Author Topic: Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:17  (Read 2957 times)

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Offline Perry from the COCN Board

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Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:17
« on: Sun Dec 22, 2002 - 15:39:46 »
Here is a thought to ponder if one uses the "not authorized" argument against IM:  If these verses are not in the context of the assembly, then what authorization do we have to sing anything other thans psalms, hymns & spiritual songs in everyday situations?

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« on: Sun Dec 22, 2002 - 15:39:46 »

Offline Berean

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« Reply #1 on: Sun Dec 22, 2002 - 20:41:02 »
Love the thread Kevin-
It has always bothered me that these verses be used in this light- I think it is clear that the verses were not written with this intent.  

It has bothered me that the church of the first three centuries did not use instruments and for that reason non-instrumental music developed the name a - cappella (of the church)  I don't know why they didn't but I can see some logic in this approach.  I do not however, see any logic in an appeal to the verses you've listed.

Offline Apollos

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« Reply #2 on: Sun Dec 22, 2002 - 23:24:19 »
Dear spurly,

A friend forwarded a book by Tom Burgess ‘DOCUMENTS ON INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC’ which contains some of the info you want to know. The content of the book is:

1. English Dictionaries
2. Greek Lexicons
3. Commentators, Encyclopedists and Grammarians
4. Professors of the Greek language
5. Translators of the Bible
6. Early Ecclesiastical & Contemporaneous Writings

Number 6 above is the chapter that you are interested in. But the entire book is an amazing effort. I am sure all will benefit from it. I will be happy to email the book to anyone interested to read it. My email add –    [a href=\"mailto:chris_ooi@hotmail.com\"]chris_ooi@hotmail.com[/a]

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« Reply #2 on: Sun Dec 22, 2002 - 23:24:19 »

Offline Perry from the COCN Board

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« Reply #3 on: Mon Dec 23, 2002 - 10:42:41 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]
I am sorry, but the whole idea of "worship service" would be foreign to the early church. We keep making our adherence to the rules, we think were established in a "service" our worship. WE are the church 24/7 and worship is 24/7. The church assembles out of love and to be with one another and fellowship. The rules of scripture were only helping out those who were NOT showing concern and love for others (the law is for lawbreakers). They were never meant to be "pattern" but a lifestyle of service to one another with Jesus as the head of the church and His sacrifice as the "example".[/quote]

How did they worship then?

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« Reply #3 on: Mon Dec 23, 2002 - 10:42:41 »

Offline spurly

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« Reply #4 on: Sun Dec 22, 2002 - 12:36:32 »
Please don't think I am trying to stir up trouble, just because I am a member of a church that uses instruments in worship.  That's not what I am trying to do, I am just trying to understand.  So here is my question.

 ??? Whenever someone who thinks that instruments should not be used in worship gives me a reason as to why, they refer to one or both of the above verses.

I was just looking at the verses, and the context in which they are found, and I don't see anything in those verses that signify that Paul was referring to times when Christians got together to worship and glorify God.

It seems to me that instead of worship, both of those passages are just giving instructions to the Christians to encourage each other with psalms, spiritual songs, and hymns. The singing and making music in your heart to the Lord does not seem to be a command for when the Christians come together, instead it seems to be a command for every day living.

How did these verses get interpreted to be referring to worship?

Just curious.

Kevin  :wave:

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« Reply #4 on: Sun Dec 22, 2002 - 12:36:32 »



Offline Arkstfan

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« Reply #5 on: Sun Dec 22, 2002 - 15:37:32 »
I have put far more hours into Ephesians 5 than Colossians 3 yet I think the two mirror each other greatly.

Ephesians 5 starts with the words of encouragement to imitate God like children imitate their parents. Colossians 3 starts with the encouragement to look to Heavenly things.

Each then dips into a listing of the things to avoid. Then each wraps up by echoing their starting verses by giving the examples of things we would do if we are taking to heart those starting verses.

I just don't see how one would take this framework for living and presume that there is a sudden unannounced shift from talking about the Christian life to talking about the Christian assembly.

The shift only makes sense if you operate from the viewpoint that singing praises and teaching are limited to the assembly.

Paul sets the bar far higher by making it part of the Christian life and not something set aside for one morning, one day a week.

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« Reply #5 on: Sun Dec 22, 2002 - 15:37:32 »

Offline jarschqua

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« Reply #6 on: Sun Dec 22, 2002 - 16:05:24 »
:)

Offline Perry from the COCN Board

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« Reply #7 on: Sun Dec 22, 2002 - 18:27:11 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]exactly what i was wondering perry!

so, how "strange" can/should we be before it's too strange? [/quote]

Whew tough question.  If I knew the answer I would write a book and retire.
I look at it from this perspective:  I don't worship with IM, although I have in the past.  Its just that with IM you can't get that harmony going among the members.  And when I am sitting really close to another brother and we are harmonizing, there is something spiritual, truly spiritual about that.  Something I have never found at a congregation that uses instruments.
As far as other innovations go, it seems as if a small group of people are always pushing for change.  And that small group never seems to be satisfied.  So I just try to keep a low profile and go about my Father's business comforting those around me that want and need comforting.

Does anyone know how I can get my picture to work in the avatar?

Offline James Rondon

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« Reply #8 on: Sun Dec 22, 2002 - 20:45:28 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Does anyone know how I can get my picture to work in the avatar?[/quote]

Hello Perry.

I can't seem to get mine to work either... I sent an email to Lee Wilson the other day, and am just waiting to hear back from him.

As far as the topic at hand, you had stated:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Here is a thought to ponder if one uses the "not authorized" argument against IM:  If these verses are not in the context of the assembly, then what authorization do we have to sing anything other thans psalms, hymns & spiritual songs in everyday situations?[/quote]

Great illustration... One would have to conclude that EVERY song that a Christian sings must be either a Psalm, Hymn, or Spiritual Song... After all, those are the only "approved" types of songs!... Everything else, whether it be "Happy Birthday", or "Camptown Races" would be "unauthorized", and therefore sinful... If not, why not?

Lauren also stated:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]If they are going to look at one subject in the Bible under the hermeneutics’ of additions (it is adding to the scriptures), the hermeneutics of exclusion (it is excluded from the scriptures) and the hermeneutics of silence (it is not in the scriptures) then they need to look at all issues of worship and life with those rules.[/quote]

Well, stated. An interesting question to ask someone that has arrived at this conclusion, is... "do you spank your children?". If they don't have kids, it's a moot point... But if they do, and they answer "yes", ask them where they get their Biblical Authority to do it... The New Covenant Scriptures speak nothing of it... It does state that Fathers are to bring up their children "in the nurture and admonition of the Lord" (Eph. 6:4). Therefore, God is SILENT when it comes to spanking... Yes there are instructions in Proverbs regarding this... But that's in the Old Testament! Thus, when applying the same hermeneutics, spanking and any form of physical discipline would be condemned... Again, if not, why not?

I agree with Perry regarding change agents... They are always with us. But is change necessarily a bad thing? It's not always good, but if we don't change at all, have we grown? If we don't change at all, are we just clinging to our man made traditions? Unfortunately, that's what most of them are...

I believe that most of the Non Instrument argument has arisen from a faulty concept of the Church... When one truly realizes that the church is the people, and that worship is not confined to a place and a time, then one will see past some of these things more clearly... As one domino falls, they all begin to fall.


James Rondon

"Wherefore be you not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is..." (Eph. 5:17)

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« Reply #8 on: Sun Dec 22, 2002 - 20:45:28 »

Offline Son of a Preacher Man

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« Reply #9 on: Sun Dec 22, 2002 - 21:01:00 »
Forgive the AKA folks.  I'm a minister in need of a measure of anonymity here.  Also, the moniker is true enuf and chalk the Dusty Springfield reference to a misspent youth.

Obviously if I need anonymity here then I am part of the crue, motley at that, where many think these verses clear up the music question and any deviation of such would result in damnable concequences.  

Regardless, I've never bought into this philosohy.  Berean suggest the only viable arguement agains IM as far as I'm concerned--historical.  To spin these verses like a dirty politician in order to make them fit persoanl theology is apalling to me in every way.

I enjoy a capella and around these parts would never suggest changing it... but the whole issue seems foolish and ludicrous to me and waste so much time and causes so much dissention.  I doubt Jesus would be pleased.

Offline spurly

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« Reply #10 on: Sun Dec 22, 2002 - 22:01:02 »
Hey everyone:

Thanks for your replies.  I am relieved, in a sense, to see that the a-capella people on this board, for the most part, don't think that Paul was referring to how to conduct a worship service in those verses.

The examples from history are interesting though.  Thanks James for the quote from Clement.

In his grace,

Kevin

Offline Berean

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« Reply #11 on: Mon Dec 23, 2002 - 08:22:52 »
I would have to agree with Clement-
Thanks for the quote James.

It should (I think) be noted that (as far as I know) the early church did not condemn the use of MI at all- as the bible has not given them, nor us this authority yet they did find great reason and wisdom in a worship that excluded such.  This fact can't be forgotten and it seems to me that this is why:

David was a physical type of the Spiritual King we have in Christ.  Jerusalem, the physical type of the city to which we belong "heavenly Jerusalem."  Physical Temple with physical sacrifices/ spiritual temple spiritual sacrifices and on and on ...

The beautiful sounds of the instruments IMHO forshadowed the beauty of our Spiritual songs that were to be lifted up.

I think that this much is clear and therefore a cappella singing would serve as a beautiful, rich, and profound reminder of the glorious spiritual nature of our kingdom - I wholeheartedly agree with what Clement says above- but focus should not be placed on his parenthasis as much as on his point.  I think that MI are not mentioned or referred to in NT scripture merely because it is so shallow an issue.  :angel:

God Bless,
Geoff

Offline seekr

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« Reply #12 on: Mon Dec 23, 2002 - 09:39:22 »
I am sorry, but the whole idea of "worship service" would be foreign to the early church. We keep making our adherence to the rules, we think were established in a "service" our worship. WE are the church 24/7 and worship is 24/7. The church assembles out of love and to be with one another and fellowship. The rules of scripture were only helping out those who were NOT showing concern and love for others (the law is for lawbreakers). They were never meant to be "pattern" but a lifestyle of service to one another with Jesus as the head of the church and His sacrifice as the "example".

seekr

Offline seekr

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« Reply #13 on: Mon Dec 23, 2002 - 10:59:22 »
Our worship is "offering our bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God". God is not looking for our performances but our willingness to be like Him and that calls for sacrifice. This is worship, along with our willingness to share what we have. That is it.

seekr

Offline James Rondon

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« Reply #14 on: Thu Jan 02, 2003 - 18:41:22 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]
seekr wrote:
finished that thought in a hurry as I had to go for a moment. Anyway...Our praise and our \"worship\" comes out of our gratefulness, not out of our structured meetings. When we die to self and allow God to work in us and through us, the natural, not imposed, attitude of our hearts will shine through. How are we truly fellowshipping with our backs to one another? Are you really communing in the stiff atmosphere that exists in the church today? I know we are not all like that, but fear of doing something wrong or displeasing to God has become our focus, (there are no patterns) when God only wants our willingness to love one another with His love in us. This has always been the heart of God from the OT to the NT. Quit making the \"meeting\" church. Quit listing rules to judge one another with. It has never been about what we do for an hour to two hours a week in a building. Scripture says \"we are God's building\". Feed your neigbor, pay his rent if he can't. Live on the streets if you have to to better understand His nature. Quit following the traditions of man thinking those are God's commandments. Wake up your brothers with the \"good news\". God's commandment is to show love...\"This is how you KNOW you have passed FROM DEATH TO LIFE, because, A: You sing only accapella B: You meet on Sunday C: You follow the rules better than your erring brother or D: you love your brother? \"Give what is inside the dish to the poor and EVERYTHING will be clean for you.\" Do you get it? Everything will be clean for you. where are the rules in that? \"Carry each others burdens and you will fulfill the law of Christ.\" This is the sacrifice with which God is pleased and it is your spiritual act of worship.

[/quote]

To this I must say... Amen, and Amen!!!  :clap:

Offline James Rondon

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« Reply #15 on: Sun Dec 22, 2002 - 13:58:26 »
Hi Kevin.

Good question! To really understand the issue, and to answer your query, I believe that an indepth study of Church History (especially Restoration History) would be in order...

My understanding, based upon Restoration History (that is the facet that I will deal with, at this point), is that the issue became one of major debate toward the end of the 19th century. Until then, church autonomy prevailed in such matters... That is, until M.C. Kurfees, and others, hit the scene.

Up to this point, the music question was of somewhat concern in the RM brotherhood, but was not an issue of "fellowship", nor an issue of "essentiality". Kurfees, it seems, changed this perception, and began to preach that this "presumptious interference with the divinely appointed worship"... this "high handed sin"... was one that needed to be dealt with and opposed. It was indeed, to him and to those that followed after him, a matter over which one's salvation was assuredly dependent. He used the verses you mentioned in establishing that there is a "pattern" for worship, and that it is "divinely appointed". To add instruments in our worship to God, would be to "go beyond the things which are written."

His impact, along with the impact of others, divided the RM, as I'm sure that you well know. From one Movement begun to unite all Christians in all denominations, sprung three sects identifying themselves as "Disciples of Christ", "The Church of Christ", and "The Christain Church".

M.C. Kurfees, along with others, have used these verses to try and prove their point... This is called Biblical "Scholasticism". It is the practice of searching the Scriptures to prove one's current practice or understanding. Such a practice usually ignores the context, both immediate, and otherwise.

As you have already stated, the immediate context, in the case of these two verses, does not merit such an interpretation... In fact, the verses in and of themselves, drawn out from the context, do not even merit such an interpretation... Unless one is looking for it.

I could say much more on this issue, but will refrain for now. I will wait and see what others have to say, first...

By the way, I have, in the past, preached like Kurfees preached... I have been down that road. But, like all roads, they eventually lead you somewhere. After arriving, many times you realize that, although you have travelled a long way, you ended have up in the wrong place. In such a situation, one can be content with being in the wrong place, given that the travel took so long... But one can also get back on the road, and continue his travel, until he arrives at the right destination...


James Rondon

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Offline Jesus4you

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« Reply #16 on: Sun Dec 22, 2002 - 16:40:14 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Here is a thought to ponder if one uses the "not authorized" argument against IM:  If these verses are not in the context of the assembly, then what authorization do we have to sing anything other thans psalms, hymns & spiritual songs in everyday situations?[/quote]
Paul is teaching us how to behave toward one another as Spirit filled Christians.  



Blessings,
Lauren

Those who adhere to a " not authorized theology" must adhere to it flawlessly lest they find themselves in violation of their own hermaneutical principles. If they are going to look at one subject in the Bible under the hermeneutics’ of additions (it is adding to the scriptures), the hermeneutics of exclusion (it is excluded from the scriptures) and the hermeneutics of silence (it is not in the scriptures) then they need to look at all issues of worship and life with those rules .  The problem that arises is that they will find that they have violated their own rules and could incur condemnation upon themselves.

Romans 2:1 ff  “You, therefore, have not excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever appoint you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.  Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? "
Luke 6:..."A good measure, down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap.  For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. "

Offline James Rondon

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« Reply #17 on: Sun Dec 22, 2002 - 21:31:02 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]It has bothered me that the church of the first three centuries did not use instruments and for that reason non-instrumental music developed the name a - cappella (of the church)  I don't know why they didn't but I can see some logic in this approach.  I do not however, see any logic in an appeal to the verses you've listed.[/quote]

Hello again, to all.

I just wanted to make a quick comment regarding the early history of instrumental music in Christian worship... There is not a lot of history to go by on this, much of it is not clear cut, and is mostly 3rd or 4th Century forward.

Many would appeal to the writings of Clement of Alexandria, among others, whom, it would appear, had quite a bit to say about this subject... However, this same Clement also wrote in 195 AD:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]"The one instrument of peace, the Word alone by whom we honour God, is what we employ. We no longer emply the ancient psaltery, timbrel, and flute. For those expert in war and scorners of the fear of God were inclined to make use of these instruments in the choruses at their festive assemblies... Yet, even if you wish to sing and play to the harp or lyre, there is no blame. You will imitate the righteous Hebrew king in his thanksgiving to God..." (bold emphasis mine, JR)[/quote]

It seems, from Clement, that those within his immediate fellowship did not use an instrument in their worship to God... But one can also conclude, from this same Clement, that such a practice seemed to be preference, and that the use of Instrumental Music was not thought of as "unauthorized".

Many of the early historical accounts that mention this topic seem to point at the pagans, and their "festive assemblies" and "frivolities". Maybe such a preference was solely reactionary? One can only speculate...


James Rondon

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Offline charlie

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« Reply #18 on: Mon Dec 23, 2002 - 08:34:34 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Here is a thought to ponder if one uses the "not authorized" argument against IM:  If these verses are not in the context of the assembly, then what authorization do we have to sing anything other thans psalms, hymns & spiritual songs in everyday situations?[/quote]
The answer to this question will probably be to the tune of: "secular music is fine, but not in a worship service." Not to tear down a straw man, but can you imagine sauntering out of your assembly immediately following the miraculous closing prayer to "Good night, Ladies", or "So Long, Farewell, Auf Wiedersehen, Goodbye"? What a gas!

Offline seekr

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« Reply #19 on: Mon Dec 23, 2002 - 11:25:42 »
finished that thought in a hurry as I had to go for a moment. Anyway...Our praise and our "worship" comes out of our gratefulness, not out of our structured meetings. When we die to self and allow God to work in us and through us, the natural, not imposed, attitude of our hearts will shine through. How are we truly fellowshipping with our backs to one another? Are you really communing in the stiff atmosphere that exists in the church today? I know we are not all like that, but fear of doing something wrong or displeasing to God has become our focus, (there are no patterns)when God only wants our willingness to love one another with His love in us. This has always been the heart of God from the OT to the NT. Quit making the "meeting" church. Quit listing rules to judge one another with. It has never been about what we do for an hour to two hours a week in a building. Scripture says "we are God's building". Feed your neigbor, pay his rent if he can't. Live on the streets if you have to to better understand His nature. Quit following the traditions of man thinking those are God's commandments. Wake up your brothers with the "good news". God's commandment is to show love..."This is how you KNOW you have passed FROM DEATH TO LIFE, because, A: You sing only accapella B: You meet on Sunday C: You follow the rules better than your erring brother or D: you love your brother? "Give what is inside the dish to the poor and EVERYTHING  will be clean for you." Do you get it? Everything will be clean for you. where are the rules in that? "Carry each others burdens and you will fulfill the law of Christ." This is the sacrifice with which God is pleased and it is your spiritual act of worship.

seekr

Offline david johnson

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« Reply #20 on: Mon Dec 23, 2002 - 14:17:03 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (spurly @ Dec. 22 2002,12:36)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Please don't think I am trying to stir up trouble, just because I am a member of a church that uses instruments in worship.  That's not what I am trying to do, I am just trying to understand.  So here is my question.

 ??? Whenever someone who thinks that instruments should not be used in worship gives me a reason as to why, they refer to one or both of the above verses.

I was just looking at the verses, and the context in which they are found, and I don't see anything in those verses that signify that Paul was referring to times when Christians got together to worship and glorify God.

It seems to me that instead of worship, both of those passages are just giving instructions to the Christians to encourage each other with psalms, spiritual songs, and hymns. The singing and making music in your heart to the Lord does not seem to be a command for when the Christians come together, instead it seems to be a command for every day living.

How did these verses get interpreted to be referring to worship?

Just curious.

Kevin  :wave:[/quote]
spurly:

paul says use these genres that exist only as worship music, but don't apply them to worship?  

dj

 

     
anything