Christian Forums and Message Board

.
The human mind consists of consciousness and sub-consciousness. The sub area is where we our minds store suppressed thoughts, feelings, and desires; in other words: things we'd just as soon forget rather than think about.

For example: most Christians cannot admit, even to themselves, their honest opinions about God because those opinions are not only unacceptable, but also unthinkable. Those thoughts and feelings about God are so disturbing that sometimes when one leaks out for us to contemplate, it actually makes us wince, possibly even shudder; and sometimes even momentarily close our eyes and grit our teeth.

I started this thread as a self-test for the fallen nature. The results are useful only when people are honest with themselves. For example:

If you were a creator, and by means of precognition knew in advance that the human life you were thinking about bringing into existence would one day require you to exterminate almost the entire batch in a deluge-- men, women, underage children, infants, handicapped folk, and senior citizens (not to mention birds, bugs, and beasts) --would you willfully and deliberately go ahead and bring all that life into existence anyway knowing full well in advance that your own hand would eventually be killing them by means of a massive die-off?

In my honest opinion (I assume we're all being honest here) no reasonable person, with normal sensitivities, would ever knowingly jeopardize so much life just so they could have their very own sandbox to play in.

• Rev 4:11 . . O Lord our God . . you created everything, and it is for your pleasure that they exist and were created.

My opinion insinuates that the creator is an unreasonable person whose sensitivities fall in the abnormal range. What does my opinion say about me? Well; obviously it says that I test positive for the fallen nature.

• Rom 8:7 . .The sinful mind is hostile to God.

FAQ: I am sometimes secretly offended, even disgusted, by the way God goes about His business. Does that mean there is no hope for me?

A: Heb 9:1-14 teaches that Christ's blood serves to sanitize our minds; and we only have to undergo that form of sanitation just once and it's good for all time; we never have to repeat the process.

FAQ: Christ's blood can stop my mind from thinking bad thoughts about God?

A: No, you can expect that those kinds of thoughts will continue to be a nuisance; but they will never again be a barrier between you and God. Christ will make sure of that. The remainder of the ninth chapter of Hebrews bears that out.

FAQ: So, how do I go about obtaining this mental sanitation about which you speak?

A: That's easy. Find yourself a place and simply speak up, admitting to God that you have a sinful mind and would like to take advantage of His son's blood to sanitize it. It sometimes helps to cover your face with your hands to give you a sense of privacy between you and God. I pray like that all the time; it works for me.
_

.
Christians are typically very uncomfortable with passages in the Bible that make God look cruel, unfair, and unloving. Much of the time when I attempt to discuss those kinds of passages with them they become reticent; they circle the apologetic wagons and begin shooting Bible verses at me like musket balls.

The Bible says that Christians are supposed to be reasonable, but I find that many of them are defensive, emotional, reactive, and thoroughly incapable of dialogue based upon honest introspection; for example:

• Gen 16:5 . . And Sarai said to Abram: The wrong done me is your fault! I myself put my maid in your bosom; and now that she sees that she is expecting, I am lowered in her esteem. The Lord decide between you and me!

Sarai attempted to take the high moral ground by insinuating that had Abram been a real man, he would've seen that sleeping with Hagar was a bad idea and refused. Therefore it was his fault for not putting a stop to her idea before things got out of hand.

People accuse God of the very same thing all the time. In their mind's eye, if God were really as wise, loving, omniscient, and all-powerful as He's alleged to be, then He would never have put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden to begin with; and when the Serpent tempted Eve, He would have stepped in and put a stop to it before things got out of hand. Therefore, they conclude, it's not the human race's fault for being what it is: it's God's fault for not protecting us from our own stupidity.

From a strictly natural perspective; the accusation is a reasonable complaint as I'm sure any of us would've done things very differently than how God went about it.
_

"Fallen Nature" is another of those words or phrases that never occurs in the Bible.  It is a construct that takes on whatever meaning the user wants.  It is usually comes from those who believe in the false teaching of Original Sin or the even worse teaching of Total Depravity.

While those specific english words do not appear in any translation I am aware of, the concept certainly is there in Paul's writings.

Romans 6:6 (NKJV)
knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.


Ephesians 4:22
that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,

Colossians 3:9 (NKJV)
Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,

The basis for the concept of "fallen nature" is that man is fundamentally different than that as God created him; and that difference derives specifically from Adam's disobedience.  That is simply not true.  The old man and the old self that Paul spoke of is what each man, each self, becomes by way of his own sin.  So that the concept of man as "fallen" clearly is there.  The deceit is what is the basis for the fallen condition.  It is in man's nature to fall.  That is the net result of being created in God's image with the free will to chose to obey or disobey.  Without such free will, there is no sin.  It is not in man's nature to be fallen. Clearly you, and all adherents of Original Sin and Total Depravity, reject that truth or perhaps fail to understand the distinction.

The basis for the concept of "fallen nature" is that man is fundamentally different than that as God created him; and that difference derives specifically from Adam's disobedience.  That is simply not true.  The old man and the old self that Paul spoke of is what each man, each self, becomes by way of his own sin.  So that the concept of man as "fallen" clearly is there.  The deceit is what is the basis for the fallen condition.  It is in man's nature to fall.  That is the net result of being created in God's image with the free will to chose to obey or disobey.  Without such free will, there is no sin.  It is not in man's nature to be fallen. Clearly you, and all adherents of Original Sin and Total Depravity, reject that truth or perhaps fail to understand the distinction.

I'd go even further - the idea that mankind was at one time created in a state of perfection and later fell is a false doctrine of men. 

All but one chapter of the Bible teaches that all men start out in an imperfect state, and it is only when we repent and follow God that we can be perfected. 

Somehow everyone follows that one chapter, though.  I'm sure they couldn't be reading it wrong.   It's normal for one chapter to override all the rest, right?

I am not sure what you are really proposing here. Are you saying, by your statement that "all men start out in an imperfect state", that all men begin life in a sinful condition?  Are you promoting original sin and that all men begin life condemned by the sin of Adam?  If so, then you must think the spirit of man that is formed in him by God is dead already from birth.

He's actually taking it a step further than you have.

I'd go even further - the idea that mankind was at one time created in a state of perfection and later fell is a false doctrine of men.

Notice carefully how he worded his statement that I quoted, plus these words:

All but one chapter of the Bible teaches that all men start out in an imperfect state

Please explain yourself. I'm listeneing~

How far did I take it? 

I know what your thinking is in this matter.  I still do not know what his thinking is.  Is he suggesting that even Adam was created with a spirit dead in sin; and similarly all men are created such?  If so, I think he is dead wrong, .

I'm sure you and I both agree that Adam was created/made in righteousness, with true knowledge and understanding~yet, we disagree on those who are born through Adam as their head. I'm sure what he believes but hinted it was different from your understanding/teaching.

no pun intended

He can take it, since he dishes it out. Do not be apologize for truth if you are convinced you hold to God's truths~I believe you speak forth what you believe to be the truth in love for others~I have no reason to believe otherwise and neither does anyone else. Once in a while, we all get close to the line of being unmerciful, but I will rather be there than compromise the truth for sake of being accepted. I'm not doing this just to be part of a social club to have friends. The friends I desire are those who love God and his word above all things.

No, not entirely.  This is probably getting too far down into the weeds,

I knew that you did not entirely believe that Adam was created in true wisdom and understanding. Yet, the scriptures will teach otherwise. He was created in the image of God, and that image consisted of wisdom and knowledge of TRUTH. In the new birth we are RECREATED after God's image per Ephesians 4;24 and Colossians:

Colossians 3:9,10~"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:"

If Adam was, as you say, created with true knowledge and understanding, then what was the real result of his eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

He lost God's image through the wiles of Satan. He because a servant of sin and Satan and at once became at enmity against God that created him.

Knowledge and understanding is acquired; it is not innate.

It is both~as long as we put on the new man the power to have the wisdom and knowledge of God is there FOR US to be used by us. If we walk after the old man, we walk in darkness without any true light and without any true wisdom directing us to the paths of peace, and true happiness, joy, etc.

I do not believe as you that God ever condemns anyone spiritually for the sins of another.  That is an impossibility for a righteous God.

By you making that statement, you are showing me you do not truly understand the gospel of Christ and how the righteousness of God is revealed therein.  I have appointments to keep, later I shall continue this, the Lord willing.

He lost God's image through the wiles of Satan.

That is just another of your constructs to agree with your erroneous theology. The Bible never makes such a statement. 

He lost God's image through the wiles of Satan.

On that point I tend to be closer to the ancient churches' position (which is similar to the traditional Jewish view as well) that at the fall mankind did not totally lose the Image of God; but that it got marred and distorted.

Man has lost none of the image of God. Man's free will and his ability to reason and rule are intact.

HEAR, HEAR!!
+1

Prove it with scriptures, which you can never do~making statements without proof is much like throwing rocks and running for cover~it is a cowardly act of a will that is not in subjection to God's word, but is at enmity against God's truths on this subject under consideration.

Gen 9:6  "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image. If the image of God was lost in mankind when Adam sinned, then this statement/command by God himself is obviously meaningless.  God does not issue meaningless statements/commands.

NwawehNyoh:

    Your "Fallen Nature Testing" is quite interesting. Numerous times, I have asked myself the same questions and mentally wrestled with myself over them. You wrote:

    "If you were a creator, and by means of precognition knew in advance that the human life you were thinking about bringing into existence would one day require you to exterminate almost the entire batch in a deluge-- men, women, underage children, infants, handicapped folk, and senior citizens (not to mention birds, bugs, and beasts) --would you willfully and deliberately go ahead and bring all that life into existence anyway knowing full well in advance that your own hand would eventually be killing them by means of a massive die-off?"

    You are, of course, assuming that God chose to know in advance that His creation would explode with rebellion and corrupt themselves with very form of evil. Is there a possibility our Creator chose not to pre-recognize what you assume He did?

    We dare not conclude He was incapable of thus choosing, for it seems He possesses only one incapability, namely, "...it is impossible for God to lie" [Heb. 6:18].

    Anyway, your narrative or puzzle is almost impossible for mere humans to resolve, explain, or figure out. We will never see the day on earth when we are able to look into God's mind and purposes and grasp all of His reasons and mysteries.     

    Only when we reach that "Shangri-la" will we fully comprehend. In the meantime, let at least try to "stay down to earth" with what we are able to fathom.

Buff

I am not sure what you are really proposing here. Are you saying, by your statement that "all men start out in an imperfect state", that all men begin life in a sinful condition?  Are you promoting original sin and that all men begin life condemned by the sin of Adam?  If so, then you must think the spirit of man that is formed in him by God is dead already from birth.

"Fallen" implies that we/they were once at the pinnacle.  I'm saying that's not true, we all start at the bottom, not the top.  Always has been.

Just like the creation, men start out "tohuw" and "bohuw."  Then God forms us.

Gen 9:6  "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image. If the image of God was lost in mankind when Adam sinned, then this statement/command by God himself is obviously meaningless.  God does not issue meaningless statements/commands.

4WD, I'll give you and johntwayne exactly what you have provided for your proof~very little for now, for why should I labor with much proof when my opponents give one or two scriptures at most to support their doctrine?

I agree with Genesis 9:6 and other scriptures that man ( and woman ) was indeed made in God's image, yet this divine image has been obliterated in some cases and marred in other cases..... nevertheless, the solution is easy; first, there yet exists some remnant of it in some cases, so that man is possessed of no small dignity; and, secondly, God, however, corrupted man may be, and he IS, still keeps in view the end of his original creation; and according to his example, we ought to consider for what end God created men, and what excellence He has bestowed upon them above the rest of living beings, by seeking to love them if all possible knowing that man was created after God's image, which "overall speaking" yet not totally limited to mean...... with wisdom, knowledge and understanding that the rest of God's creation does not have; also, and above that, in the new birth we are RECREATED after the image of God in our NEW MAN per scriptures provided above~proving we lost that image in the fall, which is the strongest point one can provided, and which one you must prove to be false if you think your doctrine is correct. So, prove your doctrine, with more than just quoting a scripture without addressing your opponent's answers to your scripture that makes you think you are correct.

Here's another one.

For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.
(1Co 11:7)

Johntwayne~consider the context in which you are yanking that scripture from and then you may understand the sense in which Paul said what he said. Need help?

1st Corinthians 11:3-15~"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God. Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering."

Question for you~"WHICH IMAGE of God is Paul speaking about?"

I think "Adam" is the entire nation elsewhere translated as "Edom."

(I do not think that that the nation of Edom was sinless.)

I am talking about the first man made from the dust of the earth during creation week.

Question. Most of you regular contributors in these types of thread say that God's image, given to Adam, was of a spiritual nature and not a physical one. (While there could be a debate on what that "spiritual" nature of Adam was this is not the thread for that)

And the primary reason for that is because God does not have a body.... is that correct?

Can anyone here define the word image?

Genesis says 27:1  So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

KJV dictionary says


KJV Dictionary Definition: image
image
IM'AGE, n. L. imago.

1. A representation or similitude of any person or thing, formed of a material substance; as an image wrought out of stone, wood or wax.

Whose is this image and superscription? Matt.22.

2. A statue.

3. An idol; the representation of any person or thing, that is an object of worship. The second commandment forbids the worship of images.

4. The likeness of any thing on canvas; a picture; a resemblance painted.

5. Any copy, representation or likeness.

The child is the image of its mother.

6. Semblance; show; appearance.

The face of things a frightful image bears.

7. An idea; a representation of any thing to the mind; a conception; a picture drawn by fancy.

Can we conceive

Image of aught delightful, soft or great?

8. In rhetoric, a lively description of any thing in discourse, which presents a kind of picture to the mind.

9. In optics, the figure of any object, made by rays of light proceeding from the several points of it. Thus a mirror reflects the image of a person standing before it, as does water in a vessel or stream, when undisturbed.

IM'AGE, v.t. To imagine; to copy by the imagination; to form a likeness in the mind by the fancy or recollection.

And image charms he must behold no more.

Definitions from Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language, 1828.
https://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/image.html

The above is fairly comprehensive and could be concluded that your beliefs are valid, though not specifically stated.

The bible tells us that God is a spirit. AGREED. But can you be certain that God has no form whatsoever?

So why did God tell Moses in Exodus 33

18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.” 

19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

21 Then the Lord said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”

So God has a face, at least 1 hand , and a back. 

This tells me that whild God is all spirit, He does have a form that would have a face, hand and back.

Jesus said...

Matt 26:64 64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

So " the power has a hand......!

Psalm 48: 8 says 8God reigns over the nations; God sits on His holy throne.

So God sits.

Isaiah 6:1  In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple.

And he has a robe.

I shall stop with the references and simply say these clearly tell us that God very well could have formed Adam in the physical image of  when He said "  “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;"

Actually, my question does not need an answer...

Carry on with your discussions on Fallen Nature Testing 

This is a description of Yeshua/Jesus in eternity. With a visible body. Feet. Chest. Head with hair. Eyes. Hands. Mouth. 
I believe our physical body was patterned after this description.

Correct.

As stated "Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness" 

The image of the Trinity....

But none the less... God still wore a robe, had a throne he sat on, Had a face, and a back part and at least one hand.