Author Topic: Ephesians 2:8  (Read 52736 times)

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Offline RB

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1680 on: Tue Sep 04, 2018 - 03:44:42 »
You are not the only one who posted something like this recently. I believe RB said something similar.
Concerning this question?
Quote
When David sinned with Bathsheba...who died?
I did not. Even though ALL of the generation of Adam's children sinned IN HIM, that I know to be true and there I stand.

Again, what makes a infant's spirit more important than a ninety-year-old person, living in a very remote part of this world with little or no contact with the rest of the world and who has never heard a gospel message in their lifetime, and overall had little chance to sin as most of the people of this earth does freely at their hands. Infants, when left to themselves will follow evil even more so than their parents to the degree God leaves them to themselves without restraining them, as he does some.
Quote from: David
Psalm 76:10~"Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain."
See also: 1st Chronicles 4:10; Psalm 19:13; Luke 11:4; 2nd Thessalonians 2:7; etc. That's the very reason why the children of Israel destroyed all that had life when they destroyed a nation. Why else would they had done so? There's no other reason.

Ephesians 2:9 is getting off track...maybe it has already derailed.

Offline RB

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1681 on: Tue Sep 04, 2018 - 03:54:43 »
If this was only about spiritual resurrection, Jesus did not need to undergo death and physical resurrection. Yes we will be spiritually restored and with God in heaven, but there also is a physical resurrection and physical presence in heaven.

But back to the evidence of physical death being a consequence of sin...how did the Father load the sins of the world on His Son?
By the physical death on the cross.

Death was defeated by a spiritual perfect being suffering the consequences of sin by shedding His blood.

It makes absolutely no sense theologically to claim that mortality/physical death was part of creation before sin.
All through scripture it is made very clear that God demands the shedding of blood as atonement for sin.
Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. (Hebrews 9:22)

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)
There is a direct comparison between the spiritual AND physical death as a consequence of sin vs the spiritual AND physical resurrection.
Once again, if the wages of sin would only be spiritual death, then the resurrection of our physical bodies would not be necessary.

It therefore is bad logic to say that there was physical death in the Garden of Eden before there was sin.
It would mean that the wages of sin were applied to creation before sin was in the world.

4WD you need to read this! This may help you coming from someone besides me.

Offline RB

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1682 on: Tue Sep 04, 2018 - 04:32:46 »
Lastly, if their physical deaths should in some way be equated with their being sinners and condemned, then shouldn't the physical deaths of all be viewed the same way? If not, then it has to be admitted that some people experience physical death and it is not due to their being condemned by God as sinners
Yes, because it is true. What God has not shown to us is this~how many of infants and young children up to 19 years old (good number because that's WHERE God divided age groups...Leviticus 27:1-7...a month old to five...INFANTS; five years old to 20~ young children; 20 to 60...youth; above 60, the starting point for old age) is old age that has died did so as an elect child of God~ the numbers could be thousands of millions upon millions.
Quote from: soterion Reply #1663 on: Yesterday at 11:43:30
If that is true, then just apply that thought to all babies. Since babies are not guilty and condemned, and since their physical deaths are not a reflection of their spiritual state, then another reason has to be sought for why they are killed, even by God.
You keep saying babies~just what do you consider babies? My grandchildren ranging from a month old to early twenties are all my babies, because they are still so young...but I understand there must be an age where we know them to no longer be babies~is six that point? Where God's word places it? Since they are leaving being babies and are entering into being young children even though not far removed from being a baby. My point is this: There is not a lot of differences between one that is 6 years old and a ten years old~ BOTH are young children; there is NOT much difference between a 10-year-old and a fourteen years old... BOTH are young children. So your point of babies is almost meaningless.
Quote from: soterion Reply #1663 on: Yesterday at 11:43:30
Since babies are not guilty and condemned
You are so wrong~all of the generation of Adam's posterity are guilty of his sin, all without an exception.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 5:14~"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."
We have given a commentary on this one verse more than once in the last couple of months or so.
Quote from: soterion  Reply #1663 on: Yesterday at 11:43:30
then another reason has to be sought for why they are killed, even by God.
There is not another~God through Paul has plainly spoken yet you receive not Paul's testimony/teaching....you will be seeking in vain for sure and when you think you have found it, it will be a lie and that's more sure.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1682 on: Tue Sep 04, 2018 - 04:32:46 »

Offline RB

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1683 on: Tue Sep 04, 2018 - 04:52:32 »
You are going off the deep end. The whole crux of the conversation was that if a child dies he goes straight to hell because of Adam's sin. You calvinists just cant stay on topic.

Again, the crux of the conversation is not suffering, it is going to hell because of Adam's sin....stay on topic.
Well now, who has a hard time with understanding scriptures, I think I know. Stop calling people Calvinist until you learn what a Calvinist is, which so far you have never demonstrated that you know, you only think you know.

Also, you sir, do not even understand simple theology. It NOT people going to hell~which term you and others know very little about by reading your posts. The scriptures teach that ALL men through Adam are under condemantion of the second death, which is the lake of fire, where the wicked shall perish FOREVER. There is 'NO" such doctrine of a burning hell NOW where the wicked go at death (by your doctrine) only to be brought out AGAIN to be judged and cast BACK INTO AGAIN. When the wicked died they go into darkness and silence WAITING THERE for the judgment of the last day. Get your doctrine straight before speaking, you just might be shamed. 
« Last Edit: Tue Sep 04, 2018 - 04:56:00 by RB »

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1683 on: Tue Sep 04, 2018 - 04:52:32 »
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Offline RB

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1684 on: Tue Sep 04, 2018 - 05:25:10 »
RB's post (#1625), he directly impies it because that is what calvin taught.
You are back to your old tricks of accusing me saying something I never said. I ONLY said that death reign over all, including infants~that does translate into "that a child goes straight to hell because of Adam's sin." Many of them could have been part of the election of grace, that is never told to us either way, but FOR SURE there are infants that have died as such that was. These things are hidden in God's will. You added
Quote from: SwordMaster  Reply #1678 on: Yesterday at 23:47:52
it because that is what calvin taught.
You know SwordMaster, I read very little about Calvin on this point and what I have read it was many years ago, and much I have forgotten, I would have to go back and refresh my memory of what he did teach concerning these things. I lean toward the Anabaptist MUCH more than Clavin, but only the ones in around 1650 thereabout~a hundred years after Calvin. There was men way before Calvin that taught the doctrine of grace, he was just more vocal and much more gifted than many before him, including Martin Luther. When did your Pentecostal group arrived in the religious arena? Need help?
Quote from: SwordMaster  Reply #1678 on: Yesterday at 23:47:52
That is an interesting twist...the sacrifice of Christ (the atonement in Christ) is not applied to anyone who is not abiding in Him.
Well you must define what you mean by "who is not abiding in Him" because MOST are on different levels of abiding in Christ in a practical manner. No two are on the same spiritual level, so what does that mean for righteous people like "Lot" let us say? Abraham and Lot were NOT on the same level of spirituality yet BOTH to the same degree were righteous before God legally speaking, practically NO they were not. Paul and saints in the churches he went to, were NOT on the same level of righteousness practically speaking...legally they were. Your work gospel stinks to high heaven and takes away from Jesus' righteousness that he secured for his people.  Enough said to you.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1684 on: Tue Sep 04, 2018 - 05:25:10 »



Offline RB

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1685 on: Tue Sep 04, 2018 - 05:31:15 »
I assumed you mean definitely.....which is a very common mistake by many and I'm of the many.  Well now, then are you saying that a natural man can understand and submit to the word of God? That's not scriptural. I will withhold proof for now just in case you want to clarify any point.Where I asked: Okay, good, then are you saying that God first must give them eyes to see~or how do you suggest that the blind can see apart from the power of God to those who are spiritual blinded? Which #3 asked So are you saying that God has shown the truth to ALL men equally~and/or God does not need to show man his truth man and man can figure this out on his own~which is it. If God has not shown his truth to all equally is this fair based on your theology~if yes, then please explain.  Which asked...Well okay, then why do SOME believe and others do not but cling fast to their precious golden calf? Who makes the difference between the two? That one comes to believe while others mocked and fight the truth?  where we asked....Well, then you SHOULD consider it well, it just might lead you to the truth! If a man is at enmity against God, and he is then ONLY God's power can break that enmity against God and ONLY God's grace could be the MOVING CAUSE as to why those at enmity can become adopted into God's family.
Yogi, please address this post. Reply #1652 on: Yesterday at 06:30:17

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1685 on: Tue Sep 04, 2018 - 05:31:15 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1686 on: Tue Sep 04, 2018 - 07:11:19 »
4WD you need to read this! This may help you coming from someone besides me.
Seriously RB, I would tend to give heed to you before I would to AVZ.  You carry more weight with me than does AVZ.  But no matter; I have read the same nonsense from a number of very prominent writers in the Reformed Theology camp. But I will say that others besides Calvinists hold erroneously to physical death being a product of Adam's sin.

And AVZ's appeal to Romans 6:23 is ridiculous.  The comparison there is not between physical death and spiritual life.  It is OBVIOUSLY a comparison between spiritual death and spiritual life.  The whole of the sixth chapter of Romans is dealing specifically with the conversion from spiritual death to spiritual life.  The last verse clearly retains that thesis with no hint whatsoever of speaking about physical death.  And for what it is worth that same thesis is carried on into the seventh chapter.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1687 on: Tue Sep 04, 2018 - 07:14:38 »
We have given a commentary on this one verse more than once in the last couple of months or so.
Yes and wrong each time.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1688 on: Tue Sep 04, 2018 - 07:28:58 »
My point is this: There is not a lot of differences between one that is 6 years old and a ten years old~ BOTH are young children; there is NOT much difference between a 10-year-old and a fourteen years old... BOTH are young children. So your point of babies is almost meaningless.
But there is a HUGE difference between a one or two year old and a six year old.  Surely you as a parent recognized, even if after the fact, the time that you can begin to speak rationally to your child.  The point in time that he begins to understand.  The age or time of self awareness and comprehension, the cognitive stages of childhood development, is well known within the field of psychology.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1688 on: Tue Sep 04, 2018 - 07:28:58 »

Offline Thaddaeus

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1689 on: Tue Sep 04, 2018 - 11:23:29 »
Never said it did.


Which makes your original statement false. Christ is not saving you.  You will find nothing in scripture that states Christ saved you from spiritual death.

Offline SwordMaster

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1690 on: Tue Sep 04, 2018 - 20:12:10 »
I just read post #1625 and I dont see RB claiming anywhere that children will go to hell.
With regards to what Calvin teaches...you are misinformed because Calvin never made such a claim.

Then it is quite plain that you either have little reading comprehension, or you side with Red in his assertions.


Quote
Lets say in the last 7 days, how many times have you sinned and not remained?
You, similar to the child, do not deserve heaven. Not even with your continuously failing "abiding". And yet heaven is where you will go.
So tell me what great thing did you do that makes you deserve heaven?

As I stated before, you are not as astute in the Scriptures as you claim to be. One does not cease to remain abiding in Christ just because he sins. Try reading I John again, and this time pay intensive attention to what he is saying.


Offline SwordMaster

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1691 on: Tue Sep 04, 2018 - 20:18:31 »
Well now, who has a hard time with understanding scriptures, I think I know. Stop calling people Calvinist until you learn what a Calvinist is, which so far you have never demonstrated that you know, you only think you know.

Red, unless you changed your stripes in the last 6 months, you are still one of Pink's followers, and that is the very thing that we have discussed in the past - the false doctrine of going to hell because of Adam's sins, not your own - in which you follow Pink's nonsense of infants going to hell when they die because the deserve hell from conception.

Again...unless you have come to your senses and now reject Pink's (and other calvinist's) assertions to the same.

Quote
Also, you sir, do not even understand simple theology. It NOT people going to hell~which term you and others know very little about by reading your posts. The scriptures teach that ALL men through Adam are under condemantion of the second death, which is the lake of fire, where the wicked shall perish FOREVER. There is 'NO" such doctrine of a burning hell NOW where the wicked go at death (by your doctrine) only to be brought out AGAIN to be judged and cast BACK INTO AGAIN. When the wicked died they go into darkness and silence WAITING THERE for the judgment of the last day. Get your doctrine straight before speaking, you just might be shamed.

Quite the contrary, Red...where did you get your theological training, from the Cracker Jack box?

In the OT the saints went into Paradise and the sinful dead went into hell; in the NT the saints close their physical eyes in this world and open them in the very Presence of God, while those who die in their sins go directly to hell. Jesus even used these truths in His parable about the rich man and Lazarus...or do you deny that...


Offline SwordMaster

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1692 on: Tue Sep 04, 2018 - 20:48:49 »
You are back to your old tricks of accusing me saying something I never said. I ONLY said that death reign over all, including infants~that does translate into "that a child goes straight to hell because of Adam's sin." Many of them could have been part of the election of grace, that is never told to us either way, but FOR SURE there are infants that have died as such that was.

Your argument is all wet because your assumptions of what is and what is not is all wet. No where in Scripture are we told, ever, that God chose before time who would go to heaven and who goes to hell. That is man-made false teachings straight from calvin himself. Saying that "many of them could have been part of the election of grace" doesn't help your case when we stick to Scripture. Since Scripture doesn't say that one is chosen for heaven and one is chosen for hell, your grace comment falls flat on its face.

Quote
These things are hidden in God's will. You added You know SwordMaster, I read very little about Calvin on this point and what I have read it was many years ago, and much I have forgotten, I would have to go back and refresh my memory of what he did teach concerning these things. I lean toward the Anabaptist MUCH more than Clavin, but only the ones in around 1650 thereabout~a hundred years after Calvin. There was men way before Calvin that taught the doctrine of grace, he was just more vocal and much more gifted than many before him, including Martin Luther.

There's a topic for you to start another thread on, Red...exactly what is "the doctrine of grace" that you refer to? What does that doctrine tell you? Because I guarantee you that your doctrine of grace does not line up with the Scripture's doctrine of grace.

Quote
When did your Pentecostal group arrived in the religious arena?

When God began bringing the church closer and closer to the truth of the Gospel, that's when. In the 1870's with such greats as Smith Wigglesworth.

Quote
Need help? Well you must define what you mean by "who is not abiding in Him" because MOST are on different levels of abiding in Christ in a practical manner. No two are on the same spiritual level, so what does that mean for righteous people like "Lot" let us say? Abraham and Lot were NOT on the same level of spirituality yet BOTH to the same degree were righteous before God legally speaking, practically NO they were not. Paul and saints in the churches he went to, were NOT on the same level of righteousness practically speaking...legally they were.

You are trying to make yourself sound like you know what you are talking about, but instead you are seen as chasing your tail. There is no levels of abiding in Christ, you either are or you are not. Its very simple, since abiding in Christ is NT language for being in covenant relationship with God in Christ - and that makes it a legal thing.

You either strive with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength to walk in obedience to God, thereby loving on Him...or you don't, you rely upon "the cross" as you put it...and you will be sorry some day. I say the same to you that I said to AVZ, you are not as astute in the Scriptures as you like to think that you are. As long as one is striving to walk in obedience to God from the heart, then one is in covenant with Him in Christ, even when one falls to a temptation and sins.

In Christ we may sin physically, but God sees us as righteous because we are striving for righteousness. This is what the Spirit says through John in I John, the one abiding in Christ does not sin (positionally), and if he does sin (Romans 7-8:14) it is not counted against him because God has already judged and condemned the sin in the flesh that causes him to sin according to the sin nature. The sin nature is already dead in the lives of those who are abiding in Christ, which is why there is no more condemnation to them - even when they sin.

Quote
Your work gospel stinks to high heaven and takes away from Jesus' righteousness that he secured for his people.
 

The problem there, Red, is that you again don't understand the plain teaching of Scripture. Loving on God is not a "work." It is only a work in false doctrines where the grace of God is perverted to the point of being the all-in-all. How do we love on God, Red? Scripture says that we love on Him by walking in obedience to His commandments of the New Covenant. Call that works all you want to, but it just demonstrates that you have been duped into believing false doctrines, and I highly recommend that you get out of such nonsense before it takes you somewhere you don't want to go.

Quote
Enough said to you.

Getting a little nasty, are we?








Offline soterion

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1693 on: Tue Sep 04, 2018 - 22:37:29 »

We have given a commentary on this one verse more than once in the last couple of months or so.


And you have received responses to show a different point of view that lines up better with scripture.

Quote

There is not another~God through Paul has plainly spoken yet you receive not Paul's testimony/teaching....you will be seeking in vain for sure and when you think you have found it, it will be a lie and that's more sure.

Okay...I said this to AVZ:

Since babies are not guilty and condemned, and since their physical deaths are not a reflection of their spiritual state, then another reason has to be sought for why they are killed, even by God.

Your response is that there is not another reason why babies (infants, the smallest ones, etc.) are killed except as a reflection of their spiritual state as guilty sinners condemned by God.

So, all babies killed by whatever means and by whomever are getting what they deserve? I'm not being facetious or snide, I'm seriously asking what you believe.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1694 on: Thu Sep 06, 2018 - 10:14:33 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Sun Sep 02, 2018 - 13:17:05
Those who are in Christ still will die physically, but that does not mean that before Adam's fall, that death already reigns over his physical body, and for that matter, on his posterity.

Physical death, however you may define and qualify it, is death. And concerning death, Paul said in:

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned

Through Adam, sin entered the world, where before that, sin was not. That death entered the world through sin, where before that, death was not.
Michael, You are not grasping the point that it is not repeat not talking about Physical but spiritual death that's all and as 4WD said they did die spiritually right there on the spot.

The physical came by naturally because they were cut off from the tree of life that is the only way the would have lived forever if they had eaten of that tree.

Yes spiritual death entered when Adam sinned not before and physical followed because of being blocked from the tree of life so naturally one will die as designed. Everything created on earth dies naturally and not because of Adam. The death talked about is spiritual death being cut off from God. That is what we are redeemed from renewed to.

You say that physical death came by naturally because they were cut off from the tree of life. And I suppose that is coming from your knowledge that whoever eats of the tree of life will live forever. On the other hand what scriptures says concerning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the very opposite of the tree of life, you seem to not see, as would impart death, which is the opposite of what the tree of life imparts. It must be realized that, with regards these two trees spoken of in Genesis, there is something that results from the eating of their fruit. One brings life and the other brings death. Here's something that you ought to consider:

Gen. 3:22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”.

What concern do you see in what the Lord said, but that with regards the eating of the fruit of the tree of life, which would make Adam and Eve to live forever? Now, tell me sir, is this life concerning the physical or the spiritual or both?   

Now, with regards Rom. 5:12 you say that Paul was speaking of spiritual death. Of course that is coming from you, for what it says is "death" in the general sense and not as you make it to be only in the spiritual sense.

Also, you have been talking about spiritual death. What do you really mean by "spiritual death"? When you say Adam died spiritually, what do you mean by that?

You said "That death entered the world through sin, where before that, death was not." here I assume you are trying to say physical so I would have to say prove it. Where is your scripture that says physical death was not before Adam sinned? More to the point who was there to die before Adam?

So unless the animals and plant life was cursed to death with Adam nature was going to pass and so would have man with out the tree of life so Adam caused man to die because he was cut from the tree that would have given him eternal life but that is not what Paul was talking about Paul was talking about spiritual death not physical.

No, I am not at all trying to say that. 

You asked "Where is your scripture that says physical death was not before Adam sinned?"

I have already showed you Romans 5:12. The problem is that, while "death" there is spoken in a general sense, you limit it and qualify it to be in the spiritual sense.

You see, scriptures is clear. The wages of sin is death (unqualified). Death is clearly a result of sin. So that, when sin was not yet in the world, that is, before the fall of Adam, there simply is no occasion for death. Also, it is clear that death is a penalty, and that is, of sin. And with regards the man, the penalty of death, involves all that constitutes man.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1695 on: Sun Sep 09, 2018 - 12:39:12 »
I would say there is plenty evidence in scripture that the consequence of sin is not only spiritual death, but also physical death.
It is Jesus' physical death that negates sin. Jesus never died spiritually. And it is clear that the price paid for sin was paid in blood.

If death was present before the fall in Eden, it impossibly can be payment for sin.
The only consequence of sin would then be spiritual death, and Jesus would have to die spiritually in order to make satisfaction.
The whole payment however rests on the fact that a spiritually perfect being (Jesus) did take upon Him the punishment for sin (i.e. physical death).


Yes, the end of sin is death. And the wages of sin is death. And by man, that is, by Adam's offense, death came to man.

When death came to man, it reigned over man, not only over him physically, but also spiritually.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1696 on: Sun Sep 09, 2018 - 12:58:15 »
Physical death is not the wages of sin.  And we are not saved from physical death.  All die a physical death, no matter whether they are spiritually alive or spiritually dead.

Of course it is. For scriptures says that the wages of sin is death, which involves the physical and spiritual.

And 4WD, I asked this of yogi, but he had not given to date any answer. Perhaps you can.

What do you really mean by "spiritual death"? When you say Adam died spiritually, what do you mean by that?

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1697 on: Sun Sep 09, 2018 - 14:19:03 »
Ephesians 2:1

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1698 on: Sun Sep 09, 2018 - 15:10:15 »
Of course it is. For scriptures says that the wages of sin is death, which involves the physical and spiritual.

And 4WD, I asked this of yogi, but he had not given to date any answer. Perhaps you can.

What do you really mean by "spiritual death"? When you say Adam died spiritually, what do you mean by that?
Oh I am sorry Michael I got busy and forgot about this so to answer you I will have to s=give the same answer as 4WD gave Ephesians 2:1

Offline Thaddaeus

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1699 on: Sun Sep 09, 2018 - 18:22:08 »
4WD,

Quote
Ephesians 2:1
Even if it was correct, it does not actually describe "spiritual death".  If you thilnk it does then you would also need to hold to "once saved, always saved" since Paul in verse 5 uses the past tense, "saved by grace" for those that are addressed in verse 1.  Thus it negates all the rest of scripture when it states that we need to believe, we need to be baptised, to live a patterned life after Christ in order to attain eternal life and overcome spiritual death.

This is probably why you think that you are being saved from spiritual death by Christ. As I stated befiore, no place in scripture does it ever say that Christ alone, unilaterally saved you from spiritual death.   

The fact you have not defined "spiritual death" is telling.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1700 on: Sun Sep 09, 2018 - 20:38:10 »
The fact that you do not know even what being saved is is telling.  That you would even think to comment on "spiritual death" is all rather ironic.  Of everyone here, you are about the last person who might speak authoritatively on either spiritual death or spiritual life.  You are out in left field in the whole matter.

Offline Thaddaeus

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1701 on: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 07:33:31 »
4WD,

Quote
he fact that you do not know even what being saved is is telling.  That you would even think to comment on "spiritual death" is all rather ironic.  Of everyone here, you are about the last person who might speak authoritatively on either spiritual death or spiritual life.  You are out in left field in the whole matter.

Yet you cannot even give a definition to enlighten me.  You resort to empty rhetoric and ad hominems.  Very typical.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1702 on: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 07:55:10 »
Ephesians 2:1.  It is a shame you haven't a clue of what Paul is speaking about.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1703 on: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 08:57:21 »
Quote
Quote from: 4WD on Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 08:15:06
Physical death is not the wages of sin.  And we are not saved from physical death.  All die a physical death, no matter whether they are spiritually alive or spiritually dead.

Quote
Of course it is. For scriptures says that the wages of sin is death, which involves the physical and spiritual.

And 4WD, I asked this of yogi, but he had not given to date any answer. Perhaps you can.

What do you really mean by "spiritual death"? When you say Adam died spiritually, what do you mean by that?

Ephesians 2:1

First, by not refuting what I said about "death", being the wages of sin, as involving the physical and spiritual, does it mean that you now accept such truth?

On my question, "What do you really mean by "spiritual death"? When you say Adam died spiritually, what do you mean by that?", in which your answer is:

Ephesians 2: 1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

It would be good if you explain how that answers the question. You have been using the phrase "spiritual death", so I wanted to know what you mean by that.

And by my reading of some of your posts in this thread, you apparently were suggesting that when Adam sinned, the death he died is spiritual death. Can you tell me what made you say that Adam spiritually died?

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1704 on: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 09:34:10 »
Do you think that when Paul in Ephesians 2:1 spoke of being dead in trespasses and sins that he was speaking of physically being dead?

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1705 on: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 10:10:24 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 12:58:15
Of course it is. For scriptures says that the wages of sin is death, which involves the physical and spiritual.

And 4WD, I asked this of yogi, but he had not given to date any answer. Perhaps you can.

What do you really mean by "spiritual death"? When you say Adam died spiritually, what do you mean by that?
Oh I am sorry Michael I got busy and forgot about this so to answer you I will have to s=give the same answer as 4WD gave Ephesians 2:1

No problem sir yogi.

Please see my Reply # 1703 to 4WD

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1706 on: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 10:23:58 »
Do you think that when Paul in Ephesians 2:1 spoke of being dead in trespasses and sins that he was speaking of physically being dead?

No. Now, how about you answering my questions?

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1707 on: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 10:30:54 »
Michael I really do not see what you do not understand. Spiritual death is a separation from God due to sin it is not physical I do not see how you can not know the difference. When one dies spiritually they are still physically alive but are dead to God separated till they come to God for redemption. This really does not seem to be rocket science.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1708 on: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 10:39:31 »
No. Now, how about you answering my questions?
That should be the answer to your question. As a matter of fact, almost nothing about the gospel has anything to do with physical death whatever.  Nothing about physical death changes for the lost sinner who becomes a believer.  Adam didn't die physically when he sinned or even because he sinned.  He got kicked out of the Garden when he sinned, but he lived for hundreds of years more.

Offline Thaddaeus

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1709 on: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 11:33:15 »
Yogi Bear,

Quote
Michael I really do not see what you do not understand. Spiritual death is a separation from God due to sin it is not physical I do not see how you can not know the difference. When one dies spiritually they are still physically alive but are dead to God separated till they come to God for redemption. This really does not seem to be rocket science.

You're confusing me, at least , with your use of redeemed.  We don't come to Christ to become redeemed.  All of mankind has been redeemed, the world has been redeemed by Christ through His Incarnation, death and resurrection. II Cor 5:18-19. Col 1:20-21, Heb 2:14, Rom 3:24, I Cor 15:22, II Tim 1:10, Eph 2:3-5, John 6:39 and others.


At least you have defined spiritual death.
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 11:35:24 by Thaddaeus »

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1710 on: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 14:23:32 »
Michael I really do not see what you do not understand. Spiritual death is a separation from God due to sin it is not physical I do not see how you can not know the difference. When one dies spiritually they are still physically alive but are dead to God separated till they come to God for redemption. This really does not seem to be rocket science.
Truth is much harder to see then understanding how to build a rocket to the moon and back. One only takes human wisdom~God's truth is hidden from the wise of this world and from ALL who think they are.
Quote from: Reply #1707 on: Today at 10:30:54
When one dies spiritually
All men are born dead in sins and trespasses and by nature under God's wrath~how else can you and your friends explain Ephesians 2:3, which reads thus:
Quote from: Paul
"Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."
Even the very elect were by nature ONLY, children of God's wrath~all men are born spiritually dead toward God UNLESS quickened in the womb as John the Baptist was before he even saw the light of day.
Quote from: yogi bear
till they come to God for redemption
No man can come EXCEPT God FIRST regenerates them. God's drawing IS regeneration, in spite of what you and others believe otherwise~IT IS rocket science to you folk spiritually speaking!
Quote from: Jesus Christ
John 6:44,45~No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."
This scriptures EXPLAINS what's the drawing of God:
Quote from: Jesus Christ
John 6:65~"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Your whole soteriology is man-centered that ultimately gives glory to man.
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 14:27:41 by RB »

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1711 on: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 14:54:15 »
On my question, "What do you really mean by "spiritual death"? When you say Adam died spiritually, what do you mean by that?"
Michael, it is impossible to get a straightforward answer from them concerning what constitutes spiritual death that Adam experienced the very second he sinned.

Here's what happened. They both lost God's image, of which image consisted of TRUE knowledge, understanding, wisdom and true holiness. The very second they sinned, they became at enmity against God. The very second they sinned they lost the strength, (spiritually) desire, to please God, They lost ALL ability (spiritually speaking) to be in subjection to God, The very second they sinned, they became children of disobedience, servants to sin and the devil himself. The very second they sinned, they became the devils captive servants, and the devil they would serve, UNTIL God came to them to deliver them from Satan. The very second they sinned, they lost the fear of God, and sin took control of their thoughts and actions. The very second they sinned the infirmities of physical death begin to work in their members. On and on we could go.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1712 on: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 14:54:35 »
Yogi Bear,

You're confusing me, at least , with your use of redeemed.  We don't come to Christ to become redeemed.  All of mankind has been redeemed, the world has been redeemed by Christ through His Incarnation, death and resurrection. II Cor 5:18-19. Col 1:20-21, Heb 2:14, Rom 3:24, I Cor 15:22, II Tim 1:10, Eph 2:3-5, John 6:39 and others.


At least you have defined spiritual death.
Ok Thaddaeus yes while it is true that the redemption was for every man yet not all will come to be saved unless they obey the gospel call.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1713 on: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 14:58:41 »
All men are born dead in sins and trespasses and by nature under God's wrath
Which means of course that God formed a dead spirit in all men:
 
Thus declares the LORD, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him...(Zech 12:1)

 .....and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it (Eccl 12:7).


So if you really need to attribute such viciousness and cruelty to God to make your soteriology work, then it is a sorry day for you and the rest of the Reformed Theology types.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1714 on: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 15:00:49 »
Ok Thaddaeus yes while it is true that the redemption was for every man yet not all will come to be saved unless they obey the gospel call.
That's is so wrong! IF Christ paid the ransom for ALL men, then God's justice would free all men. Has anyone ever heard of the law of DOUBLE JEOPARDY? Of course, you have, but no one would dare mention this law for it would expose their great error. If man has this law, then KNOW that God is MORE righteous than man!  Would he demand payment TWICE? 

The Double Jeopardy clause in the Fifth Amendment to the U. S. Constitution provides that "No person shall ... be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb." Most states have the same guarantee for defendants appearing in state court. Even in states that do not expressly guarantee this right in their state constitutions, the doctrine of incorporation ensures that the Bill of Rights applies to state and local governments, therefore the protection against double jeopardy must still be afforded to criminal defendants.

« Last Edit: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 15:54:50 by RB »