Author Topic: Ephesians 2:8  (Read 52733 times)

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Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1715 on: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 16:30:22 »
That's is so wrong! IF Christ paid the ransom for ALL men, then God's justice would free all men. Has anyone ever heard of the law of DOUBLE JEOPARDY? Of course, you have, but no one would dare mention this law for it would expose their great error. If man has this law, then KNOW that God is MORE righteous than man!  Would he demand payment TWICE? 

The Double Jeopardy clause in the Fifth Amendment to the U. S. Constitution provides that "No person shall ... be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb." Most states have the same guarantee for defendants appearing in state court. Even in states that do not expressly guarantee this right in their state constitutions, the doctrine of incorporation ensures that the Bill of Rights applies to state and local governments, therefore the protection against double jeopardy must still be afforded to criminal defendants.
Double jeopardy has nothing to do with either redemption or salvation.   

Your daughter gets kidnapped and the kidnappers demand a ransom, i.e., you can redeem your daughter with payment of the ransom.  You pay the ransom; you daughter has been redeemed.  But now she has decided she likes the kidnapper more than she likes you and stays with him.  You paid the ransom, you redeemed your daughter.  She refuses to accept that offer.

Jesus paid the ransom for the whole world.  He has redeemed every sinner in the world -- past, present and future.  Some of the redeemed accept and return to God.  Some decided they like where they are and do not.

Offline Thaddaeus

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1716 on: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 16:41:56 »
Yogi Bear,

Quote
Ok Thaddaeus yes while it is true that the redemption was for every man yet not all will come to be saved unless they obey the gospel call.
No, why do you change the meaning of words.  It says has redeemed. There is no potential of some future event that will complete what Christ accomplished for mankind. All mankind has been saved, past tense from death.  It is because we have been redeemed that we can even have a relationship with God through faith. Read I Cor 15:22.  It is NOT addressing spiritual death or spiritual life.  In fact ones spiritual life is worthless unless Christ is risen from the dead so that all shall be raised from the dead - I Cor 15:17-18. This is clearly stated in the cause, condemnation of death to all men, Rom 5:12, the solution from that death by life to all men in verse 18. It is addressing physical death and physial life to all men, to our human natures. 
This is also what John 6:39 is stating and completes the reason for redemption to all men in Col 1:20. It is the whole purpose of the Incarnation.



Offline Thaddaeus

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1717 on: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 16:45:46 »
RB,

Quote
The very second they sinned the infirmities of physical death begin to work in their members. On and on we could go.
I don't remember ever agreeing with you, but this statement is absolutely the truth. How come the rest of your theology does not recognize this truth?

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1717 on: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 16:45:46 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1718 on: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 16:49:30 »
RB,
 I don't remember ever agreeing with you, but this statement is absolutely the truth. How come the rest of your theology does not recognize this truth?
And to whom did God give such power over His creation?  The answer of course is that He gave such power to no one.  It didn't happen.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1718 on: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 16:49:30 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline Thaddaeus

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1719 on: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 17:01:41 »
RB,

Quote
That's is so wrong! IF Christ paid the ransom for ALL men, then God's justice would free all men. Has anyone ever heard of the law of DOUBLE JEOPARDY? Of course, you have, but no one would dare mention this law for it would expose their great error. If man has this law, then KNOW that God is MORE righteous than man!  Would he demand payment TWICE? 
I keew it was to good to be true. I compliment you then you espose a theology that denies the very statment that was correct.


You think that there is double jepardy because you don't understand what Adam did to all of mankind that Christ needed to correct.  That is summed up in I Cor 15:22.  You provide nothing for man to overcome physical death.  You leave most of mankind  to nothing more than dust. Once man has an eternal existence again, then man can respond meaningfully to God' s call to come to Him.  Your theology denies hell because no one can ever be assigned to hell unless you believe hell is nothing more than piles of dust of former human beings. This is what John 6:39 states very clearly as does I Cor 15:53.  Your theology cribbles Christ, makes Him powerless to defeat Satan, death and sin.  It denies your relationship with Him which would have no eternal meaning. I Cor 15:17-18.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1719 on: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 17:01:41 »



Offline Thaddaeus

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1720 on: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 17:08:48 »
And to whom did God give such power over His creation?  The answer of course is that He gave such power to no one.  It didn't happen.
Your Bible knowledge is faulty. Read Heb 2:14-16, I John 3:8 as well. I Cor 15:54-56.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1720 on: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 17:08:48 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1721 on: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 17:10:11 »
Michael I really do not see what you do not understand. Spiritual death is a separation from God due to sin it is not physical I do not see how you can not know the difference. When one dies spiritually they are still physically alive but are dead to God separated till they come to God for redemption. This really does not seem to be rocket science.

I just wanted to know what you mean by "spiritually dead or spiritual death" so I can better understand what you, in your case, and also 4WD, meant by it.

Now, having defined what spiritual death is for you, I want you to consider the following, concerning Adam. When Adam and Eve sinned, how were they spiritually dead after?

Offline SwordMaster

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1722 on: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 17:46:51 »
Throughout Scripture, spiritual life is defined as being in relationship with God, and spiritual death is separation from God.

When one walks in obedience to God then he is in relationship with God (barring some details), and if a person is not walking in obedience to God then he has separated himself from the life of God.

That is the Scriptural definition of those two terms, regardless of what people might think on their own.

Blessings!


Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1723 on: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 19:24:25 »
Your Bible knowledge is faulty. Read Heb 2:14-16, I John 3:8 as well. I Cor 15:54-56.
Thaddaeus, you are about the last person around here that I would accept the accusation of faulty knowledge.  Perhaps I will come back tomorrow and show you what is wrong with your knowledge for each of those passages.

In the meantime you should do a little study on what are the "works of the devil" referred to in 1 John 3:8  that Jesus' coming was to destroy,  I'll give you a hint.  It had little to do with physical death; in fact no direct connection whatsoever.

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1723 on: Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 19:24:25 »

Offline Thaddaeus

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1724 on: Tue Sep 11, 2018 - 11:33:11 »
4WD,

Quote
Thaddaeus, you are about the last person around here that I would accept the accusation of faulty knowledge.  Perhaps I will come back tomorrow and show you what is wrong with your knowledge for each of those passages.

In the meantime you should do a little study on what are the "works of the devil" referred to in 1 John 3:8  that Jesus' coming was to destroy,  I'll give you a hint.  It had little to do with physical death; in fact no direct connection whatsoever.

I'm not holding my breath.  You have never given any evidence of your views. Only opinion and blind assertions.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1725 on: Tue Sep 11, 2018 - 12:00:43 »
I'm not holding my breath.  You have never given any evidence of your views. Only opinion and blind assertions.
I have given you all manner of biblical evidence.  But you do not read and comprehend what I write any more than you read and comprehend the Bible.  Your EO theology is strictly bonkers and it, like Calvinism, blinds its adherents to the truth of the Gospel.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1726 on: Tue Sep 11, 2018 - 12:38:54 »
When the people were baptized UNTO Moses as their leader, they were SAVED and the enemy or Egypt was DEAD. God gave Manna (Not Moses says Jesus) and fed them Spiritually and Physically.  They rejected The Book of the Covenant based on Grace and God gave them The Book of the Law BECAUSE of Transgression.  Moses said that they would not be able to READ or HEAR the Word until God sent A PROPHET LIKE ME.  Again, Jesus offered SPIRITUAL life:

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
      but according to his mercy he saved us,
      by the washing [baptism] of REgeneration,
      and renewing of the Holy Spirit (ours);
 
      Heb. 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
           which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all,
           and to the SPIRITS of just men made PERFECT

      Col. 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, 
              skotos from skia darkness of error or an adumbration:
              THE pattern now used by PATTERNISTS.

         and hath TRANSLATED us into the KINGDOM of his dear SON:
              [Can't buy it, see it, smell it, hear it or feel it]
     
Col. 1:14 IN whom we have redemption through his blood,
             even the forgiveness of sins:
       Col. 1:15 Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God,
             the FIRSTBORN of every creature:

A Christian is a Disciple, is a Disciple, is a Student of That which is written for our learning.  All additions are defacto visible and audible times called SACRED VIOLENCE or silencing the voice of the victim.

1Cor. 10: Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be IGNORANT,
        how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

All of the defecto universities focused one Summer's CHURCH COUNCIL on Exodus and did the EXODUS PLAY thing in order to collect the butterflies.

1Cor. 10:2 And were all BAPTIZED unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; [whelmed, hidden]
1Cor. 10:3 And did all eat the same SPIRITUAL MEAT;
1Cor. 10:4 And did all drink the same SPIRITUAL drink:
        for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them:
        and that Rock was Christ. [not Jesus]

        Jesus said my WORDS are SPIRIT and they are LIFE: the Word, Logos, Regulative principle.

 1Cor. 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased:
        for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1Cor. 10:6  Now these things were our EXAMPLES,  [PATTERN]
        to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Cor. 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them;
        as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink,
        and rose up to PLAY.

Paizō pais  I. properly, to play like a child, to sport,  alla pepaistai metriōs hēmin, of the chorus, Ar. Th.1227.  4. play on a musical instrument, h.Ap.206: c. acc., “Pan ho kalamophthogga paizōn”   dance and sing, Pi. O.1.16.

    Aristoph. Frogs 225
    Rightly so, you busybody.  2.  Timothy 3:6
    the Muses of the fine lyre love us
    And so does horn-crested Pan, playing his reed pipe.
    And the harpist Apollon delights in us as well,
    On account of the reed, which as a bridge for his lyre

    Apollōn , ho, Apollo: Abaddon, Apollyon The name of a NUMBER
    phorm-iktēs , ou, Dor. phorm-miktas , ho, A. lyre-player, of Orpheus, Pi.P.4.176
    phorm-iktos , ē, on, A. sung TO the phormigx, kai peza kai ph. (sc. melē) S.Fr.16.

The word for MUSICAL MELODY NEVER APPEARS IN THE BIBLE.

    Melos , eos, to, 2. music to which a song is set, tune, Arist.Po.1450a14;
    3. melody of an instrument, “phormigx d' au phtheggoith' hieron m. ēde kai aulos” ; “aulōn pamphōnon m.” Pi.P.12.19;

5.  play amorously, “pros allēlous” X.Smp.9.2;
II. est, sport, Hdt.2.28, 5.4, 9.11; make fun with a person [MOCK],

Offline Thaddaeus

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1727 on: Tue Sep 11, 2018 - 12:47:44 »
4WD,

Quote
I have given you all manner of biblical evidence.  But you do not read and comprehend what I write any more than you read and comprehend the Bible.  Your EO theology is strictly bonkers and it, like Calvinism, blinds its adherents to the truth of the Gospel.
You have given your opinion which differs from hundreds of other personal opinions.Everything should be bonkers respective of your personal opinion. Nothing unusual about that.  The fact remains you have no evidence to corroborate your opinion.  It is a one man's gospel competing with hundreds of others.  Hardly a unified gospel promised by the Holy Spirit. But then it has never been about what the Bible means, but what you interpret it to mean.

Your personal interpretation is far from the Truth of the Gospel.  If it was the Truth you would have no trouble having evidence.  Atter all, the Revelation given to the Apostles has existed for 2000 years and has been preserved.  It does not exist for anyone to develop their own personal idealogy from it.

But, carry on.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1728 on: Tue Sep 11, 2018 - 16:29:55 »
The fact remains you have no evidence to corroborate your opinion. 
And your evidence is what or whom?  Perhaps Constantine?  Perhaps Augustine?  Perhaps Zwingly?  Or perhaps some other bunch of misguided ancients.  Your opinion to follow such misguided religiosity devotees is no better than another's.  You think numbers justify your opinions?  You had better look around.  There are numbers in some religious sects far greater than yours who would disagree with you. Whose evidence then?  Yours or theirs?  Shoot even Buddhism or Hinduism has you beat in the numbers game or the history.

Offline Thaddaeus

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1729 on: Tue Sep 11, 2018 - 21:20:53 »
And your evidence is what or whom?  Perhaps Constantine?  Perhaps Augustine?  Perhaps Zwingly?  Or perhaps some other bunch of misguided ancients.  Your opinion to follow such misguided religiosity devotees is no better than another's.  You think numbers justify your opinions?  You had better look around.  There are numbers in some religious sects far greater than yours who would disagree with you. Whose evidence then?  Yours or theirs?  Shoot even Buddhism or Hinduism has you beat in the numbers game or the history.
It's all a matter of actually believing. Believing what the Holy Spirit has given to us and has worked through The Body of Christ, His Church, not me, not some man, or even some men. They always end up being incorrect.  Just look around you.  History is full of men, like you, who thought they knew better than the Holy Spirit and everyone was incorrect, without exception.

The adage they gave us and is still relevant to today is: What is not from the beginning, has not been understood by all, in all places is  false.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1730 on: Wed Sep 12, 2018 - 06:08:32 »
It's all a matter of actually believing. Believing what the Holy Spirit has given to us and has worked through The Body of Christ, His Church, not me, not some man, or even some men. They always end up being incorrect.  Just look around you.  History is full of men, like you, who thought they knew better than the Holy Spirit and everyone was incorrect, without exception.

The adage they gave us and is still relevant to today is: What is not from the beginning, has not been understood by all, in all places is  false.
And there you have it folks.  He doesn't understand even what the church is.  And with that I will leave him to his own delusions.

Offline Thaddaeus

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1731 on: Wed Sep 12, 2018 - 11:23:28 »
And there you have it folks.  He doesn't understand even what the church is.  And with that I will leave him to his own delusions.
You are quite humorous. You have no evidence, no facts, so as any relativist you need to resort to ad hominems.  Sounds so much like the political left these days. 

Offline 4WD

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1732 on: Wed Sep 12, 2018 - 11:28:36 »
You have no evidence, no facts,
I have God's word; something you seem to be incapable of handling.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1733 on: Sun Sep 16, 2018 - 00:40:57 »
Throughout Scripture, spiritual life is defined as being in relationship with God, and spiritual death is separation from God.

When one walks in obedience to God then he is in relationship with God (barring some details), and if a person is not walking in obedience to God then he has separated himself from the life of God.

That is the Scriptural definition of those two terms, regardless of what people might think on their own.

Blessings!

For one to have life, is to have Him who is the LIFE. Else, he can have no life and has no life in him.

JESUS CHRIST is the LIFE

John 1:10-13
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.

Comment: They who did not receive Him does not have Him. They are therefore without life. And with regards having relationship with God, they do have. Only that it is that of enmity.

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Comment: They who received Him were given the right to become children of God. Obviously, the relationship spoken is that between Father and children. The children are those who believe in His name, them who were born of God.   

It is only those born of God who have life. And it is only them who can have every good kind of relationship with God, even that of being His children.   

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1734 on: Sun Sep 16, 2018 - 00:48:47 »
Quote
Quote from: yogi bear on Mon Sep 10, 2018 - 10:30:54
Michael I really do not see what you do not understand. Spiritual death is a separation from God due to sin it is not physical I do not see how you can not know the difference. When one dies spiritually they are still physically alive but are dead to God separated till they come to God for redemption. This really does not seem to be rocket science.
I just wanted to know what you mean by "spiritually dead or spiritual death" so I can better understand what you, in your case, and also 4WD, meant by it.

Now, having defined what spiritual death is for you, I want you to consider the following, concerning Adam. When Adam and Eve sinned, how were they spiritually dead after?


Up for Sir yogi.

And to 4WD as well, perhaps.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1735 on: Sun Sep 16, 2018 - 01:58:45 »
Quote
Quote from: 4WD on Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 08:15:06
Physical death is not the wages of sin.  And we are not saved from physical death.  All die a physical death, no matter whether they are spiritually alive or spiritually dead.
Quote
Quote: Michael
Of course it is. For scriptures says that the wages of sin is death, which involves the physical and spiritual.

And 4WD, I asked this of yogi, but he had not given to date any answer. Perhaps you can.

What do you really mean by "spiritual death"? When you say Adam died spiritually, what do you mean by that?
Quote
quote: 4WD
Ephesians 2:1


First, by not refuting what I said about "death", being the wages of sin, as involving the physical and spiritual, does it mean that you now accept such truth?

On my question, "What do you really mean by "spiritual death"? When you say Adam died spiritually, what do you mean by that?", in which your answer is:

Ephesians 2: 1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

It would be good if you explain how that answers the question. You have been using the phrase "spiritual death", so I wanted to know what you mean by that.

And by my reading of some of your posts in this thread, you apparently were suggesting that when Adam sinned, the death he died is spiritual death. Can you tell me what made you say that Adam spiritually died?

UP for 4WD.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1736 on: Sun Sep 16, 2018 - 02:22:07 »
We suffer physically in this physical existence all the time due to the sins of others.  The person killed by a drunk driver is killed because of the sin of the drunk.  That has nothing to do with the persons soul.  Millions were killed by the actions of men like Stalin, Hitler, Mao and others just in the 20th century and it can be traced back directly to their sinfulness. Again that has nothing to do with the souls of those who died.

We are not protected against any physical problems in this life through a belief in God, in Jesus as Lord and Savior, in the gospel.  In fact, if anything Jesus promised that we are likely suffer for that belief, being killed is but one such suffering.


"We suffer physically in this physical existence all the time due to the sins of others. The person killed by a drunk driver is killed because of the sin of the drunk." I agree in the obvious sense.

"That has nothing to do with the persons soul."
But this one is obviously an speculation.

"We are not protected against any physical problems in this life through a belief in God, in Jesus as Lord and Savior, in the gospel."

Well that speaks well of your faith in God. You don't pray to God for protection against any of your physical problems, like when you are sick? Or you don't get to pray for healing for the sick brethren? 

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1737 on: Sun Sep 16, 2018 - 02:30:16 »
Quote
Quote from: AVZ on Mon Sep 03, 2018 - 07:13:59
When David sinned with Bathsheba...who died?
You demonstrate that you do not know the spirit behind the Scriptures, AVZ.

The child dying was not the child suffering spiritual death for the sins of his father, it was a physical death in punishing David for his sin. You confuse the two kinds of death, and in doing so pervert your thinking on Scripture.


On the part of the child, was his/her physical death a consequence of David's sin or a separate act of God for His purpose/s?

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Reply #1738 on: Sun Sep 16, 2018 - 05:33:23 »
And I suggest you read that quote from Ezekiel 18 again.

This "suffering for the iniquity of another" is equated with being regarded as wicked. The baby was not being regarded as wicked in God's eyes. The death of the baby was not the baby being punished as a wicked person. The baby was not being punished at all.


Ezek.18:19-20
19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.


What is clear there is that the wages of sin is death and shall be upon the sinner. The second statement tells us that neither is not punished for something he is not guilty of. But while that is said, it does not take away the truth that the wages of sin is death - a due punishment.

What death do you say is referred here? Most see this as referring to physical death, is it not? Or is it spiritual death, as some contends to be? (4WD might want to comment on this.)

Now, regarding the death of infants. Most believe that that is natural, even while scriptures clearly says of death, that it is the wages of sin, and that death entered the world through sin. Now, infants do die, which only goes to show that sin is in them, as it does in all of Adam's posterity.

Infants die because they are born of the flesh. And what flesh do they have, but that of the fallen Adam, that is, sinful flesh? Now, consider what Paul said regarding the flesh, that sin dwells in it - one of the reasons that they die and we die. And it is because of what Adam had done as recorded in Genesis, that sin had entered the world and so then did death.

The next question that is asked is: Will infants go to hell or to heaven?

Firstly, all the dead will be resurrected at the resurrection. And so then will all the infants be resurrected. Some to the resurrection of life and others to condemnation.

Secondly, all will be judged according to their works. And with that, as infants not having done any work, they are neither righteous nor wicked, in that regard. But we know that, should they have not died, they certainly would have sinned like the rest of us.

So, even while I would like to believe that they will go to heaven, I really can't say. It is God who shall determine this. And whether there will be infants that will be cast in hell, does not matter to me. For I have faith in God, that He is infinitely wise and perfectly just.

Now, those who have not died in infancy and lived, will be judged by their works. And as scriptures say that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, all will go to hell. But thanks be to God, those whose evil works are covered by the blood of Christ, had been saved and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.