-14
13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

James 1:25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

1 Peter 2:15-16
15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men— 16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Fri Nov 10, 2017 - 00:08:09
Good post.

Thank you.


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Fri Nov 10, 2017 - 00:10:54
If we read it carefully, especially in the Greek, then we get a very different picture of what Paul said...

"because in favor you have been saved, through faith, and not because of anything that you did, it is the gift of God,"

Grace does not save anyone. Grace is the love of God in action towards us. Grace is what prompted God to make a plan of salvation, and here, charis is better translated as favor, not grace. Charis is the motivating factor; faith is the conduit through which we receive salvation from God, not because of anything that we did (except choose to believe).

Salvation is the gift of God. No one can earn it, because salvation is forgiveness of sin. No amount of 'work' can erase our wrongs against God. Only He can forgive us for what we have done against Him. We cannot work off a wrong done to God.

If my child drowns in the swimming pool and I look out the window and see him floating in the water, my love for him will push me to bring him to the ground and perform CPR to revive and save him. My love for him did not save him...it was the motivating factor which caused me to do CPR and the CPR saved him. The same is true as far as charis is concerned.

It doesn't save, it only prompted God to make a way for us to come to Him for salvation.



That's right, grace does not save anyone. God is the Savior. God saves according to His sovereign will, purpose, pleasure and glory. And salvation is the grace of God and from God. It is something outside of ourselves.

Yes, the grace of salvation is a gift of God and from God. It is free. He freely gives it to a person, not according to anything that the person have done, but according to His good and sovereign will, purpose, pleasure and glory.

In my understanding, it is salvation per se, not the opportunity to be saved that is spoken of in the scriptures as being the grace of salvation or the gift of God.   

There's really not any "grace of salvation," Michael...salvation is a gift that God gives to us so that we can enter into His presence for relationship. However, God does not save according to His soveriegn will...if that was the case, all men would be saved. But that would ultimately defeat the purpose that He has for all human history.


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Fri Nov 10, 2017 - 02:48:43
Michael...
Quote
That's right, grace does not save anyone. God is the Savior. God saves according to His sovereign will, purpose, pleasure and glory. And salvation is the grace of God and from God. It is something outside of ourselves.

Yes, the grace of salvation is a gift of God and from God. It is free. He freely gives it to a person, not according to anything that the person have done, but according to His good and sovereign will, purpose, pleasure and glory.

In my understanding, it is salvation per se, not the opportunity to be saved that is spoken of in the scriptures as being the grace of salvation or the gift of God.   
There's really not any "grace of salvation," Michael...salvation is a gift that God gives to us so that we can enter into His presence for relationship. However, God does not save according to His soveriegn will...if that was the case, all men would be saved. But that would ultimately defeat the purpose that He has for all human history.

Strong's Concordance
charis: grace, kindness
Original Word: χάρις, ιτος, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: charis
Phonetic Spelling: (khar'-ece)
Short Definition: grace, favor, kindness
Definition: (a) grace, as a gift or blessing brought to man by Jesus Christ, (b) favor, (c) gratitude, thanks, (d) a favor, kindness.

Grace of salvation = gift of salvation

That's what I meant when I say grace of salvation. Now, if you prefer to translate charis with favor or kindness, I have no problem with that. With that, it does not change what I meant when I say grace of salvation, as I also mean the salvation as coming from the loving kindness of God, and salvation as an unmerited and undeserved favor of God.   

You said "salvation is a gift that God gives to us so that we can enter into His presence for relationship". I agree. For we can enter into God's presence only when God, by His will and purpose, in accordance with His loving kindness and grace, recreate us into a new creature. God does this not because we deserve it, but as an unmerited favor from Him. That is salvation, and it is a gift from God, and it is free, and it is His work and doing.

You said "However, God does not save according to His soveriegn will...if that was the case, all men would be saved."

Then why does God save at all if not that He willed it Himself? Was it because He must or that He was forced to save mankind or some even? For in the beginning, God created man. And this is what He said to the man (Adam) “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” As we can see, God had made no promise to save the man in case he eat and die. And we know the rest of the history. So, God is under no obligation whatsoever to save the fallen Adam and Eve. So, if God now saves, it is obviously by His sovereign will. And of course we learn in scriptures that God does not save all of mankind. And there is no unrighteousness in that, for He is the Creator and He is the only Sovereign.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Tue Nov 14, 2017 - 01:38:37
There's really not any "grace of salvation," Michael...salvation is a gift that God gives to us so that we can enter into His presence for relationship. However, God does not save according to His soveriegn will...if that was the case, all men would be saved. But that would ultimately defeat the purpose that He has for all human history.


Strong's Concordance
charis: grace, kindness
Original Word: χάρις, ιτος, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: charis
Phonetic Spelling: (khar'-ece)
Short Definition: grace, favor, kindness
Definition: (a) grace, as a gift or blessing brought to man by Jesus Christ, (b) favor, (c) gratitude, thanks, (d) a favor, kindness.

Yah...but like I have said before, Strongs is not the best concordance because he didn't address grammar, only strict Greek definitions, and his concordance also has errors. The complete definition of charis is:

acceptance, benefit, favor, gift, grace, gracious, gratification, gratitude, joy, kindness, love, loving-kindness, pleasure, thanks, thanksgiving, thank-worthy, the love of God in action towards men.

Quote
Grace of salvation = gift of salvation     That's what I meant when I say grace of salvation.


OK, understood...but you do know that the Bible does not have "grace of salvation" anywhere, right?

Quote
Now, if you prefer to translate charis with favor or kindness, I have no problem with that. With that, it does not change what I meant when I say grace of salvation, as I also mean the salvation as coming from the loving kindness of God, and salvation as an unmerited and undeserved favor of God.
   

You were doing fine until that last sentence, where we need to make a distinction as the Scriptures do. There is common grace which God loves all people, giving them rain and breath etc...(Mat. 5:45), this is the ONLY "unmerited" or "undeserved" grace of God. The grace that saves you, IS merited and deserved...because it ONLY comes to a person who enters into the New Covenant. That kind of grace is entered into through the exercise of faith, which makes it merited...

Romans 5:2
also, it is in Him - by faith - that we have access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of receiving the glory of God.

Need clarification? You see, the problem with defining grace is that for over 500 years people have used the English definitions of grace, NOT the Greek definitions of charis.

Quote
You said "salvation is a gift that God gives to us so that we can enter into His presence for relationship". I agree. For we can enter into God's presence only when God, by His will and purpose, in accordance with His loving kindness and grace, recreate us into a new creature. God does this not because we deserve it, but as an unmerited favor from Him. That is salvation, and it is a gift from God, and it is free, and it is His work and doing.

Just for clarification, again...salvation is not unmerited, one must enter into the New Covenant in order to get saved. Second, it is not free...read the Scriptures again. God will not save a person who does not repent from his previous lifestyle of sin...it is free in the meaning of being free monetarily, but it costs you your whole life. Jesus said to "count the cost"...because the cost is HIGH when it comes to the flesh.

You said "However, God does not save according to His soveriegn will...if that was the case, all men would be saved."

Quote
Then why does God save at all if not that He willed it Himself? Was it because He must or that He was forced to save mankind or some even?


Study, Micheal...study. God does not choose to save anyone. He has paved the way to salvation through Christ, and calls to "whosoever will" to come to Him on His terms. God wants all, but gets only a few in comparison to that all.

Quote
For in the beginning, God created man. And this is what He said to the man (Adam) “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” As we can see, God had made no promise to save the man in case he eat and die.

No, He made no promise to save anyone, but He did make the promise to send the Savior. You are not looking at the details of Scripture.

Quote
And we know the rest of the history. So, God is under no obligation whatsoever to save the fallen Adam and Eve. So, if God now saves, it is obviously by His sovereign will. And of course we learn in scriptures that God does not save all of mankind. And there is no unrighteousness in that, for He is the Creator and He is the only Sovereign.

Again, being sovereign does NOT mean that you get everything your way. The same with God...the king is sovereign, yet people still steal from one another, they still murder one another, etc., etc. God is sovereign, yet people still kill one another, men rape women on a continual basis, babies are aborted for no other reason than as a means of birth control by adulterous women.

If God exercise the kind of sovereignty that you speak of, then none of these things would be happening because He would not be allowing it to happen. Your stand here on sovereignty is not according to the real world.


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Tue Nov 14, 2017 - 09:14:21
Quote
Strong's Concordance
charis: grace, kindness
Original Word: χάρις, ιτος, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: charis
Phonetic Spelling: (khar'-ece)
Short Definition: grace, favor, kindness
Definition: (a) grace, as a gift or blessing brought to man by Jesus Christ, (b) favor, (c) gratitude, thanks, (d) a favor, kindness.

Yah...but like I have said before, Strongs is not the best concordance because he didn't address grammar, only strict Greek definitions, and his concordance also has errors. The complete definition of charis is:

acceptance, benefit, favor, gift, grace, gracious, gratification, gratitude, joy, kindness, love, loving-kindness, pleasure, thanks, thanksgiving, thank-worthy, the love of God in action towards men.

Please provide links or reference where you got this complete definition you say of Charis.
 
Quote
Grace of salvation = gift of salvation     That's what I meant when I say grace of salvation.
OK, understood...but you do know that the Bible does not have "grace of salvation" anywhere, right?

Perhaps there is not in scriptures the phrase "grace of salvation".     

Quote
Now, if you prefer to translate charis with favor or kindness, I have no problem with that. With that, it does not change what I meant when I say grace of salvation, as I also mean the salvation as coming from the loving kindness of God, and salvation as an unmerited and undeserved favor of God.

You were doing fine until that last sentence, where we need to make a distinction as the Scriptures do. There is common grace which God loves all people, giving them rain and breath etc...(Mat. 5:45), this is the ONLY "unmerited" or "undeserved" grace of God. The grace that saves you, IS merited and deserved...because it ONLY comes to a person who enters into the New Covenant. That kind of grace is entered into through the exercise of faith, which makes it merited...

Romans 5:2
also, it is in Him - by faith - that we have access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of receiving the glory of God.

Need clarification? You see, the problem with defining grace is that for over 500 years people have used the English definitions of grace, NOT the Greek definitions of charis.

SM...
"The grace that saves you, IS merited and deserved...because it ONLY comes to a person who enters into the New Covenant."

So, you are saying that you deserved the grace that saves you? I gather further that it is to your merit that you enter into the new covenant with God and so deserve to the grace that saves you?

Before I proceed to comment on that, yes I need clarification on what is this "grace that saves you" are you talking about?   

Quote
You said "salvation is a gift that God gives to us so that we can enter into His presence for relationship". I agree. For we can enter into God's presence only when God, by His will and purpose, in accordance with His loving kindness and grace, recreate us into a new creature. God does this not because we deserve it, but as an unmerited favor from Him. That is salvation, and it is a gift from God, and it is free, and it is His work and doing.

Just for clarification, again...salvation is not unmerited, one must enter into the New Covenant in order to get saved. Second, it is not free...read the Scriptures again. God will not save a person who does not repent from his previous lifestyle of sin...it is free in the meaning of being free monetarily, but it costs you your whole life. Jesus said to "count the cost"...because the cost is HIGH when it comes to the flesh.

You said "However, God does not save according to His soveriegn will...if that was the case, all men would be saved."

I gather that you believe that salvation is merited. And that merit is gained by entering into the new covenant with God. This implies that salvation is not only God's work, but of the man as well. I don't find scriptures as saying that. What I find scriptures as saying is that salvation is of the Lord and from the Lord and belongs to the Lord.   

I also gather that you believe that salvation is not free. What do you mean by that? Haven't you said in your last post that "salvation is a gift that God gives to us"? Is a gift not freely given or is it merited and deserved? Please explain.

Quote
You said "However, God does not save according to His soveriegn will...if that was the case, all men would be saved."

Then why does God save at all if not that He willed it Himself? Was it because He must or that He was forced to save mankind or some even?

Study, Micheal...study. God does not choose to save anyone. He has paved the way to salvation through Christ, and calls to "whosoever will" to come to Him on His terms. God wants all, but gets only a few in comparison to that all.

You ask of me to study. And I do. That is one reason why I am in this forum. And what you say there does not help for it does not answer my question SM, but seems to avoid it. WHY does God save at all if not that He willed it Himself? Was it because He must or that He was forced to save mankind or some even?

Quote
For in the beginning, God created man. And this is what He said to the man (Adam) “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” As we can see, God had made no promise to save the man in case he eat and die.

No, He made no promise to save anyone, but He did make the promise to send the Savior. You are not looking at the details of Scripture.

What I was saying is that God had made no promise to save the man in case he eat and die. What you are saying is about the promise God made of sending a Savior, and so, a promise of salvation, only after Adam had sinned. Clearly, God's salvation is not out of obligation whatsoever, but is a sovereign act and will of God.   

Quote
And we know the rest of the history. So, God is under no obligation whatsoever to save the fallen Adam and Eve. So, if God now saves, it is obviously by His sovereign will. And of course we learn in scriptures that God does not save all of mankind. And there is no unrighteousness in that, for He is the Creator and He is the only Sovereign.

Again, being sovereign does NOT mean that you get everything your way. The same with God...the king is sovereign, yet people still steal from one another, they still murder one another, etc., etc. God is sovereign, yet people still kill one another, men rape women on a continual basis, babies are aborted for no other reason than as a means of birth control by adulterous women.

If God exercise the kind of sovereignty that you speak of, then none of these things would be happening because He would not be allowing it to happen. Your stand here on sovereignty is not according to the real world.


SM...
"Again, being sovereign does NOT mean that you get everything your way."

Haven't you said in one of your post in another thread "The "sovereign" will of God is what He desires to bring about no matter what, like creating the earth."? To which I said regarding this "The sovereign will of God is certain of complete fulfillment." Perhaps this does not apply with our sovereign will for so we have limited power, but definitely it is with the Almighty God, just as in creating the earth. The rest of what you said there is the moral will of God, which we see in scriptures as that may be or may not be obeyed by men, unlike His sovereign will that no man can do about or resist. 

SM...
"Your stand here on sovereignty is not according to the real world."

My stand here on sovereignty is according to the scriptures.

Here are a couple of verse to consider that speaks of the sovereignty of God.

Psalm 115:3 But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases.

Psalm 135:6 Whatever the Lord pleases He does, In heaven and in earth, In the seas and in all deep places. 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: fish153 on Tue Nov 14, 2017 - 11:37:38
Michael2012---

You are a dear brother. Thank you for all of your comments below, and the graciousness that you use in addressing SwordMaster.

SwordMaster said:
"The grace that saves you, IS merited and deserved...because it ONLY comes to a person who enters into the New Covenant."


But this sentence from SwordMaster is complete heresy. Do not allow yourself to even consider it to be true for a moment.  Grace is
NEVER merited or deserved----and praise God that you see that in Scripture. Grace does not come to someone AFTER they enter a
covenant.  Grace is what draws us to the Father in the first place. Being born-again is a complete Gift of God---becoming one of His children is
a right given to us through His Grace alone.   God does not give grace because we DO something-----God's Grace is purely and wholly a GIFT.

Michael----God bless you.  Do not allow the joy you have in the Lord to be tainted----do not allow the pure water of the Gospel to be polluted with the
heresy that destroys your joy. Praise God for His free and unmerited salvation and Grace.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Tue Nov 14, 2017 - 12:01:23
Everything good is by GOD'S FAVOR.  However, Grace is personified like WORD or LIGHT all of which are God manifesting Himself for us.  The GRACES literally like the MUSES were not nice girls.  Scripture almost always teaches the ANTITHESIS as "divine favor" in a godly sense.

It is a fact that GRACE teaches us and FAITH obey.

Eccl. 3:13 And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the GIFT OF GOD.

John 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

(http://www.piney.com/Titus.2.Grace.Jesus.Appeared.jpg)

Without God's supplier of EVERYTHING now made manifest in Jesus Christ as the IMAGE of everything the FATHER supplies.

God makes mere men into GRACEFUL SONS by the method of TEACHING us.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Thu Nov 16, 2017 - 09:35:35
It is a fact that GRACE teaches us and FAITH obey.

Frankly speaking, I find it difficult to understand what it is that you are saying. But let me just comment on some that are said in the clippings you posted on Ephesians 2:8. I'd just like to comment on what it said on Titus 2:11-12.

On Titus 2:

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

So, yes, the verse says that the grace of God has appeared. Can you expound on that in your own words?

12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

"Not all sinners are saved by grace alone". Can you expound on that in your own words?

Next, the clipping points to the phrase in v.12 "teaching us that" as to seem to point that the grace of God that appeared taught us. And that is clear enough in the passage.

Next, it points to "denying ungodliness and worldly lusts". On this it says "Grace like Word just teaches How to be saved that". But clearly, that is not what it says. It does not say anything there about HOW to be saved. What it says is that what the grace of God that appeared teaches us, that is, taught us about "denying ungodliness and worldly lusts".

Next, it points to "we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age". So it seems to want to say that Titus 2:11-12 is saying that the grace of God appeared teaching us HOW to be saved, that is, by denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present world.

But this is what Titus 2:11-12, even up to verse 13, that the grace of God appeared, teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Thu Nov 16, 2017 - 10:13:06
Quote
Next, the clipping points to the phrase in v.12 "teaching us that" as to seem to point that the grace of God that appeared taught us. And that is clear enough in the passage.

Next, it points to "denying ungodliness and worldly lusts". On this it says "Grace like Word just teaches How to be saved that". But clearly, that is not what it says. It does not say anything there about HOW to be saved. What it says is that what the grace of God that appeared teaches us, that is, taught us about "denying ungodliness and worldly lusts".

Next, it points to "we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age". So it seems to want to say that Titus 2:11-12 is saying that the grace of God appeared teaching us HOW to be saved, that is, by denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present world.


Look at Ephesians 2:

Eph. 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins [ours], hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph. 2:6 And hath raised us up together,  [at Baptism in Paul's other messages]
         and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

HOW DOES GOD SHOW ALL OF HISTORY HOW WE ARE SAVE:

Eph. 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his GRACE
           In his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye SAVED through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph. 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
       which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

(http://www.piney,com/Ephesians2.Rom6.gif)

Theophilus listed a few QUALITIES which are "NAMES" for God working through Jesus Christ.  In Titus GRACE seems PERSONIFIED as God's WORD is personified.  God is His WORD but He is WHATEVER we can imagine.  Word is Logos or God's REGULATIVE PRINCIPLE.  The Regulative or Governing principle is made somewhat Visible and Audible when Jesus speaks the WORD.  God's nature is also made audible when we speak what Jesus heard from and spoke from the Father.

This is a list made by Theophilus in defining the powers of God.  Note that Jesus said that He spoke in parables to HIDE the truth.

(http://www.piney.com/Theophilus.gif)

I will look at other questions.  It is important to read Ephesians 1 and the first verses of Ephesians 2 to answer the obvious question:

These people we already believers and SAVED.  The question is "Made SAFE from WHAT?" 


 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: grams on Fri Nov 17, 2017 - 13:21:06

[[    Kenneth Sublett  say's...................
 
These people we already believers and SAVED.  The question is "Made SAFE from WHAT?" ]]


wow  .............. you are a Christian  and do not know ??????             hell 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Fri Nov 17, 2017 - 13:44:28
When anyone quotes "saved by grace through faith" they do not grasp that believers are KEPT SAFE from something.  No one bothers to quote the FIRST verses of Paul's COMPLETE THOUGH.

Christians, Disciples are STUDENTS-ONLY of the WORD-ONLY and the pattern was defined in the wilderness..

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that PREACH him, being READ in the synagogues every sabbath day.

By direct command from the wilderness onward THAT is the meaning of the one short READING and mutually confessing the WORD each week.   Anything beyond that despises the REST brought by Jesus as the people despised God's Pattern of RESTING by rising up in their old Egyptian instrumental idolatry for which God sentenced them beyond redemption.


The Sabbath or Rest Jesus died to give his LITTLE FLOCK excludes anything you intend to purchase this Sunday.

(http://www.piney.com/Pauo.gif)

If you do or watch any of these PERFORMED with an expensive admittance ticket you are not YET SAFE.


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Tue Nov 21, 2017 - 01:28:25
Yah...but like I have said before, Strongs is not the best concordance because he didn't address grammar, only strict Greek definitions, and his concordance also has errors. The complete definition of charis is:

acceptance, benefit, favor, gift, grace, gracious, gratification, gratitude, joy, kindness, love, loving-kindness, pleasure, thanks, thanksgiving, thank-worthy, the love of God in action towards men.


Please provide links or reference where you got this complete definition you say of Charis.
 OK, understood...but you do know that the Bible does not have "grace of salvation" anywhere, right?

A combination of research over the years...from Zodhiates to Vines and Thayers, to the Theological Dictionary of the New TEstament and others.

Quote
Perhaps there is not in scriptures the phrase "grace of salvation".
   

Quite right, there isn't.

Quote
You were doing fine until that last sentence, where we need to make a distinction as the Scriptures do. There is common grace which God loves all people, giving them rain and breath etc...(Mat. 5:45), this is the ONLY "unmerited" or "undeserved" grace of God. The grace that saves you, IS merited and deserved...because it ONLY comes to a person who enters into the New Covenant. That kind of grace is entered into through the exercise of faith, which makes it merited...

Romans 5:2
also, it is in Him - by faith - that we have access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of receiving the glory of God.

Need clarification? You see, the problem with defining grace is that for over 500 years people have used the English definitions of grace, NOT the Greek definitions of charis.


"The grace that saves you, IS merited and deserved...because it ONLY comes to a person who enters into the New Covenant."

So, you are saying that you deserved the grace that saves you?


You are beginning to argue childishly again. Not deserved, but given in response to your actions. There is a difference.

Quote
I gather further that it is to your merit that you enter into the new covenant with God and so deserve to the grace that saves you?


You gather incorrectly.

Quote
Before I proceed to comment on that, yes I need clarification on what is this "grace that saves you" are you talking about?
   

I already gave it to you. The common grace of God does not save anyone, if it did, then we would be discussing universalism as a Biblical truth. It is not a Biblical truth. The grace that saves you only comes to those who enter into the New Covenant of God in Christ...because it is only given to those in that covenant relationship...

Titus 2:11
Because the loving-kindness of God has appeared, making salvation possible for all people.

This is a rendering straight from the Greek with its grammar. The grace that saves appeared in Christ, and is only given to those who are in Christ.

Quote
Just for clarification, again...salvation is not unmerited, one must enter into the New Covenant in order to get saved. Second, it is not free...read the Scriptures again. God will not save a person who does not repent from his previous lifestyle of sin...it is free in the meaning of being free monetarily, but it costs you your whole life. Jesus said to "count the cost"...because the cost is HIGH when it comes to the flesh.

You said "However, God does not save according to His soveriegn will...if that was the case, all men would be saved."

 
I gather that you believe that salvation is merited. And that merit is gained by entering into the new covenant with God. This implies that salvation is not only God's work, but of the man as well.


Once again you gather in error. Salvation is not merited, it is given as a promise to all those who meet the condition set by God. Meeting a condition does not give you "merit," it qualifies. There is a difference. You are qualified for salvation by meeting God's conditions for salvation: faith, repentance, entering into His covenant.

Quote
I don't find scriptures as saying that. What I find scriptures as saying is that salvation is of the Lord and from the Lord and belongs to the Lord.
   

You are in error in the first part, because the Scriptures do teach that.
The second part of your sentence is correct.

Quote
I also gather that you believe that salvation is not free. What do you mean by that? Haven't you said in your last post that "salvation is a gift that God gives to us"? Is a gift not freely given or is it merited and deserved? Please explain.

Gifts come in different packages...you need to stop thinking of it in a linear way. Some gifts come as a door prize - such is salvation. It is a covenant gift, and being a covenant gift, it is dependent upon somethint that you must do in order to receive it. In other words, salvation is conditional, and if you do not meet that condition, then you don't get saved.

A condition, unlike what most in Reformed Theology teach, is not the same thing as earning. Here is a conditional set: as long as you continue to draw breath, eat, and drink, you will live. Your physical life is maintained by meeting certain specific conditions. You cannot drive a car unless you put the key into the ignition and there is gas in the tank. You cannot paint your house unless you have a bucket of paint and a paint brush. The examples are endless.

So, too, according to scripture, you cannot get saved unless you choose to believe in Christ, repent from your sins, and enter into the New Covenant in Christ through water baptism...again, according to Scripture. A condition does not equate to earning, it is not a price or a fee.

Quote
Study, Micheal...study. God does not choose to save anyone. He has paved the way to salvation through Christ, and calls to "whosoever will" to come to Him on His terms. God wants all, but gets only a few in comparison to that all.

You ask of me to study. And I do. That is one reason why I am in this forum. And what you say there does not help for it does not answer my question SM, but seems to avoid it. WHY does God save at all if not that He willed it Himself? Was it because He must or that He was forced to save mankind or some even?

God designed and orchestrated the Plan of Salvation. God does not save anyone, in a way (from a certain point of view), we choose to be saved by coming to God in the way that He has made. He paved the way with the blood of Christ, and anyone who desires to have a relationship with Him will follow that way to Him. God does not choose who will be saved, He never has. He made the way and says...

Revelation 22:17
The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.


Quote
No, He made no promise to save anyone, but He did make the promise to send the Savior. You are not looking at the details of Scripture.

What I was saying is that God had made no promise to save the man in case he eat and die. What you are saying is about the promise God made of sending a Savior, and so, a promise of salvation, only after Adam had sinned. Clearly, God's salvation is not out of obligation whatsoever, but is a sovereign act and will of God.
 

Yes, God chose to save people. But why? Because He desires relationship with man...that is the reason why He created man in the first place. God does not need you, but He desires you.


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Tue Nov 21, 2017 - 01:34:00
Michael2012---

You are a dear brother. Thank you for all of your comments below, and the graciousness that you use in addressing SwordMaster.

SwordMaster said:
"The grace that saves you, IS merited and deserved...because it ONLY comes to a person who enters into the New Covenant."


But this sentence from SwordMaster is complete heresy. Do not allow yourself to even consider it to be true for a moment.  Grace is
NEVER merited or deserved----

Oh, no...of course not Fish, even when I provide Scripture that demonstrates that fact. Please, go back into hybernation...


Quote
and praise God that you see that in Scripture. Grace does not come to someone AFTER they enter a covenant.  Grace is what draws us to the Father in the first place.

Nope, just like the other "old foggies" you prefer to stick with wives tales and false teaching on the subject matter. Grace does nothing at all, but calvinism teaches that there are all kinds of graces...prevenient grace, saving grace, culling grace...all kinds. You pervert the Word of God there, fish.

Quote
Being born-again is a complete Gift of God---becoming one of His children is a right given to us through His Grace alone.
   

Wrong again. Becoming a child of God is a right that Christ makes available...not grace. Grace drew the plan for the Messiah and all that He would do, but that's all the Scriptures tell us. You read into the texts what they do not say.

Quote
God does not give grace because we DO something-----God's Grace is purely and wholly a GIFT.

Again, you have no Scriptural support for that nonsense, and I do have Scriptural support for what I told him.


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Tue Nov 21, 2017 - 09:19:04
Graces were blue-eyed blond bad girl like the Muses led by Apollon in the Greek religions.
Scripture is often the ANTITHESIS of what the progressives want to see "performed" in the name of Jesus.

Grace is the unmerited favor.  If someone sends you a check for millions of dollars which YOU could never EARN that Grace is never available to spiritual slugs.  You have to believe that the check is real and not from a Nigearian widow. You have to go to the bank.  You have to ENDORSE or accept the free money.  You then have the unmerited grace of millions of dollars in your bank account.

God Who is Spirit without flesh and bones is made flesh in many forms--all that you can think of.
Makes His Word, Wisdom and Grace visible and audible.
Grace from God is not just unmerited favor but the POWER and KNOWLEDGE to accept that Grace.
Peter told the pilgrims in Jerusalem how to "save themselves" from that Crooked Race and flee Jerusalem.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them [the Church] about three thousand souls.

EXCUSE MY PICTURE BUT TRUTH IS PRESENTED IN MANY PARALLEL FORMS SO THAT TRUTH IS HIDDEN IN PLAIN SIGHT.

Paul teaches the same things in many letters because The Spirit OF Christ prophesied in Isaiah 1, Jesus obeyed the PATTERN to teach, Jesus commanded the same pattern, Peter and others obeyed and received the GRACE which was free in that they could not save themselves but is available only to the obedient in nature.  How ungracious to fight against all of Scripture and REFUSE to accept GRACE which teaches you HOW to actively accept the free gift.

(http://www.piney.com/Titus.2.Acts.2.New.gif)

Titus 3:5 Not by works of RIGHTEOUSNESS which we have done,
        but according to his mercy he saved us,
        by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [Our spirit is regenerated like a new birth]

Obeying that FORM is TUPOS which is a Pattern INTENDED to be IMITATED.  Only those who obeyed that TUPOS were then FREE FROM SIN.  Jesus is the founder of His Spiritual Creation or FAMILY and those who argue with HIS example and command is TOO HARD for those who want God to INFUSE something into them while they repose.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: fish153 on Tue Nov 21, 2017 - 14:22:12
Hibernation is spelled with an "i" not a "y".

SM---you always SAY you have demonstrated something, when the fact is you have used heresy to do so.

You are an example of what Paul was talking about in Galatians. You are teaching "another Gospel".  And it
is a Gospel that quenches the work of the Holy Spirit, and perverts the Word of God.

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Tue Nov 21, 2017 - 16:19:42
Rom. 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering;
        not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom. 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom. 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom. 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing
        seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom. 2:8 But unto them that are contentious,
        and do not obey the truth,
        but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom. 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom. 2:10 But glory, honour,
         and peace, to every man that worketh good,
         to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom. 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom. 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law:
         and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God,
         but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom. 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law,
        do by nature the things contained in the law,
         these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom. 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts,
         their CONSCIENCE also bearing witness,
         and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Rom. 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Tue Nov 21, 2017 - 16:28:23
Hibernation is spelled with an "i" not a "y".

SM---you always SAY you have demonstrated something, when the fact is you have used heresy to do so.

You are an example of what Paul was talking about in Galatians. You are teaching "another Gospel".  And it
is a Gospel that quenches the work of the Holy Spirit, and perverts the Word of God.

But fish, be careful with your accusation.  Some of us feel that you are teaching "another Gospel".
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: e.r.m. on Tue Nov 21, 2017 - 16:42:48
SwordMaster,
Quote
Grace does not save anyone. Grace is the love of God in action towards us. Grace is what prompted God to make a plan of salvation, and here, charis is better translated as favor, not grace.
Grace is often treated like pixie dust.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Nov 21, 2017 - 18:02:39
Grace is often treated like pixie dust.
That's a great quote.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: e.r.m. on Tue Nov 21, 2017 - 18:08:16
Thank you.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: fish153 on Tue Nov 21, 2017 - 18:59:27
4WD said-----

>>>But fish, be careful with your accusation.  Some of us feel that you are teaching "another Gospel".<<

Besides SwordMaster and Thaddeus, you are the only other one who is stating this.  SwordMaster and Thaddeus are both heretics---
so if you want to join them, fine.  I would suggest you read the book of Galatians to get an idea of why I state what I do (and many
others on the board do also).  Wouldn't you agree that 95% of Swordmaster's posts are refutations of heresy claims made by others about his
docrtine? Yes---they most surely are. He is always arguing HIS theology.

"If anyone, even an angel from Heaven preaches another Gospel, let him be cursed"----the Apostle Paul.   Paul most certainly was not being
careful in his judgments was he?
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Tue Nov 21, 2017 - 21:32:55
Busy trying to clean up my files in case I am raptured.  Here is a table I made on Mark 16.

We know that in a POSITIVE sense Jesus said that He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.

Now, it is important to put a hard stop there. We know what it takes TO BE SAVED.

However, he that believeth not shall be damned allows false teachers to jump in having ignored the POSITIVE and say "that it does not say that he that is NOT BAPTIZED shall be lost and that is a fact.  He Asserts and does not leave any holes in the donut.

Here is a study on BELIEVETH NOT.  I have this on line somewhere so that you can click on the links.

(http://www.piney.com/ApistosA.gif)
(http://www.piney.com/ApistosB.gif)
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Wed Nov 22, 2017 - 00:40:14
Quote
Please provide links or reference where you got this complete definition you say of Charis.
A combination of research over the years...from Zodhiates to Vines and Thayers, to the Theological Dictionary of the New TEstament and others.

That is not a link. Anyway, as I have pointed out to you, even if you prefer to translate charis with favor or kindness, it does not change what I meant ~ salvation comes from the loving kindness of God, and is an unmerited and undeserved favor of God.   

SM...
Quote
"The grace that saves you, IS merited and deserved...because it ONLY comes to a person who enters into the New Covenant."

Michael...
Quote
So, you are saying that you deserved the grace that saves you?

You are beginning to argue childishly again. Not deserved, but given in response to your actions. There is a difference.

No I'm not. And you are going back to speak not nice again. These are your words "The grace that saves you, IS merited and deserved"

Quote
I gather further that it is to your merit that you enter into the new covenant with God and so deserve to the grace that saves you?

You gather incorrectly.

I gather correctly I have to say. Again, these are your very own words "The grace that saves you, IS merited and deserved"

Quote
Before I proceed to comment on that, yes I need clarification on what is this "grace that saves you" are you talking about?
   

I already gave it to you. The common grace of God does not save anyone, if it did, then we would be discussing universalism as a Biblical truth. It is not a Biblical truth. The grace that saves you only comes to those who enter into the New Covenant of God in Christ...because it is only given to those in that covenant relationship...

Titus 2:11
Because the loving-kindness of God has appeared, making salvation possible for all people.

This is a rendering straight from the Greek with its grammar. The grace that saves appeared in Christ, and is only given to those who are in Christ.

I understand that you are saying that the "grace that saves" that you are taking about is that "grace" which is given to those who enter into the New Covenant of God. And I gather from you further that the "grace that saves" appeared, that is, with reference to your translation of Titus 2:11, is the loving kindness of God. So you mean to say that this grace that saves or if you prefer, the loving kindness of God have appeared, and this made salvation possible for all people? Of course you have your own translation of the Greek, and understandably you go with your translation. But most, if not all, translations, translates this denoting basically one and the same thought, as "bringing salvation" to all people, and as describing grace. That is far from the thought in your own translation.

Besides, if you say that this "grace that saves", is only given to those in that New Covenant relationship in Christ, then those who lived before Christ did not receive this "grace that saves", and so are not saved. Do you mean that none of them were saved by this "grace that saves"? Of course that is not the case.
 
Quote
You said "However, God does not save according to His soveriegn will...if that was the case, all men would be saved."
 
I gather that you believe that salvation is merited. And that merit is gained by entering into the new covenant with God. This implies that salvation is not only God's work, but of the man as well.

Once again you gather in error. Salvation is not merited, it is given as a promise to all those who meet the condition set by God. Meeting a condition does not give you "merit," it qualifies. There is a difference. You are qualified for salvation by meeting God's conditions for salvation: faith, repentance, entering into His covenant.
   
And once again, you are going against what you said, that is, "The grace that saves you, IS merited and deserved"

But let me address what you now say here. So, "you are qualified for salvation by meeting God's conditions for salvation: faith, repentance, entering into His covenant". That clearly puts you to work, is it not? You have to do something to be qualified for salvation. And so I said "this implies that salvation is not only God's work, but of the man as well". I know you don't consider meeting God's conditions for salvation as your work or as work. And that means it is all God's work.
 
Quote
I gather that you believe that salvation is merited. And that merit is gained by entering into the new covenant with God. This implies that salvation is not only God's work, but of the man as well. I don't find scriptures as saying that. What I find scriptures as saying is that salvation is of the Lord and from the Lord and belongs to the Lord.

You are in error in the first part, because the Scriptures do teach that.
The second part of your sentence is correct.

If so, please show in scriptures which says that salvation is not only God's work, but of the man as well.

Quote
I also gather that you believe that salvation is not free. What do you mean by that? Haven't you said in your last post that "salvation is a gift that God gives to us"? Is a gift not freely given or is it merited and deserved? Please explain.

Gifts come in different packages...you need to stop thinking of it in a linear way. Some gifts come as a door prize - such is salvation. It is a covenant gift, and being a covenant gift, it is dependent upon somethint that you must do in order to receive it. In other words, salvation is conditional, and if you do not meet that condition, then you don't get saved.

A condition, unlike what most in Reformed Theology teach, is not the same thing as earning. Here is a conditional set: as long as you continue to draw breath, eat, and drink, you will live. Your physical life is maintained by meeting certain specific conditions. You cannot drive a car unless you put the key into the ignition and there is gas in the tank. You cannot paint your house unless you have a bucket of paint and a paint brush. The examples are endless.

So, too, according to scripture, you cannot get saved unless you choose to believe in Christ, repent from your sins, and enter into the New Covenant in Christ through water baptism...again, according to Scripture. A condition does not equate to earning, it is not a price or a fee.

So in other words, you mean to say that salvation is a gift, but although it is free, it is a conditional gift, which one receives only when he enters into the New Covenant in Christ. 

Consider this gift:

John 4:10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.”

What do you say is this "gift of God"? Is this gift free? Is this gift conditional or not?

Quote
You ask of me to study. And I do. That is one reason why I am in this forum. And what you say there does not help for it does not answer my question SM, but seems to avoid it. WHY does God save at all if not that He willed it Himself? Was it because He must or that He was forced to save mankind or some even?

God designed and orchestrated the Plan of Salvation. God does not save anyone, in a way (from a certain point of view), we choose to be saved by coming to God in the way that He has made. He paved the way with the blood of Christ, and anyone who desires to have a relationship with Him will follow that way to Him. God does not choose who will be saved, He never has. He made the way and says...

Revelation 22:17
The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.

To take you back to the issue of sovereignty, the question remains, WHY does God save at all if not that He willed it Himself? Was it because He must or that He was forced to save mankind or some even? 
 
SM...
Quote
No, He made no promise to save anyone, but He did make the promise to send the Savior. You are not looking at the details of Scripture.

Micahel...
Quote
What I was saying is that God had made no promise to save the man in case he eat and die. What you are saying is about the promise God made of sending a Savior, and so, a promise of salvation, only after Adam had sinned. Clearly, God's salvation is not out of obligation whatsoever, but is a sovereign act and will of God.

Yes, God chose to save people. But why? Because He desires relationship with man...that is the reason why He created man in the first place. God does not need you, but He desires you.

That's right, God chose to save man. And that came out of His sovereign will. And to the people whom God saves, God gives and grants them repentance.

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Wed Nov 22, 2017 - 01:04:29
Grace does nothing at all...

Well apparently, now it's out in the clear, what Grace is for you. Exactly opposite to what scriptures say that we are saved by grace or by the loving kindness of God. Unlike in the case of man, God is ever, always, and without fail effectively do and actually save those who receives His "saving" grace or loving kindness or favor.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Nov 22, 2017 - 09:28:16
Busy trying to clean up my files in case I am raptured.
rofl

But really, do you have someone who can curate that museum?
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Nov 22, 2017 - 09:31:18
Quote from: Sword Master
Grace does nothing at all...
Well apparently, now it's out in the clear, what Grace is for you. Exactly opposite to what scriptures say that we are saved by grace or by the loving kindness of God. Unlike in the case of man, God is ever, always, and without fail effectively do and actually save those who receives His "saving" grace or loving kindness or favor.
I agree with SM.  God does something; not grace.  It's not like grace is a separate person, or some sort of salvation-dealing machine.

Grace is WHY God does something.  Not pixie dust He sprinkles on us to save us.

Jarrod
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Wed Nov 22, 2017 - 09:56:37
Quote
But really, do you have someone who can curate that museum?

No, are you volunteering?  I will turn 87 in about a month.  My parents made it to 94.5 and 95.5 with good minds but things happen.
We have moved into town and have our 115 acre Farm-House up for sale. Too much for my 83 year old wife who cannot stand a weed.

I have downloaded everything I have from a server but have hoards of other collected data from Clay Tablets onward.

Links in very bad shape but I never get time or energy to repair.

Successful requests for pages in last 7 days 70920

I am an eclectic collector of the important documents from Clay Tablets Onward.  Oxford has a huge collection with colors to guide scholars: they gave me permission to post just the English translation.  Most of them are annotated and cross linked to the Bible..

The files could die with me.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Wed Nov 22, 2017 - 10:21:56
Quote
Well apparently, now it's out in the clear, what Grace is for you. Exactly opposite to what scriptures say that we are saved by grace or by the loving kindness of God. Unlike in the case of man, God is ever, always, and without fail effectively do and actually save those who receives His "saving" grace or loving kindness or favor.
I agree with SM.  God does something; not grace.  It's not like grace is a separate person, or some sort of salvation-dealing machine.

Grace is WHY God does something.  Not pixie dust He sprinkles on us to save us.

Jarrod

Of course, the saving grace of God is not some pixie dust. And of course God does something in regard to salvation, and that is what we can call His work of salvation ~ a gift from Him, to even us who are sinners against Him. And that's grace. When one looks at what God had done in this regard, we see not only His amazing grace, but also His great and awesome wisdom and glory. He is God Almighty, worthy of the highest and infinite praise, honor, and glory, forever and ever.   
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: e.r.m. on Wed Nov 22, 2017 - 11:40:12
Yup. Grace is an attribute of God.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Wed Nov 22, 2017 - 12:21:25
Some ways GRACE is used.

Three Graces of Ugliness

(http://www.piney.com/3.Graces.Ugliness.gif)

Three Graces as Triple Goddesses

(http://www.piney.com/TRIPLEGODDESS1.gif)

Some ways that grace is used.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dxa%2Fris&highlight=grace

Melody in Ephesians 5 is PSALLO which is never used of musical melody.

In Colossians 3 Paul substitutes the word GRACE. Both melody and grace are QUALITIES OF SPEECH and never tuneful.

de kh. kata metron iousēs glōssēs]

Hesiod Works and Days
[720] The best treasure a man can have is a sparing tongue, and the greatest PLEASURE, one that moves orderly; for if you speak evil, you yourself will soon be worse spoken of. Do not be boorish at a common feast where there are many guests; the pleasure is greatest and the expense is least.



Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Tue Dec 05, 2017 - 21:36:28
oops...

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Tue Dec 05, 2017 - 21:41:31
4WD said-----

>>>But fish, be careful with your accusation.  Some of us feel that you are teaching "another Gospel".<<

Besides SwordMaster and Thaddeus, you are the only other one who is stating this.  SwordMaster and Thaddeus are both heretics---
so if you want to join them, fine.  I would suggest you read the book of Galatians to get an idea of why I state what I do (and many
others on the board do also).  Wouldn't you agree that 95% of Swordmaster's posts are refutations of heresy claims made by others about his
docrtine? Yes---they most surely are. He is always arguing HIS theology.

"If anyone, even an angel from Heaven preaches another Gospel, let him be cursed"----the Apostle Paul.   Paul most certainly was not being
careful in his judgments was he?

As usual, Fish...being a calvinist...you stretch your interpretation of what Scripture is actually talking about.

You are a heretic, Fish, because you subscribe to the heretical doctrines of calvin...a lawyer who knew nothing about the Bible until the Reformation started and decided that he wanted to be a part of it. He didn't know how to study the Bible (just like you) and practically every doctrine he outlined has a thread of heretical nonsense...which is exactly what we would expect to find in someone's writings on a subject matter that he didn't know anything about previously.

Nice try, but we don't preach heresy...we just understand the Scriptures better than you do.


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Tue Dec 05, 2017 - 21:43:26
Quote
Well apparently, now it's out in the clear, what Grace is for you. Exactly opposite to what scriptures say that we are saved by grace or by the loving kindness of God. Unlike in the case of man, God is ever, always, and without fail effectively do and actually save those who receives His "saving" grace or loving kindness or favor.

I agree with SM.  God does something; not grace.  It's not like grace is a separate person, or some sort of salvation-dealing machine.

Grace is WHY God does something.  Not pixie dust He sprinkles on us to save us.

Jarrod

 ::thumbup:: ::thumbup:: ::thumbup::


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Tue Dec 05, 2017 - 23:26:02
Quote
You are a heretic, Fish, because you subscribe to the heretical doctrines of calvin...a lawyer who knew nothing about the Bible until the Reformation started and decided that he wanted to be a part of it. He didn't know how to study the Bible (just like you) and practically every doctrine he outlined has a thread of heretical nonsense...which is exactly what we would expect to find in someone's writings on a subject matter that he didn't know anything about previously.

It is close to impossible whether Calvin is defining the "enemies" teaching and when He is refuting it.  One could use Calvin to define free will and I am quite certain that no modern Calvinists has or can plow through his material.  Modern's use textbooks written by professors who read textbooks written by professors and that is called intellectual incest.

He seems quite rational until he tiptoes into a bed of TULIPS and then, like our posters, he just picks verses to fit the preconception.

Beside that, he was a nice fellow who allowed you to be burned with wet wood so you would die before it got too hot.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Wed Dec 06, 2017 - 04:17:21
You are a heretic, Fish, because you subscribe to the heretical doctrines of calvin...a lawyer who knew nothing about the Bible until the Reformation started and decided that he wanted to be a part of it. He didn't know how to study the Bible (just like you) and practically every doctrine he outlined has a thread of heretical nonsense...which is exactly what we would expect to find in someone's writings on a subject matter that he didn't know anything about previously.
Sir, you are full pride. Pride cause men to look down on others, thinking they have a corner on the truth, when in fact they would know what truth was if it smacked them right between the eyes. Fish is not a heretic just because you say so~he's a brother that may need some conversion like we ALL do in some area unless your name is Sword"MASTER" then he has more truth than Jesus did! Poor Jesus, too bad he did not live in this generation in which Sword "MASTER" was born!
Quote from: Sanballat aka SwordMaster
because you subscribe to the heretical doctrines of calvin
I hate to inform you, but Fish does not embrace Calvinism and neither does anyone of this forum except this "high Calvinist" who is posting this post to you. I would know better than you concerning these things since I have embraced what people call Calvinism for my entire Christian life just about~ save one or two years in my learning infant state...more than forty-five years. Almost as long as you have been born most likely.
Quote from: The Historian aka SwordMaster
heretical doctrines of calvin...a lawyer who knew nothing about the Bible until the Reformation started and decided that he wanted to be a part of it. He didn't know how to study the Bible (just like you) and practically every doctrine he outlined has a thread of heretical nonsense...which is exactly what we would expect to find in someone's writings on a subject matter that he didn't know anything about previously
Well now, you are not as wise as you want others to believe, or you are just plain dumb concerning Calvin. You know sir, I would be careful speaking against men of God whom you know nothing of.  I will not defend a man, for all men have their weakness, even the best, yet I have read Some of Calvin and I can assure you that he was the most worthy teacher since the Apostles even above Luther~concerning practical godliness he's the best, and unless you have read his works then you should keep your mouth shut, it just may save you a few stripes from God!  You have sinfully portrayed a man of God~shame on you! Calvin wrote his Institutes on the Christian religion at a tender age of twenty-seven! What were you doing at twenty-seven? Let me guess....not too far removed from messing all over yourself!
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: fish153 on Thu Dec 07, 2017 - 14:11:59
SM said-----

>>>Nice try, but we don't preach heresy...we just understand the Scriptures better than you do.<<<

I would of course have to disagree SwordMaster. I don't think you understand the scriptures very well at all. You are approaching the
scriptures with the Natural mind, and not the enlightening work of the Holy Spirit. You need to read the Book of Galatians and ask the
Lord to explain it to you clearly.   

I do want to say SM that I do not want God to judge you. I really don't wish that on you. I would much rather see you rejoicing before the
throne of God on that day than shrinking away in sorrow for having taught heresy to the people of God. So I can only pray that the Lord in
His great mercy will open your eyes and help you to see how far off base you are from what He is actually teaching us.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: grams on Fri Dec 08, 2017 - 05:56:42

[b ]    Eph. 2:

     
5

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
 

6

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
 

7

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
 

8

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
 

9

Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 
  [/b]
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Fri Dec 08, 2017 - 06:39:32
I do want to say SM that I do not want God to judge you. I really don't wish that on you. I would much rather see you rejoicing before the
throne of God on that day than shrinking away in sorrow for having taught heresy to the people of God.
You say you do not want God to judge him.  First, you just judged him.  Second, we shall all stand at the Judgement seat of Christ to be judged.  We are saved by faith, we are judged by works.  Having said that, it is important to realize that the judgement that we shall all submit to is not the deciding factor in where we will spend eternity.  But we will be judged.  I realize that you and SM do not agree, but I see no evidence that either or you have a faith that "exceeds" the other.  I think SM is wrong about some things.  I think you are no less wrong about some things.  I see no indication that the heresy you teach to the people of God is any less than the heresy of SM.  SM's works teaching is no less a heresy than is your faith alone teaching.

All of this is to say that you should be very careful in calling out anyone for not having "open eyes" and not realizing how "far off base" they are from what He is actually teaching us.  I thank God continually that "being off base" is not necessarily the road to condemnation.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: fish153 on Fri Dec 08, 2017 - 10:26:40
4WD-----

I have to completely disagree of course.  SM is teaching "another gospel"----if you want to embrace that, that is your prerogative. I would ask that you too read
Galatians 4WD. You will see that Paul the Apostle was very very stern with those preaching another gospel.  You are correct----I am judging Swordmaster----and I
am judging him from the doctrine he teaches, which is contrary to the Word of God.

When I says I do not want SwordMaster to be "judged" what I am stating is that there is still time.  We will all stand before the Judgement seat of Christ.  In 1 John he says
that some will "shrink back" on that day in shame---they will not be damned---but they will be ashamed for what they have taught others----and for improperly representing
Jesus Christ.  I am by no means perfect. But I also realize that I feel a responsibility to "call out" SwordMaster for his teachings.  If I did not I would be an unfatihful brother
in the Lord.  I will continue to pray for SM that the Lord will open his eyes----he is teaching a gospel very similar to the legalistic teaching the Galatians fell into.  You may dis-
agree----fine.  I can clearly see it in his teaching----and so have MANY others. All the best to you.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Fri Dec 08, 2017 - 11:23:58
4WD-----

I have to completely disagree of course.  SM is teaching "another gospel"----if you want to embrace that, that is your prerogative. I would ask that you too read
Galatians 4WD. You will see that Paul the Apostle was very very stern with those preaching another gospel.  You are correct----I am judging Swordmaster----and I
am judging him from the doctrine he teaches, which is contrary to the Word of God.

When I says I do not want SwordMaster to be "judged" what I am stating is that there is still time.  We will all stand before the Judgement seat of Christ.  In 1 John he says
that some will "shrink back" on that day in shame---they will not be damned---but they will be ashamed for what they have taught others----and for improperly representing
Jesus Christ.  I am by no means perfect. But I also realize that I feel a responsibility to "call out" SwordMaster for his teachings.  If I did not I would be an unfatihful brother
in the Lord.  I will continue to pray for SM that the Lord will open his eyes----he is teaching a gospel very similar to the legalistic teaching the Galatians fell into.  You may dis-
agree----fine.  I can clearly see it in his teaching----and so have MANY others. All the best to you.

I am not embracing anything.  I agree with some of what SM says, but certainly not all of it.  I agree with some of what you say, but certainly not all of it.

Fish, I think you teach another gospel.  It is not the another gospel that SM teaches but it is not the gospel that Paul teaches either.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: fish153 on Fri Dec 08, 2017 - 12:23:27
4WD--

Understood.  But any Gospel that teaches we receive Grace AFTER we enter a convenant is not the true Gospel. I just hope you understand
and see that clearly.  That is what SM teaches.  God bless you.

Thanks, Joe
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Jaime on Fri Dec 08, 2017 - 12:59:22
We receive grace when we are IN Christ. That's how I understand SM's teaching, and agree with him. The Grace is not "credited" to us outside of being IN Christ.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Texas Conservative on Fri Dec 08, 2017 - 13:06:23
We receive grace when we are IN Christ. That's what how I understand SM's teaching, and agree with him. The Grace is not "credited" to us outside of being IN Christ.

It is credited it to us at faith.  It was credited to Abraham at belief.  Baptism is a part of faith.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: fish153 on Fri Dec 08, 2017 - 14:22:25
Jaime said---

>>>We receive grace when we are IN Christ. That's what how I understand SM's teaching, and agree with him. The Grace is not "credited" to us outside of being IN Christ<<<

This statement is untrue.  We do not receive Grace until we are IN Christ------ "By Grace ARE YE SAVED through faith..."   SM says grace is merited and we receive it AFTER we enter Covenant with Christ.  No---it is The Grace of God that SAVES US in the first place.  We are led to Christ by the Grace of God.   That is why Paul clearly states "Not of works lest any man should boast"--if we "merited" grace by doing something it would no longer be grace!!  That is the whole point.  And that is why what SM teaches is heresy----and "another gospel".

As our dear sister "grams" repeats time and again-- EPHESIANS 2:4-9.  "BUT GOD....." (despite us). Intervention of the Lord---  That is Grace!!  We were in the same boat as every lost person, BUT GOD WHO IS RICH IN MERCY stepped into our paths, and led us to Jesus Christ for SALVATIONTHAT is the Grace of God---not something we MERIT by entering a covenant---GOD FORBID!!!   That is a FALSE GOSPEL.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Jaime on Fri Dec 08, 2017 - 14:30:03
Our faith is consummated in baptism, where we are baptised into Christ. Similar to a wedding ceremony.

Romans 6:3 or do you not know, that as many of us who are baptized INto Christ were baptized into his death.

Romans 8:1 There is now no condemnation to those who are IN Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

2 Cor. 5:17 IN Him we have redemption, through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace.

Congruant with the scriptural notion of baptism for the remission of sins. IN Him. Not to mention the scriptural notion of the indwelling gift of the Holy spirit.

I’m making those statememts based upon ALL salvational scriptures applying. Which they do CUMULATIVELY of course.


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Jaime on Fri Dec 08, 2017 - 14:42:40
Fish, nothing I said above indicates or infers that we earn or merit anything. Because we don’t. Our acceptance of the gift of grace is NOT meritorious of that grace.

Being IN Christ is the key. Of course Belief, Repentance, and Confessing with our lips are also involved with Faith. By grace we are saved through faith in Christ Jesus. Grams always quotes the perfectly applicable verse in Eph 2 correctly.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Fri Dec 08, 2017 - 15:36:07
It is credited it to us at faith.  It was credited to Abraham at belief.  Baptism is a part of faith.
That is not quite true.  Baptism is a result of faith, but it isn't a part of it any more than, say, repentance or confession. They are separate issues or actions.  I know too many people, probably most who post here that think they have faith, but reject baptism. 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Fri Dec 08, 2017 - 15:40:26
Jaime said---

>>>We receive grace when we are IN Christ. That's what how I understand SM's teaching, and agree with him. The Grace is not "credited" to us outside of being IN Christ<<<

This statement is untrue.  We do not receive Grace until we are IN Christ------ "By Grace ARE YE SAVED through faith..."   SM says grace is merited and we receive it AFTER we enter Covenant with Christ.  No---it is The Grace of God that SAVES US in the first place.  We are led to Christ by the Grace of God.   That is why Paul clearly states "Not of works lest any man should boast"--if we "merited" grace by doing something it would no longer be grace!!  That is the whole point.  And that is why what SM teaches is heresy----and "another gospel".

As our dear sister "grams" repeats time and again-- EPHESIANS 2:4-9.  "BUT GOD....." (despite us). Intervention of the Lord---  That is Grace!!  We were in the same boat as every lost person, BUT GOD WHO IS RICH IN MERCY stepped into our paths, and led us to Jesus Christ for SALVATIONTHAT is the Grace of God---not something we MERIT by entering a covenant---GOD FORBID!!!   That is a FALSE GOSPEL.

fish, you and Jaime are not using the term Grace in the same way.  And unfortunately that is not all that uncommon.  That is a large part of why we all talk past one another so often.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Fri Dec 08, 2017 - 16:05:00
4WD,
Quote
fish, you and Jaime are not using the term Grace in the same way.  And unfortunately that is not all that uncommon.  That is a large part of why we all talk past one another so often.
maybe is might benefit some to  check on the difference  between uncreated energies of God and created energies of God.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Fri Dec 08, 2017 - 16:16:34
Hello Thaddaeus, We haven't seen you here for some time.  It is good to see you back.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 20:29:20
SM said-----

>>>Nice try, but we don't preach heresy...we just understand the Scriptures better than you do.<<<

I would of course have to disagree SwordMaster. I don't think you understand the scriptures very well at all. You are approaching the
scriptures with the Natural mind, and not the enlightening work of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, yes, yes, Fish, that is the standard calvinist response when you have no Scriptural authority to stand upon. If there are two mechanics in town, and you know diddly squat about vehicle engines, when your engine stops running, which mechanic are you going to take your car to? The one who may only have been a mechanic for 5 years but because of his understanding of things, knows more than the guy who has been a mechanic for 15 years, or the 15 year mechanic who doesn't know half as much as the 5 year mechanic because he really doesn't care...he just wants to fix your car so he gets some money.

One scientist of three specialists understands his field more because of insight. One chef has better tasting meals out of the other three that work in his kitchen, simply because he applies himself more and thinks about what he is doing. One investigator catches more criminals than the other three in his office, because he applies himself to details and has insight into things that the other don't.

Hence your dilema...we may both be students of the Scriptures, but I have a better grasp of them because I have insight and I use my brain and look at the details of Scripture. You don't. All you do is defend your bias without thinking. Game over.

Quote
You need to read the Book of Galatians and ask the Lord to explain it to you clearly.
   

Actually, you need to spend about 10 days in solid unceasing prayer, and ask God to open your eyes. When you spend more time in the Word than you do in prayer, you will always come out on the short end. That is just a proven fact.

Quote
I do want to say SM that I do not want God to judge you. I really don't wish that on you. I would much rather see you rejoicing before the
throne of God on that day than shrinking away in sorrow for having taught heresy to the people of God. So I can only pray that the Lord in
His great mercy will open your eyes and help you to see how far off base you are from what He is actually teaching us.

Worry about yourself Fish...because I am not the one teaching heresy here. As I stated before, Calvinism is a cancer in the Body of Christ, and I can, and have, demonstrated that fact clearly now many times.

But, as always, nice game-playing...

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 20:35:34
4WD-----

I have to completely disagree of course.  SM is teaching "another gospel"----if you want to embrace that, that is your prerogative. I would ask that you too read
Galatians 4WD. You will see that Paul the Apostle was very very stern with those preaching another gospel.  You are correct----I am judging Swordmaster----and I
am judging him from the doctrine he teaches, which is contrary to the Word of God.

When I says I do not want SwordMaster to be "judged" what I am stating is that there is still time.  We will all stand before the Judgement seat of Christ.  In 1 John he says
that some will "shrink back" on that day in shame---they will not be damned---but they will be ashamed for what they have taught others----and for improperly representing
Jesus Christ.  I am by no means perfect. But I also realize that I feel a responsibility to "call out" SwordMaster for his teachings.  If I did not I would be an unfatihful brother
in the Lord.  I will continue to pray for SM that the Lord will open his eyes----he is teaching a gospel very similar to the legalistic teaching the Galatians fell into.  You may dis-
agree----fine.  I can clearly see it in his teaching----and so have MANY others. All the best to you.


sorry fish, but all you are doing is pleading your carnal bias, you are not calling me out on anything.

If you had called me out on something, then you would have provided evidence against what I stated...Scriptural evidence...that is correctly interpreted according to the rest of Scripture. Yet you have never done this. What you do, is say, "No, you are in sin, you are wrong, grace, grace, grace..."

Sorry, but as I have stated before, I will meet you, or anyone, any time on the debate forum so that we don't get bogged down with 100 posts from others, and defend what I teach down to the detail. You and others on your side of the fence have repeated refused to take up that challenge, using the carnal excuse that I am not worth the trouble.

If that is indeed the case...then stop posting rebuttals to what I say, because I am not worth your effort. Either that, or take the challenge and shut me up...if you can.

As the old saying goes...put up, or shut up.

Merry Christmas

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 20:40:24
4WD--

Understood.  But any Gospel that teaches we receive Grace AFTER we enter a convenant is not the true Gospel. I just hope you understand
and see that clearly.  That is what SM teaches.  God bless you.

Thanks, Joe

As I have clearly stated, there are two species of grace in Scripture. The common grace with which God loves all people in, both sinner and saved, but this grace is not saving grace. Then there is saving grace, which only comes to the person who is in Christ, just as the Scriptures teach.

Your refusal to acknowledge these facts is your problem, but they are clearly taught in the Scriptures. The problem here is, yet once again, that you cling to your dead carnal bias and defend it tooth and nail, when it is not according to the intended meaning of the Scriptures. You refuse to look at the evidence because you are like those old men who will cling to their beliefs no matter what, to the bitter end, whether those beliefs are right or wrong.

If you understood that the NT is not a testament, but is a covenant, then you just might be able to understand what I say. Since you don't, and don't want to understand, your blood is upon your own head because of your religious attitude towards Scripture.

Again, Merry Christmas.


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 20:54:51
Jaime said---

>>>We receive grace when we are IN Christ. That's what how I understand SM's teaching, and agree with him. The Grace is not "credited" to us outside of being IN Christ<<<

This statement is untrue.  We do not receive Grace until we are IN Christ------ "By Grace ARE YE SAVED through faith..."   SM says grace is merited and we receive it AFTER we enter Covenant with Christ.  No---it is The Grace of God that SAVES US in the first place.

No, fish, grace saves no one. If you used a half way descent version of the Bible, you might be able to see that. There is no "by" in the Greek, neither in word nor being implied. The verse more accurately reads, "Because in favor you were saved..." because the key words there are in the Dative. No one is saved by grace, and when we understand that grace is God's love in action towards us, we then accurately understand that His love is His motivation for doing what He has done. You are not even saved by His love...because what His love prompted Him to do was to make a way for us to be saved.

Your backwoods theology is no more Scripture than Mormon theology.

Quote
We are led to Christ by the Grace of God.   That is why Paul clearly states "Not of works lest any man should boast"--if we "merited" grace by doing something it would no longer be grace!!  That is the whole point.  And that is why what SM teaches is heresy----and "another gospel".

Like I said in my last post, fish, you don't understand the Scriptures as well as I do. I do not advocate that you can work your way to salvation, and if you say that I have, then you are a liar. You do know where liars go, right, fish? I will say it again, no man can save himself by anything that he can ever do. Why? Because sin is against God, and I cannot forgive myself in God's place for sins that I have committed against Him, can I? No, I cannot.

Since only God can forgive my sins against Him, and salvation is all about God forgiving me of my sins, then I cannot save myself. No one can. However, you are still under the false impression that salvation and eternal life are the same animals, and they are not. If you had the ability to study the Bible in detail, you would see (unless you are spiritually blinded by your carnal bias) that their natures, functions, and purposes are different. They are not the same thing.

Once a person gets saved (forgiven of his past sins against God, forgiven by God Himself), we are told in Scripture that we maintain our covenant relationship with Him (eternal life) by walking in obedience to Him. Notice I said that we maintain our having eternal life...NOT salvation...because they are not the same thing.

Quote
As our dear sister "grams" repeats time and again-- EPHESIANS 2:4-9.  "BUT GOD....." (despite us). Intervention of the Lord---  That is Grace!!  We were in the same boat as every lost person, BUT GOD WHO IS RICH IN MERCY stepped into our paths, and led us to Jesus Christ for SALVATIONTHAT is the Grace of God---not something we MERIT by entering a covenant---GOD FORBID!!!   That is a FALSE GOSPEL.

No, Fish, but you consistently cling to the false teachings of calvinism, in that merit is taught to be working your way into God's good graces. By your definition, repentance is a work, faith is a work, and the list goes on and on. You can't have it both ways, Fish...you claim "work" only when it suits your false theology, but embrace a work if it goes along with your false theology.

Try again.

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Gerhard Ebersöhn on Thu Dec 14, 2017 - 11:39:30
Ephesians 2:8 (KJV)
8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ever seen this,

'By grace are you saved-- through faith that is not of yourselves: grace and faith are the gift of salvation from God.' ?

That's true, isn't it? Then can't it be accepted for correct translation as well?

 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Thu Dec 14, 2017 - 19:00:13
Ephesians 1 comes before Ephesians 2 to prove that Paul is writing to people who ARE SAVED already.

(http://www.piney.com/Ephesians.1.Grams.jpg)

Therefore, Ephesians 2 speaks of REMAINING SAVE by the Grace of God and FAITHFULNESS.  You still need to be a disciple and ask SAFE FROM WHAT?

Irenaeus Apostolic Preaching: 3. Now, that we may not suffer ought of this kind, we must needs hold the rule of the faith without deviation, and do the commandments of God, believing in God and fearing Him as Lord and loving Him as Father. Now this doing is produced   |72 by faith: for Isaiah says: If ye believe not, neither shall ye understand. [10. Isa. vii. 9 ]
        And faith is produced by the truth; for faith rests on things that truly are.
For in things that are, as they are, we believe; and believing in things that are, as they ever are, we keep firm our confidence in them.

Since then faith is the PERPETUATION of our salvation, we must needs bestow much pains on the maintenance thereof, in order that we may have a true comprehension of the things that are. Now faith occasions this for us; even as the Elders, the disciples of the Apostles, have handed down to us.

First of all it bids us bear in mind that we have received baptism for the remission of sins, in the name of God the Father, and in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was incarnate and died and rose again, and in the Holy Spirit of God.
      And that this baptism is the seal of eternal life, and is the new birth and is over all things that are made, and all things are put under Him |73 and all the things that are put under Him are made His own; for God is not ruler and Lord over the things of another, but over His own; and all things are God's; and therefore God is Almighty, and all things are of God. unto God, that we should no longer be the sons of mortal men, but of the eternal and perpetual God; and that what is everlasting and continuing is made God;
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Fri Dec 15, 2017 - 00:30:39
Ephesians 2:8 (KJV)
8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ever seen this,

'By grace are you saved-- through faith that is not of yourselves: grace and faith are the gift of salvation from God.' ?

That's true, isn't it? Then can't it be accepted for correct translation as well?

Umm...that is not what the text says. Let's look at it again...

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

In the actual Greek it reads:

τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, Θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·

Literally translated including the grammar, it reads thusly:

because in favor you were saved in the past, through faith, and not because of anything that you did, it is the gift of God,

So, Paul says, #1 that those who are saved, are saved because of favor, a direct reference to covenant because no one has favor with God unless they are in the New Covenant. #2, no one is saved unless they believe in Christ and place their trust in Him. #3, Paul says that we are not saved because of anything that we do to earn it...such as when you buy something at the store. You give the clerk money, and you receive what you paid for. Paul continues and says that salvation is a gift from God...and it is; it is a covenant gift that is given to those who enter into the New Covenant.

The answer to what appears to be a question on your part, is no...neither grace nor faith are gifts of God. This can be observed even when we apply the rules of English grammar to the text. The gift of God is salvation, grace is the love of God in action on our behalf that caused Him to make a way of salvation, and faith is your part in the text...it is not the only part, but it is the only part that this particular text addresses.

Blessings!

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Fri Dec 15, 2017 - 00:34:14
Ephesians 1 comes before Ephesians 2 to prove that Paul is writing to people who ARE SAVED already.

Sorry KS, but things don't work like that. Each letter addresses what they address, your argumentative point here is a tautology, and means nothing.

Every letter or book in the NT is written to saved believers, that is the first confirmed assumption of every book.


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Fri Dec 15, 2017 - 05:36:35
size=10pt]Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

In the actual Greek it reads:

τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, Θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·

Literally translated including the grammar, it reads thusly:

because in favor you were saved in the past, through faith, and not because of anything that you did, it is the gift of God,
[/size]
Yours, I think, is a very poor translation.  You choose favor instead of grace.  Either is an acceptable rendering of χάριτί; however, given the subject matter grace is probably the better choice.  Also you chose because rather than for.  Either is acceptable.  Your rendering of σεσῳσμένοι as were saved in the past rather than have been saved is very poor; and you are imparting your own bit of theological bias into.
Your "literal" translation of τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν is particularly bad.  It is "literally" this not of you.  And Θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον is literally God's gift.

Thus the literal translation would be,

For [or because] by grace you have been saved and this not of you, of God's gift.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Fri Dec 15, 2017 - 11:33:07
Swordmaster
Quote
Sorry KS, but things don't work like that. Each letter addresses what they address, your argumentative point here is a tautology, and means nothing.

Every letter or book in the NT is written to saved believers, that is the first confirmed assumption of every book.

Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2 is the SAME LETTER without chapters and verses.
If they are already saved in chapter 1 THEN Ephesians 2:8 is not a ONE PIECE PATTERN FOR SALVATION but a WARNING to KEEP SAFE.

Eph. 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the WORD of God:
Heb. 4:12 For the WORD of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Paul was a reader of the PROPHETS meaning Holy Scripture:

Is. 59:15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the Lord saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
Is. 59:16  And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
Is. 59:17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
Is. 59:18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.
Is. 59:19 So shall they fear the name of the Lord from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him.
Is. 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.
Is. 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord;
       My spirit [breath] that is upon thee,
       and my WORDS which I have put in thy MOUTH,
       shall not depart out of thy mouth,
       nor out of the mouth of thy seed,
       nor out of the mouth of thy seed’s seed, saith the Lord,
       from henceforth and for ever.

A CHURCH OF CHRIST WHERE CHRISTIANS ARE DISCIPLES ARE STUDENTS ATTEND SCHOOL AND NOT "WORSHIP SERVICES" OPERATED BY STAFF

Eph. 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the APOSTLES and PROPHET,
        Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Remember: Ephesians 1 comes before Ephesians 2 in the same letter.  Ephesians 1 proves that Paul is writing to people who are ALREADY saved using words have the same meaning as the command to be baptized.

Ephesians 2 begins to show FROM WHAT they HAD BEEN SAVED and must now be KEPT SAFE by the Grace of God--which TEACHES--and Faithfulness--which obeys.

GRACE is God personified in the visible-audible person of Jesus Christ

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath APPEARED to all men,
Titus 2:12 TEACHING us that,
      denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,
      we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope,
        and the glorious appearing
        of the great God
        AND
        our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us,
         that he might redeem us from ALL INIQUITY
         and PURIFY unto himself a peculiar people,
         zealous of good works.

THIS HAS THE SAME INSTRUMENTAL MEANS AS BY BAPTIZING THE OBEDIENT

IN ROMANS 6 PAUL IS WRITING TO ALREADY SAVED PEOPLE AND HE REMINDS THEM AND US HOW AND FROM WHAT THEY WERE SAVED.

Rom. 6:16 Know ye not,
        that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey,
        his servants ye are to whom ye obey;
        whether of sin unto death,
        or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom. 6:17 But God be thanked,
        that ye WERE the servants of sin,
        but ye HAVE obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom. 6:18 Being THEN MADE FREE FROM SIN
         YOU became the servants of righteousness.



Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Fri Dec 15, 2017 - 12:33:33
Yours, I think, is a very poor translation.  You choose favor instead of grace.  Either is an acceptable rendering of χάριτί; however, given the subject matter grace is probably the better choice.  Also you chose because rather than for.  Either is acceptable.  Your rendering of σεσῳσμένοι as were saved in the past rather than have been saved is very poor; and you are imparting your own bit of theological bias into.
Your "literal" translation of τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν is particularly bad.  It is "literally" this not of you.  And Θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον is literally God's gift.

Thus the literal translation would be,

For [or because] by grace you have been saved and this not of you, of God's gift.

Actually, none of them are poor choices. Not only are they correct definitions of the words as definitions go, but based upon both immediate context as well as the context of charis in the whole NT, it is more accurate than the ESV's rendering. While it is true that I employ my "theological bias" into my rendering, I do not allow my bias to pervert the original text.

What I gave is basically the same thing that you come to, only in different words. by the way...go through all of the possible definitions of charis and see which ones not only "fit" the context, but then the few that actually make coherent sense in the text. When you do, only favor or loving-kindness fit and actually mean something.

Far too many texts are rendered as "grace" to the point that it no longer means anything substantial, particularly when one of the other definitions fits better with the contexts in question. I have done a thorough examination of all 155 occurrences of charis in 148 verses, and in the vast majority of cases (132) the word grace was rendered when it was vacuous and empty of meaning. In most of those cases, the words acceptable, favor, kindness, or loving-kindness was far more meaningful and accurate.



Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Fri Dec 15, 2017 - 12:35:31
Swordmaster
Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2 is the SAME LETTER without chapters and verses...

Yes...I concede. I guess I was more tired last night than I realize. For some reason, in my mind, I was looking at it as I Ephesians and II Ephesians...obviously a great error.

My apologies!

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Fri Dec 15, 2017 - 15:33:01
While it is true that I employ my "theological bias" into my rendering, I do not allow my bias to pervert the original text.
I am sure you want to believe that, but based upon a lot of your posts, it simply is not true.  Your haranguing on works as the means for assurance of salvation is clear indication that you do indeed pervert the original text.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Sat Dec 16, 2017 - 22:56:44
I am sure you want to believe that, but based upon a lot of your posts, it simply is not true.  Your haranguing on works as the means for assurance of salvation is clear indication that you do indeed pervert the original text.

You see through a dark glass, 4wd. Salvation and eternal life are not the same thing, and I have demonstrated that fact many times here. No one can work for assurance of salvation, and salvation is a one time historical event in a person's life...you don't have salvation today, if you are walking with God then you have eternal life, not salvation.

A person as intelligent as you should study the two and see the differentiations in Scripture. Don't let the fact that some of the biblical writers using the word "salvation" for a metonym of eternal life throw you off track.

You can't work for salvation of any kind...as I stated earlier, salvation is being cleansed and forgiven of your sins against God. YOU can't forgive yourself for your sins against God, only He can. Therefore, you can't save yourself. However, eternal life is not static like getting saved from your sin 15 years ago is...eternal life is a conditional state of being. If you are not meeting the condition of eternal life, then you don't have it. It is as simple as that.

Blessings!

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Sun Dec 17, 2017 - 04:59:41
SwordMaster, you have a very skewed concept of salvation, what it means, and how it is obtained. Paul said,
Quote
1Co_1:18  For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Being saved is not a one time action.  Justification is a one time action by God.  So is being regenerated a one time action.  But being saved involves not only justification and regeneration, it also involves sanctification and that is not a one time action but rather a life-long process.

Sanctification is by grace through faith just as is justification and regeneration.  We are saved by grace through faith.  We are judged by our works.  In other words our destination after this life is determined by whether or not we have been saved and that in this life before death and before Christ returns.  On Christ's return, all the saved and the unsaved will stand before Him at the judgment seat [the Bema] and answer for what we have done, both the good and the bad.  But that judgment does not determine where we will spend eternity.  How exactly Christ will use that judgment is not told us.

So that you are correct in that salvation and eternal life are not the same; however those who obtain [inherit] eternal life [in heaven] are those who have been saved and that by grace through faith and not by works.

You said,
Quote
...eternal life is a conditional state of being.  If you are not meeting the condition of eternal life, then you don't have it. It is as simple as that.
Now that is indeed true.  The condition of eternal life is being saved.  You have a terribly wrong view of what Paul and James have to say about works, and therefore a wrong view of salvation and eternal life. 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Sun Dec 17, 2017 - 13:39:58
4wd said...

Quote
SwordMaster, you have a very skewed concept of salvation, what it means, and how it is obtained. Paul said,

Actually, I don't, because I don't give in to traditional "wisdom" of past interpretations made with incomplete insights or knowledge on the subject. When I make an interpretation, it contains the full details on that subject matter, not half-a**ed knowledge.

Quote
Quote

   
Quote
1Co_1:18  For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Being saved is not a one time action.  Justification is a one time action by God.  So is being regenerated a one time action.  But being saved involves not only justification and regeneration, it also involves sanctification and that is not a one time action but rather a life-long process. Sanctification is by grace through faith just as is justification and regeneration.
 

Fact: salvation means being delivered from your past sins -

II Peter 1:9
For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was saved from his past sins.

correct terminology use does not say that you are saved today, it says that you were saved on the day that you repented, baptized, and prayed the sinner's prayer for the very first time in your life and became born again from God above. Just as a boy can be saved from drowning at the age of 16, we don't say that he is saved today, we say that he is alive. Salvation is a one time deal, a singular historical event in a person's life. You can deny that all you want, but then you will be taking an unbiblical view on the topic.

Justification comes when the blood of Christ is applied to one's life, bringing the righteousness and holiness of Christ to his account. He is cleansed and forgiven, and therefore pronounced by God as justified. Justification is based upon the righteousness and holiness of Christ. Salvation is based upon these and justification. All of these are initially given to the person the moment they come to God on His terms...and from that point on he contines to remain in that state of being as long as he continues to walk with God according to His way, not man's.

Sanctification comes to one in getting saved...sanctification is simply practicing holiness, so you have that part partly right and partly wrong. Sanctification was initially given to the person when they first come to Christ, because that is holiness - but practicing holiness is your part through the Spirit after getting saved. Sanctification, regeneration, justification, salvation...they all have been made possible because of God's love for us, and they come to us through the conduit of faith when we meet the conditions that He has set for us to receive them.

All of these things are part of the atonement in Christ, and are meeted out to the person who comes to God on His terms.


Quote
We are saved by grace through faith. 
 

Negative on both accounts. We are saved because of grace, NOT by grace. Both verses that use the terminology of "saved by grace" are incorrectly translated according to the Greek...

Ephesians 2:5 ESV)
even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--

Ephesians 2:8 (ESV)
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

In neither case is the word "by" either in the Greek nor implied by the Greek...the tail end of verse 5 reads:

"χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι" which literally means "in acceptance is salvation" (you can substitute acceptance for grace if you want, but when you do that, you make the word meaningless). The first part of verse 8 reads thusly:

"τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι" and literally means "because in favor you were saved." There is no where in Scripture that I am aware of that states we are saved "by" grace...anywhere. If you know of one, please let me know so I can study it.

Quote
We are judged by our works.

Yes, we are, but you don't seem to understand the reason why. Perhaps this will help...

We are in the military. I am your Colonel and you are a SSgt. (Staff Sergeant, in case you didn't know). I give you an order involving junior Marines under your authority. You go out and botch the mission because you didn't follow the orders to the detail, and several of your men get killed and several more captured. You are judged for your incompetence in the field, demoted, and court-martialed. why? Was it because you didn't do exactly what you were told to do? Or was it because of the results of your actions? You may think its based upon your actions, but while that is part of it, it is not the main reason. The results of what took place is the key thing. Here is the point...

God judges our actions because our actions have consequences. If God tells you to get down on your face in the middle of a park full of people and worship Him, and you don't because you are afraid of what people around you will think of you (that you are nuts or some kind of freak, or one of those weird "Christian-deals"...then you will be judged because you failed to do what God told you to do. The end result of your actions if you had obeyed God in that instance, would have been that three people would have seen you and asked what you were doing and why, and they would have come to Christ because of your boldness to obey in such a volatile scenario.

It goes deeper than that. You are commended to practice righteousness and holiness through loving on people, because that is the condition God has set for you to remain abiding in the New Covenant. If you are not in the covenant, then you are not walking with God, you do not have eternal life, you are not a child of God. That is what the Scriptures teach. The results of your obedience is that you remain in covenant relationship with God. If you are not in covenant relationship with God, then you are on your way to the lake of fire, not heaven.

So, again, does God judge you and condemn to hell just because of your disobedience? Or does He do so because of the results of your disobedience? The correct answer, is because of the results...which both affect you and those around you who might have gotten saved through your actions, but which you - by your inaction and disobedience - is the reason that those people end up in eternal flames. Understand?

I did not use Scripture in the above because I already knew that it would be a long detailed explanation, but if you can't see which passages apply to particular statements, I will be glad to list them for you.

Quote
In other words our destination after this life is determined by whether or not we have been saved and that in this life before death and before Christ returns.  On Christ's return, all the saved and the unsaved will stand before Him at the judgment seat [the Bema] and answer for what we have done, both the good and the bad.  But that judgment does not determine where we will spend eternity.  How exactly Christ will use that judgment is not told us.

I see...you have fallen victim to the old "bema seat" nonsense. Look up the word...bema is the word for elevated seat, and there is NO DIFFERENTIATION between the so-called judgment seat of God and that of Christ on judgment day. For one who has clear disdain for calvinism, why do you cling to a calvinist interpretation of the "bema seat?" There is one judgement, not two...and you will not find two judgments in Scripture anywhere. The bema seat judgment is one and the same, and all of us, saved and unsaved, as well as those who were saved and went backward into the world again, will all stand before God on that day. You can read GotQuestions.Org and find the same nonsense calvinistic rantings.

In short, there is no Scriptural evidence that there are two judgments, one for casting sinners into the lake of fire and a separate one for handing out rewards to Christians who make it to heaven. If you have some that do not involve insinuations which the text does not make, I would be more than glad to see them if you would take the time to show them to me. I have been wrong before and have amended my view...perhaps this might also be one of those times...

Quote
So that you are correct in that salvation and eternal life are not the same; however those who obtain [inherit] eternal life [in heaven] are those who have been saved and that by grace through faith and not by works.

You didn't listen to what I said, if that is what you think. For the 100th time, we cannot work our way to heaven, no one can, it is an impossibility. Walking in obedience to God does NOT save anyone, it only keeps one in covenant relationship with God. That's it, period. And by the way, getting saved does not even guarantee that you will go to heaven...because getting saved is just the beginning, not the beginning and end. As long as we are in covenant relationship with God, we have what we need in order to enter into God's presence and engage Him in personal relationship, and that relationship is the ONLY thing that will take a person into the consummation of eternal life in heaven in the end. Not getting saved, that only takes care of the thing that keeps us separated from God.

Again, I challenge you to study the details, and not just take generalized statements as if they were solid bits of evidence.

Quote
You said,
Quote

   
Quote
...eternal life is a conditional state of being.  If you are not meeting the condition of eternal life, then you don't have it. It is as simple as that.

Now that is indeed true.  The condition of eternal life is being saved. 

No, the Scriptural condition for eternal life is faith and walking in obedience to God...

John 3:15-16
that whoever believes in Him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.


Romans 5:21
so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through practicing righteousness, leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

I John 5:11-12
And this is the testimony, that God gives us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

So, eternal life resides within Christ, and whoever has Christ has eternal life...but who "has Christ?" Those who walk in obedience to Him...

I John 3:23-24
And this is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as He has commanded us. Whoever keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He will abide in him, and by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Sorry, but Scripture teaches that we don't walk in obedience in order to receive rewards, that is calvinistic nonsense. Scripture teaches that if you do not walk in obedience to Christ/God, then you are not abiding in Christ/ the New Covenant, and you do not have eternal life. Walking in obedience to God has nothing to do with salvation, because those who are at least attempting to walk in obedience to Him have already been saved. Now they walk in obedience to Him in order to remain in covenant relationship with Him so that they can engage Him in personal relationship.

These kinds of nonsense ideologies (calvinism and the like regarding salvation and eternal life) come about through purely mechanical cross-salvation absurdities that are not taught in Scripture, but which are read into the texts for the sake of one's bias, not the facts. I, too, once saw no differentiation between salvation and eternal life...but then I grew up spiritually.

Quote
You have a terribly wrong view of what Paul and James have to say about works, and therefore a wrong view of salvation and eternal life.

Negative...I understand salvation and eternal life because I take the whole Word of God into account, not just Paul (who is hard for some people to understand) or James, who I line up with perfectly where he touches upon what I said. Without actions of obedience, your claimed faith is dead, just as a body without the spirit is dead. Paul says the same thing, but because he mostly couches it in terms related to Pharisaic teachings, it goes over many people's heads.

Besides that, I John is the coup-de-grau...John speaks covenantally in I John like no one else does in their writings, so much so that scholars call it the letter on the New Covenant. If you read and study what is written there, especially if you understand covenant language and references to covenant, then you will have a clear understanding of salvation and eternal life. THEN, and ONLY THEN, go back and read Paul and James again, harmonizing them with John, then you will have your eyes opened.

Blessings!


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Sun Dec 17, 2017 - 13:46:21
4wd said...

Actually, I don't, because I don't give in to traditional "wisdom" of past interpretations made with incomplete insights or knowledge on the subject. When I make an interpretation, it contains the full details on that subject matter, not half-a**ed knowledge.

Being saved is not a one time action.  Justification is a one time action by God.  So is being regenerated a one time action.  But being saved involves not only justification and regeneration, it also involves sanctification and that is not a one time action but rather a life-long process. Sanctification is by grace through faith just as is justification and regeneration. 

Fact: salvation means being delivered from your past sins -

II Peter 1:9
For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was saved from his past sins.

correct terminology use does not say that you are saved today, it says that you were saved on the day that you repented, baptized, and prayed the sinner's prayer for the very first time in your life and became born again from God above. Just as a boy can be saved from drowning at the age of 16, we don't say that he is saved today, we say that he is alive. Salvation is a one time deal, a singular historical event in a person's life. You can deny that all you want, but then you will be taking an unbiblical view on the topic.

Justification comes when the blood of Christ is applied to one's life, bringing the righteousness and holiness of Christ to his account. He is cleansed and forgiven, and therefore pronounced by God as justified. Justification is based upon the righteousness and holiness of Christ. Salvation is based upon these and justification. All of these are initially given to the person the moment they come to God on His terms...and from that point on he contines to remain in that state of being as long as he continues to walk with God according to His way, not man's.

Sanctification comes to one in getting saved...sanctification is simply practicing holiness, so you have that part partly right and partly wrong. Sanctification was initially given to the person when they first come to Christ, because that is holiness - but practicing holiness is your part through the Spirit after getting saved. Sanctification, regeneration, justification, salvation...they all have been made possible because of God's love for us, and they come to us through the conduit of faith when we meet the conditions that He has set for us to receive them.

All of these things are part of the atonement in Christ, and are meeted out to the person who comes to God on His terms.

 

Negative on both accounts. We are saved because of grace, NOT by grace. Both verses that use the terminology of "saved by grace" are incorrectly translated according to the Greek...

Ephesians 2:5 ESV)
even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--

Ephesians 2:8 (ESV)
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

In neither case is the word "by" either in the Greek nor implied by the Greek...the tail end of verse 5 reads:

"χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι" which literally means "in acceptance is salvation" (you can substitute acceptance for grace if you want, but when you do that, you make the word meaningless). The first part of verse 8 reads thusly:

"τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι" and literally means "because in favor you were saved." There is no where in Scripture that I am aware of that states we are saved "by" grace...anywhere. If you know of one, please let me know so I can study it.

Yes, we are, but you don't seem to understand the reason why. Perhaps this will help...

We are in the military. I am your Colonel and you are a SSgt. (Staff Sergeant, in case you didn't know). I give you an order involving junior Marines under your authority. You go out and botch the mission because you didn't follow the orders to the detail, and several of your men get killed and several more captured. You are judged for your incompetence in the field, demoted, and court-martialed. why? Was it because you didn't do exactly what you were told to do? Or was it because of the results of your actions? You may think its based upon your actions, but while that is part of it, it is not the main reason. The results of what took place is the key thing. Here is the point...

God judges our actions because our actions have consequences. If God tells you to get down on your face in the middle of a park full of people and worship Him, and you don't because you are afraid of what people around you will think of you (that you are nuts or some kind of freak, or one of those weird "Christian-deals"...then you will be judged because you failed to do what God told you to do. The end result of your actions if you had obeyed God in that instance, would have been that three people would have seen you and asked what you were doing and why, and they would have come to Christ because of your boldness to obey in such a volatile scenario.

It goes deeper than that. You are commended to practice righteousness and holiness through loving on people, because that is the condition God has set for you to remain abiding in the New Covenant. If you are not in the covenant, then you are not walking with God, you do not have eternal life, you are not a child of God. That is what the Scriptures teach. The results of your obedience is that you remain in covenant relationship with God. If you are not in covenant relationship with God, then you are on your way to the lake of fire, not heaven.

So, again, does God judge you and condemn to hell just because of your disobedience? Or does He do so because of the results of your disobedience? The correct answer, is because of the results...which both affect you and those around you who might have gotten saved through your actions, but which you - by your inaction and disobedience - is the reason that those people end up in eternal flames. Understand?

I did not use Scripture in the above because I already knew that it would be a long detailed explanation, but if you can't see which passages apply to particular statements, I will be glad to list them for you.

I see...you have fallen victim to the old "bema seat" nonsense. Look up the word...bema is the word for elevated seat, and there is NO DIFFERENTIATION between the so-called judgment seat of God and that of Christ on judgment day. For one who has clear disdain for calvinism, why do you cling to a calvinist interpretation of the "bema seat?" There is one judgement, not two...and you will not find two judgments in Scripture anywhere. The bema seat judgment is one and the same, and all of us, saved and unsaved, as well as those who were saved and went backward into the world again, will all stand before God on that day. You can read GotQuestions.Org and find the same nonsense calvinistic rantings.

In short, there is no Scriptural evidence that there are two judgments, one for casting sinners into the lake of fire and a separate one for handing out rewards to Christians who make it to heaven. If you have some that do not involve insinuations which the text does not make, I would be more than glad to see them if you would take the time to show them to me. I have been wrong before and have amended my view...perhaps this might also be one of those times...

You didn't listen to what I said, if that is what you think. For the 100th time, we cannot work our way to heaven, no one can, it is an impossibility. Walking in obedience to God does NOT save anyone, it only keeps one in covenant relationship with God. That's it, period. And by the way, getting saved does not even guarantee that you will go to heaven...because getting saved is just the beginning, not the beginning and end. As long as we are in covenant relationship with God, we have what we need in order to enter into God's presence and engage Him in personal relationship, and that relationship is the ONLY thing that will take a person into the consummation of eternal life in heaven in the end. Not getting saved, that only takes care of the thing that keeps us separated from God.

Again, I challenge you to study the details, and not just take generalized statements as if they were solid bits of evidence.

Now that is indeed true.  The condition of eternal life is being saved. 

No, the Scriptural condition for eternal life is faith and walking in obedience to God...

John 3:15-16
that whoever believes in Him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.


Romans 5:21
so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through practicing righteousness, leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

I John 5:11-12
And this is the testimony, that God gives us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

So, eternal life resides within Christ, and whoever has Christ has eternal life...but who "has Christ?" Those who walk in obedience to Him...

I John 3:23-24
And this is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as He has commanded us. Whoever keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He will abide in him, and by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Sorry, but Scripture teaches that we don't walk in obedience in order to receive rewards, that is calvinistic nonsense. Scripture teaches that if you do not walk in obedience to Christ/God, then you are not abiding in Christ/ the New Covenant, and you do not have eternal life. Walking in obedience to God has nothing to do with salvation, because those who are at least attempting to walk in obedience to Him have already been saved. Now they walk in obedience to Him in order to remain in covenant relationship with Him so that they can engage Him in personal relationship.

These kinds of nonsense ideologies (calvinism and the like regarding salvation and eternal life) come about through purely mechanical cross-salvation absurdities that are not taught in Scripture, but which are read into the texts for the sake of one's bias, not the facts. I, too, once saw no differentiation between salvation and eternal life...but then I grew up spiritually.

Negative...I understand salvation and eternal life because I take the whole Word of God into account, not just Paul (who is hard for some people to understand) or James, who I line up with perfectly where he touches upon what I said. Without actions of obedience, your claimed faith is dead, just as a body without the spirit is dead. Paul says the same thing, but because he mostly couches it in terms related to Pharisaic teachings, it goes over many people's heads.

Besides that, I John is the coup-de-grau...John speaks covenantally in I John like no one else does in their writings, so much so that scholars call it the letter on the New Covenant. If you read and study what is written there, especially if you understand covenant language and references to covenant, then you will have a clear understanding of salvation and eternal life. THEN, and ONLY THEN, go back and read Paul and James again, harmonizing them with John, then you will have your eyes opened.

Blessings!

Your are covenant blind.  James does not teach what you say, fortunately.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Sun Dec 17, 2017 - 16:40:54
Your are covenant blind.  James does not teach what you say, fortunately.


That's funny...I am not the one who can't see covenant references. That's like the black kettle calling the red tea pot black...you need to do something about that.

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Sun Dec 17, 2017 - 17:14:53

That's funny...I am not the one who can't see covenant references. That's like the black kettle calling the red tea pot black...you need to do something about that.
You see covenant references where there are none.  As a result you are blinded a lot of times about what the Scriptures are really saying.  You said,
Quote
II Peter 1:9
For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was saved from his past sins.

correct terminology use does not say that you are saved today, it says that you were saved on the day that you repented, baptized, and prayed the sinner's prayer for the very first time in your life and became born again from God above. Just as a boy can be saved from drowning at the age of 16, we don't say that he is saved today, we say that he is alive. Salvation is a one time deal, a singular historical event in a person's life. You can deny that all you want, but then you will be taking an unbiblical view on the topic.
But at the time that Peter speaks to those Christians, all their sins are past sins; there are no others. All sins are past sins. 

Yes salvation is a one time event in the sense that God saves.  But salvation is a state of being for the one in Christ.  If you don't understand that then you really have no idea about most of what Paul teaches and preaches.  When one believes, repents and is baptized for the forgiveness of sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit one then becomes an elect of God in Christ.  It is a state of being not a one time event that needs to be repeated again and again. The boy you spoke of as saved from drowning is saved. Yes he was saved once in the past.  But he is still saved.   He is no longer drowning as you continue to espouse with your works harangue. In your "covenant view of things", he is still floundering in the water and needs to be fished out over and over again, because he never quite gets out of the water. The "salvation" you rendered him only kept his head barely out of the water and he kept sinking back under and needing to be saved again. 

James is not saying that you need works to be saved.  He not saying you need works to stay saved.  He is saying if there are no works then there is no faith.  And if there is no faith, there is no salvation; however, it remains that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works.

You said,
Quote
Justification comes when the blood of Christ is applied to one's life, bringing the righteousness and holiness of Christ to his account. He is cleansed and forgiven, and therefore pronounced by God as justified. Justification is based upon the righteousness and holiness of Christ. Salvation is based upon these and justification. All of these are initially given to the person the moment they come to God on His terms...and from that point on he contines to remain in that state of being as long as he continues to walk with God according to His way, not man's.
That is close. Justification is imputed, not imparted, righteousness.  But just as it is through faith that one is saved and is in Christ, it is through faith that one remains in Christ and therefore continues to be saved.  Here again is the situation that if there are no works then, as James declares, there is no faith, and without faith one does not remain in Christ. 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Mon Dec 18, 2017 - 00:25:43
4wd said...

Quote
Quote from: SwordMaster on Yesterday at 16:40:54


   
Quote
That's funny...I am not the one who can't see covenant references. That's like the black kettle calling the red tea pot black...you need to do something about that.
You see covenant references where there are none.  As a result you are blinded a lot of times about what the Scriptures are really saying.  You said,

No, I have studied ANE covenants now for five years now, and I know a covenant reference when I see it. You are now arguing out of ignorance of the subject matter, something I didn't really think you would do.

Quote
Quote
Quote

    II Peter 1:9
    For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was saved from his past sins.

    correct terminology use does not say that you are saved today, it says that you were saved on the day that you repented, baptized, and prayed the sinner's prayer for the very first time in your life and became born again from God above. Just as a boy can be saved from drowning at the age of 16, we don't say that he is saved today, we say that he is alive. Salvation is a one time deal, a singular historical event in a person's life. You can deny that all you want, but then you will be taking an unbiblical view on the topic.

But at the time that Peter speaks to those Christians, all their sins are past sins; there are no others. All sins are past sins.

You aren't making very much sense here. If I sin right now then it isn't in the past...I guess unless you count that as soon as you do it, its in the past, which is really a lame argument on your part. Please explain exactly what you mean...

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Yes salvation is a one time event in the sense that God saves.  But salvation is a state of being for the one in Christ.  If you don't understand that then you really have no idea about most of what Paul teaches and preaches.
 

Again, when we look at the details of what salvation is, and what it is not Scripturally, then we observe that salvation is a one time historical event. You are lumping salvation and eternal life into the same bowl, and in doing so you fail to make a distinction where Scripture makes a distinction. It is not I who fails to understand what the Scriptures teach on the subject.

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When one believes, repents and is baptized for the forgiveness of sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit one then becomes an elect of God in Christ.


Agreed.

 
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It is a state of being not a one time event that needs to be repeated again and again. The boy you spoke of as saved from drowning is saved. Yes he was saved once in the past.  But he is still saved.   He is no longer drowning as you continue to espouse with your works harangue.

You messed up there, and it is probably due to your bias. The man saved from drowning is not still saved from drowning today...and as you erringly put it, we don't say that he is saved from drowning today simply because he is "no longer drowning," that really is a nonsense statement. He may have been saved from drowning in the past, and yet is killed tomorrow by a drive by gang shooting, incurring a wound that he cannot be saved from.

BTW, my "harangue" as you call it was a detailed explanation, so if that is what you call such an explanation, you demonstrate yourself to be of lesser quality of a person that I originally took you for. If you cannot make a coherent rebuttal to such an explanation, then perhaps you should just pass it by without giving your two cents worth of nonsense.

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In your "covenant view of things", he is still floundering in the water and needs to be fished out over and over again, because he never quite gets out of the water. The "salvation" you rendered him only kept his head barely out of the water and he kept sinking back under and needing to be saved again.

That is what you see it as, and your view is horribly warped.

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James is not saying that you need works to be saved.  He not saying you need works to stay saved.  He is saying if there are no works then there is no faith.  And if there is no faith, there is no salvation; however, it remains that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works.

You are still stuck in your salvation nonsense mode, completely ignoring the delineation between it and eternal life. Your loss. However, as I have stated numerous times, I can back up what I say with Scripture, according to the Greek and its grammar. Of course, that matters little when you repeatedly don't even try to understand.

You said,
Quote

   
Quote
Justification comes when the blood of Christ is applied to one's life, bringing the righteousness and holiness of Christ to his account. He is cleansed and forgiven, and therefore pronounced by God as justified. Justification is based upon the righteousness and holiness of Christ. Salvation is based upon these and justification. All of these are initially given to the person the moment they come to God on His terms...and from that point on he contines to remain in that state of being as long as he continues to walk with God according to His way, not man's.

Quote
That is close. Justification is imputed, not imparted, righteousness.  But just as it is through faith that one is saved and is in Christ, it is through faith that one remains in Christ and therefore continues to be saved.  Here again is the situation that if there are no works then, as James declares, there is no faith, and without faith one does not remain in Christ.
 

Woa, woa, woa there spunkmyer...no one is in Christ just because they believe, and that is what you just stated above. No wonder you can't see what I am talking about. No where in Scripture do we find it taught that we remain abiding in Christ "by faith." You are way out in left field there...which brings up the question that if you sincerely believe that, are you still walking with God? It would seem not...because Scripture tells us something different about how we remain abiding in Him.

Faith is indeed part of the equation...but as I have ALREADY shown you (which you chose to obviously ignore), it is NOT the only element of maintaining one's eternal life. I gave you some passages...not all, but some...and if you still maintain an attitude of clinging to what you want to believe, rather then what the Scriptures CLEARLY state, then I guess there's no more reason to continue in this conversation. If you are not going to look at the whole Word of God on the subject, but just cherry pick your theories, then we have no common ground to stand upon.


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Mon Dec 18, 2017 - 06:25:18
SwordMaster, it seems increasingly clear to me that you really do not understand what it means to be saved, nor do you understand what it is that one is saved from.  To be saved means, literally, if you were to die at this instant you would inherit eternal life in heaven. It is a condition, a state of being, for each and every individual.  There are two and only two states; they are saved and not saved.  There is no third alternative.  Each individual is in one state or the other. That is in part why your perceived example of the drowning man is inadequate.  The man was saved from drowning; in other words he was saved from dying.  But in the case of spiritual salvation, one is spiritually dead.  That person in being saved is, in so many passages in the NT, brought back to life.  Spiritually, in being saved, one who was spiritually dead has been spiritually made alive again.  There are only two conditions here spiritually dead or spiritually alive.  So long as one is spiritually alive, then upon physical death one will inherit eternal life in heaven.


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Mon Dec 18, 2017 - 17:46:13
SwordMaster, it seems increasingly clear to me that you really do not understand what it means to be saved, nor do you understand what it is that one is saved from.  To be saved means, literally, if you were to die at this instant you would inherit eternal life in heaven. It is a condition, a state of being, for each and every individual.  There are two and only two states; they are saved and not saved.  There is no third alternative.  Each individual is in one state or the other. That is in part why your perceived example of the drowning man is inadequate.  The man was saved from drowning; in other words he was saved from dying.  But in the case of spiritual salvation, one is spiritually dead.  That person in being saved is, in so many passages in the NT, brought back to life.  Spiritually, in being saved, one who was spiritually dead has been spiritually made alive again.  There are only two conditions here spiritually dead or spiritually alive.  So long as one is spiritually alive, then upon physical death one will inherit eternal life in heaven.


Again, you make no distinction between salvation (getting saved from sin) and eternal life (being in covenant relationship with God as Jesus defines it, which Paul and other writers re-define according to their needs in their writings). You misunderstand the times when the term salvation and its cognates are being used by the NT writers as a metonym for eternal life, and in doing so you throw off your own theology. For example...

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Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,

Either Paul is using the term "salvation" here as a metonym for eternal life, or he directly contradicts himself in many other places, according to your theology.

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Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

Again, Apollos here uses the term "salvation" as a metonym for eternal life...otherwise you only get saved by obeying God, which you obviously consider to be "works righteousness."

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I Peter 2:2
Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation;

Again, either "salvation" here is being used as a metonym for eternal life, or your theology is all jacked up. No one can "grow up into salvation," you either have it or you don't. However, we do grow in our walk with God in eternal life, which has everything to do with spiritual maturity.

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Hebrews 1:14
Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?

Once again...no one can "inherit salvation," because as you have already correctly stated, you are either saved or you are not...there is no inheriting being forgiven by God of your sins against Him. Therefore, the only logical deduction here is that, once again, the term "salvation" is being used metonymically for eternal life.

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I Peter 1:5
who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

I hate to say "again," but AGAIN either the term "salvation" is being used metonymically for eternal life, or your theology has a big hole shot right through the middle of it.

So, are you going to take the time to HONESTLY evaluate what I am trying to show you according to the Scriptures, or are you going to be like Red and bury your head inside your bias and refuse stubbornly to acknowledge what you are reading with your own eyes, and amend your theory to the facts of Scripture?

Balls in your court...  ::pondering::


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: fish153 on Mon Dec 18, 2017 - 18:24:19
SwordMaster with his wacky theology once again.  I have never seen one person agree with him by the way-----it's him against all.  I will
just offer one set of scriptures that clearly shows that salvation and eternal life are the same thing:

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." (John 3:14-17)

The fact he says "should not PERISH reveals He is speaking about Salvation at the same time as Eternal Life.  And in verse 17 he clearly states that the world 'through Him might be SAVED".

What SM will do (as he ALWAYS does) is say that the word "should" or "might" puts a big IF in the equation. He loves to question the faithfulness of God's promises in order to cast the Christian into doubt. He takes Scriptures filled with great joy and assurance, and seeks to tarnish them with his innaccurate theology. But he is clearly wrong, and misinformed.  He has been shown times without number that he has a faulty theology. I am not saying that I am perfect in my interpretation of Scripture---but SwordMaster is clearly OFF, and I am very glad you see that 4WD.  You may believe I'm "off" also---that's fine.  I am just very glad to see that you understand that SM's theology is clearly not scriptural.  He is willing to alter scripture to make his theology fit. We see this when he tries to take "by Grace" and make "by"not mean what it says. He is very dangerous in that he will sacrifice the true wording of Scripture for his own ends.   God bless you----again, I realize you do not fully agree with me either--but thanks for looking carefully at what SM teaches.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Mon Dec 18, 2017 - 20:19:13
Salvation is provided by the REMISSION of Sins so that we can read the text because Jesus decides who will be added to His School of the WORD-only.

Salvation is being called OUT OF DARKNESS or SKIA as the shadows in the Law.

The Church of Christ (the Rock) was a synagogue or a Word of God on rest days for rest, refreshing which comes through "school."

The Church is defined inclusively and exclusively in the prophets.

Is. 4:2 In that day shall the BRANCH of the Lord be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are ESCAPED of Israel.

Of the preserved or predestined Little Remnant maybe the 7000 who had not bowed to Baal which fits the pilgrims who were alive at Pentecost and went out into the World to free people from Carnal Judaism.

Is. 4:3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion,
         and he that remaineth in Jerusalem,
         shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
Is. 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion,
         and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof
         by the spirit OF judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
Is. 4:5 And the Lord will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion,
         and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day,
         and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.
Is. 4:6 And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat,
         and for a place of refuge, and for a COVERT from storm and from rain.

A Church of Christ does not attract the World (Kosmos, Ecumenical, the kingdom of the Devil) because the kingdom does not come with observation including RELIGIOUS OBSERVATIONS.


A Church of Christ is a SAFE HOUSE FROM the World and Religionism

(http://www.piney.com/Isaiah.4.Umbrella.gif)
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Tue Dec 19, 2017 - 04:50:07
Again, you make no distinction between salvation (getting saved from sin) and eternal life
Yes I did, but you are too wrapped up in your "covenant theology" to even bother to see it.

And just as an aside, we are not saved from our sin.  Rather we are saved from the wrath of God's punishment for our sin.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Tue Dec 19, 2017 - 05:29:36
Again, either "salvation" here is being used as a metonym for eternal life, or your theology is all jacked up. No one can "grow up into salvation," you either have it or you don't. However, we do grow in our walk with God in eternal life, which has everything to do with spiritual maturity.
First you need to look up the definition of metonym because you are not using it in quite the manner of its definition; close but not precise.  Apart from that, if anything, the reference to salvation in all of those passages you cited only indicates that while not the same, salvation and eternal life are so closely connected that they cannot be separated in thought or concept except in certain [isolated] cases.  We know that salvation consists of God's work of Justification, regeneration and sanctification.  While often the Scriptures speak about one or the other, we know that they cannot be separated; that is, one cannot be justified and not be regenerated and vice versa.  One whom God has justified, He also has regenerated and [initially] sanctified.  One whom God has regenerated, He also has justified, etc. etc.  So except for the case in which one has been saved by grace through faith and then later rejected that grace through unbelief, the one who has been saved will inherit eternal life; i.e., his spirit will not see death again; he will never again die spiritually.  Nowhere in Scripture that I know of does it ever speak of one who has received salvation who is not also said to receive the inheritance of eternal life.
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So, are you going to take the time to HONESTLY evaluate what I am trying to show you according to the Scriptures, or are you going to be like Red and bury your head inside your bias and refuse stubbornly to acknowledge what you are reading with your own eyes, and amend your theory to the facts of Scripture?

Balls in your court...  ::pondering::
Game, set and match  ::smile::
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Tue Dec 19, 2017 - 21:36:22
SwordMaster with his wacky theology once again.  I have never seen one person agree with him by the way-----it's him against all.
 

Then you haven't been paying very good attention to things.

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I will just offer one set of scriptures that clearly shows that salvation and eternal life are the same thing:

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." (John 3:14-17)

The fact he says "should not PERISH reveals He is speaking about Salvation at the same time as Eternal Life.  And in verse 17 he clearly states that the world 'through Him might be SAVED".

Because your comprehension is way off, Fish, you don't seem to understand even the simplest things. You want so bad to try and demonstrate your personal theology that you use a passage where both terms are utilized, and then try to claim that they mean the same thing just because they are in the same passage. Your intellect is truly dizzying...

Do you have to walk in obedience to God in order to receive salvation? No, you don't.
Do you have to walk in obedience to God in order to maintain eternal life? Yes, you do.

By their very natures they are not the same thing...but i don't expect a person of your limited caliber to understand that unless God opens your mind to do so, like He had to do with Lydia.

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What SM will do (as he ALWAYS does) is say that the word "should" or "might" puts a big IF in the equation. He loves to question the faithfulness of God's promises in order to cast the Christian into doubt.


Negative, Fish...I take the Word according to the original language, which states exactly what I have shown you in the past. But because of your committment to calvinistic nonsense theology, you reject what the Greek states. It's not my fault if you only choose to believe what you choose to believe, right or wrong.
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He takes Scriptures filled with great joy and assurance, and seeks to tarnish them with his innaccurate theology. But he is clearly wrong, and misinformed.

Again, negative...the fact is, in many of the passages that you refer to, they are so perverted in their translations (because you mostly use the KJV) that what they teach is false joy and a false assurance. I don't pull any punches, fish, not like what your pathetic ungodly doctrine does. In the end, I will not be the one standing before God having to answer for teaching people false doctrines that ended up sending them to hell. I doubt you will be so lucky.

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He has been shown times without number that he has a faulty theology.


Once again, negative, fish. Just you claiming as such does not make it true. In order to demonstrate me to be wrong in my theology, you would have to enter into a lengthy discourse and provide sound argumentation, which you have never done. My previous challenge still stands to you fish, if you don't want to accept that challenge, then I suggest you cease with your underhanded tactics in posting anything to what I say. Again, either put up, or shut up, as the saying goes.

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I am not saying that I am perfect in my interpretation of Scripture---

No, you are not, far, far from it, in fact.


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Tue Dec 19, 2017 - 21:44:28
4wd said...

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Quote from: SwordMaster on Yesterday at 17:46:13

   
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Again, you make no distinction between salvation (getting saved from sin) and eternal life

Yes I did, but you are too wrapped up in your "covenant theology" to even bother to see it.

You did? Where? Care to quote yourself where you did...specifically where you did, not all the "blah, blah, blah" surrounding it.

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And just as an aside, we are not saved from our sin.  Rather we are saved from the wrath of God's punishment for our sin.

Negative...you demonstrate yourself again not to know what you are talking about. You can get saved and still end up in hell...tell us exactly how that can happen if you are saved from hell.

In fact, you demonstrate that you don't even have a clear understanding of what salvation is. Let me help you with that...

Matthew 1:21
She will bear a son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."

Gabriel didn't say that "He would save His people from the wrath of God's punishment for their sin." He said, "He will save His people FROM THEIR SINS." Try again....

II Peter 1:9
For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was saved from his past sins.

Again...Peter says that we are forgiven from our past sins, he says nothing about wrath.

Luke 1:77
to give knowledge of salvation to His people in the forgiveness of their sins,

Nope...sorry 4wd, you miss it completely here. We are saved from sin, period. Stating what you have above shows that you evidently have little understanding of the atonement. If you understood the atonement, both in the old covenant and the new, then you would see clearly your mistake.


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Tue Dec 19, 2017 - 21:58:19
First you need to look up the definition of metonym because you are not using it in quite the manner of its definition; close but not precise.
 

 rofl  Sorry, guy, but I know the definition of what a metonym is, and it is being used in those passages exactly so.

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Apart from that, if anything, the reference to salvation in all of those passages you cited only indicates that while not the same, salvation and eternal life are so closely connected that they cannot be separated in thought or concept except in certain [isolated] cases.


Negative...now you are letting your bias dictate your brain. Grace and faith are closely related and interworking...but they are not the same thing. Faith and obedience are closely connected and interworking, but they are not the same. You are not arguing out of your bias and not thinking about what you are saying. You are digressing to the same level as Red and his flunkies.

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We know that salvation consists of God's work of Justification, regeneration and sanctification.  While often the Scriptures speak about one or the other, we know that they cannot be separated; that is, one cannot be justified and not be regenerated and vice versa.  One whom God has justified, He also has regenerated and [initially] sanctified.  One whom God has regenerated, He also has justified, etc. etc.
 

Yes, correct...but you are still arguing out of your ears and not with your brain. It matters not if they are related and one can't exist without the other, the fact is that none of what you have given here ARE THE SAME THING. Period! Open your eyes...think about what you are being shown rather than just automatically sticking your fists up in the air to defend your bias.

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So except for the case in which one has been saved by grace through faith and then later rejected that grace through unbelief, the one who has been saved will inherit eternal life; i.e., his spirit will not see death again; he will never again die spiritually.  Nowhere in Scripture that I know of does it ever speak of one who has received salvation who is not also said to receive the inheritance of eternal life.Game, set and match  ::smile::

Oh, my God...so now you are a calvinist? When did that happen? So now you advocate once saved always saved nonsense? Is this REALLY 4wd...or has someone hacked his screen name?

You are in deep kimchi, buddy. The NT is full of warnings to those who have gotten saved that they can end up in hell. The Scriptures give us examples of some who were at one time saved, who ended up falling from grace...and Paul himself told the Galatians that some of them had fallen from grace. What happened to you, 4wd?

As far as your last line, you now seem to follow the nonsense theory that once a person has eternal life, that they WILL make it to heaven, because eternal means just that...eternal. Is that the nonsense calvinistic trap you have fallen into? I have sad news for you...it matters not that you have eternal life if you are not walking in obedience to God, because eternal life is not what takes one to heaven. What does take one to heaven is walking in personal relationship with God. Eternal life is only the prerequisite to you being ABLE to have that relationship with Him.

How far the mighty have fallen...


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Texas Conservative on Tue Dec 19, 2017 - 22:24:27
 

 rofl  Sorry, guy, but I know the definition of what a metonym is, and it is being used in those passages exactly so.
 

Negative...now you are letting your bias dictate your brain. Grace and faith are closely related and interworking...but they are not the same thing. Faith and obedience are closely connected and interworking, but they are not the same. You are not arguing out of your bias and not thinking about what you are saying. You are digressing to the same level as Red and his flunkies.
 

Yes, correct...but you are still arguing out of your ears and not with your brain. It matters not if they are related and one can't exist without the other, the fact is that none of what you have given here ARE THE SAME THING. Period! Open your eyes...think about what you are being shown rather than just automatically sticking your fists up in the air to defend your bias.

Oh, my God...so now you are a calvinist? When did that happen? So now you advocate once saved always saved nonsense? Is this REALLY 4wd...or has someone hacked his screen name?

You are in deep kimchi, buddy. The NT is full of warnings to those who have gotten saved that they can end up in hell. The Scriptures give us examples of some who were at one time saved, who ended up falling from grace...and Paul himself told the Galatians that some of them had fallen from grace. What happened to you, 4wd?

As far as your last line, you now seem to follow the nonsense theory that once a person has eternal life, that they WILL make it to heaven, because eternal means just that...eternal. Is that the nonsense calvinistic trap you have fallen into? I have sad news for you...it matters not that you have eternal life if you are not walking in obedience to God, because eternal life is not what takes one to heaven. What does take one to heaven is walking in personal relationship with God. Eternal life is only the prerequisite to you being ABLE to have that relationship with Him.

How far the mighty have fallen...

For one who talks about Calvinistic crap, you sure don't understand the piece about the P in TULIP.

Preservation/Perseverance of the Saints says that those who are saved WILL continue to the end.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: AVZ on Wed Dec 20, 2017 - 00:41:01
As far as your last line, you now seem to follow the nonsense theory that once a person has eternal life, that they WILL make it to heaven, because eternal means just that...eternal. Is that the nonsense calvinistic trap you have fallen into? I have sad news for you...it matters not that you have eternal life if you are not walking in obedience to God, because eternal life is not what takes one to heaven. What does take one to heaven is walking in personal relationship with God. Eternal life is only the prerequisite to you being ABLE to have that relationship with Him.

How can a person have eternal life and not walk in obedience to God?
Are you suggesting that there are people in hell who have eternal life?
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Wed Dec 20, 2017 - 05:18:11
rofl  Sorry, guy, but I know the definition of what a metonym is, and it is being used in those passages exactly so.
We could argue that but it doesn't really matter.  What it is called doesn't change what is being said.
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...now you are letting your bias dictate your brain. Grace and faith are closely related and interworking...but they are not the same thing. Faith and obedience are closely connected and interworking, but they are not the same.
I didn't say grace and faith are the same thing.  I didn't save faith and obedience are the same.  I didn't say salvation and eternal life are the same thing. I said, "salvation and eternal life are so closely connected that they cannot be separated in thought or concept except in certain [isolated] cases", and that is the truth.  One cannot receive God's gift of eternal life heaven unless one has been saved, i.e., received salvation.  And conversely if one is saved, then one will receive eternal life in heaven.  Paul said, "the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"(Rom 6:23).
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It matters not if they are related and one can't exist without the other, the fact is that none of what you have given here ARE THE SAME THING. Period! Open your eyes...think about what you are being shown rather than just automatically sticking your fists up in the air to defend your bias.
SwordMaster, you are the one with the closed eyes.  I have never said salvation and eternal life are the same thing.  If you think I did, show me where I said it.
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Oh, my God...so now you are a calvinist? When did that happen? So now you advocate once saved always saved nonsense? Is this REALLY 4wd...or has someone hacked his screen name?
Another example that you can't read. I said, "So except for the case in which one has been saved by grace through faith and then later rejected that grace through unbelief, the one who has been saved will inherit eternal life; i.e., his spirit will not see death again; he will never again die spiritually.  Nowhere in Scripture that I know of does it ever speak of one who has received salvation who is not also said to receive the inheritance of eternal life."

As far as as my last line is concerned, present the Scripture that says that I am wrong. And please keep in mind what I have emphasized in red and underlined.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Wed Dec 20, 2017 - 05:23:24
How can a person have eternal life and not walk in obedience to God?
Are you suggesting that there are people in hell who have eternal life?
What SwordMaster continues to present is his weird notion of covenants which leads him to believe that eternal life is obtained through obedience, i.e., to works.  He simply does not understand that Paul and James are in complete agreement when it comes to faith and works.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Wed Dec 20, 2017 - 05:35:48
What SwordMaster continues to present is his weird notion of covenants which leads him to believe that eternal life is obtained through obedience, i.e., to works.  He simply does not understand that Paul and James are in complete agreement when it comes to faith and works.
This is a true statement.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Wed Dec 20, 2017 - 05:54:19
In fact, you demonstrate that you don't even have a clear understanding of what salvation is. Let me help you with that...Matthew 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."Gabriel didn't say that "He would save His people from the wrath of God's punishment for their sin." He said, "He will save His people FROM THEIR SINS." Try again....
Then what are you going to do with these words:
Quote from: Paul
Romans 5:9~Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
This statement by Paul is a Biblical declaration of a biblical TRUTH, one that you are in darkness concerning. Your Ancient Near Eastern Covenants has taken you captive living under a strong delusion.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: fish153 on Wed Dec 20, 2017 - 13:18:24
SwordMaster---

You have been on this board for a long time now. You have heard the same arguments over and over and over again. But you refuse to
accept plain Scripture teaching. I will repeat one verse that I have posted times without number for you. it is as clear as day:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but HAS PASSED from death to life" (John 5:24 ESV)

Here, once again, VERY CLEARLY, the Bible states that the person who believes HAS eternal life----and also HAS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE (THEY HAVE BEEN SAVED).

But YOUR THEOLOGY is more important to you than the clear teaching of Scripture itself.  But if someone refuses to see the truth, what are you going to do?
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Wed Dec 20, 2017 - 18:19:39
SwordMaster---

You have been on this board for a long time now. You have heard the same arguments over and over and over again. But you refuse to
accept plain Scripture teaching. I will repeat one verse that I have posted times without number for you. it is as clear as day:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but HAS PASSED from death to life" (John 5:24 ESV)

Here, once again, VERY CLEARLY, the Bible states that the person who believes HAS eternal life----and also HAS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE (THEY HAVE BEEN SAVED).

But YOUR THEOLOGY is more important to you than the clear teaching of Scripture itself.  But if someone refuses to see the truth, what are you going to do?
It matters not who was on the board longer. There are three distinct views being presented.  After 500 years, when will there be a consensus.  It seems to be, to me, and important issue to understand correctly.  Yet, neither of the three is how the early Church understood the issue at hand.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: fish153 on Wed Dec 20, 2017 - 18:54:54
Thaddeus----

I don't care who has been on the board longer either.  I just have to point out that John 5:24 is very clear--the only way NOT to comprehend
it is to be willingly ignorant.  It is very clear that when one believes they are given eternal life and salvation simultaneously. You can jump through all
hoops you want, but you're not going to change the obvious meaning of the text. And this is what SwordMaster has sought to do ever since he came to
the board.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Wed Dec 20, 2017 - 20:28:49
John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man,
        but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son,
         even as they HONOR the Father.
         He that honoureth not the Son
         honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you,
         He that heareth my WORD,
         and believeth on him that sent me,
         hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation;
         but is passed from death unto life.

Jesus spoke only what the Father breathed into Him and He said: "He that believes AND is baptized shall be saved." If you BELIEVE you believe what was prophesied and commanded--all that He commanded. If you deny baptism you do not honor the Father or the Son or the Word. If you deny baptism you do are not a BELIEVETH on him and have NOT passed into Life in a spiritual sense.

OF THOSE ABLE TO RECEIVE THE WORD OF CHRIST::

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:
          and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

PISTIS INCLUDES TO TRUST OR COMPLY.  By extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself
PISTIS IS THE OPPOSITE OF APISTOS which means I will Not comply.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth [pisteuo] AND is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not [Apistos] shall be damned.

Apist-eô I. disbelieve, distrust, was distrusted, i.e. no one could be sure of knowing,

II. = apeitheô, disobey, to be DISOBEDIENT, they refuse to comply, They are not to be trusted, and so of persons and their acts, not trusty, faithless, Act., mistrustful, incredulous, suspicious, Treacherously, cause to REVOLT from. also kleptô meaning: seize or occupy secretly, effect or bring about clandestinely, gamon, to be 'smuggled in' get rid of imperceptibly

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Wed Dec 20, 2017 - 22:46:28
Thaddeus----

I don't care who has been on the board longer either.  I just have to point out that John 5:24 is very clear--the only way NOT to comprehend
it is to be willingly ignorant.  It is very clear that when one believes they are given eternal life and salvation simultaneously. You can jump through all
hoops you want, but you're not going to change the obvious meaning of the text. And this is what SwordMaster has sought to do ever since he came to
the board.
First, salvation is not either implied nor directly stated in John 5:24.  Furthermore, it NEVER states that WHEN one believes they receive eternal life. You are reading your bias into it. It states quite clearly in several translations, that if one hears and believes one has eternal life.  That is in the present tense, not future.  It is not final or permanent, because the rest of scripture clearly describes eternal life as a journey and whether one is SAVED comes at the end.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Thu Dec 21, 2017 - 05:48:19
First, salvation is not either implied nor directly stated in John 5:24.  Furthermore, it NEVER states that WHEN one believes they receive eternal life. You are reading your bias into it. It states quite clearly in several translations, that if one hears and believes one has eternal life.  That is in the present tense, not future.  It is not final or permanent, because the rest of scripture clearly describes eternal life as a journey and whether one is SAVED comes at the end.
Oh, come on, Thaddaeus.  I know that you have some rather quirky views but surely you understand that the NT speaks about having been saved [past tense], being saved [present tense] and will be saved [future tense].  So the point you tried to make about whether one is SAVED coming at the end is not completely true.  Also your comment about verse 24 that "salvation is not either implied nor directly stated" is not true either.  First we must consider more than just verse 24 in seeing what Jesus was speaking about.

Joh 5:24  "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Joh 5:25  "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
Joh 5:26  "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
Joh 5:27  and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28  "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
Joh 5:29  and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


One contrast here is between the two kinds of death from which we are raised. Verse 25 speaks simply of “the dead,” and the second reference speaks of “all who are in the tombs.” The latter reference to “the tombs” suggests physical death; the former reference simply to “the dead” is consistent with the concept of spiritual death, the condition of every unsaved sinner (Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13). Also, the former reference implies that not all the (spiritually) dead will actually hear the Son’s voice, but those who do hear will live. The second category clearly is universal: “all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth.”

Another point of contrast is the description of the event of resurrection itself. For the former group, those who hear Christ’s voice simply “will live.” This is an echo of verse 24, “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.” These are appropriate ways to describe the spiritual resurrection of regeneration. For the latter category, though, the resurrection is described as coming forth from the tombs, which clearly pictures a bodily resurrection.

A final contrast is the different times when these two resurrections will occur. For the first one, Jesus says “an hour is coming and now is.” That he says both “is coming” and “now is” means that the transition was beginning to occur at that very time. It did not technically begin until Pentecost, but Jesus indicates that its time is already present because everything is poised for it to begin. Of the second resurrection, though, Jesus simply says, “an hour is coming” when it will happen. His description of it in verse 29 is basically eschatological in nature. It is quite clear, then, that here Jesus speaks of two separate resurrections of two entirely different kinds.

It seems rather apparent to me that in verses 24 and 25 when Jesus says that those who hear and believe will live, he is speaking about salvation, i.e., being saved.  The "is coming" and "now is" means that such action is not reserved to come "at the end".

I think most of us at one time or another have asked ourselves the question, “If I were to die at this very moment, would I be saved?”.  I think that question and the answer to it deals directly with what it means to "be saved".  In fact that is the very essence of what it means to be saved.  Asked a little differently, "If I were to die at this very moment, would I go to heaven?", describes succinctly what it means to be saved.  Salvation, i.e., to be saved, at any point in a person's life means that if he were to die at that instant he would be rewarded with eternal life in heaven as opposed to eternal damnation in hell.  And that is without even addressing how salvation has come about.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Thu Dec 21, 2017 - 08:20:09
Oh, come on, Thaddaeus.  I know that you have some rather quirky views but surely you understand that the NT speaks about having been saved [past tense], being saved [present tense] and will be saved [future tense].  So the point you tried to make about whether one is SAVED coming at the end is not completely true.  Also your comment about verse 24 that "salvation is not either implied nor directly stated" is not true either.  First we must consider more than just verse 24 in seeing what Jesus was speaking about.

Joh 5:24  "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Joh 5:25  "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
Joh 5:26  "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
Joh 5:27  and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28  "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
Joh 5:29  and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


One contrast here is between the two kinds of death from which we are raised. Verse 25 speaks simply of “the dead,” and the second reference speaks of “all who are in the tombs.” The latter reference to “the tombs” suggests physical death; the former reference simply to “the dead” is consistent with the concept of spiritual death, the condition of every unsaved sinner (Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13). Also, the former reference implies that not all the (spiritually) dead will actually hear the Son’s voice, but those who do hear will live. The second category clearly is universal: “all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth.”

Another point of contrast is the description of the event of resurrection itself. For the former group, those who hear Christ’s voice simply “will live.” This is an echo of verse 24, “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.” These are appropriate ways to describe the spiritual resurrection of regeneration. For the latter category, though, the resurrection is described as coming forth from the tombs, which clearly pictures a bodily resurrection.

A final contrast is the different times when these two resurrections will occur. For the first one, Jesus says “an hour is coming and now is.” That he says both “is coming” and “now is” means that the transition was beginning to occur at that very time. It did not technically begin until Pentecost, but Jesus indicates that its time is already present because everything is poised for it to begin. Of the second resurrection, though, Jesus simply says, “an hour is coming” when it will happen. His description of it in verse 29 is basically eschatological in nature. It is quite clear, then, that here Jesus speaks of two separate resurrections of two entirely different kinds.

It seems rather apparent to me that in verses 24 and 25 when Jesus says that those who hear and believe will live, he is speaking about salvation, i.e., being saved.  The "is coming" and "now is" means that such action is not reserved to come "at the end".

I think most of us at one time or another have asked ourselves the question, “If I were to die at this very moment, would I be saved?”.  I think that question and the answer to it deals directly with what it means to "be saved".  In fact that is the very essence of what it means to be saved.  Asked a little differently, "If I were to die at this very moment, would I go to heaven?", describes succinctly what it means to be saved.  Salvation, i.e., to be saved, at any point in a person's life means that if he were to die at that instant he would be rewarded with eternal life in heaven as opposed to eternal damnation in hell.  And that is without even addressing how salvation has come about.
Salvation has all to do with what Christ accomplished.  It requires nothing on the part of man, neither believing or hearing.  Salvation includes everyone, even the physical world itself.  Of course, you know this since I told you many times already.  You deny it because it does not fit your interpretation.  Thus it completely disorganizes your whole perspective.

Being saved does not mean one will be  going to heaven. It means that all men will have had the opportunity to believe and hear and their choice is either heaven or hell.  That choice would not be possible unless Christ redeemed the world. 
Now, if you died now, today, and If you were in Christ, then you shall be saved, meaning be granted eternal life. Granting eternal life is NEVER in the future, It is always expressed in the present tense. or maybe in the future dependent on the contingencies of one's daily life of living IN Christ. 

This is why all three  positions exist, having been saved from death and sin, by Christ.  being saved through living IN Christ, and being saved if one is faithful to the end. The first is guaranteed by God and will never change.  The second, thus the last is totally dependent on the choice and actions of man.  It is the whole reason man was created.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Thu Dec 21, 2017 - 08:48:04
Typical Thaddaeus soteriology.  Funny but sad. Perhaps not funny, just sad.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Thu Dec 21, 2017 - 16:09:43
I want to post in this thread, yet it makes my head hurt just to think where to begin after reading #278-280! I need some rest before undertaking this task.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Thu Dec 21, 2017 - 17:47:19
Typical Thaddaeus soteriology.  Funny but sad. Perhaps not funny, just sad.
yet you are incapable of refuting anything I have stated. You always need to resort to nonsensical statements. Your first statement is not even true which is why you cannot refute it.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: AVZ on Thu Dec 21, 2017 - 18:46:19
Being saved does not mean one will be  going to heaven. It means that all men will have had the opportunity to believe and hear and their choice is either heaven or hell. 

So what you are saying is that in hell you will find people who are saved?
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Thu Dec 21, 2017 - 23:35:56
So what you are saying is that in hell you will find people who are saved?

Since you really don't understand the concept, I'll say "Yes".  One could not be in hell unless they were saved from death, you know the condemnation given to Adam, and overcome by Christ.  This aught to give you something to chew on.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: AVZ on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 01:02:13
Since you really don't understand the concept, I'll say "Yes".  One could not be in hell unless they were saved from death, you know the condemnation given to Adam, and overcome by Christ.  This aught to give you something to chew on.

Well, the condemnation given to Adam because of his sin was physical death. Spiritual death was the consequence of his sin.
I also know that Christ did not come to conquer physical death, He came to conquer spiritual death. We still have to "suffer" physical death.
So if you are referring to the kind of death that was overcome by Christ, you are referring to spiritual death.

Now, in case you are going to argue that Christ overcame physical death, then how can I be saved from death if I still have to physically die first?
Its like saying: I am going to save you from drowning but you will have to drown first. That would be a rather peculiar concept.

So what you are saying is that in hell there are people who are saved from spiritual death?
But isn't the whole point of heaven and hell that those who are saved from spiritual death, go to heaven?
And those who are in hell are not saved from their spiritual death, because they are absent from God.

So there is one place where you are saved from spiritual death, and you are present with God (heaven).
And there is another place where you are not saved from spiritual death, and you are absent from God (hell).
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 04:52:58
yet you are incapable of refuting anything I have stated. You always need to resort to nonsensical statements. Your first statement is not even true which is why you cannot refute it.
The very fact that you are going to die, unless Jesus returns before that happens, refutes your theological nonsense.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 07:14:54
One could not be in hell unless they were saved from death...

What is this?  ::frown:: ::doh:: ::frustrated:: ??? ::pray::
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 11:11:34
 Avz,
Quote
Well, the condemnation given to Adam because of his sin was physical death. Spiritual death was the consequence of his sin.
I also know that Christ did not come to conquer physical death, He came to conquer spiritual death. We still have to "suffer" physical death.
So if you are referring to the kind of death that was overcome by Christ, you are referring to spiritual death.
Not according to scripture.  There is no place in scripture that ever states or implies that Christ died a spiritual death. However, from Genesis to Revelation  it is all about Christ overcoming the condemnation of Adam to death, dust to dust.  Your view completly denies the purpose of the Incarnnation, why Christ needed to assume our human nature and raise it to life. From  Gen 3:19, Rom 5:12, I Cor 15:22, I Cor 15:52-54, II Tim 1:10, Heb 2:9, 14 and many others. Your interpretation denies that there could even be an eternal existence.

Quote
Now, in case you are going to argue that Christ overcame physical death, then how can I be saved from death if I still have to physically die first?
Its like saying: I am going to save you from drowning but you will have to drown first. That would be a rather peculiar concept.
Christ did not change our human nature in this life, it is still mortal.  All men die once in order that we might destroy sin in our flesh. We will be raised incorruptible and immortal in the last day. I Cor 15:52-54. Scripture is quite clear on this.

Quote
So what you are saying is that in hell there are people who are saved from spiritual death?
no, physical death, the annihilation of man which would be the result of the condemnation to Adam, permanent dust to dust. Gen 3:19.
Quote
But isn't the whole point of heaven and hell that those who are saved from spiritual death, go to heaven?
yes, but if you don't even exist, are just a pile of dust, what good is either heaven or hell?

Quote
And those who are in hell are not saved from their spiritual death, because they are absent from God.
Correct. But now can you still show me how Christ defeated this spiritual death?

Quote
So there is one place where you are saved from spiritual death, and you are present with God (heaven).
yes
Quote
And there is another place where you are not saved from spiritual death, and you are absent from God (hell).
Yes, but if you have been condemned to physical, permanent state of being dust, just how does one get to either place?
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 11:12:50
The very fact that you are going to die, unless Jesus returns before that happens, refutes your theological nonsense.
Show where the evidence in scripture that would support your statement?
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 11:14:55
What is this?  ::frown:: ::doh:: ::frustrated:: ??? ::pray::

You should all do a study on the Incarnation.  All of you are denying one of the hallmarks of Christianity, the Incarnation.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: AVZ on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 11:17:51
There is no place in scripture that ever states or implies that Christ died a spiritual death.

And I never said He did. Read my post again.
I said he conquered spiritual death.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 11:35:14
And I never said He did. Read my post again.
I said he conquered spiritual death.
OK, show where He conquered spiritual death? Just how does He do that?
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 12:37:36
Quote
You should all do a study on the Incarnation.  All of you are denying one of the hallmarks of Christianity, the Incarnation.


No, but it was God's WORD or LOGOS or REGULATIVE PRINCIPLE or GOVERNING PRINCIPLE that became Visible and Audible. God is LIGHT but God is REFLECTED in the Face of Jesus and so becomes flesh.  The task should be to just READ the Word grasping that DOGMA does not honor the WORD which can be spoken or WRITTEN FOR OUR MEMORY.

2Pet. 1:15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

John wrote long after the others of events he knew about but which had been distorted.  The Greek Hermes, Mercury, Kairos was the LOGOS as as the mediator between man and the gods.

Acts 14:12 And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.

Peter said that the first creation was destroyed by water.

2Pet. 3:6 Whereby the WORLD that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pet. 3:7 But the HEAVENS AND THE EARTH, which are NOW,
        by the same WORD are kept in store,
        reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

John SEPARATES the NEW from the OLD.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, BUT grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

The BEGINNING defined a new creation as spiritual related to re

John 1:1 In the BEGINNING [Arche, Corner] was the WORD,
        and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him;
        and without him was not any thing MADE that was made.

    Made is g1096 ginomai gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become

    Matthew 1:22 Now all this was done, G1096
              that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying
    Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass,
               one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. G1096

John 1:4 IN him was life; and the life was the light of men.
 
John 1:14 And the WORD was MADE flesh, and dwelt among us,
        (and we beheld his glory, the glory AS OF the only BEGOTTEN of the Father,)
        full of grace and truth.

    1Pet. 1:3 Blessed be the God [Theos] and Father of our Lord [Kurios] Jesus Christ,
            which according to his abundant mercy hath BEGOTTEN us again unto a lively hope
            BY the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
    Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children,
            in that he hath raised up Jesus again;
            as it is also written in the second psalm,
            Thou art my Son, THIS DAY have I begotten thee.
    Rev. 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness,
            and the first BEGOTTEN OF THE DEAD
            and the prince of the kings of the earth.
            Unto him that loved us,
            and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

As the most always ANTITHESIS the Word was made Visible and Audible by Jesus Christ but the WORD is not a PEOPLE. A Word is what one SPEAKS and it OUTLAWS everything from the FIRST creation and permits only a SPIRITUAL KINGDOM which does not come with observation and is within you.  This should prove that this "Pilgrim and sojourner" kingdom of lost but found spirits is not that which is material.

(http://www.piney.com/Logos.Short.gif)

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 12:44:00
Show where the evidence in scripture that would support your statement?
The evidence in Scripture that says you are going to die?  Seriously?  You are funny.  But try Hebrews 9:27.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 13:04:31
Quote from: Thaddaeus on Yesterday at 23:35:56
Quote
One could not be in hell unless they were saved from death...
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 07:14:54
Quote
What is this? ::frown:: ::doh:: ::frustrated:: ??? ::pray::

You should all do a study on the Incarnation.  All of you are denying one of the hallmarks of Christianity, the Incarnation.

Tell us, where does sinful man go, if they were not saved from death, if you say that one could not be in hell unless they were saved from death?
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 13:35:08
The evidence in Scripture that says you are going to die?  Seriously?  You are funny.  But try Hebrews 9:27.
It sure does, Gen 3:19.   But how are you going to overcome this condemnation of death on your own?: As to Heb 9:27 I have already paraphrased it in my earlier post.
You have not shown any evidence that refutes what I stated yet.

You haven't given any evidence that Christ died spiritually?

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 13:41:03
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 07:14:54
You should all do a study on the Incarnation.  All of you are denying one of the hallmarks of Christianity, the Incarnation.


Tell us, where does sinful man go, if they were not saved from death, if you say that one could not be in hell unless they were saved from death?
If Christ does not redeem mankind from death, all men cease to exist as human beings. They return to dust from whence they came, Gen 3:19

Really? Have none of you ever studied the Incarnation, or even read carefully, I Cor 15.  It is all about physical death and the resurrection from that death.   Spiritual life is only alluded to in verse 17-18, and faith cannot grant life, it is futile unless Christ raises the dead.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: AVZ on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 13:57:57
If Christ does not redeem mankind from death, all men cease to exist as human beings. They return to dust from whence they came, Gen 3:19

Really? Have none of you ever studied the Incarnation, or even read carefully, I Cor 15.  It is all about physical death and the resurrection from that death.   Spiritual life is only alluded to in verse 17-18, and faith cannot grant life, it is futile unless Christ raises the dead.

Christ did not redeem mankind from physical death, because all man die.
Neither did He redeem all mankind from spiritual death, because some will go to hell.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 14:47:56
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 13:04:31
Thaddaeus:
Quote
You should all do a study on the Incarnation.  All of you are denying one of the hallmarks of Christianity, the Incarnation.
Michael:
Quote
Tell us, where does sinful man go, if they were not saved from death, if you say that one could not be in hell unless they were saved from death?

If Christ does not redeem mankind from death, all men cease to exist as human beings. They return to dust from whence they came, Gen 3:19

Really? Have none of you ever studied the Incarnation, or even read carefully, I Cor 15.  It is all about physical death and the resurrection from that death.   Spiritual life is only alluded to in verse 17-18, and faith cannot grant life, it is futile unless Christ raises the dead.


So, if Christ did not do what He did, are you saying that man is but all body? Or are you saying that even his soul return to dust? 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 15:35:28
Christ did not redeem mankind from physical death, because all man die.
Neither did He redeem all mankind from spiritual death, because some will go to hell.
So, you don't believe Christ did anything? You don't believe in the Resurrection.  You don't believe that Christ arose from a physical death with our human nature. Christ did not redeem anyone from spiritual death.  Explain to me just how, as you seem to imply, that He saved those that believe from hell? How is that accomplished?

What do you believe
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 15:41:41
Michael:
If Christ does not redeem mankind from death, all men cease to exist as human beings. They return to dust from whence they came, Gen 3:19

Really? Have none of you ever studied the Incarnation, or even read carefully, I Cor 15.  It is all about physical death and the resurrection from that death.   Spiritual life is only alluded to in verse 17-18, and faith cannot grant life, it is futile unless Christ raises the dead.



So, if Christ did not do what He did, are you saying that man is but all body? Or are you saying that even his soul return to dust?
Man was not created, either body or soul immortal. Without Christ, as a created person of body and soul, we would have died because of Adam and return to dust.  ONLY GOD is immortal and we can ONLY become, both body and soul immortal, by His resurrection, which will be accomplished in the eschaton, I Cor 15:52-54.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 15:41:49
For one who talks about Calvinistic crap, you sure don't understand the piece about the P in TULIP.

Preservation/Perseverance of the Saints says that those who are saved WILL continue to the end.

Yes, TC...that is what man says perseverance is all about...and it is crap because Scripture does NOT teach it.

So, yes, I do know what I am talking about.

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 15:44:17
How can a person have eternal life and not walk in obedience to God?
Are you suggesting that there are people in hell who have eternal life?

That is what I am saying...you cannot have eternal life if you are not walking in obedience to God.

No, there will be no one in hell who has eternal life...but there will be plenty of them who had been saved, and at one time did walk in obedience to God and did have eternal life...who no longer have it. Hence the reason they will be in hell.

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 15:51:02
4wd said...

Quote
I didn't say grace and faith are the same thing.  I didn't save faith and obedience are the same.  I didn't say salvation and eternal life are the same thing. I said, "salvation and eternal life are so closely connected that they cannot be separated in thought or concept except in certain [isolated] cases", and that is the truth.


OK, so what you claim above is true to a certain extent. However, following your line of thinking, vehicle and engine are two terms that are closely linked, yet they are not the same thing. If you agree that salvation and eternal life are not the same thing, which is what I stated beforehand, then why are you pressing your vacuous point?

Quote
One cannot receive God's gift of eternal life in heaven unless one has been saved, i.e., received salvation.  And conversely if one is saved, then one will receive eternal life in heaven.  Paul said, "the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"(Rom 6:23).

Ah, you make the classib blunder of failing to delineate between eternal life present and the consummation of eternal life in heaven. Do a study of the phrase "eternal life" in the Scriptures, and you will see (unless your bias is still blinding you) that it is spoken of normally as either a present reality, or as a future reality. When we take the two groups and look at them distinctively, then we learn that those who have eternal life presently may NOT end up at the consummation of future eternal life in heaven.

When you don't make the distinctions that the Scriptures make, you pervert the Word of God.

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 15:56:50
What SwordMaster continues to present is his weird notion of covenants which leads him to believe that eternal life is obtained through obedience, i.e., to works.  He simply does not understand that Paul and James are in complete agreement when it comes to faith and works.


Actually, 4wd, my concept of ANE covenants is spot on. The problem here is that you have a half-assed idea of covenant that is not correct or complete in the least. That being the case, you don't know how to read the Scriptures. If you don't understand that they are covenant documents, then you can't read it as a covenant document, and you will get it wrong.

Again, no one gets saved through obedience, and salvation is not the point here anyway, eternal life is. I gave you a number of Scriptures and you simply dismissed them outright because of your bias, NOT because you looked at them, digested them, and put any real thought into what they say.

Remember, if your personal theology does not line up with the totality of what the Scriptures teach, then your theology is false. So far, you have demonstrated your theology to be false, because you ignore the passages that clearly teach that if you are not walking in obedience to God, then you are not abiding in Christ. And if you are not abiding in Christ, then you don't have eternal life. It's basic mathematical logic...you evidently are gagging on a gnat while swollowing a campel...


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 16:03:05
Red said...

Quote
Quote from: SwordMaster on Tue Dec 19, 2017 - 21:44:28

   
Quote
In fact, you demonstrate that you don't even have a clear understanding of what salvation is. Let me help you with that...Matthew 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."Gabriel didn't say that "He would save His people from the wrath of God's punishment for their sin." He said, "He will save His people FROM THEIR SINS." Try again....

Then what are you going to do with these words:
Quote from: Paul

   
Quote
Romans 5:9~Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

This statement by Paul is a Biblical declaration of a biblical TRUTH, one that you are in darkness concerning. Your Ancient Near Eastern Covenants has taken you captive living under a strong delusion.

No problem, Red, if you understood Greek. There are two kinds of wrath in Scripture, physical wrath poured out upon a person such as what we see in Revelation, and wrath that is only the emotional state of mind against another person that has not been acted upon. Every person in the world alive right now that is not walking with God has His wrath sitting upon their heads (see John 3:36, for example)...this is the wrath Paul writes about above.

So, yoiu are correct to a certain point. Those alive today not in Christ have the wrath of God remaining on their heads...while those who have been justified no longer have that wrath hanging over them, that anger of God...because they have been redeemed and reconciled with God. Those who will actually suffer the poured out wrath of God (rather than the anger of God that is only in His mind at the present time) are NOT who Paul addresses here.

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 16:06:17
SwordMaster---

You have been on this board for a long time now. You have heard the same arguments over and over and over again. But you refuse to
accept plain Scripture teaching. I will repeat one verse that I have posted times without number for you. it is as clear as day:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but HAS PASSED from death to life" (John 5:24 ESV)

Here, once again, VERY CLEARLY, the Bible states that the person who believes HAS eternal life----and also HAS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE (THEY HAVE BEEN SAVED).

But YOUR THEOLOGY is more important to you than the clear teaching of Scripture itself.  But if someone refuses to see the truth, what are you going to do?

Fish, you repeatedly ignore the facts of Scripture because your bias makes you blind to it. As I stated to 4wd earlier, when we take all of the passages addressing eternal life, we find that they fall neatly into two categories most of the time: eternal life PRESENT (which is what you quote above), and eternal life FUTURE...which you ignore.

The Scriptural fact is, you can have eternal life right now, and never make it to heaven because somewhere between now and when you die, you cease to walk with God in obedience. Do you need me to give you those passages, or are you man enough to look them up for yourself to correct your ailing theology?

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 16:17:59
Thaddeus----

I don't care who has been on the board longer either.  I just have to point out that John 5:24 is very clear--the only way NOT to comprehend
it is to be willingly ignorant.  It is very clear that when one believes they are given eternal life and salvation simultaneously. You can jump through all
hoops you want, but you're not going to change the obvious meaning of the text. And this is what SwordMaster has sought to do ever since he came to
the board.

You do make at least one valiant point, Fish...and that is the part about being "willingly ignorant" of the Scriptures, which you demonstrate yourself to be practically every time you post...

Quote
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; but whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, because the wrath of God remains on him.

Quote
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

Quote
Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of My Father who is in heaven.  On that day many will say to Me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and cast out demons in Your name, and do many mighty works in Your name?'  And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Quote
Romans 2:6-7
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in doing good works seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life;

Quote
I John 5:11-12
And this is the testimony, that God gives us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the  Son of God does not have life.

          WITH

I John 3:23-24
And this is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as He has commanded us. Whoever keeps God’s commandments abides in Him, and He will abide in him, and by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.


Quote
John 8:51
Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My Word, he will never see death.

Quote
I John 2:10
Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no behavior that will take him into ruin.

WITH

I John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Quote
Romans 6:16, 19, 22
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?....I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification….But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.

Quote
I John 2:17
And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.

Quote
I John 3:14
We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death.

Just in case it escapes you in some of the above, loving on others is the fulfillment of the Law of Christ, so in loving on others one is walking in obedience to God. You ignore these, Fish, just as, apparently, 4wd is also doing. You cannot cherry pick your way through the Scriptures and believe only the passages that you want to believe...you either take all of it and harmonize the passages together, or you pervert the Word of God.

So far, you are only perverting it.


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: notreligus on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 16:36:46
This forum is called a "Grace Centered" forum.   I recall a time when it was a Grace Centered forum but now the emphasis is intellectualism and religious legalism.

I don't care who claims what.  Anyone who is relying on their works (such as water baptism) is as lost as lost can be.     I don't think there are too many posting here who know Who Jesus is or What He did or Why He it.  Religious legalism won't save anyone.   That's not a relationship with the Lord.  If Jesus is not interceding on your behalf then you've never acknowledge Him and you don't know Who He is.

Heb 7:17  For it is witnessed of him, "You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek."
Heb 7:18  For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness
Heb 7:19  (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
Heb 7:20  And it was not without an oath. For those who formerly became priests were made such without an oath,
Heb 7:21  but this one was made a priest with an oath by the one who said to him: "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, 'You are a priest forever.'"
Heb 7:22  This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.
Heb 7:23  The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office,
Heb 7:24  but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.
Heb 7:25  Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26  For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.
Heb 7:27  He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:28  For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 22:11:25
Man was not created, either body or soul immortal. Without Christ, as a created person of body and soul, we would have died because of Adam and return to dust.  ONLY GOD is immortal and we can ONLY become, both body and soul immortal, by His resurrection, which will be accomplished in the eschaton, I Cor 15:52-54.

The question is not if man was created immortal or not, but that, if you are saying that man's soul, like his body, return to dust, which your statement " If Christ does not redeem mankind from death, all men cease to exist as human beings. They return to dust from whence they came, Gen 3:19" implies, if Christ have not done what He did.

What, in what you teach and believe, is your answer to the question? I'll state the question yet again:

Are you saying that man's soul, like his body, return to dust, if Christ have not done what He did? Yes or No, and please explain what happens to the soul.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: AVZ on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 22:26:52
That is what I am saying...you cannot have eternal life if you are not walking in obedience to God.

No, there will be no one in hell who has eternal life...but there will be plenty of them who had been saved, and at one time did walk in obedience to God and did have eternal life...who no longer have it. Hence the reason they will be in hell.

You make no sense.

This is your statement

Quote
I have sad news for you...it matters not that you have eternal life if you are not walking in obedience to God, because eternal life is not what takes one to heaven.


First you say you can have eternal life and not walk in obedience with God but that it doesn't matter, and then you say you cannot have eternal life if you do not walk in obedience with God.

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 23:41:25
AVZ said...

Quote
Quote from: SwordMaster on Today at 15:44:17

   
Quote
That is what I am saying...you cannot have eternal life if you are not walking in obedience to God.

    No, there will be no one in hell who has eternal life...but there will be plenty of them who had been saved, and at one time did walk in obedience to God and did have eternal life...who no longer have it. Hence the reason they will be in hell.


You make no sense.

This is your statement

Quote

   
Quote
I have sad news for you...it matters not that you have eternal life if you are not walking in obedience to God, because eternal life is not what takes one to heaven.


First you say you can have eternal life and not walk in obedience with God but that it doesn't matter, and then you say you cannot have eternal life if you do not walk in obedience with God.


I will try to clarify:

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; but whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, because the wrath of God remains on him.

1.  If you believe in Christ, repent from your former lifestyle of sin, and receive water baptism into Christ, then you have eternal life PRESENT.
2.  That standing in Christ of having eternal life is dependent upon whether or not you consistently walk in obedience to God, the Law of Christ, loving on people in all the different ways that entails when the opportunities present themselves to you.
3.  If you cease to walk in obedience to God in the Law of Christ, you will NOT make it to the consummation of eternal life in the FUTURE in heaven.

Therefore, just as John the Baptist states, you can have eternal life right now...but that does not mean that you will make it to the consummation of eternal life in heaven in the future, according to the Scriptures.

Is that a clearer explanation for you?

Blessings!

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: AVZ on Sat Dec 23, 2017 - 01:06:18
AVZ said...


You make no sense.

This is your statement

Quote

   

First you say you can have eternal life and not walk in obedience with God but that it doesn't matter, and then you say you cannot have eternal life if you do not walk in obedience with God.


I will try to clarify:

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; but whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, because the wrath of God remains on him.

1.  If you believe in Christ, repent from your former lifestyle of sin, and receive water baptism into Christ, then you have eternal life PRESENT.
2.  That standing in Christ of having eternal life is dependent upon whether or not you consistently walk in obedience to God, the Law of Christ, loving on people in all the different ways that entails when the opportunities present themselves to you.
3.  If you cease to walk in obedience to God in the Law of Christ, you will NOT make it to the consummation of eternal life in the FUTURE in heaven.

Therefore, just as John the Baptist states, you can have eternal life right now...but that does not mean that you will make it to the consummation of eternal life in heaven in the future, according to the Scriptures.

Is that a clearer explanation for you?

Blessings!

Thats not my question.
My question was based on your statement "it matters not that you have eternal life if you are not walking in obedience to God"

How can one not walk in obedience to God and have eternal life at the same time?

Your statements indicates that one can have eternal life, but if one is not walking in obedience to God, it doesn't matter that one has eternal life.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Dec 23, 2017 - 05:13:51
That is what I am saying...you cannot have eternal life if you are not walking in obedience to God.

One might see nothing wrong in that. But then, eternal life is a gift, not a reward or wage. 

Since, in most of your posts, you speak of covenants and points to it, more than anything else, as key to understanding scriptures, perhaps you can consider the following:

The Jews ought to follow the covenant commandments of God written in the Law, is it not? And for what is this covenant for? What is it about? What does this covenant have to do with eternal life?

Now, God made a new covenant, a covenant not like the old one. What is this covenant for? What is this about? What does this covenant have to do with eternal life?


No, there will be no one in hell who has eternal life...but there will be plenty of them who had been saved, and at one time did walk in obedience to God and did have eternal life...who no longer have it. Hence the reason they will be in hell.

Of course there will be no one in hell who has eternal life. For in hell is death, not life. For where death is, life is not, and where life is, death is not.

Those plenty whom you refer to, as had been saved, and at one time did walk in obedience to God and did have eternal life, but somehow, lost it, who are these people? Do scriptures speak of such people?

And please explain what you mean by "had been saved". 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: grams on Sat Dec 23, 2017 - 05:50:03
           


               Eph. 2:
7

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
 

8

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
 

9

Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 
           


]]]]]   JESUS    went to the  cross for our sins...............  JESUS   suffered for  our sins............. ]]]]


            ''  JESUS  HAS  NO  SINS .............  ''   
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Sat Dec 23, 2017 - 09:21:57
The question is not if man was created immortal or not, but that, if you are saying that man's soul, like his body, return to dust, which your statement " If Christ does not redeem mankind from death, all men cease to exist as human beings. They return to dust from whence they came, Gen 3:19" implies, if Christ have not done what He did.

What, in what you teach and believe, is your answer to the question? I'll state the question yet again:

Are you saying that man's soul, like his body, return to dust, if Christ have not done what He did? Yes or No,
Yes.
Quote
and please explain what happens to the soul.[/b]
dust to dust. Man is a created being and always will be. Neither our bodies nor souls existed prior to our existence. Where in scripture does it state that our souls existed prior to creation? Or that when a human is conceived that a pre-existing soul was placed into that being? When Christ became man He took to Himself both body and soul of the human being.


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Dec 23, 2017 - 10:32:53
Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 22:11:25
Quote
The question is not if man was created immortal or not, but that, if you are saying that man's soul, like his body, return to dust, which your statement " If Christ does not redeem mankind from death, all men cease to exist as human beings. They return to dust from whence they came, Gen 3:19" implies, if Christ have not done what He did.

What, in what you teach and believe, is your answer to the question? I'll state the question yet again:

Are you saying that man's soul, like his body, return to dust, if Christ have not done what He did? Yes or No,

Yes.

Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 22:11:25
Quote
and please explain what happens to the soul.

dust to dust. Man is a created being and always will be. Neither our bodies nor souls existed prior to our existence. Where in scripture does it state that our souls existed prior to creation? Or that when a human is conceived that a pre-existing soul was placed into that being? When Christ became man He took to Himself both body and soul of the human being.

So, you believe that man's soul is something material rather than not, and have come from dust, that it would have returned to dust if Christ have not done what He did. Interesting, but I don't see that said anywhere in scriptures, that the soul is from dust and to dust it shall return.

Yes, NEITHER our body and soul existed prior to our creation. That is not an issue.

Now that it is clear to me what you believe of the soul, let me now go back to your previous statement, which goes and I quote:

Quote
Quote from: Thaddaeus on Yesterday at 23:35:56
One could not be in hell unless they were saved from death...

So, before Christ, you believe that people then died and both their bodies and soul returned to dust, and ceased to exist. And this includes those mentioned in Hebrews 11, like Abel, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and so on. Now if their bodies ceased to exist and their souls have returned to dust as well and ceased to be, why do we read in scriptures about them:

Matthew 17:2-4
2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

Hebrews 11: 39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

Also, we read God saying and referring to them as not dead but living:
 
Matthew 22:31-33
31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Further, with regards your belief as expressed in your statement quoted above, that would also mean that what Christ have done, that those who died prior to His redemptive work, who have returned to dust (body and soul) and ceased to exist, have resulted to their being brought back to existence, only to be put in hell. Not only that scriptures does not say that, but also that is just ridiculous and senseless. ~ annihilated to non-existence and then brought back again into existence unto hell. 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Sat Dec 23, 2017 - 11:03:49
Are you saying that man's soul, like his body, return to dust, if Christ have not done what He did? Yes or No, and please explain what happens to the soul.
Yes.
Wrong ! ! That is, if you understand the soul and the spirit to be the same, which is almost always the case when speaking about the human being.

Ecc 12:7  then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Quote
When Christ became man He took to Himself both body and soul of the human being.
That is debatable.  Given, particularly in the NT, the spirit and the soul are usually considered to be one and the same and  since God forms the spirit of each man in him (Zech 12:1), then we must ask what spirit did God form in Jesus when He was born?  I think the answer to that is God did not form the spirit in Christ when He was born.  Rather before Jesus took on the body of a human being He was, like God, a Spirit in heaven (John 4:24).  It was the Spirit of the preincarnate Jesus, that came to earth and took on the form of a human being.  It was that Spirit that Jesus spoke of when he cried out on the cross, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!", just before He died (Luke 23:46).
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Sat Dec 23, 2017 - 13:10:10
Yes.

Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 22:11:25
dust to dust. Man is a created being and always will be. Neither our bodies nor souls existed prior to our existence. Where in scripture does it state that our souls existed prior to creation? Or that when a human is conceived that a pre-existing soul was placed into that being? When Christ became man He took to Himself both body and soul of the human being.


So, you believe that man's soul is something material rather than not, and have come from dust, that it would have returned to dust if Christ have not done what He did. Interesting, but I don't see that said anywhere in scriptures, that the soul is from dust and to dust it shall return.
It states it in the creation of man.  It is the meaning of the Incarnation. Christ took on both, body and soul, to redeem mankind. Man is not a human being without both body and soul.

Quote
Yes, both our body and soul existed prior to our creation. That is not an issue.
So, God did not create ex nihilo. God did not create man from the earth. You believe that God has a reservoir of humans He picks from?

Quote
Now that it is clear to me what you believe of the soul, let me now go back to your previous statement, which goes and I quote:

So, before Christ, you believe that people then died and both their bodies and soul returned to dust, and ceased to exist. And this includes those mentioned in Hebrews 11, like Abel, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and so on. Now if their bodies ceased to exist and their souls have returned to dust as well and ceased to be, why do we read in scriptures about them:

Matthew 17:2-4
2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

Hebrews 11: 39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

Also, we read God saying and referring to them as not dead but living:
 
Matthew 22:31-33
31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Further, with regards your belief as expressed in your statement quoted above, that would also mean that what Christ have done, that those who died prior to His redemptive work, who have returned to dust (body and soul) and ceased to exist, have resulted to their being brought back to existence, only to be put in hell. Not only that scriptures does not say that, but also that is just ridiculous and senseless. ~ annihilated to non-existence and then brought back again into existence unto hell.
you seem to think that God is ignorant, is not all knowing.  If God promised a Savior to Adam in Gen 3:16, because of the condemnation He will give in
Gen 3:19 that God cannot treat man AS IF THE FINAL END HAS ALREADY BEEN ACCOMPLISHED?  This is why the soul is treated as immortal in the OT because God knew it would be. For the same reason He knew  that Christ would be interjected into history at His appointed time.
The Jews, Isrealites were told to look to the promised Messiah. He came. The story is not over as yet. We are told to look for the last day when all will be consummated, His second coming.

Might also add that throughout the OT there is no heaven or hell but only Hades or Gehenna, and Sheol.  Every soul went to the same place.  It was  not until Christ entered Hades and took captive those held there and brought them to paradise or heaven.  In the NT we have the distinction of both heaven and hell. Which is also temporary since believers will live in the New Heaven and New Earth  The same earth He actually redeemed at His resurrection.  Adam lived in Paradise. It was his vocation to bring everything to God and thus attain immortality for all. He failed so that Christ was needed to accomplish it for us.

This is what is meant and understood in Scripture as salvation. It is why Mary becomes the correct answer to Eve, and Christ becomes the Second Adam.  He reverses the fall and in this life man must choose to work with God or deny Him.  The faithful will attain eternal life or hell.  It is all premised on man's choice and actions. Christ did not save anyone from hell. He actually provided for it as a consequence of man's choice.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat Dec 23, 2017 - 14:36:16
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 10:32:53
Quote
So, you believe that man's soul is something material rather than not, and have come from dust, that it would have returned to dust if Christ have not done what He did. Interesting, but I don't see that said anywhere in scriptures, that the soul is from dust and to dust it shall return.
It states it in the creation of man.  It is the meaning of the Incarnation. Christ took on both, body and soul, to redeem mankind. Man is not a human being without both body and soul.

Please show us where it is stated in the creation of man and explain.

You said "It is the meaning of the Incarnation." What is the meaning?

I agree, "Man is not a human being without both body and soul.". And without a spirit, the body is dead. 


Quote
Yes, both NEITHER our body and soul existed prior to our creation. That is not an issue.

So, God did not create ex nihilo. God did not create man from the earth. You believe that God has a reservoir of humans He picks from?

Sorry about that.

Quote
Now that it is clear to me what you believe of the soul, let me now go back to your previous statement, which goes and I quote:

So, before Christ, you believe that people then died and both their bodies and soul returned to dust, and ceased to exist. And this includes those mentioned in Hebrews 11, like Abel, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and so on. Now if their bodies ceased to exist and their souls have returned to dust as well and ceased to be, why do we read in scriptures about them:

Matthew 17:2-4
2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

Hebrews 11: 39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

Also, we read God saying and referring to them as not dead but living:
 
Matthew 22:31-33
31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Further, with regards your belief as expressed in your statement quoted above, that would also mean that what Christ have done, that those who died prior to His redemptive work, who have returned to dust (body and soul) and ceased to exist, have resulted to their being brought back to existence, only to be put in hell. Not only that scriptures does not say that, but also that is just ridiculous and senseless. ~ annihilated to non-existence and then brought back again into existence unto hell.
you seem to think that God is ignorant, is not all knowing.  If God promised a Savior to Adam in Gen 3:16, because of the condemnation He will give in
Gen 3:19 that God cannot treat man AS IF THE FINAL END HAS ALREADY BEEN ACCOMPLISHED?  This is why the soul is treated as immortal in the OT because God knew it would be. For the same reason He knew  that Christ would be interjected into history at His appointed time.
The Jews, Isrealites were told to look to the promised Messiah. He came. The story is not over as yet. We are told to look for the last day when all will be consummated, His second coming.

Might also add that throughout the OT there is no heaven or hell but only Hades or Gehenna, and Sheol.  Every soul went to the same place.  It was  not until Christ entered Hades and took captive those held there and brought them to paradise or heaven.  In the NT we have the distinction of both heaven and hell. Which is also temporary since believers will live in the New Heaven and New Earth  The same earth He actually redeemed at His resurrection.  Adam lived in Paradise. It was his vocation to bring everything to God and thus attain immortality for all. He failed so that Christ was needed to accomplish it for us.

This is what is meant and understood in Scripture as salvation. It is why Mary becomes the correct answer to Eve, and Christ becomes the Second Adam.  He reverses the fall and in this life man must choose to work with God or deny Him.  The faithful will attain eternal life or hell.  It is all premised on man's choice and actions. Christ did not save anyone from hell. He actually provided for it as a consequence of man's choice.


No issue about God's omniscience at all Sir. And what is written in the OT, even in the NT was written under the inspiration and guidance of the omniscient God. But we must realize that scriptures was written not for omniscient beings but for the mortal man. As such it was written in human language. Although while for God, things which do not exist are as though they did, that is not how it is with man. You said the soul is treated as immortal in the OT because God knew it would be. In all of scriptures God treats man for what he is at the time, not what he will be at some future time. In God's omniscience, things are as though they already are. And our reality that we experience during our time is the unfolding of what to God is known
even from the beginning by His omniscience.   

You said that in the OT times, every soul went to the same place. Granting, are these souls not dead and returned to dust as you said they do together with the body?

You said that Christ becomes the Second Adam. Of course scriptures does not say that. To be more precise, what scriptures say on this is that Christ is the last Adam.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

You said Jesus Christ reverses the fall. But again, scriptures does not say that. Adam sinned in the beginning, which we refer as the fall. And nothing can change that. But we know the effect of the fall which affected not only Adam and his kind, but even the whole earth and the things that are in it. So we have Paul saying that  through one man, referring to Adam, sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men. So concerning Adam, Paul said that by Adam's offense, many died. But concerning Jesus Christ, the last Adam, Paul said the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.  And the gift is not like that which came through Adam, the judgment that which came from Adam's offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift resulted in justification.

You said Christ did not save anyone from hell and that He actually provided for it as a consequence of man's choice. Again, this is not what we learn from scriptures.

First, if you are referring to hell as the lake of fire mentioned in the book of Revelations, no one was yet in there. So Christ did not save anyone from hell in that sense. Second, as for Christ providing hell as a consequence of man's choice,  we find that nowhere in scriptures. Besides the lake of fire, that is, Hell, is not only there for the unsaved man, but was there even before man existed, in as much as it is the final destination of the devils.

Apparently, there are plenty of contradictions in your belief. In your belief, before Christ did what He did, the dead are annihilated and ceased to exist. Then you believe that the souls of these very annihilated and nonexistent people went to the same place. How can non-existent people be in a place, even in the same place? Then you speak of Christ at one time entering Hades and took captive those held there and brought them to paradise or heaven. Then you have these nonexistent people to be brought to existence again, either to be thrown into Hell or to be in Heaven, not if you say that all of them will come to have eternal life in heaven, so that none of them will be going to hell. Then you have the soul as the same with the body to be of dust and will return to dust at death and ceased to exist as well. It's not different from saying the at death, the soul dies as well. But then we have scriptures speaking of the body as can be killed by men but not the soul. That's a lot of contradictions, false ideas, and unscriptural matter there.       
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Sat Dec 23, 2017 - 17:11:57
Michael2012,
Quote
Please show us where it is stated in the creation of man and explain.

You said "It is the meaning of the Incarnation." What is the meaning?

I agree, "Man is not a human being without both body and soul.". And without a spirit, the body is dead. 

The creation story states that God made man from the earth. It does not separate any of this creation of man, except to give the creature life.
The meaning of the Incarnation is  that Christ took on all of man, his entire human nature, both body and soul.  Thus His redemption would be of the whole man, mot just a part of it.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: AVZ on Sat Dec 23, 2017 - 20:10:19
Michael2012,
The creation story states that God made man from the earth. It does not separate any of this creation of man, except to give the creature life.
The meaning of the Incarnation is  that Christ took on all of man, his entire human nature, both body and soul.  Thus His redemption would be of the whole man, mot just a part of it.

Following your reasoning, your present body and your present soul are released. You consider the two inseparable.
Then why do we get new bodies? If the old body is redeemed, then a new body is not required.

Moreover, scripture does say that the soul is created separate from the body.
The body is made from the dust of the earth, the soul is created from God's breath.

So even today humans are individual creations. The body is a material container in which God implants the soul.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Sat Dec 23, 2017 - 21:44:55
Following your reasoning, your present body and your present soul are released. You consider the two inseparable.
Then why do we get new bodies? If the old body is redeemed, then a new body is not required.
we don't get NEW bodies, but transformed bodies. Christ did not come to make new things, but to make all things new.

Quote
Moreover, scripture does say that the soul is created separate from the body.
The body is made from the dust of the earth, the soul is created from God's breath.
the breath of God was life, not the soul.

Quote
So even today humans are individual creations. The body is a material container in which God implants the soul.
And both make up the human being. It is a marvelous creation, who can describe it.

How come you cannot answer the earlier questions?
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Sun Dec 24, 2017 - 06:18:52
we don't get NEW bodies, but transformed bodies.
Yes we have a NEW HOUSE, not the old one renovated!
Quote from: Paul
2nd Corinthians 5:1-6~"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.  Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:"
This needs another thread and maybe I'll start one concerning this blessed truth that AT DEATH of our bodies at that very second we are clothed upon with our house from heaven. Saints have eternal life abiding IN THEM NOW in the new man...the outward man is perishing daily and soon the worms shall feed upon all of us, THAT BODY will be gone forever never to be renovated, but to be absent from this body IS to be present with the Lord WITH OUR HOUSE FROM HEAVEN! When Enoch was translated he THEN received that house from heaven. When Elijah was taken up in a whirlwind, he AT THAT MOMENT received his house from heaven. When Moses and Elijah appeared on the holy mount with Christ~they DID SO in their house from heaven!

Needs another thread.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Sun Dec 24, 2017 - 06:55:50
the breath of God was life, not the soul.
The breath of life that God breathed into Man is more properly the spirit of man as distinguished from soul.  Soul strictly speaking simply designates a living being.  It is, again strictly speaking, the spirit formed in man by God (Zech 12:1) that distinguishes man from the other animals, the other living creatures, i.e., souls.

Gen 1:20  Then God said, "Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures [Hebrew -- nephesh], and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens."

Gen 1:24  Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures [Hebrew -- nephesh] after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind"; and it was so.

Gen 2:7  Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath [Hebrew --  neshama] of life; and man became a living being [Hebrew --  nephesh] .


Nephesh --  living being, living creature, soul.    a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature....

Neshama --  wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect,  inspiration, soul, spirit.

In speaking of man and mankind, soul and spirit are typically used interchangeably in both the OT and the NT.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Sun Dec 24, 2017 - 12:56:13
Yes we have a NEW HOUSE, not the old one renovated! This needs another thread and maybe I'll start one concerning this blessed truth that AT DEATH of our bodies at that very second we are clothed upon with our house from heaven. Saints have eternal life abiding IN THEM NOW in the new man...the outward man is perishing daily and soon the worms shall feed upon all of us, THAT BODY will be gone forever never to be renovated, but to be absent from this body IS to be present with the Lord WITH OUR HOUSE FROM HEAVEN! When Enoch was translated he THEN received that house from heaven. When Elijah was taken up in a whirlwind, he AT THAT MOMENT received his house from heaven. When Moses and Elijah appeared on the holy mount with Christ~they DID SO in their house from heaven!

Needs another thread.
Lots of opinion but nothing that can be backed with consistent scriptures.  Our bodies are not gone.  Did Christ have a different body when He arose from the dead?  What do you think will be raised in the last day?
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Sun Dec 24, 2017 - 13:33:27
Michael2012,
Quote
No issue about God's omniscience at all Sir. And what is written in the OT, even in the NT was written under the inspiration and guidance of the omniscient God. But we must realize that scriptures was written not for omniscient beings but for the mortal man. As such it was written in human language. Although while for God, things which do not exist are as though they did, that is not how it is with man. You said the soul is treated as immortal in the OT because God knew it would be. In all of scriptures God treats man for what he is at the time, not what he will be at some future time. In God's omniscience, things are as though they already are. And our reality that we experience during our time is the unfolding of what to God is known even from the beginning by His omniscience. 
Based on what you have stated above I can only conclude that you believe in "soul sleep". Or you just plead ignorance as to the creation and existence of our souls.

So the Bible is incorrect when it states that the soul goes  into Hades?  That in the story of the witch of Endore in the story of Samuel and Saul it states that Samuel would join Saul.  Several Psalms clearly state the existance of souls in Hades.  In the NT we know  that the souls of believers go to heaven, others to hell.
 

Quote
You said that in the OT times, every soul went to the same place. Granting, are these souls not dead and returned to dust as you said they do together with the body?
quite clearly you are following the theological argument here. Upon the condemnation of death to Adam all things were condemned to permanent death, dust to dust.  But just three verses eariler God promised Adam there would be a correction of this condemnation. Thus from that point on man's soul is treated as immortal, though not immortal.

Quote
You said that Christ becomes the Second Adam. Of course scriptures does not say that. To be more precise, what scriptures say on this is that Christ is the last Adam.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Sematics, unless you believe that there are many other Adams in between.

Quote
You said Jesus Christ reverses the fall. But again, scriptures does not say that. Adam sinned in the beginning, which we refer as the fall. And nothing can change that. But we know the effect of the fall which affected not only Adam and his kind, but even the whole earth and the things that are in it. So we have Paul saying that  through one man, referring to Adam, sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men. So concerning Adam, Paul said that by Adam's offense, many died. But concerning Jesus Christ, the last Adam, Paul said the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.  And the gift is not like that which came through Adam, the judgment that which came from Adam's offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift resulted in justification.


You state that I am incorrect in that Christ reversed the fall. Then you go on to precisely explain exactly that Christ did reverse the fall. You are describing the change from death to life of everyone. You have the fall, death or condemnation in Rom 5:12 then life given to all men in Rom 5:18. How clear can it be?

Quote
You said Christ did not save anyone from hell and that He actually provided for it as a consequence of man's choice. Again, this is not what we learn from scriptures.

The only ones that I know that do not believe this are Calvinist.  Scripture continually repeats the freedom of man to choose, from Adam to practically every chapter in the NT.


Quote
First, if you are referring to hell as the lake of fire mentioned in the book of Revelations, no one was yet in there. So Christ did not save anyone from hell in that sense. Second, as for Christ providing hell as a consequence of man's choice,  we find that nowhere in scriptures. Besides the lake of fire, that is, Hell, is not only there for the unsaved man, but was there even before man existed, in as much as it is the final destination of the devils.
first we are not concerned with devils. They are NEVER included in the salvation of man or the world.
The rest of my comment on  this see the above statement.

Quote
Apparently, there are plenty of contradictions in your belief.
As compared to yours, but you have not shown any scripture eithr in defense of your belief nor refuted anything I stated.

Quote
In your belief, before Christ did what He did, the dead are annihilated and ceased to exist. Then you believe that the souls of these very annihilated and nonexistent people went to the same place. How can non-existent people be in a place, even in the same place? Then you speak of Christ at one time entering Hades and took captive those held there and brought them to paradise or heaven. Then you have these nonexistent people to be brought to existence again, either to be thrown into Hell or to be in Heaven, not if you say that all of them will come to have eternal life in heaven, so that none of them will be going to hell. Then you have the soul as the same with the body to be of dust and will return to dust at death and ceased to exist as well. It's not different from saying the at death, the soul dies as well. But then we have scriptures speaking of the body as can be killed by men but not the soul. That's a lot of contradictions, false ideas, and unscriptural matter there. 
You aught to do a study of theology and how a theological argement is made.  You comments above are a total, complete misunderstanding of the argument and of scripture. 
Just a note, none of the above was ever stated or even implied in anything I stated.  They sre simply your inability to follow an argument.   
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Sun Dec 24, 2017 - 13:41:36
The breath of life that God breathed into Man is more properly the spirit of man as distinguished from soul.  Soul strictly speaking simply designates a living being.  It is, again strictly speaking, the spirit formed in man by God (Zech 12:1) that distinguishes man from the other animals, the other living creatures, i.e., souls.

Gen 1:20  Then God said, "Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures [Hebrew -- nephesh], and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens."

Gen 1:24  Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures [Hebrew -- nephesh] after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind"; and it was so.

Gen 2:7  Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath [Hebrew --  neshama] of life; and man became a living being [Hebrew --  nephesh] .


Nephesh --  living being, living creature, soul.    a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature....

Neshama --  wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect,  inspiration, soul, spirit.

In speaking of man and mankind, soul and spirit are typically used interchangeably in both the OT and the NT.
Your argument does not really change anything.  Your comparison with an animal should clarify it for you.   We are wholly a created being we have nothing in us that is divine or of God Himself.

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Sun Dec 24, 2017 - 13:56:03
Your argument does not really change anything.  Your comparison with an animal should clarify it for you.   We are wholly a created being we have nothing in us that is divine or of God Himself.
Who said anything about being divine of of God Himself?  You said
Quote
the breath of God was life, not the soul.
I showed you that a soul, strictly speaking a living being, i.e. physical life.  That is in fact quite apart from the spirit of man which God forms within him.  It is just that in the OT and the NT when speaking of man, very often the soul and the spirit are used interchangeably; the spirit not subject to physical death.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Sun Dec 24, 2017 - 15:45:18
4WD,

Quote
I showed you that a soul, strictly speaking a living being, i.e. physical life.  That is in fact quite apart from the spirit of man which God forms within him.  It is just that in the OT and the NT when speaking of man, very often the soul and the spirit are used interchangeably; the spirit not subject to physical death.
which is not correct.  If it is created and is part of man it was subject to death, physical death.  Everything in this created order was under the condemnation of death, which is body and soul.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Sun Dec 24, 2017 - 16:26:05
4WD,
 which is not correct.  If it is created and is part of man it was subject to death, physical death.  Everything in this created order was under the condemnation of death, which is body and soul.
Sez you, but not the Scriptures.  The spirit is not physical and therefore not subject to physical death.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Sun Dec 24, 2017 - 16:41:25
Sez you, but not the Scriptures.  The spirit is not physical and therefore not subject to physical death.
It is precisely scriptural and it is subject to death.   Has been held as such for 2000 years. Factually the concept of the Incarnation was subject to false  teachings in the early years.  This whole issue of the Incarnation was clarified in the Ecumenical Council at Ephesus in 431. Which includes the fact that Christ assumed our whole human nature, body and soul for the express purpose to redeem that human nature.

Granted you do not hold to what scripture actually means, but rather your own personal interpretation, it does not change what it has always meant.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Mon Dec 25, 2017 - 01:20:12
Thats not my question.
My question was based on your statement "it matters not that you have eternal life if you are not walking in obedience to God"

How can one not walk in obedience to God and have eternal life at the same time?

Your statements indicates that one can have eternal life, but if one is not walking in obedience to God, it doesn't matter that one has eternal life.

In case you missed it, or didn't even read what I gave you in explanation...

Or perhaps its that reading comprehension again...

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Mon Dec 25, 2017 - 01:45:33
Michael said...

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Quote from: SwordMaster on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 15:44:17

   
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That is what I am saying...you cannot have eternal life if you are not walking in obedience to God.


One might see nothing wrong in that. But then, eternal life is a gift, not a reward or wage.


That is correct...a gift of the covenant for those who remain abiding in the covenant.

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Since, in most of your posts, you speak of covenants and points to it, more than anything else, as key to understanding scriptures, perhaps you can consider the following:

The Jews ought to follow the covenant commandments of God written in the Law, is it not? And for what is this covenant for? What is it about? What does this covenant have to do with eternal life?

You are confusing issues. The old covenant did not give eternal life in the same way as the New Covenant does, so the question is really moot.

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Now, God made a new covenant, a covenant not like the old one. What is this covenant for? What is this about? What does this covenant have to do with eternal life?

"What is this covenant for?"  A: It is for qualifying you to be able to have a covenant relationship with God.
"What is this about?"  A: It is about being able to enter into, and engage God, in a personal relationship.
"What does this covenant have to do with eternal life?"  A: Two main things; first, the term "eternal life" as used by Jesus throughout the book of John, is mostly used as describing the legal covenant relationship, much like marriage is a legal covenant relationship with which you must be in (in God's eyes) in order to pursue intimate sexual relationship with your spouse. God does not commit spiritual adultry...He does not engage a person in relationship outside the covenant relationship.

Secondly, all that God has given to us in promises, are all bound up within the New Covenant, and are given only to those who remain abiding in that covenant. Will God heal anyone through you if you are not abiding in the covenant? No, He won't...why? Because the covenant is the legal instrument by which He has accorded the authority in Christ's name, along with the power of the Spirit, by which to perform such miracles.

Quote from: SwordMaster on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 15:44:17

 
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   No, there will be no one in hell who has eternal life...but there will be plenty of them who had been saved, and at one time did walk in obedience to God and did have eternal life...who no longer have it. Hence the reason they will be in hell.


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Of course there will be no one in hell who has eternal life. For in hell is death, not life. For where death is, life is not, and where life is, death is not.

Those plenty whom you refer to, as had been saved, and at one time did walk in obedience to God and did have eternal life, but somehow, lost it, who are these people? Do scriptures speak of such people?

You have it wrong there...I did not say that they "lost it," I said that they no longer have it. There is a difference. People slip away, fall away, just as the Scriptures tell us over and over again, which you would be wise to listen to rather than the false teachings of men that directly contradict the Word of God. Here, straight from God Himself...

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II Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

I John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life--to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.

James 5:19-20
My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Matthew 13:18-21
Hear then the parable of the sower: When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.

John 16:1
“I have said all these things to you to keep you from falling away.”

John 15:2
Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

John 15:6
If anyone does not remain abiding in Me, he is rejected, cut off and thrown away like a branch and withers; and they are gathered together, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Matthew 24:10
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.

Galatians 5:4
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

I Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

I Timothy 5:11
But refuse to enroll younger widows, for when their passions draw them away from Christ, they desire to marry

I Timothy 6:10
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.

II Timothy 4:3-4
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

Hebrews 2:1
Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it.

Hebrews 3:12
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to continuously renew themselves to the quality of repentance that they had at the first, seeing as they continually crucify to themselves the Son of God, putting Him to continuous public shame.

Hebrews 13:9
Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited those devoted to them.

Is that enough for you? If not, here are examples of those who have fallen away from God after being saved...

Romans 1:21-32
For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore, God gave them up...

Demas
Colossians 4:14
Luke the beloved physician greets you, as does Demas.

Philemon 1:24
and so do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, and Luke, my fellow workers.

II Timothy 4:10
For Demas, in love with this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica. Crescens has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia.


Hymenaeus

II Timothy 2:16-18
But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some.



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And please explain what you mean by "had been saved". 

You know what it means, Michael. They came to faith in Christ, they repented of their sins, they received baptism into Christ thus being regenerated and indwelt by the Spirit of God...until they ceased walking in obedience to Him. No where is Scripture are we taught that once someone gets saved, they cannot die spiritually and they are bound for heaven with no way on earth that can prevent that from happening. That is false calvinistic theology which flies in the face of the facts of Scripture.




Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Mon Dec 25, 2017 - 04:21:13
Lots of opinion but nothing that can be backed with consistent scriptures.  Our bodies are not gone.  Did Christ have a different body when He arose from the dead?  What do you think will be raised in the last day?
I started a new thread:
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[url]http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/what-happens-when-saintsbelievers-die/m[/url]
I actually gave NO opinions but scriptures, and YOU think that is just opinions......interesting.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Mon Dec 25, 2017 - 11:46:18
(http://www.piney.com/Ephesians2.Rom6.gif)
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Mon Dec 25, 2017 - 13:09:35
It is precisely scriptural and it is subject to death.   Has been held as such for 2000 years. Factually the concept of the Incarnation was subject to false  teachings in the early years.  This whole issue of the Incarnation was clarified in the Ecumenical Council at Ephesus in 431. Which includes the fact that Christ assumed our whole human nature, body and soul for the express purpose to redeem that human nature.

Granted you do not hold to what scripture actually means, but rather your own personal interpretation, it does not change what it has always meant.

You even admit it is not Scripture but rather the Ecumenical Council at Ephesus in 431.  And that like so much of what you claim as scriptural.  When Christ died on the cross, did His soul [His spirit] die also as you proclaim the death of a human to be?  No of course not. No matter what the Ecumenical Council at Ephesus in 431 declared.

Luk 23:44  It was now about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour,
Luk 23:45  while the sun's light failed. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two.
Luk 23:46  Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!" And having said this he breathed his last.


I would note that was not the Holy Spirit that Jesus referred to but His own individual preincarnate Spirit which took on the form of a human being (Php 2:5-8).
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Dec 25, 2017 - 19:10:29
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Please show us where it is stated in the creation of man and explain.

You said "It is the meaning of the Incarnation." What is the meaning?

I agree, "Man is not a human being without both body and soul.". And without a spirit, the body is dead. 
Michael2012,

The creation story states that God made man from the earth. It does not separate any of this creation of man, except to give the creature life.
The meaning of the Incarnation is  that Christ took on all of man, his entire human nature, both body and soul.  Thus His redemption would be of the whole man, mot just a part of it.


The creation of man:

Gen.1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Gen. 2:7 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

God formed man out of dust. What did God formed? The body.
Then God breathed  the breath of life into man's nostrils (body part), and man became a living SOUL.

So, we can see that the soul is not of the dust.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon Dec 25, 2017 - 22:12:52
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No issue about God's omniscience at all Sir. And what is written in the OT, even in the NT was written under the inspiration and guidance of the omniscient God. But we must realize that scriptures was written not for omniscient beings but for the mortal man. As such it was written in human language. Although while for God, things which do not exist are as though they did, that is not how it is with man. You said the soul is treated as immortal in the OT because God knew it would be. In all of scriptures God treats man for what he is at the time, not what he will be at some future time. In God's omniscience, things are as though they already are. And our reality that we experience during our time is the unfolding of what to God is known even from the beginning by His omniscience.
Michael2012, Based on what you have stated above I can only conclude that you believe in "soul sleep". Or you just plead ignorance as to the creation and existence of our souls.

So the Bible is incorrect when it states that the soul goes  into Hades?  That in the story of the witch of Endore in the story of Samuel and Saul it states that Samuel would join Saul.  Several Psalms clearly state the existance of souls in Hades.  In the NT we know  that the souls of believers go to heaven, others to hell.

No Sir. I don't talk of any doctrine like "soul sleep" whatsoever. In death, the body starts to decay to return to dust. The soul does not decay. It does not become dust in death as do the body of flesh.

You said that in the OT times, every soul went to the same place. Granting, are these souls not dead and returned to dust as you said they do together with the body?
 
 quite clearly you are following the theological argument here. Upon the condemnation of death to Adam all things were condemned to permanent death, dust to dust.  But just three verses eariler God promised Adam there would be a correction of this condemnation. Thus from that point on man's soul is treated as immortal, though not immortal.

The soul does not return to dust Sir. In death, the body starts to return to dust, but not the soul. Though the soul is condemned to death due to Adam's fall, at the end of man's earthly life, the soul does not decay unto dust but goes to the place prepared for them. Also, the condemnation did not come only at Gen. 3:19. For in Gen. 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” So, at the very day that Adam and Eve ate of the fruit, they surely died, as God have said.

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You said that Christ becomes the Second Adam. Of course scriptures does not say that. To be more precise, what scriptures say on this is that Christ is the last Adam.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

 Sematics, unless you believe that there are many other Adams in between.

As I said, "To be more precise, what scriptures say on this is that Christ is the last Adam.". 

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You said Jesus Christ reverses the fall. But again, scriptures does not say that. Adam sinned in the beginning, which we refer as the fall. And nothing can change that. But we know the effect of the fall which affected not only Adam and his kind, but even the whole earth and the things that are in it. So we have Paul saying that  through one man, referring to Adam, sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men. So concerning Adam, Paul said that by Adam's offense, many died. But concerning Jesus Christ, the last Adam, Paul said the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.  And the gift is not like that which came through Adam, the judgment that which came from Adam's offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift resulted in justification.
You state that I am incorrect in that Christ reversed the fall. Then you go on to precisely explain exactly that Christ did reverse the fall. You are describing the change from death to life of everyone. You have the fall, death or condemnation in Rom 5:12 then life given to all men in Rom 5:18. How clear can it be?

Then you missed what I said. "Adam sinned in the beginning, which we refer as the fall. And nothing can change that. But we know the effect of the fall which affected not only Adam and his kind, but even the whole earth and the things that are in it." The fall, that is, the disobedience of Adam, could not be reversed. It was a done deed. But the effect of the fall of Adam on mankind can be dealt with, and that is one of the things Jesus have done.

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You said Christ did not save anyone from hell and that He actually provided for it as a consequence of man's choice. Again, this is not what we learn from scriptures.

The only ones that I know that do not believe this are Calvinist.  Scripture continually repeats the freedom of man to choose, from Adam to practically every chapter in the NT.

There is no issue that man is free to choose. The issue is that scriptures does not say what you say that Christ actually provided for hell as a consequence of man's choice.

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First, if you are referring to hell as the lake of fire mentioned in the book of Revelations, no one was yet in there. So Christ did not save anyone from hell in that sense. Second, as for Christ providing hell as a consequence of man's choice,  we find that nowhere in scriptures. Besides the lake of fire, that is, Hell, is not only there for the unsaved man, but was there even before man existed, in as much as it is the final destination of the devils.
first we are not concerned with devils. They are NEVER included in the salvation of man or the world.
The rest of my comment on  this see the above statement
.

That's right we are not talking about devils. But we are talking about hell, the lake of fire. So, again, Christ providing hell as a consequence of man's choice,  we find that nowhere in scriptures. That Hell was provided for even before Christ came, and even before man was created, as Hell was already provided for the sinner, either the devil or the man.

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Apparently, there are plenty of contradictions in your belief.
As compared to yours, but you have not shown any scripture eithr in defense of your belief nor refuted anything I stated.
I am not the one whose belief is under discussion and examination, but yours. So, if you can't defend your beliefs, as have been shown of the many contradictions with scriptures, if that is not evidence to being refuted, I don't know what refutation is for you.

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In your belief, before Christ did what He did, the dead are annihilated and ceased to exist. Then you believe that the souls of these very annihilated and nonexistent people went to the same place. How can non-existent people be in a place, even in the same place? Then you speak of Christ at one time entering Hades and took captive those held there and brought them to paradise or heaven. Then you have these nonexistent people to be brought to existence again, either to be thrown into Hell or to be in Heaven, not if you say that all of them will come to have eternal life in heaven, so that none of them will be going to hell. Then you have the soul as the same with the body to be of dust and will return to dust at death and ceased to exist as well. It's not different from saying the at death, the soul dies as well. But then we have scriptures speaking of the body as can be killed by men but not the soul. That's a lot of contradictions, false ideas, and unscriptural matter there.

You aught to do a study of theology and how a theological argement is made.  You comments above are a total, complete misunderstanding of the argument and of scripture. 
Just a note, none of the above was ever stated or even implied in anything I stated.  They sre simply your inability to follow an argument.


And now, seemingly, after the exchanges, we see you go to such line of defending your belief. Anyone can do that, but it does not defend one's belief.

And you seem to be in denial now. Perhaps, I need to show you.

1. In your belief, before Christ did what He did, the dead are annihilated and ceased to exist.
2.  Then you believe that the souls of these very annihilated and nonexistent people went to the same place.

If Christ does not redeem mankind from death, all men cease to exist as human beings. They return to dust from whence they came, Gen 3:19
no, physical death, the annihilation of man which would be the result of the condemnation to Adam, permanent dust to dust. Gen
Might also add that throughout the OT there is no heaven or hell but only Hades or Gehenna, and Sheol.  Every soul went to the same place.[/b] 

3. Then you have the soul as the same with the body to be of dust and will return to dust at death and ceased to exist as well. It's not different from saying that at death, the soul dies as well.

Quote from: Michael2012 on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 22:11:25
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The question is not if man was created immortal or not, but that, if you are saying that man's soul, like his body, return to dust, which your statement " If Christ does not redeem mankind from death, all men cease to exist as human beings. They return to dust from whence they came, Gen 3:19" implies, if Christ have not done what He did.

What, in what you teach and believe, is your answer to the question? I'll state the question yet again:

Are you saying that man's soul, like his body, return to dust, if Christ have not done what He did? Yes or No,
Yes.

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Mon Dec 25, 2017 - 22:59:57
You even admit it is not Scripture but rather the Ecumenical Council at Ephesus in 431.  And that like so much of what you claim as scriptural.  When Christ died on the cross, did His soul [His spirit] die also as you proclaim the death of a human to be?  No of course not. No matter what the Ecumenical Council at Ephesus in 431 declared.


which is completely based on what scripture has always meant.  Your assumption is that scripture had no meaning prior to when you read it so you can declare your personal opinion as to what it might mean,.
Never stated our souls died.  Especially since Christ died and was raised, defeating death brought on by the condemnation to Adam.  You lack understanding of scripture and will always have this problem as long as you think you can actually interpret scripture as an abstract.

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Luk 23:44  It was now about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour,
Luk 23:45  while the sun's light failed. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two.
Luk 23:46  Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!" And having said this he breathed his last.


I would note that was not the Holy Spirit that Jesus referred to but His own individual preincarnate Spirit which took on the form of a human being (Php 2:5-8).
baring that it is an incorrect scriptural statement, (Christ did not take on a form of a human being), it confirms what I have been saying, in that we needed Christ to defeat death.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Mon Dec 25, 2017 - 23:11:51
Michael2012,

The creation story states that God made man from the earth. It does not separate any of this creation of man, except to give the creature life.
The meaning of the Incarnation is  that Christ took on all of man, his entire human nature, both body and soul.  Thus His redemption would be of the whole man, mot just a part of it.



The creation of man:

Gen.1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Gen. 2:7 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

God formed man out of dust. What did God formed? The body.
Then God breathed  the breath of life into man's nostrils (body part), and man became a living SOUL.

So, we can see that the soul is not of the dust.
It is nice you just assert and make an assumption  that is not consistent with scripture. If man is indeed a dual entity with a body of the earth, and the soul divine, then there are at least two options. The souls of all human beings are immortal as part of God's essence,  and we are all partly God, assuming you also believe God created ex nihilo. Or that our souls preexisted creation itself.
How do you explain your assumption and keep it scriptural in that all of man is a created creature from the earth.
Or you are espousing the false teaching that Christ was only God and simply took on the form of man, but was not man. That was the  teaching that the Council of Ephesus rejected.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Mon Dec 25, 2017 - 23:47:05
Michae2012,

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The soul does not return to dust Sir. In death, the body starts to return to dust, but not the soul. Though the soul is condemned to death due to Adam's fall, at the end of man's earthly life, the soul does not decay unto dust but goes to the place prepared for them. Also, the condemnation did not come only at Gen. 3:19. For in Gen. 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” So, at the very day that Adam and Eve ate of the fruit, they surely died, as God have said.
Never stated it actually dies. This is where you did not follow the theological argument of the consequence of Adam's sin, God's promise of deliverence, thus God knows and relates this in scripture that the soul does not die.

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As I said, "To be more precise, what scriptures say on this is that Christ is the last Adam.". 
it may be precise, but how does that change the meaning?

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Then you missed what I said. "Adam sinned in the beginning, which we refer as the fall. And nothing can change that. But we know the effect of the fall which affected not only Adam and his kind, but even the whole earth and the things that are in it." The fall, that is, the disobedience of Adam, could not be reversed. It was a done deed. But the effect of the fall of Adam on mankind can be dealt with, and that is one of the things Jesus have done.
but we are not speaking of the act of Adam at all.  It is the consequence of that act that defines our fall which is what affected the entire creation. That actual act of Adam's sin did nothing to creation, but only with Adam and his relationship with God. Which is why sin cannot be inherited but death is inherited and it was death that Christ reversed.

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There is no issue that man is free to choose. The issue is that scriptures does not say what you say that Christ actually provided for hell as a consequence of man's choice.
that's because your understanding is not consistant with scripture. You have an incoherent understanding.  Now, follow the theological argument.  IF Christ does not come, there is no hell or heaven to begin with. Man simply dies and returns to dust.  Thus, because Christ reversed the fall, death, now Christ also needs to provide an eternal place of existance for human being, either heaven or hell. 

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I am not the one whose belief is under discussion and examination, but yours. So, if you can't defend your beliefs, as have been shown of the many contradictions with scriptures, if that is not evidence to being refuted, I don't know what refutation is for you.
quite the contrary, It is the meaning of scripture that is under discussion.  You have not given any evidence that your view is scriptural when  it is not even consistant.
You are simply taking a verse or two from one part of scripture, assigning a meaning, your interpretation to it.  Then elsewhere you pick a verse or two and declare a view that contradicts your earlier one as if it matters not that they are not consistent.


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And now, seemingly, after the exchanges, we see you go to such line of defending your belief. Anyone can do that, but it does not defend one's belief.

And you seem to be in denial now. Perhaps, I need to show you.

1. In your belief, before Christ did what He did, the dead are annihilated and ceased to exist.
never stated this. This is part of your misunderstanding of what I actually stated.
Quote
2. Then you believe that the souls of these very annihilated and nonexistent people went to the same place.
not correct following your reasoning, but correct if you follow my argument, rather than your totally misunderstanding of the scriptural argument.
Quote
3. Then you have the soul as the same with the body to be of dust and will return to dust at death and ceased to exist as well. It's not different from saying that at death, the soul dies as well.
again your interpretation since nothing above is what I ever stated.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Tue Dec 26, 2017 - 00:35:26
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The creation of man:

Gen.1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Gen. 2:7 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

God formed man out of dust. What did God formed? The body.
Then God breathed  the breath of life into man's nostrils (body part), and man became a living SOUL.

So, we can see that the soul is not of the dust.

It is nice you just assert and make an assumption  that is not consistent with scripture. If man is indeed a dual entity with a body of the earth, and the soul divine, then there are at least two options. The souls of all human beings are immortal as part of God's essence,  and we are all partly God, assuming you also believe God created ex nihilo. Or that our souls preexisted creation itself.
How do you explain your assumption and keep it scriptural in that all of man is a created creature from the earth.
Or you are espousing the false teaching that Christ was only God and simply took on the form of man, but was not man. That was the  teaching that the Council of Ephesus rejected.


Not an assumption Sir. It's my understanding. Likewise, what you say of man is also not an assumption but your understanding of the scriptures.

And here you seem to put words in my mouth, for I did not speak of a divine soul and of an immortal soul, which I did not say anything about.  I am not saying anything like that Sir. 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Tue Dec 26, 2017 - 02:39:44
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The soul does not return to dust Sir. In death, the body starts to return to dust, but not the soul. Though the soul is condemned to death due to Adam's fall, at the end of man's earthly life, the soul does not decay unto dust but goes to the place prepared for them. Also, the condemnation did not come only at Gen. 3:19. For in Gen. 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” So, at the very day that Adam and Eve ate of the fruit, they surely died, as God have said.
Michae2012,
Never stated it actually dies. This is where you did not follow the theological argument of the consequence of Adam's sin, God's promise of deliverence, thus God knows and relates this in scripture that the soul does not die.

God said "in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." Can't be any clearer than that.

God's promise of deliverance was after the transgression of Adam. Besides this has nothing to do with the truth that the soul dies.   

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As I said, "To be more precise, what scriptures say on this is that Christ is the last Adam.".
it may be precise, but how does that change the meaning?

Nobody said anything about the meaning changed. What was changed is what is written in scriptures. It's not "second", it's "last" Adam. 
 
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Then you missed what I said. "Adam sinned in the beginning, which we refer as the fall. And nothing can change that. But we know the effect of the fall which affected not only Adam and his kind, but even the whole earth and the things that are in it." The fall, that is, the disobedience of Adam, could not be reversed. It was a done deed. But the effect of the fall of Adam on mankind can be dealt with, and that is one of the things Jesus have done.
but we are not speaking of the act of Adam at all.  It is the consequence of that act that defines our fall which is what affected the entire creation. That actual act of Adam's sin did nothing to creation, but only with Adam and his relationship with God. Which is why sin cannot be inherited but death is inherited and it was death that Christ reversed.

You spoke of the "fall", and not "the effect or consequence of the fall". That is why I clarified, saying ""Adam sinned in the beginning, which we refer as the fall." So, it's clear now that you are referring to the consequence of Adam's transgression, rather than the act of transgression.

You said "it was death that Christ reversed". No Sir. Death is not reversed, whatever that means, rather Death will be destroyed.

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There is no issue that man is free to choose. The issue is that scriptures does not say what you say that Christ actually provided for hell as a consequence of man's choice.
that's because your understanding is not consistant with scripture. You have an incoherent understanding.  Now, follow the theological argument.  IF Christ does not come, there is no hell or heaven to begin with. Man simply dies and returns to dust.  Thus, because Christ reversed the fall, death, now Christ also needs to provide an eternal place of existance for human being, either heaven or hell. 

No Sir. It's simply that scriptures does not say that. If there are scriptures that speaks of Christ actually providing for hell as a consequence of man's choice, please do show us. Else, such idea stands to be outside of scriptures.

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I am not the one whose belief is under discussion and examination, but yours. So, if you can't defend your beliefs, as have been shown of the many contradictions with scriptures, if that is not evidence to being refuted, I don't know what refutation is for you.

quite the contrary, It is the meaning of scripture that is under discussion.  You have not given any evidence that your view is scriptural when  it is not even consistant.
You are simply taking a verse or two from one part of scripture, assigning a meaning, your interpretation to it.  Then elsewhere you pick a verse or two and declare a view that contradicts your earlier one as if it matters not that they are not consistent.

As I said, it's your view that is under discussion here, not mine. Our discussion started in Reply #287. I questioned your view. So you defend your view. But if you now can't, that's it then.

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And now, seemingly, after the exchanges, we see you go to such line of defending your belief. Anyone can do that, but it does not defend one's belief.

And you seem to be in denial now. Perhaps, I need to show you.

1. In your belief, before Christ did what He did, the dead are annihilated and ceased to exist.

 never stated this. This is part of your misunderstanding of what I actually stated.
Haven't you seen your quoted posts?
 
If Christ does not redeem mankind from death, all men cease to exist as human beings. They return to dust from whence they came, Gen 3:19
no, physical death, the annihilation of man which would be the result of the condemnation to Adam, permanent dust to dust. Gen

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2. Then you believe that the souls of these very annihilated and nonexistent people went to the same place.

not correct following your reasoning, but correct if you follow my argument, rather than your totally misunderstanding of the scriptural argument.

I stated what you believe, which I point out as erroneous. Erroneous in the sense that, if we are to take that Christ did not do what he did, and you say people then in death are annihilated or cease to exist, and at the same time go in the same place. For when people are annihilated and exist no more, they don't go to any place. For in that case, they will be in that place and so still exist, only that they are dead.

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3. Then you have the soul as the same with the body to be of dust and will return to dust at death and ceased to exist as well. It's not different from saying that at death, the soul dies as well.

again your interpretation since nothing above is what I ever stated.

Again, you seem to not see your quoted posts.

Quote from: Michael2012 on Fri Dec 22, 2017 - 22:11:25
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The question is not if man was created immortal or not, but that, if you are saying that man's soul, like his body, return to dust, which your statement " If Christ does not redeem mankind from death, all men cease to exist as human beings. They return to dust from whence they came, Gen 3:19" implies, if Christ have not done what He did.

What, in what you teach and believe, is your answer to the question? I'll state the question yet again:

Are you saying that man's soul, like his body, return to dust, if Christ have not done what He did? Yes or No,
Yes.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Tue Dec 26, 2017 - 04:08:40
Michael and Thaddaeus you both need to come to this thread and reason:
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[url]http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/what-happens-when-saintsbelievers-die/m[/url]
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Tue Dec 26, 2017 - 04:16:51
Michael2012, Based on what you have stated above I can only conclude that you believe in "soul sleep". Or you just plead ignorance as to the creation and existence of our souls.

So the Bible is incorrect when it states that the soul goes  into Hades?  That in the story of the witch of Endore in the story of Samuel and Saul it states that Samuel would join Saul.  Several Psalms clearly state the existance of souls in Hades.  In the NT we know  that the souls of believers go to heaven, others to hell.
You are wrong, by saying this, I'm not agreeing with all that Michael is saying UNTIL I can hear both of you out. Come to this thread and reason with me and others:
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[url]http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/what-happens-when-saintsbelievers-die/m[/url]
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Tue Dec 26, 2017 - 04:28:01
No Sir. I don't talk of any doctrine like "soul sleep" whatsoever. In death, the body starts to decay to return to dust. The soul does not decay. It does not become dust in death as do the body of flesh.

The soul does not return to dust Sir. In death, the body starts to return to dust, but not the soul. Though the soul is condemned to death due to Adam's fall, at the end of man's earthly life, the soul does not decay unto dust but goes to the place prepared for them.
Michael come here:
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[url]http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/what-happens-when-saintsbelievers-die/m[/url]
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In death, the body starts to decay to return to dust. The soul does not decay. It does not become dust in death as do the body of flesh.
Agreed
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but goes to the place prepared for them
This is ONLY true of those who have part in the first resurrection but NOT true of those who do not~they live NOT UNTIL the thousand years (or, the totality of time in God's timeline of biblical prophecy) are finished and then they shall come forth at that day, to be judged, only to be sentenced to the second death, which IS the lake of fire. Come here:
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[url]http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/what-happens-when-saintsbelievers-die/m[/url]
let us reason together. 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Tue Dec 26, 2017 - 05:55:07
Your assumption is that scripture had no meaning prior to when you read it so you can declare your personal opinion as to what it might mean,.
I didn't say nor did I imply that scripture had no meaning prior to when I read it.  I will say that there was much error in what "the Church" thought the meaning of some scripture was.  And you are quite content to continue that error.
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Never stated our souls died.  Especially since Christ died and was raised, defeating death brought on by the condemnation to Adam.  You lack understanding of scripture and will always have this problem as long as you think you can actually interpret scripture as an abstract.
It is you and your "church" that tends to interpret scripture as an abstract, throwing in your so-called "sacred traditions" superseding the real meaning of God's word.  The physical death of Adam was not the result of sin.  Rather Adam's sin got him kicked out of the Garden and prevented his access to the tree of life which obviously was there to prevent him from dying the inherent natural death of the physical body.
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baring that it is an incorrect scriptural statement, (Christ did not take on a form of a human being), it confirms what I have been saying, in that we needed Christ to defeat death.
I am not sure what you are trying to say there, but the simple fact is that it is not physical death which Jesus came to defeat, but rather the God's wrath of eternal condemnation of the spirit of the one who sins.  It is obvious that physical death is not defeated.  All will die physically and in the resurrection is the spiritual body, not the physical body, which lives (1 Corinthians 15).  The physical body is gone, fini, caput,......never to rise again.

1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

1Co 15:47  The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
1Co 15:48  As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
1Co 15:49  Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

Ecc 12:7  and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Tue Dec 26, 2017 - 06:41:12
If man is indeed a dual entity with a body of the earth, and the soul divine, then there are at least two options. The souls of all human beings are immortal as part of God's essence,  and we are all partly God, assuming you also believe God created ex nihilo. Or that our souls preexisted creation itself.
That is sheer foolishness, Thaddaeus.  No one has said anything about our souls [spirits] being divine or preexisting creation.  Our spirits are simply spiritual, i.e., not physical.  Spiritual doesn't mean divine nor does it equate to being divine.  And while the Bible says that God formed our spirits, it doesn't say when He formed them.  But it does suggest, I think, that it is sometime in the procreation process.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: RB on Tue Dec 26, 2017 - 08:08:53
The physical body is gone, fini, caput,......never to rise again.
This IS a absolute bible truth! God is the God of the LIVING NOT of the dead, which is the case of ALL who have died~so, that being said, all who had part in the first Resurrection of which Christ is the FIRST FRUIT of all that have risen, all who are children of God rose in him and are NOW enjoying the fruit of his birth, life, and death and resurrection are LIVING and REIGNING with him NOW~THEM will God bring with them at the SECOND resurrection at the last day and gather all of the body TOGETHER, so shall we ever be with the Lord. We which are alive and remain shall be CHANGED and GIVEN a NEW BODY that shall be fashion like unto his GLORIOUS body...like Moses and Elijah had when they were with him on the holy mount....a BODY that they had ALREADY received~since as the scriptures said, God is NOT the God of dead, but living! Selah!

I'm going to add this post here: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/what-happens-when-saintsbelievers-die/m
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Tue Dec 26, 2017 - 11:36:24
OF THE CREATION OF ADAM Jesus warned against parables from the foundation of the World:

Matt. 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,
      I will open my mouth in parables;
      I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Because of the idolatry at Mount Sinai, Moses wrote an INVERTED version of the Sumerian and other's clay tablets.  Their HUMANOID was made to do the labor of TIRED GODS who demanded that SLAVES be created: they used the blood of a bad "god" and mixed it with dust or slime (Douay) to create humans so the gods or "senior ministers" could rest.

After the first account in Genesis by the Elohim, the Lord [YHWH] as the only true God [Elohim] REcreated to show that God finished the WORKS to serve humans:

Isa. 45:18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens;
        God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it,
        he created it NOT IN VAIN he formed it to be inhabited:
        I am the Lord; and there is none else.

Sumer developed in CONFLICT with the ABORIGINES "from the earth."
Sumer, or the ‘land of civilized kings’, flourished in Mesopotamia, now modern-day Iraq, around 4500 BC. Sumerians created an advanced civilization with its own system of elaborate language and writing, architecture and arts, astronomy and mathematics. Their religious system was a complex one comprised of hundreds of gods. According to the ancient texts, each Sumerian city was guarded by its own god; and while humans and gods used to live together, the humans were servants to the gods.

God Abandoned the Jews to that same worship restricted to the Jacob-Cursed and God-Abandoned tribe of Levi whom Jacob warned against in Genesis 49

The word in Ashurit or the Ancient Aramaic connotes "aboriginal man."

When Cain left the nest there were lots of people on the earth.

THE FIRST ADAM. Adam was made of dust and he is defined as an Aborigines or Autochlothone: an earthly man. Being OF the World he has no Spiritual feelings.

Gen. 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
        and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
        and man became a living soul.

IN CONTRAST TO THE SUMERIAN CREATION ACCOUNTS OF MAKING LITTLE IMAGES OF CLAY AND BLOWING INTO THEM TO MAKE A SOUND.

SUMERIANS USED ABORIGINES AS SLAVES: ADAM WAS AN ABORIGINE CREATED TO BE SERVED.

Terra (archaic tera  B. Personified, Terra, the Earth, as a goddess; “usu. called Tellus, Magna Mater, Ceres, Cybele, etc.: jam si est Ceres a gerendo, Terra ipsa dea est et ita habetur: quae est enim alia Tellus?” “terrā orti,” natives of the soil, aborigines, autochthones,

Quint. 3, 7, 26 Cities are praised after the same fashion as men.
        The founder takes the place of the parent,
        and antiquity carries great authority,
        as for instance in the case of those whose inhabitants
        are said to be sprung from the soil.

The virtues and vices revealed by their deeds are the same as in private individuals. The advantages arising from site or fortifications are however peculiar to cities. Their citizens enhance their fame just as children bring honour to their parents.

God FORMED: formo    to shape, form, regulate, dispose, direct; to prepare, compose partim ratione formare,
Ratio  2. Pregn., that faculty of the mind which forms the basis of computation and calculation, and hence of mental action in general, i. e. judgment, understanding, reason:
A human being Inspiro to breathe into, inspire, excite, inflame: “occultum ignem,”

The Jews had a COVENANT WITH DEATH AND HEAL Amos defined their worship.

John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

infernus, underground, belonging to the Lower Regions, infernal: tenebrae, [darkness was upon the face of the earth] “infernas umbras carminibus elicere,” to raise the dead by magical incantations, HELL hell (eccl. Lat.), Ambros. in Psa. 48, §§ 22, 24; Vulg. Job, 17, 13; id. Psa. 9, 18. —
    3. inferni , ōrum, m., the shades below: “Theseus infernis, superis testatur Achilles,” Prop. 2, 1, 37; 2, 28, 49.—  [Judas Goats-cappellas--probably know that they HAD ONCE fooled the whole world as sorcerers]

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Tue Dec 26, 2017 - 12:12:41
4WD,

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I didn't say nor did I imply that scripture had no meaning prior to when I read it.  I will say that there was much error in what "the Church" thought the meaning of some scripture was.  And you are quite content to continue that error.
of course then the assumption must be that the Holy Spirit got it wrong, or the Apostles got it wrong, or that the Holy Spirit lied when He stated He will never leave His Church, and preserve it and the revelation entrusted to it.

No matter how you spin it, all you have is personal opinion which is currently competing with thousands of others as to what it might have meant. Hardly preserved.

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It is you and your "church" that tends to interpret scripture as an abstract, throwing in your so-called "sacred traditions" superseding the real meaning of God's word.  The physical death of Adam was not the result of sin.  Rather Adam's sin got him kicked out of the Garden and prevented his access to the tree of life which obviously was there to prevent him from dying the inherent natural death of the physical body.
It is Christ's Church, He established it and is perserving it and the revelation given to it.  God's written word IS PART OF THAT TRADITION. 

the rest is your opinion again. Where is your evidence that overturns scripture? Scripture disagrees with your opinion again.

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I am not sure what you are trying to say there, but the simple fact is that it is not physical death which Jesus came to defeat, but rather the God's wrath of eternal condemnation of the spirit of the one who sins.  It is obvious that physical death is not defeated. 
which you still have not given any evidence to your point.  So, you don't believe Christ was risen from the dead? You don't believe He is coming again?

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All will die physically and in the resurrection is the spiritual body, not the physical body, which lives (1 Corinthians 15).  The physical body is gone, fini, caput,......never to rise again.
Well, you obviously are not reading scripture called the Bible. All will be raised in the last day. You have cut out much of Chapter 15. It is all about physial death and physial resurrection. Those bodies will be changed but they will never cease to be a physical body, just as Christ's was a physical body upon His ascension. Same as the bodies of Moses and Elijah at the configuration of Jesus.  The better text to use is I Cor 15:52-54 which states very clearly that all the dead will be raised, then all will be made incorruptible an immortal.  Clearly refutes your assertion, as does the rest of the chapter that preceeds it.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Tue Dec 26, 2017 - 12:33:27
Michael2012,

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You said "it was death that Christ reversed". No Sir. Death is not reversed, whatever that means, rather Death will be destroyed.
how was death destroyed? Who destroyed it?

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No Sir. It's simply that scriptures does not say that. If there are scriptures that speaks of Christ actually providing for hell as a consequence of man's choice, please do show us. Else, such idea stands to be outside of scriptures.
it is called logical reasoning.  Your statement has no other meaning in that you don't believe in  the consequence of Adam's sin therefore it does not require salvation from it.

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As I said, it's your view that is under discussion here, not mine. Our discussion started in Reply #287. I questioned your view. So you defend your view. But if you now can't, that's it then.
I don't have a view to begin with. I am supporting the historical, scriptural meaning of scripture. A view that millions, many millions have believed for two millennia now.  It seems you have no evidence to refute that historical reference.

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I stated what you believe, which I point out as erroneous. Erroneous in the sense that, if we are to take that Christ did not do what he did, and you say people then in death are annihilated or cease to exist, and at the same time go in the same place. For when people are annihilated and exist no more, they don't go to any place. For in that case, they will be in that place and so still exist, only that they are dead.
you quote it, but then red out the part you need, which makes my statement erroneous because you did not include the condition on which it is based.  Maybe this is what you do with scripture which then will make your statement erroneous as well. You have so contorted what I state in the above it is completely vacuous of meaning.  Just a summation of your total misunderstanding.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Tue Dec 26, 2017 - 15:06:06
4WD,
 Well, you obviously are not reading scripture called the Bible. All will be raised in the last day. You have cut out much of Chapter 15. It is all about physial death and physial resurrection. Those bodies will be changed but they will never cease to be a physical body, just as Christ's was a physical body upon His ascension. Same as the bodies of Moses and Elijah at the configuration of Jesus.  The better text to use is I Cor 15:52-54 which states very clearly that all the dead will be raised, then all will be made incorruptible an immortal.  Clearly refutes your assertion, as does the rest of the chapter that preceeds it.

1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

1Co 15:47  The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
1Co 15:48  As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
1Co 15:49  Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

Ecc 12:7  and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Tue Dec 26, 2017 - 18:08:16
1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

1Co 15:47  The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
1Co 15:48  As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
1Co 15:49  Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

Ecc 12:7  and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Great texts that I totally believe, but just how are you refuting what I have stated?
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Wed Dec 27, 2017 - 00:45:58
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You said "it was death that Christ reversed". No Sir. Death is not reversed, whatever that means, rather Death will be destroyed.
how was death destroyed? Who destroyed it?

You can perhaps explain what you mean by death being reversed.

If you read carefully, what I said is Death will be destroyed. While Christ had defeated death by His resurrection from the dead, death will yet be destroyed at the end. And of course who can destroy death but God?

1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

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No Sir. It's simply that scriptures does not say that. If there are scriptures that speaks of Christ actually providing for hell as a consequence of man's choice, please do show us. Else, such idea stands to be outside of scriptures.

it is called logical reasoning.  Your statement has no other meaning in that you don't believe in  the consequence of Adam's sin therefore it does not require salvation from it.

And logical reasoning is not scriptures. Besides, each of us all have a sense of logical reasoning. But that does not mean that what our reasoning says to us is scriptures nor is what scriptures says. As it is, you have not shown scriptures that speaks of Christ actually providing for hell as a consequence of man's choice. 

And what made you think that I don't believe in the consequence of Adam's sin? I believe what God says in scriptures. And regarding this, scriptures says that Adam sinned, and on the day he and Eve sinned, they died (Gen.3), for so God has clearly said in Gen. 2 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” And because of Adam's sin, sin entered the world and death through sin, so that death reigned through Adam, and because of Adam's offense, judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation (Rom. 5). Do man need to be delivered from this? Definitely, unless you think otherwise.   

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As I said, it's your view that is under discussion here, not mine. Our discussion started in Reply #287. I questioned your view. So you defend your view. But if you now can't, that's it then.
I don't have a view to begin with. I am supporting the historical, scriptural meaning of scripture. A view that millions, many millions have believed for two millennia now.  It seems you have no evidence to refute that historical reference.

To say you don't have a view is like saying you are blind. But you do have a view. And you are taking the view of men in the past which you are convinced to be the correct view. And that is what you must try to defend, and which I am questioning. By not being able to give scriptural answers to the questions is by itself a refutation of the said view. So, go ahead and provide us your scriptural answers. If not, then that's it. Perhaps then you can consider looking at the scriptures yourself, rather than just taking other's view of the scriptures.   

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I stated what you believe, which I point out as erroneous. Erroneous in the sense that, if we are to take that Christ did not do what he did, and you say people then in death are annihilated or cease to exist, and at the same time go in the same place. For when people are annihilated and exist no more, they don't go to any place. For in that case, they will be in that place and so still exist, only that they are dead.

you quote it, but then red out the part you need, which makes my statement erroneous because you did not include the condition on which it is based.  Maybe this is what you do with scripture which then will make your statement erroneous as well. You have so contorted what I state in the above it is completely vacuous of meaning.  Just a summation of your total misunderstanding.

It's not my practice doing that Sir. What I "red" out is that part of what you said that speaks of your position and point. Let me illustrate that for you and the readers in this board.

I said: "Then you have the soul as the same with the body to be of dust and will return to dust at death and ceased to exist as well. It's not different from saying that at death, the soul dies as well."

This came from this exchange:

Michael: Are you saying that man's soul, like his body, return to dust, if Christ have not done what He did? Yes or No,

Thaddaeus: Yes. (see your Reply #316).

Go ahead and show me by the same illustration, how your accusing statement "You have so contorted what I state in the above it is completely vacuous of meaning" holds true. I'd be most willing to make rectification if it was the case. Or perhaps, you can just clarify or change your position then, if you say that is not what you said nor mean to say.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Wed Dec 27, 2017 - 02:03:32
Michael said...
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One might see nothing wrong in that. But then, eternal life is a gift, not a reward or wage.

That is correct...a gift of the covenant for those who remain abiding in the covenant.

And I have to point out to be clear, eternal life is not a reward or wage for any good work done in obedience to God's commandments, or anything else. It is a gift given to the children of God, not based on anything that it is given, except on the loving kindness of God ~ grace. 

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Since, in most of your posts, you speak of covenants and points to it, more than anything else, as key to understanding scriptures, perhaps you can consider the following:

The Jews ought to follow the covenant commandments of God written in the Law, is it not? And for what is this covenant for? What is it about? What does this covenant have to do with eternal life?
You are confusing issues. The old covenant did not give eternal life in the same way as the New Covenant does, so the question is really moot.

You said "The old covenant did not give eternal life in the same way as the New Covenant does". Please explain. Thank you.

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Now, God made a new covenant, a covenant not like the old one. What is this covenant for? What is this about? What does this covenant have to do with eternal life?
"What is this covenant for?"  A: It is for qualifying you to be able to have a covenant relationship with God.

That is obvious, for a covenant by itself spells out a relationship between those in covenant. Is that all the new covenant was for?

Two points.

One is more of a confusion. I don't seem to understand the sense of how a covenant is for qualifying you to be able to have a covenant relationship with God.

Just a point, I think that no two parties enters into covenant without both having some kind of relationship in the first place. Just like before a man and a woman enters into a marriage covenant with each other. What can you say about this point? 

"What is this about?"  A: It is about being able to enter into, and engage God, in a personal relationship.

Again, that is a given, based on what you said what the covenant is for above. But is that all that it is about?

"What does this covenant have to do with eternal life?"  A: Two main things; first, the term "eternal life" as used by Jesus throughout the book of John, is mostly used as describing the legal covenant relationship, much like marriage is a legal covenant relationship with which you must be in (in God's eyes) in order to pursue intimate sexual relationship with your spouse. God does not commit spiritual adultry...He does not engage a person in relationship outside the covenant relationship.

So, what is exactly in what you said answers the question "What does this covenant have to do with eternal life?"

"What does this covenant have to do with eternal life?" A: Secondly, all that God has given to us in promises, are all bound up within the New Covenant, and are given only to those who remain abiding in that covenant. Will God heal anyone through you if you are not abiding in the covenant? No, He won't...why? Because the covenant is the legal instrument by which He has accorded the authority in Christ's name, along with the power of the Spirit, by which to perform such miracles.

First, I would like to make a point, that while we have promises bound up within the New covenant, and so were made to the covenant people, this does not prevent God from giving the same grace to non-covenant people.

Second point, that even while the fulfillment of the promises by God to the covenant people, as seemingly dependent on the part of the people, it does not mean that God is prevented in doing the promises if the people fall short of their part in the covenant.

Third point, as it seems to me, the position that the covenant promises will only be fulfilled when the people make good their keeping of the covenant, that raises the matter of the nature of man, that is, man is by nature sinful and weak because of the flesh. This makes the New covenant, no different from the old, in this sense. It has been proven what man is capable or not capable of. He fails.

Finally, I'm sorry if perhaps I'm slow, but I don't see how what you said there answers the question "What does this covenant have to do with eternal life?".     
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Wed Dec 27, 2017 - 03:37:00
SM said:
Quote
No, there will be no one in hell who has eternal life...but there will be plenty of them who had been saved, and at one time did walk in obedience to God and did have eternal life...who no longer have it. Hence the reason they will be in hell.
Michael said:
Quote
Of course there will be no one in hell who has eternal life. For in hell is death, not life. For where death is, life is not, and where life is, death is not.

Those plenty whom you refer to, as had been saved, and at one time did walk in obedience to God and did have eternal life, but somehow, lost it, who are these people? Do scriptures speak of such people?

You have it wrong there...I did not say that they "lost it," I said that they no longer have it. There is a difference. People slip away, fall away, just as the Scriptures tell us over and over again, which you would be wise to listen to rather than the false teachings of men that directly contradict the Word of God.

Please tell us what the difference is there when one have eternal life and then no longer have it, with saying that, he "lost it" to mean he don't have it anymore. Something that you once had and lost it, means you don't have it anymore.   

Here, straight from God Himself...

Quote
II Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

I John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life--to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.

James 5:19-20
My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Matthew 13:18-21
Hear then the parable of the sower: When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.

John 16:1
“I have said all these things to you to keep you from falling away.”

John 15:2
Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

John 15:6
If anyone does not remain abiding in Me, he is rejected, cut off and thrown away like a branch and withers; and they are gathered together, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Matthew 24:10
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.

Galatians 5:4
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

I Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

I Timothy 5:11
But refuse to enroll younger widows, for when their passions draw them away from Christ, they desire to marry

I Timothy 6:10
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.

II Timothy 4:3-4
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

Hebrews 2:1
Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it.

Hebrews 3:12
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to continuously renew themselves to the quality of repentance that they had at the first, seeing as they continually crucify to themselves the Son of God, putting Him to continuous public shame.

Hebrews 13:9
Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited those devoted to them.

Is that enough for you?

On II Peter 2:20-22: What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire." It speaks of the dog and the sow. And do you liken a Christian to such? It only shows that these kind of people were not truly born again, as they remain to be the dog and the sow they are. And if not born again, they don't have eternal life to begin with. 

I can go on show you that the verses you cited does not at all speak of having eternal life and losing it or not having it anymore. But that will be long. So I will not for now do that here. But if you want, just say so, and I'll give it time.


If not, here are examples of those who have fallen away from God after being saved...

Romans 1:21-32
For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore, God gave them up...

Demas
Colossians 4:14
Luke the beloved physician greets you, as does Demas.

Philemon 1:24
and so do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, and Luke, my fellow workers.

II Timothy 4:10
For Demas, in love with this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica. Crescens has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia.


Hymenaeus

II Timothy 2:16-18
But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some.

Romans 1:21-32, while it speaks of people as having no excuse as to not knowing God, and therefore knew God, it speaks not of people who have eternal life and later no longer.

Regarding Demas, what is said at that time that he was in love with this present world. Nothing said that he no longer had eternal life. Besides we don't know the rest of his life after that. That goes as well with the case of Hymenaeus and Philetus. We can't take them as those who had eternal life and had it no longer when they did what they did.


Quote
And please explain what you mean by "had been saved".
You know what it means, Michael. They came to faith in Christ, they repented of their sins, they received baptism into Christ thus being regenerated and indwelt by the Spirit of God...until they ceased walking in obedience to Him. No where is Scripture are we taught that once someone gets saved, they cannot die spiritually and they are bound for heaven with no way on earth that can prevent that from happening. That is false calvinistic theology which flies in the face of the facts of Scripture.

What I'm asking is what you mean by "had been saved" SM. Not that what you say people ought to do to be saved, but what you mean when you say they "had been saved". One is that, the matter is "past", that is, "saved". And having been saved, puts one to be in that state. Now, each of us might say and believe that we have been saved and so have eternal life, only later to find out that, some of us have abandoned the faith or Jesus Christ. It does not mean that such people, before they rejected Jesus Christ, that they had eternal life and then no longer. What it means is that, at the very start they really did not belong to us, to us who had eternal life. For if they did, they would not have rejected Christ.

So, since we don't know the heart, we don't know for sure who the children of God are. We can only assume and hope that all Christians are. And we can only somehow judge or tell by their works, at the outside. And that being, if we see in people, what is expected of the child of God, the fruits of the Spirit, but later reject Christ, we Christians normally think that they lost their salvation and their eternal life. But that is really not the case.

One who was born of God is the child of God. Now we know what and how it is about birth or being born. And scriptures says that he who is born of God believes that Jesus is the Christ. Now, it is a given that such faith is until the end. So, that those who believe in the beginning but not until the end are evidently not born of God, thus, never was a child of God, though he seemed to be in the beginning. 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Wed Dec 27, 2017 - 05:53:07
Unfortunately neither SwordMaster nor Thaddaeus understand salvation; neither knows what is being saved, and from what it is being saved.  What each thinks on this subject probably has a lot more in common than either would like to admit.  They both think that eternal life in heaven is the result of works not faith.  So very, very sad.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Michael2012 on Wed Dec 27, 2017 - 11:37:14
Michael and Thaddaeus you both need to come to this thread and reason:

Problem getting to the link RB. 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: fish153 on Wed Dec 27, 2017 - 18:02:57
Buckingham Palace Guard: "May I help you two gentlemen?"

SM and Thaddeus: "Why yes, please let us in for we have become Princes of England".

Guard: "Excuse me? Come again? Could you repeat that please?"

SM and Thaddeus: "Why yes, we have filled out all the proper paperwork. We both have come to love crumpets and even have our hair
cut like Prince Harry does. We have the accent down perfectly and we both feel like royalty. We are ready to sign the covenant and become
part of the royal family
". (They begin to walk into the palace and the guard grabs them and throws them outside the gate).

SM and Thaddeus: "Hey, what do you think you are doing my good man? We are Princes of England. How dare you treat us like this".

Guard: "Dear Gentlemen, I don't know who has deceived you. But you cannot sign a covenant to become a member of the Royal Family!  You
must be BORN INTO IT.  Do either of you have a birth certificate? No--you don't do you? Therefore you are pretenders to the Crown, Please don't
come back!!"
   (The guard returns to his position).

**I write the above in purely earthly terms. But you see----SM and Thaddeus do not understand the Bible or the New Birth at all. They REALLY believe
that they, in their own efforts, can become children of the King.  But this is impossible.  The only way to become a Child of the King is to be Born-again.  And that
is something which can never be "undone" once it has occured.  Neither of them understand this, and so continue to walk in darkness. Being saved and granted eternal life is a privilege and a gift. it can never be earned or "acquired". You can't "become" a Prince----you must be born as one.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 00:13:28
Buckingham Palace Guard: "May I help you two gentlemen?"

SM and Thaddeus: "Why yes, please let us in for we have become Princes of England".

Guard: "Excuse me? Come again? Could you repeat that please?"

SM and Thaddeus: "Why yes, we have filled out all the proper paperwork. We both have come to love crumpets and even have our hair
cut like Prince Harry does. We have the accent down perfectly and we both feel like royalty. We are ready to sign the covenant and become
part of the royal family
". (They begin to walk into the palace and the guard grabs them and throws them outside the gate).

SM and Thaddeus: "Hey, what do you think you are doing my good man? We are Princes of England. How dare you treat us like this".

Guard: "Dear Gentlemen, I don't know who has deceived you. But you cannot sign a covenant to become a member of the Royal Family!  You
must be BORN INTO IT.  Do either of you have a birth certificate? No--you don't do you? Therefore you are pretenders to the Crown, Please don't
come back!!"
   (The guard returns to his position).

**I write the above in purely earthly terms. But you see----SM and Thaddeus do not understand the Bible or the New Birth at all. They REALLY believe
that they, in their own efforts, can become children of the King.  But this is impossible.  The only way to become a Child of the King is to be Born-again.  And that
is something which can never be "undone" once it has occured.  Neither of them understand this, and so continue to walk in darkness. Being saved and granted eternal life is a privilege and a gift. it can never be earned or "acquired". You can't "become" a Prince----you must be born as one.
Must be a new Bible since the Bible I know and understand never states it as such. The being born part is correct, but NOTHING in the Bible ever states that one so born is finitely saved in this life.  It is never in the past tense but ONLY in the present tense.  When the future is used it is conditional, not finite.

You keep spouting this nonsense, yet you cannot present any Biblical evidence that it could remotely be true. It might  give one as very warm fuzzy feeling to be so guaranteed no matter what transpires in ones life thereafter.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: fish153 on Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 10:14:40
Thaddeus----

How I thank the Lord that I can trust his AMAZING and FAITHFUL PROMISES:

"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.  I give them eternal life, and they shall NEVER PERISH; no one will snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:27,28)

By the way, the word NEVER is in the past, present and future tense Thaddeus.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 10:32:39
Thaddeus----

How I thank the Lord that I can trust his AMAZING and FAITHFUL PROMISES:

"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.  I give them eternal life, and they shall NEVER PERISH; no one will snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:27,28)

By the way, the word NEVER is in the past, present and future tense Thaddeus.
Are you part of the "they"?
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: fish153 on Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 13:07:17
Thaddeus asked---

>>>Are you part of the "they"?<<<

Yes----I most assuredly am. i was "born-again" many years ago. At that point the Lord entered my life and I became a new creation.  And the Lord WANTS
us to have that assurance that we belong to him:

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may KNOW that you HAVE eternal life". (1 John 5:13)

WOW----What a presumptuous thing for John to say---huh?  But what John was conveying is that God wants us to rejoice in the fact that we can have GREAT ASSURANCE
in His promises! I realize in your "religiousness" Thaddeus you would never say you have eternal life----because you believe you must "earn" it---and won't know you have it
until that final day.  But that is actually the epitomy of PRIDE----you are relying on YOURSELF for eternal life----not Jesus!  Praise God I can BELIEVE the promises of God!! I can know that I now HAVE eternal life---because I did not and cannot earn it----it is freely a GIFT OF GOD.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 13:20:00
Michael...I will have to get back to you here, having some family problems at the moment.

Will get back to you as soon as i can.

As for Fish...you make yourself look retarded in the synapses here.

4wd...I understand salvation very well, it has nothing to do with works. But you keep trying to say that I say works is needed, and in that you lie. Salvation and eternal life are two different things, whether you want to take the time to examine that fact or not simply demonstrates your character in whether you are a truth seeker or not.

Scripture is adamant...if you get saved, yet don't walk with God afterwards in practicing righteousness and holiness (if you understand, these are two aspects of obedience to God), then you will not enter heaven. Your problem is that you are allowing your bias to run your brain rather than a full and complete examination of the Scriptures.

Good luck in that...you will need it.

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 13:44:03
Thaddeus asked---

>>>Are you part of the "they"?<<<

Yes----I most assuredly am. i was "born-again" many years ago. At that point the Lord entered my life and I became a new creation.  And the Lord WANTS
us to have that assurance that we belong to him:

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may KNOW that you HAVE eternal life". (1 John 5:13)

WOW----What a presumptuous thing for John to say---huh?  But what John was conveying is that God wants us to rejoice in the fact that we can have GREAT ASSURANCE
in His promises! I realize in your "religiousness" Thaddeus you would never say you have eternal life----because you believe you must "earn" it---and won't know you have it
until that final day.  But that is actually the epitomy of PRIDE----you are relying on YOURSELF for eternal life----not Jesus!  Praise God I can BELIEVE the promises of God!! I can know that I now HAVE eternal life---because I did not and cannot earn it----it is freely a GIFT OF GOD.
You really don't understand,.  It says the above to those that believe.  That is present tense ONLY.  The Bible is full of instances where those that once believed no longer believe.  "Earn" is not the correct word to use anyway, but the fact is if you believe you earned eternal life. You will find no -place in all of scripture that you received eternal life unilaterally. 
If one actually held to your belief, hell would be empty, if all it takes is an instantaneous, one moment of believe to be guaranteed finitely on this earth, eternal life.

The gift of eternal life is available to all men. That was the purpose of God creating man.  Whether you avail yourself of that gift is entirely up to you. Your destination of either heaven or hell is solely and only determined by you.  You will be judged on that decision and the actions of your life.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 15:26:07
That is correct...a gift of the covenant for those who remain abiding in the covenant.

And I have to point out to be clear, eternal life is not a reward or wage for any good work done in obedience to God's commandments, or anything else. It is a gift given to the children of God, not based on anything that it is given, except on the loving kindness of God ~ grace. 

No, that is salvation that you describe above here, not eternal life. If you study all of the Scriptures pertaining to eternal life, you will find that eternal life is mandated to those who walk in obedience to God. Remember that there is a Scriptural difference between salvation and eternal life; if you fail to recognize that difference then you fail to meet principles of interpretation - we must make a delineation where Scripture makes a delineation, otherwise we pervert the Scriptures.

Quote
You are confusing issues. The old covenant did not give eternal life in the same way as the New Covenant does, so the question is really moot.

You said "The old covenant did not give eternal life in the same way as the New Covenant does". Please explain. Thank you.

For starters, eternal life under the old covenant did not make God accessable to the believer in the same way that it does today under the New Covenant. Today, any time you want, you can get on your knees and enter into the very presence of God in prayer and relationship...that was not available to those under the old covenant. Today you have unhindered access to God in His presence, under the old covenant, only the High Priest had that access, and only one time a year on the Day of Atonement...and if he messed up, he dropped dead on the spot once he went passed the veil.

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"What is this covenant for?"  A: It is for qualifying you to be able to have a covenant relationship with God.

That is obvious, for a covenant by itself spells out a relationship between those in covenant. Is that all the new covenant was for?

No, the New Covenant is the legal instrument though which God has given all of His promises, blessings, and giftings. All of God's promises, blessings, and gifts given are all given only in the New Covenant, He has made not one gift or promise that can be yours if you are not in His covenant.

Quote
Two points.

One is more of a confusion. I don't seem to understand the sense of how a covenant is for qualifying you to be able to have a covenant relationship with God.


Perhaps I worded myself incorrectly...the covenant relationship qualifies you to enter into, and engage God, in a personal love relationship, just like in God's eyes, a marriage relationship qualifies you to engage your wife in a sexual relationship. It is the same premise, and, actually, God utilizes the marriage relationship between man and woman many times in both the old and new testaments as the prime example of how we enter into relationship with Him. In fact, leading covenant researchers tell us that the New Covenant is, in fact, a Divine Marriage contract...when we enter it, we are "legally" married to Christ, and as long as we don't break the marriage vow (obedience), we remain espoused to Him.

Quote
Just a point, I think that no two parties enters into covenant without both having some kind of relationship in the first place. Just like before a man and a woman enters into a marriage covenant with each other. What can you say about this point?


That is a hotly debated issue with some theologians today, one that I think is untenable. This is why, God is not interested in pre-covenant relationship, and in fact, when it comes to God, He does NOT have any kind of relationship with people...only to people. The only case where we see in Scripture where God seemed to have a relationship with someone outside of covenant, was Abraham before God made the covenant with Him. However, that was a one time deal where God spoke to him to become His follower and eventually come into covenant with Him.

Scholars and most theologians agree that covenant is the only means, both in the OT and the NT, by which God enters into relationship with anyone, and a honest study of those details (which would take you a while, admittedly) demonstrates that fact. The OT aside, there is no indication at all in the NT that God enters into saving relationship with anyone outside the New Covenant. This can be readily observed in certain "in Christ" passages and texts, because Christ is the living embodiment of the New Covenant (Isa. 42:6; 49:8).

Quote
Again, that is a given, based on what you said what the covenant is for above. But is that all that it is about?


The covenant is for two things mostly: (1) for legal relationship with God, so that you can engege Him in a personal, intimate, love relationship; and (2) to bestow His gifts and promises upon His people.

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So, what is exactly in what you said answers the question "What does this covenant have to do with eternal life?"

Very simple...unless you are abiding in the New Covenant, you don't have eternal life. Eternal life is found only in Christ, and He is the living embodiment of the New Covenant. To say that if you are not in the New Covenant, you don't have eternal life, is the same thing as saying, if you are not in Christ, you don't have eternal life.

Quote
First, I would like to make a point, that while we have promises bound up within the New covenant, and so were made to the covenant people, this does not prevent God from giving the same grace to non-covenant people.

In that estimate you are dead wrong. God does not give saving grace, nor any promises or gifts to those outside the covenant.

Quote
Second point, that even while the fulfillment of the promises by God to the covenant people, as seemingly dependent on the part of the people, it does not mean that God is prevented in doing the promises if the people fall short of their part in the covenant.


Your second assumption is also incorrect. You are talking off the top of your head, apparently. The only way one today can "fall short of their part in the covenant" is to cease to remain abiding in the covenant, and once a person ceases to remain in the covenant, he is no longer in covenant relationship with God. You would do well to study ancient near eastern covenants, because the New Covenant is nothing less, and nothing more, than an ANE covenant. Thus, the same rules apply to the New Covenant as did the other ANE covenants...that is how God was assured that the New Covenant would be completely understood by His people when it was given - because it was not only modelled after ANE covenants, it IS an ANE covenant in every way, shape, and form.

Failure to understand ANE covenants, detracts from your ability to understand the New Covenant, and thus, the Bible in general. Remember, in actuality, it is NOT the "Old Testament" and the "New Testament," but rather, the "Old Covenant" and the "New Covenant."

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Third point, as it seems to me, the position that the covenant promises will only be fulfilled when the people make good their keeping of the covenant, that raises the matter of the nature of man, that is, man is by nature sinful and weak because of the flesh. This makes the New covenant, no different from the old, in this sense. It has been proven what man is capable or not capable of. He fails.


This third point of yours demonstrates a clear lack of understanding the NC Scriptures. In a nutshell, if you walk in obedience to the Law of Christ, which is to place your trust in Christ and love on people when the opportunities to do so arise, then you remain abiding in the New Covenant. The ONLY way that you can fail to do either of those two commandments (I John 3:23-24), is if YOU choose to turn away from them.

Read I John again, maybe even a couple of times. He tells you how to remain abiding in the covenant, he also explains how God deals with sin under the New Covenant. Unintentional sins do not kick one out of the covenant, they are covered by the blood of Christ (I John 1:7)...the only sins that will cause one to fall short, as you put it, are when the person chooses of his own free will to walk away from God by choosing repeatedly not to love on others when they have the ability to do so.

Your point above seems to be based upon a false calvinistic argument.

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Finally, I'm sorry if perhaps I'm slow, but I don't see how what you said there answers the question "What does this covenant have to do with eternal life?".
     

I don't mind slowness as long as you are being willing to look at what you are being presented with. I answered this already above...if that answer still does not do it for you, let me know and I will get more detailed.

Blessings!


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: fish153 on Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 15:47:18
SM---

I don't have to make myself look retarded. I am retarded.

Thaddeus said------

>>> It says the above to those that believe.  That is present tense ONLY., <<<

Actually no. In the third chapter of the same Epistle John says "Beloved, NOW are we the sons of God and we don't know yet
what we SHALL be, but we KNOW that when he appears we SHALL be like him
". (1 John 3:2)

Again, very presumptuous of John, huh?  i mean, what if he doesn't make it?  Why is he using words like NOW, SHALL. and KNOW for?

You see the problem with you and SM Thaddeus is that you kind of know the scriptures-----but you don't BELIEVE what they say.

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 16:17:37
Michael said:
You have it wrong there...I did not say that they "lost it," I said that they no longer have it. There is a difference. People slip away, fall away, just as the Scriptures tell us over and over again, which you would be wise to listen to rather than the false teachings of men that directly contradict the Word of God.

Please tell us what the difference is there when one have eternal life and then no longer have it, with saying that, he "lost it" to mean he don't have it anymore. Something that you once had and lost it, means you don't have it anymore.   

Correct...but how did you lose it? Did you, in fact, "lose" it somewhere, or did you set it down and walk away from it knowing full well that you were? That is the difference. Now, with Christianity it becomes a little more involved, because we have an enemy who is constantly trying to get our eyes off of Christ. If satan can distract you long enough with video games, TV, etc.... to the point that you don't read your Bible anymore, you don't pray anymore, you don't worship God at home anymore, etc... then you have effectively cut yourself off from Christ.

Did you lose it, or set it down through distractions and walk away from it? Christ, and other Scriptures, constantly warn us about distractions and "wandering away" from the truth. If you wander away, then you wander away, you are not still standing beside God walking with Him.

Is that enough for you?

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On II Peter 2:20-22: What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire." It speaks of the dog and the sow. And do you liken a Christian to such? It only shows that these kind of people were not truly born again, as they remain to be the dog and the sow they are. And if not born again, they don't have eternal life to begin with.


Negative, you are only taking part of what is going on there...remember, if you take the text out of context, then you can assign all kinds of nonsense interpretations to it:

2 Peter 2:20-22
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

What Peter says in giving the examples of the dog and sow, is that the dog will go back and devour its vomit (previous meal) rather than eating what is placed before him, and the sow, after HAVING BEEN WASHED CLEAN will go back to roll around in the mud. If you can't see the obvious correlations here in what Peter is saying, then you are allowing a calvinist mind set to get between you and the Word.

You are the dog...you ate of the world before now, and now you have good food yet you prefer to return to eating what you used to eat, which is now vomit. You are the sow...you used to wallow in the mud of the world, but then you got saved and washed from those things, yet you prefer to return to wallowing in the same mud of the world. It is very obvious what Peter is saying.

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I can go on show you that the verses you cited does not at all speak of having eternal life and losing it or not having it anymore. But that will be long. So I will not for now do that here. But if you want, just say so, and I'll give it time.

Actually, you can do no such thing, and if you did, you would be violating a number of principles of biblcal interpretation, and I dare say, that most, if not all, of your attempts would be solidly based upon false calvinistic assumptions and teachings. But, I would like you to address each one in separate posts so that it isn't one looooooonnnnnngggggg post.

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Romans 1:21-32, while it speaks of people as having no excuse as to not knowing God, and therefore knew God, it speaks not of people who have eternal life and later no longer.

Negative, the context is clear. Paul says, "although they KNEW God"...now no one knows God unless they have been in relationship with Him, and no one is in relationship with God unless they have been saved. You are allowing your bias to color what the black and white Word says right there in front of you. Practically all of the second half of Romans chapter 1 is dealing with people who were at one time saved and had chosen to return to the world, just like Demas did, which you talk about next...

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Regarding Demas, what is said at that time that he was in love with this present world. Nothing said that he no longer had eternal life. Besides we don't know the rest of his life after that. That goes as well with the case of Hymenaeus and Philetus. We can't take them as those who had eternal life and had it no longer when they did what they did.

I am not addressing what they may have done after Paul wrote what he did...I am not saying that they didn't go to heaven when they died, what I point out is that at the time of the writing, Paul declares that they were no longer walking with God. That is the main point. If you are not walking with God, then you do not have eternal life...and to think that such a thing is possible is to completely misunderstand a vast majority of what the Bible teaches.

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You know what it means, Michael. They came to faith in Christ, they repented of their sins, they received baptism into Christ thus being regenerated and indwelt by the Spirit of God...until they ceased walking in obedience to Him. No where is Scripture are we taught that once someone gets saved, they cannot die spiritually and they are bound for heaven with no way on earth that can prevent that from happening. That is false calvinistic theology which flies in the face of the facts of Scripture.

What I'm asking is what you mean by "had been saved" SM. Not that what you say people ought to do to be saved, but what you mean when you say they "had been saved".

I just told you above. The came to Christ in faith, repented of their sins, received baptism into Christ, thus being regenerated and given eternal life. They were saved from their sins so that they could enter into a relationship with God. They had been saved. If your definition of being saved is different from that which I just repeated to you a second time, then please tell us what your version of salvation is...according to the Scriptures.

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One is that, the matter is "past", that is, "saved". And having been saved, puts one to be in that state.

You misunderstand the nature of salvation. It is not a "state." Eternal life is a state of being, but salvation is not. Salvation is an act of God, not a state.

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Now, each of us might say and believe that we have been saved and so have eternal life, only later to find out that, some of us have abandoned the faith or Jesus Christ. It does not mean that such people, before they rejected Jesus Christ, that they had eternal life and then no longer. What it means is that, at the very start they really did not belong to us, to us who had eternal life. For if they did, they would not have rejected Christ.


Negative, you are again relying upon false calvinistic nonsense. What does Jesus say? If you believe in Him, you have eternal life...He said it over and over again, and the apostles repeated what He taught. If Tom believes in Jesus, then he has eternal life once he comes to God according to "the way of God" (Acts 18:24-26). Just because you may have it right concerning Christ, does NOT mean that you understand "the way of God" accurately and are saved; and Apollos is a prime example of that clear fact.

If someone believes in Christ, repents from his former lifestyle of sin, and enters into Christ through water baptism, then he is saved without a doubt. If he is saved, then according to scripture he has eternal life. However, just as John the Baptist states in John 3:36, if you don't walk in obedience to Him after you get saved, then you will not have eternal life for very long. You really need to empty your cup as far as what you have been taught in the past, because it is keeping you from seeing clearly what the Scriptures actually state.

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So, since we don't know the heart, we don't know for sure who the children of God are.


Negative...you show that you don't know the Scriptures as well as you think you do...

1 John 2:2-5
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:

1 John 2:10 + 1:7
Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. But if we walk in the light, as God is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 3:10
By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

There are more, but that should suffice.

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We can only assume and hope that all Christians are. And we can only somehow judge or tell by their works, at the outside.


Luke 13:6-7
And he told this parable: "A man (God) had a fig tree (you) planted in His vineyard, and He came seeking fruit on it and found none. And He said to the vinedresser, 'Look, for three years now I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and I find none. Cut it down. Why should it use up the ground?'

John 15:1-2
"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He cuts off, and every branch that does bear fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

You do err, not knowing the Scriptures. The person who gets saved and walks in eternal life will bear good fruit, and just because a person does not bear good fruit, that does not mean that he was not really ever saved. A man can get saved, and because of false teaching, never be told that he needs to walk in obedience to God and His Word...and so he doesn't. That man, though he received salvation, will not bear good fruit...and God will cut him off from Christ. John 15:1-2 clearly states that those who are "in Christ" are the branches...that means the branches are saved and have eternal life. It also states clearly that if those who are saved and have eternal life, who are in Christ, do not bear fruit...God Himself will cut them off from Christ.

The only way you can try to dissway what is clearly stated there in black and white, is to appeal to nonsense calvinistic false teachings which do not align with either Scripture, nor common sense and logic, nor wisdom from God.

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And that being, if we see in people, what is expected of the child of God, the fruits of the Spirit, but later reject Christ, we Christians normally think that they lost their salvation and their eternal life. But that is really not the case.


What did Jesus say? "You will know them by their fruits." You are now contradicting the Word of God for your bias.

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One who was born of God is the child of God.


That is only part of the truth, which is missed through inaccurate translation of the Scriptures. One remains a child of God as long as he walks in obedience to God. If you stop walking in obedience to Him, then you are no longer one of His children.

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Now we know what and how it is about birth or being born. And scriptures says that he who is born of God believes that Jesus is the Christ. Now, it is a given that such faith is until the end. So, that those who believe in the beginning but not until the end are evidently not born of God, thus, never was a child of God, though he seemed to be in the beginning.


More nonsense calvinistic surmisings. That is like say, because you die physically, we know that you were actually never born physically. It is nonsense, just like the reasoning calvinists use in such cases. They appeal to carnal reasoning rather than just sticking with what the Scriptures clearly teach. You cannot fall away from Christ if you were never in Him in the first place, Michael. Scripture is repleat in saying that you can fall away - if you deny that Scriptural fact, then your theology is in direct contradiction to the Word of God, and you are found to be teaching false doctrine.

I do hope you will listen to Scripture rather than the carnal reasonings of men, and recant your present theological position...for your own sake as well as those who might be listening to you.




Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 16:21:14
Buckingham Palace Guard: "May I help you two gentlemen?"

SM and Thaddeus: "Why yes, please let us in for we have become Princes of England".

Guard: "Excuse me? Come again? Could you repeat that please?"

SM and Thaddeus: "Why yes, we have filled out all the proper paperwork. We both have come to love crumpets and even have our hair cut like Prince Harry does. We have the accent down perfectly and we both feel like royalty. We are ready to sign the covenant and become part of the royal family". (They begin to walk into the palace and the guard grabs them and throws them outside the gate).

SM and Thaddeus: "Hey, what do you think you are doing my good man? We are Princes of England. How dare you treat us like this".

Guard: "Dear Gentlemen, I don't know who has deceived you. But you cannot sign a covenant to become a member of the Royal Family!  You must be BORN INTO IT.  Do either of you have a birth certificate? No--you don't do you? Therefore you are pretenders to the Crown, Please don't come back!!"   (The guard returns to his position).

**I write the above in purely earthly terms. But you see----SM and Thaddeus do not understand the Bible or the New Birth at all. They REALLY believe that they, in their own efforts, can become children of the King.  But this is impossible.  The only way to become a Child of the King is to be Born-again.  And that is something which can never be "undone" once it has occured.  Neither of them understand this, and so continue to walk in darkness. Being saved and granted eternal life is a privilege and a gift. it can never be earned or "acquired". You can't "become" a Prince----you must be born as one.
Nice post.  Very illustrative.

But now then, what if one who is already a prince of the kingdom, forsakes his lineage to be adopted to peasants?  Is he still a royal?
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: fish153 on Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 16:28:45
He would still be a Prince.  In fact, the royal guards would most likely proclaim if they saw him "Look!  The Prince is living with Peasants!  Perhaps he will wake
up and his Father the King will receive him back. Perhaps he'll then put a ring on his finger and have a feast! In fact, the King so loves this Prince He wouid most
likely meet him halfway should he return
He has simply forgotten who he is!"
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 16:31:46
SM---

I don't have to make myself look retarded. I am retarded.

...in your Scriptural understanding, yes...and very.

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You see the problem with you SM is that you kind of know the scriptures-----but you don't BELIEVE what they say.

I have two chiropractors that I go to...the primary is a young guy in his early 30's, and the secondary is a much older guy in his 60's.

Now, I go to the primary guy because he, despite is obvious youth, has applied himself to his craft and is far more knowledgable than the second, older guy...but the primary lives in another town that I cannot always get to. So when I am hurting real bad, I go to the older guy - who, despite being older and a chiropractor for many years longer than the younger guy - just so that I can get as much pain taken care of as possible while I wait for my appointment with the younger guy.

The younger guy not only knows chiropractic system, but in applying himself to his craft, he also learned about myofacial trigger points, as well as developing extended examination actions and movements for patients to do in order to find their issue points...whereas the older guy, who is even a chiropractic instructor at a chiropractic school of medicine, has no knowledge of.

What's my point? fish, you are the old guy who knows only a few drops in the bucket of the totality of Scriptural things...I am the young guy who has actually applied myself to my craft, and has learned far more than you. You like to keep saying stupid things in order to make yourself look like you know what you are talking about, when in reality, what you "think" yoiu know isn't really worth bragging about at all. Here is what Jesus said about people like you...

Luke 8:18
Take care then how you listen, for to the one who listens and applies, more will be given, and from the one who does not listen or apply, even what he thinks that he has will be taken away."

I have no doubt that you have been reading your Bible for years longer than I have...(more the pity)...but that in no way, shape, or form is any kind of indication that you have a better grasp of Scripture than I do.

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 16:36:37
Buckingham Palace Guard: "May I help you two gentlemen?"

SM and Thaddeus: "Why yes, please let us in for we have become Princes of England".

Guard: "Excuse me? Come again? Could you repeat that please?"

SM and Thaddeus: "Why yes, we have filled out all the proper paperwork. We both have come to love crumpets and even have our hair
cut like Prince Harry does. We have the accent down perfectly and we both feel like royalty. We are ready to sign the covenant and become
part of the royal family
". (They begin to walk into the palace and the guard grabs them and throws them outside the gate).

SM and Thaddeus: "Hey, what do you think you are doing my good man? We are Princes of England. How dare you treat us like this".

Guard: "Dear Gentlemen, I don't know who has deceived you. But you cannot sign a covenant to become a member of the Royal Family!  You
must be BORN INTO IT.  Do either of you have a birth certificate? No--you don't do you? Therefore you are pretenders to the Crown, Please don't
come back!!"
   (The guard returns to his position).

**I write the above in purely earthly terms. But you see----SM and Thaddeus do not understand the Bible or the New Birth at all. They REALLY believe
that they, in their own efforts, can become children of the King.  But this is impossible.  The only way to become a Child of the King is to be Born-again.  And that
is something which can never be "undone" once it has occured.  Neither of them understand this, and so continue to walk in darkness. Being saved and granted eternal life is a privilege and a gift. it can never be earned or "acquired". You can't "become" a Prince----you must be born as one.

Actually Fish, your story above is highly moronic. You still try to equate physical birth with spiritual birth, and in doing so you pervert the Scriptures.

No one is born into God's kingdom outside of covenant...care to guess why? Because no one on earth is a natural child of God, we all become children of God through adoption...and the New Covenant is the legal instrument of that adoption.

So, all you do is demonstrate your ignorance of many things...which has quite a hilarious turn - because you argue adoption on other threads when it suits your fasle teachings, and then here deny the direct impact of adoption in your little story. Nice...keep it up...you show us just how far your intelligence level in understanding Scripture goes.

Pretty shallow, so far...


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: fish153 on Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 17:20:51
SM said to Michael2012-----

>>>That is only part of the truth, which is missed through inaccurate translation of the Scriptures. One remains a child of God as long as he walks in obedience to God. If you stop walking in obedience to Him, then you are no longer one of His children.<<<<

Michael-----praise God this is absolutely false.  Is there a reason that the GOOD SHEPHERD carries a ROD and a STAFF?  I guess SM's version of the Good Shepherd carries no Rod or Staff--He simply lets you run away and says "because you no longer follow me you are no longer one of my sheep".  No----the true GOOD SHEPHERD carries a STAFF to guide us with-----but should we stray He has a ROD to bring us back to Himself. And David says this "rod" actually "comforts" him. Why? Because it is a symbol of the great love of God for His Children.

SM's theology is completely warped.  And what he doesn't realize is how greatly he is disrespecting and dishonoring God.  He is labeling God as a person who only loves when He is loved.  That is absolutely and totally untrue.  Jesus went to the cross to show how deep God's love is for us!!   Oh praise God that salvation and eternal life are not dependent on ME.  I would easily be damned---as would be SM or Thaddeus-----none of us is righteous enough to go to Heaven without the righteousness of God.

Michael--I know you already know this---but keep yourself in the Grace of God. Don't be deceived by this crooked teaching.  Jesus is the GOOD SHEPHERD not the "Good as long as you are Good Shepherd".  Of course we do not want to disobey God---but thank His holy name. should we stray His love for us is far greater than ours for Him.  Thank you Lord!
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: fish153 on Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 18:19:12
SM---

The point of my story was simple. None of us can "choose" to be a born-again Christian.  John 1:13 teaches this clearly-----that when we are
born-again we are "Born OF God"--not according our own will or human decision.  A child of God is REGENERATED (Born-Again). This shows
us that not just anyone can enter a church and say "I am a Child of God" because they happen to follow a certain religion or creed.

Hell will be full of "religious" people.  My point is you can't just call yourself a Prince----you have to BE A PRINCE.  As Matthew 7:21
so clearly demonstrates.  Jesus says "I NEVER knew you..."  They called themselves Christians----they even did miracles in His name----but they
were NEVER His children.

You can call the post moronic if you wish----but I think it makes the point quite well  actually---  I did not DECIDE to be born physically----neither do I
DECIDE to be born spiritually.  It is a supernatural birth---of the Holy Spirit----and it is purely a GIFT.  It is not dependent upon what I DO--but
is based upon what Jesus has DONE.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 18:24:52
SM---

The point of my story was simple. None of us can "choose" to be a born-again Christian.  John 1:13 teaches this clearly-----that when we are
born-again we are "Born OF God"--not according our own will or human decision.  A child of God is REGENERATED (Born-Again). This shows
us that not just anyone can enter a church and say "I am a Child of God" because they happen to follow a certain religion or creed.

Hell will be full of "religious" people.  My point is you can't just call yourself a Prince----you have to BE A PRINCE.  As Matthew 7:21
so clearly demonstrates.  Jesus says "I NEVER knew you..."  They called themselves Christians----they even did miracles in His name----but they
were NEVER His children.

You can call the post moronic if you wish----but I think it makes the point quite well  actually---  I did not DECIDE to be born physically----neither do I
DECIDE to be born spiritually.  It is a supernatural birth---of the Holy Spirit----and it is purely a GIFT.  It is not dependent upon what I DO--but
is based upon what Jesus has DONE.
That is so Calvin and it is so wrong.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: fish153 on Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 18:53:13
4WD--

>>>That is so Calvin and it is so wrong.<<<  No, that is not Calvin----that is John 1:13----read it carefully.  Did you choose your physical birth 4WD?  How did
it come about? You had no choice in the matter.  Do you seriously believe that anyone can walk into a church and say "I now choose to be born-again" and make
that happen?  Why do you suppose there are so many baptized "religious" people who call themselves Christians without ever showing any real fruit of being one?

i have never read a book by Calvin to be honest with you. What I believe is in the Word of God----and I have seen it in my own life.  One day I could care less who God
was----HE stepped into my path and the next day my whole life was changed.  I did not decide to make a change that day----the Lord came into my life and changed me.
If that is Calvinistic so be it.  Praise God He came into my life.  It was not my doing---it was HIS.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 21:55:09
4WD--

>>>That is so Calvin and it is so wrong.<<<  No, that is not Calvin----that is John 1:13----read it carefully.  Did you choose your physical birth 4WD?  How did
it come about? You had no choice in the matter.  Do you seriously believe that anyone can walk into a church and say "I now choose to be born-again" and make
that happen?  Why do you suppose there are so many baptized "religious" people who call themselves Christians without ever showing any real fruit of being one?

i have never read a book by Calvin to be honest with you. What I believe is in the Word of God----and I have seen it in my own life.  One day I could care less who God
was----HE stepped into my path and the next day my whole life was changed.  I did not decide to make a change that day----the Lord came into my life and changed me.
If that is Calvinistic so be it.  Praise God He came into my life.  It was not my doing---it was HIS.
So God is a respecter of persons. God is not just, He is capricious. 
God comes into the life of every single person. That is the specific work of the Holy Spirit in this world. However, you say  that God then only chooses some to believe. So those in hell had nothing to do with getting there, God just chose not to love them.
Scripture says Christ died for the ungodly.
So, why are you so impertinent in  thinking that your efforts could possibly effect anything trying to explain anything to anyone? Your theology is not consistent with reality.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 22:08:05
SM said to Michael2012-----

>>>That is only part of the truth, which is missed through inaccurate translation of the Scriptures. One remains a child of God as long as he walks in obedience to God. If you stop walking in obedience to Him, then you are no longer one of His children.<<<<

Michael-----praise God this is absolutely false.


Michael, praise God that Fish's version of the gospel is false, because if it was true, practically no one would be going to heaven.

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Is there a reason that the GOOD SHEPHERD carries a ROD and a STAFF?  I guess SM's version of the Good Shepherd carries no Rod or Staff--He simply lets you run away and says "because you no longer follow me you are no longer one of my sheep".  No----the true GOOD SHEPHERD carries a STAFF to guide us with-----but should we stray He has a ROD to bring us back to Himself. And David says this "rod" actually "comforts" him. Why? Because it is a symbol of the great love of God for His Children.

Sorry fish, but no matter how much God may beat the wandering sheep with His rod, that in no way, shape, or form means that such a wandering sheep WILL come back to Him. You speak another gospel, one that is completely and utterly foreign to the Scriptures. You directly contradict many Biblical texts with your carnal reasoning.

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SM's theology is completely warped.
 

Yes, it is completely warped when we lay it side by side with yours...because mine is according to Scriptural teaching and yours is according to the false teachings of a carnal lawyer, not a theologian, and according to the facts of his life, not even a saved Christian.

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And what he doesn't realize is how greatly he is disrespecting and dishonoring God.  He is labeling God as a person who only loves when He is loved.

More moronic carnal reasoning, fish, on your part. God loves all people, saved or otherwise, but God's love does NOT save you. If that was true, then all people would be saved and on their way to heaven. No, God only takes those who love Him because that is the point of all this. According to Scripture, you not only have to be called (which we all are), but you must be part of the chosen (those in Christ), and even then, you have to be faithful to Him...

Revelation 17:14
They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful."

It matters little if you are called and chosen if you are not faithful...of course, your warped theology discounts faithfulness to God, not understanding that faithfulness entails obedience to God, and obedience to God is how we love Him. Remember these?...

Deuteronomy 7:9
Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love Him and keep His commandments, to a thousand generations,

Nehemiah 1:5
And I said, “O LORD God of heaven, the great and awesome God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love Him and keep His commandments,”

Daniel 9:4
I prayed to the LORD My God and made confession, saying, “O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love Him and keep His commandments,”

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love Him.

James 2:5
Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which He has promised to those who love Him?

I John 5:3
For this is how we love God, we obey His commandments, and His commandments are not burdensome.

Nothing has changed in this respect from the old to the new, fish...its a shame that your Biblically feeble mind can't see that fact.


 
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That is absolutely and totally untrue.  Jesus went to the cross to show how deep God's love is for us!!
   

No, He went to the cross in order to procure the atonement for our sins so that we can enter into God's presence and engage Him in personal relationship. Only those who follow up on that will be those who go to heaven.

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Oh praise God that salvation and eternal life are not dependent on ME.  I would easily be damned---as would be SM or Thaddeus-----none of us is righteous enough to go to Heaven without the righteousness of God.

More calvinistic c**p! If you can't keep faith in God and love on people when the opportunities present themselves to you to do so, then you were never saved in the first place.

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Michael--I know you already know this---but keep yourself in the Grace of God.


 rofl rofl rofl     And how do we keep ourselves in the grace of God, fish, according to the Scriptures!!! You can't even get the simplest things down correctly!

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Don't be deceived by this crooked teaching.  Jesus is the GOOD SHEPHERD not the "Good as long as you are Good Shepherd".  Of course we do not want to disobey God---but thank His holy name. should we stray His love for us is far greater than ours for Him.  Thank you Lord!

More nonsense calvinistic teaching...

Matthew 10:33
but whoever denies Me before men, I also will deny before My Father who is in heaven.

2 Timothy 2:12
if we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He also will deny us;

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.



This describes people in your persuasion, fish...denying by what you do, and what you do not do. You are like those in Jeremiah's day crying out, "Oh the temple, the temple, the temple of God! We are His children because we have the temple!" Only with those in your group, you cry out "Oh grace, grace, grace!!! We are children of God because of grace!!!"

God says to them as He says to you also, "You believe in false words..."

You can deny Christ with your mouth, as well as by your actions or inaction (disobedience). Either way, you can deny Him, and if you are not striving to walk in obedience to Him, then you are lost...generally speaking.


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 22:20:40
SM---

The point of my story was simple. None of us can "choose" to be a born-again Christian.
 

As usual, fish, you are so wrong as to be an embarassment to the Christian community. I chose to be born again, and when I followed the Scriptural precepts in order to become born again, I became born again. Your theology is so twisted that you cannot even support it with Scripture, rather you cherry pick passages that you "think" support your twistings...just like calvin did.

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John 1:13 teaches this clearly-----that when we are born-again we are "Born OF God"--not according our own will or human decision.  A child of God is REGENERATED (Born-Again). This shows us that not just anyone can enter a church and say "I am a Child of God" because they happen to follow a certain religion or creed.

Once again you are an embarassment; lets look at the whole context there...

John 1:12-13
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

We choose to receive Him, we choose to believe in Him, and then He gives us the authority (right) to BECOME a child of God...He does NOT MAKE us a child of God. You read into the text what you want to, not what it actually states...as usual for you.

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Hell will be full of "religious" people.
 

Yes, it will, and many of those religious people make the same arguments that you do...

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My point is you can't just call yourself a Prince----you have to BE A PRINCE.  As Matthew 7:21 so clearly demonstrates.  Jesus says "I NEVER knew you..."  They called themselves Christians----they even did miracles in His name----but they were NEVER His children.

This time you also embarass yourself. First, it isn't Mat. 7:21, it is 7:23 that you allude to. Second, those in verse 22 were saved and in covenant with God, because it is the covenant that gives us the power and authority to be able to perform miracles in Christ's name. They were children of God, but they lost it somewhere because they spent too much time with distractions like Martha, rather than spending intimate time with Jesus sitting at His feet like Mary.


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You can call the post moronic if you wish----but I think it makes the point quite well  actually---  I did not DECIDE to be born physically----neither do I DECIDE to be born spiritually.
 

There you go again...using physical parallels that have nothing in common in nature. You only demonstrate to the readers how ignorant you are of actual spiritual principles and teachings. I Cor. 2:13-14...

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It is a supernatural birth---of the Holy Spirit----and it is purely a GIFT.  It is not dependent upon what I DO--but is based upon what Jesus has DONE.

See...more nonsense. It is part what Christ has done and part what you do...because if you don't choose to believe, then you are out of there. If you don't choose to repent, then you are out of there. Keep using nonsense physical examples for spiritual ones that you don't understand, you make showing where you come from extremely easy.


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: fish153 on Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 22:47:04
SM----

Please read the passage in Matthew 7 once again. Jesus does not say I ONCE knew you. He says I NEVER knew you. They were never REGENERATED. They did not lose salvation. They were never saved in the first place. You can put laughing emoticons after every sentence for all I care SM. You ignore scripture when it doesn't suit your theology--- just as you did once again below.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: 4WD on Fri Dec 29, 2017 - 05:22:03
SM----

You ignore scripture when it doesn't suit your theology--- just as you did once again below.
As, of course, do you, fish.  It is so clearly stated that salvation, including justification, regeneration and sanctification, is conditional.  And remaining saved, just like being saved, is also conditional.

That God declares that salvation is conditional goes all the way back to Abraham about whom we read, “Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness” (Gen 15:6)..  Clearly the order here is Abraham believed and God credited that to Abraham as righteousness; that is God declared Abraham righteous.  That is Justification.  And of course there verse after verse after verse in the NT that affirms the conditional aspect of becoming saved and staying saved.  Among the earliest statements of the conditionality is in John 1:11-12; "He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- "  There can be no argument that believing is a requirement for becoming a child of God.  Then of course there is John 3:15-18, 36; 6:47;20:31.  And those are but a few of the obvious statements showing being saved is conditional upon believing.  And believing is not the only condition.


Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: fish153 on Fri Dec 29, 2017 - 10:43:06
4WD said----

>>>As, of course, do you, fish.  It is so clearly stated that salvation, including justification, regeneration and sanctification, is conditional.  And remaining saved, just like being saved, is also conditional.<<<

It's interesting that neither you nor SM address what I said about Matthew 7.  So I will state it once again--Jesus said to these people "I NEVER knew you..."  he does not state "I ONCE knew you..."

Now, in Galatians 4:9 it describes a believer:  "But now that you know God--or rather are known by God--how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?" (Gal. 4:9)   Note:  a believer is KNOWN by God.  Yet Matthew 7 says that Jesus NEVER KNEW these people.

Now---if either of you wants to address this without imposing your own theology upon it that would be great.  I have shown clearly from Scripture that the people in Matthew 7 were not SAVED and then LOST.  "Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (Matt. 7:23)  Will you continue with dishonest doctrine----or accept what the Bible teaches?  These people were clearly never saved to begin with.
 
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Fri Dec 29, 2017 - 11:12:19
4WD said----

>>>As, of course, do you, fish.  It is so clearly stated that salvation, including justification, regeneration and sanctification, is conditional.  And remaining saved, just like being saved, is also conditional.<<<

It's interesting that neither you nor SM address what I said about Matthew 7.  So I will state it once again--Jesus said to these people "I NEVER knew you..."  he does not state "I ONCE knew you..."

Now, in Galatians 4:9 it describes a believer:  "But now that you know God--or rather are known by God--how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?" (Gal. 4:9)   Note:  a believer is KNOWN by God.  Yet Matthew 7 says that Jesus NEVER KNEW these people.

Now---if either of you wants to address this without imposing your own theology upon it that would be great.  I have shown clearly from Scripture that the people in Matthew 7 were not SAVED and then LOST.  "Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (Matt. 7:23)  Will you continue with dishonest doctrine----or accept what the Bible teaches?  These people were clearly never saved to begin with.

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Now---if either of you wants to address this without imposing your own theology upon it that would be great.  I have shown clearly from Scripture that the people in Matthew 7 were not SAVED and then LOST.  "Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (Matt. 7:23)  Will you continue with dishonest doctrine----or accept what the Bible teaches?  These people were clearly never saved to begin with.
how come you imposed your theology upon it?

First, there is no believer, as long as he is alive in this world, is saved.  Very simply, he is being saved. 

Now, the context of the chapter is about doing good works or doing the will of the Father. One can call himself a Christian, can be baptised into the Church, but that does not make one saved. Those He never knew were those that did things in the Name of Jesus, but lived a life of lawlessness or, did not do the will of the Father.

It never is a saved and lost.  It is one being faithful by doing rather than one claiming and not living according to His will
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: fish153 on Fri Dec 29, 2017 - 12:49:58
Thaddeus----

Thanks for giving us all an explanation of YOUR THEOLOGY that no one is ever saved in this life (which is completely refuted by many scriptures).  You are once again
completely ignoring the fact that the Bible says "God KNOWS those that are His".  He NEVER knew these people because they were NEVER his.  You can
jump through all the hoops you want with your own theology----but it is completely unbiblical.  We can KNOW we are saved while we are still alive (1 John 5:13)
and rejoice in it.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Fri Dec 29, 2017 - 16:54:44
Thaddeus----

Thanks for giving us all an explanation of YOUR THEOLOGY that no one is ever saved in this life (which is completely refuted by many scriptures).
Biblical theology.  Cite one text, just one that states that a believer is saved, past tense, in this life.   I don't know of a single one.

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You are once again completely ignoring the fact that the Bible says "God KNOWS those that are His".  He NEVER knew these people because they were NEVER his.  You can jump through all the hoops you want with your own theology----but it is completely unbiblical.  We can KNOW we are saved while we are still alive (1 John 5:13)and rejoice in it.
It NEVER says you are saved. You have assurance that you will be saved IF ONE BELIEVES.  That is called assurance, not a guarantee.  If you reject Him tomorrow and fall into a life of lawlessness, you will not inherit eternal life. Very simple concept and the NT spends most of the text explaining this, so much so that only two Books in the NT do not address it.

Yet you will never find a single text that says one is actually finitely guaranteed eternal life for his entire future based on a past affirmation.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: fish153 on Fri Dec 29, 2017 - 17:30:34
Thaddueus said----

>>>Biblical theology.  Cite one text, just one that states that a believer is saved, past tense, in this life.   I don't know of a single one.<<<

You must not read your Bible very much. One immediately came to mind for me:

"But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he SAVED us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He SAVED us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, HAVING BEEN justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:4-7)

The whole statement is in PAST TENSE---and we PRESENTLY have the hope of eternal life.  This isn't a "I hope I have eternal life one day"---- it is referring to JOY that we have-----and assurance that we will live forever as Jesus has GIVEN US ETERNAL LIFE.   But salvation is definitely mentioned in the PAST TENSE---AN ACCOMPLISHED FACT.

Your theology is contrary to the Bible Thaddeus. There is no way you can have the JOY OF THE LORD. You have no assurance.  How sad. You should believe God's promises.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Fri Dec 29, 2017 - 18:15:03
fish153,

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"But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he SAVED us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He SAVED us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, HAVING BEEN justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:4-7)
which corresponds with Rom 5:6-8. He saved every single human being from death and sin.  That is NOT referencing believers.

The second part is the believers who  are being saved because the salvation comes at the end. He is saving you through rebirth and renewal (indwelling) of  the Holy Spirit.  All believers shall be saved at the end, NOT during their lifetime.  The whole second phrase is about the hope of the end.  You and others in working so hard to deny what Christ actually accomplished, when and how,  try to squeeze it into a place that it does not belong.

Again you impose false suppositions and cannot reconcile other texts as well. 

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Your theology is contrary to the Bible Thaddeus. There is no way you can have the JOY OF THE LORD. You have no assurance.  How sad. You should believe God's promises.
it is contrary to your interpretation.  I have assurance, but based on your theology you will never be in heaven or hell.  Your theology keeps you permanently condemned to death, dust to dust.  All you will become a mound of sand,
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: fish153 on Fri Dec 29, 2017 - 18:33:55
Thaddeus said---

>>>That is NOT referencing believers.<<<   You're kidding right?  Come on Thaddeus--back up just one verse. By the way, Paul is addressing Titus and also the "elect" :

"At one time WE TOO were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. WE LIVED in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved US, not because of righteous things WE had done, but because of his mercy. He saved US through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit "(Titus 3:3-5)

You are being willingly and willfully ignorant Thaddeus. To say this is NOT referencing believers is astonishing. You are literally jumping through hoops to cling to YOUR OWN THEOLOGY and that is not only said---it is frightening. May God have mercy upon you.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: SwordMaster on Fri Dec 29, 2017 - 19:08:22
SM----

Please read the passage in Matthew 7 once again. Jesus does not say I ONCE knew you. He says I NEVER knew you. They were never REGENERATED.


Fish, you are operating under the false assumption that regeneration automatically means that Christ comes to know a person, and in that assumption you are dead wrong. He comes to know us the very same way that we come to know Him...through spending time with Him in personal relationship. Your theology is so flawed that you can't even get that right.

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They did not lose salvation. They were never saved in the first place.


Again...even though you ignore what doesn't meet your bias, they were saved and in covenant with God, just as I showed you before...because if they were not saved and in covenant with God they could not have the power and authority in Christ's name to perform miracles. Jesus said they did, so they did, unless you are now advocating that Jesus lied or didn't know what He was talking about.

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You ignore scripture when it doesn't suit your theology--- just as you did once again below.

Once again, the black pot trying to call the red kettle black. I don't ignore any Scripture, fish, but you demonstrate on a daily basis that you do, and multiple times a day, even multiple times in a single posting.

Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Jaime on Fri Dec 29, 2017 - 20:03:10
I’m torn. i disagree with all of you. May God have mercy on your souls!
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Texas Conservative on Fri Dec 29, 2017 - 20:26:13
I’m torn. i disagree with all of you. May God have mercy on your souls!

If you agree with me, you will agree with God's Word.
Title: Re: Ephesians 2:8
Post by: Thaddaeus on Fri Dec 29, 2017 - 22:25:05
fish153,

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Thaddeus said---

>>>That is NOT referencing believers.<<<   You're kidding right?  Come on Thaddeus--back up just one verse. By the way, Paul is addressing Titus and also the "elect" :
is it amazing how disconnected you are from scripture.  It is past tense. The ONLY reference it could possibly be is about what Christ accomplished. Yes, he is speaking to Titus, who happens to be a human being, part of humanity.
The second part is about the elect, but it is an ongoing event in their lives and the fact, if one remains faithful, they will be saved, meaning inherit eternal life.



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"At one time WE TOO were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. WE LIVED in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved US, not because of righteous things WE had done, but because of his mercy. He saved US through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit "(Titus 3:3-5)

You are being willingly and willfully ignorant Thaddeus. To say this is NOT referencing believers is astonishing. You are literally jumping through hoops to cling to YOUR OWN THEOLOGY and that is not only said---it is frightening. May God have mercy upon you.
quite the contrary which I showed you above.  You actually have two salvations taking place within one paragraph with your statement.  You have believers already saved, but then through baptism and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit will again be saved.  What kind of theology is that? You need to be saved twice?

The more you attempt to interpret scripture you are showing just how afa