Author Topic: Fallen Nature Testing  (Read 2019 times)

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Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Fallen Nature Testing
« Reply #70 on: Wed Dec 09, 2020 - 22:03:40 »
When I hear "fallen nature", my first thought is that our nature at the beginning was that we were immortal.  Death entered through Adam, and now our nature has fallen.  It was a choice Adam made for us.  Most all of the news and our complaints are about our fallenness.   

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Re: Fallen Nature Testing
« Reply #70 on: Wed Dec 09, 2020 - 22:03:40 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Fallen Nature Testing
« Reply #71 on: Thu Dec 10, 2020 - 05:49:32 »
How I really felt about being forced to get old and die due to one man's sin?

How I really felt about being made a sinner due to one man's sin? 
You needn't worry about having to answer those questions since they certainly won't be asked; none of that happened.  Your getting old and dying has nothing whatsoever to do with sin, either Adam's or yours.  You were made a physical being and physical death is an integral part of that physical being.  Now you were made a sinner due to one man's sin; but it was not Adam's sin; it was your sin.

You might have to answer why you believed God to be such an unjust ogre that He would do such things.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Fallen Nature Testing
« Reply #72 on: Thu Dec 10, 2020 - 08:54:57 »
You needn't worry about having to answer those questions since they certainly won't be asked; none of that happened.  Your getting old and dying has nothing whatsoever to do with sin, either Adam's or yours.  You were made a physical being and physical death is an integral part of that physical being.  Now you were made a sinner due to one man's sin; but it was not Adam's sin; it was your sin.

You might have to answer why you believed God to be such an unjust ogre that He would do such things.
So you do NOT believe that Adam was meant to live forever, had he not eaten that fruit? 

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Re: Fallen Nature Testing
« Reply #72 on: Thu Dec 10, 2020 - 08:54:57 »

Online GB

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Re: Fallen Nature Testing
« Reply #73 on: Thu Dec 10, 2020 - 09:14:49 »
So you do NOT believe that Adam was meant to live forever, had he not eaten that fruit?

Was there not also a "Tree of Life" in the midst of the garden? Was it not necessary for Adam to take of the fruit of this tree in order to live forever?

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

 It seems he had not been allowed to do so before he trusted the words of his wife over the Word's of his God.

Could this be what Jesus was referring to when He said "He that endures to the end shall be saved"? Maybe the fruit of the tree of life is meant to be eaten at the end of our human life on earth, not the beginning.


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Re: Fallen Nature Testing
« Reply #73 on: Thu Dec 10, 2020 - 09:14:49 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline 4WD

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Re: Fallen Nature Testing
« Reply #74 on: Thu Dec 10, 2020 - 09:54:30 »
So you do NOT believe that Adam was meant to live forever, had he not eaten that fruit?
No, of course not. What do you think the fruit of the tree of life was?  Why put such a tree in the garden if Adam and Eve were meant to live forever?

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Re: Fallen Nature Testing
« Reply #74 on: Thu Dec 10, 2020 - 09:54:30 »



Offline NyawehNyoh

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Re: Fallen Nature Testing
« Reply #75 on: Thu Dec 10, 2020 - 11:15:09 »
.
You might have to answer why you believed God to be such an unjust ogre that He would do such things.

When I gave some serious thought to how God goes about His business, did I come to the conclusion that some of His ways are neither reasonable nor sane?

Most Christians are fans rather than followers, so when questions like that are put to them, they become reactive and defensive, some to the point of militant just as would likely happen if you were to walk into a bar in Milwaukee and criticize the Brewers. You'd likely be confronted, and maybe even somebody would throw a pitcher of beer at you.

But in my honest opinion, only a monster or someone gone mad would go about their business the way the creator in the Bible goes about His.
_
« Last Edit: Thu Dec 10, 2020 - 11:31:48 by NyawehNyoh »

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Re: Fallen Nature Testing
« Reply #75 on: Thu Dec 10, 2020 - 11:15:09 »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Fallen Nature Testing
« Reply #76 on: Thu Dec 10, 2020 - 11:35:51 »
.
When I gave some serious thought to how God goes about His business, did I come to the conclusion that some of His ways are neither reasonable nor sane?

Most Christians are fans rather than followers, so when questions like that are put to them, they become reactive and defensive, some to the point of militant just as would likely happen if you were to walk into a bar in Milwaukee and criticize the Brewers. You'd likely be confronted, and maybe even somebody would throw a pitcher of beer at you.

But in my honest opinion, only a monster or someone gone mad would go about their business the way the creator in the Bible goes about His.
_


Truly the wisdom of God is far beyond man.
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 11, 2020 - 07:09:00 by johntwayne »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Fallen Nature Testing
« Reply #77 on: Thu Dec 10, 2020 - 12:40:05 »
Was there not also a "Tree of Life" in the midst of the garden? Was it not necessary for Adam to take of the fruit of this tree in order to live forever?

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

 It seems he had not been allowed to do so before he trusted the words of his wife over the Word's of his God.

Could this be what Jesus was referring to when He said "He that endures to the end shall be saved"? Maybe the fruit of the tree of life is meant to be eaten at the end of our human life on earth, not the beginning.
We do not know whether he ate of the tree of life or not.  We do know he was not allowed to after eating the forbidden tree.  It is possible that eating of the tree of knowledge negated the effects of the tree of life.  God did say "in the day you eat of it you shall surely die."

Offline DaveW

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Re: Fallen Nature Testing
« Reply #78 on: Thu Dec 10, 2020 - 12:41:34 »
Why put such a tree in the garden if Adam and Eve were meant to live forever?
I do not presume to understand why God does what He does. It is not my job to second guess Him.

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Re: Fallen Nature Testing
« Reply #78 on: Thu Dec 10, 2020 - 12:41:34 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Fallen Nature Testing
« Reply #79 on: Thu Dec 10, 2020 - 22:50:41 »
No, of course not. What do you think the fruit of the tree of life was?  Why put such a tree in the garden if Adam and Eve were meant to live forever?
The prophet Ezekiel tells us exactly what one of the trees represents...

Offline 4WD

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Re: Fallen Nature Testing
« Reply #80 on: Fri Dec 11, 2020 - 04:38:31 »
The prophet Ezekiel tells us exactly what one of the trees represents...
True enough; but that is not the same as what the tree of life in the Garden represented.  A symbol is not limited to a single representation.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Fallen Nature Testing
« Reply #81 on: Fri Dec 11, 2020 - 18:36:33 »
True enough; but that is not the same as what the tree of life in the Garden represented.  A symbol is not limited to a single representation.
Jewish apocalyptic symbols tend to be consistent across multiple authors/books.

In Judges, Jotham tells a parable in which the Israelites invite the olive tree, the fig tree, the grape vine, and the bramble bush to be king over the nation.
Ezekiel designated the King of Assyria as "the tallest tree in Eden." 
When Daniel interpreted Nebuchadnezzar's dreams, the great tree there represented the king.
Zechariah writes down Zerubbabel as "the branch." 
Isaiah has "the root of Jesse" rising to reign over the Gentiles.
Jesus calls Himself "the true vine."
Paul writes down the nation of Israel as branches attached to the Olive Tree which is the Lord.
Revelation has Jesus as "the root of David."

In short, trees are a common symbol for kings throughout the Bible, and by extension their kingdoms (that which dwells under their covering).

So, what do the trees in Genesis represent?

Offline 4WD

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Re: Fallen Nature Testing
« Reply #82 on: Sat Dec 12, 2020 - 05:49:27 »
So, what do the trees in Genesis represent?
I assume you mean the trees mentioned in the Genesis account of creation.  The trees in the garden represent food generally (Gen 2:16-17) except for the following two tree:  They represent (1) The knowledge of good and evil (Gen 2:17)and (2) living forever (Gen 3:22).  Maybe you could tell us what you think knowledge of good and evil and living forever represent.

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Fallen Nature Testing
« Reply #83 on: Sat Dec 12, 2020 - 09:34:01 »
I assume you mean the trees mentioned in the Genesis account of creation.  The trees in the garden represent food generally (Gen 2:16-17) except for the following two tree:  They represent (1) The knowledge of good and evil (Gen 2:17)and (2) living forever (Gen 3:22).  Maybe you could tell us what you think knowledge of good and evil and living forever represent.

Amen

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Fallen Nature Testing
« Reply #84 on: Sat Dec 12, 2020 - 17:32:20 »
Maybe you could tell us what you think knowledge of good and evil and living forever represent.
Pretty sure I already did.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Fallen Nature Testing
« Reply #85 on: Sun Dec 13, 2020 - 04:10:53 »
Perhaps it is time to kick this one out of the garden and let it die.