Author Topic: Forgive to Be Forgiven  (Read 2275 times)

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Offline johntwayne

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Forgive to Be Forgiven
« on: Thu Mar 05, 2020 - 07:42:02 »
"And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone; so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your transgressions. ["But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions."]
(Mark 11:25-26)

The good news of the gospel is that we are saved from the wrath of God for our sins through forgiveness of those sins. If we are forgiven then we must forgive. So many stumble at this point and find it hard to forgive, but if we truly understand our own sinfulness and the terrible price that was paid so that we could be forgiven forgiveness will become easier for us.

The proud, the self-righteous find it difficult to forgive. I would never do that! Famous last words! Sin is common to man, and common among men. Given the right circumstances, the temptation of Satan, and a lack of self-control we could do it. Murder, adultery, fornication, lying, stealing, idolatry it’s all within our capacity. Look around. They happen and it’s a warning to us that we could do them. Forgive them? Yes! God forgives men of them, and so must we.

Prayer, humbly spoken and from the heart, is key to forgiveness. In the hour of prayer God’s perfection and our total imperfection become clear. Forgive us, we beg. If we truly see ourselves in the moment of prayer for the sinful creatures we are, forgiveness of others will come rapidly to us, for we are in the same boat as they. So, as you pray today, forgive--it is very God like.

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Forgive to Be Forgiven
« on: Thu Mar 05, 2020 - 07:42:02 »

Offline RB

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #1 on: Thu Mar 05, 2020 - 08:14:55 »
+1

Offline 4WD

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #2 on: Thu Mar 05, 2020 - 10:29:11 »
I have to admit that I find the subject of forgiveness of others a bit of a problem.  I know that some folks like to point to Jesus' words while on the cross saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing." Yet, the whole subject of forgiveness is problematic for me.  I know that if I believe in God and repent of the sins that I have committed God will forgive me.  He has promised that.  However, does He forgive the sins of those who do not repent and and do not ask for that forgiveness?  It sure seems to me that He does not.  If He did it seems to me that there would be no need for condemnation and hell.  You can't both forgive and condemn simultaneously for the same offense.

Similarly can we really forgive someone for their offense against us if they do not ask for it?  I am not sure.  Moreover, it does nothing for them that I can see.  Even more, can we forgive someone for their offense against someone else?  I don't think so.  If your neighbor kills your dog, can I forgive your neighbor for that offense?  That to me simply isn't rational.  Even if that neighbor expresses remorse for killing your dog and asks for forgiveness, can I forgive him whether you do so or not?  What is the purpose of that?  Perhaps God can since an offense against man is an offense against God also and perhaps He does.  Does He if that neighbor is not a believer?  I don't know.  And even if He does, so what?

If someone wrongs you and then repents of that wrong and asks you to forgive them, then definitely you must forgive them.  That is what God tells you to do.  On the other hand if someone wrongs you, does not repent of that wrong and does not ask for forgiveness I don't think you are necessarily under any obligation as a believer to do so.  And If you do, I am not sure what it accomplishes.

As I said the whole subject of forgiveness is much more complicated than is usually taken to be.

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #2 on: Thu Mar 05, 2020 - 10:29:11 »

Offline GB

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #3 on: Thu Mar 05, 2020 - 12:11:32 »
"And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone; so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your transgressions. ["But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions."]
(Mark 11:25-26)

The good news of the gospel is that we are saved from the wrath of God for our sins through forgiveness of those sins. If we are forgiven then we must forgive. So many stumble at this point and find it hard to forgive, but if we truly understand our own sinfulness and the terrible price that was paid so that we could be forgiven forgiveness will become easier for us.

The proud, the self-righteous find it difficult to forgive. I would never do that! Famous last words! Sin is common to man, and common among men. Given the right circumstances, the temptation of Satan, and a lack of self-control we could do it. Murder, adultery, fornication, lying, stealing, idolatry it’s all within our capacity. Look around. They happen and it’s a warning to us that we could do them. Forgive them? Yes! God forgives men of them, and so must we.

Prayer, humbly spoken and from the heart, is key to forgiveness. In the hour of prayer God’s perfection and our total imperfection become clear. Forgive us, we beg. If we truly see ourselves in the moment of prayer for the sinful creatures we are, forgiveness of others will come rapidly to us, for we are in the same boat as they. So, as you pray today, forgive--it is very God like.


I'm not sure there is any evidence of God forgiving the unrepentant. Jesus said that unless we repent, we shall all likewise die. And what is repentance? Is it "words" or actions? Can I honor God with my lips and say I'm sorry for a certain action, if I don't show my repentance by altering this behavior?

If a man breaks into my garage and steals from me and I catch him, if he says he is sorry and won't do it again, I would be inclined to forgive him. But if the next week he gets caught doing the very same thing, would I forgive him again? What if he steals a third time and says he is sorry? At what point will I realize that this man is simply providing lip service, and that he really is not sorry. Isn't repentance an on going process?

It seems Paul thought to.

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they (ALL) should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Good topic.






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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #3 on: Thu Mar 05, 2020 - 12:11:32 »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #4 on: Thu Mar 05, 2020 - 13:48:30 »
I have to admit that I find the subject of forgiveness of others a bit of a problem.  I know that some folks like to point to Jesus' words while on the cross saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing." Yet, the whole subject of forgiveness is problematic for me.  I know that if I believe in God and repent of the sins that I have committed God will forgive me.  He has promised that.  However, does He forgive the sins of those who do not repent and and do not ask for that forgiveness?  It sure seems to me that He does not.  If He did it seems to me that there would be no need for condemnation and hell.  You can't both forgive and condemn simultaneously for the same offense.

Similarly can we really forgive someone for their offense against us if they do not ask for it?  I am not sure.  Moreover, it does nothing for them that I can see.  Even more, can we forgive someone for their offense against someone else?  I don't think so.  If your neighbor kills your dog, can I forgive your neighbor for that offense?  That to me simply isn't rational.  Even if that neighbor expresses remorse for killing your dog and asks for forgiveness, can I forgive him whether you do so or not?  What is the purpose of that?  Perhaps God can since an offense against man is an offense against God also and perhaps He does.  Does He if that neighbor is not a believer?  I don't know.  And even if He does, so what?

If someone wrongs you and then repents of that wrong and asks you to forgive them, then definitely you must forgive them.  That is what God tells you to do.  On the other hand if someone wrongs you, does not repent of that wrong and does not ask for forgiveness I don't think you are necessarily under any obligation as a believer to do so.  And If you do, I am not sure what it accomplishes.

As I said the whole subject of forgiveness is much more complicated than is usually taken to be.

Forgiving does wonders for you. Look for meaning there.

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #4 on: Thu Mar 05, 2020 - 13:48:30 »



Offline 4WD

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #5 on: Thu Mar 05, 2020 - 14:32:03 »
Forgiving does wonders for you. Look for meaning there.
OK, with a bit of tongue and cheek, I forgive you, johntwayne, for whatever you may of done  --  how does that help either you or me?  What meaning should I look for there?

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #5 on: Thu Mar 05, 2020 - 14:32:03 »

Offline RB

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #6 on: Thu Mar 05, 2020 - 14:53:09 »
As I said the whole subject of forgiveness is much more complicated than is usually taken to be.
Brother it is much more complicated than johntwayne mentioned in his short post~I was simply agreeing with the spirit of being ready to forgive and even desiring to forgive others who have sinned against us in one way or another.

Forgiving folks does not mean that if someone sins against you, let us say by committing adultery with someone close to you, that I MUST forgive them AS IF that never happened. I can forgive where there is true repentance ~ Nevertheless, that does not mean that I can trust that person AGAIN in this area where he or she has shown a weakness in a particular area of their life.

I knew a man once (not very well, but knew him) that was arrested for molesting a seven-year-old child while he was a school teacher, and later based on his confession repented while in prison and asked forgiven, so forth and so on, and later came out and joined a church and lived his life remarriage to a woman which two daughters as a profess Christian.  My daughter found out about this by checking on child molesters living close to her.  She called me, and I, in turn, call the pastor of that church and confronted him about this situation. My daughter was going to this particular church. I ask him did he know about this man's past and he said that he did, yet chose to keep it from the church. I said you must tell them now or you may one day have a big lawsuit on your hands from someone if he did it again and you confess knowing his past sins yet kept it from others. Some sins should be kept private, some should not be kept private and every case will determine the wisest path to take.

I told the pastor, that I would have no problem forgiving this man, yet, I would never allow my granddaughters (my daughter had four daughters) to ever be at that man's house, never.

Forgiven is two-fold: First~we forgive all THAT ASK who worketh godly sorrow PER:
Quote
2nd Corinthians 7:10,11~"For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter."
Secondly~we refuse to take retaliation against those who have sinned against us as we tell them we forgive when they petition us to forgive them. Yet, that does not mean that there will be fellowship as usual between us.

More could be said, but we agree with you that it is much more complicated than just SAYING I FORGIVE. We are NOT UNDER OBLIGATION to forgive all men simply the fact that they sinned against us. If someone murders my wife, then according to the law of God they should die~life for life and it does not mean that I must forgive them if I expect God's forgiveness. The scriptures do not teach this and it makes me sick when I hear people say this after a man unmerciful kills one of their loved ones, friend, etc. etc. ~I'll stop.  RB
« Last Edit: Thu Mar 05, 2020 - 15:09:06 by RB »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #7 on: Thu Mar 05, 2020 - 15:39:04 »
OK, with a bit of tongue and cheek, I forgive you, johntwayne, for whatever you may of done  --  how does that help either you or me?  What meaning should I look for there?

As RD points out, forgiveness does not mean the thing didn't happen, or that there are no consequences from it. Please note the passage I cited above. When you stand praying, Jesus said, forgive if you have anything against another. This is a kind of forgiveness that prevents bitterness, looking down upon and hatred of another from forming in you. You forgive because God has forgiven you. That trains your soul to see yourself as being one with your fellow man who also sins. It allows you to love the sinner, because you too are a sinner. These are the kinds of meanings I was urging you to look for.
« Last Edit: Thu Mar 05, 2020 - 16:08:11 by johntwayne »

Offline Johnb

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #8 on: Fri Mar 06, 2020 - 09:39:09 »
JTW I agree with you.

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #8 on: Fri Mar 06, 2020 - 09:39:09 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #9 on: Fri Mar 06, 2020 - 23:32:43 »
johntwayne, 4WD, and all

Mark 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.


Since this is the scriptures that was referenced on the subject topic, I'll take the subject in the context of the passage.

What I see in the passage is that faith in God is not the only condition for answered prayer, and presents another, that is the necessity of forgiving those who wronged us. For not doing so is not righteousness.

It seems to be that when one approach God in prayer, he must not only do so in faith, but also in at least two more conditions that forms and complete the key to an answered prayer. One is he must be clean, that is, cleansed of whatever sin he have against God. This principle is all over scriptures, in the old testament priesthood especially. The priest should make atonement and cleansing before he could come to the presence of God and pray and talk to him. Two is righteousness. So the passage says, "when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any". For that is the right thing to do. And not doing that, makes one guilty of wrongdoing.

Forget nor ignore not the saying, "The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective."

Forgiving really, brings a lot of good things, means a lot of good things, and says a lot of good things, not only about God, about the Christian who forgives, but also to the forgiven, both to the Christian and to the unbeliever. In the final analysis, and which is the most important and significant of all about forgiving, is its ultimate end, that is, it brings glory to God!

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #10 on: Sat Mar 07, 2020 - 00:08:46 »

I'm not sure there is any evidence of God forgiving the unrepentant. Jesus said that unless we repent, we shall all likewise die. And what is repentance? Is it "words" or actions? Can I honor God with my lips and say I'm sorry for a certain action, if I don't show my repentance by altering this behavior?

If a man breaks into my garage and steals from me and I catch him, if he says he is sorry and won't do it again, I would be inclined to forgive him. But if the next week he gets caught doing the very same thing, would I forgive him again? What if he steals a third time and says he is sorry? At what point will I realize that this man is simply providing lip service, and that he really is not sorry. Isn't repentance an on going process?

It seems Paul thought to.

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they (ALL) should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Good topic.

God forgives sins committed unintentionally in ignorance. And since these are sins committed in ignorance, needless to say, all could not repent of it. Needless to say then, in this sense, God forgives even the unrepentant.

One good thing I learned from the life of Jesus about forgiveness, is that, forgiveness comes from a loving heart and so is unconditional. And that by it, such love will bring the Christian to genuine repentance and try to the best of his will power, not do the sin again. But most importantly, that by it, such love will bring the unbeliever to genuine repentance unto God and faith in Jesus Christ.
« Last Edit: Sat Mar 07, 2020 - 11:47:16 by Michael2012 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #11 on: Sat Mar 07, 2020 - 01:27:37 »
I have to admit that I find the subject of forgiveness of others a bit of a problem.  I know that some folks like to point to Jesus' words while on the cross saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing." Yet, the whole subject of forgiveness is problematic for me.  I know that if I believe in God and repent of the sins that I have committed God will forgive me.  He has promised that.  However, does He forgive the sins of those who do not repent and and do not ask for that forgiveness?  It sure seems to me that He does not.  If He did it seems to me that there would be no need for condemnation and hell.  You can't both forgive and condemn simultaneously for the same offense.

I am sure you know that there is intentional sin and unintentional sin. Nonetheless, intentional or not, both are sin.

You asked "However, does He forgive the sins of those who do not repent and and do not ask for that forgiveness?"

God forgives sins committed unintentionally in ignorance, needless to say, even of those committed by the unrepentant. And I believe He does forgive intentional sins too if He wills. Not only He is sovereign. But I believe that God's mercy does not rest upon the sinner.

Repentance from the sin by not doing it again to the best of one's will power, I believe is one's statement in and by itself asking God for forgiveness. I believe one need not really have to go ask God for forgiveness as in prayer to be forgiven by God, though he can do so as he wills and as he pleases.

This is what I believe, and is what I believe is the law written in my heart. Forgiveness is about mercy. Payment for sin is about justice. Mercy does not go against justice and is not set aside nor taken away by justice. Justice does not go against mercy and is not set aside nor taken away by mercy. In fact I see that in Jesus Christ. So, as to mercy, forgive. And as to justice, remember the scriptures, "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. (Romans 12:19)"

Quote from: 4WD
Similarly can we really forgive someone for their offense against us if they do not ask for it?  I am not sure.  Moreover, it does nothing for them that I can see.

Yes, we can forgive someone for their offense against us even if they do not ask for it. There is no scriptures that says you can't. I have done that many times over. Try it sometimes.

It may seem that forgiving them does nothing for them. But I believe that a good deed always brings forth fruit, and good fruit at that.

Quote from: 4WD
Even more, can we forgive someone for their offense against someone else?  I don't think so.  If your neighbor kills your dog, can I forgive your neighbor for that offense?  That to me simply isn't rational.  Even if that neighbor expresses remorse for killing your dog and asks for forgiveness, can I forgive him whether you do so or not?  What is the purpose of that?  Perhaps God can since an offense against man is an offense against God also and perhaps He does.  Does He if that neighbor is not a believer?  I don't know.  And even if He does, so what?
No, I believe we can't forgive someone for their offense against someone else.

Quote from: 4WD
If someone wrongs you and then repents of that wrong and asks you to forgive them, then definitely you must forgive them.  That is what God tells you to do.  On the other hand if someone wrongs you, does not repent of that wrong and does not ask for forgiveness I don't think you are necessarily under any obligation as a believer to do so.  And If you do, I am not sure what it accomplishes.

As I said the whole subject of forgiveness is much more complicated than is usually taken to be.

Of course, we want for them to repent. But whether they repent of the wrong they had done against any one of us, or not, I believe, Christians ought to be merciful as God is, in the same sense and consideration of what God said, "Be ye holy; for I am holy". What it accomplish I believe is obvious to you there. In addition, let me share what I posted to GB,

"One good thing I learned from the life of Jesus about forgiveness, is that, forgiveness comes from a loving heart and so is unconditional. And that by it, such love will bring the Christian to genuine repentance and try to the best of his will power, not do the sin again. But most importantly, that by it, such love will bring the unbeliever to genuine repentance unto God and faith in Jesus Christ."
« Last Edit: Sat Mar 07, 2020 - 11:36:05 by Michael2012 »

Offline soterion

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #12 on: Sat Mar 07, 2020 - 07:52:05 »
One good thing I learned from the life of Jesus about forgiveness, is that, forgiveness comes from a loving heart and so is unconditional. And that by it, such love will bring the Christian to genuine repentance and try to the best of his will power, not do the sin again. But most importantly, that by it, such love will bring the unbeliever to genuine repentance unto God and faith in Jesus Christ.

Forgiveness from God is conditional. But on the topic of the Christian being a forgiving person, we're talking about something else. God has the right to demand faith and repentance from one seeking His mercy and grace; I do not, as one who still commits sin. However, as RB wisely pointed out, we should exercise caution and protect ourselves accordingly.

In the same way, God has the right to seek vengeance against a sinner. I do not, as one who deserves such.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #13 on: Sat Mar 07, 2020 - 11:39:49 »
Quote from: Michael
One good thing I learned from the life of Jesus about forgiveness, is that, forgiveness comes from a loving heart and so is unconditional. And that by it, such love will bring the Christian to genuine repentance and try to the best of his will power, not do the sin again. But most importantly, that by it, such love will bring the unbeliever to genuine repentance unto God and faith in Jesus Christ.
Forgiveness from God is conditional. But on the topic of the Christian being a forgiving person, we're talking about something else. God has the right to demand faith and repentance from one seeking His mercy and grace; I do not, as one who still commits sin. However, as RB wisely pointed out, we should exercise caution and protect ourselves accordingly.

In the same way, God has the right to seek vengeance against a sinner. I do not, as one who deserves such.
I disagree. God's forgiveness is God's mercy. And God said "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy". That is clearly unconditional to me. God's forgiveness comes from God's love. Now what is God's love? Scriptures have it, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." That is love my friend, and clearly is unconditional to me.

That on the topic of the Christian being a forgiving person, we're talking about something else, I don't quite agree. If we want to know how to be forgiving, who are we to take as the perfect example and imitate? Is it not Jesus Christ?

As to your statements here, "God has the right to demand faith and repentance from one seeking His mercy and grace; I do not, as one who still commits sin. However, as RB wisely pointed out, we should exercise caution and protect ourselves accordingly.",  and "In the same way, God has the right to seek vengeance against a sinner. I do not, as one who deserves such." I don't quite get what you want to point out there. So, if you will kindly help me out on that.

But, let me just share  an excerpt in my Reply#11 where I said and I quote:

"This is what I believe, and is what I believe is the law written in my heart. Forgiveness is about mercy. Payment for sin is about justice. Mercy does not go against justice and is not set aside nor taken away by justice. Justice does not go against mercy and is not set aside nor taken away by mercy. In fact I see that in Jesus Christ. So, as to mercy, forgive. And as to justice, remember the scriptures, "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. (Romans 12:19)"
« Last Edit: Sat Mar 07, 2020 - 11:42:00 by Michael2012 »

Offline GB

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #14 on: Sat Mar 07, 2020 - 13:48:49 »
 author=Michael2012 link=topic=105571.msg1055157425#msg1055157425 date=1583602789]


Quote
I disagree. God's forgiveness is God's mercy. And God said "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy". That is clearly unconditional to me.

This same God also tells us flat out who HE will have Mercy on.

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Shall we not believe these Word's of this same God as well?

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #15 on: Sun Mar 08, 2020 - 05:29:00 »
I disagree. God's forgiveness is God's mercy. And God said "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy". That is clearly unconditional to me.
This same God also tells us flat out who HE will have Mercy on.

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Shall we not believe these Word's of this same God as well?

Yes, God does show mercy to them that love Him and keep His commandments.

But that is not the mercy I was talking about GB. That verse says God show mercy. That mercy isn't forgiveness GB. It's favour, goodness, kindness given to one because of the good done. And this is obvious in the verse, for such "checed" God shows to, is not to the disobedient, but to the obedient, and to those who love Him. The Hebrew word translated "mercy" there is "checed", meaning favour, goodness, kindness.

That's different from what I was talking about in my statement GB. What I was referring to as mercy given to one in forgiveness of the evil done. That's why my statement goes "God's forgiveness is God's mercy."
« Last Edit: Sun Mar 08, 2020 - 05:33:31 by Michael2012 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #16 on: Sun Mar 08, 2020 - 05:33:37 »
I disagree. God's forgiveness is God's mercy. And God said "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy". That is clearly unconditional to me.
That quote is clearly from Romans 9:15 concerning God's choosing Jacob rather than Esau to be the father of the Nation of Israel.  Nothing there says anything about choosing Jacob for salvation or Esau for eternal condemnation.  It is about God choosing Jacob to serve His purpose.  And in that God says that He is free to choose who He wants to do what He pleases independent of whether or not He saves them.  God choose many to serve His purpose without any obligation to save them. He demonstrated that very thing two verses later (v.17) in describing His choosing of Pharaoh.  Yours is faulty argument. And soterion is correct when he says
Forgiveness from God is conditional.
Your argument is the classic mistake of the Calvinist interpretation of that passage.

Offline GB

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #17 on: Sun Mar 08, 2020 - 07:25:16 »
This same God also tells us flat out who HE will have Mercy on.

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Shall we not believe these Word's of this same God as well?


Yes, God does show mercy to them that love Him and keep His commandments.

But that is not the mercy I was talking about GB. That verse says God show mercy. That mercy isn't forgiveness GB. It's favour, goodness, kindness given to one because of the good done. And this is obvious in the verse, for such "checed" God shows to, is not to the disobedient, but to the obedient, and to those who love Him. The Hebrew word translated "mercy" there is "checed", meaning favour, goodness, kindness.

That's different from what I was talking about in my statement GB. What I was referring to as mercy given to one in forgiveness of the evil done. That's why my statement goes "God's forgiveness is God's mercy."

Yes, God's  Forgiveness IS God's Mercy.

"I will show forgiveness on who I will show forgiveness"

 Ex. 20:Ex. 20:6 And shewing {forgiveness} unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.




Offline Michael2012

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #18 on: Sun Mar 08, 2020 - 08:25:55 »
Yes, God's  Forgiveness IS God's Mercy.

"I will show forgiveness on who I will show forgiveness"

 Ex. 20:Ex. 20:6 And shewing {forgiveness} unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

So you preach your own doctrine: God forgives those who love Him and keep His commandments.

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #19 on: Sun Mar 08, 2020 - 08:45:04 »
So you preach your own doctrine: God forgives those who love Him and keep His commandments.

You said "God's Mercy is God's Forgiveness". So then when God shows "Mercy" He is showing "Forgiveness".

We finally agree on something.

Does God show Mercy/Forgiveness to those who hate him a refuse to keep His Commandments? I don't find any evidence of this in the Bible.

So how is the belief "And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments." any different than "And shewing {forgiveness} unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments"? Especially given that you stated "That's why my statement goes "God's forgiveness is God's mercy."

Is this not your doctrine as well?








Offline Michael2012

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #20 on: Sun Mar 08, 2020 - 09:40:01 »
Quote from: Michael
I disagree. God's forgiveness is God's mercy. And God said "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy". That is clearly unconditional to me.
That quote is clearly from Romans 9:15 concerning God's choosing Jacob rather than Esau to be the father of the Nation of Israel.  Nothing there says anything about choosing Jacob for salvation or Esau for eternal condemnation.  It is about God choosing Jacob to serve His purpose.  And in that God says that He is free to choose who He wants to do what He pleases independent of whether or not He saves them.  God choose many to serve His purpose without any obligation to save them. He demonstrated that very thing two verses later (v.17) in describing His choosing of Pharaoh.  Yours is faulty argument. And soterion is correct when he says
Quote from: Soterion
Forgiveness from God is conditional.
Your argument is the classic mistake of the Calvinist interpretation of that passage.

You said "That quote is clearly from Romans 9:15 concerning God's choosing Jacob rather than Esau to be the father of the Nation of Israel. Nothing there says anything about choosing Jacob for salvation or Esau for eternal condemnation." Romans 9:15 is concerning not only the choosing, but more concerning, the children of the promise as being the children of God, and not the children of the flesh. So, this is no doubt about the children of God, the saved. Paul tells us there that the children of God were of God's choosing, pointing this out by way of showing God's choosing of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob. That all such choosing was not based on the works of these men, but that, such choosing is of God, who called them. Paul tells us that this is the sovereignty of God. That there is no unrighteousness with God on this matter of election of God's children. He explained this from verse 15  and at least up to verse 21.

Now concerning God's mercy, consider:

Micah 7:18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

Who is a God like Him, who pardons sin and pass by the transgression? Do you not see the singular favor of God in freely reconciling himself to sinners?

Now consider these things about the remnant.

Isaiah 1:9 Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

If God had not mercy of a remnant, all Israel would have been destroyed. So the remnant of Israel spoken of in scriptures, refers to them, whom God by the election of grace, choose to unconditionally and freely pardon their iniquity, and pass by their transgressions. 

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #21 on: Sun Mar 08, 2020 - 10:22:27 »
Quote from: Michael
So you preach your own doctrine: God forgives those who love Him and keep His commandments.
You said "God's Mercy is God's Forgiveness". So then when God shows "Mercy" He is showing "Forgiveness".

We finally agree on something.

You quoted me wrongly. What I said is "God's forgiveness is God's mercy." What I meant by that is that God's forgiveness is coming from His mercy. And this one, all of you who responded on this, left out the context, for I also said (in context), "God's forgiveness comes from God's love". Now then the complete thought that I was saying there in my post is that, God's forgiveness comes from His mercy and love, both which God had given unconditionally to man, the sinner.

As to whether we agree on that depends on you. For I don't know your view on that.

Quote from: GB
Does God show Mercy/Forgiveness to those who hate him a refuse to keep His Commandments? I don't find any evidence of this in the Bible.

God's forgiveness is for sinners obviously. It is the sinner who needs forgiveness. Consider the scriptures:

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses


Quote from: GB
So how is the belief "And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments." any different than "And shewing {forgiveness} unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments"? Especially given that you stated "That's why my statement goes "God's forgiveness is God's mercy."

Is this not your doctrine as well?

You apparently don't get it.

Read again:

But that is not the mercy I was talking about GB. That verse says God show mercy. That mercy isn't forgiveness GB. It's favour, goodness, kindness given to one because of the good done. And this is obvious in the verse, for such "checed  God shows to, is not to the disobedient, but to the obedient, and to those who love Him. The Hebrew word translated "mercy" there is "checed", meaning favour, goodness, kindness.

That's different from what I was talking about in my statement GB. What I was referring to as mercy given to one in forgiveness of the evil done. That's why my statement goes "God's forgiveness is God's mercy."

Offline 4WD

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #22 on: Sun Mar 08, 2020 - 14:29:46 »
Paul tells us there that the children of God were of God's choosing, pointing this out by way of showing God's choosing of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob.
But they were not chosen for salvation per se.  I do not believe that you can provide a single passage of Scripture that says so. Same with the apostles, including Paul.  They were chosen for purposeful service to Christ and to God.  The some were eventually saved and thus became chosen of God for salvation was all dependent upon the fact that they in turn believed and obeyed the gospel.  Not all did and Judas Iscariot demonstrated such by becoming the son of perdition.

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #23 on: Sun Mar 08, 2020 - 15:11:57 »
 +1 4WD


"It is about God choosing Jacob to serve His purpose."

Yes. Jacob wanted the birthright, Esau traded it for a pot of meat.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #24 on: Sun Mar 08, 2020 - 22:42:44 »
Quote from: Michael
Paul tells us there that the children of God were of God's choosing, pointing this out by way of showing God's choosing of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob.
But they were not chosen for salvation per se.  I do not believe that you can provide a single passage of Scripture that says so. Same with the apostles, including Paul.  They were chosen for purposeful service to Christ and to God.  The some were eventually saved and thus became chosen of God for salvation was all dependent upon the fact that they in turn believed and obeyed the gospel.  Not all did and Judas Iscariot demonstrated such by becoming the son of perdition.

Because you took that in the quotebox out of context, that I have to repeat what I said here.

As I have pointed out, the children of God were of God's choosing, pointing this out by way of showing God's choosing of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob. That all such choosing was not based on the works of these men, but that, such choosing is of God, who called them. Paul tells us that this is the sovereignty of God. That there is no unrighteousness with God on this matter of election of God's children. He explained this from verse 15  and at least up to verse 21.

To explain further, by the election of grace, from all the other peoples of the earth, God chose a people (nation) for Himself that shall be generated from Abraham, and from Isaac, and from Jacob (Israel). The children of Israel, they are the chosen people of God. That they are called the children of God, is clear indication that they were are saved.

Yes, you could say that they were chosen for purposeful service to Christ and to God. And you could take them as had eventually been saved because they believed and obeyed the gospel. That's all good. But here's what scriptures says of them.

Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.


Clearly, having been chosen for the giving of the law and service of God are but two among the other reasons of their election. They were to be a kingdom of priests. They were chosen to be a holy nation. Clear in the Romans 9 passage, other reasons are the adoption and glory, covenants, promises. If you don't consider those salvation matters, that's up to you. To me, that God 's election by grace of them, no doubt pertains to their salvation and more.

And this and become more clearer than ever when the light came, that is, Jesus Christ. By just looking into the new covenant that God makes with the house of Israel in Christ Jesus, one will clearly see that God's election by grace of Israel involves their salvation.

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


Of course, as Paul explains in Romans 9, the children of God (those saved by the election of grace), are not the children of the flesh. He said, they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. The children of God are these:

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


So, Paul had just told us there that Israel, the chosen children of God, are not the physical descendants of Jacob, but are the children of the promise.

Who are the children of the promise? 

Galatians 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

In other words, the children of the promise are the Christians, neither Jew nor Gentile. They are the Israel of God.
 

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #25 on: Sun Mar 08, 2020 - 22:45:25 »
+1 4WD


"It is about God choosing Jacob to serve His purpose."

Yes. Jacob wanted the birthright, Esau traded it for a pot of meat.


See reply #24.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/forgive-to-be-forgiven/msg1055157523/#msg1055157523

Offline 4WD

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #26 on: Mon Mar 09, 2020 - 06:45:33 »
See reply #24.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/forgive-to-be-forgiven/msg1055157523/#msg1055157523
Sorry Michael, but you simply refuse to acknowledge that God has CHOSEN some for service without any obligation to save them spiritually.  The fact that some chosen for service do end up believing in Him and thereby being saved is all quite beside the fact.  That was the situation with all His disciples [apostles] except for Judas Iscariot.

Your reply #24 is way off base.  You have argued the exact opposite of what Paul was saying.  Too many of the Israelites had concluded that because they were Israelites and Israelites were chosen of God that they were saved.  Paul said NO! Being an Israelite brought them many honors and privileges but salvation was not one of them.  That is the whole point of Romans 9.

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #27 on: Mon Mar 09, 2020 - 07:36:56 »
Sorry Michael, but you simply refuse to acknowledge that God has CHOSEN some for service without any obligation to save them spiritually.  The fact that some chosen for service do end up believing in Him and thereby being saved is all quite beside the fact.  That was the situation with all His disciples [apostles] except for Judas Iscariot.

Your reply #24 is way off base.  You have argued the exact opposite of what Paul was saying.  Too many of the Israelites had concluded that because they were Israelites and Israelites were chosen of God that they were saved.  Paul said NO! Being an Israelite brought them many honors and privileges but salvation was not one of them.  That is the whole point of Romans 9.

+1

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #28 on: Mon Mar 09, 2020 - 11:27:55 »
Sorry Michael, but you simply refuse to acknowledge that God has CHOSEN some for service without any obligation to save them spiritually.  The fact that some chosen for service do end up believing in Him and thereby being saved is all quite beside the fact.  That was the situation with all His disciples [apostles] except for Judas Iscariot.

Your reply #24 is way off base.  You have argued the exact opposite of what Paul was saying.  Too many of the Israelites had concluded that because they were Israelites and Israelites were chosen of God that they were saved.  Paul said NO! Being an Israelite brought them many honors and privileges but salvation was not one of them.  That is the whole point of Romans 9.

What I've written there don't have anything to do with any refusal you say there in acknowledging that God has CHOSEN some for service without any obligation to save them spiritually. For I do acknowledge that. But that does not mean God have NOT chosen a people to be His people, be His children, and Him be their God, for  eternity. Even the simple minded knows what that means. You here just outright refuse to acknowledge that, without any attempt to refute it with scriptures. You simply reject it and dismiss it by a mere refusal and disagreement.

You point to the apostles, except Judas, as had been chosen by God for service, and argue that they were saved not because they were chosen but they end up believing. Let's include Paul in there. Let's see if that is really how they were saved. If there is anything I love repeating, is the truth. So, here again.

They were chosen to be witnesses of Christ and of the truth. That means it is necessary that they must be believers, which means that they must be saved, so that they can be witnesses of Christ and of the truth. When God chooses one for service, could one chosen resist His will? According to Romans 9, No. So, what do you say of the necessity that they must be believers and be saved to be witnesses of Christ and of the truth? Yes, what that question implies refutes your view that they were saved not because they were chosen but they end up believing.   

Now, let's consider Israel. In my understanding of what you believe and teach, Israel (as a nation of people) was chosen by God for service and argue that it was not for salvation that they were chosen. That those who end up believing will be saved and not that because they were chosen for salvation. Let's see if that is really how it is.

First, who are Israel? They are the seed of Abraham, through Isaac, through Jacob, and through the children of Jacob, and so forth. Let's refer to them here as simply "Israelites". Regarding that, Paul says in Romans 9:6 that they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. That means not all Israelites are the Israel that God had chosen. Paul moved on to further identify Israel, saying that they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God, but the children of the promise. So, the chosen Israel of God, which Paul refers to as the children of God, are not the children of the flesh, or in other words, not necessarily the Israelites by human birth.

Who then are the chosen Israel of God, the children of God, whom according to Paul, in Romans 9, are the children of promise?
       
Paul gives us the answer in Gal. 4:28: the CHRISTIANS.

Galatians 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

The Christians are the children of promise, the children of God, the Israel of God, the chosen people of God.

Now, ponder on Galatians 4:28, on the fact that the Christians, are as Isaac was. For in there is the answer as to whether the Christians were elected unto salvation or not.
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 09, 2020 - 13:28:57 by Michael2012 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #29 on: Mon Mar 09, 2020 - 12:31:58 »
But that does not mean God have chosen a people to be His people, be His children, and Him be their God, for  eternity.

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #30 on: Mon Mar 09, 2020 - 13:28:03 »
Quote from: Michael
But that does not mean God have chosen a people to be His people, be His children, and Him be their God, for  eternity.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Sorry about that. it should read:

But that does not mean God have "NOT" chosen a people to be His people, be His children, and Him be their God, for  eternity.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #31 on: Mon Mar 09, 2020 - 13:41:54 »
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?


Sorry about that. it should read:

But that does not mean God have "NOT" chosen a people to be His people, be His children, and Him be their God, for  eternity.
You accuse me of denying that.
Quote from: Michael
You here just outright refuse to acknowledge that, without any attempt to refute it with scriptures. You simply reject it and dismiss it by a mere refusal and disagreement.
I have not and do not .  I do refute the false Calvinist doctrine that God chooses [elects] a person for salvation totally independent of the person.  That is easy to do with all the scriptures that declare that God saves those who believe in Him.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #32 on: Mon Mar 09, 2020 - 13:52:38 »
You accuse me of denying that.  I have not and do not .  I do refute the false Calvinist doctrine that God chooses [elects] a person for salvation totally independent of the person.  That is easy to do with all the scriptures that declare that God saves those who believe in Him.

I don't see you refuting what I posted in reply #28.

I'll take that to mean that you have no refutation on the points made.
 

Offline 4WD

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #33 on: Mon Mar 09, 2020 - 15:57:18 »
I don't see you refuting what I posted in reply #28.

I'll take that to mean that you have no refutation on the points made.
Quite frankly, I don't agree with much of anything you posted there.  But I have been through it so many times in the past with you and others that it is useless to go through it all again.  In a nutshell, who are the Israelites chosen for salvation?  Clearly they are the ones who believed in God.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who ..... who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father....(1Pe 1:1-2)

What foreknowledge?  God's foreknowledge that they would believe in Him and love Him:   And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (Rom 8:28-30)
 

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #34 on: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 03:52:52 »
Does God show Mercy/Forgiveness to those who hate him a refuse to keep His Commandments? I don't find any evidence of this in the Bible.
Quote
Romans 5:7-10~"For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."
Quote
Romans 8:7~Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."
Quote from: GB
I don't find any evidence of this in the Bible
You DO NOT want to see! Be honest.
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 03:55:26 by RB »

 

     
anything