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Offline Reformer

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Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« on: Sun Aug 30, 2020 - 14:15:21 »
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
_______________________________
 
Extinguishing The Ungodly
Forever
      NOTATIONI didn’t intend to do a third column on this topic currently, but I’ve received quite a few responses from Parts 1 & 2 and decided to address it once more. I beg for your patience.—Buff. 
________

    This controversial issue has prompted a host of responses, both positive and negative. One of my readers responded to my sentiments by referring me to the words of our Lord in Matthew 25:46. The verse reads, “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

    My position, of course, is that the ungodly will experience a final, ceaseless existence. He inquires, “Why doesn’t the Bible say, ‘And the wicked will cease to exist, while the righteous will inherit eternal life?’ ”

     Well, it actually does, but not in those exact words. It is interesting that “destruction” and “perish” are never applied to the righteous. Their eternity will be endless life and eternal bliss. But not so with the wicked. They will suffer eternal destruction, or, as Jesus puts it in John 3:16, they will perish—that is, cease to exist.

    Such is the meaning of “perish.” The destruction of the ungodly will be eternal in that it will never be reversed or altered. Their eternal punishment will be the absence of life, away from the glory of God and the exquisite paradise He has prepared for the righteous.

    To be a little repetitious just here, the wicked will perish—be extinguished. The results [extinction] will be eternal, never-ending. Paul says the “wages of sin [for the ungodly] is death”—eternal death [Rom. 6:23]. John’s Revelation speaks of the ungodly undergoing a “second death” [2:11, 20:6, 20:14, and 21:8]. The term “second death” is not used elsewhere in scripture.

    The writings in Revelation are highly symbolic, but if we take “second death” at face value, or even symbolically, the “second death” of the ungodly will be eternal punishment—extinction. Let it be repeated again that if the ungodly are kept alive endlessly while being tormented, they have not died, the opposite of what Paul and the Lord say.

    But what about Mark 9:43-44, where “the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched”? Our Lord used the literal “fire” of the garbage dump [Gehenna], just outside of Jerusalem, to bolster His point on the awfulness of being rejected in the end. Although that fire burned most of the time, yet it was only temporary.

    The “worm,” the “fire,” and “not quenched” are mere symbols, and each typifies the horrific fate of the ungodly prior to their being extinguished forever. The eternal extinction of the wicked will not be quenched—stamped out or smothered. It will be endless! Incidentally, a few versions do not contain verse 44, “where the worm does not die.”

    A number of commentators, including the late Adam Clarke, note that Mark 9:44 is the last verse in Isaiah. They all say the statement “where the worm does not die” is a figurative expression, which was common among the Jewish people. Apparently, it was still a figurative utterance in Jesus’ time on earth.

    Regardless of the meaning of Mark 9:43-44, one thing seems to be quite convincing—immortality is not appropriated to the ungodly, but to believers only.
« Last Edit: Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 13:01:08 by Reformer »

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Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« on: Sun Aug 30, 2020 - 14:15:21 »

Online RB

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #1 on: Sun Aug 30, 2020 - 15:11:55 »
Agreed~maybe later I can comment.

Offline Reformer

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #2 on: Sun Aug 30, 2020 - 21:33:35 »

RB:

    Thank you, brother. Any comments, agreeable or disagreeable, are welcome if offered in a spirit of love.

Buff

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #2 on: Sun Aug 30, 2020 - 21:33:35 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #3 on: Thu Sep 03, 2020 - 12:42:55 »
Recent posts made me go brush up on Greek beliefs concerning the afterlife.  Since the New Testament picks up a lot of the Greek imagery, I think it's worthwhile to examine them.

The Greek underworld actually had several parts.

Elysium was for the famous/righteous.  It's a place of eternal reward, and bears the characteristics of the Hebrew paradise - it is a garden of delights.

Tartarus was for the infamous/wicked.  It's a place of eternal torment, and bears the characteristics we would typically think of as "hell" - it is a deep pit with a river or lake of fire.  For the Greeks, this was not intended for mankind - it was created as a place of punishment for the Titans.  Nonetheless, if you do bad enough things, you can be sent there to suffer for all eternity.

Hades was for those who were ordinary.  It's envisioned as a kingdom within the underworld.  It has fortified gates and is otherwise fenced in by rivers.  Those who end up in Hades wander for some long time, at the end of which they either pass through the river of forgetfulness (oblivion) into outer darkness, or through the river of remembrance into Persephone's groves.

I say all that to say this - annihilation and eternal-conscious-torment aren't necessarily incompatible.  Both/and is a viable option, and has precedent in the beliefs common to that era of history.

Jarrod

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #3 on: Thu Sep 03, 2020 - 12:42:55 »
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Offline Reformer

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #4 on: Thu Sep 03, 2020 - 21:18:49 »
JARROD—Regarding Hades:

    Of interest is that when Jesus biologically died on the cross, He did not immediately ascend to the Father or to heaven, even though He cried out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit” [Luke 23:46 & Psalms 31:5].
 
    That He placed His spirit in His Father’s charge is obvious, for His spirit, the real Jesus, promptly went into Hades, the unseen abode of departed spirits [Greek], when He breathed His last. He did not ascend to the Father until after His resurrection.

    When Jesus revealed Himself to Mary Magdalene after His resurrection, she apparently greeted Him with a hug, but Jesus told her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father, but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God’ ” [John 20:17].   

    Peter affirms that Jesus was not abandoned to Hades, the unseen abode of departed spirits, but instead was reunited with his physical body, and the two of them, spirit and body, were resurrected the third day. “Seeing what was ahead, he [David] spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay” [Acts 2:29-32].

    As noted previously, Peter alludes to two parts of Jesus. His spirit, the real Jesus, went into Hades while His physical body remained in the tomb. But where in Hades? Is there, or was there, a Paradise side of Hades? The question is excessively controversial.

    It is proper to claim that Paradise and Heaven are sometimes used synonymously. “Paradise” is found only three times in the scriptures.  Paul was “caught up to Paradise” [2 Cor. 12:4]. He called it the “third heaven,” which, in Jewish culture at the time, was heaven itself. John writes about the “tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God” [Rev. 2:7]. He no doubt refers to heaven itself.

    Some take the position the “captive saints” in Hades ascended with Jesus when He took His leave of planet Earth and went back to His Father. “When He ascended on high, He led a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men” [Eph. 4:7-8].

    I won’t dispute the validity of this possibility, but there’s a thorn that bothers me.  If these saints are already in heaven, and if we go directly to heaven when we die, why a resurrection when Jesus returns? After all, we’re already in heaven. Why would He bring us back to earth to reunite with or reclaim our glorified bodies? ][See Philippines 3:20.]

    Many say it would it be more consistent to believe our spirit goes to an intermediate state called “Paradise,” the same place Jesus and the redeemed criminal went, and that our spirit, the real person, will remain there until the resurrection. Well, wherever we go, it will surely be a Garden of Delight. And none of us will complain!

Buff
« Last Edit: Thu Sep 03, 2020 - 21:27:15 by Reformer »

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #4 on: Thu Sep 03, 2020 - 21:18:49 »



Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #5 on: Fri Sep 04, 2020 - 00:35:25 »
    It is proper to claim that Paradise and Heaven are sometimes used synonymously. “Paradise” is found only three times in the scriptures.  Paul was “caught up to Paradise” [2 Cor. 12:4]. He called it the “third heaven,” which, in Jewish culture at the time, was heaven itself. John writes about the “tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God” [Rev. 2:7]. He no doubt refers to heaven itself.
I believe Paul's "third heaven" is a reference to the Book of Enoch. 

The author of Enoch lays out a cosmology which includes 10 heavens.  In the story, Enoch is taken (alive, bodily) into the third heaven.  The third heaven there includes "paradise" which it turns out is synonymous with the garden of Eden.  He is tasked with writing a book recording the deeds of mankind, to be used as a witness against mankind in the final judgment.

This matches the book of Revelation very well.  There, we see Gan Eden and the Tree of Life both pictured as being in the heavens.  In the White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20) we see that "the books are opened."  And there are the "two witnesses" as well, one of which seems to be Enoch.

  I won’t dispute the validity of this possibility, but there’s a thorn that bothers me.  If these saints are already in heaven, and if we go directly to heaven when we die, why a resurrection when Jesus returns? After all, we’re already in heaven. Why would He bring us back to earth to reunite with or reclaim our glorified bodies? ][See Philippines 3:20.]

    Many say it would it be more consistent to believe our spirit goes to an intermediate state called “Paradise,” the same place Jesus and the redeemed criminal went, and that our spirit, the real person, will remain there until the resurrection. Well, wherever we go, it will surely be a Garden of Delight. And none of us will complain!
The way I read my Bible, humanity is meant to inhabit earth, and at the end of the book, God has come down to us.  I realize that perhaps the majority of Christendom has it the other way round, with the church going UP to meet Him.  But then why a new earth?  Why the New Jerusalem descending?

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
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Offline Reformer

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #6 on: Fri Sep 04, 2020 - 14:18:42 »
JARROD:

     The “Book of Enoch,” huh? Is that similar to the “Book of Eunuch”? As to your “The way I read my Bible, humanity is meant to inhabit earth, and at the end of the book, God has come down to us."

    You will need to take that matter up with the apostle Paul who says, "And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and we will always be with the Lord” [I Thess. 4:13-17].

Thanks for your response,

Buff
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 04, 2020 - 14:21:17 by Reformer »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #7 on: Fri Sep 04, 2020 - 18:45:53 »
JARROD:

     The “Book of Enoch,” huh? Is that similar to the “Book of Eunuch”? As to your “The way I read my Bible, humanity is meant to inhabit earth, and at the end of the book, God has come down to us."

    You will need to take that matter up with the apostle Paul who says, "And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and we will always be with the Lord” [I Thess. 4:13-17].

Thanks for your response,

Buff
I think I'll take it up with the translator, instead.  "Rise" actually means "stand."  The word translated "caught up" means "carried away."  Finally, AIR only exists on earth.  In Greek vocabulary, the heavens are filled with AETHER, not AIR.

The overall sense of the verse in Greek doesn't have anybody going UP.  It has everyone gathered together to meet the Lord at His return to the earth, as He descends.  Basically, the same meaning as this...

Mark 13:27  And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Finally, why do you lampoon the Book of Enoch, when Paul, Jude, and Jesus make reference to it?  If they held it in esteem, why are you so quick to dismiss it?

Jarrod

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #8 on: Fri Sep 04, 2020 - 22:30:25 »
JARROD:

    If I might add a few more remarks to your latest. I do not see where Paul, Jude, and Jesus made reference to the “Book of Enoch.” They referred to him, yes. Enoch was one of God’s prophets, and is well spoken of by God himself. But again, nothing is said about the “Book of Enoch”—that I can find. If you have something I don’t have, or a passage I can’t find, share it.

    You noted, “I think I’ll take it up with the translator, instead. ‘Rise’ actually means ‘stand.’ “ Thayer translates “caught up together” as...

    “From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).” Bold face is mine.

    Here is something else to consider. Jesus told Pilate, “My kingdom [reign] is not of this world." He told His disciples, “In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go go to prepare a place for you? And If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way to where I am going” [John 14:1-4].

    It is obvious Jesus alluded to His being in heaven following His resurrection. Too, it is self-evident He told His followers they would be where He is going—namely, heaven. Our Lord has “prepared a place” for all of His followers—not on earth, but in heaven.

Have a good evening,

Buff
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 04, 2020 - 22:50:45 by Reformer »

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #8 on: Fri Sep 04, 2020 - 22:30:25 »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #9 on: Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 05:17:21 »
"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
(Mat 13:41-43)

Conscious, eternal torment.

Online RB

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #10 on: Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 05:32:55 »
"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
(Mat 13:41-43)

Conscious, eternal torment.
Question for you: "what is the wages of SIN" Is there ONE scripture that said its wages is ETERNAL TORMENT? No there are none. If eternal torment is the wages of sin, then Jesus DID NOT PAY for our sins, for he ONLY suffered death, and would have perished if not for the truth that sin and death/grave HAD NO POWER over his sinless life! People who preach eternal torment for the wicked reject Jesus' DEATH as a payment for our sins!

Later....RB

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #11 on: Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 06:16:52 »
The death that Paul spoke of in Roman 6:23 is the spiritual death of the one who sins. It is not physical [corporeal] death.  Physical death is an integral feature of physical creation.  It was only the fruit of the tree of life in the garden that was capable of prolonging life.  The reason that Adam was ejected from the garden was to keep him from having access to that tree and hence to keep him from living forever (Gen 3:22).

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #12 on: Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 12:12:52 »
I do not see where Paul, Jude, and Jesus made reference to the “Book of Enoch.”
That's because you haven't read it.  If you were to actually read it, you would find a bunch of places where you said to yourself, "that's the same thing said in the New Testament."  Except, it was written before the NT.

But again, nothing is said about the “Book of Enoch”—that I can find. If you have something I don’t have, or a passage I can’t find, share it.
Not sure that's a good use of time, but hey it's Saturday morning and I'm the first one awake, so I'll go for a bit.

1.  Sheep, goats, dogs, and wolves.  In the gospels, Jesus uses these words to refer to certain people groups.  Sheep are elect Israel.  Goats are the apostate mixed among them.  Dogs are they Canaanites they dwell among.  Wolves prey on the sheep by infiltrating from without.  All of these identifications come from the Book of Enoch, which has a section called "the animal apocalypse" which re-tells the history of Israel using this same peculiar convention of naming each nation and group as a different animal.

2.  The Parable of the Good Shepherd.  In Enoch's history of Israel, after God takes away their kings, he vests rulership of the country in a succession of Shepherds.  However, the shepherds abuse their power and begin destroying the sheep (for which they are eventually judged).  Enter Jesus, "the good Shepherd." And all the shepherds before Him were just there to "steal, kill, and destroy" and were merely "hirelings."  This parable is an expansion of what is in Enoch.

3.  Abel's blood speaks.  In Hebrews 12, the blood of the new covenant "speaks better things" than Abel's blood.  In Enoch, Abel is given a place of honor as the first among the martyrs, and his blood is said to continually speak out before God and accuse those who killed them, calling for God to execute judgement.

4.  Jude quotes Enoch directly.  Jude 1:14.  Lots has been written on this, so you can google it yourself.

5.  The third heaven.  This is kind of where our conversation started.  Paul's reference to the third heaven, is actually a reference to the events in Enoch, where the title character inhabits the third heaven.

6.  The final judgment, and the books.  In Revelation 20's great throne judgment, the books are opened to act as a witness against mankind.  Again a reference to Enoch, whose given task was to record mankind's misdeeds, to be used against them in the eventual judgment.

Well, the wife is awake now, so I'm going to stop.  Otherwise, I could have turned this into a very very long post.  Maybe you'll actually be bothered to go read Enoch now.  Or, maybe it's too late for old dogs and new tricks?  We shall see.

Offline Reformer

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #13 on: Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 13:53:18 »

JARROD:

    Forgive me, for I don’t mean to offend you, but most of your remarks relative to Enoch, and notably the “Book of Enoch,” is highly confusing—baffling and mystifying. Since contacting you last, I’ve been thinking perhaps your “Book of Enoch” is one of the many “Books” in the Book Of Mormon, 1950 Edition.

    I found the “Book of Enos,” plus 14 other questionable “Books,” but not the “Book of Enoch.” And since you are hesitate to quote scripture to sustain your assertions, except the one in Jude 14, I question even more what you’re saying and where you’re coming from.

    Then I thought perhaps your “Book of Enoch” is one of the extra “Books” in the Roman Catholic Bible, the Deuterocanonical section, and I found 10 extra “Books,” but not the “Book of Enoch.” Is your “Book of Enoch” found in some other church’s “Bible” other than the “Holy Bible” of Genesis through Revelation? Please answer.

    So where in heaven’s name is this book? It is not a question of Enoch being mentioned in both the Old and New covenant scriptures. I have already admitted he is. Not only do we both know he is referred to, but you seem to ascribe to him a few elements and themes I’m unable to read about. Again, why are you so reluctant to support your assertions by giving me the scriptures—book, chapter, and verse? Here are only a few of your statements that are very perplexing:

    ”Maybe you’ll actually be bothered to go read Enoch now. Or, maybe it’s too late for old dogs and new tricks?  We shall see.”

    “That’s because you haven’t read it. If you were to actually read it, you would find a bunch of places where you said to yourself, ‘that’s the same thing said in the New Testament.’ Except, it was written before the NT.”

    “In Enoch, Abel is given a place of honor as the first among the martyrs, and his blood is said to continually speak out before God and accuse those who killed them, calling for God to execute judgment.”


    Give me and the others readers of this topic an explanation of what you’re saying and where you’re coming from. Otherwise, I, for one, will remain totally confused and perplexed. “Make my day!”

Buff

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #14 on: Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 13:58:17 »
Question for you: "what is the wages of SIN" Is there ONE scripture that said its wages is ETERNAL TORMENT? No there are none. If eternal torment is the wages of sin, then Jesus DID NOT PAY for our sins, for he ONLY suffered death, and would have perished if not for the truth that sin and death/grave HAD NO POWER over his sinless life! People who preach eternal torment for the wicked reject Jesus' DEATH as a payment for our sins!

Later....RB

I reject the idea that Jesus' death was a payment for anything. Who did he pay? God or the devil? But that aside, you didn't explain the scripture that says in hell there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #15 on: Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 20:32:56 »
JARROD:

    Forgive me, for I don’t mean to offend you, but most of your remarks relative to Enoch, and notably the “Book of Enoch,” is highly confusing—baffling and mystifying. Since contacting you last, I’ve been thinking perhaps your “Book of Enoch” is one of the many “Books” in the Book Of Mormon, 1950 Edition.

    I found the “Book of Enos,” plus 14 other questionable “Books,” but not the “Book of Enoch.” And since you are hesitate to quote scripture to sustain your assertions, except the one in Jude 14, I question even more what you’re saying and where you’re coming from.

    Then I thought perhaps your “Book of Enoch” is one of the extra “Books” in the Roman Catholic Bible, the Deuterocanonical section, and I found 10 extra “Books,” but not the “Book of Enoch.” Is your “Book of Enoch” found in some other church’s “Bible” other than the “Holy Bible” of Genesis through Revelation? Please answer.

    So where in heaven’s name is this book? It is not a question of Enoch being mentioned in both the Old and New covenant scriptures. I have already admitted he is. Not only do we both know he is referred to, but you seem to ascribe to him a few elements and themes I’m unable to read about. Again, why are you so reluctant to support your assertions by giving me the scriptures—book, chapter, and verse? Here are only a few of your statements that are very perplexing:

    ”Maybe you’ll actually be bothered to go read Enoch now. Or, maybe it’s too late for old dogs and new tricks?  We shall see.”

    “That’s because you haven’t read it. If you were to actually read it, you would find a bunch of places where you said to yourself, ‘that’s the same thing said in the New Testament.’ Except, it was written before the NT.”

    “In Enoch, Abel is given a place of honor as the first among the martyrs, and his blood is said to continually speak out before God and accuse those who killed them, calling for God to execute judgment.”


    Give me and the others readers of this topic an explanation of what you’re saying and where you’re coming from. Otherwise, I, for one, will remain totally confused and perplexed. “Make my day!”

Buff

Please pardon my intrusion as this was directed to another, but as I have  been looking at this, and then the commentary and mention here I can offer what I have read,as well as the complete e-text you can read for yourselves following the following 3 links of where it came from.

Where did the Book of Enoch come from?

#1. It is asserted in the book itself that its author was Enoch, before the biblical flood. The most complete Book of Enoch comes from Ethiopic manuscripts, maṣḥafa hēnok, written in Ge'ez; which was brought to Europe by James Bruce in the late 18th century and was translated into English in the 19th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch#:~:text=It%20is%20asserted%20in%20the,English%20in%20the%2019th%20century.

#2.  First Book of Enoch, also called Ethiopic Book of Enoch, pseudepigraphal work (not included in any canon of scripture) whose only complete extant version is an Ethiopic translation of a previous Greek translation made in Palestine from the original Hebrew or Aramaic.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/First-Book-of-Enoch

#3. The Book of Enoch is an apocraphal and pseudopigraphal collection of second century Jewish texts attributed to Enoch, the great-grandfather of Noah (Genesis 5:18), which describes a group of fallen angels (called "the Grigori" -"Watchers") mating with humans to produce a race of giants (called "the Nephilim") (cf. Genesis 6:1-2). While the Book of Enoch does not form part of the Canon of Scripture for the larger Christian Churches, various groups, including the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, regard parts or all of 1 Enoch to be inspired scripture. The currently known texts of this work are usually dated to Maccabean times (ca. 160s B.C.E.). Most commonly, the phrase "Book of Enoch" refers to 1 Enoch, which is wholly extant only in the Ethiopic language. There are two other books named "Enoch": 2 Enoch (surviving only in Old Slavonic, c. first century; Eng. trans. by Richard H. Charles (1896)[1]; and 3 Enoch (surviving in Hebrew, c. fifth-sixth century[2]. The numbering of these texts has been applied by scholars to distinguish the texts from one another.

https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Book_of_Enoch

READ IT HERE:

The Book of Enoch, written during the second century B.C.E., is one of the most important non-canonical apocryphal works, and probably had a huge influence on early Christian, particularly Gnostic, beliefs. Filled with hallucinatory visions of heaven and hell, angels and devils, Enoch introduced concepts such as fallen angels, the appearance of a Messiah, Resurrection, a Final Judgement, and a Heavenly Kingdom on Earth. Interspersed with this material are quasi-scientific digressions on calendrical systems, geography, cosmology, astronomy, and meteorology.

This etext has been prepared specially for sacred-texts, and is a great improvement over other versions on the Internet, with the introduction, correct verse numbering, page numbers from the 1917 edition, and intact critical apparatus.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/index.htm


Offline Reformer

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #16 on: Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 22:10:59 »
Rella:

    You have indeed helped to "make my day" by producing this information about Enoch. Thank you very much. My initial impression was that this "Book" was an offshoot of some writer and publisher, not actually associated with the canonical writings of our "Holy Bible."

    You have confirmed my initial impression. So this brings me to affirm the following exposition:

    If the contents of any composition, such as the "Book of Enoch," collides with or contradicts any message of the inspired scriptures, Genesis through Revelation, it is counterfeit heavenly inspired scripture.

    From the statements our brother Jarrod has written relative to the "Book of Enoch," a contradiction and conflict are most certainly observed.

    Again, I appreciate the research you have provided. It is most welcome. Keep in touch.

Buff
« Last Edit: Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 22:21:01 by Reformer »

Offline fish153

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #17 on: Sun Sep 06, 2020 - 16:26:55 »
I had been away from this board for a long time. I recently came back just to check in. After perusing the threads these verses came to mind:
“So let us stop going over the basic teachings about Christ again and again. Let us go on instead and become mature in our understanding. Surely we don’t need to start again with the fundamental importance of repenting from evil deeds and place
I got our faith in God. You don’t need further instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And so, God willing, we will move forward to further understanding.” (Hebrews 6:1-3).

Whoever wrote the book is encouraging believers to “move on” in their understanding. In Hebrews 8:1 it says “Here is the main point: we have a High Priest who sat down in the place of honor beside the Majestic Throne of the God in Heaven”. He wants them to move ahead and FOCUS on Jesus Christ HIMSELF. Note in verse 2 above he talks about the fact they DON’T NEED further instruction about——-BAPTISMS, SPIRITUAL GIFTS, THE RESURRECTION, and HELL.

Have you noticed that believers often get tied up with those very subjects? And we argue for hours about them. How important is Baptism? Does Baptism save you? How should one be baptized?     Are spiritual gifts real? What about speaking in tongues? Is healing real?    Do believers go directly to be with the Lord? Is there soul sleep?     Is there a hell? Will there really be eternal suffering?

Any of that sound familiar? Of course it does. THEY ARE ALL SUBJECTS THAT KEEP US FROM TALKING ABOUT JESUS HIMSLEF. They are interesting subjects, but subjects where no one is ever fully convinced. We can make our arguments for 365 days straight and still not convince anyone that he’ll is real, or if there is annihilation.

I share this not in judgment or condemnation, or because I think I’m more “holy” than anyone else. I share it because I think the Holy Spirit wants us to GROW in our knowledge of Jesus Himself, not spend hours arguing about hell, or soul sleep, or baptism, or spiritual gifts. We will never grow spiritually if we are side-tracked into these things. You ever see someone walking towards you and you think “well, here comes another baptism discussion”? I have.

I am going to leave the board again though there are dear people here for sure. When I come back I hope to see a thread called THE MAGNIFICENT JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD AND SAVIOR. And I hope to see posts all about Jesus and the wonderful things He has done for you.   God bless you my dear brothers and sisters!!   Jesus is coming soon—- what a wonderful privilege it is to be a sheep in His pasture and a child of the King!

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #18 on: Sun Sep 06, 2020 - 18:09:34 »
And yet here you return and what do you bring up? The very thing you complain about. You could have said many other things yet you decide to post that. Whether it was intended to be judgemental or not it still comes across that way and not very edifying. Maybe you should have started a thread in the manner you suggested others to do.

Just saying.

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #19 on: Sun Sep 06, 2020 - 18:35:40 »
Fish, i agree we need to grow, if something so elemental and elementary as baptism can’t be agreed uoon by Christ followers (the first century folks didn’t seem to have that problem) how do we move forward from a point of such confusion? God didn’t intend for such confusion. And yes we are all over the board on this as supposedly mature Christians. Kinda crazy to me. If we can agree on the milk, let’s move on. If not are we ready to move on to meat? Individually we all obviously think ourself is ready for meat, but are we fooling ourselves? Stick around and school us!! I always respected and valued your viewpoints. And I valued your soul enough to persist where I thought you were wrong on something. I would hope you would feel the same aboit me and others. We all agree that Christ is the MAIN thing, and we should keep the main thing the main thing. Because of that I believe being IN Christ is essential. And baptism definitely has something to do with being IN Christ. By the way it Has been months since the last baptism discussion until YOU brought it up. If you would  like tonsee a particular thread, then YOU start it. Be an example to the rest of us. Doesn’t one piece of iron sharpen another piece or does it only point out faults of the other piece?
« Last Edit: Sun Sep 06, 2020 - 20:37:38 by Jaime »

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #20 on: Sun Sep 06, 2020 - 20:18:56 »
Yogi/Jaime—-

My apologies. I just saw all these threads about hell and it made me think of Hebrews 6:2. I didn’t mean to bring up Baptism. It just happens to be one of the 4 things the writer mentions in verse 2. At other times all 4 of the things he mentions are discussed frequently. I am not saying we can’t discuss these things. It’s just when these things become more important than discussing Christ Himself.

You’re absolutelty right Yogi. I should have just started a new Thread about Jesus. But I have to admit, I have done that before in the past. But people seem more drawn to discussing the 4 main subjects of Hebrews 6:2 than Jesus Himself. Have you ever considered the shortest verse in the Bible?

“Jesus wept” (John 11:35). Pretty amazing when you dwell on it. He cried when Lazarus died and Mary was crying about how if He had been there Lazarus wouldn’t have died. Jesus was both God and man in one body. As a man He was overwhelmed by human sadness, and the same feelings we all have when someone we loves dies.  And as God He was crying at the fact that He never intended for their to be death that causes so much sorrow. John 11 also mentions how before he cries He is deeply angry also. Perhaps angry at the Evil One for having led man into falling. The two words “Jesus wept” could have books written about them.

This is really the kind of thing I love to discuss. Far more than whether men suffer eternally or are annihilated, because we don’t know the answer to those things. It is pure conjecture. Maybe I will start a thread and just share some of the things that touch me about Jesus. Again, my apologies for sounding judgmental. I really didn’t mean to be.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #21 on: Sun Sep 06, 2020 - 20:40:16 »
No problem Fish. Again, the marathon baptism threads have been a thing of the past.  Hang around and season the pot here!
 ::smile::

Me personally I love to discus the shadows and types of Christ on every page of the old testament. Others here have their favorites about Christ.
« Last Edit: Sun Sep 06, 2020 - 20:55:26 by Jaime »

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #22 on: Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 03:54:28 »
Fish153 is a good brother and a true believer~yet the subjects he mentioned are the very ones that separates the professing body of Christ, along with a few more.

Have a RESTFUL labor day and enjoy your family...I told my grandchildren if they do not start using the pool more that I'm closing it down until the middle of spring. That just might be one of my projects in the next two to three weeks. It's nice to look at but work. I have not used it in maybe three years or more. Not much in the last ten years.
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 07:23:58 by RB »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #23 on: Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 05:54:31 »
Apparently I had accidentally locked this thread this morning. Yogi straightened me out .  ::smile::

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #24 on: Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 12:19:48 »
Since contacting you last, I’ve been thinking perhaps your “Book of Enoch” is one of the many “Books” in the Book Of Mormon, 1950 Edition.

I don't know what's in the Book of Mormon, to be honest.  Never cared enough to look!

And since you are hesitate to quote scripture to sustain your assertions, except the one in Jude 14, I question even more what you’re saying and where you’re coming from.

Uh... I've referenced a bunch of Scripture so far. 

Rev 20 & Heb 12 are cited in the post you are quoting from.  I referred back to 2Cor 12, which you previously cited.  I referenced John 10 without citing the actual chapter and verse, referring to it as "the parable of the Good Shepherd."  How did you only find the one reference?

Maybe I am misunderstanding?  Are you looking for the chapter/verse within the Book of Enoch?

    Then I thought perhaps your “Book of Enoch” is one of the extra “Books” in the Roman Catholic Bible, the Deuterocanonical section, and I found 10 extra “Books,” but not the “Book of Enoch.”

Enoch is part of the Dead Sea scrolls.  It was lost to the Western church from around 100 AD until the late 1800's, so it wasn't included in the canon (or deuterocanon) of those groups. 

Is your “Book of Enoch” found in some other church’s “Bible” other than the “Holy Bible” of Genesis through Revelation? Please answer.

Technically a yes.  Enoch has been part of the canon of the Orthodox Church of Ethiopia and of the Coptic church for as long as those churches have existed.  However, this is NOT the avenue by which the book came to us, so I don't think this matters much.

    So where in heaven’s name is this book?

A simple google search will find it.  ::lookaround::  I guess I can do that for you...

http://book-ofenoch.com/
http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/1enoch.html

It is not a question of Enoch being mentioned in both the Old and New covenant scriptures. I have already admitted he is. Not only do we both know he is referred to, but you seem to ascribe to him a few elements and themes I’m unable to read about. Again, why are you so reluctant to support your assertions by giving me the scriptures—book, chapter, and verse?

Is this what you want?

Quote from: me
In Enoch, Abel is given a place of honor as the first among the martyrs, and his blood is said to continually speak out before God and accuse those who killed them, calling for God to execute judgment.


Here's what I was thinking of in Enoch:

Enoch 22:6-8  And I saw the spirits of the sons of men who were dead; and their voices reached to heaven, while they were accusing.  Then I inquired of Raphael, an angel who was with me, and said, Whose spirit is that, the voice of which reaches to heaven, and accuses?  He answered, saying, This is the spirit of Abel who was slain by Cain his brother; and who will accuse that brother, until his seed be destroyed from the face of the earth; Until his seed perish from the seed of the human race.

Here's the verse in Hebrews that references it:

Heb 12:24  And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

If you want a citation for anything else, just ask.  I am not reticent to source anything I say.  I am not sure why you think so, or why you only found one of the four citations in my previous post.  ::headscratch::

Jarrod

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #25 on: Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 12:32:34 »
Please pardon my intrusion as this was directed to another....
Your information isn't exactly bad, but it's outdated.  It's based on the 1912 version of the Encyclopedia Brittanica, the greatest Encylopedia ever created.

Unfortunately, it's also 4 decades too early to include any information from the Dead Sea Scrolls, since they weren't yet discovered.

Jarrod

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #26 on: Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 12:53:04 »
My initial impression was that this "Book" was an offshoot of some writer and publisher, not actually associated with the canonical writings of our "Holy Bible."

You have confirmed my initial impression.
Are you admitting to confirmation bias?

Enoch is part of the Dead Sea scrolls.  It's a lost text recovered by archeologists.  It was written by Jews before the New Testament.  I am not sure how anyone could say it's an "offshoot of some writer or publisher."  Were the first century Jews looking to turn a quick buck on the publishing rights when they hid copies of it in caves in the middle of nowhere?

As for association with the Bible, there are at least 7 books of the New Testament that make references to Enoch (the gospels, 2Cor, Jude, Revelation).  That seems like a pretty good basis for establishing an association.

So this brings me to affirm the following exposition:

    If the contents of any composition, such as the "Book of Enoch," collides with or contradicts any message of the inspired scriptures, Genesis through Revelation, it is counterfeit heavenly inspired scripture.

    From the statements our brother Jarrod has written relative to the "Book of Enoch," a contradiction and conflict are most certainly observed.
Most certainly, eh?  That seems awfully vague.  Please, cite that for me.  book, chapter, verse, please.

Make my day.


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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #27 on: Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 17:44:50 »

JARROD:

    Here is your "book, chapter, and verse." They do not coincide with the divine scriptures, Genesis through Revelation. I quoted and posted the scriptures following your remarks that speak differently, such as John 14:1-4, and others.
_____

    Jarrod: The author of Enoch lays out a cosmology which includes 10 heavens.  In the story, Enoch is taken (alive, bodily) into the third heaven.  The third heaven there includes "paradise" which it turns out is synonymous with the garden of Eden.  He is tasked with writing a book recording the deeds of mankind, to be used as a witness against mankind in the final judgment.

    This matches the book of Revelation very well.  There, we see Gan Eden and the Tree of Life both pictured as being in the heavens.  In the White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20) we see that "the books are opened."  And there are the "two witnesses" as well, one of which seems to be Enoch.

    The way I read my Bible, humanity is meant to inhabit earth, and at the end of the book, God has come down to us.  I realize that perhaps the majority of Christendom has it the other way round, with the church going UP to meet Him.

_____

    It seems your "Book of Enoch" is not considered divine scripture by biblical scholars. Furthermore, from what you have quoted from it, it collides with divine scriptures.

Buff

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #28 on: Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 19:05:47 »
JARROD:

    Here is your "book, chapter, and verse." They do not coincide with the divine scriptures, Genesis through Revelation. I quoted and posted the scriptures following your remarks that speak differently, such as John 14:1-4, and others.
_____

    Jarrod: The author of Enoch lays out a cosmology which includes 10 heavens.  In the story, Enoch is taken (alive, bodily) into the third heaven.  The third heaven there includes "paradise" which it turns out is synonymous with the garden of Eden.  He is tasked with writing a book recording the deeds of mankind, to be used as a witness against mankind in the final judgment.

    This matches the book of Revelation very well.  There, we see Gan Eden and the Tree of Life both pictured as being in the heavens.  In the White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20) we see that "the books are opened."  And there are the "two witnesses" as well, one of which seems to be Enoch.

    The way I read my Bible, humanity is meant to inhabit earth, and at the end of the book, God has come down to us.  I realize that perhaps the majority of Christendom has it the other way round, with the church going UP to meet Him.

_____
What kind of non-sense is this?  You're quoting me as your book, chapter, and verse? 

    It seems your "Book of Enoch" is not considered divine scripture by biblical scholars.
Duh.  Nobody has claimed otherwise.

What I have claimed is that Bible makes references to this book.  And that a verse that YOU brought up is one of those allusions.

Don't go moving those goalposts on me, now.

Furthermore, from what you have quoted from it, it collides with divine scriptures.
I have quoted Enoch exactly once, at your request.  Please tell me how that verse contradicts Scripture?

Jarrod

 

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #29 on: Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 22:58:40 »

JARROD:

    "What I have claimed is that Bible makes references to this book." And I have agreed at least twice that our "Holy Bible" refers to a prophet by the name of Enoch quite a few times.

    But I have denied, and still deny, that our "Holy Bible" alludes to the "Book of Enoch." For if it did, we just might want to consider placing that "Book" alongside our inspired divine scriptures. But we had better not make that judgment.

    Anyway, this dialogue with you has been interesting and has provoked further study and research on my part. In that vein, I thank you.

Buff

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #30 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 07:54:12 »
Your information isn't exactly bad, but it's outdated.  It's based on the 1912 version of the Encyclopedia Brittanica, the greatest Encylopedia ever created.

Unfortunately, it's also 4 decades too early to include any information from the Dead Sea Scrolls, since they weren't yet discovered.

Jarrod

Fact are facts.

Book of Enoch is fact.

Book of Enoch was written , alledgedly, during the 2nd century BCE.

the Dead Sea scrolls were written over a time span , alledgedly from

If you are referring to the Dead Sea Scrolls icluding "The Book of Enoch" ???

"The Aramaic Enoch Scroll is a non-published, complete copy of the Book of Enoch that is rumored to be in the possession of private investors.

There is no proof of its existence, but according to the former chief editor of the official Dead Sea Scrolls editorial team, John Strugnell (deceased 2007), the scroll is well preserved, and microfilmed. Strugnell said that he was shown the microfilm in 1990, during the Kuwait crisis, but he was never able to buy it for the editorial team.

Importance
The importance of a complete Aramaic manuscript of the Book of Enoch could be immense. Michael Wise, a DSS scholar, writes: "No trace of the Parables of Enoch has been discovered at Qumran, and it is widely considered today to be a composition of the later first century C.E. If a pre-Christian copy of the Parables were ever discovered, it would create a sensation"[4]

The Parables is a part of the Ethiopic translation of the Book of Enoch. It is disputed how old it is and if it was originally a part of Enoch (although today most scholars believe it to be pre-Christian[5]). If it was proven to have been a part of the original Aramaic book, it would mean that all of its prophecies concerning the coming Son of Man, which some argue refers to Jesus, would have been written before Jesus was born.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_Enoch_Scroll

BUt we do not have any way to know if a complete B of E is actually as this article suggests    Unpublished, and actual proof of it even existing.

So you cannot use that as an argument to discount my references that I have over its existence or what has been said about B of E in my references.... ONLY fragments fo B of E discovered with the Dead Sea Scrolls have been published.

The Book of Enoch (also 1 Enoch;[1] Ge'ez: መጽሐፈ ሄኖክ maṣḥafa hēnok) is an ancient Hebrew apocalyptic religious text, ascribed by tradition to Enoch, the great-grandfather of Noah.[2][3] Enoch contains unique material on the origins of demons and giants, why some angels fell from heaven, an explanation of why the Genesis flood was morally necessary, and prophetic exposition of the thousand-year reign of the Messiah.

The older sections (mainly in the Book of the Watchers) of the text are estimated to date from about 300–200 BC, and the latest part (Book of Parables) probably to 100 BC.[4]

Various Aramaic fragments found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, as well as Koine Greek and Latin fragments, are proof that the Book of Enoch was known by Jews and early Christians. This book was also quoted by some 1st and 2nd century authors as in the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs. Authors of the New Testament were also familiar with some content of the story.[5] A short section of 1 Enoch (1:9) is cited in the New Testament Epistle of Jude, Jude 1:14–15, and is attributed there to "Enoch the Seventh from Adam" (1 En 60:8), although this section of 1 Enoch is a midrash on Deuteronomy 33:2. Several copies of the earlier sections of 1 Enoch were preserved among the Dead Sea Scrolls.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch




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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #31 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 08:15:46 »
Quote
Book of Enoch is fact.
Only in the sense that Chronicles of Narnia are fact.  The books exist.
Quote
Book of Enoch was written , allegedly, during the 2nd century BCE.
That was when it was started.  The 3rd section, "Watchers," was written in the first century ad. So the authorship was stretched over 3 centuries.
Quote
Various Aramaic fragments found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, as well as Koine Greek and Latin fragments, are proof that the Book of Enoch was known by Jews and early Christians.
Yes it was known.  The NT authors knew of it, as seemingly did their original readers; as it is referenced 3 or 4 times in different epistles.

But it being a popular read of the day does not make it scripture or authoritative.
« Last Edit: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 08:19:19 by DaveW »

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #32 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 13:58:54 »
JARROD:

    "What I have claimed is that Bible makes references to this book." And I have agreed at least twice that our "Holy Bible" refers to a prophet by the name of Enoch quite a few times.
That's not agreeing, insofar as that was not what I said. I said it makes allusions and even quotations form this book.  The Book of Enoch wasn't written by the Enoch of Genesis... I don't think anybody seriously thinks that.

    But I have denied, and still deny, that our "Holy Bible" alludes to the "Book of Enoch." For if it did, we just might want to consider placing that "Book" alongside our inspired divine scriptures. But we had better not make that judgment.
How can you stand there and deny it when I've provided 2 examples of the Bible quoting or at least alluding to the book?

Jarrod

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #33 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 14:11:41 »
Fact are facts.

Book of Enoch is fact.

Book of Enoch was written , alledgedly, during the 2nd century BCE.

the Dead Sea scrolls were written over a time span , alledgedly from

If you are referring to the Dead Sea Scrolls icluding "The Book of Enoch" ???

"The Aramaic Enoch Scroll is a non-published, complete copy of the Book of Enoch that is rumored to be in the possession of private investors.

There is no proof of its existence, but according to the former chief editor of the official Dead Sea Scrolls editorial team, John Strugnell (deceased 2007), the scroll is well preserved, and microfilmed. Strugnell said that he was shown the microfilm in 1990, during the Kuwait crisis, but he was never able to buy it for the editorial team.

Importance
The importance of a complete Aramaic manuscript of the Book of Enoch could be immense. Michael Wise, a DSS scholar, writes: "No trace of the Parables of Enoch has been discovered at Qumran, and it is widely considered today to be a composition of the later first century C.E. If a pre-Christian copy of the Parables were ever discovered, it would create a sensation"[4]

The Parables is a part of the Ethiopic translation of the Book of Enoch. It is disputed how old it is and if it was originally a part of Enoch (although today most scholars believe it to be pre-Christian[5]). If it was proven to have been a part of the original Aramaic book, it would mean that all of its prophecies concerning the coming Son of Man, which some argue refers to Jesus, would have been written before Jesus was born.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_Enoch_Scroll

BUt we do not have any way to know if a complete B of E is actually as this article suggests    Unpublished, and actual proof of it even existing.

So you cannot use that as an argument to discount my references that I have over its existence or what has been said about B of E in my references.... ONLY fragments fo B of E discovered with the Dead Sea Scrolls have been published.

The Book of Enoch (also 1 Enoch;[1] Ge'ez: መጽሐፈ ሄኖክ maṣḥafa hēnok) is an ancient Hebrew apocalyptic religious text, ascribed by tradition to Enoch, the great-grandfather of Noah.[2][3] Enoch contains unique material on the origins of demons and giants, why some angels fell from heaven, an explanation of why the Genesis flood was morally necessary, and prophetic exposition of the thousand-year reign of the Messiah.

The older sections (mainly in the Book of the Watchers) of the text are estimated to date from about 300–200 BC, and the latest part (Book of Parables) probably to 100 BC.[4]

Various Aramaic fragments found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, as well as Koine Greek and Latin fragments, are proof that the Book of Enoch was known by Jews and early Christians. This book was also quoted by some 1st and 2nd century authors as in the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs. Authors of the New Testament were also familiar with some content of the story.[5] A short section of 1 Enoch (1:9) is cited in the New Testament Epistle of Jude, Jude 1:14–15, and is attributed there to "Enoch the Seventh from Adam" (1 En 60:8), although this section of 1 Enoch is a midrash on Deuteronomy 33:2. Several copies of the earlier sections of 1 Enoch were preserved among the Dead Sea Scrolls.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch
This was... confusing to me.  The presence of a complete version of the book among the Dead Sea scrolls is unimportant.  There are very few complete books among the Dead Sea scrolls.  The Isaiah scroll and the Copper scroll are the only two I know of.  Almost everything exists in a fragmentary form, and has had to be put back together like some giant jigsaw puzzle that is missing a few pieces.

Enoch likewise was reconstructed from fragments.  It's scroll 4Q204, maybe others.  The amount of the book that was re-constructed was significant.  Translators have compared it to the Ethiopic versions, and found the text to be very similar, though the chapters seem to be in a slightly different order.

As for the Ethiopic text, it would be entirely unimportant if not for the existence of the book among the Dead Sea scrolls.

Jarrod

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #34 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 14:16:31 »
But it being a popular read of the day does not make it scripture or authoritative.
Nobody here has claimed that it is.  Reformer does seem a bit scandalized that the New Testament authors might have quoted from a book that isn't Scripture.  I'm not quite sure why that is.

The NT authors knew of it, as seemingly did their original readers; as it is referenced 3 or 4 times in different epistles.
This was the original point I made.  I am not sure why it became controversial.

Jarrod