Author Topic: For those of you who have studied or have indepth knowledge of Jewish law  (Read 2539 times)

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Online Jaime

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No expert here, but from a scriptural standpoint, the Mitzvah is the 613 commandments. Anything outside of those documented scriptural laws wouldn't be a requirement.


I don't believe that a Man must get married is in any of those 613 laws, although I do believe it was frowned upon and discouraged. Moreover, the arrangement would have been made before the man had a say in it.


As others have said, Jesus was outside of the traditions, while still remaining a lawful Jew.


If Gen 1:28 is to be considered a law within the 613, if Jesus did have a wife, under the law he should have children.

And Jesus was completely human while being completely God.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Is it possible for the commandment to be fulfilled spiritually rather than physically for Christians?  I just do not know how one spiritually can multiply if one is to fil the earth so as to take care of it.
I already explained the spiritual equivalent - evangelization.  When converts are baptized, the New Testament views this as making new sons for Abraham.

Genesis 17:4  As for Me... look, my covenant is with you, and you shall become a father of many Gentiles.

That would fit the pattern of EVERY OTHER COMMANDMENT in the Old Testament...  Uh, no... # 2, #3, and #5-10 of the 10 definitely read physical and not spiritual.
They ALL have spiritual equivalents.

Jarrod

Offline Rella

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Rella, I give my thoughts later when time permits, yet I think Jarrod has done an excellent job thus far in answering your questions. I will also give my thoughts maybe by tomorrow morning.

You using the Jews' religion to get some support to take back to the other thread shows a serious weakness in your position which you have come to embrace.

Why should you care? Other then to pin my ears back.  Of course you would never use the Jewish religion that a certain Jew
would have been following.


The Lord's sermon on the mount was given to us correct the Jews' religion on many subjects.  I for one certainly would never look to them for the truth, for you without question will end up in a terrible mess and one confused person holding doctrines contrary to the truth on just about every truth that is truly important.

Of course you would not.... but then your sermon on the mount will not answer the question at hand now will it?

But when you answer this about the sermon on the mount YOU tell me what Jots and Tittles Jesus changed in the law.



One more quick thought~You are using Mitzvah in a plural sense when it should only be used in a singular sense. Mitzvot is used in a plural sense never in a singular sense. If this is not so, maybe Dave can correct me.

By all means I am sure Dave will answer you.

I use the Merriam Webster dictionery for my words

mitzvah noun
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mitz·​vah | \ ˈmits-və  \
plural mitzvoth\ ˈmits-​ˌvōt  , -​ˌvōth , -​ˌvōs \ or mitzvahs

Definition of mitzvah
1: a commandment of the Jewish law
2: a meritorious or charitable act


Offline RB

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Of course you would not.... but then your sermon on the mount will not answer the question at hand now will it?
Yes it will, but not in the way you would wish it had! Look for my post in the morning.

Rella, I have no desire to "pin your ears back" as you mentioned, only to give to any the word of truth contained within the holy scriptures, not in the writings of the Jews' religion. If you are a lover of the truth, you should rejoice to see the truth according to God's testimony.

We will consider:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 5~It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
along with:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 19~"The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
I'm giving you a heads up on what I'm going to prove from God's word that your main point of proving Jesus was married is proven to be false from these scriptures alone!   Study up, you will need all the help you can muster up.

Jesus, John the Baptist and Paul made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake!

I'll give you another hint: FROM THE BEGINNING of God's creation certain laws were given, but the fall of man God made some EXCEPTIONS to those laws, like the law of marriage and also the command to procreate.

Ill better stop to save some for in the morning.
« Last Edit: Tue Apr 26, 2022 - 13:52:57 by RB »

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Offline DaveW

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The trigger of lust.
Also known as Puberty and its massive flow of testosterone.  i.e., God's design.

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Offline DaveW

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I am looking for some education here.
Regarding mitzvahs and even great mitzvahs
IOW .. what would be the importance of  and would there be a way to tell if such were just man made or if they came from God?
It is said Rabbi Jacob ben Asher's Code of Jewish Law (halakha) is the most widely accepted code of Jewish law ever written.
He states, in part, that every man is obliged to marry a woman in order to be fruitful and multiply.....  (Thank God I am not a man for I would have failed on all counts of this rofl)
Anyway.... do you know the origin of this and to what point in history it dates.
You can find out about Rabbi Jacob ben Asher  here:  https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/jacob-ben-asher/

As to the idea that Jews were obliged to marry, you have to go back to the 1st century bc when Rabbis Hillel and Shammai argued on that topic. 

Hillel said the command to multiply was fulfilled if you had 2 children of any gender. 
Shammai said you had to have at least one boy and at least one girl. 

Offline Rella

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You can find out about Rabbi Jacob ben Asher  here:  https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/jacob-ben-asher/

As to the idea that Jews were obliged to marry, you have to go back to the 1st century bc when Rabbis Hillel and Shammai argued on that topic. 

Hillel said the command to multiply was fulfilled if you had 2 children of any gender. 
Shammai said you had to have at least one boy and at least one girl.

Thank you Dave,

These are good for me to study.

I just was reading some quotes of Rabbi Hillel.  I love this.

"On the "Golden Rule"
Once there was a gentile who came before Shammai, and said to him: "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot. Shammai pushed him aside with the measuring stick he was holding. The same fellow came before Hillel, and Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."  - Babylonian Talmud, Shabbat 31a'

and this

On Time for Study
“Do not say: ‘When I have leisure I shall study,’ perhaps you will never have leisure.”

But yes, now looking into Rabbis Hillel and Shammai, both. There is a lot to read
and I thank you for this.

They may have disagreed what the command of miltiply and fulfill was... but they did agree it was a command.

Interesting to see that there is also an academic debate over the influence of Shammai and Hillel on the theology of the apostle Paul. On one hand, Paul was a student of Gamaliel, who came from the Hillelite school and (Paul) might have even been Hillel’s grandson

And Paul ( as Saul)  was hardly a tolerant, Gentile-friendly Pharisee. Rather, in opposition to Gamaliel’s teaching, Paul took a severe stance. And in his letters Paul expresses an Israel-centric, all-or-nothing obedience to the Law (Romans 3:19–28; cp. James 2:10

Ok... I'll stop. But just is interesting about this.

Back to reading ::reading::  ::tippinghat::

Offline Texas Conservative

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You may want to be careful when looking for answers from others at "Got Questions."

https://www.gotquestions.org/Shammaite-vs-Hillelite.html

Paul didn't write James.  Further, Romans 3:19-28 are about the failures of the law, rather than an "Israel-centric all-or-nothing obedience to the Law."

The link where part of your post comes from has some errors.

Offline RB

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Of course you would not.... but then your sermon on the mount will not answer the question at hand now will it?

But when you answer this about the sermon on the mount YOU tell me what Jots and Tittles Jesus changed in the law.
Rella, why would any Christian have a desire to follow the teachings of the Jews' religion? A religion in which the apostle Paul profited in as far as the flesh goes above many of his equals.
Quote
Galatians 1:13,14~"For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
It is a religion based upon traditions of men, teaching for commandments the doctrine of men that turn men away from the truth, and cause them to persecute and waste the true church of God, made up of believers who live solely by the word of God which has proceeded out of God's mouth~ not from the sinful hearts of men who want to be gods in the place of Jehovah God.
Quote from: Paul a converted man from the false religion of Judaism
Philippians 3:2-9~"Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
The Jews' religion is a religion of a pack of wild dogs seeking to devour God's children who refuse to bow down to them just because they think they are special being the children of Abraham.
Quote
John 8:33-41~"They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God."
The Jews' religion is a false religion based upon the doctrines and commandments of men, that turn men away from the truth~they make their boast in God, yet do not know him, for if they did, they would live solely by thus saith the Lord. We see this over and over again throughout the gospel and in the acts of the apostles, even in some of the church epistles. Why would Christians even quote one word from them is beyond me thinking they would have any truth? They are enemies of the truth of the teachings of Jesus Christ. The apostles who were Jews by nature warn us believing Gentiles of them, yet some want to jump into the bed with them and commit fornication by embracing their lies concerning Jesus Christ.

This leads me to the sermon on the mount where we see the Lord Jesus correcting their corruption of God's word over and over again on just about every possible truth one can think of!
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 12:55:18
But when you answer this about the sermon on the mount YOU tell me what Jots and Tittles Jesus changed in the law.
Jesus changed not one word, as the Jews did! Christ fulfilled the Law by his doctrine: both by restoring to it its proper meaning and true use, and by revealing the right way in which the Law may be fulfilled by his life and teachings.

Before I move on let me say that the Gentile churches of our day are NO different than the Jews' religion had deteriorated into and they too will suffer the same judgment. I have not one thing against Jews as being Jews, God forbid...... we are dealing with "their religion" , as opposed to Christianity, not them as individuals.

In the sermon on the mount Christ addresses the subject of marriage, a doctrine which the law of marriage was given in the beginning. I'll go to Matthew 19 for there it is given in more detail than in Matthew 5.
Quote
Matthew 19:3-12~"The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
I'll be quick with just a few words for now.

When the Pharisees came to tempt Christ concerning the law of marriage, his first words to them were: "Have ye not read"~showing us that the scriptures are our final authority concerning all our position on doctrine and godliness~practical living.

In the very beginning before sin entered into the world through Adam's disobedience there was no law given that would allow divorce or putting away one's wife.

ANY law given before the fall of man was subject to change after the fall of man, proving by the fact Moses allow them to put away one's wife by writing a bill of divorcement. BUT, according to Christ, this was not so FROM THE beginning, but BECAUSE of the hardness of man's heart brought about by his fall, such provisions were granted. Without question, other such provisions followed that would not have been allowed. Such as eunuchs either being born, or made so by other men, or them having the desire to make themselves so, OR, being made so by God.   

When the disciples heard this from Christ's teaching, they immediately said it is NOT GOOD for man to marry if that be the case~but Christ quickly addresses that for them. While addressing that issue, the Lord never said that it WAS COMMANDED for a man to marry, never! As a matter of fact he even went on to say that there were three kinds of eunuchs~one so born from his mother's womb; some made so by other men; some who made themselves so for the Kingdom of God's sake. He closes by saying.....He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. I have no problem receiving this truth from Christ's teachings that some men have made themselves spiritual eunuchs for the kingdom of God's sake~such people without question were men who were great men of God who gave their whole life for the service to God's kingdom on earth~such men like John the Baptist, Paul and above all, God's Son whose purpose for coming into this world was to do the will of God in being made a sin offering for God's elect.

So much more ould be added, but enough said for now.
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 27, 2022 - 04:42:34 by RB »

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Offline Rella

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Rella, why would any Christian have a desire to follow the teachings of the Jews' religion?

Who is following the teachings of the Jewish religion?

But if you don't know what transpired in the past you wont know to where God brought you.

The fact of the matter is that Paul was so deeply embroiled in the Jewish laws and customs at one time before God got hold of him for the betterment of mankind.

But there is a huge debate on whether Paul had been married ( leave the kids out of it) or not.

If you do not know where he came from in his early beliefs and followings and what was then expected of them how are YOU going to prove it one way or the other? DONT YOU DARE SAY NEW TESTAMENT WRITINGS because the concept is so unimportant to the men of that time that it is never mentioned for anyone... other then the wedding at Cana which was ore important that Jesus turned water into tine... for the imbibers, then what God joined together.

History is the most important thing we have for our futur existence.... and that included what Jesus followed and believed.

Did he correct things. Yes.

Before I move on let me say that the Gentile churches of our day are NO different than the Jews' religion had deteriorated into and they too will suffer the same judgment. I have not one thing against Jews as being Jews, God forbid...... we are dealing with "their religion" , as opposed to Christianity, not them as individuals.

In the sermon on the mount Christ addresses the subject of marriage, a doctrine which the law of marriage was given in the beginning. I'll go to Matthew 19 for there it is given in more detail than in Matthew 5. I'll be quick with just a few words for now.

When the Pharisees came to tempt Christ concerning the law of marriage, his first words to them were: "Have ye not read"~showing us that the scriptures are our final authority concerning all our position on doctrine and godliness~practical living.

In the very beginning before sin entered into the world through Adam's disobedience there was no law given that would allow divorce or putting away one's wife.

ANY law given before the fall of man was subject to change after the fall of man, proving by the fact Moses allow them to put away one's wife by writing a bill of divorcement. BUT, according to Christ, this was not so FROM THE beginning, but BECAUSE of the hardness of man's heart brought about by his fall, such provisions were granted. Without question, other such provisions followed that would not have been allowed. Such as eunuchs either being born, or made so by other men, or them having the desire to make themselves so, OR, being made so by God.   

When the disciples heard this from Christ's teaching, they immediately said it is NOT GOOD for man to marry if that be the case~but Christ quickly addresses that for them. While addressing that issue, the Lord never said that it WAS COMMANDED for a man to marry, never! As a matter of fact he even went on to say that there were three kinds of eunuchs~one so born from his mother's womb; some made so by other men; some who made themselves so for the Kingdom of God's sake. He closes by saying.....He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. I have no problem receiving this truth from Christ's teachings that some men have made themselves spiritual eunuchs for the kingdom of God's sake~such people without question were men who were great men of God who gave their whole life for the service to God's kingdom on earth~such men like John the Baptist, Paul and above all, God's Son whose purpose for coming into this world was to do the will of God in being made a sin offering for God's elect.

So much more ould be added, but enough said for now.


But as I said... nothing in the sermon on the mount suggests Jesus was or was not married. Certainly he explained all about the wrongs of divorce   Your eunuch example does not answer the question. Period.

But just like you have your immersion baptism beliefs... as does your church.  And I bet if someone not baptised became your pastor he would not be accepted..... I say, with all confidence , if the temples of the day expected their teachers/rabbis to be married and one came preaching who was not.... everyone in the congregation would know about it.

You say it would not matter? I say it would not matter that a non baptised beame your pastor too. That is church law ( man) on who they would accept...


Offline Rella

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You may want to be careful when looking for answers from others at "Got Questions."

https://www.gotquestions.org/Shammaite-vs-Hillelite.html

Paul didn't write James.  Further, Romans 3:19-28 are about the failures of the law, rather than an "Israel-centric all-or-nothing obedience to the Law."

The link where part of your post comes from has some errors.


We just have Differing perceptions

Romans 3:19-28

You said "Further, Romans 3:19-28 are about the failures of the law, rather than an "Israel-centric all-or-nothing obedience to the Law."

I see this as being quite the affirmation of Paul's when as Saul  first part of his life where everything about him was the law and how it pertained to the Jews.

At one time he had NO compassion, what so ever , or any variances outside of the law. And at one time hew was all about the Jews. Period.

But that changed with his conversion and I see in these mentioned verses  that
Paul is trying to counter the idea that good Jewish people can be justified in God’s sight through obedience to Jewish law.

To achieve justification through obedience, a person would have to be totally obedient.

 Nobody has achieved that standard. Not even when he was Saul... though he surely did claim that.

 Even the heroes of the Old Testament had failed. Abraham tried to pass Sarah off as his sister. David committed adultery with Bathsheba and murdered Uriah. If the great heroes of the faith failed so miserably to keep the law, how can more ordinary people expect to meet the law’s high standard?

James ... pretty much summed that up when he said For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

“For through the law comes the knowledge of sin“ ... "the law shines a light on sin so that we can see it."

Do you disagree with this?

Now... aside from the law the  righteousness of God has been revealed

  Paul finally saw and noted noted the failure of those who rely on the law.

No-one who relies on the law or those who do not rely on it are righteous—both are guilty (see Romans 3:9-20).

But now, he says, suggesting that a new day has dawned, Paul says that the righteousness of God has been disclosed apart from the law.....apart from the law on which people relied for so long....apart from the law that failed to make them righteous.

But it is his target audience when writing Romans that causes me to agree with the term of Israel-centric
because those are who Paul is attempting to convince away from their previous beliefs.

Romans was written by Paul to the Roman Kehila.
From https://www.themessianictorahobserver.org/2020/05/14/the-book-of-romans-to-whom-was-it-written/

"Knowing to whom the Book of Romans was written helps us determine what content in the Cepher/Letter pertains specifically to Shaul’s original intended readers (in this case the Roman Kehila) and what content pertained to all the Kehilas the apostle oversaw.

I am not going to copy and paste the entire article.... but you might find it interesting.....

https://www.themessianictorahobserver.org/2020/05/14/the-book-of-romans-to-whom-was-it-written/

Got questions is useful when they explain in simplistic terms for those who read or are searching for something. But there always are other, more indepth things to study. Ones that are forever leading to yet others.

There are those... and you know who they are.... that just wont venture past anything simplified or out of the four corners of the Holy Word.

I have so much more to read now that I have gotten some places to go.

Offline DaveW

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"On the "Golden Rule"
Once there was a gentile who came before Shammai, and said to him: "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot. Shammai pushed him aside with the measuring stick he was holding. The same fellow came before Hillel, and Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."  - Babylonian Talmud, Shabbat 31a'
Yes I love that story.
Quote
Interesting to see that there is also an academic debate over the influence of Shammai and Hillel on the theology of the apostle Paul. On one hand, Paul was a student of Gamaliel, who came from the Hillelite school and (Paul) might have even been Hillel’s grandson
Actually, Gamaliel was Hillel's grandson.  Paul/Saul was from Tarshish and both families (Hillel and Shammai) had lived in Jerusalem for over a century.

Hillel and Shammai were best friends despite their very public differences. Both men required that the students in their school be married to a daughter of a graduate of the OTHER school.  That was to ensure that their very different doctrinal stances did not divide the country into 2 different people groups.   IMO Saul was married, and his wife (being daughter to a Shammai graduate) passed on to him the Shammai school hatred of Jesus.
Quote
And Paul ( as Saul)  was hardly a tolerant, Gentile-friendly Pharisee. Rather, in opposition to Gamaliel’s teaching, Paul took a severe stance. And in his letters Paul expresses an Israel-centric, all-or-nothing obedience to the Law (Romans 3:19–28; cp. James 2:10
Yeah - Knowing the doctrinal stances of both rabbis has led me to the conclusion that almost ALL of the Pharisees who had a problem with Our Lord during His ministry were from the Shammai school. There is an incidence here:

Luke 13:31
Just at that time some Pharisees approached, saying to Him, “Go away, leave here, for Herod wants to kill You.”


I believe this was the Hillel students.  Gamaliel was school master at that time and here is how he treated the followers of Our Lord:

Acts 5:34
But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the Law, respected by all the people, stood up in the Council and gave orders to put the men outside for a short time. 35 And he said to them, “Men of Israel, take care what you propose to do with these men. 36 For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a group of about four hundred men joined up with him. But he was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing. 37 After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census and drew away some people after him; he too perished, and all those who followed him were scattered. 38 So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown; 39 but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God.”


IOW he was very lenient on our Lord's disciples; even keeping open the possibility that HE was from God. 

IT is my opinion this is why Saul went to the High Priest instead of Gamaliel to get the arrest warrants in Acts 9.  As head of the Sanhedrin, Gamaliel certainly had that authority. And it was a HUGE social insult to his mentor and teacher to go to a Sadducee for a religious matter.  But apparently Saul found his teacher too soft on Jesus and His followers.  So he did something that would have likely cost him his position in the Sanhedrin (at Gamaliel's feet) and as a student in the school.
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 27, 2022 - 09:40:31 by DaveW »

Offline GB

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We just have Differing perceptions

I debated whether to even reply to this. But it seems I must at least offer the perspective of someone who understand the Jews were not following God's Law, but were furthering for doctrines, the Commandments of men..


Quote

Romans 3:19-28

You said "Further, Romans 3:19-28 are about the failures of the law, rather than an "Israel-centric all-or-nothing obedience to the Law."

I see this as being quite the affirmation of Paul's when as Saul  first part of his life where everything about him was the law and how it pertained to the Jews.


It is a popular religious philosophy that the Jews were "trying to earn Salvation" or "Merit salvation" by follow God's Commandments. And if a couple of verse are separated from the rest of scriptures, they could be used to support such a doctrine.

But the Biblical Truth about Paul before his conversion, was that he, and the Pharisees, had rejected God's Commandments, in favor of the "Commandments of men" the Jews taught for doctrine. They followed their version of the Levitical Priesthood, with their tithes, and long flowing Robes, and Chief seats of their man made shrines of worship. He may have even participated in the search for proselytes to convert into more of the son of the devil than he was. They had the Oracles of God, but didn't believe it. They had Moses Law, but they didn't keep it.

I think it is important to establish the truth regarding this popular religious philosophy of the religions of this world, that is, that the Pharisees were following God's Law for justification or forgiveness, and teaching others to do the same. And that is why Jesus and His Apostles rejected them.

This popular doctrine is an insidious falsehood that has been planted in our minds from the religions of this world we were born into. But if a person reads what Jesus and Paul really say, this popular doctrine is exposed.

Quote
At one time he had NO compassion, what so ever , or any variances outside of the law. And at one time hew was all about the Jews. Period.

To promote a religion in which there was no compassion, or a religious philosophy where compassion doesn't exist, is to completely reject much of the Law of God.

Lev. 19:10 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.

13 Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.

14 Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.

15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.

17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.

34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

35 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure.

These are all Commandments of God that the Jews had rejected, including Paul before his conversion, that instruct compassion, mercy, forgiveness.

Has the Pharisees been like Abraham or Zacharias or Simeon or Anna, in Luke 1&2, they would have known the Christ when HE came, and not have persecuted the innocent.

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

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But that changed with his conversion and I see in these mentioned verses  that
Paul is trying to counter the idea that good Jewish people can be justified in God’s sight through obedience to Jewish law. 


As long as you recognize that "Jewish Law" and "God's Law" were two completely different things, with two completely different Authors, this might be true. "Jewish Law" was authored by the prince of this world and its children. God's Law was authored by HIM, and given us by God's Prophet's through the Scriptures.

Zacharias lived by God's Law, Saul, before his conversion, lived by "Jewish Law". After his conversion, he became a New Man, like Zacharias.

Rom. 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Now he and Zacharias and Abraham are part of the true Body of Christ, while the "children of Disobedience" are thrust out.

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, (Zacharias and Simeon too) and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

To believe God "thrust out" the Jews because they obeyed Him is simply a popular, but false religious philosophy taught by the religions of this world we were born into. I would advise that you "take heed" of men, who come in Christ's Name, that further this deception.


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To achieve justification through obedience, a person would have to be totally obedient.

But Rella, isn't it true that God knows His Children will slip and fall into sin on this journey through life? And isn't that the very reason why HE created "Justification" in the first place? How was Abraham Justified? Because of his belief, AKA, Faith, Yes? And how was his belief/faith shown? By rejecting and disobeying God's instruction like the Pharisees did? Or by submitting to God and HIS instruction, like Zacharias did?

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Nobody has achieved that standard. Not even when he was Saul... though he surely did claim that.

But according to the Holy Scriptures, Abraham, Abel, Noah, Job, Caleb, Joshua, Gideon, Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, and many others did achieve that standard in God's Eyes. At least according to the Scriptures. As David says in the Psalms 14; "There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

Paul didn't claim he was obedient to God, though "many" of this worlds self proclaimed "ministers of righteousness" preach he did. He was Zealous for the Religious Traditions of his fathers. And he was a perfect follower of the Pharisees Law.

Gal. 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

Phil. 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, (Pharisees Law) blameless.


Rella, the teaching that Saul was obedient to God before his conversion, is popular doctrine in the religions of this world we were born into, but as Jesus Himself warned us, "many" of these religious philosophies are just not true.`

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.


Quote
Even the heroes of the Old Testament had failed. Abraham tried to pass Sarah off as his sister. David committed adultery with Bathsheba and murdered Uriah. If the great heroes of the faith failed so miserably to keep the law, how can more ordinary people expect to meet the law’s high standard?

Sarah was Abraham's half sister.

David paid a massive price for his indiscretion. Humiliation beyond anything you or I have ever experienced. The loss of his son that was his fault, a burden most of us would be crushed under had God done this to us.. The loss of his kingdom to an underserving son. And yet, through all this, David stayed faithful and Loyal to God. And here is God's Word's regarding His Servant David after all this transpired.

2 King. 18:1 Now it came to pass in the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, that Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign. 2 Twenty and five years old was he when he began to reign; and he reigned twenty and nine years in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Abi, the daughter of Zachariah. 3 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did. 4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan. 5 He trusted in the LORD God of Israel; so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor any that were before him. 6 For he clave to the LORD, and departed not from following him, but kept his commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses.


Your judgment of these men, and God's Judgment are two completely different things. This is because we have all had these "little leaven" planted in our mind by the religions of this world. Personally, I could never again "Look on the Nakedness of David". And God's Judgment of him, is my judgment of him. I could never hold him up as an excuse for being found in iniquity, although "many" do, as God's Prophet also prophesied.

2 Sam. 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

There are so many doctrines that are built on the falsehood; "the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by obeying God"

I just wanted to show you a perspective of someone who believe Jesus' Word's defining the Pharisees. I don't want to make this post any longer, and I understand most will not receive this understanding because it does bring question to a lot of this world's religious philosophies.

I hope you might consider these things in your quest to understand God's Law regarding marriage.

Great topic.

]

Offline Rella

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 author=GB link=topic=110903.msg1055200082#msg1055200082 date=1651074067]
Quote
As long as you recognize that "Jewish Law" and "God's Law" were two completely different things, with two completely different Authors, this might be true. "Jewish Law" was authored by the prince of this world and its children. God's Law was authored by HIM, and given us by God's Prophet's through the Scriptures.

You have a lot of good points to chew on and at the moment I am lacking time.

But certainly Jewish Law and God's law were two things.

But for some reason people... even unto today... do not understand that it has been that way through out history, even unto today with all the variations of all the religions through out the world.

The "Christian " ones are no exception.

You have the rules/laws set up by man in addition to those that are directed by God.  (Think Reformation for a start)

Then think of the Protestant variations within the Reformation.

WHY would anyone expect the Jews to have been different.

Certainly when Moses brought those tablets man needed more then 10 commands to live the rest of their lives?

God asked ( commanded) Abraham to sacrifice his son, and he was willing... until God saw the obedience in him and saved the boy.

Why would a people not believe that by following the rules/laws/commands that they would find favor?/ Redemption?/ Salvation.

Do you think only the  commands that were worthy came out of the mouth of God? Or can you concede that the learned among them gave the flock rules to live by that were carried through the generations.

After all.. a marriage ceremony , that was sanctioned by God.... was not done by anything He directed. That all came about
because of the multiply and fil the earth directive of God.. and people chose how to observe that.

I have to run.

 


Offline GB

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author=GB link=topic=110903.msg1055200082#msg1055200082 date=1651074067]
You have a lot of good points to chew on and at the moment I am lacking time.

But certainly Jewish Law and God's law were two things.

But for some reason people... even unto today... do not understand that it has been that way through out history, even unto today with all the variations of all the religions through out the world.

The "Christian " ones are no exception.

You have the rules/laws set up by man in addition to those that are directed by God.  (Think Reformation for a start)

Then think of the Protestant variations within the Reformation.

WHY would anyone expect the Jews to have been different.


Wise words to be sure. There is no difference in my view. A reality not accepted by either religion.



Quote
Certainly when Moses brought those tablets man needed more then 10 commands to live the rest of their lives?

Absolutely, God also defines His Commandments, without which we would not know how to Love Him, nor would be understand His definition of  Loving each other.. Jesus said, "man was to live by "Every" Word which Proceeds from the mouth of God". I think there is evidence that Abel, Job, Noah, Abraham, Caleb, Joshua, Zacharias, Simeon, etc., understood this.


Quote
God asked ( commanded) Abraham to sacrifice his son, and he was willing... until God saw the obedience in him and saved the boy.

Yes, and before that he was instructed to leave his father and mother, his brothers, the religion he was born into, his friends, his life, and follow God to a place Abraham had never been.

I think Jesus promoted the same instruction.

Matt. 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.


Quote
Why would a people not believe that by following the rules/laws/commands that they would find favor?/ Redemption?/ Salvation.


That is a great question. But I believe Jesus answers it.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Two kinds of people here. They both naturally loves darkness (ego, pride, selfishness, greed, hatred, etc)

But one hides from the Light, (Word of God) so this darkness is preserved. And the other comes to the Light (Word of God) so this darkness can be exposed, and then destroyed.

Quote
Do you think only the  commands that were worthy came out of the mouth of God? Or can you concede that the learned among them gave the flock rules to live by that were carried through the generations.

Wow, another great question. I was not expecting this Rella. What a wonderful surprise, you are actually having a conversation with me. Thank you so much.

I do believe that it was wrong for them to Judge God's instruction, some as worthy of their honor and respect, and others not worthy of their honor and respect. Paul seems to say this in the first part of his letter to the romans.

Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

I would concede that these men, revered as Shepherds, led Israel astray with doctrines and traditions of men. God sent them Prophets to correct them, but they didn't harken. Then HE sent His Son, and they rejected and killed Him as well. But God always had a remnant who followed Him. These were called men of Faith. I think the stories written about both were written for you and I's admonition.


Quote
After all.. a marriage ceremony , that was sanctioned by God.... was not done by anything He directed. That all came about
because of the multiply and fil the earth directive of God.. and people chose how to observe that.

I have to run.

People do have their traditions. Weddings, Funerals all turned into a cash cow for certain businesses, by the very religious tradition surrounding them. But the joining of a man and his wife, was supposed to be between the couple and God, in my understanding.

Mark 10:7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; 8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. 9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

He also said "Give unto Caesar", so depending what part of the world we live in, there may be requirements by the local " Caesars".

Other than that, I don't believe a piece of paper, or a gathering, or a man made shrine of worship, with a preacher, is even necessary, accept in satisfaction of ancient tradition.

I know you are busy, but I really am enjoying this exchange. Please, when you get time, continue if you want.


Offline Alan

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After all.. a marriage ceremony , that was sanctioned by God.... was not done by anything He directed. That all came about
because of the multiply and fil the earth directive of God.. and people chose how to observe that.


The Lord said "be fruitful and multiply", nothing else. Therefore, nothing can be placed into law that never existed in the first place. The people could create tradition, such as weddings and funerals, but that isn't the same as the law. Jesus told his disciple, "follow me and let the dead bury their own dead" when asked to attend his fathers' funeral.

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Who is following the teachings of the Jewish religion?
You are~there's ample proof from your own thread.

In your OP you clearly stated:
Quote from: Rella  Thu Apr 21, 2022 - 09:04:47
It is said Rabbi Jacob ben Asher's Code of Jewish Law (halakha) is the most widely accepted code of Jewish law ever written.

He states, in part, that every man is obliged to marry a woman in order to be fruitful and multiply.....
There's much more proof:
Quote from: Rella Reply #5 on: Sat Apr 23, 2022 - 17:37:05
Page 73 of Lee's book tells us that "So men and women often faced the death of a spouse at younger ages and more often that in today's western world at least. For that reason , many scholars think Paul was what we would call today a widower - thought that word wasn't used to describe men at that time but was only used to refer to women. A MAN WHO HAD LOST HIS WIFE TO DEATH WAS SIMPLY REFERRED TO AS "UNMARRIED"
Quoting Lee's book in laboring to use the Jewish laws/history to support the fable that Jesus was married.

Here's a much longer quote from you laboring to prove your point that Jesus was married by using Jewish law and traditions.
Quote from: Rella Reply #13 on: Sun Apr 24, 2022 - 07:44:00
LEVEL: ADVANCED

The author of this says Jewish tradition teaches that there are 613 commandments
This is the list of 613 identified by Rambam
The order and organization is my own

Below is a list of the 613 mitzvot (commandments). It is based primarily on the list compiled by Rambam in the Mishneh Torah, but I have consulted other sources as well. As I said in the page on halakhah, Rambam's list is probably the most widely accepted list, but it is not the only one. The order is my own, as are the explanations of how some rules are derived from some biblical passages.

For each mitzvah, I have provided a citation to the biblical passage or passages from which it is derived, based primarily on Rambam. For commandments that can be observed today, I have also provided citations to the Chafetz Chayim's Concise Book of Mitzvot (CCA refers to affirmative commandments; CCN refers to negative commandments; CCI refers to commandments that only apply in Israel). Commandments that cannot be observed today primarily relate to the Temple, its sacrifices and services (because the Temple does not exist) and criminal procedures (because the theocratic state of Israel does not exist).

https://www.jewfaq.org/613-commandments

I am not going to copy and paste them all here.....

I will say I am simply amazed that among the regular posters here that often will spout all things Jewish, that there is not anyone who can explain the importance of mitzvahs... or talk about why one in particular was referenced as a great mitzvah

(OR THAT)... Even Ha'Ezer 1:1, a selection of Rabbi Jacob be Asher's ode of Jewish Law ( halakah) which is the most widely accepted code of Jewish Law ever written: ....(IS JUSTFULL OF BEANS)

Which reads

"Every man is obligated to marry a woman in order  to be fruitful and to multiply and anyone who doesn't engage in being fruitful and multiplying,[it] is as if he spills blood , and lessons the appearance, and causes the divine presence to depart from Israel. He who does not marry is not allowed to make a blessing or to engage in Torah etc. and he is not called a man..." (2)

The rabbi continues, with his extensive knowledge of Israel's rabbinical and legal history explaining the way Jewish people applied this command in passage 3.

" It is incumbent on every man that they should marry a woman at the age of 18 and the diligent get married at the age of 13 and this mitzvah is for those who choose it, but before the age of 13 one should not marry , because it is similar to harlotry.
If 20 years go by and he has not taken a wife and he who lets 20 years pass, or he does not want to marry, the courts can force him to marry in orer to fulfill the mitzvah of being fruitful and multiplying."(3)

This is what I had wanted to learn and talk about.... but obviously no one can
I'm not the only one seeing this from you.
Quote from: Jarrod  Reply #15 on: Mon Apr 25, 2022 - 12:45:18
Instead of applying the standard of Rabbi Yaakob-ben-whatever... apply Jesus teachings.
Which I shall prove you avoid doing so. Again you said:
Quote from: Rella Reply #18 on: Mon Apr 25, 2022 - 16:59:56
I posted " Then explain what GOD meant in Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: (if sex was not involved)

Which has not been answered yet.

And based on

 we are told the first mitzvah in the Torah is to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth.. This mitzvah is considered "a great mitzvah" and in some cases overrides certain other laws.

Even Ha'Ezer 1:1 , a section of Rabbi Jacob ben Asher's Code of Jewish Law (halakha) which is the most widely accepted code of Jewish law ever written:

"Every man is obligated to marry a woman in order to be fruitful and multiply and anyone who doesn't who doesn't engage in being fruitful and multiplying.[it] is as if he spills blood, and lessens the appearance , and causes the divine presence to depart from Israel. He who does not marry is not allowed to make a blessing or to engage in Torah etc. and he is not called a man....

So you say this is false.

I dont know if it is or isnt cause no one will talk of these mitzvah things... so I will err on the side of caution....

You asked this question:
Quote from: Rella Reply #25 on: Tue Apr 26, 2022 - 07:21:30
Then how could we trust Him if he did avoid the expected.?
I answered that very question with my examples of the eunuchs. But, I first prove (if one would accept the scriptures alone for their truths) Genesis 1:28 was given before the fall of man, and many things changed afterward, even the law of marriage itself changed~by Moses adding an "Exception Clause" to the law of marriage, because of man's hardness of heart as the results of the fall of Adam~BUT, from the beginning...that's from Genesis 1:28 there was NO exception clause to marriage. The Jews' religion could NOT figure this out by reading their own scriptures!

I can easily trust Jesus Christ the Son of God who made himself a eunuch for the mission on which his Father sent him on~and he was totally CONSUMED doing that mission. So many scriptures to support this, if one would only apply themselves in searching to see, instead of following Jewish fables.
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 07:34:28
But if you don't know what transpired in the past you wont know to where God brought you.
I have the scriptures, and do not need the traditions of men who are biased in their writings. One is a sure foundation, the other built upon sand. You chose!
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 07:34:28
But there is a huge debate on whether Paul had been married ( leave the kids out of it) or not.
Huge? Not if one follows the scriptures, there is no debate.
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 7:7~"For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that."
I may stop for now, but I do have a scripture or two for your consideration....
Quote from: From a man who was NOT married, and never had been...Paul
1st Corinthians 7:33,34~"But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband."
Marriage is a wonderful gift from God, but it has its drawbacks in as much as it DOES HINDER a person MORE SO than an unmarried person who has the GIFT from God to remain unmarried and pure both in body and spirit. Jesus was totally consumed in doing the mission God gave him to do WITHOUT a helpmeet, his help came solely from heaven's throne~do you need me to provide scriptures to prove what I'm saying, and if I did, would you believe them? 
« Last Edit: Thu Apr 28, 2022 - 07:05:50 by RB »

Offline Rella

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Quote
Quote from: Rella on Yesterday at 11:57:23
author=GB link=topic=110903.msg1055200082#msg1055200082 date=1651074067]
You have a lot of good points to chew on and at the moment I am lacking time.

But certainly Jewish Law and God's law were two things.

But for some reason people... even unto today... do not understand that it has been that way through out history, even unto today with all the variations of all the religions through out the world.

The "Christian " ones are no exception.

You have the rules/laws set up by man in addition to those that are directed by God.  (Think Reformation for a start)

Then think of the Protestant variations within the Reformation.

WHY would anyone expect the Jews to have been different.


Wise words to be sure. There is no difference in my view. A reality not accepted by either religion.



Quote
Quote
Certainly when Moses brought those tablets man needed more then 10 commands to live the rest of their lives?

Absolutely, God also defines His Commandments, without which we would not know how to Love Him, nor would be understand His definition of  Loving each other.. Jesus said, "man was to live by "Every" Word which Proceeds from the mouth of God". I think there is evidence that Abel, Job, Noah, Abraham, Caleb, Joshua, Zacharias, Simeon, etc., understood this.

True. There is no disagreement in this


Quote
Quote
God asked ( commanded) Abraham to sacrifice his son, and he was willing... until God saw the obedience in him and saved the boy.

Yes, and before that he was instructed to leave his father and mother, his brothers, the religion he was born into, his friends, his life, and follow God to a place Abraham had never been.

I think Jesus promoted the same instruction.

Matt. 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

No disagreement here , either


Quote
Why would a people not believe that by following the rules/laws/commands that they would find favor?/ Redemption?/ Salvation.


That is a great question. But I believe Jesus answers it.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Two kinds of people here. They both naturally loves darkness (ego, pride, selfishness, greed, hatred, etc)

But one hides from the Light, (Word of God) so this darkness is preserved. And the other comes to the Light (Word of God) so this darkness can be exposed, and then destroyed.

Except... I was talking about 4000 years give or take before Jesus was ever born. Just trying to get to the root of the Jewish laws. Certainly... God gave 10 commandments/laws not during the Creation time period but it is said  from Adam to Moses was about 2500 years.

And in the 10 commandments there is nothing about marriage or procreation other then though shall not commit adultery... or possibly extend it to the covet one.

So when God said multiply and fill   in Genesis 1 - marrigae was not important.

In fact... and I am digressing a bit I dont think it was iportant at all even in Gen 2.. because if you read through VS 23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

The wording in vs 24 ... though put there by "Inspired"  Moses is unrelatable. 24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. What father and mother did Adam leave????????/ At that point in time when Eve was created they knew nothing about Fathers and Mothers.....

So does this mean inspired writings can be wrong? I wonder


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Do you think only the  commands that were worthy came out of the mouth of God? Or can you concede that the learned among them gave the flock rules to live by that were carried through the generations.

Wow, another great question. I was not expecting this Rella. What a wonderful surprise, you are actually having a conversation with me. Thank you so much.

I do believe that it was wrong for them to Judge God's instruction, some as worthy of their honor and respect, and others not worthy of their honor and respect. Paul seems to say this in the first part of his letter to the romans.

But when Paul was Saul he bit into all of it hook, line, and sinker.

Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

I would concede that these men, revered as Shepherds, led Israel astray with doctrines and traditions of men. God sent them Prophets to correct them, but they didn't harken. Then HE sent His Son, and they rejected and killed Him as well. But God always had a remnant who followed Him. These were called men of Faith. I think the stories written about both were written for you and I's admonition.

But we also have all of this going on today within most churches... ( maybe all)

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After all.. a marriage ceremony , that was sanctioned by God.... was not done by anything He directed. That all came about
because of the multiply and fil the earth directive of God.. and people chose how to observe that.

I have to run.

People do have their traditions. Weddings, Funerals all turned into a cash cow for certain businesses, by the very religious tradition surrounding them. But the joining of a man and his wife, was supposed to be between the couple and God, in my understanding.

Mark 10:7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; 8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. 9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

He also said "Give unto Caesar", so depending what part of the world we live in, there may be requirements by the local " Caesars".

Other than that, I don't believe a piece of paper, or a gathering, or a man made shrine of worship, with a preacher, is even necessary, accept in satisfaction of ancient tradition.

Then you approve of my neighbors granddaughter... after they had the baby... went upon a hill in town... with friends and exchanged their love and commitment for each other?  NO MARRIAGE.



I know you are busy, but I really am enjoying this exchange. Please, when you get time, continue if you want.[/size]

Offline Rella

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The Lord said "be fruitful and multiply", nothing else. Therefore, nothing can be placed into law that never existed in the first place. The people could create tradition, such as weddings and funerals, but that isn't the same as the law. Jesus told his disciple, "follow me and let the dead bury their own dead" when asked to attend his fathers' funeral.


I agree in part. Weddings are not necessary to be fruitful and multiply. They only serve to make the lawyers richer.

God created man and sent them out to um... vo-dee-o-dodo. Period.

Until we get to that pesky anti-fornication rule.....

But then why did the author of Genesis 2 put that in there....

24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Did he make it up? Was that his way of controlling women?

WHY?


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But then why did the author of Genesis 2 put that in there....

24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Did he make it up? Was that his way of controlling women?

WHY?[/size]

The Apostle Paul went back in time and made up that verse to subvert women, being the women hater he was.   rofl

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Quote from: RB on Tue Apr 26, 2022 - 07:27:26
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Quote from: Rella on Tue Apr 26, 2022 - 12:55:18
Who is following the teachings of the Jewish religion?

You are~there's ample proof from your own thread.

Right...

As soon as I complete my Bat Mitzvah ... and complete my Online Smicha..  I'll work on becoming Messianic.

Honestly RB,

You have no concept of what I am looking for because to you it means nothing.

Before Jesus was put in Mary's womb the Jews existed.

You will deny this but at one time... before Jesus was placed in Mary's womb... the WERE God's favorite.

NO ONE. Least of not me claims they did not f up. But then if you are honest you will understand that people after Jesus was placed in Mary's womb did also and they continue in a downward freefall today.

When God created Moses He gave him 10 rules to live by. They were given to a jew so why do you follow them today?

Is that not following a Jewish religion. IT MOST CERTAINLY IS.

Does you church have any rules that differ from my church? I can think of one. Baptism.

Does your church teach that Baptism saves? Others on GC say it does.

You will say you are right. Others will say they are. Can you go back in history of all churches and find out why they are different teachings when all follow the same bible?

Somewhere in the rligion that Moses followed someone was told they had to marry.

What was that based on.

Genesis 1:28 would suggest we just have to have fun and as long as we procreate we are fine.

Genesis 2:24  added something, BWO Moses when he added a statement that makes no sense the way it is written.

So when did man need to get married to have babies to avoid Deuteronomy 23:2
“No one born of a forbidden union may enter the assembly of the Lord. Even to the tenth generation, none of his descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord.

IF THERE WAS NEVER A COMMANDMENT OF GOD FOR MARRIAGE.... THEN WE CAN IGNOR IT RIGHT?

I am all for ignoring it BTW.

But if it is important I want to know when it became a law... and if it was a law it would apply to all Jews of the day.. the very same that it would apply to all your clergy now because you dont want all those little bastards running around now... do you

The rest of you reply is irrelevant to what I am looking for... and why I am




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The Apostle Paul went back in time and made up that verse to subvert women, being the women hater he was.   rofl

Must of changed the original Greek manuscript cause the interlinear has it also . But you are right about his misogynistic attitude.

Could well be that was the doing of his unmentioned wife. Maybe he was glad to be away from her cause she would not be controlled or maybe divorced for unfaithfulness or maybe still married but living apart and hence his comment about remain single, even as I.

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I agree in part. Weddings are not necessary to be fruitful and multiply. They only serve to make the lawyers richer.

God created man and sent them out to um... vo-dee-o-dodo. Period.

Until we get to that pesky anti-fornication rule.....

But then why did the author of Genesis 2 put that in there....

24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Did he make it up? Was that his way of controlling women?

WHY?
The author didn't put it there.  In Hebrew, it just says he will cleave to his WOMAN.

Blame the translator.

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The author didn't put it there.  In Hebrew, it just says he will cleave to his WOMAN.

Blame the translator.

his WOMAN?

He owned her?  Such mysogynists in the bible. 

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his WOMAN?

He owned her?  Such mysogynists in the bible.

See... I was right. ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead::

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Except... I was talking about 4000 years give or take before Jesus was ever born. Just trying to get to the root of the Jewish laws. Certainly... God gave 10 commandments/laws not during the Creation time period but it is said  from Adam to Moses was about 2500 years.

And in the 10 commandments there is nothing about marriage or procreation other then though shall not commit adultery... or possibly extend it to the covet one.

So when God said multiply and fill   in Genesis 1 - marrigae was not important.

In fact... and I am digressing a bit I dont think it was iportant at all even in Gen 2.. because if you read through VS 23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

The wording in vs 24 ... though put there by "Inspired"  Moses is unrelatable. 24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. What father and mother did Adam leave????????/ At that point in time when Eve was created they knew nothing about Fathers and Mothers.....

So does this mean inspired writings can be wrong? I wonder[/color]


I think they are interpreted wrong all the time.

These are great points and questions. For me, I understand that "marriage" is symbolic of man's relationship with God. Men are born into a world in which the serpent exists and has created its own religious philosophies. "Hath God not said"? As true believers we are to leave this world's teachers, (mothers and fathers so to speak) and join with God and become One with Him as His Son is One with him. (Bride and Bridegroom)

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

I am inclined to agree with you regarding the importance of the "institution" of marriage. Excluding perhaps the importance of keeping a Vow we may make. It seems keeping a vow we make is more important to god than a piece of paper saying your married.

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But when Paul was Saul he bit into all of it hook, line, and sinker.


I completely agree. And I think he said as much.

Gal. 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.


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But we also have all of this going on today within most churches... ( maybe all)

I absolutely agree with you here as well. Certainly an easier truth to accept from out side this world's religions, than inside them.


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Then you approve of my neighbors granddaughter... after they had the baby... went upon a hill in town... with friends and exchanged their love and commitment for each other?  NO MARRIAGE.

I do not believe God needs the help or assistance of a catholic preacher, Mormon preacher, Baptist Preacher, SDA preacher, or any other of this world's popular religious franchise owners or representatives, to join a man and a woman as one. Nor does HE require a permit, certificate, sermon, blood test, or even a ring, to join two together as one.

 I don't judge or discourage folks from taking advantage of "Cesar" by partaking of some of these traditions, and I don't believe it a sin to get "Married". But to me, a true believer's relationship with his wife, is between them and God.

My only daughter and her husband did get married by a justice of the peace, along a beautiful trout stream they both fished in as little kids. 5 friends and a judge to make it legal in Caesar's land. But I would have been just as thrilled, had they brought into my life 2 grandkids (now 9 and 7), without a marriage certificate.

My wife of 41 years and I were married in a courthouse by a judge, after living together for a year, mostly to please our parents and for tax advantages. But it wasn't any of those things which kept us together. It was God's influence in our lives. And HE knows we truly needed it. :>D

I wish the very best for your Granddaughter and her husband. And you have a great Grandchild, how wonderful.

Good for you Rella :)


Thanks so much for the conversation.

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If you do not know where he came from in his early beliefs and followings and what was then expected of them how are YOU going to prove it one way or the other? DONT YOU DARE SAY NEW TESTAMENT WRITINGS because the concept is so unimportant to the men of that time that it is never mentioned for anyone... other than the wedding at Cana which was more important than Jesus turned water into wine... for the imbibers, then what God joined together.
Rella, we ALL know the same thing about Paul from his own writings recorded for us in the NT~from the acts of the apostles, along with his epistles. 
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because the concept is so unimportant to the men of that time
Assuming you are speaking of marriage~it's sometimes hard to tell by your writings exactly what you are speaking concerning, not very easy to follow, you may want to work on that a little.

Again, you have been bewitched, by stepping outside of the scriptures and listening to voices who have an agenda to prove in order to push their fables as truth. Three of the greatest prophets (there could have been more, we just do not know) that ever lived were not marriage~John the Baptist, Jesus, and Paul. The burden of proof is upon the shoulders of those folks who believe otherwise. The proof must be clear from the word of God, otherwise, it is nothing more than a Jewish fable, and whoever believes contrary to the word of God are holding to one of the many Jewish fables in this world.
Quote from: Rella Reply #43 on: Wed Apr 27, 2022 - 07:34:28
History is the most important thing we have for our future existence.... and that included what Jesus followed and believed.
The scriptures are our history book for Christians, the only history that is without biased opinions of men, and not written by victors, or for them.
Quote from: Peter
2nd Peter 1:16-21~"For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
All of God's children said AMEN! Be it so oh Lord!
Quote from: The prophetess from Pittsburgh
Your eunuch example does not answer the question. Period.
It most certainly does~so much so, that it would be impossible for any person with a little fear of God in their hearts not to accept the truth that there have been men who made themselves spiritual eunuch for the kingdom of God's sake~and by them doing so, also proves that marriage is not something require by God in order to preach, teach, expound the word of God, especially so in light of the truth that the three greatest prophets were not marriage mentioned already above. I'm sure you wish Christ had never spoken those words in Matthew 19, for it proves that the doctrine you are fast becoming bewitched by is nothing more than a cunningly devised fable!
Quote from: Rella Reply #43 on: Wed Apr 27, 2022 - 07:34:28
But just like you have your immersion baptism beliefs... as does your church.  And I bet if someone not baptised became your pastor he would not be accepted..... I say, with all confidence , if the temples of the day expected their teachers/rabbis to be married and one came preaching who was not.... everyone in the congregation would know about it.

You say it would not matter? I say it would not matter that a non baptised beame your pastor too. That is church law ( man) on who they would accept...
First, we home church; also, I would never attend a place of worship, or even in a home church where a man speaking is not properly baptized. never. Baptism, is a baptism INTO the faith, religion, teachings, of Jesus Christ, and if a person refuses to be baptized, he has in essence rejected the very thing he professes to believe, and by so doing saints should not follow such people. If a person is able to ARISE and go shopping, then they are able to ARISE and be baptized into Jesus Christ. 

The Jews' religion may have adopted a doctrine forbidding men to preach if they were not married, but the scriptures do not teach such a doctrine.

Rella, bottom line we follow scriptures not traditions, and doctrines of men so help us God.

Offline RB

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You have no concept of what I am looking for because to you it means nothing.
I have a very clear concept of what you want, but you are digging where there's no support for you~and, you are trusting in cunning devised fables~that is causing you to believe a lie.
Quote from: Rella Reply #54 on: Yesterday at 09:14:51

You have no concept of what I am looking for because to you it means nothing.

Before Jesus was put in Mary's womb the Jews existed.

You will deny this but at one time... before Jesus was placed in Mary's womb... they WERE God's favorite.
Agree on both points. But, not all Jews, yet as a nation, they had certain privileges given to them by God~Romans 3:1,2; Romans 9:4,5, etc.
Quote from: Rella Reply #54 on: Yesterday at 09:14:51

When God created Moses He gave him 10 rules to live by. They were given to a jew so why do you follow them today?
Many of the laws given in the OT were ONLY for the Jews and were to be temporary until the time of reformation going from Judaism to Christ's religion.

The Law of God contained in Ten Commandments are a standard of righteousness, which are holy, just, and spiritual, no higher laws could even be given than the Ten Commandments which are a SUMMED of God's many commandments..... a standard for all of the righteous to love and labor to walk in, as a perfect standard to please God by. We do not seek to be justified by God's laws for by them we see the exceedingly sinful nature we live in, that causes us to seek to be justified by Christ's perfect obedience.
Quote from: Rella Reply #54 on: Yesterday at 09:14:51
Is that not following a Jewish religion. IT MOST CERTAINLY IS.
It is not!
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Mark 7:6-13~"He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
The Jews had laid aside God's word and added MANY THINGS to their worship of God, and in effect made their religion a religion of devils~and obviously marriage being one of the MANY false doctrines they put into their religion. I could spend a lot of time here, but you should have gotten the essence of their religion. More later on this important point.
Quote from: Rella Reply #54 on: Yesterday at 09:14:51
Somewhere in the religion that Moses followed someone was told they had to marry.

What was that based on.

Genesis 1:28 would suggest we just have to have fun and as long as we procreate we are fine.

Genesis 2:24  added something, BWO Moses when he added a statement that makes no sense the way it is written.
So, you are admitting the commandment was added? Well, it was not based on Genesis 1:28 by anyone having a true understanding, and IF they did attempt to use Genesis 1:28 men of God that follow knew the truth and as I said above three of the greatest prophets from heaven never were married, Men who made themselves eunuchs (spiritual speaking) were CONSUMED of spiritual things and their calling of being God's ambassadors to this word in God's stead. We all are in one sense, yet some men are much more committed to this calling than the ordinary laymen.
Quote from: Rella Reply #54 on: Yesterday at 09:14:51
IF THERE WAS NEVER A COMMANDMENT OF GOD FOR MARRIAGE.... THEN WE CAN IGNORE IT RIGHT?
No commandment~yet if a person cannot contain himself from burning, then they SHOULD get married. It is all about whether or not a person has THAT GIFT, only a few do, and Im not one of them. 
Quote from: Rella Reply #54 on: Yesterday at 09:14:51
But if it is important I want to know when it became a law... and if it was a law it would apply to all Jews of the day.. the very same that it would apply to all your clergy now because you dont want all those little bastards running around now... do you
It is not a law and it is only important if one burns, and when they begin to do so, it is TIME to get married. For it is better to marry than to burn, which again shows that it is better to see if you have the gift to remain unmarry~if, so, then use it for the Lord.  You would have so more to give God than a married person, for a certain amount of their time MUST be given to their spouses, or else you will be guilty of defrauding your spouse which would be a sin to do so.

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Again, you have been bewitched, by stepping outside of the scriptures and listening to voices who have an agenda to prove in order to push their fables as truth.

The Jews' religion may have adopted a doctrine forbidding men to preach if they were not married, but the scriptures do not teach such a doctrine.

Rella, bottom line we follow scriptures not traditions, and doctrines of men so help us God.


After this I am done RED.

You are incapable of understanding anyone's thinking outside of your narrow thoughts.

It is not a sin to want to know how Jesus worshipped from his age of 12 onward. It is also not being bewitched to want to.

You follow scriptures. Jesus did also... but those about him were not even written when he was following things in the temple.

You follow scriptures. So does your good fried 4WD and from what I see neither of you come to a consensus on very much.

BTW... does it surprise you to hear that I think he is more right then wrong?

You say " I have a very clear concept of what you want, but you are digging where there's no support for you~and, you are trusting in cunning devised fables~that is causing you to believe a lie."

A cunning devised fable that says that in order to be a rabbi or to teach in a temple a man has to be married?

That is cunningly devised?

WOW. What a sin they were enforcing. I guess better they should have all had been gay?

.

Offline RB

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You are incapable of understanding anyone's thinking outside of your narrow thoughts.
Unless you can prove from the holy scriptures that one had to be married in order to be a rabbi or to teach in a temple~then it is a cunning devised Jewish fable using Peter's words from 2nd Peter 1.

We truly do not know how many apostles were married, it seems not too many of them, other than Peter....BUT, we will never know and it's not important either way.

A wise man once said: "No one is hated more than he who speaks the truth." Am I become your enemies because I refuse to accept cunning fables devised by evil men?
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 4:16~"Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?"
Would you love me if I say things that you want to hear? I then would indeed be your enemy~and the worse kind of an enemy. 
« Last Edit: Fri Apr 29, 2022 - 12:55:04 by RB »

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One further comment... the importance would be toward the later....

I posted this copy and paste  in 3 threads in reply to comments made to me and as this addresses the subject of was he married, there is something new for you to consider if it be a law from God, or a man made law based on what God said.  ::tippinghat:: Not everyone reads the same threads so I want to make sure you do see something from Deuteronomy that I saw just this morning.


Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote from: Rella on Sun May 01, 2022 - 07:47:39
https://www.ancientpages.com/2015/09/01/human-body-has-gone-through-four-stages-of-evolution-new-study/
Hogwash~The only change our bodies have gone through from the creation of Adam and Eve is downward~and I might add with the many means of changing one body through operations performed by men mainly for women.

I would partly agree through the steroids injected/fed to animals to make them grow larger and faster, have stimulated or produced the same toward humans by us consuming steroids fed animals.
Quote
Quote from: The prophetess from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
The accusation:

Too bewitched for wanting to know about our Saviors life on earth.

And the fables He was following.

« Last Edit: Yesterday at 04:11:22 by RB »
You need to correct a point or two: Jesus Christ refused Jewish fables, he lived by every word of God, his Father; and, all who seek truth outside of the scriptures are following fables, especially so from Jewish writings/teachings/customs that are not inspired.....and this is no accusation but a biblical truth.

Red,

The second point of your reply here I will address and will correct my current signature.

While, it is accurately stated ... I MUST give all credit to the person from whom I obtained these thoughts. THAT WOULD BE YOU.

From the primary thread "For those of you who have studied or have indepth knowledge of Jewish law"

You stated:

The Jews' religion is a religion of a pack of wild dogs seeking to devour God's children who refuse to bow down to them just because they think they are special being the children of Abraham.The Jews' religion is a false religion based upon the doctrines and commandments of men, that turn men away from the truth~they make their boast in God, yet do not know him, for if they did, they would live solely by thus saith the Lord.




Jesus Christ refused Jewish fables, he lived by every word of God, his Father; and, all who seek truth outside of the scriptures are following fables, especially so from Jewish writings/teachings/customs that are not inspired.....and this is no accusation but a biblical truth.

I want you to outline which specific fables that Jesus refused and what scriptures he did so.

It is also true that he followed Jewish laws and customs. Period. He was, after all, first and foremost a Jew. Did he correct certain things? Yes. Just as he corrected everything that mankind was supposed to believe and do....

But YOU are the one who said they were fables.... The Jewish laws and customs that were in effect long before Jesus was conceived.

So Jesus did follow it all except where he made corrections you refer to and that about the married in the synagogues and temple teachers and Rabbis HE never said a word.


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Again, you have been bewitched, by stepping outside of the scriptures and listening to voices who have an agenda to prove in order to push their fables as truth.

The Jews' religion may have adopted a doctrine forbidding men to preach if they were not married, but the scriptures do not teach such a doctrine.[/b]

WHY do you fail to understand that your scriptures were written for such a time as for those who would follow Jesus.
I have said ad nauseum the bible is our handbook. Jesus came for us..... our SALVATION... NOT to educate you men into how you should be preaching in a temple.

But the fact remains that Jesus was born and lived many years following their customs. HE DID teach in the synagogues... and he did it on their terms.... And do you wonder why it would have been on their terms. The simplest understanding would be to make them aware of him and his teachings.


« Reply #63 on: Fri Apr 29, 2022 - 08:49:01 »
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Unless you can prove from the holy scriptures that one had to be married in order to be a rabbi or to teach in a temple~then it is a cunning devised Jewish fable using Peter's words from 2nd Peter 1.

Rella, bottom line we follow scriptures not traditions, and doctrines of men so help us God.

« Reply #42 on: Wed Apr 27, 2022 - 04:37:50 »
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Rella, why would any Christian have a desire to follow the teachings of the Jews' religion?


It was You called the religion one of fables.... Excuse me... you and Peter. Peter the one who Jesus referred to as the rock on whom he would build his church.

Funny that. That for a very long time their heads, called the Pope.. were married. Some with kids.

If you honestly believe that any religion.... that would set out guidelines for their clergy... and those guidelines.... such as marriage expectations is a fable.... well, I do feel sorry for you.

In light that
in OT times in Deuteronomy when the rules were being laid out

Deuteronomy 23:2 KJV

2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord.


AND

YOU talk of Jesus in the same sentence as a Eunuch?

Back in the times when God was laying out rules

Deuteronomy 23:1 KJV

23 He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord.


AND I submit that God expected it to be used for the purpose He designed it.

That is from GOD.... NO fable here.

You put 1 and 2 together and surly even you can see that if they had a rule that their clergy need to be married to avoid procreating a mess of bastards... that also would not be a fable.

AND Jesus followed their rules.


OKAY... I am done except for changing my signature again to quote you properly .

Then I shall decide if this should be posted in the other two threads for those that will not read this one.

OKAY.. decided.

I shall copy this to those other two threads , then the signature line adjustment ::tippinghat:: [/size]

Offline Texas Conservative

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Was Jesus married when He was 12?   ::headscratch::

Offline Alan

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Was Jesus married when He was 12?   ::headscratch::


A small overlooked point in all this mess.

Offline DaveW

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Was Jesus married when He was 12?   ::headscratch::
If HE was, it would have been more likely that the arrangements were made at age 7-9 with the betrothal about 11 or 12.  Then HE would have built a home for the family and consummated the marriage circa age 13 or 14.