GCM Home | Bible Search | Rules | Donate | Bookstore | RSS | Facebook | Twitter

Author Topic: Eternal security, yes, or no?  (Read 52405 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2011, 03:08:37 PM »
Who were those who tasted the heavenly gift, a herd of alpacas?

You're not reading my responses are you?

If you had you would know by now

Hebrews 6 is a supposition its not about any specific person, group of people or an actual event

Its not even about losing salvation it is actually about the Power and surety of Jesus Sacrifice the impossibility of finding yourself in a position where Jesus would need to Crucified again to save you.

Ironically the exact opposite of what you are trying to say  ::shrug::

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2011, 03:08:37 PM »

Offline Joyfullee

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1299
  • Manna: 64
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2011, 03:11:01 PM »
1 Thes. 5:19  Quench not the Spirit.

Quench means to put out.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2011, 03:11:01 PM »

Online Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • King James Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24905
  • Manna: 522
  • Gender: Male
  • The Oil Patch is Crude
    • View Profile
Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2011, 03:16:21 PM »
Gospel, I read your posts, and whether they are actual or hyoothetical doesn't matter.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2011, 03:16:21 PM »

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2011, 03:27:36 PM »
Gospel, I read your posts, and whether they are actual or hyoothetical doesn't matter.

 It does matter, the writer IS NOT....

1. talking about losing salvation

2. talking about anyone or any specific person or group of people who have lost salvation

3. trying to make a point about the possibility of losing salvation

He is presenting a supposition to make a more profound point of the certainty and surety of Jesus shed Blood and One Time Sacrifice as a contrast to the tenuous uncertainty of the daily rituals of the old covenant

The general tenor of Hebrews is speaking to Hebrews about what is better about The New Covenant than the old way they are used to

Suggesting it implies salvation can be lost goes totally against the grain of the purpose of the epistle!

You should know this  ::reading::

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2011, 03:27:36 PM »

Online Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • King James Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24905
  • Manna: 522
  • Gender: Male
  • The Oil Patch is Crude
    • View Profile
Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2011, 04:04:06 PM »
Gospel, I disagree, for the reasons I have previously set forth. And your comment that I should know this added nothing to your response.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 04:18:15 PM by Jaime »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2011, 04:04:06 PM »



Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2011, 06:10:06 PM »
Gospel, I disagree, for the reasons I have previously set forth. And your comment that I should know this added nothing to your response.

Ok what leads you to believe the topic of Hebrews 6 is losing salvation?


 ....nevermind

I'll just say the chapter closes as follows, some versions have this heading of something similar  The Certainty of God’s Promise


Hebrews 6

13When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself,

14saying, “I will surely bless you and give you many descendants.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 06:18:28 PM by gospel »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2011, 06:10:06 PM »

Online Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • King James Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24905
  • Manna: 522
  • Gender: Male
  • The Oil Patch is Crude
    • View Profile
Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2011, 06:48:58 PM »
Gospel one of the major themes of the entire book of Hebrews is Apostasy. That is undeniable. Of course we can continue to debate about what apostasy is.

I don't see verses 13 thru 20 as contradicting or ratifying the theme of apostasy in the earlier verses of chapter 6.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 07:17:38 PM by Jaime »

Offline LaSpino3

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
  • Manna: 83
    • View Profile
Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2011, 07:00:47 PM »
Fish, I just came from a 4 hr. discussion with a Jehovah Witness elder. Had him on his heels when I left, so I am tired tonight. 

Not sure what your asking. You used the word 'Brethren," my Bible reads, Beloved." They are not the same Greek.

What do you mean by brethren, it has a wide range of uses. Beloved is spoken only of Christians, as united with God, or with each other, in the bonds of holy love.

Pureinheart. I broke the verse down completely. I wish it were as you say, but the verse dictates a five step approach. First we must HEAR the word, then TRUST in the word, then we are to BELIEVE by faith in that word, then we are given a TASTE of the gifts of the Holy Spirit of promise.

And lastly, we need to take these things, get into the race of life, avoid all the temptations, traps, snares, and pitfalls of the devil, and FINISH the race of life. Then and only then will you be sealed. Anyone can partake of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but they can fall away. Only when the race of life is finished will the Holy Spirit put his stamp of aprovial on us.

Like the LORD to cain, "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his (Satan's) desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

Phil LaSpino

Offline Debrah

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1478
  • Manna: 113
    • View Profile
Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2011, 07:13:03 PM »
passages that say you can give back your salvation:

"Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, IF you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off." (Romans 11)
-------------
"By this gospel you are saved, IF you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15)
-------------
But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— IF you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. (Colossians 1)
--------------
But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, IF we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast. (Hebrew 3)
---------------
‘He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS; He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels (Rev. 2 &3)
-----------------
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2011, 07:13:03 PM »

Offline Jimmy

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14574
  • Manna: 294
    • View Profile
Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2011, 05:43:33 AM »
The writer of the book of Hebrews, in Hebrews 6, identifies those he is speaking about with five characteristics.

(1) They are "enlightened", i.e., the possess true knowledge and understanding of the gospel.
(2) The "have tasted of the heavenly gift", the gift of salvation in general (Eph 2:8-9).
(3) They "have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit", having drunk the living water (John 7:37-39; 1 Cor 12:13).
(4) They "have tasted the good word of God", having believed and received its promises.
(5) They have tasted "the posers of the age to come", referring to the already experienced resurrection from spiritual death (Eph 2:5; Col 2:12-13), in anticipation of the future redemptive resurrection of the body.

There really is no way to argue that these five characteristics can identify any others except the saved.

The word "taste" in these verses does not imply a tentative, aborted sampling of salvation in contrast with actual eating or consuming.  In Hebrews 2:9, the same word is used for Christ's "tasting death" on the cross.  It is used to contrast the real but incomplete salvation experienced in the life with the fullness of salvation to be received in glory, in the same sense that the present gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit is but a pledge or down payment (earnest) of the full inheritance that is to come (2 Cor 1:22; Eph 1:13-14).

The fact that those to whom this passage speaks are true Christins is also shown in the statement that, if they fall away, "it is impossible to renew them again to repentance"  (v.6).  To speak of renewing them again to repentance indicates that they were once in a state of repentance, indicative of salvation (2 Pet 3:9).

On the one hand, besides having clearly identified these as having been saved, it is also clear, on the other hand, that this passage warns against the reality of becoming totally lost as opposed to simply losing one's rewards.  Verse 6 warns against becoming "fallen away", a state devoid of repentance and hostile to Christ.  The fallen one's life yields "thorns and thistles"; it is "worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned (v.8; John 15:6)

This passage is completely contrary to the OSAS concept. It cannot in all honesty of reading and interpretation be explained away as referring only to people who were never saved in the first place, nor can they be reduced to the loss of rewards, rather than of salvation as such.  Nor can we say that they are merely hypothetical warnings, by which God motivates us to remain faithful by threatening us with a scenario that in actuality could never occur.  Such a ploy would be deceitful and cruel and is unworthy of our gracious and loving Savior.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2011, 05:43:33 AM »

Offline LaSpino3

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
  • Manna: 83
    • View Profile
Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2011, 03:11:37 PM »
To those who teach, "Once saved always saved," how do you talk you way out of the following,

Peter is speaking about false prophets among the people, he writes,

2 Pet.2:20, If after they (professing Christians) have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are AGAIN entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."

Entangled means to get involved again with the pollutions of the world. Note "Pollutions." Pollutions in the Greek means, stained, in a moral sense, to turn back to defiled things.

Note the word "Again." Greek is, epistrepho." It means to turn back upon, to return unto. As a past participle, which expresses a completed action, and a present participle, sequel,  "Return back."  And absolute, total, complete.

The following is self explaining.

Ver.21, "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. Ver.22, But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

Phil LaSpino

Offline LaSpino3

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
  • Manna: 83
    • View Profile
Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2011, 05:07:49 AM »
Another verse that proves, "Once saved always saved is a false teaching." This evidence is building against this teaching. After you read this, go back and read my first post on Heb.6:4-5-6.

The following has been downloaded from my web-site, www.seekfirstwisdom.com 

1 Tim.6:9-10, "But they that will be rich FALL INTO temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

Note: To fall into temptation, (above) after they had erred in the faith, (below.)

Ver.10, For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while SOME coveted AFTER, they have ERRED FROM THE FAITH, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.  Again note, "after, they have erred from the faith."

"Erred," is to be Seduce. Greek is, apoplanao. To cause to wander FROM, to lead astray to lead from the right way. To be seduce, to be deceive, trans. Passive: Expressing action, or the effect of an action of some agent. And as a Metaphor, To go astray from, as in to swerve FROM, to apostatize, Septuigent, Prov.7:21, "She forced = (seduced) him,"  Prov.7:21.

So, to "fall into," with the primary idea of motion into any place or thing, and then also of motion or direction to, towards, upon, any place, or thing. Those who are lovers of money, who have "ERRED FROM THE FAITH, and pierced themselves through."

Couple this with, my last post,

2 Pet.2:20, If after they (professing Christians) have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are AGAIN entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."

Entangled means to get involved again with the pollutions of the world. Note "Pollutions." Pollutions in the Greek means, stained, in a moral sense, to turn back to defiled things.

Note the word "Again." Greek is, epistrepho." It means to turn back upon, to return unto. As a past participle, which expresses a completed action, and a present participle, sequel,  "Return back."  And absolute, total, complete.

The following is self explaining.

Ver.21, "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than, AFTER they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. Ver.22, But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

Phil LaSpino


Offline LaSpino3

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
  • Manna: 83
    • View Profile
Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2011, 06:41:25 AM »
Here is further Biblical proof that, "Once saved always saved," is a false teaching.

Gal.1:6, Paul writes, I marvel that ye are so soon removed (having deserted) from him (the Father) that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel."

To be removed, is a Middle term of syllogism. One with which the two extremes are separately compared, and by means of which they are brought together in the conclusion, in other words, from faith, to another gospel. To be removed is to transfer oneself, to go over from one side, or party to another. Sequel, to fall away from one to another.

So what is Paul talking about? He is speaking to those who were once in Christ, who knew the gospel of Jesus Christ, and have now fallen away, and follow (Another) gospel. Clear, simple, and to the point. Once saved always saved, is nonsense.

Phil LaSpino

Offline LaSpino3

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
  • Manna: 83
    • View Profile
Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2011, 07:58:04 AM »
Following are three more reasons why "Once saved always saved," is a false teaching. 

2 Tim.3:1-4, "In the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves --- traitors." Ver.5, "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power." 

What is a traitor? Greek is, prodotes. Its one who betrayer, as was Judas. One who betrays the trust of others, false to their duties, and obligations as Christians. They betray God, they betray Christians, they have fallen from the faith.

They "Having the form Of," Form, Greek is, morphosis.  It means, having the appearance, as mere external form, an instructor of the foolish, -- which hast the form (appearance) of knowledge."

Secondly there is,

1 Tim.3:5-6, "For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God? Ver.6, Not a novice (new convert) lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil."

Fall in Greek here is, "empipto." "Fall into,"  means to fall into place, as in a pit; fall in with thieves; fall into a state, or condition; into the condemnation of the devil, reproach, temptation, mischief.

Novice, young men and women, without the experience in life, well meaning, but easily swayed into submitting to the temptations of the world. Pride resulted in the fall of Satan, and has taken with it, many men, and women of the faith.

#3 Paul is speaking to believers,

2 Tim.2:16-19, "Shun profane and vain babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their word will eat as does a canker (cancer:)  Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some."

To error here is to swerve, to miss the mark,  795. Greek is, astocheo.

"To overthrow the faith," is to overturn, to destroy, subvert. Greek is, anatrepo. To overturn, transitive verb, expressing a completed action. and that action having passed from an agent to the object. Septuagint means to, "Destroy," Ps.118:12.

Christian of the faith can be overcome, falling from the faith, being deceived by the false teaching of others.

Phil LaSpino

Offline Thankfulldad

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3081
  • Manna: 221
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2011, 08:52:16 AM »
Here is further Biblical proof that, "Once saved always saved," is a false teaching.

Gal.1:6, Paul writes, I marvel that ye are so soon removed (having deserted) from him (the Father) that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel."

Another gospel would be one of works...one of self gain...one of selfishness...one of foolishness...one of the world (I must do my part); not "the only one true gospel" of the pure grace through faith in the sacrifice for all sins through the death on the cross of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.