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Author Topic: Eternal security, yes, or no?  (Read 53153 times)

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Offline revmitchell

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #70 on: Wed Jan 19, 2011 - 17:14:01 »
Godly love is not an emotion any more than the urge for sex is sex. The emotion we feel is simply what motivates us to love. Love is a verb or an action.


As for repentance you cannot turn toward Christ with the intention of bringing your sin with you. You come to Christ after you leave your sin at the cross. Christ said you love Him if you obey Him. Those who simply want a Savior but no Lord are sadly mistaken. Christ must be both Lord and Savior or He is neither. Christ expects obedience which is how you love Him. You cannot consider anything repentance if it does not include obedience, turning from sin, or making Christ Lord (Romans 10:9).

God requires a response from us. And regardless of what that response is that God requires there can be no claim to works. God can require what ever response He desires. And even in the midst of the response that He Himself requires it is He who has the authority and the power to give salvation that gets the credit.

Trying to divorce the works issue from Judaism is incorrect theology. Works was tied to the Jewish law and it is in complete error to assign the response God requires to works. The Jews thought they were all right with God because of their being Jewish or children of Abraham. Any reference to works refers to Jewish law and has no application beyond that.

One can argue that salvation can be given up. But the warnings for endurance in the faith do not support that notion. It is an assumption imposed on scripture with no other support.

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #70 on: Wed Jan 19, 2011 - 17:14:01 »

Offline gospel

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #71 on: Wed Jan 19, 2011 - 17:18:31 »
IF IT WERE POSSIBLE for someone who loves Jesus to stop loving Jesus...of course its possible but Highly Improbable as you know and I know and any adult should know


How improbable is Highly Improbable?  What difference does the degree of improbability have to do with the discussion?  Fish's point is that it is not just highly improbable, it is flat out impossible.  His point is that Christ will not permit it under any circumstances.

Love is an emotion.  Just as hate is an emotion.  Just as fear, trust, joy, sadness, anger, etc.  All are subject to the individual and can change.

I beseech you to stick with the bible definition of Love and adjure you not to minimize the Power of God's Love

I say this with All Due respect as much as I can "possibly" muster

What you or anyone else "thinks" Love is carries absolutely no credibility to me to the slightest degree if it disputes in any way what the bible says ....sorry  ::frown::


As far as playing word games with probable and highly probable I'll simply repeat by the measure of human wisdom and human reasoning anything is possible

But the bible doesn't teach that...sorry ::frown::

For one
Its Impossible to please God without faith

For two

Its impossible for God to lie

For three
Its impossible for God's Word to return unto Him void without accomplishing all that he purposed it to do

Want more?



None of which is really of any consequence at all.  Love is an emotion.  Pure and simple.  But I will give you a shot at it.  What is the Bible definition of love?

Short answer

God is Love ...need I point out to you that your definition of Love as an emotion comes no where close to defining God

That was not a short answer.  That was no answer.  It was just more typical rambling on and on when you have no answer.

Yes God is love.  But all love is not necessarily God. 

Now, please -- What is your Bible definition of love?

I would think at this point if we are talking about Salvation WE ARE discussing Gods Love and only God's Love.

Why would you confuse a conversation like this by injecting into it an inference of eros, phileo or any other kind of love  ::shrug::

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #71 on: Wed Jan 19, 2011 - 17:18:31 »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #72 on: Wed Jan 19, 2011 - 17:28:45 »
Godly love is not an emotion any more than the urge for sex is sex. The emotion we feel is simply what motivates us to love. Love is a verb or an action.

Love is both a noun and a verb.

As for repentance you cannot turn toward Christ with the intention of bringing your sin with you. You come to Christ after you leave your sin at the cross. Christ said you love Him if you obey Him. Those who simply want a Savior but no Lord are sadly mistaken. Christ must be both Lord and Savior or He is neither. Christ expects obedience which is how you love Him. You cannot consider anything repentance if it does not include obedience, turning from sin, or making Christ Lord (Romans 10:9).

God requires a response from us. And regardless of what that response is that God requires there can be no claim to works. God can require what ever response He desires. And even in the midst of the response that He Himself requires it is He who has the authority and the power to give salvation that gets the credit.

Trying to divorce the works issue from Judaism is incorrect theology. Works was tied to the Jewish law and it is in complete error to assign the response God requires to works. The Jews thought they were all right with God because of their being Jewish or children of Abraham. Any reference to works refers to Jewish law and has no application beyond that.

The whole works thing is really bogus.  The works that Paul spoke of was not the doing of something. He was speaking of works of the law, whether that law was the Law of Moses or otherwise.  Believing, repenting, confessing etc are not works in the sense of Paul when he says not saved by works.

One can argue that salvation can be given up. But the warnings for endurance in the faith do not support that notion. It is an assumption imposed on scripture with no other support.

What are the warnings for endurance?  That is what is the consequence of not heeding the warnings?  Some here would argue that all such warning s were only about rewards not salvation.  Now that is an assumption imposed on Scripture with no other support.  Clearly the warnings, at least some, are concerned with the loss or the rejecting of salvation.

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #72 on: Wed Jan 19, 2011 - 17:28:45 »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #73 on: Wed Jan 19, 2011 - 17:32:15 »
IF IT WERE POSSIBLE for someone who loves Jesus to stop loving Jesus...of course its possible but Highly Improbable as you know and I know and any adult should know


How improbable is Highly Improbable?  What difference does the degree of improbability have to do with the discussion?  Fish's point is that it is not just highly improbable, it is flat out impossible.  His point is that Christ will not permit it under any circumstances.

Love is an emotion.  Just as hate is an emotion.  Just as fear, trust, joy, sadness, anger, etc.  All are subject to the individual and can change.

I beseech you to stick with the bible definition of Love and adjure you not to minimize the Power of God's Love

I say this with All Due respect as much as I can "possibly" muster

What you or anyone else "thinks" Love is carries absolutely no credibility to me to the slightest degree if it disputes in any way what the bible says ....sorry  ::frown::


As far as playing word games with probable and highly probable I'll simply repeat by the measure of human wisdom and human reasoning anything is possible

But the bible doesn't teach that...sorry ::frown::

For one
Its Impossible to please God without faith

For two

Its impossible for God to lie

For three
Its impossible for God's Word to return unto Him void without accomplishing all that he purposed it to do

Want more?



None of which is really of any consequence at all.  Love is an emotion.  Pure and simple.  But I will give you a shot at it.  What is the Bible definition of love?

Short answer

God is Love ...need I point out to you that your definition of Love as an emotion comes no where close to defining God

That was not a short answer.  That was no answer.  It was just more typical rambling on and on when you have no answer.

Yes God is love.  But all love is not necessarily God. 

Now, please -- What is your Bible definition of love?

I would think at this point if we are talking about Salvation WE ARE discussing Gods Love and only God's Love.

Why would you confuse a conversation like this by injecting into it an inference of eros, phileo or any other kind of love  ::shrug::

You were the one who injected into it the inability of anyone who loved Christ to stop loving Christ.  You are the one that is confused ::shrug::::shrug::::shrug::::shrug::

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #73 on: Wed Jan 19, 2011 - 17:32:15 »
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Offline gospel

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #74 on: Wed Jan 19, 2011 - 17:33:08 »
Quote
As for repentance you cannot turn toward Christ with the intention of bringing your sin with you. You come to Christ after you leave your sin at the cross. Christ said you love Him if you obey Him. Those who simply want a Savior but no Lord are sadly mistaken. Christ must be both Lord and Savior or He is neither. Christ expects obedience which is how you love Him. You cannot consider anything repentance if it does not include obedience, turning from sin, or making Christ Lord (Romans 10:9).


Kind Sir what you have stated is very true in a religious sense, in that in a formularized ritualized, cookie cutter ritualistic approach to Salvation ...yes you are correct

However the bible makes it clear

The over riding sin is NOT believing Jesus is who He says He is

Jesus Himself made this perfectly clear when He said in John 16:9


of sin, because they do not believe in me

Once one believes in one's heart the Lord Jesus as you alluded to in Romans 10:9 all else follows, for if you do not believe in your heart that Jesus is The Christ, The Son of the Living God, there is no way you will repent of anything much less make Him Lord...

...the tears come, the sorrow comes, the repentance from past mistakes come ONLY after you REALIZE who Jesus is.

First there is a Revelation of Jesus then an "expression" of repentance, note I said expression for as a minister of God sir, you know and I know

WE DO NOT KNOW of all we need to repent of until and only until the Holy Spirit inhabits us and still it is a life long process of purging ourselves of those things that are not pleasing to God


It is ridiculous to suggest a new believer can even remotely begin to repent for everything when you know and I know

There are Saved People who play the Lottery while there are other Saved people who have totally repented of gambling ...that's just a for instance

Our initial Repentance is usually sorrow for the obvious or blatant sins we are aware of along with the even deeper sorrow for having not accepted Jesus sooner and thereby the Power and Ability to be right before God

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #74 on: Wed Jan 19, 2011 - 17:33:08 »



Offline gospel

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #75 on: Wed Jan 19, 2011 - 17:36:05 »
IF IT WERE POSSIBLE for someone who loves Jesus to stop loving Jesus...of course its possible but Highly Improbable as you know and I know and any adult should know


How improbable is Highly Improbable?  What difference does the degree of improbability have to do with the discussion?  Fish's point is that it is not just highly improbable, it is flat out impossible.  His point is that Christ will not permit it under any circumstances.

Love is an emotion.  Just as hate is an emotion.  Just as fear, trust, joy, sadness, anger, etc.  All are subject to the individual and can change.

I beseech you to stick with the bible definition of Love and adjure you not to minimize the Power of God's Love

I say this with All Due respect as much as I can "possibly" muster

What you or anyone else "thinks" Love is carries absolutely no credibility to me to the slightest degree if it disputes in any way what the bible says ....sorry  ::frown::


As far as playing word games with probable and highly probable I'll simply repeat by the measure of human wisdom and human reasoning anything is possible

But the bible doesn't teach that...sorry ::frown::

For one
Its Impossible to please God without faith

For two

Its impossible for God to lie

For three
Its impossible for God's Word to return unto Him void without accomplishing all that he purposed it to do

Want more?



None of which is really of any consequence at all.  Love is an emotion.  Pure and simple.  But I will give you a shot at it.  What is the Bible definition of love?

Short answer

God is Love ...need I point out to you that your definition of Love as an emotion comes no where close to defining God

That was not a short answer.  That was no answer.  It was just more typical rambling on and on when you have no answer.

Yes God is love.  But all love is not necessarily God. 

Now, please -- What is your Bible definition of love?

I would think at this point if we are talking about Salvation WE ARE discussing Gods Love and only God's Love.

Why would you confuse a conversation like this by injecting into it an inference of eros, phileo or any other kind of love  ::shrug::

You were the one who injected into it the inability of anyone who loved Christ to stop loving Christ.  You are the one that is confused ::shrug::::shrug::::shrug::::shrug::


And away we go!

This is what always happens when Jimmy runs out of valid pertinent points to make...we digress into an unproductive back and forth


 ::announcment:: I SAY IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO LOVE JESUS TODAY AND NOT LOVE HIM TOMORROW BECAUSE LOVE DOES NOT FAIL

( I'm shouting this time because I'm shouting to be heard above the din )


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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #75 on: Wed Jan 19, 2011 - 17:36:05 »

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #76 on: Wed Jan 19, 2011 - 17:54:19 »
What is a sinner? Every living human being is born into sin, and needs a Saviour. We all begin the race for eternal glory, bathed in sin.

1. All men have inherited the sin of Adam. There are also many types of sin, and many ways to commit sin. Sin is to transgress the commandments of God, refusing to conform to His will.
2. If anyone say they are without sin, they call God a liar.
3. Even the creation groans.
4. There is a devil, and his disciples move to, and fro looking to destroy the truth of God, and anyone that tries to follow Him. Sin waits at our door.
5. How can we get out of this mess?
6. We needed a Saviour.
7. Now only God can forgive, and save us from our sins.
8. So God came to us in the flesh; He came to seek and to save the lost (that's all of us;) he gave his life for us; He rose from the grave; ascended into heaven; and will return for us.
10. What are the secrets to salvation? There is only one,
11. We are to believe by faith, the gospel of Jesus Christ.
12. So when we hear that the Son of God suffered, and died for our sins, and are moved to this, then we can go to the start line, and enter the race for eternal life.
13. Some who enter may be 10, some 20, 50, or 80, but all must begin at the starting line, and we all start with sin on us. 
14. Once anyone enters the race, they are to persevere, this implies repentance, faithfulness to Christ, enduring to the end. The end of what? the end of our lives. And if a person is faithful to the voice of the Lord until the end, then will they be sealed unto eternal life, and receive their reward for finishing the race of faith.
15. Some may believe they are sealed at the start, and some in the middle of the race. But nothing is ever sealed until it is finished, be it a scroll, book, or our eternal salvation.
16. When the book of life is opened, and our name is found in it, we will receive our reward for the works we have done in this life for Christ. 
16. These who finish the race, are called faithful and true. 

On the other hand, there are those who never enter the race, and many that choose ot to begin  the race. But for those that do, many will, 

1. Have become again entangled with the things of the world.
2. Be snared by the wiles of the devil.
3. Fall again into error swerving away from the truth.
4. Begin to follow another gospel.
5. Turned back.
6. Some looking back at the world they left, and in their hearts, had never left the world.

Yes many start the race for eternal life with Jesus Christ, but as our Lord said, some will take the wide gate, and the broad way, their race ending in destruction, and many there are that go in that way.

But narrow is the way of the Lord, and straight is the gate which leads unto eternal life, "AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT."

Phil LaSpino

Offline revmitchell

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #77 on: Wed Jan 19, 2011 - 17:56:53 »




The whole works thing is really bogus.  The works that Paul spoke of was not the doing of something. He was speaking of works of the law, whether that law was the Law of Moses or otherwise.  Believing, repenting, confessing etc are not works in the sense of Paul when he says not saved by works.

I agree



Quote
What are the warnings for endurance?  That is what is the consequence of not heeding the warnings?  Some here would argue that all such warning s were only about rewards not salvation.  Now that is an assumption imposed on Scripture with no other support.  Clearly the warnings, at least some, are concerned with the loss or the rejecting of salvation.

I have made it clear that I do not support that doctrine. There is no point in bringing it up when replying to me.

Offline gospel

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #78 on: Wed Jan 19, 2011 - 18:24:05 »
Quote
One can argue that salvation can be given up. But the warnings for endurance in the faith do not support that notion. It is an assumption imposed on scripture with no other support
.


 ::amen!::

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #78 on: Wed Jan 19, 2011 - 18:24:05 »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #79 on: Wed Jan 19, 2011 - 18:43:11 »
What is a sinner? Every living human being is born into sin, and needs a Saviour. We all begin the race for eternal glory, bathed in sin.

1. All men have inherited the sin of Adam.

Just exactly, how does that happen?  I understand that I inherited many physical traits from by father, and he from his father and so on.  How is it that we have inherited the sin of Adam?  Did you inherit the sin from your father?

Offline fish153

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #80 on: Wed Jan 19, 2011 - 18:54:00 »
Fish, Thanks for your imput. I understand what you are saying, but Paul does declare they had turned to another gospel, and that Christ had become of, No effect to them.

The word, "effect," means to render inactive, idle, useless, fruitless, of non-effect, and even as strong as destroy.
  
These people had turned back from the gospel of Jesus Christ to the works of the law. They had apostatized, and "fallen from grace." Now whether any of them ever came back to the gospel, we can not tell.

Phil LaSpino

I have to beg to differ I suppose.  ::smile::  I think the very fact Paul addresses these people as "The Church in Galatia", with the idea that they will hear his letter read to them in the assembly shows they hadn't "apostasized".  They had "fallen from Grace" in the sense that they had been deceived into believing their own efforts could complete something God started within them. They needed a direct rebuke and exhortation and that is what Paul was giving them---and it originated with the LORD Himself.

What troubles me in some of these threads (not necessarily your comments Phil) is that there seems to be far more faith in the ability of someone to fall away and lose their salvation, than there is in Christ's ability to Keep and Preserve His Own Sheep from doing so.  He has after all committed himself to protect and care for his own sheep. Most shepherds do not make it a habit of allowing their own sheep to stray off and get killed by wolves---no matter how stupid and defiant the sheep are.  The Shepherd has a rod and staff for that very purpose. The Good Shepherd will not allow any of His own to perish.

Shepherds also sheer their sheep and slaughter them for food and offered them up of sacrifice.  In many cases, they controlled the breeding of the sheep to make sure they reproduced the best offspring.  You should not insinuate more into the metaphor than was originally given, as you are obviously doing.

It has nothing to do with "faith in the ability of someone to fall away and lose their salvation".  It is simply what the Bible says.  That you refuse to acknowledge the clear meaning of such texts is a travesty in reading and interpreting what the Bible says.

I find more and more, particularly at forums such as this, unfortunately, is that determining what the Bible says and means has more to do with the theological background of the reader than just about anything else.  That is certainly true where the subject of salvation and assurance of that salvation is concerned.

The passages of Scripture that LaSpino3, Degrah and others have posted are not difficult passages at all for the most part and clearly show the conditionality of staying saved.

Jimmy----

John 10:28.29 is very clear.  The Lord Jesus uses the "Good Shepherd" for good reason and to cause to contemplate his love and his care for his own.  For you to bring in shearing and slaughtering shows you have very little understanding of what God is trying to teach us.  I have yet to here anyone refute John10:28,29 on this board, or to show how Jesus did not mean exactly what he said when he taught "I give my sheep ETERNAL LIFE and they shall NEVER PERISH"  You just cannot change those verses to mean something else than what they are clearly teaching.

I am not bringing "my theology" into this at all.  John 10:28.29 is so clear in it's teaching that you literally have to set it aside and hold onto verses that "seem" to imply differently-----and that is exactly what you are doing.  Salvation is eternal and the Bible clearly teaches that.  You just choose to think of shearing and slaughtering rather than the loving Grace of the Good Shepherd in preserving, and keeping his dear sheep, whom he "calls by name" and leads to pasture.

The very tone of your posts are always legalistic in nature.  Have you ever really read John 10, or Psalm 103, or any of the other scriptures that speak of the deep love God has for his own children?  Or do you only look for, and concentrate on verses that "seem" to imply He is not really as loving towards His children as He says He is?

Oh come on.  Have I ever really read John 10 or Psalm 103?  What sort of nonsense is that?  You of all people should not ever allude to another not "really" reading anything in the Scriptures.  What is ETERNAL LIFE?  What do you think that means.  What does NEVER PERISH mean?

Please define both for me.

And my reference to shearing and slaughtering were given only as an example to show how you engage the metaphors of the Bible to what ever extent you wish without regard for the original intent.  It is the same thing that the RCC does in their analysis of the loaf of bread and cup of wine of the Lord's supper.  It is the same thing that those promoting the gospel of prosperity do with much of what the Bible says about the benefits of being a Christian.

Or consider the following:

John 6:35  Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

John 8:12  Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life."

John 10:9  "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

John 10:11  "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

John 11:25  Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies,

John 14:6  Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.

John 15:5  "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing.


Those are the seven great I AMs of the gospel of John.  Each one is presented as a metaphor.  Each one could be extended, as you constantly do for the shepherd metaphor, beyond the point that Jesus was trying to make in each of them.  

Consider, for example, John 6:35.  How easy it would be to suggest that if you are ever hungry or thirsting then obviously you have not come to Jesus.  You must be lost.

Or how about John 8:12.  Using your method of extending the metaphor, one could argue that if you ever find yourself in darkness, in the absense of the sunlight, that you obviously are not following Jesus as you should and you are lost.

I could go on, but I hope I have made my point.

You have quite a problem with John 10:28,29:

"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.  I GIVE them eternal life, and they shall NEVER PERISH; no one will snatch them out of my hand.  My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.  I and the Father are one.

Offline fish153

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #81 on: Wed Jan 19, 2011 - 18:57:42 »
What is a sinner? Every living human being is born into sin, and needs a Saviour. We all begin the race for eternal glory, bathed in sin.

1. All men have inherited the sin of Adam.

Just exactly, how does that happen?  I understand that I inherited many physical traits from by father, and he from his father and so on.  How is it that we have inherited the sin of Adam?  Did you inherit the sin from your father?


"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies". (PS. 58:3)


Offline revmitchell

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #82 on: Wed Jan 19, 2011 - 19:15:32 »
"chosen" does not negate a conscious decision on our part to move toward God when God imparts that ability to us. Nor should our decision be excluded from the equation.

Offline gospel

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #83 on: Wed Jan 19, 2011 - 19:16:56 »
What is a sinner? Every living human being is born into sin, and needs a Saviour. We all begin the race for eternal glory, bathed in sin.

1. All men have inherited the sin of Adam.

Just exactly, how does that happen?  I understand that I inherited many physical traits from by father, and he from his father and so on.  How is it that we have inherited the sin of Adam?  Did you inherit the sin from your father?


How did you inherit Jesus righteousness?

BIRTH!

Spiritual birth

You, I all of us are identified with Adam through "natural descendancy" "bloodline" "legacy" and that by natural birth

What is born of the flesh is flesh...there's no escaping it


Your daddy is poor you are born poor spiritually speaking but as true as it is in the natural


Being born again is being born of the Spirit, you become rich, spiritually speaking


You must be born of the Spirit


Your natural daddy doesn't count in terms of who you are spiritually

because

From God's perspective there are only 2 men

ADAM and CHRIST

This, indeed, is what is written: "The first man, Adam, became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:45

How God sees you is based on your identification with either

Through our birth in the flesh we have our identification with Adam and through that we are seen as children of disobedience


Every person born into the world belongs to the world and is identified with Adam


Children are not sinless, they definitely sin but their sin is not imputed to them because they are innocent

Therefore the innocence of children is accounted to them as righteousness


Once they become accountable they must choose whom they will identify. They must choose to stay as they are or identify with Jesus through the New Birth


For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:22

Through The New Birth, the birth by means of the Spirit of God we have our identification with Christ and through that we become Sons of God heirs of everything God possesses and coheirs of everything Jesus is entitled as a Son


And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together
. Romans 8:17

Galatians 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 4:7
So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.

::reading::
« Last Edit: Wed Jan 19, 2011 - 19:36:42 by gospel »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #84 on: Thu Jan 20, 2011 - 06:11:10 »
What is a sinner? Every living human being is born into sin, and needs a Saviour. We all begin the race for eternal glory, bathed in sin.

1. All men have inherited the sin of Adam.

Just exactly, how does that happen?  I understand that I inherited many physical traits from by father, and he from his father and so on.  How is it that we have inherited the sin of Adam?  Did you inherit the sin from your father?


"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies". (PS. 58:3)



Come on Larry.  Why did you quote only v.3?  Let's look at v.4.

Psa 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.
Psa 58:4  They have venom like the venom of a serpent; Like a deaf cobra that stops up its ear,


Would you like to develop a theological stance around v.4?  You know better than to pull a single verse out of the Bible and use it as you have done.   Perhaps we should look at the entire Psalm and see what really marvelous theology we could develop.  I mean, it could get to be fun.  Silly but fun.

How about v. 10?

Psa 58:10  The righteous will rejoice when he sees the vengeance; He will wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

We ought to be able to make something out of that.  I have heard of "foot washing" congregations.  This could really spice that up a bit.

That you could even think that this is any sort of affirmation of sin inherited from Adam is really quite amazing.  But it is typical of the sorts of quotes most give in support of original sin.  A quick reading of the Psalm will, of course, show that then entire Psalm is an exercise in hyperbole and it is not to be interpreted literally.

But even so, that doesn't answer the question that I asked.  If you think that we have inherited the sin of Adam, how does that happen?  What mechanism of creation, did God impose that would transfer the sins of one onto another person.  It isn't in the DNA or any other physical aspect of the human being.  So how else would it happen?

Perhaps you should read what God actually said about such a thing.  He devoted nearly an entire chapter about it. Read Ezekiel chapter 18, then get back to me about it.
« Last Edit: Thu Jan 20, 2011 - 10:25:57 by Jimmy »

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #85 on: Thu Jan 20, 2011 - 10:23:28 »
Paul is writing to Timothy to guard against false teachings coming into the Christian church.

1 Tim.1:6-7, " Some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling. Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. "

"Some," the number of false teachers that Paul is speaking of, is unknown.

To swerved: Greek is, astocheo. It means to missing the mark. As a metaphor, to miss, to err, to swerve from.

"Turned aside," Greek is, exautes. Adv. Literally from this time, as in forthwith, presently, immediately. Vain talking, empty words, 

Neither understanding what they say, or affirm.

"Neither," Greek is, mete. meaning, not, also not; hence neither, not even. Conjunctive, a continuative referring usually rather to a part of a proposition or clause. In continued negation, at the beginning of a subsequent clause. Repeated, neither -- nor, before different parts of the same clause as in, 1 Tim.1:7.

Phil LaSpino

I am going to go out on a limb with the following comment.

Many refer to sheep, and the great Shepherd, Jesus Christ to prove their point that Christian's once saved, are always saved.  Grab your concordance, and you will see that whenever sheep are mentioned, it is mentioned only in the gospels, they concerning the Jews only

Concerning Jesus as Shepherd, again making reference to the Jews alone, or quoted from the O.T. which was for the Jews only. The Jews are the sheep Jesus speaks of, He being the Shepherd of those sheep. Also He speaks of himself only as King of the Jews.

Paul never speaks of Jesus as the Churches Shepherd, or of Christian's as sheep. Paul only refers to Jesus as the Christian's Lord, Saviour, Bridegroom.  When Paul mentions Christ it is used as an appellative, meaning a name or title, or cognomen, meaning a surname, or nickname.

Phil LaSpino

Offline fish153

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #86 on: Thu Jan 20, 2011 - 14:51:12 »
What is a sinner? Every living human being is born into sin, and needs a Saviour. We all begin the race for eternal glory, bathed in sin.

1. All men have inherited the sin of Adam.

Just exactly, how does that happen?  I understand that I inherited many physical traits from by father, and he from his father and so on.  How is it that we have inherited the sin of Adam?  Did you inherit the sin from your father?


"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies". (PS. 58:3)  god



Come on Larry.  Why did you quote only v.3?  Let's look at v.4.

Psa 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.
Psa 58:4  They have venom like the venom of a serpent; Like a deaf cobra that stops up its ear,


Would you like to develop a theological stance around v.4?  You know better than to pull a single verse out of the Bible and use it as you have done.   Perhaps we should look at the entire Psalm and see what really marvelous theology we could develop.  I mean, it could get to be fun.  Silly but fun.

How about v. 10?

Psa 58:10  The righteous will rejoice when he sees the vengeance; He will wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

We ought to be able to make something out of that.  I have heard of "foot washing" congregations.  This could really spice that up a bit.

That you could even think that this is any sort of affirmation of sin inherited from Adam is really quite amazing.  But it is typical of the sorts of quotes most give in support of original sin.  A quick reading of the Psalm will, of course, show that then entire Psalm is an exercise in hyperbole and it is not to be interpreted literally.

But even so, that doesn't answer the question that I asked.  If you think that we have inherited the sin of Adam, how does that happen?  What mechanism of creation, did God impose that would transfer the sins of one onto another person.  It isn't in the DNA or any other physical aspect of the human being.  So how else would it happen?

Perhaps you should read what God actually said about such a thing.  He devoted nearly an entire chapter about it. Read Ezekiel chapter 18, then get back to me about it.

Jimmy--

It was me, not Larry that posted that verse.  Interpret it as you will Jimmy.

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #87 on: Thu Jan 20, 2011 - 15:08:49 »
What is a sinner? Every living human being is born into sin, and needs a Saviour. We all begin the race for eternal glory, bathed in sin.

1. All men have inherited the sin of Adam.

Just exactly, how does that happen?  I understand that I inherited many physical traits from by father, and he from his father and so on.  How is it that we have inherited the sin of Adam?  Did you inherit the sin from your father?


"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies". (PS. 58:3)  god



Come on Larry.  Why did you quote only v.3?  Let's look at v.4.

Psa 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.
Psa 58:4  They have venom like the venom of a serpent; Like a deaf cobra that stops up its ear,


Would you like to develop a theological stance around v.4?  You know better than to pull a single verse out of the Bible and use it as you have done.   Perhaps we should look at the entire Psalm and see what really marvelous theology we could develop.  I mean, it could get to be fun.  Silly but fun.

How about v. 10?

Psa 58:10  The righteous will rejoice when he sees the vengeance; He will wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

We ought to be able to make something out of that.  I have heard of "foot washing" congregations.  This could really spice that up a bit.

That you could even think that this is any sort of affirmation of sin inherited from Adam is really quite amazing.  But it is typical of the sorts of quotes most give in support of original sin.  A quick reading of the Psalm will, of course, show that then entire Psalm is an exercise in hyperbole and it is not to be interpreted literally.

But even so, that doesn't answer the question that I asked.  If you think that we have inherited the sin of Adam, how does that happen?  What mechanism of creation, did God impose that would transfer the sins of one onto another person.  It isn't in the DNA or any other physical aspect of the human being.  So how else would it happen?

Perhaps you should read what God actually said about such a thing.  He devoted nearly an entire chapter about it. Read Ezekiel chapter 18, then get back to me about it.

Jimmy--

It was me, not Larry that posted that verse.  Interpret it as you will Jimmy.

My apologies to Larry.  I am more interested in how you would interpret the next verse.  Can I assume that you would interpret v.4 with the same literal approach you gave to v.3?  That should be interesting.

Offline fish153

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #88 on: Thu Jan 20, 2011 - 16:29:36 »
What is a sinner? Every living human being is born into sin, and needs a Saviour. We all begin the race for eternal glory, bathed in sin.

1. All men have inherited the sin of Adam.

Just exactly, how does that happen?  I understand that I inherited many physical traits from by father, and he from his father and so on.  How is it that we have inherited the sin of Adam?  Did you inherit the sin from your father?


"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies". (PS. 58:3)  god



Come on Larry.  Why did you quote only v.3?  Let's look at v.4.

Psa 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.
Psa 58:4  They have venom like the venom of a serpent; Like a deaf cobra that stops up its ear,


Would you like to develop a theological stance around v.4?  You know better than to pull a single verse out of the Bible and use it as you have done.   Perhaps we should look at the entire Psalm and see what really marvelous theology we could develop.  I mean, it could get to be fun.  Silly but fun.

How about v. 10?

Psa 58:10  The righteous will rejoice when he sees the vengeance; He will wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

We ought to be able to make something out of that.  I have heard of "foot washing" congregations.  This could really spice that up a bit.

That you could even think that this is any sort of affirmation of sin inherited from Adam is really quite amazing.  But it is typical of the sorts of quotes most give in support of original sin.  A quick reading of the Psalm will, of course, show that then entire Psalm is an exercise in hyperbole and it is not to be interpreted literally.

But even so, that doesn't answer the question that I asked.  If you think that we have inherited the sin of Adam, how does that happen?  What mechanism of creation, did God impose that would transfer the sins of one onto another person.  It isn't in the DNA or any other physical aspect of the human being.  So how else would it happen?

Perhaps you should read what God actually said about such a thing.  He devoted nearly an entire chapter about it. Read Ezekiel chapter 18, then get back to me about it.

Jimmy--

It was me, not Larry that posted that verse.  Interpret it as you will Jimmy.

My apologies to Larry.  I am more interested in how you would interpret the next verse.  Can I assume that you would interpret v.4 with the same literal approach you gave to v.3?  That should be interesting.

It is talking about the state of our hearts Jimmy.  The Psalmist is saying that the "wicked" (which is all of us in an unregenerated state) begin on the wrong path the minute we are born.  All of us use "terms" when speaking of a "specific" thing.

"The minute he began working here he has caused trouble.  He speaks with venom on his lips".    This is a "fact" followed by a metaphor.  The person is stating a fact, but not inferring the person has ACTUAL venom on their lips.   This is what the Psalmist is doing in V.3 and 4.  He is stating that the wicked go astray as soon as they are born, and then uses descriptive phrases to explain their evil ways.

I know you don't believe in original sin---and that's cool.  I believe it is a very scriptural doctrine.  There is no good in me that will meet God's standards.  That is why God says "All their righteousnesses are as filthy rags before me".  That is why we need to be born-again.  I believe it's scriptural, and you don't.  That's OK. Nothing to lose sleep over.   ::smile::

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #89 on: Thu Jan 20, 2011 - 16:51:22 »
The Psalmist is saying that the "wicked" (which is all of us in an unregenerated state)
Speak for yourself, fish.  There are plenty of "unregenerate" people who do not go out seeking to do wrong (which would be the definition of wicked).

K thanks.

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #90 on: Thu Jan 20, 2011 - 16:58:51 »
We are all wicked outside of the cross. Those who wish to run from the cross will remain wicked regardless of man made standards.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #91 on: Thu Jan 20, 2011 - 17:03:56 »
We are all wicked outside of the cross. Those who wish to run from the cross will remain wicked regardless of man made standards.
Yay, another absolute blanket condemnation ascribing bad things to men you do not know or have any right to speak for.

Good job, I'm sure that will inspire the unwashed masses to come on down to the alter and get saved real good.

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #92 on: Thu Jan 20, 2011 - 17:45:07 »
I know you don't believe in original sin---and that's cool.  I believe it is a very scriptural doctrine.  There is no good in me that will meet God's standards.  That is why God says "All their righteousnesses are as filthy rags before me".  That is why we need to be born-again.  I believe it's scriptural, and you don't.  That's OK. Nothing to lose sleep over.   ::smile::

The need to be born again has nothing to do with original sin.  I believe that all need to be born again, and those who have chosen to believe in Jesus Christ will see to it that they indeed are.

Offline revmitchell

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #93 on: Thu Jan 20, 2011 - 17:57:41 »
We are all wicked outside of the cross. Those who wish to run from the cross will remain wicked regardless of man made standards.
Yay, another absolute blanket condemnation ascribing bad things to men you do not know or have any right to speak for.

Good job, I'm sure that will inspire the unwashed masses to come on down to the alter and get saved real good.


We are all sinners (wicked) short of having the wage for our wickedness paid for by the Blood of Jesus.  And that is everyone not just a few. All men must need have bad things ascribed to them and that includes me an you. We are all wicked (even me and you) without Christ. And to reject Christ is to remain in that wickedness.

Joh 3:20  For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.

That is the gospel that everyone needs to hear. That is the gospel that should be preached form every pulpit in the world and on every street corner.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #94 on: Thu Jan 20, 2011 - 18:17:28 »
Good news!  You are all a bunch of depraved losers!  But, we can fix what's wrong with you!

::mobbed::

Offline gospel

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #95 on: Thu Jan 20, 2011 - 18:21:48 »
I know you don't believe in original sin---and that's cool.  I believe it is a very scriptural doctrine.  There is no good in me that will meet God's standards.  That is why God says "All their righteousnesses are as filthy rags before me".  That is why we need to be born-again.  I believe it's scriptural, and you don't.  That's OK. Nothing to lose sleep over.   ::smile::

The need to be born again has nothing to do with original sin.  I believe that all need to be born again, and those who have chosen to believe in Jesus Christ will see to it that they indeed are.

That's not even logical according to your own statements but whatever floats your boat.

If everyone needs to be born again and they do, its because their first birth is not sufficient to make them a child of God.

No ones first birth will ever be sufficient because

What is born of flesh is flesh

Furthermore and even more importantly the first birth is not sufficient because by bloodline we are all born children of disobedience

The term "children of" means disobedience fathered you!
It does not mean you are disobedient but rather, it means you are a child of the disobedience of Adam, his blood coursing through your and all of our veins into such time we become partakers in the Blood of Jesus.

Because disobedience fathered you, quite naturally YOU WILL be disobedient because that is the sinful nature of everyone born into the world

Enter Jesus, the only person ever born without a sinful nature

Being born again makes one a child of God through the OBEDIENCE of the one man Jesus, the Christ whom being born of a virgin by the Holy Spirit, His blood line did not descend from Adam but from God.

FACT: Jesus is the only man born who was not descended from Adam, His Blood was pure, His pure Blood is why He is the The Perfect Lamb of God, the Perfect sinless sacrifice, the Lamb without Spot or Blemish

You my friend are descended from Adam and until you became a child of God you too shared in his legacy, born with a sinful nature, impure blood destined to sin


To God there is only a first man and a last man those men are Adam and Jesus


It is the blood of your natural birth that identifies you with Adam


It is the Blood of you spiritual birth that identifies you with Jesus


 Romans 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!


If the Holy Scriptures, God's Holy Word calls Jesus, The Son of God, the Christ, Our Lord and Savior .......the last Adam you ought to know there is really something you are overlooking about the depth, weight and impact Adam has had on humanity

Because no man ever born compares to Jesus...however the Bible makes it clear that this one and the same Jesus is

The Last Adam

Know this if you don't know anything else.....

The Last Adam accomplished what the first Adam messed up

The Last Adam restored the Kingdom and Righteousness the first Adam lost.

At this point Jimmy it matters very little to me whether you get it or not, I just put it out there for those who may be led by the Holy Spirit  into a sound understanding of these matters.


So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.  1 Corinthians 15:45

Offline revmitchell

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #96 on: Thu Jan 20, 2011 - 18:22:03 »
Good news!  You are all a bunch of depraved losers!  But, we can fix what's wrong with you!

::mobbed::

Depraved is exactly what we all are. And it is God who fixes it.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #97 on: Thu Jan 20, 2011 - 18:37:16 »
I know you don't believe in original sin---and that's cool.  I believe it is a very scriptural doctrine.  There is no good in me that will meet God's standards.  That is why God says "All their righteousnesses are as filthy rags before me".  That is why we need to be born-again.  I believe it's scriptural, and you don't.  That's OK. Nothing to lose sleep over.   ::smile::

The need to be born again has nothing to do with original sin.  I believe that all need to be born again, and those who have chosen to believe in Jesus Christ will see to it that they indeed are.

That's not even logical according to your own statements but whatever floats your boat.

If everyone needs to be born again and they do, its because their first birth is not sufficient to make them a child of God.

It is called REgeneration, not generation.  It is your spirit, not your body, that needs to be reborn becuase you screwed it up. The need to be reborn is because you sinned and you died spiritually.  Your spirit, that perfectly good spirit that God gave you when you were conceived (or born if you prefer), died when you sinned that very first time.

Now I realize that you, fish, probably larry2 and some others believe that the spirit God gave you initially was no good, depraved, and basically DOA.  But that is not true.  God doesn't do such things.

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #98 on: Thu Jan 20, 2011 - 18:39:56 »

Psalms 51:5  Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
   ::preachit::

Offline fish153

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #99 on: Thu Jan 20, 2011 - 18:41:50 »
The Psalmist is saying that the "wicked" (which is all of us in an unregenerated state)
Speak for yourself, fish.  There are plenty of "unregenerate" people who do not go out seeking to do wrong (which would be the definition of wicked).

K thanks.

Wylcliffe---

Read Ephesians 2.  It says this:

"Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others". (Eph. 2:3)

Before Christ enters our lives and we are born-again, we are ALL under the wrath of God.  We were BY NATURE the children of wrath says Paul.

The Bible also says: "The heart is deceitful above all things and DESPERATELY WICKED, who can know it?" (Jer. 17:9)

It's not talking about specific hearts wycliffe---God is speaking about how he views ALL HEARTS.

I will speak for myself----my heart is exceedingly wicked without the Holy Spirit living in me and giving me new life.  That is a fact.  No denying it.

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #100 on: Thu Jan 20, 2011 - 18:44:26 »

Psalms 51:5  Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
   ::preachit::

Well then, Larry, fix that problem. What are you waiting for.

Psa 51:7  Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Offline fish153

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #101 on: Thu Jan 20, 2011 - 18:55:07 »
I know you don't believe in original sin---and that's cool.  I believe it is a very scriptural doctrine.  There is no good in me that will meet God's standards.  That is why God says "All their righteousnesses are as filthy rags before me".  That is why we need to be born-again.  I believe it's scriptural, and you don't.  That's OK. Nothing to lose sleep over.   ::smile::

The need to be born again has nothing to do with original sin.  I believe that all need to be born again, and those who have chosen to believe in Jesus Christ will see to it that they indeed are.

That's not even logical according to your own statements but whatever floats your boat.

If everyone needs to be born again and they do, its because their first birth is not sufficient to make them a child of God.

It is called REgeneration, not generation.  It is your spirit, not your body, that needs to be reborn becuase you screwed it up. The need to be reborn is because you sinned and you died spiritually.  Your spirit, that perfectly good spirit that God gave you when you were conceived (or born if you prefer), died when you sinned that very first time.

Now I realize that you, fish, probably larry2 and some others believe that the spirit God gave you initially was no good, depraved, and basically DOA.  But that is not true.  God doesn't do such things.

Jimmy--

"For as IN ADAM all die, so IN CHRIST all will be made alive"(1 Cor. 15:22)

Please note the word "IN".  Have you never wondered about this verse:

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth"

This verse speaks to the fact that Adam's offspring are born with the same fallen image Adam had.

Offline gospel

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #102 on: Thu Jan 20, 2011 - 18:56:19 »
The Psalmist is saying that the "wicked" (which is all of us in an unregenerated state)
Speak for yourself, fish.  There are plenty of "unregenerate" people who do not go out seeking to do wrong (which would be the definition of wicked).

K thanks.

Wylcliffe---

Read Ephesians 2.  It says this:

"Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others". (Eph. 2:3)

The Bible also says: "The heart is deceitful above all things and DESPERATELY WICKED, who can know it?" (Jer. 17:9)

It's not talking about specific hearts wycliffe---God is speaking about how he views ALL HEARTS.

I will speak for myself----my heart is exceedingly wicked without the Holy Spirit living in me and giving me new life.  That is a fact.  No denying it.

The bible clearly teaches that In Gods eyes simple unfaithfulness, doubt and unbelief is considered wicked


And he said to him, Out of your own mouth will I judge you, you wicked servant. You knew that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: Luke 19:27

Do you think perverse is a better word?

Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him here to me. Matthew 17:17

Perverse is a similar type thing, a twisting of something intended for good into something contrary to that for which God originally intended

Wickedness is not necessarily what we as mortal men would call evil

Wickedness is the twisting of Gods order, His Word His intended way for us to live into our own way

For instance the Just shall live by Faith is God's ideal for mankind


As the crowds increased, Jesus said, "This is a wicked generation. It asks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.Luke 11:29

Offline gospel

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #103 on: Thu Jan 20, 2011 - 19:03:35 »

Psalms 51:5  Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
   ::preachit::

Well then, Larry, fix that problem. What are you waiting for.

Psa 51:7  Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Hyssop is a type of the tongue, by which we speak the word of our testimony, it is how we sprinkle the Blood in the New Testament

"And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, Revelation 12:11


Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Hebrews 10:22

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Re: Eternal security, yes, or no?
« Reply #104 on: Thu Jan 20, 2011 - 19:11:36 »
Adam's sin, original sin, inherit sin, call it what you want, but we are by divine decree sinners when we enter the world, and say our very first words, Waaaa. 

1. Rom.5:12, "As by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death PASSED upon all men, for that all have sinned."

2. Rom.3:23, "For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

Human depravity is a state of mind, it a lack of love, and is that love which is required by God's divine law.

3. Isa.48:8, "Thou --- was called a transgressor from the womb."

4. Paul is speaking to the church at Ephesus,

Eph.2:1-2-3, "You -- were dead in trespasses and sins. Wherin in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.  -- We ALL had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath."

Well that pretty much said it all. So until a person understands that they are sinners in need of a Saviour, repent, and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, a porcupine has more right to heaven then the best of those who are born into this world. Porcupines do what God intended them to do, and I have never heard of one rebelling against God, As do all men, and women.

And if you say you have not sinned, you are calling God a liar.

Phil LaSpino

 

     
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