Author Topic: Ephesians 2:8  (Read 52692 times)

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Offline Jaime

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #35 on: Fri Oct 20, 2017 - 10:25:47 »
Well, regeneration, anyway.  The beginning of salvation.

Yes, the justification part. The sanctification part is life long.

Offline beloved57

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #36 on: Fri Oct 20, 2017 - 11:06:29 »
4wd

Quote
The remnant that Paul is speaking of in Romans 11 is the remnant of national Israel (vv. 1-2)

True enough, however the way of Salvation by Grace is the same for jew and gentile.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #37 on: Fri Oct 20, 2017 - 11:15:48 »
4wd

True enough, however the way of Salvation by Grace is the same for jew and gentile.
Yes, but we are not ever called the remnant.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #37 on: Fri Oct 20, 2017 - 11:15:48 »

Offline beloved57

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #38 on: Fri Oct 20, 2017 - 11:35:32 »
4wd

Quote
Some mistakenly conclude that Ephesians 2:8 says faith is a gift: “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.” This is disproved, though, by the rules of Greek grammar. The Greek word for “faith” (pistis) is feminine in gender; the pronoun referring to the gift (“that,” touto) is neuter. If it were referring back to faith, it too would be feminine in form. (We should note there is no word in the Greek corresponding to the pronoun “it.” That is why the two words "it is" in most translations are italicized)

Salvation/ being saved itself  is A Gift of God, and Faith accompanies Salvation, for we believe through Grace Acts 18:27

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

The word through here is the prep dia and means:


A.the ground or reason by which something is or is not done

i.by reason of


ii.on account of


iii.because of for this reason


iv.therefore


v.on this account


Believing is attributed to Grace Its a Spiritual Blessing !

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #38 on: Fri Oct 20, 2017 - 11:35:32 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline beloved57

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #39 on: Fri Oct 20, 2017 - 11:46:22 »
4wd

Quote
Yes, but we are not ever called the remnant.

A False statement not found in scripture. Gentiles are called a remnant for one Acts 15:14,17

Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

That residue of men refers to the gentiles and the word residue means :

 left down (behind), i.e remaining (plural the rest):—residue.

Thats the same thing remnant means.

And secondly, even if  this passage wasnt in scripture, jews and gentiles are saved by grace the same way. Unless you believe race and ethnicity plays a part in Salvation by Grace ! So either way you are in error !

You are constantly making off the wall statements without scripture support !

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #39 on: Fri Oct 20, 2017 - 11:46:22 »



Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #40 on: Fri Oct 20, 2017 - 12:49:38 »
Beloved58
Quote
Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.


That is confirmed in many ways: it was the PEN OF THE SCRIBES who made the Jews special.   Abraham was a GENS or one of the NATIONS to be a BLESSING to other nations.  Genesis 49 curses the Levites and commanded that people not enter into covrernant with them or attend their "synagogues."  It was to Judah and Shiloh or REST that the godly were to look too.

Amos 9:7 Are ye not as children of the Ethiopians unto me, O children of Israel? saith the Lord. Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? and the Philistines from Caphtor, and the Syrians from Kir?
Amos 9:8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the Lord.
Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

God breathed (Spirit) into the prophets and that is the same Spirit OF Christ who breathed and Jesus articulated what God was inSPIRITING Him to say.  Later, Paul in Galatians 3 affirms many statements in the Old Testament which FOR THE SPIRITUAL SECTOR was the Covenant that God made with Abraham. He leapfrogs the Monarchy which God turned over to worship the starry host which in these last days is defined by the Greek Apollo, Apollon or Abaddon.

The Great Commission was to ALL NATIONS because Jesus didn't recognize JEWS who despised their EDUCATING all of the OTHER GENS and turned to enslaving and murdering anyone who stood in their way which wound no be Jesus and Stephen who shows that the  Civil-Military-Clergy that God HAD NOT commanded their temple.



The people is Latin populus  The people, LAOS opp. to the Senate, opposite the MULTITUDES



"Messianic Jews" are still Jews who claimed that Jesus was Messiah for the Jews and the New Covenant is the Old Covernant to the Jews but "gentiles" might tag along. They are a DETERMINING FACTOR in universities and silly churches who don't grasp the FABLES OF THE JEWS or Judaizing.

Matt. 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mark 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
Gal. 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Rev. 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

1484.  ethnos, eth´-nos; probably from 1486; a race (as of the same habit), i.e. a tribe; specially, a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually, by implication, pagan): — Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

The HOUSE of ISRAEL is Domos or LAOS "Excluding priests or Levites" whom Jacob Cursed and God abandoned to worship the Astrial gods, serpents and fire.  They were an old Egyptian and Indian Infant Burning Priesthood.  AS PROPHESIED most dominant clergy see themselves as PRIESTS (mediating the Word, salvation and burial) and Levites who made NOISE (CCM) and never tuneful or metrical music.   



« Last Edit: Fri Oct 20, 2017 - 13:09:34 by Kenneth Sublett »

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #40 on: Fri Oct 20, 2017 - 12:49:38 »

Offline NorrinRadd

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #41 on: Sat Oct 21, 2017 - 20:22:22 »
...
You Are Saved

Saved isn't part of the verb here, though it appears that way in English.  In Greek, that word refers to the ongoing state of being resulting from God's actions - in this case, that they are ALIVE.  This word in every other chapter/verse in the Bible is translated as healed, rather than saved, ...

I'm skimming through this thread.  I may get back with more.  For the nonce, suffice to say that this assertion is not even close to being true.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #42 on: Sat Oct 21, 2017 - 20:29:17 »
I'm skimming through this thread.  I may get back with more.  For the nonce, suffice to say that this assertion is not even close to being true.
Covered in reply #34.

Offline beloved57

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #43 on: Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 03:13:22 »
It must be given to believe on Christ Phil 1:29

For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake

The word given here charizomai from the word which we get the word grace. Faith is out of Grace, the whole of Salvation by Grace through Faith is the Gift of God. Faith is not mans part or of ourselves , Faith is also Gods part for its the fruit of God the Holy Spirit Gal 5:22

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #43 on: Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 03:13:22 »

Offline l.a.providence

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #44 on: Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 04:52:25 »
If it is by grace through faith, then you have to go through the faith process to get to it.  Sounds works oriented I guess but really, if grace is at the end of a tunnel then I have to actually go through the tunnel to get to it.  Faith is our part. I don't think the cross automatically saved the world.  It was a means to get the world saved. We actually have to do something to get to the grace and that something is to believe.  Now the million dollar question is, "is my body just going to nurture a spiritual birth of belief, something superspritual that we can't understand but somehow we wake up believing one day," or does belief mean that I have to perform an action. Some say baptism is that act that shows our faith.  I've seen both sides of the coin.

Offline beloved57

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #45 on: Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 07:07:36 »
l.a. providence

Quote
If it is by grace through faith, then you have to go through the faith process to get to it.  Sounds works oriented I guess but really, if grace is at the end of a tunnel then I have to actually go through the tunnel to get to it.  Faith is our part. I don't think the cross automatically saved the world.  It was a means to get the world saved. We actually have to do something to get to the grace and that something is to believe.  Now the million dollar question is, "is my body just going to nurture a spiritual birth of belief, something superspritual that we can't understand but somehow we wake up believing one day," or does belief mean that I have to perform an action. Some say baptism is that act that shows our faith.  I've seen both sides of the coin.

I never seen any of this in scripture before. Do you have scripture for any of this ?

Offline beloved57

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #46 on: Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 07:10:19 »
l.a providence

Quote
Faith is our part.

By this statement do you mean to say that Faith is a mans part in getting saved ? If thats what you mean can you provide a scripture that says that please ?

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #47 on: Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 07:19:22 »
l.a providence

By this statement do you mean to say that Faith is a mans part in getting saved ? If thats what you mean can you provide a scripture that says that please ?
Yeah, Ephesians 2:8.  "by grace through faith".  It is man's faith; certainly not God's.

Offline beloved57

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #48 on: Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 07:23:45 »
4wd

Quote
Yeah, Ephesians 2:8.  "by grace through faith".  It is man's faith; certainly not God's.

Eph 2:8 says nothing about Faith being mans ! In fact the context in which Faith is found in that verse argues that Faith along with Salvation is not of ourselves but the Grace of God !

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #49 on: Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 07:43:19 »
4wd

Eph 2:8 says nothing about Faith being mans ! In fact the context in which Faith is found in that verse argues that Faith along with Salvation is not of ourselves but the Grace of God !
It says nothing about Grace being God's either.  The "that" in the Greek [touto] is neuter gender so that it cannot reference back to either grace or faith since both are feminine gender.

Offline beloved57

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #50 on: Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 08:35:48 »
4wd

Quote
It says nothing about Grace being God's either.  The "that" in the Greek [touto] is neuter gender so that it cannot reference back to either grace or faith since both are feminine gender.

So you are adding to Gods word because you have failed t show where it says in Eph 2:8 Faith is mans part ! Now Faith is of Grace both Faith and Grace are feminine nouns. The Christian believes because of Grace Acts 18:27

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Its evil and misleading to ascribe to man what should be ascribed to God and or His Grace !

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #51 on: Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 08:41:58 »
4wd

So you are adding to Gods word because you have failed t show where it says in Eph 2:8 Faith is mans part ! Now Faith is of Grace both Faith and Grace are feminine nouns. The Christian believes because of Grace Acts 18:27

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Its evil and misleading to ascribe to man what should be ascribed to God and or His Grace !
I am not adding anything to God's word.  The Christian believes because God has given him a free will to think and to choose and because the totality of God's word presents the powerful evidence and witness to the truth of the Gospel.  And that Gospel is the "power of God for salvation to everyone who believes."

What is evil and misleading is the entire false theology presented by TULIP.  It is at the very outset grotesque.  And it is distortions such as you are presenting here and elsewhere that perpetuates that evil and misleading theology.
« Last Edit: Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 08:47:50 by 4WD »

Offline beloved57

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #52 on: Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 08:45:12 »
4wd

Quote
What is evil and misleading is the entire false theology presented by TULIP.  It is at the very outset grotesque.  And it is distortions such as you are presenting here and elsewhere that perpetuates that evil and misleading theology.

You just ignored more scripture truth !

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #53 on: Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 08:49:33 »
4wd

You just ignored more scripture truth !
Reformed Theology ignores all scripture truth as it relates to soteriology and much else.

Offline beloved57

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #54 on: Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 09:23:02 »
4wd

Quote
Reformed Theology ignores all scripture truth as it relates to soteriology and much else.

Continuing in your ignoring of scripture truth ! Post 50

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #55 on: Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 09:29:17 »
4wd

Continuing in your ignoring of scripture truth ! Post 50
TULIP is the epitome of the ignoring of scripture truth.

Offline beloved57

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #56 on: Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 09:39:49 »
4wd

Quote
TULIP is the epitome of the ignoring of scripture truth.

Continuing in your ignoring of scripture truth ! Post 50

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #57 on: Tue Oct 24, 2017 - 12:51:21 »
It must be given to believe on Christ Phil 1:29

For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake

The word given here charizomai from the word which we get the word grace. Faith is out of Grace, the whole of Salvation by Grace through Faith is the Gift of God. Faith is not mans part or of ourselves , Faith is also Gods part for its the fruit of God the Holy Spirit Gal 5:22

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,


 ::thumbup::

Offline grams

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #58 on: Tue Oct 24, 2017 - 14:08:48 »

[b ]   
8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
 9
Not of works, lest any man should boast
 
      [/b]

This   means  we  are saved  through  faith    no   works  or any thing  , but  Belief in

GOD  and  JESUS............................  !

We  understand  what   JESUS   did for us at the Cross...............  How much pain  JESUS  suffered for

Our sins..................  HE  has no  sins......................  But  we  sure do. !!!
« Last Edit: Tue Oct 24, 2017 - 14:11:01 by grams »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #59 on: Tue Oct 24, 2017 - 15:23:25 »
FAITH COMES BY. HEARING THE WORD: THE GIFT IS SALVATION TO THOSE WHO ARE BAPTIZED. We simple simon who learned to read before the Teachers decided that reading, riting and rithmatic and spellin is no longer offered because THEY need an ignorant serfdom.

For by grace are ye SAVED
          through faith;
          and that [salvation] is not of yourselves:
it is the GIFT of God: Eph 2:8

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ
          for the remission of sins,
          and ye shall receive
          the GIFT of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38

Mark 16:16 He that believeth [complies] AND is baptized shall be SAVED;
          but he that believeth not shall be damned.

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin,
        but ye have OBEYED from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Rom 6:17

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. Rom 6:18

Rom. 6:23 For the WAGES of sin is death; but the GIFT of God is ETERNAL LIFE through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If faith does not come by HEARING the WORD which is PREACHED as the ONLY POWER of God TO SALVATION then you say that the Holy Spirit is a liar.

It is true that the DUST people or ABORIGINES or OF THE WORLD or Tartarus ARE NOT GIVEN to believe: that is why Jesus spoke in parables to the Jewish Clergy as a RACE OF VIPERS and not the few faithful ISRAELITES (spiritual).

Those OF the World or Kosmos or the ECUMENICAL are the kingdom of the Devil as OPPOSED to the Kingdom of Christ.  The sons of the Devil can easily be detected: THEY SPEAK ON THEIR OWN and refute the Word, Logos or Regulative Principle. Those who SPEAK the WORD are marked because the WORLD hates them.
« Last Edit: Tue Oct 24, 2017 - 17:40:48 by Kenneth Sublett »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #60 on: Tue Oct 24, 2017 - 16:22:01 »
Absolutely the gift mentioned this verse IS salvation.
« Last Edit: Tue Oct 24, 2017 - 17:01:59 by Jaime »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #61 on: Wed Oct 25, 2017 - 01:57:14 »
If faith does not come by HEARING the WORD which is PREACHED as the ONLY POWER of God TO SALVATION then you say that the Holy Spirit is a liar.

Faith sure comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. But that does not mean that it comes not from God. Now the word of God is written in scriptures. If we look in scriptures, we see that God spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, but has in these last days spoken by His Son.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

Even while God's words spoken to man through His Son in the last days, that is, beginning from some 2000+ years ago up to the present, are written in these scriptures, do all hear the voice of God, the words of God spoken then through His Son? These same scriptures tells us that not all to whom the words of God is spoken to, are able to hear what God says.

John 8:47

New International Version
Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

King James Bible
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Clearly, the scriptures above tells us that there are people said to be of God or who belongs to God, and there are people said to be not of God or people who does not belong to God. And whether one hears God's words or not, depends on this matter. If one belongs to God then he will hear God's words, if not, then he won't hear. And those who hears are obviously them who obtained faith. And this is by God, not by the man.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #62 on: Wed Oct 25, 2017 - 06:20:45 »
Faith sure comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. But that does not mean that it comes not from God. Now the word of God is written in scriptures. If we look in scriptures, we see that God spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, but has in these last days spoken by His Son.
The word of God is the source for the evidence on which we base our faith in God.  It provides the information and the data upon which we are convinced of the truth of the Gospel message of our creator God and His Son, our Lord and Savior.  But it is we who decide, based upon that evidence, that we believe the evidence and therefore believe in God.  God provides us with all that is necessary to believe, it is we who decided to believe.



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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #63 on: Wed Oct 25, 2017 - 06:45:21 »
The word of God is the source for the evidence on which we base our faith in God.
4WD~I have a question for you and anyone else who desires to give their input and it is this: Knowing that most that have lived in this world have never had the same chance as you and I have had to hear the word of God, and knowing this, my question would be~is God fair? In order to believe as you believe and others, then I would ask myself IS THIS FAIR? Even among those that have heard over and over, most do not have the same ability to comprehend and to process information that you believe is necessary to come to faith in Christ....is this fair? Some sit under gifted ministers who are able to open up the truths of the scriptures, some have never had a minister capable of doing the same...is this fair?

Bottom line, would not all have to be on the same level playing field in this game of life, in order for it to be fair for everyone to have the same chance for eternal life since, after all, it is left up to the individual
« Last Edit: Wed Oct 25, 2017 - 06:50:35 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #64 on: Wed Oct 25, 2017 - 06:50:32 »
Even while God's words spoken to man through His Son in the last days, that is, beginning from some 2000+ years ago up to the present, are written in these scriptures, do all hear the voice of God, the words of God spoken then through His Son? These same scriptures tells us that not all to whom the words of God is spoken to, are able to hear what God says.

John 8:47

New International Version
Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

King James Bible
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
You give us the perfect example of what happens when only one or two verses are isolated and presented outside the context in which it was written.

Michael,  Jesus said in John 8:45: "But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me." So therefore taken out of context we can conclude that all who do not believe Jesus is because He tells the truth.  But that is not what Jesus is saying.

Jesus, in the entire chapter 8 of John, is speaking to and responding to the Scribes and Pharisees (v.3), whom He already had declared to be sons of the devil.  In verse 43 and 44 he declares that they being sons of the devil have already decided to do the will of the devil.  It is for that reason that they do not hear.  It is their will, it is their decision.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #65 on: Wed Oct 25, 2017 - 11:00:41 »
4WD~I have a question for you and anyone else who desires to give their input and it is this: Knowing that most that have lived in this world have never had the same chance as you and I have had to hear the word of God, and knowing this, my question would be~is God fair? In order to believe as you believe and others, then I would ask myself IS THIS FAIR? Even among those that have heard over and over, most do not have the same ability to comprehend and to process information that you believe is necessary to come to faith in Christ....is this fair? Some sit under gifted ministers who are able to open up the truths of the scriptures, some have never had a minister capable of doing the same...is this fair?

Bottom line, would not all have to be on the same level playing field in this game of life, in order for it to be fair for everyone to have the same chance for eternal life since, after all, it is left up to the individual?
I do not see where equality of opportunity - aka fairness - is preached in my Bible.  That seems to be an American virtue.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #66 on: Wed Oct 25, 2017 - 13:27:41 »
4WD~I have a question for you and anyone else who desires to give their input and it is this: Knowing that most that have lived in this world have never had the same chance as you and I have had to hear the word of God, and knowing this, my question would be~is God fair? In order to believe as you believe and others, then I would ask myself IS THIS FAIR? Even among those that have heard over and over, most do not have the same ability to comprehend and to process information that you believe is necessary to come to faith in Christ....is this fair? Some sit under gifted ministers who are able to open up the truths of the scriptures, some have never had a minister capable of doing the same...is this fair?

Bottom line, would not all have to be on the same level playing field in this game of life, in order for it to be fair for everyone to have the same chance for eternal life since, after all, it is left up to the individual?

Wasn't the Great Commission our instructions for "leveling the playing field?"

Mathew 28:19 - 20
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


Spreading the Gospel of Christ in this manner was kind of God's Multi-Level Marketing Plan. Make disciples by teaching and baptizing them, then they make disciples, then their disciples  also make disciples and so on. Sorry for the Amway analogy! 
 ::peeking::
« Last Edit: Wed Oct 25, 2017 - 13:45:26 by Jaime »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #67 on: Wed Oct 25, 2017 - 13:44:01 »
4WD~I have a question for you and anyone else who desires to give their input and it is this: Knowing that most that have lived in this world have never had the same chance as you and I have had to hear the word of God, and knowing this, my question would be~is God fair? In order to believe as you believe and others, then I would ask myself IS THIS FAIR? Even among those that have heard over and over, most do not have the same ability to comprehend and to process information that you believe is necessary to come to faith in Christ....is this fair? Some sit under gifted ministers who are able to open up the truths of the scriptures, some have never had a minister capable of doing the same...is this fair?

Bottom line, would not all have to be on the same level playing field in this game of life, in order for it to be fair for everyone to have the same chance for eternal life since, after all, it is left up to the individual?

There is an inherent consideration to be given the meaning of faith or believing in God.  We are told that it comes from hearing.  We are not told explicitly how God plans to deal with those who have not had the opportunity to hear.  We are told about those who "disbelieve".  In the word "disbelieve" it is understood that they have heard and rejected.  Now it is a different consideration if there are those who hear and as you state, "so not have the same ability to comprehend and to process information".  I am quite sure that God will deal justly [and fairly] with both those who have never heard and those unable to grasp the significance of what they are being told.

I understand that runs against what you believe, but what you believe runs counter to so much that God says about Himself.  The very idea that He would condemn individuals under the concept of unconditional election is abhorrent, and speaks volumes against your interpretation of the Scriptures you think support it.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #68 on: Wed Oct 25, 2017 - 13:50:32 »
I do not see where equality of opportunity - aka fairness - is preached in my Bible.  That seems to be an American virtue.
I think any reasonable meaning we have for fairness must come from God, the same as our view of Justice, Grace, Kindness, Goodness, Loving or any of the other virtues or attributes we see in God's relations with his creation.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #69 on: Wed Oct 25, 2017 - 13:54:07 »
And it's not fair for us as Christians to ignore the Great Commission which IS the ultimate field leveling, equal opportunity and loving and compassionate effort in history, aside from Christ's work on the cross.
« Last Edit: Wed Oct 25, 2017 - 15:46:42 by Jaime »

 

     
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