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Offline s1n4m1n

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Epistle to the Romans and The Wisdom of Solomon
« on: Sat Feb 08, 2003 - 12:21:01 »
Bobby,

I just had to reply and thank you for your insightful postings publically. Its obvious you spend a lot of effort and time in religious matters (both from Biblical and common sources).

I have recently bought a Catholic Jerusalem Bible to read because it had the Apocrypha in it. From what you posted it seems like those works had an impact on the apostles teaching. So they would appear to be worthy of study.

Thanks again for you illuminating work.

Agape,

Ken

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« on: Sat Feb 08, 2003 - 12:21:01 »

Offline Bobby Valentine

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« Reply #1 on: Sat Feb 08, 2003 - 16:06:21 »
Ken and James, greetings from the Land of Beer and Cheese (we are getting really big fluffy snow as I write).  Thanks for the kindness you have shown.  

Contrary to semi-popular opinion (in both Evangelical and Restorationist circles anyway) I believe the Apocrypha to be essential in understanding the message and context of the New Testament.  Now the most important source is the Hebrew Bible but the influence of the Apocrypha in early Christianity and over two millennia is undeniable.  The Apocrypha dispels some very big myths about the Jewish religion of the time as well (myths that invade and prejudice our views of many subjects).

As a side note the 1611 AV (KJV) included the Apocrypha, as did most other English versions of the Bible until near the end of the 19th century.  The KJV also had about a dozen cross references to the Apocrypha in its notes.  

Today you can get the Apocrypha in the following versions: KJV, NRSV (and the older RSV), NEB, REB, JB, New JB, Today's English Version, Goodspeed, among others.  I personally think the NRSV is the best edition. The Bible I use habitually (the NRSV) includes the Apocrypha and I have been known to refer to a passage here and there in my sermons.  This Summer (the next quarter) at Southside I will be teaching a class on the Apocrypha.

If you would like to do some reading on the Apocrypha I highly recommend the new book by David A. deSilva, Introducing the Apocrypha: Message, Context, and Significance (Baker, 2002).  deSilva's book is hands down the best Introduction to the Apocrypha and will probably replace Bruce Metzger's old standard.  Great book.  Amazon.Com has it for 20 smackers.

Your study of the NT will be enriched,
Bobby Valentine
Milwaukee, WI

Offline Lee Freeman

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« Reply #2 on: Sat Feb 08, 2003 - 23:15:08 »
Bobby, greetings from the land of Larimore. You guys are gettin' snow there, huh? Well, you can have it. We had a a snow two weeks ago, which is one too many for me. Thanks for another great post. Remeber what Kermit used to say on the Muppet Show in the segment where they had a roundtable discussion of some deep subject (which usually resulted in Miss Piggy karate-chopping someone who'd just insulted her): \"And now it's time to raise the intellectual level of our program?\" You're doing that with these posts. I've thought for a long time that a knowledge of Jesus in his Jewish milieu is essential for a deeper understanding of his message and mission. I read a book by Dr. J. Julius Scott a few years ago called Customs and Controversies: Intertestamental Jewish Backgrounds of the New Testament. He took the title from Acts 26: 3  where Paul, in an audience with King Agrippa, said he was fortunate to stand before him...\"because you are well acquainted with all the Jewish customs and controversies.\"  Jesus was an orthodox Jew, right? (True orthodoxy, not Pharisaic self-righteousness). One thing I've learned is that there was no such thing as a standard monolithic Judaism. It really helps me to understand a little about the various different sects (Esseenes, Saduccess, Zealots, etc.) and how they interacted with one another, with the Romans and with the larger Hellenistic culture. I'm fascinated by how some streams of Judaism tried to assimilate Graeco-Roman religious and philosophical ideas. I read recently that there was a Jewish temple in Alexandria. Well, time to read some C. S. Lewis. Pax vobiscum.

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« Reply #2 on: Sat Feb 08, 2003 - 23:15:08 »

Offline Bobby Valentine

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« Reply #3 on: Mon Feb 10, 2003 - 15:06:47 »
Barry (and others) greetings from the Land of Beer and Cheese.  Sorry for the delay in replying to the pm about the Apocrypha and Pseudepigraphal writings in the New Testament.  I have been busier than I expected over the weekend.  However, there is a \"significant\" amount of awareness on the part of the New Testament writers of these non-canonical sources.  It should not surprise us in the least. These folks lived in the real world and had an interest in that world.  The leading explanation for our not seeing these allusions is our ignorance (in the proper sense of the word) of the sources.  The field is huge so I cannot address it in this post. But I will draw attention to the more obvious examples.

In the Life of Jesus:

There can be no doubt that Jesus of Nazareth had knowledge of the Apocryphal work known as Sirach.  The Gospels demonstrate this repeatedly.  For example Luke records Jesus' Parable of the Rich Fool (Luke 12.13-21).  Most scholars believe that this story has its origin in Sirach's description of the self-centered, secular, man who anticipates a life of ease but then his life is called into account. I will reproduce the Sirach text (you can look up Luke  ;) ):

\"There is a man who is rich through his diligence and self-denial, And this is the reward allotted to him:
When he says, 'I have found rest, And now I whall enjoy my goods!'
He does not know when his time will come; He will leave them to others and die
\" (Sirach 11.18-19)

Another text from Sirach shows thematic connections with Matthews account of Jesus' famous saying of having light burdens and giving rest (Matt. 11.28-30).  In Sirach we read,

\"Draw near to me, you who are untaught, and lodge in the house of instruction . . . Put your neck under the yoke, and let your souls receive instruction . . . See with your eyes that I have labored little and found for myself much rest\" (Sirach 51.23, 26-27).

There are a number of connections between the Sermon on the Mount and Sirach as well.  Sirach was written in Hebrew and known in Palestine as shown by being among the Dead Sea Scrolls.  Jesus was a Rabbi and it would be more strange that he did not know Sirach than if he did.

The Epistles

I have already discussed Paul's knowledge of the
The Wisdom of Solomon in connection with Romans and Ephesians.  But Paul alludes to this work several more times as well.  The most significant reference for our purposes is in 2 Corinthians 5.1-9 which contains significant parallels, thematically and verbally, with Wisdom 9.10-19.  I draw attention especially to 2 C 5.1&4 with Wisdom 9.15.  Wisdom reads:

\"
For a perishable body weighs down the soul, and this earthly tent burdens the thoughtful mind . . .\"

In both Corinthians and Wisdom the metaphor of the earthly tent/tabernacle appears.  Now this was common enough in the Hellenistic world that at first sight might mitigate against my thesis.  But there are certain verbal connections that cannot be mere coincidence.  For example the word
skenos translated in the NRSV as \"tent\" in both Wisdom and Corinthians appears only in these two passages in all of Biblical Greek (both NT and LXX).  

The Epistle to the Hebrews has a number of allusions to Apocryphal writings.  For example there can be no doubt that the form, and perhaps some of the content, of the famous \"Hall of Fame\" of Faith in ch. 11 comes straight from Sirach's catalogue of \"Famous Men\" (Sirach 44 and following).  Also in the Hall of Fame in 11.35 (\"
were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they might rise again to a better life\"\" is undoubtedly the Maccabean martyrs.  Eleazar's death described in 2 Maccabees 6.19 and the gruesome story of the martyrdom of a Jewish mother and her seven sons in 2 Macc. 7 provides the context for what the Writer is testifying to.  These legends are expanded greatly in Fourth Maccabees.  

While I am on Hebrews mention should be made of how the Dead Sea Scrolls shed considerable light on the interest in Melchizedek.  In Cave 11 a document was uncovered that is known as 11Q13 or 11QMelchizedek that centers on this famous person from Genesis.  In this document Melchizedek is a heavenly angelic being identified as the head of the \"sons of Heaven\" and likely with Michael the archangel.  This Melchizedek is supposed to bring about a great deliverance that is to occur on the Day of Atonement (that should ring some bells from Hebrews).  Unfortunately the text is fragmentary).  More on this fascinating text can be read in Geza Vermes,
The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls In English, pp.500-502 (this is Vermes 5th edition).


The Epistle of Jude directly quotes from
1 Enoch 1.9 (vv.14-15).  Enoch is another book that has been found among the was previously known but was discovered among the DSS to be in Hebrew/Aramaic.  Enoch also has lots of discussion of a person known as \"The Son of Man.\"  Any person interested in that Christological title in the Gospels might wish to read Enoch as well.

Finally I wish to end with Paul, the one who started this thread.  In 2 Timothy 3.8 the Apostle refers to magicians that opposed Moses, their names are \"Jannes and Jambres.\"  You will search in vain to find them in the Hebrew Bible. These two characters are legendary -- sort of like Paul Bunyan and Babe the Blue Ox.  The earliest reference to them was discovered in the ruins of the Cairo Geniza dating to about 100 B.C. (for a text see Geza Vermes,
The Dead Sea Scrolls in English the FIRST edition, pp. 95-117).  Their folk lore was written down in the Old Testament Pseudepigraphal work, Jannes and Jambres which has a greatly disputed date.  Paul most likely did not know this work but he was familiar with the folk lore and may have known the works Vermes quotes.

Again none of this do I find troubling in the slightest.  The Christian faith is a
historical faith!  Some do not like history -- they should become Buddists  ;)   But it is hard to follow biblical faith and not have an interst in the world around you.  These references (which could be greatly multiplied) show that the church lived in the world and did what was theologically appropriate to connect and communicate with those around them.  

A knowledge of the Apocrypha can help us have a deeper understanding of Jesus and the early church -- and thus our faith.  You might even find in the Apocrypha the encouragement of faith itself.   :thumbup:

Shalom,
Bobby Valentine
Milwaukee, WI

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« Reply #3 on: Mon Feb 10, 2003 - 15:06:47 »

Offline Lee Freeman

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« Reply #4 on: Mon Feb 10, 2003 - 16:53:20 »
Yes, I thought Scott's book was a good introduction to intertestamental Judaism. His main point is that to fully understand Christianity you hafta understand the Judaism that birthed it. I have a couple of questions; first, did the earliest Christians, in Acts, consider themselves Jewish, albeit with a twist, or did they know they were the first adherents of a new religion? Secondly, how authoritative would you consider these pseudepigraphal texts? They're not in the canon, but if both Paul and Jesus quoted from them or even paraphrased them... Please send me those titles; you know I'm interested in reading everything like that I can get my hands on. I'm reading a book now called The Question of God: C. S. Lewis and Sigmund Freud Debate God, Love, Sex, and the Meaning of Life by Dr. Armand M. Nicholi, Jr., a psychiatrist from Harvard Medical School, who teaches courses in that subject. Nicholi seems himself to be pre-disposed toward some kind of theism (I don't know if he's Christian or Jewish or what). Well, anyway, I'm reading some Star Trek too, but that doesn't count, I guess. My  e-mail address is; [a href=\"mailto:lfreeman_histgen@hotmail.com\"]lfreeman_histgen@hotmail.com[/a] . Pax vobiscum.

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Offline Bobby Valentine

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« Reply #5 on: Tue Feb 11, 2003 - 21:23:37 »
Barry and Lee, Greetings from the Land of Cold, Snow, Beer and Cheese.  Lee the book on Lewis sounds mysterious perhaps you can let me know how it comes out.  Barry I am pretty sure that the Scriptures do not contain a reference to the temple at Elephantine in Egypt.  

I did promise to provide a list of references to the Apocrypha from the margin of the 1611 King James Version though.  So here it is:

In the Margin of                                  Is a Reference to

Matt. 6.7 .......................................... Sirach 7.14
Matt. 23.37 ....................................... 2 Esdras 1.30
Matt. 27.37 ....................................... Wisdom 2.15, 16
Luke 6.31 .......................................... Tobit 4.15
Luke 14.13 ........................................ Tobit 4.7
John 10.22 ........................................ 1 Maccabees 4.59
Romans 9.21 ...................................... Wisdom 15.7
Romans 11.34 .................................... Wisdom 9.13
2 Cor. 9.7 .........................................  Sirach 35.9
Hebrews 1.3 ......................................  Wisdom 7.26
Hebrews 11.35 ...................................  2 Maccabees 7.7

These are the eleven references in the AV New Testament to the Apocrypha.  There are also 102 cross-references to the Apocrypha in the Hebrew Bible of the KJV.

Shalom,
Bobby Valentine
Milwaukee, WI

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« Reply #5 on: Tue Feb 11, 2003 - 21:23:37 »

Offline Bobby Valentine

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« Reply #6 on: Wed Feb 12, 2003 - 09:22:51 »
Lee, Richard Horsley is not a scholar that I would waste my money on.  Get the Zealots by Martin Hengel instead.

Shalom,
Bobby Valentine
Milwaukee, WI

Offline James Rondon

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« Reply #7 on: Thu Feb 13, 2003 - 02:06:46 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Bobby Valentine wrote:
In the Margin of                                  Is a Reference to

Matt. 6.7 .......................................... Sirach 7.14
Matt. 23.37 ....................................... 2 Esdras 1.30
Matt. 27.37 ....................................... Wisdom 2.15, 16
Luke 6.31 .......................................... Tobit 4.15
Luke 14.13 ........................................ Tobit 4.7
John 10.22 ........................................ 1 Maccabees 4.59
Romans 9.21 ...................................... Wisdom 15.7
Romans 11.34 .................................... Wisdom 9.13
2 Cor. 9.7 .........................................  Sirach 35.9
Hebrews 1.3 ......................................  Wisdom 7.26
Hebrews 11.35 ...................................  2 Maccabees 7.7[/quote]
Thanks Bobby... I knew there were more, I just couldn't remember where they were.

Offline Lee Freeman

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« Reply #8 on: Thu Feb 13, 2003 - 08:49:31 »
Okay, so maybe I'll skip that one. I've got a few more to choose from: Raymond E. Brown's The Churches the Apostles Left Behind; Robert Banks' Paul's Idea of Community: The Early House Churches; Douglas Burton-Christie's The Word in the Desert: Scripture and the Quest for Holiness in Early Christian Monasticism; Maureen A. Tilley's The Bible in Christian Africa: The Donatist World; Rowan Williams' Arius: Heresy and Tradition; and R. A. Markus' Gregory the Great and His World. Pax vobiscum.

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« Reply #8 on: Thu Feb 13, 2003 - 08:49:31 »

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« Reply #9 on: Thu Feb 13, 2003 - 14:50:49 »
Bobby,


Your right.  The verses I thought alluded to the temple in Elephantine does not in fact do so, but alludes to an altar,pillar, and sacrifices to Yahweh.  It does speak how Egypt will be regarded as people of God in the future, but no direct reference to the temple is there.   If anyone is interested the verses I was thinking about are found in Isaiah 19:18-24.

Offline Bobby Valentine

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« Reply #10 on: Sat Feb 08, 2003 - 11:27:08 »
Romans and the Wisdom of Solomon

The Wisdom of Solomon was written by a pious Alexandrian Jew some time after 200 B.C. This literary production whose theme might be said to be \"the righteous live forever,\" left a marked impression on the Apostle Paul. This is especially evident in his letter to the Romans. There are two passages, one lengthy and the other short, that show direct contact with Wisdom and merit our attention. The first is in Romans 1.19-32 where Paul presents his searing critique of pagan depravity -- his criticism however comes straight from Wisdom (cf. Wisdom 13-14).

First: Both works move through the same progression of thought. The Gentiles ought to have been able to perceive the One God through observation and so are \"without excuse\" (Wisdom 13.1-9; Romans 1.19-20); Gentiles instead turned to the worship of created things (Wisdom 13.2,7; Rom. 1.22-23, 25). This ignorance of God (Wisdom 14.22; Rom. 1.21) produced all manner of wickedness, including murder, theft, deceit and sexual perversion (Wisdom 14.22-27; Rom. 1.24, 26-31). God just sentence remains on those who practice such deeds (Wisdom 14.30-31; Romans 1.32).

For the sake of those who do not have Wisdom I will reproduce a couple of illustrative texts with a cross reference to Romans:

\"From the greatness and beauty of created things comes a corresponding perception of their Creator\" (Wisdom 13.5, cf. Rom. 1.20)

\"Yet again, even they cannot be excused, for if they had the power to know so much that they could investigate the world, how did they fail to find sooner the Lord of these things\" (Wisdom 13.8, cf. Rom. 1.20-21)

\"For all men who were ignorant of God were foolish by nature; and they were unable from the good things that are seen to know him who exists, nor did they recognize the craftsman while paying heed to his works\" (Wisdom 13.1)

Wisdom describes the pagan debauchery in these familiar terms in Romans, \"They no longer keep either their lives or their marriages pure, but they either treacherously kill one another, or grieve one another by adultery, and all is a raging riot of blood and murder, theft and deceit, corruption, faithlessness, tumult, perjury, confusion over what is good, forgetfulness of favors, pollution of souls, sex perversion, disorder in marriage, adultery, and debaucher. For the worship of unspeakable idols is the beginning and cause and end of every evil\" (Wisdom 14.24-27, cf. Rom. 1.26, 29-31).

The Second shorter text (but no less significant) occurs in Romans 9.21. In actuality in the context of this passage Paul seems to refer to both Wisdom and Sirach. Paul affirms God's absolute sovereignty over human beings in terms found in Sirach 33.10-13 (i.e. \"all are as clay in the hands of the potter . . . to be given whatever he decides\"). To this Paul adds a line that comes nearly verbatim from Wisdom 15.7 where the Potter makes \"out of the same clay both the vessels that serve clean uses and those for contrary/unclean uses.\" Paul also shares with Wisdom that God's judgment is beyond criticism and the will of God irresistible (Wisdom 12.12, cf. Rom. 9.19) while stressing that God is mercifully patient allowing opportunity for repentance (Wisdom 11.23; 12.19-20, cf. Rom. 2.4).

As a side note Paul seems to have in mind Wisdom 5.17-20 in Ephesians 6.11-17. I know that it is popular preacher lore to say that Paul was meditating on the armor of a Roman soldier but that is probably not the case. First as Richard Hayes {Echoes of Scripture in Paul's Letters} points out the first root of the Ephesians text is Isaiah 59.17 but he see the Isaiah text through Wisdom 5. Two strong reasons suggest this: 1) Wisdom adds two details that are not in Isaiah that are in Paul, the shield and the sword; 2) Paul uses the exact word in Wisdom -- the \"panoplia\" (whole armor\" of God).

Clearly Paul had an intimate knowledge of the Wisdom of Solomon and had a high regard for the book. If we are fully appreciate Paul's letter to the Romans we need to explore his sources they often shed light on the text of Romans itself. It also calls us to to a greater knowledge of Wisdom.

Quotations taken from The Parallel Apocrypha: Greek and English Texts, ed John Kohlenberger III (Oxford UP, 1997).

Shalom,
Bobby Valentine
Milwaukee, WI

Offline James Rondon

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« Reply #11 on: Sat Feb 08, 2003 - 15:28:56 »
Thanks Bobby... I, too, have noticed some of the Apocryphal influences in the New Covenant Scriptures. I didn't pay much heed, however, to the extent by which Paul mirrored Wisdom in Romans.

Isn't it interesting that some would view the study of such non-canonical works as almost heretical, yet it seems that the apostles and their companions may have thought completely to the contrary?

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« Reply #12 on: Sat Feb 08, 2003 - 22:06:13 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (James Rondon @ Feb. 08 2003,3:28)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Thanks Bobby... I, too, have noticed some of the Apocryphal influences in the New Covenant Scriptures. I didn't pay much heed, however, to the extent by which Paul mirrored Wisdom in Romans.

Isn't it interesting that some would view the study of such non-canonical works as almost heretical, yet it seems that the apostles and their companions may have thought completely to the contrary?[/quote]
Uhhh, yes. :p


Would you guys give me more examples you are aware of?

I know about the Enoch IV and Assumption of Moses being mentioned in Jude.

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« Reply #13 on: Sun Feb 09, 2003 - 23:22:16 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] (James Rondon @ Feb. 08 2003,3:28)
Thanks Bobby... I, too, have noticed some of the Apocryphal influences in the New Covenant Scriptures. I didn't pay much heed, however, to the extent by which Paul mirrored Wisdom in Romans.[/quote]

Isn't it interesting that some would view the study of such non-canonical works as almost heretical, yet it seems that the apostles and their companions may have thought completely to the contrary?

Uhhh, yes.  


Would you guys give me more examples you are aware of?

I know about the Enoch IV and Assumption of Moses being mentioned in Jude[/quote]
Hi Barry... Regarding your question, I guess I would have to go through the Apocryphal books again to give you a good answer. I mostly noticed these suspected influences while reading different non-canonical works in times past.

Aside from the two you have already mentioned, and aside from what Bobby had referred to initially, some say that there may be a reference to 2 Esdras 7, and/or 2 Macc. 7 in Hebrews chapter 11. Besides these, I noticed the possibility of a few more when reading some of these works some time ago... but I couldn't tell you exactly where they are, nor what I thought they were paralleling right now.

As Bobby indicated, the apostles had probably been influenced, to some degree, by some of these works. Whether that makes them authoritative or not, is another topic.

Offline Bobby Valentine

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« Reply #14 on: Mon Feb 10, 2003 - 15:49:29 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Lee Freeman @ Feb. 08 2003,11:15)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Bobby, greetings from the land of Larimore. You guys are gettin' snow there, huh? Well, you can have it. We had a a snow two weeks ago, which is one too many for me. Thanks for another great post. Remeber what Kermit used to say on the Muppet Show in the segment where they had a roundtable discussion of some deep subject (which usually resulted in Miss Piggy karate-chopping someone who'd just insulted her): \"And now it's time to raise the intellectual level of our program?\" You're doing that with these posts. I've thought for a long time that a knowledge of Jesus in his Jewish milieu is essential for a deeper understanding of his message and mission. I read a book by Dr. J. Julius Scott a few years ago called Customs and Controversies: Intertestamental Jewish Backgrounds of the New Testament. He took the title from Acts 26: 3  where Paul, in an audience with King Agrippa, said he was fortunate to stand before him...\"because you are well acquainted with all the Jewish customs and controversies.\"  Jesus was an orthodox Jew, right? (True orthodoxy, not Pharisaic self-righteousness). One thing I've learned is that there was no such thing as a standard monolithic Judaism. It really helps me to understand a little about the various different sects (Esseenes, Saduccess, Zealots, etc.) and how they interacted with one another, with the Romans and with the larger Hellenistic culture. I'm fascinated by how some streams of Judaism tried to assimilate Graeco-Roman religious and philosophical ideas. I read recently that there was a Jewish temple in Alexandria. Well, time to read some C. S. Lewis. Pax vobiscum.[/quote]
Lee I am unfamiliar with that author.  Was the book a good one?  

Shalom,
Bobby Valentine
Milwaukee, WI

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« Reply #15 on: Mon Feb 10, 2003 - 15:59:16 »
Lee sorry I pressed the wrong button.  Yes, Jesus a faithful, Torah-abiding, orthodox Jew.  He even wore phylacteries if Mark is to be believed (and I seen no reason to doubt him).  I would dare say that Jesus was -- for the most part -- a Pharisee.  He had differences for sure but  . . . he and Rabbi Hillel sound an awful lot alike.  

There was a Jewish Temple in Egypt that was used for several centuries.  The temple was located in what in Elephantine (spelling?).  A Jewish colony settled there most likely in the time of the Exile or shortly thereafter.  There are many surviving letters from the colony to the Persian authorities that date to the time Nehemiah.  Interestingly that temple even had sacrifices.  

Send me an email and I will send you a few titles if you want to pursue the subject further.  

Shalom,
Bobby Valentine
Milwaukee, WI

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« Reply #16 on: Mon Feb 10, 2003 - 20:34:36 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Bobby Valentine @ Feb. 10 2003,3:59)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Lee sorry I pressed the wrong button.  Yes, Jesus a faithful, Torah-abiding, orthodox Jew.  He even wore phylacteries if Mark is to be believed (and I seen no reason to doubt him).  I would dare say that Jesus was -- for the most part -- a Pharisee.  He had differences for sure but  . . . he and Rabbi Hillel sound an awful lot alike.  

There was a Jewish Temple in Egypt that was used for several centuries.  The temple was located in what in Elephantine (spelling?).  A Jewish colony settled there most likely in the time of the Exile or shortly thereafter.  There are many surviving letters from the colony to the Persian authorities that date to the time Nehemiah.  Interestingly that temple even had sacrifices.  

Send me an email and I will send you a few titles if you want to pursue the subject further.  

Shalom,
Bobby Valentine
Milwaukee, WI[/quote]
I've read about the Jewish temple in Elelphantine.  the Jews in Israeil refused to have anything to do with it, though if I remember correctly there is a reference to it in the Bible.  Let me see if I can find it and I'll get back to you.

Offline Lee Freeman

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Epistle to the Romans and The Wisdom of Solomon
« Reply #17 on: Wed Feb 12, 2003 - 09:16:11 »
Bobby, they have those 1611 KJVs at the Christian Book Store here, though I don't have one yet. Those of our brethren who insist on using the KJV should get one o' these! What with the tables for figuring the date for Easter, the references to the patristic fathers and now, as you've pointed out, the scripture references to the Apocrypha. The book on Lewis' and Freud's worldviews and ideas on God is very interesting. I think Dr. Nicholi comes down in favor of Lewis' view.  I got Christian Book Distributors' \"Academic Catalog\" Monday;this is a GREAT catalog! The first book I'm gonna order is called Bandits, Prophets & Messiahs; Popular Movements at the Time of Jesus by Richard A. Horsley and John S. Hanson. If you don't get this catalog you should; you'd love it. Pax vobiscum.

Offline Lee Freeman

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Epistle to the Romans and The Wisdom of Solomon
« Reply #18 on: Wed Feb 12, 2003 - 12:16:39 »
Thanks. I'll take that under advisement. What don't you like about Horsley? I'm not familiar with his work, but the title appealed to me. Where can I get that book on the Zealots? Amazon.com? Maybe I'll run a few of the other titles I'm considering buying by you. Pax vobiscum.

Offline Bobby Valentine

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Epistle to the Romans and The Wisdom of Solomon
« Reply #19 on: Thu Feb 13, 2003 - 07:24:24 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Lee Freeman @ Feb. 12 2003,12:16)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Thanks. I'll take that under advisement. What don't you like about Horsley? I'm not familiar with his work, but the title appealed to me. Where can I get that book on the Zealots? Amazon.com? Maybe I'll run a few of the other titles I'm considering buying by you. Pax vobiscum.[/quote]
Horsely is not what I would call a careful scholar. He is given to exaggeration, going beyond the evidence, leaning towards conclusions for their shock value.  I lump him in the same crowd as the Jesus Seminar folks. I better things to do with my money (and time) than waste it on his material (that is what a library is for).

Hey do you want me to package some snow for you  :eek:

Shalom,
Bobby Valentine

 

     
anything