GCM Home | Your Posts | Rules | DONATE | Bookstore | RSS | Facebook | Twitter | FAQs


Author Topic: Faith ??  (Read 9651 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5201
  • Manna: 99
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #280 on: Thu Aug 10, 2017 - 07:49:14 »
Yes, faith is more than belief and trust, it is acting on that belief and trust.

The acting is not faith.  It is faith that brings about the acting.  That is the central theme in James' letter. 

Jas_2:17  So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Jas_2:26  For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.


Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Faith ??
« Reply #280 on: Thu Aug 10, 2017 - 07:49:14 »

Offline Nevertheless

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13259
  • Manna: 427
  • Gender: Female
  • Set a guard over my mouth, O Lord!
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #281 on: Thu Aug 10, 2017 - 11:29:41 »
Quote from: Michael2012
The matter with such understanding of faith, as that in your example, tells me that people can have "faith" in man or even perhaps on things, and even in themselves, and live by such "faith" in their practical daily living. And this I'd say is the general and global deception mankind have fallen into, the very problem man should get out of. For such does not glorify God, but the creature.


 ::smile::
You are exactly right. That is the very essence of idolatry, giving what belongs to God to someone or something else. As 4WD told you in reply #269, "The distinction that you are trying to make is not about faith but rather about the object of faith."

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Faith ??
« Reply #281 on: Thu Aug 10, 2017 - 11:29:41 »

Offline Michael2012

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1416
  • Manna: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #282 on: Thu Aug 10, 2017 - 13:07:54 »

 ::smile::
You are exactly right. That is the very essence of idolatry, giving what belongs to God to someone or something else. As 4WD told you in reply #269, "The distinction that you are trying to make is not about faith but rather about the object of faith."

In other words, having faith on someone or something, other than God, is a sin. And does that not make having faith in the car manufacturer, the mechanic, the other drivers, idolatrous/sinful? But then we do drive and ride in the cars they manufacture and be on the road with other drivers. So, if we do, what do we have on them, that we are not guilty of idolatry or sin? Definitely, it's not faith. For if that is faith, then we all will be guilty of idolatry/sin. 

Now, why is it idolatry/sin, when one have faith on someone or something, other than God?

With regards your agreement with what 4WD told me in reply #269, "The distinction that you are trying to make is not about faith but rather about the object of faith.", I have to refer you to reply #270. Let me state again my response to that.

Not really about the object of faith that is what I am talking about here, but about what faith is, according to scriptures, that is, faith, more than belief and trust, is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. I point to the object of faith, only to drive the point that faith to be faith, has only God as the object. That faith is not faith, if God were not its object. That is the nature of faith. Faith can't be what it is, if disconnected from God.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Faith ??
« Reply #282 on: Thu Aug 10, 2017 - 13:07:54 »

Offline Nevertheless

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13259
  • Manna: 427
  • Gender: Female
  • Set a guard over my mouth, O Lord!
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #283 on: Fri Aug 11, 2017 - 12:31:39 »
Michael, do you love your mother? Using your reasoning from that last post, loving your mother is sinful. Obviously, that is incorrect. Now if you love your mother more than God, or instead of God, then it is sinful. It is the same with faith.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Faith ??
« Reply #283 on: Fri Aug 11, 2017 - 12:31:39 »

Offline SwordMaster

  • The Word of God is a sharp two-edged Sword!
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6690
  • Manna: 56
  • Gender: Male
  • Th.D., New Testament Studies, New Covenant focus.
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #284 on: Fri Aug 11, 2017 - 12:34:12 »
Michael, do you love your mother? Using your reasoning from that last post, loving your mother is sinful. Obviously, that is incorrect. Now if you love your mother more than God, or instead of God, then it is sinful. It is the same with faith.

 ::thumbup:: ::thumbup:: ::thumbup::


Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Faith ??
« Reply #284 on: Fri Aug 11, 2017 - 12:34:12 »



Offline Michael2012

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1416
  • Manna: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #285 on: Fri Aug 11, 2017 - 13:59:05 »
Michael, do you love your mother? Using your reasoning from that last post, loving your mother is sinful. Obviously, that is incorrect. Now if you love your mother more than God, or instead of God, then it is sinful. It is the same with faith.

Yes, needless to say, I love my mother. I love her with the love of God. And I love God more than her nor anything and anyone else.

But before I comment further on that, may I know your answer to the question in this part of my post in reply #282:

Quote
In other words, having faith on someone or something, other than God, is a sin. And does that not make having faith in the car manufacturer, the mechanic, the other drivers, idolatrous/sinful? But then we do drive and ride in the cars they manufacture and be on the road with other drivers. So, if we do, what do we have on them, that we are not guilty of idolatry or sin? Definitely, it's not faith. For if that is faith, then we all will be guilty of idolatry/sin. 

Now, why is it idolatry/sin, when one have faith on someone or something, other than God?

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Faith ??
« Reply #285 on: Fri Aug 11, 2017 - 13:59:05 »

Offline Michael2012

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1416
  • Manna: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #286 on: Sat Aug 12, 2017 - 00:54:21 »
Quote
I apologize even before saying so, but sometimes you strike me as dense as a neutrino shield.

HA!!! Love it...

That is what allowing one's bias to rule their brain does to people.

they don't actually THINK about what they are talking about, they only defend their bias.

And so you love that. Such a character. Well, I don't. I don't love it when like comments come out of the mouth of people, who call themselves Christians at that, that puts a person down, instead of kind, caring, and encouraging and godly words. 

SM, I have faith only in God. That is my bias and that is what I defend. And I do THINK about what I'm talking about. Though apparently, I don't THINK as you THINK.

How about you? It seems to me that besides God, you also consider yourself to have "faith" in others. Do you?

Offline Nevertheless

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13259
  • Manna: 427
  • Gender: Female
  • Set a guard over my mouth, O Lord!
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #287 on: Sat Aug 12, 2017 - 10:25:00 »

Michael, do you love your mother? Using your reasoning from that last post, loving your mother is sinful. Obviously, that is incorrect. Now if you love your mother more than God, or instead of God, then it is sinful. It is the same with faith.

Yes, needless to say, I love my mother. I love her with the love of God. And I love God more than her nor anything and anyone else.

But before I comment further on that, may I know your answer to the question in this part of my post in reply #282:

Quote
In other words, having faith on someone or something, other than God, is a sin. And does that not make having faith in the car manufacturer, the mechanic, the other drivers, idolatrous/sinful? But then we do drive and ride in the cars they manufacture and be on the road with other drivers. So, if we do, what do we have on them, that we are not guilty of idolatry or sin? Definitely, it's not faith. For if that is faith, then we all will be guilty of idolatry/sin. 

Now, why is it idolatry/sin, when one have faith on someone or something, other than God?



The answer is in my reply, which you quoted:
Michael, do you love your mother? Using your reasoning from that last post, loving your mother is sinful. Obviously, that is incorrect. Now if you love your mother more than God, or instead of God, then it is sinful. It is the same with faith.



Idolatry enters the picture when we give something that belongs to God (adoration, love, faith, money, devotion) to someone or something else.



Let's use the example of Abraham from Hebrews 11:8
Quote
By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
Because it says "by faith," we know that Abraham was trusting God as he obeyed. His thought process might have been something like this: "God says to go -- somewhere -- so we'd better go. I don't know why, or where, or what might happen, but He'll take care of that. We'd better start packing."

But let's imagine a different scenario, where his faith was in something other than God. Then his thoughts might have been something like this: "God says to go -- somewhere. I guess if we get lost we may find someone to help us out. I've got some valuable stuff to trade, and we'll pack plenty of food. I'll ask Dad for a little extra gold and silver for emergencies, and we can always send a servant back home to bring help if we get in a jam. I think we can do this! Let's get packed."

In our imaginary scenario Abraham still obeyed, but his faith was in his possessions, his abilities, and his family. If it had happened that way then this example would not have been listed for us. There are other times in his life when his faith was misplaced, and they did not turn out well at all, and they are not presented as examples for us to follow.

Offline SwordMaster

  • The Word of God is a sharp two-edged Sword!
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6690
  • Manna: 56
  • Gender: Male
  • Th.D., New Testament Studies, New Covenant focus.
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #288 on: Sat Aug 12, 2017 - 11:43:37 »
Quote
HA!!! Love it...

That is what allowing one's bias to rule their brain does to people.

they don't actually THINK about what they are talking about, they only defend their bias.


And so you love that. Such a character. Well, I don't. I don't love it when like comments come out of the mouth of people, who call themselves Christians at that, that puts a person down, instead of kind, caring, and encouraging and godly words. 

You may take it as a put down, but it was not given as such. It was a clear statement of why some people cannot think outside their bias box, and therefore, can't see logical inferences.

Quote
SM, I have faith only in God.


Then you live a very sad life, Michael.

Quote
That is my bias and that is what I defend. And I do THINK about what I'm talking about. Though apparently, I don't THINK as you THINK.

No, you do not. You liken faith to some magical thing that only Christians can have, and in that you are out in left field in the foul zone. There is nothing magical or supernatural about faith...it simply means believing in something. I have faith in my car keys that every time I plug them into the ignition, the ignition will then turn. I have faith in my body's ability to heal me when I cut my finger...so on and so on.

Your "faith" is misplaced if you don't have faith in order to know, with confidence, that something or someone will do something. Faith is not JUST a God thing, it is - in fact - an everyday thing.

Quote
How about you? It seems to me that besides God, you also consider yourself to have "faith" in others. Do you?

Absolutely...because I understand what faith is, and...apparently...you do not.


Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Faith ??
« Reply #288 on: Sat Aug 12, 2017 - 11:43:37 »

Offline Michael2012

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1416
  • Manna: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #289 on: Sun Aug 13, 2017 - 15:53:25 »
Michael said:
Quote
SM, I have faith only in God.
Then you live a very sad life, Michael.
Is that how it is with one whose faith is only in God? I believe to the contrary. If that is a very sad life, what is a very happy life? Is that a life like one's who have faith perhaps even in his car keys?   

Were we told by God in scriptures to have faith in others or in things other than God? I know nothing to that effect.

Offline Michael2012

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1416
  • Manna: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #290 on: Sun Aug 13, 2017 - 16:15:01 »
Michael said:
Quote
SM, I have faith only in God.

SM said:
Quote
Then you live a very sad life, Michael.

Michael said:
Quote
That is my bias and that is what I defend. And I do THINK about what I'm talking about. Though apparently, I don't THINK as you THINK.

No, you do not. You liken faith to some magical thing that only Christians can have, and in that you are out in left field in the foul zone. There is nothing magical or supernatural about faith...it simply means believing in something. I have faith in my car keys that every time I plug them into the ignition, the ignition will then turn. I have faith in my body's ability to heal me when I cut my finger...so on and so on.

Your "faith" is misplaced if you don't have faith in order to know, with confidence, that something or someone will do something. Faith is not JUST a God thing, it is - in fact - an everyday thing.

No, I don't liken faith to some magical thing.

Apparently for you faith simply means believing in something. And so every one have faith, for everyone believes in something. Even the demon believes in something. That is not what faith is according to scriptures. It is, perhaps according to you and people like you who have faith in a lot of things and in others, such as having faith in car keys.

Faith is not faith, if not in God.

Offline Nevertheless

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13259
  • Manna: 427
  • Gender: Female
  • Set a guard over my mouth, O Lord!
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #291 on: Sun Aug 13, 2017 - 18:32:07 »
Faith is not faith, if not in God.


If that is so, then why does scripture specify faith in God in several places?

Offline Michael2012

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1416
  • Manna: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #292 on: Mon Aug 14, 2017 - 00:13:59 »
Michael said:
Quote
Faith is not faith, if not in God.
If that is so, then why does scripture specify faith in God in several places?

People evidently worship many false gods, which obviously is where they have faith in. And so, I think this is why scripture specify faith in God, for faith in some other god really is not faith since these gods are false. This is the same sense as to why faith is not faith when faith is towards any of creation. No one, except in God, does one can truly trust and believe, having the nature as that described in scriptures in Heb.11:1.

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5201
  • Manna: 99
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #293 on: Mon Aug 14, 2017 - 05:58:18 »
People evidently worship many false gods, which obviously is where they have faith in. And so, I think this is why scripture specify faith in God, for faith in some other god really is not faith since these gods are false. This is the same sense as to why faith is not faith when faith is towards any of creation. No one, except in God, does one can truly trust and believe, having the nature as that described in scriptures in Heb.11:1.

Hebrews 11:1 is a description of faith in God.  It is not a definition of the word faith.  And trying to make it a definition of the word makes no sense whatsoever.

Offline Michael2012

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1416
  • Manna: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #294 on: Mon Aug 14, 2017 - 08:15:00 »
Nevertheless said:
Quote
Michael, do you love your mother? Using your reasoning from that last post, loving your mother is sinful. Obviously, that is incorrect. Now if you love your mother more than God, or instead of God, then it is sinful. It is the same with faith.
Michael said:
Quote
Yes, needless to say, I love my mother. I love her with the love of God. And I love God more than her nor anything and anyone else.

But before I comment further on that, may I know your answer to the question in this part of my post in reply #282:

Quote
In other words, having faith on someone or something, other than God, is a sin. And does that not make having faith in the car manufacturer, the mechanic, the other drivers, idolatrous/sinful? But then we do drive and ride in the cars they manufacture and be on the road with other drivers. So, if we do, what do we have on them, that we are not guilty of idolatry or sin? Definitely, it's not faith. For if that is faith, then we all will be guilty of idolatry/sin. 

Now, why is it idolatry/sin, when one have faith on someone or something, other than God?
Nevertheless said:
The answer is in my reply, which you quoted:

Quote
Michael, do you love your mother? Using your reasoning from that last post, loving your mother is sinful. Obviously, that is incorrect. Now if you love your mother more than God, or instead of God, then it is sinful. It is the same with faith.

Idolatry enters the picture when we give something that belongs to God (adoration, love, faith, money, devotion) to someone or something else.

Let's use the example of Abraham from Hebrews 11:8
Quote
By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
Because it says "by faith," we know that Abraham was trusting God as he obeyed. His thought process might have been something like this: "God says to go -- somewhere -- so we'd better go. I don't know why, or where, or what might happen, but He'll take care of that. We'd better start packing."

But let's imagine a different scenario, where his faith was in something other than God. Then his thoughts might have been something like this: "God says to go -- somewhere. I guess if we get lost we may find someone to help us out. I've got some valuable stuff to trade, and we'll pack plenty of food. I'll ask Dad for a little extra gold and silver for emergencies, and we can always send a servant back home to bring help if we get in a jam. I think we can do this! Let's get packed."

In our imaginary scenario Abraham still obeyed, but his faith was in his possessions, his abilities, and his family. If it had happened that way then this example would not have been listed for us. There are other times in his life when his faith was misplaced, and they did not turn out well at all, and they are not presented as examples for us to follow.

In the imaginary scenario, it tells us about Abraham, that he really in fact have no faith in God. What he have is confidence (not faith) in himself, that he can do this and that. Any amount of distrust, doubt, and uncertainty amounts to no faith. Faith does not exist when there is distrust and doubt and uncertainty, no matter how small that may be.

With regards his "faith" in his possessions, his abilities, and his family, what he have is not faith, but only a certain degree of confidence, no matter how great that may be, still falls short of what faith is, and where pride certainly rides with it.

I'll also take this opportunity to point out that such example illustrates what the Jews' attitude could have been towards the commandments in the Law. That one may have obeyed yet not by faith, but of a prideful self confidence.  So, we can somehow understand what Paul is saying of Israel, "Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11966
  • Manna: 346
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #295 on: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 19:02:59 »
I'll also take this opportunity to point out that such example illustrates what the Jews' attitude could have been towards the commandments in the Law. That one may have obeyed yet not by faith, but of a prideful self confidence.  So, we can somehow understand what Paul is saying of Israel, "Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.
It's a tale of the law and the lawyer.

The layman thinks, "God gave us these laws for our own good.  If I follow God, things will turn out better for us all"

But the lawyer thinks, "Now we have it in writing, we know the minimum we must do, and we shall hold God accountable for our salvation because we followed what He wrote."

Thus the lawyer destroys the law.  ::noworries::

Offline SwordMaster

  • The Word of God is a sharp two-edged Sword!
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6690
  • Manna: 56
  • Gender: Male
  • Th.D., New Testament Studies, New Covenant focus.
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #296 on: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 21:36:32 »
Then you live a very sad life, Michael.

Is that how it is with one whose faith is only in God? I believe to the contrary. If that is a very sad life, what is a very happy life? Is that a life like one's who have faith perhaps even in his car keys?   

Were we told by God in scriptures to have faith in others or in things other than God? I know nothing to that effect.

There is a point when becoming too literal hinders your growth not only as a sane person, but also as a Christian. You are being FAR too literal in your understanding of faith and what and who a person can put faith in.

As a supervisor, I had faith in my employees that they could do their jobs...what would you call that?


Offline SwordMaster

  • The Word of God is a sharp two-edged Sword!
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6690
  • Manna: 56
  • Gender: Male
  • Th.D., New Testament Studies, New Covenant focus.
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #297 on: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 21:39:54 »
SM said:
Michael said:
No, you do not. You liken faith to some magical thing that only Christians can have, and in that you are out in left field in the foul zone. There is nothing magical or supernatural about faith...it simply means believing in something. I have faith in my car keys that every time I plug them into the ignition, the ignition will then turn. I have faith in my body's ability to heal me when I cut my finger...so on and so on.

Your "faith" is misplaced if you don't have faith in order to know, with confidence, that something or someone will do something. Faith is not JUST a God thing, it is - in fact - an everyday thing.


No, I don't liken faith to some magical thing.

Apparently for you faith simply means believing in something. And so every one have faith, for everyone believes in something. Even the demon believes in something. That is not what faith is according to scriptures. It is, perhaps according to you and people like you who have faith in a lot of things and in others, such as having faith in car keys.

Faith is not faith, if not in God.

Like I said, you are taking it far too literal. Faith does not come from God, and there is no passage in the Scriptures that tells you that except for the Gift of the Spirit that is only given to those who are already saved, and for specific purposes. You, of course, are free to believe in whatever you want, but it is my humble opinion that if a person is not serious enough about his walk with God to make sure that he isn't going off the deep end in regards to doctrine, then that person isn't much of a Christ follower to begin with.

Faith is faith, because faith is just another word for belief. If you assign a different definition to it, then you are breaking numerous principles of interpretation, and are found to be a false teacher if you teach that nonsense to others.


Offline SwordMaster

  • The Word of God is a sharp two-edged Sword!
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6690
  • Manna: 56
  • Gender: Male
  • Th.D., New Testament Studies, New Covenant focus.
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #298 on: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 21:41:33 »
Hebrews 11:1 is a description of faith in God.  It is not a definition of the word faith.  And trying to make it a definition of the word makes no sense whatsoever.

 ::thumbup:: ::thumbup:: ::thumbup::


Offline AVZ

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4945
  • Manna: 108
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #299 on: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 22:13:32 »
There is a point when becoming too literal hinders your growth not only as a sane person, but also as a Christian. You are being FAR too literal in your understanding of faith and what and who a person can put faith in.

As a supervisor, I had faith in my employees that they could do their jobs...what would you call that?

I would call that a self contradicting statement.
If your employees would do their jobs correctly, they would not need a supervisor.

It just goes to show that the faith you place in people, is completely different from faith in a theological sense.
The faith you have in people is conditional...whilst the faith you have in God is unconditional.

Offline SwordMaster

  • The Word of God is a sharp two-edged Sword!
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6690
  • Manna: 56
  • Gender: Male
  • Th.D., New Testament Studies, New Covenant focus.
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #300 on: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 22:46:02 »
AVZ said...

Quote
Quote from: SwordMaster on Today at 21:36:32

   
Quote
There is a point when becoming too literal hinders your growth not only as a sane person, but also as a Christian. You are being FAR too literal in your understanding of faith and what and who a person can put faith in.

    As a supervisor, I had faith in my employees that they could do their jobs...what would you call that?

I would call that a self contradicting statement.
If your employees would do their jobs correctly, they would not need a supervisor.

I'm sorry...but have you ever held a job before, AVZ? Do you have ANY real life experience at all? Every company, secular or governmental, has supervisors. Once again your arguments come straight out of a comic book.

Quote
It just goes to show that the faith you place in people, is completely different from faith in a theological sense.
The faith you have in people is conditional...whilst the faith you have in God is unconditional.

More nonsense...all faith is conditional because it is birthed out of choice. It is conditional on whether or not I choose to exercise faith in someone or something. Where do you come from?

Practically everything that you say seems like you are on some kind of mind altering drug of some kind that causes you to make statements that are so far from the real world that it's actually quite sad.


Offline AVZ

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4945
  • Manna: 108
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #301 on: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 23:41:11 »
AVZ said...

I would call that a self contradicting statement.
If your employees would do their jobs correctly, they would not need a supervisor.

I'm sorry...but have you ever held a job before, AVZ? Do you have ANY real life experience at all? Every company, secular or governmental, has supervisors. Once again your arguments come straight out of a comic book.

More nonsense...all faith is conditional because it is birthed out of choice. It is conditional on whether or not I choose to exercise faith in someone or something. Where do you come from?

Practically everything that you say seems like you are on some kind of mind altering drug of some kind that causes you to make statements that are so far from the real world that it's actually quite sad.

Hahaha...your arrogance makes you look foolish and incompetent. I have been and am managing exceedingly more employees than you would consider to be highly experienced.
I leave the ad-hominem at that.

Every supervisor knows that much of his time is taken up by people who do not do what they have been asked to do. They either do so willfully or accidentally, but each incident simply proves that whilst managers are displaying faith in the abilities of their employees...they do violate that faith continuously. And that's why supervisors have to come to work every day.
Heck, if I knew my faith in people would not be misplaced...I wouldn't even bother to come to the office anymore.

Our faith in God is of a complete different magnitude. We know that God cannot violate our faith, and in fact we know that our faith is lacking. We should trust Him more than we do.
Our faith in God is unconditional, or at least it should be, because we know that whatever God does...we will not abandon that faith.
With people it is completely different. Our faith in people is conditional. We base our faith on how people respond to us, and if they do not respond to satisfaction...we withdraw that faith.

If you tell me that you have faith in and trust God to the same extend as you have faith in and trust people...then I would say you have a serious issue.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11966
  • Manna: 346
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #302 on: Wed Aug 16, 2017 - 00:56:14 »
Every company, secular or governmental, has supervisors.
Not remotely correct.

Most small businesses do not have the luxury of supervisors.  The first employees they hire are generally expected to work without supervision after a short training period.

For that matter, many medium-sized businesses have key employees who hold a level of expertise in something, that makes it infeasible for them to be supervised.  I.e. their "supervisor" would be unqualified to make judgments about their work, unless they were to hire another expensive expert in the matter as supervisor.

Offline Michael2012

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1416
  • Manna: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #303 on: Wed Aug 16, 2017 - 08:43:32 »
SM said:
Quote
Then you live a very sad life, Michael.
Michael said:
Quote
Is that how it is with one whose faith is only in God? I believe to the contrary. If that is a very sad life, what is a very happy life? Is that a life like one's who have faith perhaps even in his car keys?   

Were we told by God in scriptures to have faith in others or in things other than God? I know nothing to that effect.

There is a point when becoming too literal hinders your growth not only as a sane person, but also as a Christian. You are being FAR too literal in your understanding of faith and what and who a person can put faith in.

As a supervisor, I had faith in my employees that they could do their jobs...what would you call that?

Confidence. If faith, then who is a faithless person?

Offline Michael2012

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1416
  • Manna: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #304 on: Wed Aug 16, 2017 - 09:08:11 »
SM said:
Quote
No, you do not. You liken faith to some magical thing that only Christians can have, and in that you are out in left field in the foul zone. There is nothing magical or supernatural about faith...it simply means believing in something. I have faith in my car keys that every time I plug them into the ignition, the ignition will then turn. I have faith in my body's ability to heal me when I cut my finger...so on and so on.

Your "faith" is misplaced if you don't have faith in order to know, with confidence, that something or someone will do something. Faith is not JUST a God thing, it is - in fact - an everyday thing.
Michael said:
Quote
No, I don't liken faith to some magical thing.

Apparently for you faith simply means believing in something. And so every one have faith, for everyone believes in something. Even the demon believes in something. That is not what faith is according to scriptures. It is, perhaps according to you and people like you who have faith in a lot of things and in others, such as having faith in car keys.

Faith is not faith, if not in God.

Like I said, you are taking it far too literal. Faith does not come from God, and there is no passage in the Scriptures that tells you that except for the Gift of the Spirit that is only given to those who are already saved, and for specific purposes. You, of course, are free to believe in whatever you want, but it is my humble opinion that if a person is not serious enough about his walk with God to make sure that he isn't going off the deep end in regards to doctrine, then that person isn't much of a Christ follower to begin with.

Faith is faith, because faith is just another word for belief. If you assign a different definition to it, then you are breaking numerous principles of interpretation, and are found to be a false teacher if you teach that nonsense to others.

I'm not assigning any different definition to faith.

I only showed what scriptures describes the nature of faith is in Hebrews 11:1.
   

Offline Nevertheless

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13259
  • Manna: 427
  • Gender: Female
  • Set a guard over my mouth, O Lord!
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #305 on: Wed Aug 16, 2017 - 14:47:47 »
Our faith in God is of a complete different magnitude. We know that God cannot violate our faith, and in fact we know that our faith is lacking. We should trust Him more than we do.
Our faith in God is unconditional, or at least it should be, because we know that whatever God does...we will not abandon that faith.
With people it is completely different. Our faith in people is conditional. We base our faith on how people respond to us, and if they do not respond to satisfaction...we withdraw that faith.

Conditional/unconditional, and of a different magnitude, yes. But whether it is faith in God or in people, it is still faith! That, I believe, is the point of SM's example.

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5201
  • Manna: 99
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #306 on: Wed Aug 16, 2017 - 18:42:52 »
I'm not assigning any different definition to faith.

I only showed what scriptures describes the nature of faith is in Hebrews 11:1.

Yes you are assigning a different definition to faith.  That is precisely what you are doing.  There is nothing special about the word faith.  It is a simple English word the meaning of which you can get from the dictionary.  It is also a simple Greek word, the meaning of which you can get from a Greek dictionary.   If you wish to discuss the Christian faith, i.e., the Christian religion, that is something else.  If you wish to discuss the faith through which we are saved by Grace, that is something else also.  But get off of this wagon you are on to change the meaning of the word  or to conjure up some "theological" jargon. 

Offline Michael2012

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1416
  • Manna: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #307 on: Wed Aug 16, 2017 - 22:07:06 »
Yes you are assigning a different definition to faith.  That is precisely what you are doing.  There is nothing special about the word faith.  It is a simple English word the meaning of which you can get from the dictionary.  It is also a simple Greek word, the meaning of which you can get from a Greek dictionary.   If you wish to discuss the Christian faith, i.e., the Christian religion, that is something else.  If you wish to discuss the faith through which we are saved by Grace, that is something else also.  But get off of this wagon you are on to change the meaning of the word  or to conjure up some "theological" jargon.

Please then, tell me what is my definition of faith that you have understood from what I have written in my posts, so I would see if indeed I did? And that others too may see and give their comment? Else, what you accuse me of remains to be a mere accusation.

Offline AVZ

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4945
  • Manna: 108
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #308 on: Thu Aug 17, 2017 - 01:01:19 »
Conditional/unconditional, and of a different magnitude, yes. But whether it is faith in God or in people, it is still faith! That, I believe, is the point of SM's example.

Yes, I do understand the take SM has and the point he wishes to make. I also think he is incorrect because he approaches the term "faith" from a pure grammatical direction only.

This example may fall short to some extend, but this is how I would describe the difference:

- If I say that I have faith in my children, then I convey information that says something about my children. How obedient they are, or how trustworthy they are.
- If I however say that I have faith in God, then I convey information about God but I immediately make a statement of who I am.

My faith in God does not limit itself to a mindset, it does effect my whole life and it has immediate consequences for my position with regards to family, behavior, morals and relationship.
When a person has faith in people, that person still is in charge of his own life...but when a person has faith in God, he hands over his life to God.

Unlike faith in other people, the faith in God is not driven by faculties. So we expect different things from God and people.
If I place faith in people, then I set the standard and I expect people to live up to that standard.
If I place my faith in God, then God sets the standard for me and I try to live up to His standard.

Faith in God and faith in people are different kinds of faith. They have a different application and a totally different implication.

Offline Michael2012

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1416
  • Manna: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #309 on: Thu Aug 17, 2017 - 01:18:25 »
Conditional/unconditional, and of a different magnitude, yes. But whether it is faith in God or in people, it is still faith! That, I believe, is the point of SM's example.

If that is what faith is for you, then so it is with you. And of course I respect that.

As I have been saying, scriptures describes to us the nature of faith, so that, we may understand not only what the word means, but more importantly, what it is, even its nature. Knowing the nature of faith, I have come to realize that faith is faith, only in God. In relation to things and people, other than God, it could not be faith, even while we think and say it is. Faith can only be faith because God exist. If there is no God, there could be no faith, for faith is described to be the substance, of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. In other words, only in God can we believe and trust with the assurance of the things that we hope with absolute certainty of happening, to the degree that one takes them as reality. And this then tells us that faith could only be what it is with God, where there is absolute assurance and certainty, and where doubt can be perfectly absent. So, faith is not faith, if God were not its object. That is the nature of faith. Faith can't be what it is, if disconnected from God.

Those who do not believe in the gospel preached by the apostles in scriptures say they have faith, and that for certain is in other gods. Even while they think so that that is faith, it does not mean, it is, since such have not the nature as that described in Heb.11:1. So, this 'faith' they say, is really not faith, or in a sense may be said it is, but a false one at that. Of course, none of them will accept that it is false faith or that it is not faith and insist that it is faith. So what then? I think they will be guilty of making those people or things where they have faith in, as being true gods. And that is idolatrous and sinful. 

Now, considering those who believe in the gospel preached by the apostles in scriptures, the Christians. Needless to say, they have faith in God and Christ, and to no other being or thing. God is true and does not change and fulfills His promises and is all powerful. In God, the Christian can have faith, in the scriptural sense so to speak, for in Him, they can have full assurance of what they hope for with absolute certainty of happening and take them as reality.

Now, most Christians, as I was then, who speaks of having faith in things and in people. And needless to say, this is not about the matter of salvation and the promises of God. It is with regards to the practical life on earth, the daily practical living. So, the Christian have faith in a lot of things such as in the example of SM, having faith in his car keys, and in your example, having faith in car manufacturers, mechanics, and in drivers on the road. If we were to consider what scriptures says of faith, which I have explained above, this kind of thing does not fall under the description of the nature of faith. So, it is not faith, but is something else, perhaps some strong degree of confidence, but not faith. Now, if the Christian takes it to be faith, as having the nature described in Heb. 11:1, then like those who have faith in other gods, I think the Christian will be guilty, knowingly or not, of sin, of idolatry.

This brings me to the saying "the just shall live by faith". This clearly does not only refer to salvation unto eternal life, but likewise refer to the daily practical living of the believers. We then must understand that living by faith is living in a way that in everything that concerns practical living, one acts by faith, and that, not in anything else, but in God. So, in the examples mentioned above, the faithful believer, clearly must not have faith in the car key, car manufacturers, mechanics, and in drivers on the road, but his faith must be in God concerning them, so that, he prays to God about his concerns with these people and things.

Offline SwordMaster

  • The Word of God is a sharp two-edged Sword!
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6690
  • Manna: 56
  • Gender: Male
  • Th.D., New Testament Studies, New Covenant focus.
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #310 on: Thu Aug 17, 2017 - 17:47:12 »
Hahaha...your arrogance makes you look foolish and incompetent. I have been and am managing exceedingly more employees than you would consider to be highly experienced.
I leave the ad-hominem at that.

Every supervisor knows that much of his time is taken up by people who do not do what they have been asked to do. They either do so willfully or accidentally, but each incident simply proves that whilst managers are displaying faith in the abilities of their employees...they do violate that faith continuously. And that's why supervisors have to come to work every day.
Heck, if I knew my faith in people would not be misplaced...I wouldn't even bother to come to the office anymore.

Our faith in God is of a complete different magnitude. We know that God cannot violate our faith, and in fact we know that our faith is lacking. We should trust Him more than we do.
Our faith in God is unconditional, or at least it should be, because we know that whatever God does...we will not abandon that faith.
With people it is completely different. Our faith in people is conditional. We base our faith on how people respond to us, and if they do not respond to satisfaction...we withdraw that faith.

If you tell me that you have faith in and trust God to the same extend as you have faith in and trust people...then I would say you have a serious issue.

No arrogance on my part at all, AVZ...but we do see some popping out of you every now and then.

To the contrary, the point is well made even by your rebuttal...faith is faith, period. It is not given by God, it is a choice. If you are not lying, then you should know that, being a claimed supervisor. It doesn't matter how many you supervise...what matters is that if you don't place some amount of faith in the person's ability, then you let them go, you don't keep them around. I have had to fire people, and I didn't like it...but they were not capable of doing what they were trained to do, so it had to be done.

The same kind of faith that we place in God, is the same kind of faith that we place in others...the ONLY difference is that of the object of faith.

Any other definition of faith that makes faith some kind of supernatural gifting in order for people to get saved, is not only nonsense, but it is also unbiblical doctrine...the rantings of those listening to seducing spirits.

 


Offline SwordMaster

  • The Word of God is a sharp two-edged Sword!
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6690
  • Manna: 56
  • Gender: Male
  • Th.D., New Testament Studies, New Covenant focus.
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #311 on: Thu Aug 17, 2017 - 17:51:30 »
Not remotely correct.

Most small businesses do not have the luxury of supervisors.  The first employees they hire are generally expected to work without supervision after a short training period.

For that matter, many medium-sized businesses have key employees who hold a level of expertise in something, that makes it infeasible for them to be supervised.  I.e. their "supervisor" would be unqualified to make judgments about their work, unless they were to hire another expensive expert in the matter as supervisor.

Perhaps it is my definition of a company...to me, a small business is not a company. A company is a business that has numerous employees...not just two or three, and not mom and pop family owned stores.

The most "expert" supervisors that I have ever come across, were those who served in the military prior to becoming supervisors, particularly those who had the necessary military training and were placed as supervisor while still being supervised themselves. That's how the military works...and why most supervisors who have never had any kind of military training were just idiots placed in charge that usually abused their authority and continually abused those under them and ran them off. But...that's neither here nor there!


Offline SwordMaster

  • The Word of God is a sharp two-edged Sword!
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6690
  • Manna: 56
  • Gender: Male
  • Th.D., New Testament Studies, New Covenant focus.
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #312 on: Thu Aug 17, 2017 - 17:54:12 »
Michael said:
There is a point when becoming too literal hinders your growth not only as a sane person, but also as a Christian. You are being FAR too literal in your understanding of faith and what and who a person can put faith in.

As a supervisor, I had faith in my employees that they could do their jobs...what would you call that?


Confidence. If faith, then who is a faithless person?

The word faithless is particular to Scripture. And, sure, confidence is part of faith, they are synonyms...just as trust is also a synonym. The problem with you here is that you separate all the different words and meanings from faith that is part of faith, and try to make faith only a spiritual concept.

Sorry...it is not an exclusively spiritual concept.


Offline SwordMaster

  • The Word of God is a sharp two-edged Sword!
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6690
  • Manna: 56
  • Gender: Male
  • Th.D., New Testament Studies, New Covenant focus.
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #313 on: Thu Aug 17, 2017 - 17:58:18 »
Michael said...


Quote
I'm not assigning any different definition to faith.

I only showed what scriptures describes the nature of faith is in Hebrews 11:1.

Yes, you are. By negating the basic definitions of the word, you are assigning a different definition to it. The definitions of faith is as follows:

confidence, trust, belief.

Seeing things as if they are there, that are not yet there, is part of belief mixed with hope - and together they make up one definition of faith.

From that comes the assurance of things hoped for, seeing in hope that God will do something that He has not yet done.

When you cut off part of those defining equations, and only keep one or two, then you pervert the meaning of faith. And that is what you are doing.



Offline SwordMaster

  • The Word of God is a sharp two-edged Sword!
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6690
  • Manna: 56
  • Gender: Male
  • Th.D., New Testament Studies, New Covenant focus.
    • View Profile
Re: Faith ??
« Reply #314 on: Thu Aug 17, 2017 - 17:59:19 »
Please then, tell me what is my definition of faith that you have understood from what I have written in my posts, so I would see if indeed I did? And that others too may see and give their comment? Else, what you accuse me of remains to be a mere accusation.

I already have in my last post.



 

     
anything