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Offline LaSpino3

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Eternal security, yes, or no?
« on: Wed Jan 12, 2011 - 10:21:21 »
The following has been downloaded from www.seekfirstwisdom.com

Man's eternal security has been, and will continue to be a controversial subject. There are opinions, then there are Biblical facts. 

Question; If a person once professing faith in Jesus Christ, then willfully rejects that which he had once professed (if this is possible) can they ever be restored to the faith? A favored verse used as proof is, 

Heb.6:4-5-6,  "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

Following are the Greek words (highlighted above) that should shed light on the subject.  If Heb.6, is correctly understood, it will clear up any mis-givings on the subject of, "Once saved always saved."

The verses to be discussed are found in, Heb.6:4-6. I have enlarged the words under discussion.

Heb.6:4-6,  "For it is impossible for those who were ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and have TASTED of the heavenly gifts, and were made PARTAKERS of the Holy Ghost, and have TASTED the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, IF they shall fall away, to RENEW them again unto repentance.

1.  The Greek word, "Once:" Greek is, hapax. Its a adverb of time, once, as a Metaphor, meaning once for all, already, formerly,

2.  "Enlightened"  Synonyms and similarities are,  Light, Lighten: Lightened: Lighteth:   Greek is photizo. To light, to lighten. When a person is said to be, "Once enlightened?"  That person is said to be thoroughly instructed in the nature and design of the Gospel of Christ. That person having received the knowledge of the truth. Compare the following verses.

As a metaphors, common form. Of persons, to light, to enlighten, to impart moral and spiritual light to any one, to enlighten the mind of mental eyes of any one. See how the word is used in other passages of Scripture. To enlighten is from the "light," as seen below.
 
John 1:9,  "That the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." 

Passive expressing action, or the effect of an action of some agent.  Eph.1:18, "The eyes of your understanding being enlightened."

To have, "Tasted of the heavenly gift."  The Greek word,  "Tasted," is used as a metaphor, to experience, to prove, to partake of what? 

Heb.6:5, "The good word of God." To taste is used also in,

 Matt.16:28,  "There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death." To taste of death, as in to die,

Heb.2:9,  "That He (Jesus) by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

John 8:52,  "If a man keep my sayings, he shall never taste of death."

So Heb.6:4,  "Having tasted of the heavenly gifts."  Seq. or present participle of sequel, to follow, "That," 1 Pet.2:3, "If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious." Sept. for Heb. Ps.34:8, "O taste and see that the LORD is good."

To be made, "Partakers of the Holy Ghost" The Greek word, "partakers,"

"Partakers."  Greek is, metochos.  Adj. partaking, substantive, meaning a part of speech which expresses something that exists.  A partaker,

Heb.3:1, "Partakers of the heavenly calling," with ver.14, "For we are made partakers of Christ."

Heb.6:4, 12:8, "If ye be without chastisement, where of all are partakers." 

Partakers the sense of partner, companion, fellow,

Luke 5:7,  "They beckoned unto their partners."

Heb.1:9,  "God hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows," quoted from Ps.45:8, where Sept. for Heb. "fellows" (companions.)"

It is impossible to, "To renew them again" Greek for renew is, anakainizo. Future,  "Doubtless," To renew to restore to its former state, trans. pp. Sept. "Renewest," Ps. 104:30.  In N.T. metaph. to renew, spoken of those who have fallen from the true faith, to bring back to repentance and their former faith, Heb. 6:6. Sept. Metaphor for, "Renewed," Ps.103:5.

5.  "If they shall fall away."

The Greek word for "If," is, "ean."  Conjunct. (for Greek, "ei," meaning, if perhaps, forasmuch, that,  and Greek "an," meaning, what where whence. It differs from "ei," int that "ei," expresses a condition which is merely hypothetical, as a subjective possibility; while "ean," implies a condition which experiences must determine, as an objective possibility, and refers therefore always to something future. Compare,  "ei," with, "ean," in, 1 Cor.7:36, "But if (ei,) any man think." Rev.2:5. "Eav," "Except thou repent," is usually construed with the Subjective, meaning these internal states or thought or feelings. So, Subjective truths or reality is that which is verified by consciousness.

Heb.10:32,  "But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated (enlightened,)  ye endured a great fight of afflictions." 

The words illuminated, and enlightened, are the same Greek word.= (phitizo)  The idea of being enlightened infers, to enlighten, to impart moral and spiritual light to any one, to enlighten the mind, or mental eyes of any one.  That is, to have been thoroughly instructed, and to understand the knowledge of the word of truth.

Heb.10:26,  "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," 

This would have to be a deliberate denial of the Gospel message after having understanding its message, and having a conviction for the truth.  For this person, there remains no more sacrifice for sin. Heb.10:26, answers to both, Heb.6:4, and,

Heb.10:32, "Call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions." 

What is meant when it is said that a person has, "Tasted of the heavenly gift?"  Or has tasted for themselves, God's gifts.  We saw that the word, "Enlightened" refers to enlightening of the mind and mental eye.  This held true especially for those Jew's, and Gentiles, who were actual witnesses of the works of Christ, and the apostiles.  So the idea of a person who having tasted of the heavenly gifts follows.  It gives the idea of experiencing, proving, and partaking, of the finished work of Christ.

To be, "Made partakers of the Holy Spirit?" This implying that the Holy Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit, that we are God's children, and not the servants of others.  This assuring us of God's mercy and of His power to produce effects by the atonement through which we have received blessings.

Being, "Made partakers of the Holy Ghost," is distinct from, though inseparably connected with, "To be Enlightened," and with those who have,  "Tasted of the heavenly gifts."  That gift being Jesus Christ.  So the Holy Spirit witnesses with a man's spirit, assuring us of Illumination, and of the partaking of the God's gifts.

To have,  "Tasted the good word of God?"  We have proof of the merits of the promises of God, in the sending of the Gospel message.  The Gospel itself being the Good-Word, of a Good God.  Do you find the reading and preaching of the Gospel sweet in your mouth, music to your ears, and saving to your soul?   Do you have an appetite and thirst for the word of God.

Heb.6:6, the verse starts with, "If they shall fall away,"  This is an extreme falling away.  A full and willful apostasy is meant.  We are warned that such a falling would be the final result of retrogression, = (going back to our worldly ways.)

Heb.6:1,  "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God." 

"To renew them again?" means to make another confession of faith, or to again repent of sin, these being the first steps needed in our Christian walk. If a person is not truly repentant, being sorry is useless in itself.  Why? Any person who has rejected in part, or its whole, the works of Jesus Christ, has rejected  the only Sacrifice that can save them from eternal damnation.  Without true faith, their repentance would be useless, and their salvation impossible. For this reason, the apostle added, "Again,"  as in, To renew them again."

"Seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God?"  The Jewish authority, with the blessing of the Jewish people rejected Jesus on the grounds that He was an imposter, agreeing that He was justly put to death.  Therefore it is said, "To crucify him to themselves."

Paul wrote in Gal.6:14,  "God forbid that I = (Paul) should glory, save = (except) in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me."  Paul is saying, because the Jews and Gentiles despise me, for that which I believe and trust, I Paul, despise them for what they believe and trust in.

Heb.10:29,  "Of how much sorer = (worse) punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden = (trampled)  under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, = (common) and hath done despite = (insult)  unto the Spirit of grace?"

The phrase, "The Son of God"  marks Jesus dignity.  To trample, to insult, or make the crucifixion seem trivial, is to reveal the whole of a person's contempt and blasphemous remarks, after having once received the truth.

What does it mean when its states, "Put Him = (Jesus) to an open shame?"  Its to mock, or make a public example of Jesus. What the Jews did outwardly at Jesus crucifixion, are what blasphemers do inwardly, virtually crucifying the Son of God over, and over again. This verse seems to imply that a person may appear to be renewed, but in their heart, they are not, and will eventually fall again into a sinful life.

The conclusion,

The truth of one's salvation lies in their hearts. Only God can know the depth of a man's love. Those who are not of Christ, are cast off as a dead branch; but those who live in Him become free from the grip of sin.

Phil LaSpino

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Eternal security, yes, or no?
« on: Wed Jan 12, 2011 - 10:21:21 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #1 on: Wed Jan 12, 2011 - 11:19:28 »
Good post Phil.

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #1 on: Wed Jan 12, 2011 - 11:19:28 »

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #2 on: Wed Jan 12, 2011 - 18:03:14 »
Jaime,

Thanks, I am going to discuss a few other contraversial verses on this subject.

Can you do me a favor? See if you can find a picture of Einstein with his tongue in his mouth. I know that had a mass energy equation from his relativistic dynarmics, that the total energy content (E) of a particle moving with velocity (V) its mass (m) at rest, and the velocity (C) of light, is given by equation E = mc squared / (L - v 2/ c2) 1/2. But to have his tongue hanging out, that to much.

Phil LaSpino

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #2 on: Wed Jan 12, 2011 - 18:03:14 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #3 on: Wed Jan 12, 2011 - 18:12:19 »
If there is no assurance, then why would God give us a down payment?

Eph 1:13-14 - In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

ear·nest    /ˈɜrnɪst/  [ur-nist] 
–noun
1. a portion of something, given or done in advance as a pledge of the remainder.
2. Law . earnest money.

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #3 on: Wed Jan 12, 2011 - 18:12:19 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #4 on: Wed Jan 12, 2011 - 18:12:53 »
I just like to irritate folks with my avatar. I guess it's working.

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #4 on: Wed Jan 12, 2011 - 18:12:53 »



Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #5 on: Wed Jan 12, 2011 - 18:15:38 »
I just like to irritate folks with my avatar. I guess it's working.
It makes me laugh.

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #5 on: Wed Jan 12, 2011 - 18:15:38 »

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #6 on: Thu Jan 13, 2011 - 10:27:30 »
Jarrod, You asked, "If there is no assurance, then why would God give us a down payment?" Then you went on to quote,

Eph 1:13-14 - "In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

Phil replies, Jerod, "I believe the answer to your question lies in ver.14. The Greek word for "earnest" is, "arrhabon." As you said, it is a pledge given by God, to ratify His contract with us. In N.T. as a metaphor it speaks of the privileges of Christians in this life, especially the gift of the Holy Spirit. He being an earnest, a pledge, of future joy in the Messiah's kingdom.

What is expected of us according to Eph.1, is to hear, and to trust in the word of truth, which is the gospel of our salvation. Note the word, after." AFTER we hear the truth, we are expected to TRUST in the word we heard, AFTER that we are to BELIEVE, then we are given an earnest, God's pledge to sent us the holy Spirit of promise.

Lets see if I have may ducks in a row. First we must hear the word, then trust in that word, then we are to believe by faith in that word, then we are given a taste of the gifts of the Holy Spirit of promise. We both would agree that no-one can be a child of God unless they are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

So what is expected of those who are hear, and trust? Its the sacrifice of our remaining years to Jesus Christ.  As a servant of Jesus, we are said to have freedom in Christ, yet as servants, we serve Him freely for the remainder or our lives.

John 6:27, "Labor not for the meat (food) which perisheth, but for that meat (food) which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son shall give to you: for him hath God the Father sealed." We are to work, to produce fruit for Jesus Christ.

Those at the end of their lives who are found to bear the seal of truth in that day of judgment, those who finished the race with the truth, believe, not going either left or right shall be given a crown.

Jerrod, our salvation is a life long walk in the faith. Paul describes our lives with Jesus Christ as a race, a race that many start, but few finish. 1 Cor.9:24, "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain."

With Heb.12:1, "Let us run with patience the race that is set before us." We must show endurance." Patience here means, perseverance, constancy, under suffering, in faith and duty; Its projects the idea of a perpetual walk. The following verse pretty much underscores this thinking,

2 Tim.4:6-7-8, Paul said, "The time of my departure (death) is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have FINISHED my course (race,) I have KEPT the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

Hope this explains,

Phil LaSpino

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #7 on: Thu Jan 13, 2011 - 10:44:18 »
The following has been downloaded from www.seekfirstwisdom.com

Man's eternal security has been, and will continue to be a controversial subject. There are opinions, then there are Biblical facts.  

Question; If a person once professing faith in Jesus Christ, then willfully rejects that which he had once professed (if this is possible) can they ever be restored to the faith? A favored verse used as proof is,  

Heb.6:4-5-6,  "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

Following are the Greek words (highlighted above) that should shed light on the subject.  If Heb.6, is correctly understood, it will clear up any mis-givings on the subject of, "Once saved always saved."

The verses to be discussed are found in, Heb.6:4-6. I have enlarged the words under discussion.

Heb.6:4-6,  "For it is impossible for those who were ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and have TASTED of the heavenly gifts, and were made PARTAKERS of the Holy Ghost, and have TASTED the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, IF they shall fall away, to RENEW them again unto repentance.

1.  The Greek word, "Once:" Greek is, hapax. Its a adverb of time, once, as a Metaphor, meaning once for all, already, formerly,

2.  "Enlightened"  Synonyms and similarities are,  Light, Lighten: Lightened: Lighteth:   Greek is photizo. To light, to lighten. When a person is said to be, "Once enlightened?"  That person is said to be thoroughly instructed in the nature and design of the Gospel of Christ. That person having received the knowledge of the truth. Compare the following verses.

As a metaphors, common form. Of persons, to light, to enlighten, to impart moral and spiritual light to any one, to enlighten the mind of mental eyes of any one. See how the word is used in other passages of Scripture. To enlighten is from the "light," as seen below.
 
John 1:9,  "That the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."  

Passive expressing action, or the effect of an action of some agent.  Eph.1:18, "The eyes of your understanding being enlightened."

To have, "Tasted of the heavenly gift."  The Greek word,  "Tasted," is used as a metaphor, to experience, to prove, to partake of what?  

Heb.6:5, "The good word of God." To taste is used also in,

 Matt.16:28,  "There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death." To taste of death, as in to die,

Heb.2:9,  "That He (Jesus) by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

John 8:52,  "If a man keep my sayings, he shall never taste of death."

So Heb.6:4,  "Having tasted of the heavenly gifts."  Seq. or present participle of sequel, to follow, "That," 1 Pet.2:3, "If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious." Sept. for Heb. Ps.34:8, "O taste and see that the LORD is good."

To be made, "Partakers of the Holy Ghost" The Greek word, "partakers,"

"Partakers."  Greek is, metochos.  Adj. partaking, substantive, meaning a part of speech which expresses something that exists.  A partaker,

Heb.3:1, "Partakers of the heavenly calling," with ver.14, "For we are made partakers of Christ."

Heb.6:4, 12:8, "If ye be without chastisement, where of all are partakers."  

Partakers the sense of partner, companion, fellow,

Luke 5:7,  "They beckoned unto their partners."

Heb.1:9,  "God hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows," quoted from Ps.45:8, where Sept. for Heb. "fellows" (companions.)"

It is impossible to, "To renew them again" Greek for renew is, anakainizo. Future,  "Doubtless," To renew to restore to its former state, trans. pp. Sept. "Renewest," Ps. 104:30.  In N.T. metaph. to renew, spoken of those who have fallen from the true faith, to bring back to repentance and their former faith, Heb. 6:6. Sept. Metaphor for, "Renewed," Ps.103:5.

5.  "If they shall fall away."

The Greek word for "If," is, "ean."  Conjunct. (for Greek, "ei," meaning, if perhaps, forasmuch, that,  and Greek "an," meaning, what where whence. It differs from "ei," int that "ei," expresses a condition which is merely hypothetical, as a subjective possibility; while "ean," implies a condition which experiences must determine, as an objective possibility, and refers therefore always to something future. Compare,  "ei," with, "ean," in, 1 Cor.7:36, "But if (ei,) any man think." Rev.2:5. "Eav," "Except thou repent," is usually construed with the Subjective, meaning these internal states or thought or feelings. So, Subjective truths or reality is that which is verified by consciousness.

Heb.10:32,  "But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated (enlightened,)  ye endured a great fight of afflictions."  

The words illuminated, and enlightened, are the same Greek word.= (phitizo)  The idea of being enlightened infers, to enlighten, to impart moral and spiritual light to any one, to enlighten the mind, or mental eyes of any one.  That is, to have been thoroughly instructed, and to understand the knowledge of the word of truth.

Heb.10:26,  "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"  

This would have to be a deliberate denial of the Gospel message after having understanding its message, and having a conviction for the truth.  For this person, there remains no more sacrifice for sin. Heb.10:26, answers to both, Heb.6:4, and,

Heb.10:32, "Call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions."  

What is meant when it is said that a person has, "Tasted of the heavenly gift?"  Or has tasted for themselves, God's gifts.  We saw that the word, "Enlightened" refers to enlightening of the mind and mental eye.  This held true especially for those Jew's, and Gentiles, who were actual witnesses of the works of Christ, and the apostiles.  So the idea of a person who having tasted of the heavenly gifts follows.  It gives the idea of experiencing, proving, and partaking, of the finished work of Christ.

To be, "Made partakers of the Holy Spirit?" This implying that the Holy Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit, that we are God's children, and not the servants of others.  This assuring us of God's mercy and of His power to produce effects by the atonement through which we have received blessings.

Being, "Made partakers of the Holy Ghost," is distinct from, though inseparably connected with, "To be Enlightened," and with those who have,  "Tasted of the heavenly gifts."  That gift being Jesus Christ.  So the Holy Spirit witnesses with a man's spirit, assuring us of Illumination, and of the partaking of the God's gifts.

To have,  "Tasted the good word of God?"  We have proof of the merits of the promises of God, in the sending of the Gospel message.  The Gospel itself being the Good-Word, of a Good God.  Do you find the reading and preaching of the Gospel sweet in your mouth, music to your ears, and saving to your soul?   Do you have an appetite and thirst for the word of God.

Heb.6:6, the verse starts with, "If they shall fall away,"  This is an extreme falling away.  A full and willful apostasy is meant.  We are warned that such a falling would be the final result of retrogression, = (going back to our worldly ways.)

Heb.6:1,  "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God."  

"To renew them again?" means to make another confession of faith, or to again repent of sin, these being the first steps needed in our Christian walk. If a person is not truly repentant, being sorry is useless in itself.  Why? Any person who has rejected in part, or its whole, the works of Jesus Christ, has rejected  the only Sacrifice that can save them from eternal damnation.  Without true faith, their repentance would be useless, and their salvation impossible. For this reason, the apostle added, "Again,"  as in, To renew them again."

"Seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God?"  The Jewish authority, with the blessing of the Jewish people rejected Jesus on the grounds that He was an imposter, agreeing that He was justly put to death.  Therefore it is said, "To crucify him to themselves."

Paul wrote in Gal.6:14,  "God forbid that I = (Paul) should glory, save = (except) in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me."  Paul is saying, because the Jews and Gentiles despise me, for that which I believe and trust, I Paul, despise them for what they believe and trust in.

Heb.10:29,  "Of how much sorer = (worse) punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden = (trampled)  under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, = (common) and hath done despite = (insult)  unto the Spirit of grace?"

The phrase, "The Son of God"  marks Jesus dignity.  To trample, to insult, or make the crucifixion seem trivial, is to reveal the whole of a person's contempt and blasphemous remarks, after having once received the truth.

What does it mean when its states, "Put Him = (Jesus) to an open shame?"  Its to mock, or make a public example of Jesus. What the Jews did outwardly at Jesus crucifixion, are what blasphemers do inwardly, virtually crucifying the Son of God over, and over again. This verse seems to imply that a person may appear to be renewed, but in their heart, they are not, and will eventually fall again into a sinful life.

The conclusion,

The truth of one's salvation lies in their hearts. Only God can know the depth of a man's love. Those who are not of Christ, are cast off as a dead branch; but those who live in Him become free from the grip of sin.

Phil LaSpino


LaSpino---

As Jaime mentioned on another thread OSAS has been debated for ages----and so has Hebrews 6:4-6.  Please compare Hebrews 6:4-6 with Hebrews 6:10.    Why doesn't the writer just clearly say "It is impossible for those who were ONCE SAVED.."?  

In Hebrews 6:10 he says "We are persuaded better things of you BRETHREN, and things that accompany SALVATION, though we are speaking this way". He uses the word SALVATION when referring to the believers he is addressing--where he doesn't when referring to the experience of the others.  He refers to the people in Heb,. 6:4-6 as "those"---yet refers to the people in Heb. 6:10 as
"brethren".   He is clearly calling one group "saved" (Heb. 6:10).   He is making a clear distinction between two groups of people.

I agree with commentators who argue these are people who were "enlightened" in the sense that they came under the conviction and knowledge of their condition by the Spirit, but "refused" to accept salvation.  They tasted it and didn't like it----they were "partakers" in the sense that the Spirit worked on their hearts.  I truly do not believe Heb. 6:4-6 is referring to anyone who has truly been born-again.

Just my opinion of course.  ::smile::

Offline pureinheart

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #8 on: Thu Jan 13, 2011 - 11:26:59 »
If there is no assurance, then why would God give us a down payment?

Eph 1:13-14 - In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

ear·nest    /ˈɜrnɪst/  [ur-nist] 
–noun
1. a portion of something, given or done in advance as a pledge of the remainder.
2. Law . earnest money.


In bold, this is the scripture that defines eternal security for me. If you go back to the day that this was written, a seal  could not be broken...this is why the term "seal" is used.


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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #8 on: Thu Jan 13, 2011 - 11:26:59 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #9 on: Thu Jan 13, 2011 - 11:29:06 »
I have a question Fish, if one of those people died 1 minute after 'tasting' and before "spitting out the hook",  where would they spend eternity? My contention is taste always refers to experience, as in Christ tasting death. He didn't dabble in it, he experienced every bit of it, except of course the permanence of it. These people experienced the Heavenly gift enough to BE saved, If not, why not?

Plus, as I asked in the other thread, why didn't God complete his work in the folks in Hebrews 6:4-6? I say he did. Just as he did with Adam and Eve, and THEY screwed up His perfect work, which he completed.
« Last Edit: Thu Jan 13, 2011 - 12:13:22 by Jaime »

Offline fish153

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #10 on: Thu Jan 13, 2011 - 14:45:42 »
I have a question Fish, if one of those people died 1 minute after 'tasting' and before "spitting out the hook",  where would they spend eternity? My contention is taste always refers to experience, as in Christ tasting death. He didn't dabble in it, he experienced every bit of it, except of course the permanence of it. These people experienced the Heavenly gift enough to BE saved, If not, why not?

Plus, as I asked in the other thread, why didn't God complete his work in the folks in Hebrews 6:4-6? I say he did. Just as he did with Adam and Eve, and THEY screwed up His perfect work, which he completed.

Please refer to my post in the "good works" thread.  These people are spoken of in the Parable of the Sower---and they are not truly regenerated people.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #11 on: Thu Jan 13, 2011 - 15:32:21 »
The people in soil no 2 are Christians with little faith that fell away. Just like the people in Heb 6.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #12 on: Thu Jan 13, 2011 - 15:35:10 »
If they sprouted and took root, even shallow root, they were regenerated. They fell away. They attained the place fall from. There is no truly involved, it is either or. Deep or shallow.

Offline gospel

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #13 on: Thu Jan 13, 2011 - 15:49:34 »
The people in soil no 2 are Christians with little faith that fell away. Just like the people in Heb 6.

There are no people in Hebrews 6

Again the parable of the sower is about the Word and what it will do when properly understood and cultivated in one's heart

It is not about losing salvation it's about hearing and understanding...and those only come by revelation.

Which is what is meant by the reference Jesus made to Isaiah 6:9 

And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

If you do not hear the gospel under the empowerment, the anointing of the Holy Spirit with spiritual ears, you may indeed hear it but you will not understand it.

The scripture goes on to say as did Jesus
If they were able to hear and see by natural ability he would HAVE TO turn to heal them as well as we who have received by the Spirit

Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.

The point being God requires we receive by revelation and not natural reasoning.

Natural reason and natural perception was required in the OT especially in the wilderness, hence burning bushes, pillars of fire, thunderings

Because of their spiritual condition or lack thereof, lacking faith physical manifestation
was all the children of Israel were capable of discerning...

Now that the Promise of the Spirit has been given....well, you get the point

Bottom line this passage again is not about salvation, attaining it or losing it rather it is about understanding what Jesus is saying about the Kingdom

Unfortunately though many, even today do not


 
« Last Edit: Thu Jan 13, 2011 - 16:04:09 by gospel »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #14 on: Thu Jan 13, 2011 - 15:56:11 »
Who were those who tasted the heavenly gift, a herd of alpacas?

Offline gospel

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #15 on: Thu Jan 13, 2011 - 16:08:37 »
Who were those who tasted the heavenly gift, a herd of alpacas?

You're not reading my responses are you?

If you had you would know by now

Hebrews 6 is a supposition its not about any specific person, group of people or an actual event

Its not even about losing salvation it is actually about the Power and surety of Jesus Sacrifice the impossibility of finding yourself in a position where Jesus would need to Crucified again to save you.

Ironically the exact opposite of what you are trying to say  ::shrug::

Offline Joyfullee

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #16 on: Thu Jan 13, 2011 - 16:11:01 »
1 Thes. 5:19  Quench not the Spirit.

Quench means to put out.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #17 on: Thu Jan 13, 2011 - 16:16:21 »
Gospel, I read your posts, and whether they are actual or hyoothetical doesn't matter.

Offline gospel

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #18 on: Thu Jan 13, 2011 - 16:27:36 »
Gospel, I read your posts, and whether they are actual or hyoothetical doesn't matter.

 It does matter, the writer IS NOT....

1. talking about losing salvation

2. talking about anyone or any specific person or group of people who have lost salvation

3. trying to make a point about the possibility of losing salvation

He is presenting a supposition to make a more profound point of the certainty and surety of Jesus shed Blood and One Time Sacrifice as a contrast to the tenuous uncertainty of the daily rituals of the old covenant

The general tenor of Hebrews is speaking to Hebrews about what is better about The New Covenant than the old way they are used to

Suggesting it implies salvation can be lost goes totally against the grain of the purpose of the epistle!

You should know this  ::reading::

Offline Jaime

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #19 on: Thu Jan 13, 2011 - 17:04:06 »
Gospel, I disagree, for the reasons I have previously set forth. And your comment that I should know this added nothing to your response.
« Last Edit: Thu Jan 13, 2011 - 17:18:15 by Jaime »

Offline gospel

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #20 on: Thu Jan 13, 2011 - 19:10:06 »
Gospel, I disagree, for the reasons I have previously set forth. And your comment that I should know this added nothing to your response.

Ok what leads you to believe the topic of Hebrews 6 is losing salvation?


 ....nevermind

I'll just say the chapter closes as follows, some versions have this heading of something similar  The Certainty of God’s Promise


Hebrews 6

13When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself,

14saying, “I will surely bless you and give you many descendants.
« Last Edit: Thu Jan 13, 2011 - 19:18:28 by gospel »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #21 on: Thu Jan 13, 2011 - 19:48:58 »
Gospel one of the major themes of the entire book of Hebrews is Apostasy. That is undeniable. Of course we can continue to debate about what apostasy is.

I don't see verses 13 thru 20 as contradicting or ratifying the theme of apostasy in the earlier verses of chapter 6.
« Last Edit: Thu Jan 13, 2011 - 20:17:38 by Jaime »

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #22 on: Thu Jan 13, 2011 - 20:00:47 »
Fish, I just came from a 4 hr. discussion with a Jehovah Witness elder. Had him on his heels when I left, so I am tired tonight. 

Not sure what your asking. You used the word 'Brethren," my Bible reads, Beloved." They are not the same Greek.

What do you mean by brethren, it has a wide range of uses. Beloved is spoken only of Christians, as united with God, or with each other, in the bonds of holy love.

Pureinheart. I broke the verse down completely. I wish it were as you say, but the verse dictates a five step approach. First we must HEAR the word, then TRUST in the word, then we are to BELIEVE by faith in that word, then we are given a TASTE of the gifts of the Holy Spirit of promise.

And lastly, we need to take these things, get into the race of life, avoid all the temptations, traps, snares, and pitfalls of the devil, and FINISH the race of life. Then and only then will you be sealed. Anyone can partake of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but they can fall away. Only when the race of life is finished will the Holy Spirit put his stamp of aprovial on us.

Like the LORD to cain, "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his (Satan's) desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

Phil LaSpino

Offline Debrah

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #23 on: Thu Jan 13, 2011 - 20:13:03 »
passages that say you can give back your salvation:

"Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, IF you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off." (Romans 11)
-------------
"By this gospel you are saved, IF you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15)
-------------
But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— IF you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. (Colossians 1)
--------------
But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, IF we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast. (Hebrew 3)
---------------
‘He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS; He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels (Rev. 2 &3)
-----------------
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #24 on: Fri Jan 14, 2011 - 06:43:33 »
The writer of the book of Hebrews, in Hebrews 6, identifies those he is speaking about with five characteristics.

(1) They are "enlightened", i.e., the possess true knowledge and understanding of the gospel.
(2) The "have tasted of the heavenly gift", the gift of salvation in general (Eph 2:8-9).
(3) They "have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit", having drunk the living water (John 7:37-39; 1 Cor 12:13).
(4) They "have tasted the good word of God", having believed and received its promises.
(5) They have tasted "the posers of the age to come", referring to the already experienced resurrection from spiritual death (Eph 2:5; Col 2:12-13), in anticipation of the future redemptive resurrection of the body.

There really is no way to argue that these five characteristics can identify any others except the saved.

The word "taste" in these verses does not imply a tentative, aborted sampling of salvation in contrast with actual eating or consuming.  In Hebrews 2:9, the same word is used for Christ's "tasting death" on the cross.  It is used to contrast the real but incomplete salvation experienced in the life with the fullness of salvation to be received in glory, in the same sense that the present gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit is but a pledge or down payment (earnest) of the full inheritance that is to come (2 Cor 1:22; Eph 1:13-14).

The fact that those to whom this passage speaks are true Christins is also shown in the statement that, if they fall away, "it is impossible to renew them again to repentance"  (v.6).  To speak of renewing them again to repentance indicates that they were once in a state of repentance, indicative of salvation (2 Pet 3:9).

On the one hand, besides having clearly identified these as having been saved, it is also clear, on the other hand, that this passage warns against the reality of becoming totally lost as opposed to simply losing one's rewards.  Verse 6 warns against becoming "fallen away", a state devoid of repentance and hostile to Christ.  The fallen one's life yields "thorns and thistles"; it is "worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned (v.8; John 15:6)

This passage is completely contrary to the OSAS concept. It cannot in all honesty of reading and interpretation be explained away as referring only to people who were never saved in the first place, nor can they be reduced to the loss of rewards, rather than of salvation as such.  Nor can we say that they are merely hypothetical warnings, by which God motivates us to remain faithful by threatening us with a scenario that in actuality could never occur.  Such a ploy would be deceitful and cruel and is unworthy of our gracious and loving Savior.

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #25 on: Fri Jan 14, 2011 - 16:11:37 »
To those who teach, "Once saved always saved," how do you talk you way out of the following,

Peter is speaking about false prophets among the people, he writes,

2 Pet.2:20, If after they (professing Christians) have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are AGAIN entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."

Entangled means to get involved again with the pollutions of the world. Note "Pollutions." Pollutions in the Greek means, stained, in a moral sense, to turn back to defiled things.

Note the word "Again." Greek is, epistrepho." It means to turn back upon, to return unto. As a past participle, which expresses a completed action, and a present participle, sequel,  "Return back."  And absolute, total, complete.

The following is self explaining.

Ver.21, "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. Ver.22, But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

Phil LaSpino

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #26 on: Sat Jan 15, 2011 - 06:07:49 »
Another verse that proves, "Once saved always saved is a false teaching." This evidence is building against this teaching. After you read this, go back and read my first post on Heb.6:4-5-6.

The following has been downloaded from my web-site, www.seekfirstwisdom.com 

1 Tim.6:9-10, "But they that will be rich FALL INTO temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

Note: To fall into temptation, (above) after they had erred in the faith, (below.)

Ver.10, For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while SOME coveted AFTER, they have ERRED FROM THE FAITH, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.  Again note, "after, they have erred from the faith."

"Erred," is to be Seduce. Greek is, apoplanao. To cause to wander FROM, to lead astray to lead from the right way. To be seduce, to be deceive, trans. Passive: Expressing action, or the effect of an action of some agent. And as a Metaphor, To go astray from, as in to swerve FROM, to apostatize, Septuigent, Prov.7:21, "She forced = (seduced) him,"  Prov.7:21.

So, to "fall into," with the primary idea of motion into any place or thing, and then also of motion or direction to, towards, upon, any place, or thing. Those who are lovers of money, who have "ERRED FROM THE FAITH, and pierced themselves through."

Couple this with, my last post,

2 Pet.2:20, If after they (professing Christians) have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are AGAIN entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."

Entangled means to get involved again with the pollutions of the world. Note "Pollutions." Pollutions in the Greek means, stained, in a moral sense, to turn back to defiled things.

Note the word "Again." Greek is, epistrepho." It means to turn back upon, to return unto. As a past participle, which expresses a completed action, and a present participle, sequel,  "Return back."  And absolute, total, complete.

The following is self explaining.

Ver.21, "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than, AFTER they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. Ver.22, But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

Phil LaSpino


Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #27 on: Sun Jan 16, 2011 - 07:41:25 »
Here is further Biblical proof that, "Once saved always saved," is a false teaching.

Gal.1:6, Paul writes, I marvel that ye are so soon removed (having deserted) from him (the Father) that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel."

To be removed, is a Middle term of syllogism. One with which the two extremes are separately compared, and by means of which they are brought together in the conclusion, in other words, from faith, to another gospel. To be removed is to transfer oneself, to go over from one side, or party to another. Sequel, to fall away from one to another.

So what is Paul talking about? He is speaking to those who were once in Christ, who knew the gospel of Jesus Christ, and have now fallen away, and follow (Another) gospel. Clear, simple, and to the point. Once saved always saved, is nonsense.

Phil LaSpino

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #28 on: Mon Jan 17, 2011 - 08:58:04 »
Following are three more reasons why "Once saved always saved," is a false teaching. 

2 Tim.3:1-4, "In the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves --- traitors." Ver.5, "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power." 

What is a traitor? Greek is, prodotes. Its one who betrayer, as was Judas. One who betrays the trust of others, false to their duties, and obligations as Christians. They betray God, they betray Christians, they have fallen from the faith.

They "Having the form Of," Form, Greek is, morphosis.  It means, having the appearance, as mere external form, an instructor of the foolish, -- which hast the form (appearance) of knowledge."

Secondly there is,

1 Tim.3:5-6, "For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God? Ver.6, Not a novice (new convert) lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil."

Fall in Greek here is, "empipto." "Fall into,"  means to fall into place, as in a pit; fall in with thieves; fall into a state, or condition; into the condemnation of the devil, reproach, temptation, mischief.

Novice, young men and women, without the experience in life, well meaning, but easily swayed into submitting to the temptations of the world. Pride resulted in the fall of Satan, and has taken with it, many men, and women of the faith.

#3 Paul is speaking to believers,

2 Tim.2:16-19, "Shun profane and vain babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their word will eat as does a canker (cancer:)  Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some."

To error here is to swerve, to miss the mark,  795. Greek is, astocheo.

"To overthrow the faith," is to overturn, to destroy, subvert. Greek is, anatrepo. To overturn, transitive verb, expressing a completed action. and that action having passed from an agent to the object. Septuagint means to, "Destroy," Ps.118:12.

Christian of the faith can be overcome, falling from the faith, being deceived by the false teaching of others.

Phil LaSpino

Offline Thankfulldad

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #29 on: Mon Jan 17, 2011 - 09:52:16 »
Here is further Biblical proof that, "Once saved always saved," is a false teaching.

Gal.1:6, Paul writes, I marvel that ye are so soon removed (having deserted) from him (the Father) that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel."

Another gospel would be one of works...one of self gain...one of selfishness...one of foolishness...one of the world (I must do my part); not "the only one true gospel" of the pure grace through faith in the sacrifice for all sins through the death on the cross of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Offline Thankfulldad

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #30 on: Mon Jan 17, 2011 - 10:15:58 »
To those who teach, "Once saved always saved," how do you talk you way out of the following,

Peter is speaking about false prophets among the people, he writes,

2 Pet.2:20, If after they (professing Christians) have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are AGAIN entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."

Entangled means to get involved again with the pollutions of the world. Note "Pollutions." Pollutions in the Greek means, stained, in a moral sense, to turn back to defiled things.

Note the word "Again." Greek is, epistrepho." It means to turn back upon, to return unto. As a past participle, which expresses a completed action, and a present participle, sequel,  "Return back."  And absolute, total, complete.

The following is self explaining.

Ver.21, "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. Ver.22, But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

Phil LaSpino

Peter is warning us to not listen to false teachers; rather we should grow in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  Also...that God has given us great and precious promises...so that we might participate with His divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

It is comforting to "know" we have God in us...to protect us and keep us safe.  With His Spirit in us...He is the power to add to our faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self control; and to self-control, persevereance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love.

Peter encourages us to make our calling and election sure...for when we do these things, we will never fall.  God has us...His Spirit is with us...I trust in Him and Him alone.

Where do you put your trust....human effort (which is nearsighted and blind) or God with us (sealed with His Spirit)...where we will increase in knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

« Last Edit: Mon Jan 17, 2011 - 10:25:08 by Thankfulldad »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #31 on: Mon Jan 17, 2011 - 10:51:35 »
Here is further Biblical proof that, "Once saved always saved," is a false teaching.

Gal.1:6, Paul writes, I marvel that ye are so soon removed (having deserted) from him (the Father) that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel."

Another gospel would be one of works...one of self gain...one of selfishness...one of foolishness...one of the world (I must do my part); not "the only one true gospel" of the pure grace through faith in the sacrifice for all sins through the death on the cross of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

And another gospel would be one of once saved, always saved.

Offline Thankfulldad

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #32 on: Mon Jan 17, 2011 - 10:59:17 »
Here is further Biblical proof that, "Once saved always saved," is a false teaching.

Gal.1:6, Paul writes, I marvel that ye are so soon removed (having deserted) from him (the Father) that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel."

Another gospel would be one of works...one of self gain...one of selfishness...one of foolishness...one of the world (I must do my part); not "the only one true gospel" of the pure grace through faith in the sacrifice for all sins through the death on the cross of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

And another gospel would be one of once saved, always saved.

Colossians 3:1-4...Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.  2Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

Once saved always saved is not the gospel...just as works is not the gospel.  Jesus, He is more then an example...He is the gospel of God; the promise of God...our only Hope.

Offline xheathen

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #33 on: Tue Jan 18, 2011 - 07:07:45 »
Another verse that proves, "Once saved always saved is a false teaching." This evidence is building against this teaching. After you read this, go back and read my first post on Heb.6:4-5-6.

Phil LaSpino



Good post Phil

For once we're on the same side. It's been my observation that the osas side will try to get the debate sidetracked to a works issue instead of staying on topic. 

May Jesus smile on you today.

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #34 on: Tue Jan 18, 2011 - 09:29:26 »
Two more verses that teach "Once saved always saved," is not a teaching of the Bible, or of Jesus Christ.

Gal.5:4, "Christ is become of none effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are FALLEN FROM grace."

Fallen, Greek is, ekipipto. To fall out of, to fall from, or off, intransitive verb. which expresses action, and that is limited to the agent. To fall from any state, or condition, as in to lose one's part, or interest in that state; seq. Generally, as to fall from grace.

Grace and legal righteousness cannot co-exist. To those who believe there is a higher efficiency, or a greater degree of perfection that can be gained in doing the works of the law are called, "foolish Galatians." Gal.3:3, "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the (Holy) Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Paul calls these, "foolish Galatian." 

This attitude is not unique to the Galatians in Paul's day. Its an attitude that prevails in the church today, as many attempt to work for their salvation by their own hand. If anyone believes their works, will work toward their salvation, then as Paul writes, "Ye are fallen from grace."

Our commission from Jesus Christ is to go out into the world and to preach the good news of the kingdom.

2 Pet.3:17, "Beware lest ye also, being LED AWAY with the error of the wicked, FALL FROM your own steadfastness."

The Greek word for, "led" is, sunapago. In the N.T. to be led is only Passive, expressing action, or the effect of an action of some agent. Used as a metaphor, to be led, or carried away with any thing; mostly in a bad sense, as to be led astray, common use, dative, meaning some act directed to an object.

To be led away in "Error." Error here is an active verb, meaning, deceit, fraud, seduction to error, and sin. False teachers lie in wait to deceive, and to seduce.

To fall, means to stumble, error, fail.

Phil LaSpino The Greek comes from my web-site, www.seekfirstwisdom.com

 

     
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