Author Topic: Eternal security, yes, or no? (Read 49478 times)

gospel · « **Reply #75 on:** January 19, 2011, 04:36:05 PM »

Quote from: Jimmy on January 19, 2011, 04:32:15 PM

Quote from: gospel on January 19, 2011, 04:18:31 PM
Quote from: Jimmy on January 19, 2011, 04:10:56 PM
Quote from: gospel on January 19, 2011, 03:31:20 PM
Quote from: Jimmy on January 19, 2011, 03:08:14 PM
Quote from: gospel on January 19, 2011, 02:53:35 PM
Quote from: Jimmy on January 19, 2011, 02:26:07 PM
Quote from: gospel on January 19, 2011, 02:14:22 PM
IF IT WERE POSSIBLE for someone who loves Jesus to stop loving Jesus...of course its possible but Highly Improbable as you know and I know and any adult should know

How improbable is Highly Improbable? What difference does the degree of improbability have to do with the discussion? Fish's point is that it is not just highly improbable, it is flat out impossible. His point is that Christ will not permit it under any circumstances.

Love is an emotion. Just as hate is an emotion. Just as fear, trust, joy, sadness, anger, etc. All are subject to the individual and can change.

I beseech you to stick with the bible definition of Love and adjure you not to minimize the Power of God's Love

I say this with All Due respect as much as I can "possibly" muster

What you or anyone else "thinks" Love is carries absolutely no credibility to me to the slightest degree if it disputes in any way what the bible says ....sorry

As far as playing word games with probable and highly probable I'll simply repeat by the measure of human wisdom and human reasoning anything is possible

But the bible doesn't teach that...sorry

For one
Its Impossible to please God without faith

For two
Its impossible for God to lie

For three
Its impossible for God's Word to return unto Him void without accomplishing all that he purposed it to do

Want more?

None of which is really of any consequence at all. Love is an emotion. Pure and simple. But I will give you a shot at it. What is the Bible definition of love?

Short answer

God is Love ...need I point out to you that your definition of Love as an emotion comes no where close to defining God

That was not a short answer. That was no answer. It was just more typical rambling on and on when you have no answer.

Yes God is love. But all love is not necessarily God.

Now, please -- What is your Bible definition of love?

I would think at this point if we are talking about Salvation WE ARE discussing Gods Love and only God's Love.

Why would you confuse a conversation like this by injecting into it an inference of eros, phileo or any other kind of love

You were the one who injected into it the inability of anyone who loved Christ to stop loving Christ. You are the one that is confused

And away we go!

This is what always happens when Jimmy runs out of valid pertinent points to make...we digress into an unproductive back and forth

I SAY IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO LOVE JESUS TODAY AND NOT LOVE HIM TOMORROW BECAUSE LOVE DOES NOT FAIL

( I'm shouting this time because I'm shouting to be heard above the din )

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #75 on:** January 19, 2011, 04:36:05 PM »

LaSpino3 · « **Reply #76 on:** January 19, 2011, 04:54:19 PM »

What is a sinner? Every living human being is born into sin, and needs a Saviour. We all begin the race for eternal glory, bathed in sin.

1. All men have inherited the sin of Adam. There are also many types of sin, and many ways to commit sin. Sin is to transgress the commandments of God, refusing to conform to His will.
2. If anyone say they are without sin, they call God a liar.
3. Even the creation groans.
4. There is a devil, and his disciples move to, and fro looking to destroy the truth of God, and anyone that tries to follow Him. Sin waits at our door.
5. How can we get out of this mess?
6. We needed a Saviour.
7. Now only God can forgive, and save us from our sins.
8. So God came to us in the flesh; He came to seek and to save the lost (that's all of us;) he gave his life for us; He rose from the grave; ascended into heaven; and will return for us.
10. What are the secrets to salvation? There is only one,
11. We are to believe by faith, the gospel of Jesus Christ.
12. So when we hear that the Son of God suffered, and died for our sins, and are moved to this, then we can go to the start line, and enter the race for eternal life.
13. Some who enter may be 10, some 20, 50, or 80, but all must begin at the starting line, and we all start with sin on us.
14. Once anyone enters the race, they are to persevere, this implies repentance, faithfulness to Christ, enduring to the end. The end of what? the end of our lives. And if a person is faithful to the voice of the Lord until the end, then will they be sealed unto eternal life, and receive their reward for finishing the race of faith.
15. Some may believe they are sealed at the start, and some in the middle of the race. But nothing is ever sealed until it is finished, be it a scroll, book, or our eternal salvation.
16. When the book of life is opened, and our name is found in it, we will receive our reward for the works we have done in this life for Christ.
16. These who finish the race, are called faithful and true.

On the other hand, there are those who never enter the race, and many that choose ot to begin the race. But for those that do, many will,

1. Have become again entangled with the things of the world.
2. Be snared by the wiles of the devil.
3. Fall again into error swerving away from the truth.
4. Begin to follow another gospel.
5. Turned back.
6. Some looking back at the world they left, and in their hearts, had never left the world.

Yes many start the race for eternal life with Jesus Christ, but as our Lord said, some will take the wide gate, and the broad way, their race ending in destruction, and many there are that go in that way.

But narrow is the way of the Lord, and straight is the gate which leads unto eternal life, "AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT."

Phil LaSpino

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #76 on:** January 19, 2011, 04:54:19 PM »

revmitchell · « **Reply #77 on:** January 19, 2011, 04:56:53 PM »

Quote from: Jimmy on January 19, 2011, 04:28:45 PM

The whole works thing is really bogus. The works that Paul spoke of was not the doing of something. He was speaking of works of the law, whether that law was the Law of Moses or otherwise. Believing, repenting, confessing etc are not works in the sense of Paul when he says not saved by works.

I agree

Quote

What are the warnings for endurance? That is what is the consequence of not heeding the warnings? Some here would argue that all such warning s were only about rewards not salvation. Now that is an assumption imposed on Scripture with no other support. Clearly the warnings, at least some, are concerned with the loss or the rejecting of salvation.

I have made it clear that I do not support that doctrine. There is no point in bringing it up when replying to me.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #77 on:** January 19, 2011, 04:56:53 PM »

gospel · « **Reply #78 on:** January 19, 2011, 05:24:05 PM »

Quote

One can argue that salvation can be given up. But the warnings for endurance in the faith do not support that notion. It is an assumption imposed on scripture with no other support

.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #78 on:** January 19, 2011, 05:24:05 PM »

Jimmy · « **Reply #79 on:** January 19, 2011, 05:43:11 PM »

Quote from: LaSpino3 on January 19, 2011, 04:54:19 PM

What is a sinner? Every living human being is born into sin, and needs a Saviour. We all begin the race for eternal glory, bathed in sin.

1. All men have inherited the sin of Adam.

Just exactly, how does that happen? I understand that I inherited many physical traits from by father, and he from his father and so on. How is it that we have inherited the sin of Adam? Did you inherit the sin from your father?

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #79 on:** January 19, 2011, 05:43:11 PM »

fish153 · « **Reply #80 on:** January 19, 2011, 05:54:00 PM »

Quote from: Jimmy on January 19, 2011, 02:04:17 PM

Quote from: fish153 on January 19, 2011, 12:12:41 PM
Quote from: Jimmy on January 19, 2011, 09:29:32 AM
Quote from: fish153 on January 19, 2011, 09:01:34 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on January 18, 2011, 03:51:53 PM
Quote from: fish153 on January 18, 2011, 03:29:04 PM
Quote from: LaSpino3 on January 18, 2011, 02:47:45 PM
Fish, Thanks for your imput. I understand what you are saying, but Paul does declare they had turned to another gospel, and that Christ had become of, No effect to them.

The word, "effect," means to render inactive, idle, useless, fruitless, of non-effect, and even as strong as destroy.

These people had turned back from the gospel of Jesus Christ to the works of the law. They had apostatized, and "fallen from grace." Now whether any of them ever came back to the gospel, we can not tell.

Phil LaSpino

I have to beg to differ I suppose. I think the very fact Paul addresses these people as "The Church in Galatia", with the idea that they will hear his letter read to them in the assembly shows they hadn't "apostasized". They had "fallen from Grace" in the sense that they had been deceived into believing their own efforts could complete something God started within them. They needed a direct rebuke and exhortation and that is what Paul was giving them---and it originated with the LORD Himself.

What troubles me in some of these threads (not necessarily your comments Phil) is that there seems to be far more faith in the ability of someone to fall away and lose their salvation, than there is in Christ's ability to Keep and Preserve His Own Sheep from doing so. He has after all committed himself to protect and care for his own sheep. Most shepherds do not make it a habit of allowing their own sheep to stray off and get killed by wolves---no matter how stupid and defiant the sheep are. The Shepherd has a rod and staff for that very purpose. The Good Shepherd will not allow any of His own to perish.

Shepherds also sheer their sheep and slaughter them for food and offered them up of sacrifice. In many cases, they controlled the breeding of the sheep to make sure they reproduced the best offspring. You should not insinuate more into the metaphor than was originally given, as you are obviously doing.

It has nothing to do with "faith in the ability of someone to fall away and lose their salvation". It is simply what the Bible says. That you refuse to acknowledge the clear meaning of such texts is a travesty in reading and interpreting what the Bible says.

I find more and more, particularly at forums such as this, unfortunately, is that determining what the Bible says and means has more to do with the theological background of the reader than just about anything else. That is certainly true where the subject of salvation and assurance of that salvation is concerned.

The passages of Scripture that LaSpino3, Degrah and others have posted are not difficult passages at all for the most part and clearly show the conditionality of staying saved.

Jimmy----

John 10:28.29 is very clear. The Lord Jesus uses the "Good Shepherd" for good reason and to cause to contemplate his love and his care for his own. For you to bring in shearing and slaughtering shows you have very little understanding of what God is trying to teach us. I have yet to here anyone refute John10:28,29 on this board, or to show how Jesus did not mean exactly what he said when he taught "I give my sheep ETERNAL LIFE and they shall NEVER PERISH" You just cannot change those verses to mean something else than what they are clearly teaching.

I am not bringing "my theology" into this at all. John 10:28.29 is so clear in it's teaching that you literally have to set it aside and hold onto verses that "seem" to imply differently-----and that is exactly what you are doing. Salvation is eternal and the Bible clearly teaches that. You just choose to think of shearing and slaughtering rather than the loving Grace of the Good Shepherd in preserving, and keeping his dear sheep, whom he "calls by name" and leads to pasture.

The very tone of your posts are always legalistic in nature. Have you ever really read John 10, or Psalm 103, or any of the other scriptures that speak of the deep love God has for his own children? Or do you only look for, and concentrate on verses that "seem" to imply He is not really as loving towards His children as He says He is?

Oh come on. Have I ever really read John 10 or Psalm 103? What sort of nonsense is that? You of all people should not ever allude to another not "really" reading anything in the Scriptures. What is ETERNAL LIFE? What do you think that means. What does NEVER PERISH mean?

Please define both for me.

And my reference to shearing and slaughtering were given only as an example to show how you engage the metaphors of the Bible to what ever extent you wish without regard for the original intent. It is the same thing that the RCC does in their analysis of the loaf of bread and cup of wine of the Lord's supper. It is the same thing that those promoting the gospel of prosperity do with much of what the Bible says about the benefits of being a Christian.

Or consider the following:

John 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

John 8:12 Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life."

John 10:9 "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies,

John 14:6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.

John 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing.

Those are the seven great I AMs of the gospel of John. Each one is presented as a metaphor. Each one could be extended, as you constantly do for the shepherd metaphor, beyond the point that Jesus was trying to make in each of them.

Consider, for example, John 6:35. How easy it would be to suggest that if you are ever hungry or thirsting then obviously you have not come to Jesus. You must be lost.

Or how about John 8:12. Using your method of extending the metaphor, one could argue that if you ever find yourself in darkness, in the absense of the sunlight, that you obviously are not following Jesus as you should and you are lost.

I could go on, but I hope I have made my point.

You have quite a problem with John 10:28,29:

"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I GIVE them eternal life, and they shall NEVER PERISH; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #80 on:** January 19, 2011, 05:54:00 PM »

fish153 · « **Reply #81 on:** January 19, 2011, 05:57:42 PM »

Quote from: Jimmy on January 19, 2011, 05:43:11 PM

Quote from: LaSpino3 on January 19, 2011, 04:54:19 PM
What is a sinner? Every living human being is born into sin, and needs a Saviour. We all begin the race for eternal glory, bathed in sin.

1. All men have inherited the sin of Adam.

Just exactly, how does that happen? I understand that I inherited many physical traits from by father, and he from his father and so on. How is it that we have inherited the sin of Adam? Did you inherit the sin from your father?

"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies". (PS. 58:3)

revmitchell · « **Reply #82 on:** January 19, 2011, 06:15:32 PM »

"chosen" does not negate a conscious decision on our part to move toward God when God imparts that ability to us. Nor should our decision be excluded from the equation.

gospel · « **Reply #83 on:** January 19, 2011, 06:16:56 PM »

Quote from: Jimmy on January 19, 2011, 05:43:11 PM

Quote from: LaSpino3 on January 19, 2011, 04:54:19 PM
What is a sinner? Every living human being is born into sin, and needs a Saviour. We all begin the race for eternal glory, bathed in sin.

1. All men have inherited the sin of Adam.

Just exactly, how does that happen? I understand that I inherited many physical traits from by father, and he from his father and so on. How is it that we have inherited the sin of Adam? Did you inherit the sin from your father?

How did you inherit Jesus righteousness?

BIRTH!

Spiritual birth

You, I all of us are identified with Adam through "natural descendancy" "bloodline" "legacy" and that by natural birth

What is born of the flesh is flesh...there's no escaping it

Your daddy is poor you are born poor spiritually speaking but as true as it is in the natural

Being born again is being born of the Spirit, you become rich, spiritually speaking

You must be born of the Spirit

Your natural daddy doesn't count in terms of who you are spiritually

because

From God's perspective there are only 2 men

ADAM and CHRIST

This, indeed, is what is written: "The first man, Adam, became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:45

How God sees you is based on your identification with either

Through our birth in the flesh we have our identification with Adam and through that we are seen as children of disobedience

Every person born into the world belongs to the world and is identified with Adam

Children are not sinless, they definitely sin but their sin is not imputed to them because they are innocent

Therefore the innocence of children is accounted to them as righteousness

Once they become accountable they must choose whom they will identify. They must choose to stay as they are or identify with Jesus through the New Birth

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:22

Through The New Birth, the birth by means of the Spirit of God we have our identification with Christ and through that we become Sons of God heirs of everything God possesses and coheirs of everything Jesus is entitled as a Son

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Romans 8:17

Galatians 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 4:7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #83 on:** January 19, 2011, 06:16:56 PM »

Jimmy · « **Reply #84 on:** January 20, 2011, 05:11:10 AM »

Quote from: fish153 on January 19, 2011, 05:57:42 PM

Quote from: Jimmy on January 19, 2011, 05:43:11 PM
Quote from: LaSpino3 on January 19, 2011, 04:54:19 PM
What is a sinner? Every living human being is born into sin, and needs a Saviour. We all begin the race for eternal glory, bathed in sin.

1. All men have inherited the sin of Adam.

Just exactly, how does that happen? I understand that I inherited many physical traits from by father, and he from his father and so on. How is it that we have inherited the sin of Adam? Did you inherit the sin from your father?

"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies". (PS. 58:3)

Come on Larry. Why did you quote only v.3? Let's look at v.4.

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.
Psa 58:4 They have venom like the venom of a serpent; Like a deaf cobra that stops up its ear,

Would you like to develop a theological stance around v.4? You know better than to pull a single verse out of the Bible and use it as you have done. Perhaps we should look at the entire Psalm and see what really marvelous theology we could develop. I mean, it could get to be fun. Silly but fun.

How about v. 10?

Psa 58:10 The righteous will rejoice when he sees the vengeance; He will wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

We ought to be able to make something out of that. I have heard of "foot washing" congregations. This could really spice that up a bit.

That you could even think that this is any sort of affirmation of sin inherited from Adam is really quite amazing. But it is typical of the sorts of quotes most give in support of original sin. A quick reading of the Psalm will, of course, show that then entire Psalm is an exercise in hyperbole and it is not to be interpreted literally.

But even so, that doesn't answer the question that I asked. If you think that we have inherited the sin of Adam, how does that happen? What mechanism of creation, did God impose that would transfer the sins of one onto another person. It isn't in the DNA or any other physical aspect of the human being. So how else would it happen?

Perhaps you should read what God actually said about such a thing. He devoted nearly an entire chapter about it. Read Ezekiel chapter 18, then get back to me about it.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #84 on:** January 20, 2011, 05:11:10 AM »

LaSpino3 · « **Reply #85 on:** January 20, 2011, 09:23:28 AM »

Paul is writing to Timothy to guard against false teachings coming into the Christian church.

1 Tim.1:6-7, " Some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling. Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. "

"Some," the number of false teachers that Paul is speaking of, is unknown.

To swerved: Greek is, astocheo. It means to missing the mark. As a metaphor, to miss, to err, to swerve from.

"Turned aside," Greek is, exautes. Adv. Literally from this time, as in forthwith, presently, immediately. Vain talking, empty words,

Neither understanding what they say, or affirm.

"Neither," Greek is, mete. meaning, not, also not; hence neither, not even. Conjunctive, a continuative referring usually rather to a part of a proposition or clause. In continued negation, at the beginning of a subsequent clause. Repeated, neither -- nor, before different parts of the same clause as in, 1 Tim.1:7.

Phil LaSpino

I am going to go out on a limb with the following comment.

Many refer to sheep, and the great Shepherd, Jesus Christ to prove their point that Christian's once saved, are always saved. Grab your concordance, and you will see that whenever sheep are mentioned, it is mentioned only in the gospels, they concerning the Jews only

Concerning Jesus as Shepherd, again making reference to the Jews alone, or quoted from the O.T. which was for the Jews only. The Jews are the sheep Jesus speaks of, He being the Shepherd of those sheep. Also He speaks of himself only as King of the Jews.

Paul never speaks of Jesus as the Churches Shepherd, or of Christian's as sheep. Paul only refers to Jesus as the Christian's Lord, Saviour, Bridegroom. When Paul mentions Christ it is used as an appellative, meaning a name or title, or cognomen, meaning a surname, or nickname.

Phil LaSpino

fish153 · « **Reply #86 on:** January 20, 2011, 01:51:12 PM »

Quote from: Jimmy on January 20, 2011, 05:11:10 AM

Quote from: fish153 on January 19, 2011, 05:57:42 PM
Quote from: Jimmy on January 19, 2011, 05:43:11 PM
Quote from: LaSpino3 on January 19, 2011, 04:54:19 PM
What is a sinner? Every living human being is born into sin, and needs a Saviour. We all begin the race for eternal glory, bathed in sin.

1. All men have inherited the sin of Adam.

Just exactly, how does that happen? I understand that I inherited many physical traits from by father, and he from his father and so on. How is it that we have inherited the sin of Adam? Did you inherit the sin from your father?

"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies". (PS. 58:3) god

Come on Larry. Why did you quote only v.3? Let's look at v.4.

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.
Psa 58:4 They have venom like the venom of a serpent; Like a deaf cobra that stops up its ear,

Would you like to develop a theological stance around v.4? You know better than to pull a single verse out of the Bible and use it as you have done. Perhaps we should look at the entire Psalm and see what really marvelous theology we could develop. I mean, it could get to be fun. Silly but fun.

How about v. 10?

Psa 58:10 The righteous will rejoice when he sees the vengeance; He will wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

We ought to be able to make something out of that. I have heard of "foot washing" congregations. This could really spice that up a bit.

That you could even think that this is any sort of affirmation of sin inherited from Adam is really quite amazing. But it is typical of the sorts of quotes most give in support of original sin. A quick reading of the Psalm will, of course, show that then entire Psalm is an exercise in hyperbole and it is not to be interpreted literally.

But even so, that doesn't answer the question that I asked. If you think that we have inherited the sin of Adam, how does that happen? What mechanism of creation, did God impose that would transfer the sins of one onto another person. It isn't in the DNA or any other physical aspect of the human being. So how else would it happen?

Perhaps you should read what God actually said about such a thing. He devoted nearly an entire chapter about it. Read Ezekiel chapter 18, then get back to me about it.

Jimmy--

It was me, not Larry that posted that verse. Interpret it as you will Jimmy.

Jimmy · « **Reply #87 on:** January 20, 2011, 02:08:49 PM »

Quote from: fish153 on January 20, 2011, 01:51:12 PM

Quote from: Jimmy on January 20, 2011, 05:11:10 AM
Quote from: fish153 on January 19, 2011, 05:57:42 PM
Quote from: Jimmy on January 19, 2011, 05:43:11 PM
Quote from: LaSpino3 on January 19, 2011, 04:54:19 PM
What is a sinner? Every living human being is born into sin, and needs a Saviour. We all begin the race for eternal glory, bathed in sin.

1. All men have inherited the sin of Adam.

Just exactly, how does that happen? I understand that I inherited many physical traits from by father, and he from his father and so on. How is it that we have inherited the sin of Adam? Did you inherit the sin from your father?

"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies". (PS. 58:3) god

Come on Larry. Why did you quote only v.3? Let's look at v.4.

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.
Psa 58:4 They have venom like the venom of a serpent; Like a deaf cobra that stops up its ear,

Would you like to develop a theological stance around v.4? You know better than to pull a single verse out of the Bible and use it as you have done. Perhaps we should look at the entire Psalm and see what really marvelous theology we could develop. I mean, it could get to be fun. Silly but fun.

How about v. 10?

Psa 58:10 The righteous will rejoice when he sees the vengeance; He will wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

We ought to be able to make something out of that. I have heard of "foot washing" congregations. This could really spice that up a bit.

That you could even think that this is any sort of affirmation of sin inherited from Adam is really quite amazing. But it is typical of the sorts of quotes most give in support of original sin. A quick reading of the Psalm will, of course, show that then entire Psalm is an exercise in hyperbole and it is not to be interpreted literally.

But even so, that doesn't answer the question that I asked. If you think that we have inherited the sin of Adam, how does that happen? What mechanism of creation, did God impose that would transfer the sins of one onto another person. It isn't in the DNA or any other physical aspect of the human being. So how else would it happen?

Perhaps you should read what God actually said about such a thing. He devoted nearly an entire chapter about it. Read Ezekiel chapter 18, then get back to me about it.

Jimmy--

It was me, not Larry that posted that verse. Interpret it as you will Jimmy.

My apologies to Larry. I am more interested in how you would interpret the next verse. Can I assume that you would interpret v.4 with the same literal approach you gave to v.3? That should be interesting.

fish153 · « **Reply #88 on:** January 20, 2011, 03:29:36 PM »

Quote from: Jimmy on January 20, 2011, 02:08:49 PM

Quote from: fish153 on January 20, 2011, 01:51:12 PM
Quote from: Jimmy on January 20, 2011, 05:11:10 AM
Quote from: fish153 on January 19, 2011, 05:57:42 PM
Quote from: Jimmy on January 19, 2011, 05:43:11 PM
Quote from: LaSpino3 on January 19, 2011, 04:54:19 PM
What is a sinner? Every living human being is born into sin, and needs a Saviour. We all begin the race for eternal glory, bathed in sin.

1. All men have inherited the sin of Adam.

Just exactly, how does that happen? I understand that I inherited many physical traits from by father, and he from his father and so on. How is it that we have inherited the sin of Adam? Did you inherit the sin from your father?

"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies". (PS. 58:3) god

Come on Larry. Why did you quote only v.3? Let's look at v.4.

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.
Psa 58:4 They have venom like the venom of a serpent; Like a deaf cobra that stops up its ear,

Would you like to develop a theological stance around v.4? You know better than to pull a single verse out of the Bible and use it as you have done. Perhaps we should look at the entire Psalm and see what really marvelous theology we could develop. I mean, it could get to be fun. Silly but fun.

How about v. 10?

Psa 58:10 The righteous will rejoice when he sees the vengeance; He will wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

We ought to be able to make something out of that. I have heard of "foot washing" congregations. This could really spice that up a bit.

That you could even think that this is any sort of affirmation of sin inherited from Adam is really quite amazing. But it is typical of the sorts of quotes most give in support of original sin. A quick reading of the Psalm will, of course, show that then entire Psalm is an exercise in hyperbole and it is not to be interpreted literally.

But even so, that doesn't answer the question that I asked. If you think that we have inherited the sin of Adam, how does that happen? What mechanism of creation, did God impose that would transfer the sins of one onto another person. It isn't in the DNA or any other physical aspect of the human being. So how else would it happen?

Perhaps you should read what God actually said about such a thing. He devoted nearly an entire chapter about it. Read Ezekiel chapter 18, then get back to me about it.

Jimmy--

It was me, not Larry that posted that verse. Interpret it as you will Jimmy.

My apologies to Larry. I am more interested in how you would interpret the next verse. Can I assume that you would interpret v.4 with the same literal approach you gave to v.3? That should be interesting.

It is talking about the state of our hearts Jimmy. The Psalmist is saying that the "wicked" (which is all of us in an unregenerated state) begin on the wrong path the minute we are born. All of us use "terms" when speaking of a "specific" thing.

"The minute he began working here he has caused trouble. He speaks with venom on his lips". This is a "fact" followed by a metaphor. The person is stating a fact, but not inferring the person has ACTUAL venom on their lips. This is what the Psalmist is doing in V.3 and 4. He is stating that the wicked go astray as soon as they are born, and then uses descriptive phrases to explain their evil ways.

I know you don't believe in original sin---and that's cool. I believe it is a very scriptural doctrine. There is no good in me that will meet God's standards. That is why God says "All their righteousnesses are as filthy rags before me". That is why we need to be born-again. I believe it's scriptural, and you don't. That's OK. Nothing to lose sleep over.

Wycliffes_Shillelagh · « **Reply #89 on:** January 20, 2011, 03:51:22 PM »

Quote from: fish153 on January 20, 2011, 03:29:36 PM

The Psalmist is saying that the "wicked" (which is all of us in an unregenerated state)

Speak for yourself, fish. There are plenty of "unregenerate" people who do not go out seeking to do wrong (which would be the definition of wicked).

K thanks.

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