Author Topic: Ephesians 2:8  (Read 52690 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #70 on: Wed Oct 25, 2017 - 21:25:24 »
Michael2012 on Today at 01:57:14
Quote
Faith sure comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. But that does not mean that it comes not from God. Now the word of God is written in scriptures. If we look in scriptures, we see that God spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, but has in these last days spoken by His Son.
The word of God is the source for the evidence on which we base our faith in God.  It provides the information and the data upon which we are convinced of the truth of the Gospel message of our creator God and His Son, our Lord and Savior.  But it is we who decide, based upon that evidence, that we believe the evidence and therefore believe in God.  God provides us with all that is necessary to believe, it is we who decided to believe.

The word of God is anything and all that which proceeded from God. And what these are, are what is written in scriptures. As such, what we have in scriptures is God's words. And as words are spoken, God's words comes to one by hearing God's voice. When I write a letter to my mom and mom reads it, the words written in the letter are like my spoken words to mom, as hearing my voice. In that sense, the written words served to be the voice of the one to whom the words came from. So, the scriptures is the voice of God. So that is what we have in scriptures. And what is in scriptures is truth, is spirit, is life, more than evidence, information, or data.

On the matter of you being the one deciding to believe, it does not remove the truth that only those who belong to God hears God's voice, His words, and those who belong not to God does not. 

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #71 on: Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 00:01:10 »
Michael2012 on Today at 01:57:14
Quote
Even while God's words spoken to man through His Son in the last days, that is, beginning from some 2000+ years ago up to the present, are written in these scriptures, do all hear the voice of God, the words of God spoken then through His Son? These same scriptures tells us that not all to whom the words of God is spoken to, are able to hear what God says.

John 8:47

New International Version
Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

King James Bible
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
You give us the perfect example of what happens when only one or two verses are isolated and presented outside the context in which it was written.

Michael,  Jesus said in John 8:45: "But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me." So therefore taken out of context we can conclude that all who do not believe Jesus is because He tells the truth.  But that is not what Jesus is saying.

Jesus, in the entire chapter 8 of John, is speaking to and responding to the Scribes and Pharisees (v.3), whom He already had declared to be sons of the devil.  In verse 43 and 44 he declares that they being sons of the devil have already decided to do the will of the devil. It is for that reason that they do not hear.  It is their will, it is their decision.


Yes, they are sons of the devil (v. 44). The "they" refers to the Jews, the descendants of Abraham, that He was conversing with. Jesus went on to tell them about their father, the devil. That the devil was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. He said that the devil speaks a lie, for he is a liar and the father of it. In verse 43, Jesus said, "Why do you not understand My speech? There is in this a strong point that, it is as if to them, to their ears, Jesus speaks a tongue/language they don't understand. And with this put in the context, what they speak, as do their father, the devil, which are lies, and what Jesus speaks which are truth, seems to be like two different tongues. 

And so Jesus said to them "But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me". And why they do not believe Him, is that what He speaks is truth, which to them is like a foreign tongue so they are not able to listen to His word and do not understand. And this is because they are of the devil or that they are not of God.

Now, another point, and to be more exact, what Jesus said in verse 47 is not about "believing", but about "hearing".

John 8:47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

These, Jesus have spoken to the Jews, the Scribes and Pharisees with them. But then, the Gentile sinners are no different from them, who equally are of the devil.

Who then can hear God's words? Jesus tells us that they are those who are of God, those who belongs to God. Now, we know that those who do not belong to God or are not of God are sinners. So we can notice that Jesus in verse 46 asked them the question, "Which of you convicts Me of sin?". Not only making the point that He is without sin and so is of God, but His statement strongly implies a truth, a truth yet to be revealed in the near future relative to that point in time, regarding those who are of God, those who can hear God's words. 

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #72 on: Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 00:17:13 »
2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

4WD, what do you understand of "obtained" here? This question goes as well to those who have the same or similar view of faith as 4WD.

Strong's Concordance
lagchanó: to obtain by lot
Original Word: λαγχάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: lagchanó
Phonetic Spelling: (lang-khan'-o)
Short Definition: I obtain by lot, cast lots
Definition: (a) I obtain (receive) by lot, my lot (turn) is, (b) I draw lots.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2975: λαγχάνω

λαγχάνω: 2 aorist ἔλαχον;
1. to obtain by lot (from Homer down): with the genitive of the thing, Luke 1:9 (cf. Buttmann, 269 (231); Winers Grammar, 319 (299)); to receive by divine allotment, obtain: τί, Acts 1:17; 2 Peter 1:1; on the construction of this verb with the genitive and accusative of the thing, see Matthiae, § 328; Winers Grammar, 200 (188); (cf. Buttmann, § 132, 8).

2. to cast lots, determine by lot (Isocrates, p. 144 b.; Diodorus 4, 63 (cf. ps.-Demosthenes in middle, p. 510, 26)): περί τίνος, John 19:24. 

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #72 on: Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 00:17:13 »

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #73 on: Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 00:46:31 »
And it's not fair for us as Christians to ignore the Great Commission which IS the ultimate field leveling, equal opportunity and loving and compassionate effort in history, aside from Christ's work on the cross.

With regards the "Great Commission" you are talking about, I don't think that Jesus commanded His disciples "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.", to be viewed us something for "leveling the playing field". To be sure, whatever God does is fair.

Consider this:

John 10:14-16
14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

John 11:49-52
49 And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, 50 nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish.” 51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 04:05:35 by Michael2012 »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #73 on: Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 00:46:31 »

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 9637
  • Manna: 415
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #74 on: Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 04:43:04 »
Wasn't the Great Commission our instructions for "leveling the playing field?"
Brother, MOST of the history of the world as of today was before Matthew 28~so, how about those poor people before the cross? Even in the OT, God by-passed all nations, except one small little nation called the Hebrew people and left all nations to themselves without instructions and means of knowing how to please the God of heaven who created all things. Even after the cross, the the white horse left Jerusalem (See Revelation 6:2) and went away from India, China, which makes up most of this world's population and went toward those nations and cities that constitute our NT epistles!  India and China TO THIS DAY still show evidence of God's sovereign decisions to by-pass them, do they not. I agree with Wycliffes_Shillelagh that said:
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh
I do not see where equality of opportunity - aka fairness - is preached in my Bible.  That seems to be an American virtue.
That seems to be an American virtue was no doubt added in a jesting manner, for every man is out for themselves apart from God's grace being lived out in their lives and even then it's a battle with our sinful flesh.

No, my friend God is not interesting on having a level playing field, for NO MAN deserves it to be so, for we ALL had that in Adam and lost this level playing field.
Quote from: 4WD
We are not told explicitly how God plans to deal with those who have not had the opportunity to hear. 
Sir, again and again, you refuse to accept that IN ADAM God gave every posterity that should come from Adam the absolutely BEST opportunity to obey and follow his commandments! ONE little simple commandment was given to Adam, yet he sinned and we IN HIM. Every man since Adam has a wicked nature to deal with IN HIS ATTEMPT to please God, and Paul clearly tells us that IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to please God in our flesh received from father Adam! Romans 8:7, etc.
Quote from: 4WD
We are not told explicitly how God plans to deal with those who have not had the opportunity to hear.
Oh sir, we are told in no uncertain voice form heaven~all are UNDER condemnation and shall die in their sins, IF their sins are not legally atoned for by a PERFECT PAYMENT unto the Law Giver. That's where the covenant of GRACE come into the story of redemption found in the holy scriptures.  God laid help upon ONE that was mighty to save his people given to him by God, the rest God was NOT under any obligation to provide a redeemer for~that he willed to provide one for some was an act of free grace, moved only by his own will and nothing outside of him. If think that's not fair, then you need to listen to Paul's rebuke of people that feel as you do.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 9:14-21~What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Before God put anything into action by creation, he KNEW PERFECTLY that he alone was immutable and that he alone could not be tempted with sin, yet he moved forward creating all things, for he also knew that MORE good could be done by doing so.
Quote from: 4WD
I am quite sure that God will deal justly [and fairly] with both those who have never heard and those unable to grasp the significance of what they are being told.
God's Justice demands that he punishes sin and the sinner, he will NOT just overlook, sin~it is impossible for Him to do so, and still be righteous, and a hater of iniquity. If he does not lay a person's sins on Christ, then they MUST be punished and perish from his presence.
Quote from: 4WD
I understand that runs against what you believe, but what you believe runs counter to so much that God says about Himself.  The very idea that He would condemn individuals under the concept of unconditional election
First, it matters little what either of us believes, but what does God's word reveal to us concerning TRUTH. Oh, for sure what you believe runs counter to what I see and understand from God's word, let us be straight concerning that~for the burden is on BOTH of us to make sure that we are in agreement WITH GOD, not so much with each other. Truth is always in the minority, so it moves me very little to see who agrees with me and who does not, I'm ONLY concern with my understanding being in line with God's testimony of what truth is.
Quote from: 4WD
The very idea that He would condemn individuals under the concept of unconditional election
First, unconditional election is not a concept, but a bible truth. Here is where you truly have trouble with God, not with me.... sir~ unconditional election removes man OUT of the equation of having any part in his salvation from sin and condemnation. Romans 11:5,6 is quite clear with many other scriptures that could be added.

Secondly, God DOES not condemn men UNDER the concept of unconditional election, they are condemned because of SIN......unconditional election SECURES their salvation from the wages of sin.

I'm going to deal with Ephesians 2:8 and FAITH in my next post.



« Last Edit: Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 04:49:32 by RB »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #74 on: Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 04:43:04 »



Offline l.a.providence

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1055
  • Manna: 33
  • Gender: Male
  • Everybody needs someone to believe in them!
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #75 on: Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 04:53:24 »
Through faith- you wondered about scripture to back this up:

I'm using common sense theology....not at all saying posts here have no common sense.  I understand that it's all God and God initiated everything from the beginning. However, If I have to be baptized to be saved, then that is something I am going through (something I have to do to access this grace).  Why go into the world and preach if we did not play the most vital role, to actually "do something."

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #75 on: Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 04:53:24 »

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 38484
  • Manna: 797
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #76 on: Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 06:12:14 »
Red, don’t you figure God made provision for the righteous by faith before the cross as he did with Abraham? Jesus’s sacrifice was sufficient for the righteous before the cross as well as after.

Ginger Rella

  • Guest
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #77 on: Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 07:17:19 »
Yes we all agree that we are saved by grace through faith no doubt but just what does that mean? The answer to that is what we need to bring into unity for there are as many different answers to that as there are posters on this forum.

So in your opinion just what does that statement mean? How would go go about explaining that to an unbeliever? Does it have more than one meaning? Can we just believe what ever we want or does it have substance with it and a true meaning that all should be in unity on?

Yogi

I will try to give a simple answer to what is faith.

In this case faith being how I feel and believe in God, Jesus, and also the Holy Spirit. For me it is belief in the Holy Trinity.

Incorporated into that belief is the additional belief that Jesus was sent by Father God, to be born of a virgin, to become a mortal man and live among the people with the directive, as it were, to become a living sacrifice for our sins.

Jesus is called the Lamb of God, and rightfully so as out heavenly Father actually provided a sacrifice for us. (Unlike old testament times when thay did animal sacrifices.)

Just think about that for a moment.

God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son.....  For us. For you, for me.... and we all know it goes on to say... that whoever believes......

So first and foremost important is you must believe this totally and unwavering.

As someone I once knew used to say.

I know because my know, knows.

Meaning total comprehension of what was done and no shadow of a doubt.

This is what I call faith.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12621
  • Manna: 320
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #78 on: Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 07:31:04 »
Sir, again and again, you refuse to accept that IN ADAM God gave every posterity that should come from Adam the absolutely BEST opportunity to obey and follow his commandments! ONE little simple commandment was given to Adam, yet he sinned and we IN HIM.
The "we IN HIM" is your fatal error.  That might have been the case were it not for Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. But Jesus did become a man and died for the whole world, i.e., all men.  In doing so, the "one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."(Rom 5:18)
Quote
IF their sins are not legally atoned for by a PERFECT PAYMENT unto the Law Giver. That's where the covenant of GRACE come into the story of redemption found in the holy scriptures.
Yes but God says that Jesus paid the price for "not only our sins, but for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2) But that is another fatal flaw in the TULIP fiasco.  Paul also tells us the same thing.  He said in 2 Corinthians 5:17-19, Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Clearly there is no limit to what Christ has done.  Who will accept what He as done is another story altogether.

And once again you bring out Romans 9:14-21 erroneously thinking that he is speaking there of the salvation of the individual when he is actually speaking about using national Israel to bring salvation to the world.  That would be obvious if you would just read it sans TULIP.
Quote
God's Justice demands that he punishes sin and the sinner, he will NOT just overlook, sin~it is impossible for Him to do so, and still be righteous, and a hater of iniquity. If he does not lay a person's sins on Christ, then they MUST be punished and perish from his presence. 
But of course we shall all stand at the judgment seat of Christ to answer for the things we have done, whether good or bad.  Paul said in Romans 14, "Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
Quote
First, it matters little what either of us believes, but what does God's word reveal to us concerning TRUTH. Oh, for sure what you believe runs counter to what I see and understand from God's word, let us be straight concerning that~for the burden is on BOTH of us to make sure that we are in agreement WITH GOD, not so much with each other.
I certainly agree with that.
Quote
First, unconditional election is not a concept, but a bible truth. Here is where you truly have trouble with God, not with me.... sir~ unconditional election removes man OUT of the equation of having any part in his salvation from sin and condemnation. Romans 11:5,6 is quite clear with many other scriptures that could be added.
There is nothing in either of those two verses that says or even hints at anything like unconditional election. And by the way the remnant that Paul speaks of there is the remnant of national Israel under the Old Covenant who were saved (Rom 11:1-2).
Quote
Secondly, God DOES not condemn men UNDER the concept of unconditional election, they are condemned because of SIN......unconditional election SECURES their salvation from the wages of sin.
If you believe in unconditional election then you must also believe in unconditional reprobation.  You cannot have one without the other.  Fortunately neither is true.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #78 on: Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 07:31:04 »

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 9637
  • Manna: 415
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #79 on: Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 07:44:11 »
Red, don’t you figure God made provision for the righteous by faith before the cross as he did with Abraham?
Brother, I'm not sure what you are asking~but let me say this for now~Abraham, you and I are born again in the exact same manner. But, more than that, just as Abraham's faith only proved that he had been regenerated by the Spirit, so does our faith do the same. Now, this would truly be a great thread to start for then Genesis' account of Abraham could be understood along with Romans four and Galatians three, which I'm convinced few understand its full impact of what Paul is teaching.

Abraham's faith was NOT the means of him being made righteous, but his faith proved that he WAS righteous, made so by the grace of God THROUGH Jesus' obedience and righteousness!
Quote from: Jaime
Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for the righteous before the cross as well as after.
Jesus' faith and obedience were more than a SUFFICIENT sacrifice for every elect member of his body (OT and NT believers, from Abel unto the last sheep born in this world) to free us from God's condemnation..... I fully agree with.

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 9637
  • Manna: 415
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #80 on: Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 07:50:37 »
The "we IN HIM" is your fatal error. 
I'm leaving to go out of town, but should be back later on today.

I'm looking forward discussing this more in depth, also to give my understanding of Ephesians 2:8,9 which most will reject because they have never heard of it before, I'm pretty sure of that.  Later...............RB

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12621
  • Manna: 320
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #81 on: Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 08:15:16 »
Rb,
Once again, you separate regeneration and salvation.  You propose that man is born again by the Spirit of God, but has not yet at that point been saved.  While regeneration is not the same as salvation, the two occur simultaneously.  Under the New Covenant, salvation which consists of Justification and Regeneration [and initial sanctification] all occur at one instant in time.  If one has been regenerated then he is saved; if one has been saved then he is regenerated.  Same is true for justification.

And you continue to reject the very statement of Ephesians 2:8 that "by grace you have been saved through faith" We have been saved through faith.  That is fundamental. 

Heb 11:8  By faith Abraham obeyed.....

Heb 11:9  By faith he went to live....

Heb 11:13  These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.


If God saved Abraham and I think we would all agree that God did save him, then it was By Faith that he was saved.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2071
  • Manna: 39
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)cheives (M)ore
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #82 on: Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 08:53:28 »
And, the PROOF goes on and on: No one is said to have sins remitted who HAS NOT OBEYED in Baptism.  No one is said to have been added to the Church by Christ who has not been baptized.  No one is said to have been accepted as a disciple until after the have OBEYED and become FREE from sin.  ALL of those OF FAITH obeyed whatever it was they TRUSTED.  Faith or Pistis includes TO COMPLY.

Abraham is not said to have been SAVED because he was not LOST. Sin was in the world so that people could SIN their own sin and not blame ADAM. Abraham is said to have been a RIGHTEOUS man. Saved does not mean Justified.

    Heb.11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

    Heb.11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac; and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

ISAAC was defined as THE SON because he was obedient.

    Ja. 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had OFFERED Isaac his son upon the altar?
    Ja. 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? [Pistis includes COMPLY]
    Ja.2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Abraham is not said to have BELIEVED God until he had obeyed God: Believeth means to COMPLY.

    Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for NOW I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

    Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for BECAUSE thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son,

    Gen 22:17 THAT in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

    Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; BECAUSE thou hast obeyed my voice.

God restated this to Isaac:

    Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

    Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
    Gen 26:6 And Isaac dwelt in Gerar: [Kept God's Commandments VALID BEFORE the Curse of the Law of Moses]

I don't think that means SINGULAR: Each and every time God commanded Abraham to do something and he DID IT he was justified or approved by Faith

THE LAW OF MOSES does not avail any more than running GREEN lights makes you a good citizen.

    1Co.7:19 7 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing but the keeping of the commandmentS of God.

    Ga.5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but FAITH which WORKETH by love.

    Ga.6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a NEW creature.

We are BORN AGAIN or become a new CREATURE ONLY AT BAPTISM.

    John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot SEE the kingdom of God.

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot ENTER into the kingdom of God.

Those who are baptized are ADDED to the Church, the kingdom for the WORLD as Messianic Age.  Those whose faith OBEYS have their spirits translated into the heavenly kingdom.  The Church is a SAFE HOUSE FROM THE WORLD and not a safe house FOR the WORLD as Kosmos, Ecumenical, the kingdom of the devil.

ALL RECORDED EVIDENCE IS REPUDIATED because of Saved BY Grace THROUGH Faith.  THROUGH is active and if you read the first verses of Ephesians 2 you understand that these people are ALREADY Disciples and we shows FROM WHAT we are saved or KEPT SAFE from the race of vipers BY FAITHFULNESS. That proves that TULIP is a THORN BLOSSOM.

         
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 08:59:47 by Kenneth Sublett »

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12621
  • Manna: 320
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #83 on: Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 09:06:30 »
Saved does not mean Justified.
You are correct, saved does not mean justified; however if one is saved then he has been justified and if he is justified then he has been saved.


Offline Kenneth Sublett

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2071
  • Manna: 39
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)cheives (M)ore
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #84 on: Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 09:39:50 »
That's true: one is justified or righteous in a natural sense which is a legal or civil sense.  A person who obeys the laws and is recognized as lawful is justified in a legal sense.  A person known to steal is not righteous and the community shuns them.

Because Jesus has become OUR righteousness and we are CLOTHED with HIM, God sees us as spiritually righteous.  No one can be sinless or morally perfect.  Those who refuse to come to the LIGHT do not want to be FREED.

THE OLD:    The WASHINGS that made a Jew ceremonially pure could not make the Spirit or Conscience or consciousness pure.
THE NEW:   The Washings or Baptism into Christ DOES SAVE.
BECAUSE?: BECAUSE THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO and they are UNGRACIOUS

I worry about people who believe that THEIR BELIEF is so powerful that they can REFUSE to ask for salvation.  Baptism is PURE GRACE.

Rom. 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto MANY.
Rom. 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom. 5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one;
         much more they which receive abundance of grace
         and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

HOW IS THAT?
Rom. 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom. 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom. 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom. 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom. 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom. 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom. 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom. 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom. 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 09:57:20 by Kenneth Sublett »

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 9637
  • Manna: 415
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #85 on: Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 13:24:59 »
I worry about people who believe that THEIR BELIEF is so powerful that they can REFUSE to ask for salvation.  Baptism is PURE GRACE.
Never met such a person, Kenneth. Those who are born of God's Spirit, are constantly seeking to be "saved from their ignorance, lack of love for others and the truth"....ONLY because they have already been enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were already been made partakers of the gift of the Holy Ghost!
Quote from: Kenneth Sublett
Baptism is PURE GRACE
I would ask you to explain your statement, but, I know that that would be impossible for you to do so, so I forbear. But, I will help you out a little~The "GRACE" of God provided immortality for us through the life, death, and resurrection of Christ THAT ALONE secured righteousness for us unto eternal life that we are baptized INTO...... and when we are baptized in "water baptism" this beautiful picture speaks to all that we believe we SHALL have at the RESURRECTION of our body "ELSE", why are we baptized for the dead, IF the dead rise not....having and enjoying immortality never to die again. Some wonderful scriptures to consider to support this:
Quote from: Paul
Romans 5:15-17~"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Again:
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 15:29~"Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, IF the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
One of the main reason why believers are baptized is this: "We believe in a future resurrection of our bodies unto immortality just like our Lord was raised unto! ONE of the main reasons WHY we are baptized, and to NOT be baptized is saying that you do not believe this blessed truth.
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 13:50:17 by RB »

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12621
  • Manna: 320
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #86 on: Thu Oct 26, 2017 - 13:44:56 »
Quote
Romans 5:15-17~"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

One day you are going to read that passage and the rest of it, i.e., Romans 5:11-21 and finally understand it.  As it now stands you are quite in the dark about it.

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 9637
  • Manna: 415
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #87 on: Fri Oct 27, 2017 - 08:08:42 »
I will give you the true biblical sense in which we MUSt understand Ephesians  2:8,9 in order for those precious scriptures to flow with ALL of the word of God producing a perfect harmony on one precious and glorious truth, that Salvation IS of the Lord.
I'm ready now to consider Ephesians 2:8,9 and will work hard to consider these scriptures in light of the context in which we read them.

I must confess that from when I first hear these scriptures around forty-five years ago in my mid-twenties, I received them as I was taught to understand them at that time. Over the years, my understanding has changed totally as to when I first heard them explained to me and I received it as a babe in Christ. Only in the last few years do I believe I finally "may" (UNLESS another brother could convert me to his understanding with strong proof from the scriptures) now be hearing what Paul meant when he wrote these words to church.

Truth is not something easily understood, and especially is this so by young believers, even aged believers struggle with truth at times (quite often really, if we are honest) and will until we leave this world. As I have said many times over~conversion to the correct knowledge of the truth is a lifelong process and is never totally completed, even by the very best of God's children.
Quote from: Paul
Ephesians 2:8,~For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
I'm coming back and prove that faith, which is the gift of God that saved us from sin and condemnation is speaking of CHRIST'S FAITH, not an act that came FROM US.

So, Paul used "faith" in Ephesians 2:8 "as a metonym for Christ", Now that being said I must come back and prove it, and I shall for the context without question will prove this to be so. Later...
 
« Last Edit: Fri Oct 27, 2017 - 08:10:48 by RB »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2071
  • Manna: 39
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)cheives (M)ore
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #88 on: Fri Oct 27, 2017 - 16:09:17 »
RB: you daily increase my faith.  Paul said in 2 Corinthians 3 that the unconverted or baptized people would not be able to read BLACK text on BROWN paper when it was PREACHED once a week by being READ in the assembly.

FAITH, GRACE or Spirit are contrasted to The Law of Moses.  GRACE is:

Rom. 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Grace includes the DIVINE FAVOR of power.  The Gospel is GRACE because that is the JESUS DEFINED power to Salvation.  FAITH is not the gift without READING THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN FOR OUR LEARNING.  Maybe a wet noodle is able to dally around expecting to believe SOMETHING IT HAS NEVER HEARD.

The WORD, LIGHT, GRACE etc has been made visible and audible by Jesus Christ.  The WORD (regulative principle) became FLESH when Jesus spoke only what He heard from the Father.  In the same way

Titus 2:11 For the GRACE of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 TEACHING us that,
         DENYING (you act) ungodliness and worldly lusts,
         WE should live [Active Verb] soberly, righteously,
         and godly, in this present world; [Messianic age]
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope,
        and the glorious appearing of the great God
        and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us,
        that he might REDEEM us from all iniquity,  [justification]
        and PURIFY unto himself a peculiar people,
        ZEALOUS of good works.

1Pet. 5:10 But the God of all GRACE,
         who hath called us unto his eternal glory BY Christ Jesus,
         after that ye have suffered a while, make you PERFECT, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ:
         for IT is the power of God unto salvation to every one that BELIEVETH;
         to the Jew first, and also to the Greek

g4100. pisteuo, pist-yoo´-o; from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well-being to Christ): — believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

Faith is like CREDIT one gives that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God to fulfill the prophecies about Him and those prophecies define the REST from religion both inclusively and exclusively.

No one believes something they have not heard unless they are STRONGLY DELUDED for minimizing the WORD of God.



The Law and Testimony is NOT The Law of Moses which was GIVEN BECAUSE OF TRANSGRESSION to a people abandoned. to captivity and death.

Rev. 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
Rev. 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY.

Jesus defined holy scripture for the purpose of His Creation as a FAMILY as the PROPHETS and other prophecies in the Law OF Moses and the Psalms which spoke about Messiah.  He did not include the Scribe's Record of a CARNAL nation in the Prophets and Apostles as the EDUCATION material for BUILDING up His Assembly--a school of Christ.



« Last Edit: Fri Oct 27, 2017 - 16:14:58 by Kenneth Sublett »

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12621
  • Manna: 320
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #89 on: Fri Oct 27, 2017 - 16:26:28 »
Titus 2:11 For the GRACE of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Nah, according to you and RB, the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared only to the elect.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13880
  • Manna: 368
  • Gender: Male
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #90 on: Fri Oct 27, 2017 - 16:31:26 »
I'm coming back and prove that faith, which is the gift of God that saved us from sin and condemnation is speaking of CHRIST'S FAITH, not an act that came FROM US.
Greek grammar pretty much makes it impossible that the pronoun there refers to faith.  The two words are cased differently.

Offline Alan

  • I AM Canadian!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8981
  • Manna: 305
  • Gender: Male
  • Politically Incorrect
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #91 on: Fri Oct 27, 2017 - 17:35:34 »
Greek grammar pretty much makes it impossible that the pronoun there refers to faith.  The two words are cased differently.


I still believe "it" is referring to salvation, as a subject matter, but then again other than doing some papers in school and periodic bible studies, I know little of the Greek language and it's structure.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13880
  • Manna: 368
  • Gender: Male
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #92 on: Fri Oct 27, 2017 - 17:40:16 »

I still believe "it" is referring to salvation, as a subject matter, but then again other than doing some papers in school and periodic bible studies, I know little of the Greek language and it's structure.
I made a case in an earlier post for it referring back to the word quickened in verse 5.  Where the rubber hits the road, that's the same thing as referring to salvation, since the quickening/resurrection in view is that of the regeneration.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2071
  • Manna: 39
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)cheives (M)ore
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #93 on: Fri Oct 27, 2017 - 19:44:23 »
Ehesians 2 has a verse one. This shows FROM WHAT WE ARE MADE SAFE.  Regneration or a new birth and Paul writes the same things to all of the churches.  In 2:8  the word SAVED means MADE SAFE or KEPT SAFE.  Those who were already saved or Regenerated with a new, holy spirit COULD fall from grace but they are KEPT save by Grace (which teaching) and THROUGH faith or faithfulness.

Pistos (B), ē, on, (peithō to be OBEDIENT):
2. obedient, loyal, “tēn tōn Athēnaiōn khōran oikeian kai p. poiēsasthai” X.HG2.4.30.
3. faithful, believing, Act.Ap.16.1, IG3.3435.
C. Adv. pistōs with good faith, “mē p. katamarturētheis” Antipho 2.4.7 ; loyally, D.3.26 : Comp. -oterōs Aen.Tact.22.17.

Believeth Not which cause one to be damned is:

Apistos    I. Pass., not to be trusted, and so:1. of persons and their acts, not trusty, faithless untrustworthy, groundless confidence, Th.1.120; shifty, unreliable, Pl.Lg.775d.
II. Act., mistrustful, incredulous, suspicious, “thumos de toi aien a.” Od.14.150; “ōta . . apistotera ophthalmōn” less credulous, Hdt.1.8; a. pros Philippon distrustful towards him, D.19.27; a. ei . . sautō you do not believe what you say yourself,
b. in NT, unbelieving, 1 Ep.Cor.6.6, al.
2. disobedient, disloyal,  III. Adv. apistōs:
1. Pass., beyond belief, “a. epi to muthōdes eknenikēkota” Th. 1.21; 
2. Act., distrustfully, suspiciously, Th.3.83; “a. tina diatheinai” D.20.22.
b. treacherously, Ph.1.516.





Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 9637
  • Manna: 415
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #94 on: Sat Oct 28, 2017 - 03:33:46 »
RB: you daily increase my faith. 
Kenneth, that's a good thing, but you have a very strange way of explaining just how I'm doing so. I have read your post, and you still are talking about
Quote from: Kenneth Sublett
FAITH is not the gift without READING THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN FOR OUR LEARNING.  Maybe a wet noodle is able to dally around expecting to believe SOMETHING IT HAS NEVER HEARD.
and with much verbiage other statements that's foreign to the subject at hand.
Quote from: 4WD
Nah, according to you and RB, the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared only to the elect.
Show me a phrase that Kenneth made that allows you to make this statement. He's in your camp, a fellow soldier~ he just has a different way of saying the same thing that you believe in. Do not throw this baby out with the dirty bathwater that you both take a bath in! ::smile::

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 9637
  • Manna: 415
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #95 on: Sat Oct 28, 2017 - 03:58:54 »
I made a case in an earlier post for it referring back to the word quickened in verse 5.  Where the rubber hits the road, that's the same thing as referring to salvation, since the quickening/resurrection in view is that of the regeneration.
We may not be far apart when it's all said and done,  some we will but not as far as it may seem.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh
Greek grammar pretty much makes it impossible that the pronoun there refers to faith.  The two words are cased differently.
With much respect to you and your gifted talents that you do have, I must respectfully disagree, that the Greek is needed to come unto the knowledge of the truth. What is needed above knowing the Greek is this:
Quote from: Paul
Ephesians 1:16-18~"Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,"
My dear brother, nowhere in the scriptures do we read of Christ, or his apostles going forth and telling anyone that knowing the original langauge of the OT was important in coming to the true understanding of what they had before them called the word of God. They took the scriptures preserved for them and boldly preach the word of God to others, trusting just what Paul prayed for the saints at Ephesus, which as we quoted above:
Quote from: Paul
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation
Truth is NOT found in so-called Greek language, but in the scriptures given to us by God. Brother NO MAN has seen the original epistles written by the apostles and neither do we need them....and besides, we have them, and BY FAITH we truly believe this to be so.

One more thought~most of God's children are the poor and unlearned of this world, NOT the mighty and noble and wise~ knowing this, we trust our God that he has preserved for us his word according to Psalm 12 and we truly believe he has, and we allow others to try to convince men that they are wise by knowing something they truly do not know, since the original are all long gone. 

Now, who has the spirit of wisdom and revelation/understanding given by God that will allow them to come unto the knowledge of his truth? We truly pray this for all sincere children of God.
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 28, 2017 - 04:11:54 by RB »

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12621
  • Manna: 320
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #96 on: Sat Oct 28, 2017 - 06:40:42 »
Show me a phrase that Kenneth made that allows you to make this statement. He's in your camp, a fellow soldier~ he just has a different way of saying the same thing that you believe in.
I am not going to search for all of them now, but he has made a couple of statements that suggest that unless one has been, as he puts it, given a holy spirit, one is incapable of understanding the word of God.  He said in Reply @88:
Quote
Paul said in 2 Corinthians 3 that the unconverted or baptized people would not be able to read BLACK text on BROWN paper when it was PREACHED once a week by being READ in the assembly.
But that is part and parcel to Calvin's election.
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 28, 2017 - 07:15:43 by 4WD »

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12621
  • Manna: 320
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #97 on: Sat Oct 28, 2017 - 07:04:56 »
With much respect to you and your gifted talents that you do have, I must respectfully disagree, that the Greek is needed to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
RB, the Greek is needed by someone to even give you an English translation.  Unless you can show that there is one translation that has been translated by the Holy Spirit Himself or at least translated by one with the miraculous gift of translation given by the Holy Spirit the Greek is indeed needed to come unto the knowledge of the truth; but without it you would have to learn Greek and Hebrew to even be able to read the Bible.
Quote
What is needed above knowing the Greek is this:  My dear brother, nowhere in the scriptures do we read of Christ, or his apostles going forth and telling anyone that knowing the original langauge of the OT was important in coming to the true understanding of what they had before them called the word of God.
It is well known that Paul often used the LXX when quoting the OT.  And also I believe the whole purpose of the miraculous gift by the Holy Spirit of the speaking in tongues was to supplant the need for knowing the original language of either the Greek spoken in NT times or the Hebrew of the OT.
Quote
Truth is NOT found in so-called Greek language, but in the scriptures given to us by God. Brother NO MAN has seen the original epistles written by the apostles and neither do we need them....and besides, we have them, and BY FAITH we truly believe this to be so.
I do believe that what we have as manuscripts upon which the NT Scriptures are based are almost all in Greek.  You have continually dismissed any scholarship of language in understanding what was written.
Quote
One more thought~most of God's children are the poor and unlearned of this world, NOT the mighty and noble and wise~ knowing this, we trust our God that he has preserved for us his word according to Psalm 12 and we truly believe he has, and we allow others to try to convince men that they are wise by knowing something they truly do not know, since the original are all long gone. 
I apologize up front here, but that is really a very strange idea at the very best.  Do you believe that to be true for  the Bibles that are translated into German, or Spanish, or Chinese, or Japanese, or Arabic, or any of the other hundreds and hundreds of languages?  Or is that just for the English KJV which you insist is the "right"one?.
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 28, 2017 - 07:08:43 by 4WD »

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 9637
  • Manna: 415
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #98 on: Sat Oct 28, 2017 - 07:34:45 »
Do you believe that to be true for  the Bibles that are translated into German, or Spanish, or Chinese, or Japanese, or Arabic, or any of the other hundreds and hundreds of languages?  Or is that just for the English KJV which you insist is the "right"one?.
They all have them in their own tongue. Example: I have read behind many men from many different tongues than English~ and they all use their own language to teach from, and when I read what they are quoting from their scriptures, their quotes were perfectly in line with my English Bible! Calvin was a from France; Luthern from Germany; Augustine was from northern Africa, etc. YET, their scripture quotes were just as my English scriptures.

At the moment I'm watching SLB~Jimmy Swaggart's station, and I just heard them say that they were sending many bibles to a third world group of very poor people~now, my point for mentioning this is that these poor souls could never in a hundred years have access to the so-called Greek, etc. so, my question to you is this: "Do you believe that since they are limited in resources, and maybe even in mental ability, is it possible for them to come ever come unto the knowledge of the truth WITHOUT such means, with only having the scriptures in their tongues?" You say no, I say yes they can! The key is Ephesians 1:17,18! The RCC would say IMPOSSIBLE, I would say that a unlearned boy plowing behind an old mule could easier than the most educated "holy father" in that cult.
 
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 28, 2017 - 07:40:14 by RB »

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12621
  • Manna: 320
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #99 on: Sat Oct 28, 2017 - 07:38:28 »
I'm coming back and prove that faith, which is the gift of God that saved us from sin and condemnation is speaking of CHRIST'S FAITH, not an act that came FROM US.

So, Paul used "faith" in Ephesians 2:8 "as a metonym for Christ", Now that being said I must come back and prove it, and I shall for the context without question will prove this to be so. Later...
RB, I have on numerous times pointed out to you that the phrase "faith of Christ" which appears in the KJV is a mistranslation and a misinterpretation. The idea of Christ having or needing faith is an oxymoron.  It simply makes no sense.  If you think otherwise then please describe for me what you think is meant by the KJV for the following:

Rom 3:3  For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Obviously, there also the KJV is simply a very poor and improper interpretation.  In this case it is speaking not about God's faith but about God's "faithulness" (see nearly all other translations except the KJV).   In all cases where the KJV uses the phrase "faith of Christ" (Gal 2:16 and Php 3:9) it does so incorrectly.  It should be interpreted as "faith in Christ". And in both cases it is speaking of the faith of the believer in Christ, not the faith of Christ.

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 9637
  • Manna: 415
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #100 on: Sat Oct 28, 2017 - 07:43:56 »
RB, I have on numerous times pointed out to you that the phrase "faith of Christ" which appears in the KJV is a mistranslation and a misinterpretation. The idea of Christ having or needing faith is an oxymoron.  It simply makes no sense. 
Well now, just hold now for a while and we shall indeed consider those scriptures dealing with the faith OF Christ since I said that faith in Ephesians 2:8 is "as a metonym for Christ".  Later....

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12621
  • Manna: 320
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #101 on: Sat Oct 28, 2017 - 07:50:04 »
They all have them in their own tongue. Example: I have read behind many men from many different tongues than English~ and they all use their own language to teach from, and when I read what they are quoting from their scriptures, their quotes were perfectly in line with my English Bible! Calvin was a from France; Luthern from Germany; Augustine was from northern Africa, etc. YET, their scripture quotes were just as my English scriptures.

At the moment I'm watching SLB~Jimmy Swaggart's station, and I just heard them say that they were sending many bibles to a third world group of very poor people~now, my point for mentioning this is that these poor souls could never in a hundred years have access to the so-called Greek, etc. so, my question to you is this: "Do you believe that since they are limited in resources, and maybe even in mental ability, is it possible for them to come ever come unto the knowledge of the truth WITHOUT such means, with only having the scriptures in their tongues?" You say no, I say yes they can! The key is Ephesians 1:17,18! The RCC would say IMPOSSIBLE, I would say that a unlearned boy plowing behind an old mule could easier than the most educated "holy father" in that cult.

Mat 28:18  And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19  Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20  teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Rom 10:13  For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Rom 10:14  How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Rom 10:15  And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"
Rom 10:16  But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?"
Rom 10:17  So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.


It is our job, our commission, the command given to us, to do everything we can to teach what the apostles taught.  Mistakes will be made, but we should not make those mistakes knowingly.  Relying on an incorrect and improper translation of even one sentence is a mistake.  That is why the scholarship of language is so important.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2071
  • Manna: 39
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)cheives (M)ore
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #102 on: Sat Oct 28, 2017 - 14:26:34 »
Quote
2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

I know: Scripture makes us tired but 2 Peter has a verse 2

2Pet. 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ,
        to them that have obtained like precious faith
        with us through the righteousness of God
        and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2Pet. 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you
         through the KNOWLEDGE of God,
         and of Jesus our Lord,
2Pet. 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness,
        through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pet. 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises:
        that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature,
        having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Salvation has no meaning unless we know  FROM WHAT we are KEPT SAFE.

2Pet. 1:13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle,
        To stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
2Pet. 1:14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
2Pet. 1:15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.
2Pet. 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly DEVISED FABLES [Jewish Fables]
        when we made KNOWN unto you
        the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2Pet. 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory,
        when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory,
        This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
2Pet. 1:18 And this VOICE which came from heaven we HEARD, when we were with him in the holy mount.

    Luke 24:44 And he said unto them,
            These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you,
            that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
    Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

    Jesus opens our understanding by TEACHING:

    Luke 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is WRITTE, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
    Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
    Luke 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.   
    Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you:
         but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Jesus was given the EVANGELISTIC OFFICE as Holy Spirit when He was changed to be "another" Comforter in another form

Peter left us a MEMORY of the Certified PROPHETS and prophecies.  This was the way that Jesus BESTOWED FAITH.

2Pet. 1:19 We have also a more sure WORD of prophecy;
        whereunto ye do well that ye TAKE HEED

        as unto a LIGHT that shineth in a dark place,
        until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
2Pet. 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any PRIVATE INTERPRETATION

Private or PERSONAL interpretation which means FURTHER EXPOUNDING which would despise the Holy Spirit of God. Self Interpretation is EPILUSIS and would include the works of Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites.  In Ezekiel 33 that would exclude performing preachers for hire, singers or instrument players: these would be signs that no one intends to SPPEAK the WORD or OBEY it

2Pet. 1:21 For the PROPHECY came not in old time by the WILL of man:
        but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

AND THINGS HAVE NOT CHANGED: why should we worry if the STAFF does not TEACH that which HAS BEEN TAUGHT if God GIVES FAITH without HEARING THE WORD?

2Pet. 2:1  But there were false prophets also among the people,
        even as there shall be false teachers among you, [Why worry if Peter thought that faith was a supernatural GIFT?]
        who privily shall bring in damnable heresies,
        even denying the Lord that bought them,
        and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pet. 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways;
        by reason of whom the way of TRUTH (the WORD) shall be evil spoken of.
2Pet. 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words
        make merchandise of you:
        whose judgment now of a long time lingereth
        not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

HO, every one that thirsteth,
        come ye to the waters,
        and he that hath no money;
        come ye, buy, and eat; yea,
        come, buy wine and milk WITHOUT MONEY
        and WITHOUT PRICE. Isa 55:1
2 Cor. 2:17 For we are not as many,
        which CORRUPT the word of God: [why worry about that if they SELL LEARNING AT RETAIL.]
        but as of sincerity, but as OF God,
        in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12621
  • Manna: 320
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #103 on: Sat Oct 28, 2017 - 15:46:40 »
Ken, 2 Peter 1:20 is a statement about the author not the reader. That is confirmed by the very next verse.

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 9637
  • Manna: 415
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #104 on: Sun Oct 29, 2017 - 05:02:46 »
Ken, 2 Peter 1:20 is a statement about the author not the reader. That is confirmed by the very next verse.
Agreed~but why burst his bubble, he was on a roll, not sure where he was going, but for sure he was attempting to be useful, which we should at least appreciate this coming from an elderly gentleman.