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Author Topic: Ephesians 2:8  (Read 37389 times)

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Offline soterion

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1505 on: Tue Aug 21, 2018 - 19:02:53 »
my question is does it have to be a public baptism? Could it not be by a Christian, family member, friend, or anyone in a back yard pool? Does it have to be by a  minister and in a church?

The jailer and his family were baptized in the middle of the night with no doubt little to no audience otherwise (Acts 16:25-34).

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1505 on: Tue Aug 21, 2018 - 19:02:53 »

Offline revc

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1506 on: Tue Aug 21, 2018 - 19:04:19 »
Quote from: 4WD
Once again you are led astray by your insistence in reading only the KJV, a translation from the Greek into archaic English.  Thayer says:

G1906

ἐπερώτημα

eperōtēma

Thayer Definition:
1) an enquiry, a question
2) a demand
3) earnestly seeking
3a) craving, an intense desire

Those all interpret best as an appeal not an answer.

1Pe 3:21  Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

The same word is found in Romans 10:20 where the KJV translators did better by translating it "ask."  I have seen some translate it "prayer" in 1 Peter 3:21, "a prayer to God for a good conscience."  Of course, this is all meaningful if we are interested in learning and knowing the truth rather than ignoring all available data in favor of preconception.  An honest student of the scriptures will not take only one centuries-old translation and base understanding on that alone for it is impossible to see the same words translation is based on and the different ways they decide to translate the same words.  I can't respect anyone that presumes to be a teacher who will totally ignore the text on which a translation is based. 

RC

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1506 on: Tue Aug 21, 2018 - 19:04:19 »

Offline soterion

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1507 on: Tue Aug 21, 2018 - 19:08:38 »

Does a baby have a conscience that is in operation?~Of course not, so they can not be baptized.


A baby has no conscience, but can be held accountable for the sins of an ancestor and be condemned for it. ::frown::

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1507 on: Tue Aug 21, 2018 - 19:08:38 »

Offline AVZ

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1508 on: Tue Aug 21, 2018 - 22:35:37 »
The thing that sets man apart from other parts of creation is the ability to make a choice "decisions". Do you think that God would give us that unique ability, then, void it by making "for" us, the most important decision we can make?  I don't think so. I don't believe God made that decision "for" us, but gave us the ability to choose the option of eternal life. Remember, Jesus was with God in the beginning, before creation, and time doesn't exist in God's economy anyhow. Choosing to be a Christ follower is "our" decision, God gave us the option. IMO.

Yes God gives us the ability to choose. There is no argument about that.
What scripture states is that man's nature drives man to make the wrong choices.

You may easily turn this around.
We all believe that God has the ability to choose, in fact He is the only person that can make objective true free choices.
Yet we know and declare that God's nature does not allow Him to do evil, so God cannot make wrong choices.
So to an extend God is able, yet He is unable.

In order for man to break through his inability to make the right choices, an external agent needs to interfere and conquer his nature.
And that's what God does. It is God who sends His Holy Spirit to convince man, and it is God who regenerates man so he is able to see the things that are from God.
Without God's interference, man remains blind and unable to respond.

And yet your human nature remains, because even now that you are a Christian and you are convinced of what's good and what's evil, you keep on sinning every day.
So even after you responded correctly and after you committed...you keep on making the wrong choices.
Then if man has this unique ability...why do you continue to fail?

It's not your ability to choose, because every time you sin you had the choice to do the right thing.
As scripture explains it, you are driven by your nature. Even now.

So the whole thing is not simply about Christ having sacrificed Himself, and God giving us an objective option to either believe that or not.
Before we are able to believe, God needs to interfere and make us ready to accept it.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1508 on: Tue Aug 21, 2018 - 22:35:37 »

Offline AVZ

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1509 on: Tue Aug 21, 2018 - 22:37:19 »
You, if I recall, believe a person must have faith in Jesus to be saved; RB does not believe this.

In RB's defense, I think you are misrepresenting what RB believes.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1509 on: Tue Aug 21, 2018 - 22:37:19 »



Online NorrinRadd

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1510 on: Tue Aug 21, 2018 - 23:36:28 »
So are you saying one can have it done in private?

Well, since I view it mainly as a testimony, doing it in private would lessen its import.

Even in the case of the eunuch, it was not just the two of them.  The driver or drivers of the chariot (8:38) also bore witness, albeit from a distance.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1510 on: Tue Aug 21, 2018 - 23:36:28 »

Offline soterion

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1511 on: Wed Aug 22, 2018 - 00:17:16 »
In RB's defense, I think you are misrepresenting what RB believes.


Then you don't actually read his posts, do you? Going by your response to me here, I take it that you believe we have to have faith in Christ to be saved from our sins/be born again in Christ. If you didn't believe that, then you would have no problem with RB saying otherwise, and you wouldn't have challenged me on this.

Quote from Reply #1269 on page 37:

But, to dear gram's believing faith saves us~our faith has not one thing to do with us being born of God~our faith IS the means of us being saved from error to truth, from false prophets to the truth, from ignorance to true understanding of gospel truths in the word of God, etc. etc.

Quote from Reply #1309 on page 38:

We are saved from sin and condemnation THROUGH the faith, obedience, and righteousness of Jesus Christ. Our faith does indeed save us but in a totally different sense than from sin and condemnation...Our faith is the results of the new birth and the power to have faith was given on the behalf of Jesus' life of faith and obedience through the new birth.

In other words, we do not have faith prior to being saved from sin and condemnation. Our faith has no one thing to do with our being born of God. We do not have faith until after we are born again.

Don't forget this, which I posted earlier, which you seemed to have missed:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/ephesians-28-98051/msg1055112633/#msg1055112633

Offline RB

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1512 on: Wed Aug 22, 2018 - 03:51:43 »
A baby has no conscience, but can be held accountable for the sins of an ancestor and be condemned for it. ::frown::
Absouletly.
Quote from: Paul our mentor
Romans 5:14~"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Who is "even over THEM" that had not sinned after Adam's transgression? INFANTS, feebleminded, etc. We have just dealt with this very point in another thread where you could have said something there if you had a desire to do on this points. Do you believe any infants died in the flood? What goes through your mind when you read scriptures where God commanded Israel to kill ALL including suckling children? It happened more than once in the OT. About here:
Quote
2nd Kings 2:23,24~"And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
Again you had your chance when we went through Romans 5:12-21 just a few weeks ago verse by verse.
Quote from: soterion Reply #1507 on: Yesterday at 19:08:38
A baby has no conscience, but can be held accountable for the sins of an ancestor and be condemned for it. ::frown::
By the doctrine of IMPUTATION, the same doctrine that is the ONLY ground of FREE Justification for God's people.
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 22, 2018 - 06:09:48 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1513 on: Wed Aug 22, 2018 - 04:08:57 »
Baptism is not into a religion. It is into Christ Himself, and it is a union together with Him in His crucifixion and resurrection (Romans 6:3-11).

God heard Cornelius although He was not saved (Acts 10:1-4). The blind man who said that about God not hearing sinners was not speaking for God. He was speaking for himself regarding his opinion of Jesus during his defense in front of the Sanhedrin (John 9:24-34).


You men have water on your brain! You have hijacked this thread and turned it into a baptismal thread ...AMAZING! Look at the last ten or so posts ALL DEALING with BAPTISM and AMONG yourself over silly questions! Questions that my grandchildren would be discussing...pitiful!

Yet I will come back and address your post~in the red highlighted mainly, and a few others, after I stay on track finishing my post that I started a few days ago.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1513 on: Wed Aug 22, 2018 - 04:08:57 »

Offline RB

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1514 on: Wed Aug 22, 2018 - 04:45:55 »
                                          Proof #6 of 7~The Bible gives examples of sinners saved without any conditions.

Since God saves sinners unconditionally by His own sovereign wisdom and power in Jesus Christ, and the gospel and its ordinances are only for the education and comfort of the elect, then there must be be examples of such cases in the Bible, or we do not have a right to believe and teach others the same~ And there are many. The previous proofs and the following examples solve the perpetual questions men have had about infants, idiots, and the heathen. Salvation is by God's grace alone, and it can easily reach every class of man in every situation. The examples to follow cover every man and thus are comforts for our souls. We have already shown in the previous five proofs that God's elect are saved fully and infallibly "without" conditions. But let us add to these proofs with specific examples of such from the Bible.

What about John the Baptist? He leaped for joy in his mother's womb at the presence of Jesus, and he did so by the Holy Ghost (Luke 1:15, 44). Joy is a fruit of the Spirit and an evidence of eternal life, so we know John was saved before he was born (Galatians 5:22; Romans 8:14-15; Ist Peter 1:8). Any of you men who are against my understanding PLEASE address John the Baptist example...it should be very entertaining to watch you. I do NOT expect certain men to even try to attempt to explain how John FILLED with the Spirit even in his mother's womb WITHOUT circumcision and water baptism! 

What about Cornelius? He feared God, which no unregenerated man can or does (Romans 3:18); and he gave alms and prayed acceptably to God (Acts 10:1-4). And this was true before hearing the gospel or being baptized. Peter revealed by the Spirit he was already accepted with God (Acts 10:34-35). More could be said, but we will wait for you men to prove that Cornelius was not born of the Spirit BEFORE Peter ever arrived and preached the first words to him. He needed to be saved for SURE, but not in the sense in which you men believe. For you to believe biblically would mean that your false religion would be exposed for what it is....another gospel under the curse of God per Paul from Galatians chapter one...a double curse.

What about Lot? He loved Sodom more than righteousness, and he ended up incestuously with his daughters in a cave (Genesis 13:12; Genesis 19:14, 16, 20, 36). Yet we are taught by the Spirit Lot was a just and righteous man, saved by the glorious grace of God by Christ's obedience (2nd Peter 2:7-9). The ONLY ground upon which he was righteous and the only ground upon which he would inherit eternal life in the world to come.

What about the rich young ruler? Though he chose his riches over Christ, Jesus loved him; and he went away sorrowful~two marks of a man with eternal life (Mark 10:17-27). Jesus hates the wicked (Psalm 5:5; Matthew 7:23); and only spiritual men desire to follow Christ. Riches are a strong obstacle to obedience, but salvation by an omnipotent God is easy even in such cases.

What about Israel in the wilderness? They ate and drank spiritually of Jesus Christ, which is to have eternal life (Ist Corinthians 10:1-4); but they were disobedient and rebellious (Ist Corinthians 10:5). Yet God chose them, chastened them, called them children, and loved them (Deuteronomy 7:6-8; 8:5; 14:1; 33:1-3).

What about blinded Israel? Who fear God and believe in God, yet NOT according to TRUE KNOWLEDGE. (Romans 10:1-13) Paul declares that a portion of elect Israel was blinded to the gospel, so that though they were enemies of the gospel, they were beloved in the election of grace~(Romans 11:25-32). MUCH LIKE many here on this forum.

What about infants? There is no doctrine of salvation on earth that consistently and Scripturally provides for infants (and idiots, and the heathen) , except the truth of unconditional salvation. Since eternal life is entirely by God's grace in Jesus Christ, dying elect infants (idiots, and the heathen...THINK ABOUT THIS before rejecting what I'm saying...how would YOU, and/or your doctrine, get them to heaven?) are saved the same way as all other sinners.
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 22, 2018 - 06:11:41 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1515 on: Wed Aug 22, 2018 - 05:51:15 »
The jailer and his family were baptized in the middle of the night with no doubt little to no audience otherwise (Acts 16:25-34).
The eunuch in Acts 8 was apparently baptized with Stephen as the only one likely present.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1516 on: Wed Aug 22, 2018 - 06:29:08 »
A baby has no conscience, but can be held accountable for the sins of an ancestor and be condemned for it. ::frown::
Absouletly.
What a disgusting view of God.

With respect to your comment about Romans 5:14,
Quote from: RB
Who is "even over THEM" that had not sinned after Adam's transgression?
It is not speaking of those who sinned after Adam's transgression in time as you seem to be suggesting.  It is " even over those who had not sinned in the likeness [KJV - the similitude] of the offense of Adam," that is those who had not disobeyed a direct command of God as Adam had. That has nothing to do with infants, feeble minded, who, by any biblical meaning of sin, cannot sin.
 
Quote from: RB
Again you had your chance when we went through Romans 5:12-21 just a few weeks ago verse by verse.
Page after page of pure unadulterated nonsense, driven by the false doctrines of total depravity and unconditional election.  All that is needed to repute your verse by verse treatment of Romans 5:12-21 is to point out that total depravity and unconditional election are false doctrines.
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 22, 2018 - 06:32:28 by 4WD »

Offline RB

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1517 on: Wed Aug 22, 2018 - 06:34:37 »
All that is needed to repute your verse by verse treatment of Romans 5:12-21 is to point out that total depravity and unconditional election are false doctrines.
Which you nor your friends can do.

Online Jaime

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1518 on: Wed Aug 22, 2018 - 06:49:36 »
Red, please address or speak of each poster individually by their names. We don’t refer to those that agree with you as “those people” or your gang of marauders. We are people that have a difference of opinion. I would ask all of us (including myself) to respond to each other more calmly. If for no other reason than to set an example for the “heathen marauding gang of opponents”. I have asked at least one question that no one has answered. “Paul’s sins had to be washed away in baptism according to Ananias. Why? if that isn’t where sins are washed away. And what was he to be calling on the Lord for if not for a clear conscience. Please let’s all respond with no more than a smidgeon of evil condescension. Or at least for the real Christians. Also if this question is only worthy of a child’s answer, please ask one to respond to me if you prefer not to. I have pledged to never again bring up baptism if Paul didn’t have a sin problem that needed to be addressed with God’s prescription of baptism just as we do. Where HE chose to apply the blood of Christ.

If we can all agree baptism has something to do with salvation or at least Paul’s sin problem, I have no reason to bring up baptism again. Think of it!
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 22, 2018 - 09:51:33 by Jaime »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1519 on: Wed Aug 22, 2018 - 07:21:24 »
                           
What about John the Baptist? He leaped for joy in his mother's womb at the presence of Jesus, and he did so by the Holy Ghost (Luke 1:15, 44).
Balaam's donkey spoke by the power of the Holy Spirit.  So I guess by your measure, Balaam's donkey had been regenerated and saved.
Quote from: RB
What about Lot? He loved Sodom more than righteousness, and he ended up incestuously with his daughters in a cave (Genesis 13:12; Genesis 19:14, 16, 20, 36). Yet we are taught by the Spirit Lot was a just and righteous man, saved by the glorious grace of God by Christ's obedience (2nd Peter 2:7-9). The ONLY ground upon which he was righteous and the only ground upon which he would inherit eternal life in the world to come.
2 Peter 2:7-9 doesn't say that Lot was saved unconditionally.  Just the opposite.  Lot is said to be righteous.  "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment" (2 Pet 2:9) God rescues the godly, the righteous, and  punishes the ungodly, the unrighteous.  Those are the conditions.
Quote from: RB
What about the rich young ruler? Though he chose his riches over Christ, Jesus loved him; and he went away sorrowful~two marks of a man with eternal life (Mark 10:17-27). Jesus hates the wicked (Psalm 5:5; Matthew 7:23); and only spiritual men desire to follow Christ. Riches are a strong obstacle to obedience, but salvation by an omnipotent God is easy even in such cases.
But there is nothing in that passage to suggest that the rich young ruler was saved.  In fact quite the opposite.
Quote from: RB
What about Israel in the wilderness? They ate and drank spiritually of Jesus Christ, which is to have eternal life (Ist Corinthians 10:1-4); but they were disobedient and rebellious (Ist Corinthians 10:5). Yet God chose them, chastened them, called them children, and loved them (Deuteronomy 7:6-8; 8:5; 14:1; 33:1-3).
And yet there remained only a remnant that were actually saved. The rest "were broken off for their unbelief" (Rom 11:5) Their unbelief was the condition for their being broken off. The belief of the remnant was the condition for their being saved.
Quote from: RB
What about infants? There is no doctrine of salvation on earth that consistently and Scripturally provides for infants (and idiots, and the heathen) , except the truth of unconditional salvation.
Infants and idiots have not sinned and therefore need no salvation.  They are not dead in their trespasses and sins, since they are incapable to committing any trespasses and sins. If you would just get rid of that horrendous, that terrible, that ridiculous, that ungodly concept of total depravity or even original sin, it would be clear to you that they simply do not need to be saved.  They have done nothing to be condemned for.
Quote from: RB
What about Cornelius?
And what about Cornelius.  He was regenerated, i.e, saved, when he was baptized.  His was in like manner to all those Jews in Acts 2:38.

Unconditional condemnation/salvation is a farce.  It makes a mockery of God's holiness, righteousness, graciousness and honor.

Offline soterion

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1520 on: Wed Aug 22, 2018 - 09:02:42 »
Absouletly. Who is "even over THEM" that had not sinned after Adam's transgression? INFANTS, feebleminded, etc. We have just dealt with this very point in another thread where you could have said something there if you had a desire to do on this points. Do you believe any infants died in the flood? What goes through your mind when you read scriptures where God commanded Israel to kill ALL including suckling children? It happened more than once in the OT. About here: Again you had your chance when we went through Romans 5:12-21 just a few weeks ago verse by verse. By the doctrine of IMPUTATION, the same doctrine that is the ONLY ground of FREE Justification for God's people.

Well, there are any number of reasons why I may not have responded to that exact point at that very time. One of those reasons will be that I might have answered to that point to you before, and I didn't want to be redundant. Another is that those posts are rather long and with so much to respond to, I may have opted out because of time. Anyway, I will answer it now.

First of all, verse 12 is the base scripture upon which to interpret the following section. The reason death spread to all men is not by imputation of Adam's sin, but because all actively sinned (committed their own sins).

This encompasses verses 13 and 14. The similitude of verse 14 is the breaking of a direct commandment from God given to another in a covenant. This Adam did. From Adam until Moses we do not have any such commandments given from God to men, not until God made covenant with the Israelites on Mt. Sinai.

Nevertheless, Paul says death reigned from Adam until Moses, meaning there was law, just not like what was given to Adam and then to the Israelites. Inasmuch as Paul said death spread to all men because all committed sin, then all those from Adam until Moses were breaking law; they all committed their own sins.

Do you believe the people of Noah's time who God blotted out had not been committing any sins? Whatever law God had given to them, and regardless of how He gave it to them, it was not like what He had given to Adam or to Moses.

Again, sin is not imputed where there is no law, but sin was imputed from Adam until Moses. There was law from Adam until Moses. Man was actively disobedient to the will of God from Adam until Moses.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1521 on: Wed Aug 22, 2018 - 18:09:30 »
Red, please address or speak of each poster individually by their names. We don’t refer to those that agree with you as “those people” or your gang of marauders. We are people that have a difference of opinion. I would ask all of us (including myself) to respond to each other more calmly. If for no other reason than to set an example for the “heathen marauding gang of opponents”. I have asked at least one question that no one has answered. “Paul’s sins had to be washed away in baptism according to Ananias. Why? if that isn’t where sins are washed away. And what was he to be calling on the Lord for if not for a clear conscience. Please let’s all respond with no more than a smidgeon of evil condescension. Or at least for the real Christians. Also if this question is only worthy of a child’s answer, please ask one to respond to me if you prefer not to. I have pledged to never again bring up baptism if Paul didn’t have a sin problem that needed to be addressed with God’s prescription of baptism just as we do. Where HE chose to apply the blood of Christ.

If we can all agree baptism has something to do with salvation or at least Paul’s sin problem, I have no reason to bring up baptism again. Think of it!
Still waiting for someone to address this request

Offline revc

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1522 on: Wed Aug 22, 2018 - 20:42:59 »
Quote from: 4WD
Infants and idiots have not sinned and therefore need no salvation.  They are not dead in their trespasses and sins, since they are incapable to committing any trespasses and sins.

This is true. They are still alive, spiritually speaking.  Nobody is born spiritually dead.  Ephesians 2:1 specifies that people become dead by means of trespasses and sins (datives of means). The state (location) specified in Eph. 2:1 is not sin, it is death.  Thus the datives τοις παραπτωμασιν και ταις αμαρτιαις are causal and not local.  For one to become dead he must first be alive (c.f., Rom. 7:9-11).  Paul explicitly says he was alive until he broke God's law.  He did not need saved until he he died by sinning.  The same goes for everyone. 

RC

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1523 on: Wed Aug 22, 2018 - 20:46:02 »
Red, please address or speak of each poster individually by their names. We don’t refer to those that agree with you as “those people” or your gang of marauders. We are people that have a difference of opinion. I would ask all of us (including myself) to respond to each other more calmly. If for no other reason than to set an example for the “heathen marauding gang of opponents”. I have asked at least one question that no one has answered. “Paul’s sins had to be washed away in baptism according to Ananias. Why? if that isn’t where sins are washed away. And what was he to be calling on the Lord for if not for a clear conscience. Please let’s all respond with no more than a smidgeon of evil condescension. Or at least for the real Christians. Also if this question is only worthy of a child’s answer, please ask one to respond to me if you prefer not to. I have pledged to never again bring up baptism if Paul didn’t have a sin problem that needed to be addressed with God’s prescription of baptism just as we do. Where HE chose to apply the blood of Christ.

If we can all agree baptism has something to do with salvation or at least Paul’s sin problem, I have no reason to bring up baptism again. Think of it!

It is the physical marker of salvation.  Baptism is intrinsically tied to Faith, as evidenced by "calling on His name" which mirrors 1 Peter 3:20-21.

God's prescription is not baptism, but faith, which is immediately followed by baptism. 

The push to tie down the absolute minutia of the contact with the blood of Christ, with nary a word about faith leads many to believe that you are teaching baptismal regeneration.  I know that is not true of you Jaime, but your explanation will not gain you any converts in thought from the "evangelicals."

You have said before that scripture should be taken in a cumulative fashion, and I agree, but I don't believe the quoted post does that.  I think it parses baptism from faith.

Online Jaime

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1524 on: Wed Aug 22, 2018 - 21:16:40 »
Baptism IS a faith response. I don’t believe I have parsed it from faith. As with Paul, he had a sin problem that urgently needed attention IN baptism. Did Ananias also parse baptism from faith or is it just part of God’s plan? I might have considered the possibility that Ananias was mistaken, but he was God’s chosen vessel in Paul’s transition from his Damascus road experience. And I assume he heard God’s will to convey to Paul. Sins are washed by the blood of Christ as we all know. In Acts 22, Ananias said washing of sins occurs IN baptism. To me somehow God applies the blood IN baptism. I don’t consider that separate from faith, but one continuum unless I am misunderstanding your concern. I appreciate the input.

« Last Edit: Wed Aug 22, 2018 - 21:23:13 by Jaime »

Offline AVZ

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1525 on: Wed Aug 22, 2018 - 21:31:22 »
Baptism IS a faith response. I don’t believe I have parsed it from faith. As with Paul, he had a sin problem that urgently needed attention IN baptism. Did Ananias also parse baptism from faith or is it just part of God’s plan? I might have considered the possibility that Ananias was mistaken, but he was God’s chosen vessel in Paul’s transition from his Damascus road experience. And I assume he heard God’s will to convey to Paul. Sins are washed by the blood of Christ as we all know. In Acts 22, Ananias said washing of sins occurs IN baptism. To me somehow God applies the blood IN baptism. I don’t consider that separate from faith, but one continuum unless I am misunderstanding your concern. I appreciate the input.

If the blood is applied in baptism, or can only be applied in baptism, we can agree that those who are not baptized cannot be saved.
Romans 10:9-10 then seems to give us only part of the story, and would therefore be incorrect.
"If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1526 on: Wed Aug 22, 2018 - 22:16:05 »
Before verse 8 Paul shows FROM WHAT we are KEPT SAFE because Ephesians 1 proves that they have already been saved with a parallel statement like "baptism

Eph. 2:1 And you HATH he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph. 2:2 Wherein in TIME PAST
        ye WALKED according to the course of this world,
        according to the prince of the power of the air,
        the SPIRIT that now worketh in the children of DISOBEDIENCE:

This is the spirit of the BELIEVETH NOTS who do NOT comply and be baptized. OBEDIENCE is something by which we ask for Remission of sins.

Eph. 2:3 Among whom also we all HAD our conversation
        in TIMES PAST in the lusts of our flesh,
        fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind;
        and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Eph. 2:4  But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph. 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins,
        HATH QUICKENED us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph. 2:6 And hath RAISED US UP together, [After baptism]
        and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

That happens when we are Baptized and out spirits are tranllated into the heavenly kingdom.




Baptism is the SEAL and is the ONLY THING which DOES and which ILLUSTRATES how we are saved by God's Grace which Teaches and Faith which means to COMPLY.

Eph. 2:7 That in the ages TO COME he might
        shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye SAVED through faith;
        and that not of yourselves: it is the GIFT of God:

Faith cannot be the GIFT because being SAVED comes THROUGH Faith. Salvation is the Gift of God.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1527 on: Wed Aug 22, 2018 - 22:34:21 »
When we are washed with pure or purifying water (says Luther) we are SPRINKLED FROM sin by the blood of Jesus.  There is no other way to associate blood and its power.

Heb. 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith,
        having our hearts sprinkled
        from an EVIL conscience,
and our bodies washed with pure water.

1Pet. 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us
          (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, [Jewish baptism of the body only)
          but the REQUEST FOR a GOOD conscience toward God,)
          BY the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

You can contact blood by dying on the cross or you can IMITATE A PATTERN [form Tupos OR TYPE and be baptized and THEN BE FREE FROM SIN.

If you need to debate with the Scriptures claimed to be by God's Spirit then you DO NOT HAVE TO BE BAPTIZED.  I think such debating with God is the secret knowledge that they are OF the World and Jesus said He didn't pray for the world even though His real Human Sacrifice by the religionists proved that ceremonal uncleanness was a FABRICATION by FABRICATORS.

Those who despise PATTERNISTS also deny that THEY have to OBEY a PATTERN to be free from sin.

Offline soterion

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1528 on: Wed Aug 22, 2018 - 22:35:54 »
It is the physical marker of salvation.  Baptism is intrinsically tied to Faith, as evidenced by "calling on His name" which mirrors 1 Peter 3:20-21.

God's prescription is not baptism, but faith, which is immediately followed by baptism. 

The push to tie down the absolute minutia of the contact with the blood of Christ, with nary a word about faith leads many to believe that you are teaching baptismal regeneration.  I know that is not true of you Jaime, but your explanation will not gain you any converts in thought from the "evangelicals."

You have said before that scripture should be taken in a cumulative fashion, and I agree, but I don't believe the quoted post does that.  I think it parses baptism from faith.

1 Peter 2:24.
who his own self bare our sins in his body upon the tree, that we, having died unto sins, might live unto righteousness; by whose stripes ye were healed.

Jesus bore our sins in His body on the cross that we might die unto sins and live unto righteousness.

Romans 6:1-7.
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein? Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.

For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection; knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him , that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin; for he that hath died is justified from sin.


Baptism is how a person is crucified together with Christ that the body of sin might be done away and the person dies to sin.

Colossians 2:11-13.
in whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

And you, being dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, you, I say , did he make alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses;


Baptism is a person putting his faith in the power/working of God. People who separate baptism from faith do err greatly. Also, if it is not on the cross of Christ that a person comes into contact with His cleansing blood, then do tell where it is.

Offline soterion

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1529 on: Wed Aug 22, 2018 - 22:43:49 »
If the blood is applied in baptism, or can only be applied in baptism, we can agree that those who are not baptized cannot be saved.
Romans 10:9-10 then seems to give us only part of the story, and would therefore be incorrect.
"If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."

Well, going by that reasoning, then Acts 22:16 is also only part of the story, and thus incorrect, since it leaves out confession with the mouth.

But then, why is it that if a single passage does not tell the whole story, then it has to be considered incorrect? Every passage in the Bible by itself would have to be considered incorrect, since no one passage tells it all.

How about, Romans 10:9-10 is correct, and Acts 22:16 is correct, and every other passage by itself is correct, and together we get the whole picture.

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1530 on: Wed Aug 22, 2018 - 22:56:11 »
1 Peter 2:24.
who his own self bare our sins in his body upon the tree, that we, having died unto sins, might live unto righteousness; by whose stripes ye were healed.

Jesus bore our sins in His body on the cross that we might die unto sins and live unto righteousness.

Romans 6:1-7.
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein? Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.

For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection; knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him , that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin; for he that hath died is justified from sin.


Baptism is how a person is crucified together with Christ that the body of sin might be done away and the person dies to sin.

Colossians 2:11-13.
in whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

And you, being dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, you, I say , did he make alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses;


Baptism is a person putting his faith in the power/working of God. People who separate baptism from faith do err greatly. Also, if it is not on the cross of Christ that a person comes into contact with His cleansing blood, then do tell where it is.
...but one does not get baptised in order to become a believer. One is baptised because one is a believer (Acts 2.41).

Offline soterion

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1531 on: Wed Aug 22, 2018 - 23:12:32 »
...but one does not get baptised in order to become a believer. One is baptised because one is a believer (Acts 2.41).

Acts 2:38-41.
And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him. And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. They then that received his word were baptized: and there were added unto them in that day about three thousand souls.

So, those who received Peter's word were baptized. Why they should be baptized was told them earlier in verse 38. Those who were baptized were added to the number of those being saved (verse 47).

Of course, if a person did not believe Peter's message, that person would not bother receiving baptism according to what Peter preached. Those who did receive Peter's message submitted to baptism out of faith in God's power/working that what Peter said would be granted in verse 38 would take place.

Online NorrinRadd

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1532 on: Wed Aug 22, 2018 - 23:12:34 »
Still waiting for someone to address this request


If what you and Jaime require is a Scripture explicitly stating, "Water baptism is definitely the thing that washes away sin, and it is an indispensible part of salvation," or "Water baptism has no actual part in washing away sin, or in the process of salvation," no such things will be presented, because they do not exist.

Regarding the latter view, which I share, I made my case here in a separate and more appropriate thread.

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1533 on: Wed Aug 22, 2018 - 23:19:10 »
Acts 2:38-41.
And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him. And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. They then that received his word were baptized: and there were added unto them in that day about three thousand souls.

So, those who received Peter's word were baptized. Why they should be baptized was told them earlier in verse 38. Those who were baptized were added to the number of those being saved (verse 47).

Of course, if a person did not believe Peter's message, that person would not bother receiving baptism according to what Peter preached. Those who did receive Peter's message submitted to baptism out of faith in God's power/working that what Peter said would be granted in verse 38 would take place.
The saving faith is exercised when one trusts in the Lord's work at the Cross. The faith is not in the baptism.

Offline RB

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1534 on: Thu Aug 23, 2018 - 03:26:16 »
Still waiting for someone to address this request
There will be NO PROBLEM in doing so, EVEN THOUGH I can give HUNDRED of arguments and scriptures with very little response back. But, that's okay, you will receive an answer from any verse you think may give you support in your doctrine...that's MY duty to do so and I WILL. But first I have a list to follow and will address any scriptures as I come to them

Offline RB

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1535 on: Thu Aug 23, 2018 - 03:47:47 »
Also, if it is not on the cross of Christ that a person comes into contact with His cleansing blood, then do tell where it is.
My doctrine can easily answer that question, your doctrine cannot be supported by scriptures.

I want to come back and deal in depth with this question because I have others ahead of this, but to be short....the elect where IN CHRIST part of HIS BODY while he lived in this world in the flesh...what he did, it was AS THOUGH we did it; when he died; we died WITH HIM; when he AROSE from the dead legally we arose WITH HIM; where he NOW sits, and we too sit WITH HIM being members of HIS BODY he being the HEAD! So, to answer your question..his death WAS OUR death, his (and ours) resurrection from the dead because death had NO CLAIMS upon him (or US), the scriptures teach it was THERE we come into contact with the blood of Jesus Christ (his death, where blood was shed)~that is, in his death and resurrection is WHERE we come into contact with the blood of Jesus Christ!
Quote from: Paul
Ephesians 2:4-9~"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; (CHRIST'S) and that not of yourselves:(WHICH PROVES THAT IT WAS CHRIST'S FAITH!) it is the gift of God: (GIVEN TO US ON THE BEHALF OF CHRIST!) Not of works, lest any man should boast. (HOW CAN WE BOAST IF IT WAS CHRIST'S AND NOT OURS?) "
Quote from: yogi bear Reply #1521 on: Yesterday at 18:09:30
Still waiting for someone to address this request
How about you addressing this post of mine while I address Acts 22? Fair enough?

When one has the truth, defending it becomes MUCH easier.

« Last Edit: Thu Aug 23, 2018 - 03:56:17 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1536 on: Thu Aug 23, 2018 - 03:58:59 »
The saving faith is exercised when one trusts in the Lord's work at the Cross. The faith is not in the baptism.
Dear sir, there is NO such thing as saving faith unless you are speaking of Christ's perfect faith, which alone has saving virtue and God accepts! The law of God demands PERFECTION and will not accept anything less, before it can justify a sinner.
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 23, 2018 - 04:01:59 by RB »

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1537 on: Thu Aug 23, 2018 - 04:01:50 »
Dear sir, there is NO such thing as saving faith unless you are speaking of Christ's perfect faith, which alone has saving virtue and God accepts!
Ephesians 2.8: 'by grace are ye saved through faith...'

Offline RB

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1538 on: Thu Aug 23, 2018 - 04:03:46 »
Ephesians 2.8: 'by grace are ye saved through faith...'
Did you not read  Reply #1535 on: Today at 03:47:4?

Offline RB

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1539 on: Thu Aug 23, 2018 - 04:24:40 »
                                        Proof #7 of 7~Unconditional salvation is the only doctrine giving God all the glory.

Eternal life entirely by grace without human conditions gives God an infinite and undivided measure of glory. Any conditional system of salvation, even those requiring only faith, make man the determiner of his own destiny~and thus his own saviour. But there will be no sharing of glory in heaven, for Jesus Christ will receive it all. The wicked that will perish, will do so NOT because they failed to do what the righteous did, but rather because Jesus Christ did not do for them what He did for the righteous. Salvation is of the Lord, and this fact cannot be modified or compromised.

If a mere offer requires conditions, then it is a reward and not a free gift; then the Giver is in debt to the one meeting the conditions (Romans 4:4); then it is of works rather than grace (Romans 11:6); then the Giver is robbed of glory by the one performing (Ist Corinthians 1:26-31). Only by eliminating all conditions does God get all the glory (Ephesians 2:9; Romans 11:33-36; Ist Corinthians 4:7; Titus 3:4-7).

The true God is Jealous, and He will not share His glory (Exodus 34:14; Isaiah 42:8). He has so designed salvation to give Himself all the glory (AGAIN Ist Corinthians 1:26-31; Romans 2:29; 9:23; Ephesians 2:7).

God created all things~even the wicked for the day of evil~for Himself and His own pleasure (Proverbs 16:4; Revelation 4:11). He did not create us for our pleasure, and then helped us out of our sins. He was not surprised by sin in Eden at all, for it was all part of His purpose to glorify Himself.

Salvation is not remedial to deliver damned sinners God pitied, but rather revelatory of His glorious nature by the judgment of the wicked and the deliverance of the elect (Romans 9:14-24). He chose to display His wrath and power in the one category and His glorious riches in the other. Those are not my words but Paul's.

Many talk and sing about salvation by grace, but only unconditional eternal life is truly gracious; for if we add conditions to His grace, then sinners choose their own salvation. The difference between heaven and the second death is God's choice(Ist Thessalonians  1:2-4; 2nd Thessalonians 2:13).

God based salvation on His own will in predestination for His own glory (Ephesains 1:5-6, 11,12). He has mercy on whom He chooses, without regard for man's will or efforts (Romans 9:15-16).

If God wanted all men saved and sent Jesus to die for them, based on their compliance, then two things are true~ He is the most frustrated Being and His work effectively accomplished nothing.

Jesus victoriously saved His people from their sins without losing one (Matthew 1:21; John 6:39), and the elect knows He saved them exclusively by Himself (Revelation 5:1-14; Hebrews 2:13; Revelation 6:10).

There is only one soul winner in heaven ~Jesus Christ, the Son of God. All of God's children said Amen, and Amen!


 

     
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