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Author Topic: Flap in Florence continues  (Read 7833 times)

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Offline Rocketman

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Flap in Florence continues
« on: November 12, 2002, 07:05:12 AM »
I agree with Julie's comments.  There should be autonomy but to me what affects this the most is the people who feel they must write up others in their journal.   I think some of these folks will have some answers to give one day.

I recently went to hear a speaker with an elder from the congregation I work with and the speaker was very good and bibilical in his talk.  This guy was part of a church plant that has grown from 35 members to now around a 1,000.  And in growth I mean true growth not just people leaving other churches to come to this church.  They reach out to many outcasts, prostitutes, drug users, alcholics etc.  People that need to know Jesus.  And they are making a great impact on God's kingdom.  As we were driving home, the elder asked, "I wonder if they are considered a sound congregation by the other churches in  ."   My reply was, "who cares what the other churches think, they are doing God's work."  I brought up the congregational autonomy issue.  To me this is a major problem with leadership in many cofcs today.  We need to do what God wants, not what the "brethern" may or may not agree with.

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« on: November 12, 2002, 07:05:12 AM »

Offline Arkstfan

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« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2002, 01:09:38 PM »
When I use the term mainstream I am speaking of the mass that lies between the NI and the wild-eyed liberals.

The mean of NI congregations use the hermenutic of command, example and a very light dusting of inference. Silence is prohibition.

The mean of the wild-eyed liberals use command, example, a light dusting of inference and silence is liberty to act.

The mean of the mainstream use command, example, and rely heavily upon inference. Silence generally equals prohibition or at least treading lightly but they are far more likely to work up an inference to cover whatever they wish to undertake. We tend to not see them as being quite as legalistic as the NI but from a theory of hermenutics standpoint they are the most legalistic of our brotherhood because much of their theology is descended from the principles of rabbinical interpretation.

There may be no one else here who sees the "mainstream" that way but it is what I mean when I speak of them.

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« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2002, 01:09:38 PM »

Offline WileyClarkson

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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2002, 09:24:00 AM »
Rocketman,

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] I think it's highly likely that there will be yet another great division among cofcs.[/quote]

I don't think it's just highly likely---I think it's already happening!  It's really just a matter of time until it becomes solidified and openly recognized.  The interesting thing is that it seems to be more a pulling away by the more "conservative/traditional/zealot" from the "liberal/non-traditional/open", many of whom don't wish to loose the CoC identity.  An even larger question is where the present day Mainline (middle of the road) churches will fall (churches that share common views of each, are very satisfied with where they are, and have no desire to join in the wrangelings) when it does occur officially.  

I'm no prophet but I think whatever is going to happen will solidify within ten years or so, if not sooner.

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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2002, 09:24:00 AM »

Offline marc

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« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2002, 10:26:06 PM »
I can't say I agree.  If this happens, families will be torn apart.  Division will increase.  Unity will suffer another blow.

While I can't force anyone to fellowship with me, I also can't see taking steps that will sever whatever fellowship exists.  If he takes the steps, I can't prevent it.  If I take the steps, however, I will bear some of the responsibility.

I'm not talking about changing signs per se.  I have no problem with that (believe it or not, our wavering little congregation has even toyed around with the "family of God" label at times).  What I am talking about is saying that I will change the name not to become more open to the community and to open up fellowship with churches of different persuasions, but in order to form a separate identity which then becomes, in essence, a separate denomination.

I think we give the "brotherhood papers" too much credit. I honestly don't believe they have the clout among the general members of the Church of Christ they get credit for having.  I believe their goal is to force a split (thus the mass mailings and the demand that everyone choose sides).  I don't believe that this would serve the cause of unity.

The winds of change have been blowing for only a short time.  Change is not a fast, seismic event.  It is often glacial, even. At whatever speed change moves, it is a painful event.  I believe that God is working to change the Churches of Christ.  If those who are open to his voice leave, who will be left to effect the change?

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« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2002, 10:26:06 PM »

Offline janine

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« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2002, 07:53:50 AM »
P.S. Kanham:

There is a test.

The problem is, most of the time we human Christians get caught up in studying the wrong notes.

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« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2002, 07:53:50 AM »



Offline nerdneh

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« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2002, 10:02:49 PM »
Years ago when I was in Erie, Pa. there was a "mainline" church in the area that went to great pains not to be confused with any other group, so someone told me (cannot verify) that they took out an ad in the Yellow Pages that read something like this:
  CHURCH OF CHRIST
  Vocal music only
  Supports Herald of Truth and Orphan Homes
  Multiple cups at communion
  Sunday School available

Let's see, did they leave anything important out?

For Janine, be open to the Holy Spirit. He is the director and will not violate His own Word. By the way, are you near Lake Verret (ck sp). I remember fishing there many moons ago and it was a great spot.

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« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2002, 10:02:49 PM »

Offline janine

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« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2002, 10:41:04 AM »
I see the Susie-point and the Fate-point both.

Maybe there needs to be much moe emphasis on the reaching-the-lost and a lot less on notifying-the-found... but there's use for both angles.

Offline ellisadam

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« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2002, 01:32:36 PM »
As a fellow member of the C of C who has read "Why I Am A Member of the Church of Christ" several times in my life, I have come to an epiphany.  There were no signs outside of first century churches.  Everything we have called a "biblical name" in scripture was simply meant to be discriptive.  The word "church" was what they referred to themselves as.  I think that God must throw up his hands in disbelief that we actually argue over this stuff.

In HIM,
AE

Offline nerdneh

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« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2002, 07:06:05 PM »
As I posted several weeks ago, an interesting confrontation is ongoing in Florence, AL. It all started with a story in the Religion Section of the Florence Times Daily when a local church of Christ (the biggest in town) announced plans to build a mega campus with ball fields, a gym, etc. (but no McDonalds) right here in Florence.

The next week, a minister for a non-institutional church took out a rather large ad in the Religion Section of the paper and denounced and lambasted the first church and even went so far as to say he wished they would change their name from church of Christ to something else, since they had forfeited the right to be called Christians any more. I will have to admit though that this preacher is an equal opportunity lambaster, as he has creamed about everyone in town, Roman Catholics, "liberal" churches of Christ, etc. almost every group except the Non Institutional church.

OK, next level is that an editor of the paper wrote an article calling attention to the then ongoing "Light the Fire" campaign among some churches of Christ in town and asking "What kind of a church are we trying to revive?" He wanted to know if churches of Christ were going to revive a biblical church or one that spent all their energy vigorously attacking others, as in the present case.

Next level; a local minister of the churches of Christ writes a letter of protest to the editor and informs everyone that the two churches described, the one with the mega dream and the one attacking it, were "not in the mainstream anyway." So, we were encouraged to look at what the mainstream churches were doing, and not look at these two fringe groups.

Now, my question for you board posters is; "What is a mainstream church of Christ and who sets the parameters for this identification?"

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« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2002, 07:06:05 PM »

Offline Emily

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« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2002, 07:28:35 AM »
Bob....now I remember why I left Florence twenty years ago...
em
:(

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]As I posted several weeks ago, an interesting confrontation is ongoing in Florence, AL. It all started with a story in the Religion Section of the Florence Times Daily when a local church of Christ (the biggest in town) announced plans to build a mega campus with ball fields, a gym, etc. (but no McDonalds) right here in Florence.

The next week, a minister for a non-institutional church took out a rather large ad in the Religion Section of the paper and denounced and lambasted the first church and even went so far as to say he wished they would change their name from church of Christ to something else, since they had forfeited the right to be called Christians any more. I will have to admit though that this preacher is an equal opportunity lambaster, as he has creamed about everyone in town, Roman Catholics, "liberal" churches of Christ, etc. almost every group except the Non Institutional church.

OK, next level is that an editor of the paper wrote an article calling attention to the then ongoing "Light the Fire" campaign among some churches of Christ in town and asking "What kind of a church are we trying to revive?" He wanted to know if churches of Christ were going to revive a biblical church or one that spent all their energy vigorously attacking others, as in the present case.

Next level; a local minister of the churches of Christ writes a letter of protest to the editor and informs everyone that the two churches described, the one with the mega dream and the one attacking it, were "not in the mainstream anyway." So, we were encouraged to look at what the mainstream churches were doing, and not look at these two fringe groups.

Now, my question for you board posters is; "What is a mainstream church of Christ and who sets the parameters for this identification?" [/quote]

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« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2002, 07:28:35 AM »

Offline Skip

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« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2002, 11:56:43 AM »
Fascinating question, one that intrigues me.

In my college days I was a Geography major (undergrad and grad), and we spent a good bit of time dealing with the question of what 'average' (or, in Bob's case, 'mainstream') really meant. We spent a lot of time analyzing census data and experimental data. And, for example, the 'average' household, which at the time had 2.4 children, didn't exist in reality.

If one accepts my notion that 'mainstream' is roughly equivalent to 'average', then...
Who wants to be 'average', anyway?
And what church is striving to be 'average'?

But I'm still pondering the idea of 'mainstream' or 'average'...

Offline Barb1957

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« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2002, 10:59:52 PM »
Lee, as a member of the West End church, I appreciate your posting that. Thanks! I LOVE my church family. They have been there for my family in so many ways, including helping us through the loss of a child. We've seen God's love shine through so often through the people there. We love David and Melony and their precious children. I'm blessed to know them.

The first Sunday of this year, immediately before Phil Kinzer preached his first sermon, officially, as our new pulpit minister, David led a prayer. Beautiful moment.

Did I mention that I love these people?  :)

- Barb

Offline Arkstfan

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« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2002, 10:09:00 PM »
Sadly the interest of unity may make the label split an important step.

There seems to be a growing trend of attacks by church leaders who are especially offended that some wild-eyed liberal churches are daring to use the name church of Christ on the sign out front.

If a sign change is needed to lower the temperature then its not that bad of an idea. The offended will likely still mutter about them but can feel vindicated that the apostate have taken the cofC sign down and admitted that they are no longer the same as them.

Offline janine

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« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2002, 07:52:11 AM »
We'd been thinking & praying about starting up a congregation "down the bayou" where there is almost no church at all, except for people clinging to their Grandma's Catholicism.

Then Isidore and Lilli hit.  The communities down the bayous toward the bays of the Gulf were inundated.  Some homes were irrepairable.

The church of Christ up here is still running a disaster relief warehouse.  We're following up on people who initially got help from us, checking on what more we can do for them, setting up Bible studies.

Healing  after a hurricane is where we got our foot in the door down the other main bayou below town.  Lord willing, we'll grow another plant this time, too.

If we get any help at all from our current congregation, though, there will be no question and no deviation allowed.  The main sign will say "Church of Christ".  Period.

Makes Mike wonder how it will all pan out.

We still want to move down there.  We'll be jacking our home up on telephone poles. :)

Unless the Lord has other ideas, that's what we plan on doing.

Offline janine

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« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2002, 07:00:08 AM »
Not far.  It's a decent trip to there if you want a fishing expedition.

Ah, Booty, "The Church" is good enough for me.

Maybe even "the Church meets here" on a sign and that's all.

Not a week goes by without Mike telling me to urge you & Sandi to come here if you must "bug out".  Frankly, he'd like every poster I've ever told him about to "come on down!"

Heh.  If I work up a retreat with fun South Louisiana things to do between devotional sessions, how many GCM posters could I get to attend?

Hhmm... "Blast From the Bayou"... "Holy Houma Festival"... "Oak & Moss Christian Retreat"...  y'all don't mind me, I'm brainstorming...