Author Topic: Forgive to Be Forgiven  (Read 2204 times)

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Offline Michael2012

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #35 on: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 04:01:56 »
Quite frankly, I don't agree with much of anything you posted there.  But I have been through it so many times in the past with you and others that it is useless to go through it all again.  In a nutshell, who are the Israelites chosen for salvation?  Clearly they are the ones who believed in God.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who ..... who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father....(1Pe 1:1-2)

What foreknowledge?  God's foreknowledge that they would believe in Him and love Him:   And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (Rom 8:28-30)

I understand your disagreement. But disagreeing is different from refuting what the other is saying. Besides, if you want people to see that what you say is the truth, then by all means, show them by refuting the contrary view. That one have the light of truth, is reason enough to let the light shine to all and refute those who tries to put it off. And so, I do here.

You brought up the choosing of the apostles, with the exception of Judas, that they were saved, not because they were elected, but because they ended up believing. And I gave you a refutation of that. I was expecting for you to make a defense or counter refutation. The absence of a counter refutation only means that my refutation stands.

That would be the same case with Israel. In all my post in this thread regarding them, directly and indirectly, I had shown you a lot. One is, who they are and how God had chosen them and what is the purpose of God's election of them. That by the election of grace, God had chosen them for Himself to be His people. That, by itself speaks loud and clear that they, with definiteness and absolute certainty, that God will bring that about and make them actually His people. I had also shown that they were chosen by God, not based on the works of these men, but by the sovereign will and purpose of God. I had also shown that their election as coming to be a people, was not by their choice and doing, but was brought about purposely by God, by the election of grace, such was with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob. That they are the children of God was not by their choice and doing, but by God's making of them to be His children (That is the adoption spoken of by Paul of them in Romans 9). That they have God's law was not by their choice and doing, but God giving them His law. That they have God's wonderful and good promises, of blessings upon blessings, even a heavenly place and eternal life, is not by their choice and doing, nor is because of any good work they have done, nor because they are righteous, but God had freely made such promises to them, which later we learn is because of His great love for mankind. This unconditional love is seen and felt, and flows through the men whom He have freely and unconditionally chosen, such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the rest of the children of God ~ the children of promise, the Israel of God. And needless to say, the promise is sure to all of them, not because of their choice and doing, but because God had freely and unconditionally promised it to them, that He will surely do, and so will surely come to pass.

Having said that, let me once again refute what this you bring up here. You said:

"In a nutshell, who are the Israelites chosen for salvation?  Clearly they are the ones who believed in God."

Yes, certainly they are those who believe in God. But it is not enough today, to say they are those who believed in God, for we should not fall short of saying that they are those who believe in the name of Jesus Christ. This I have already shown you in reply #28, that they are the Christians. And that you have not even attempted to refute that. 

You appeal to this scriptures:

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who ..... who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father....(1Pe 1:1-2)

So, let's see what it says.

1 Pet. 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (KJV)

For better readability, I'll use NIV.

1 Pet. 1:2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

There is no doubt that the children of God are elect, that is, chosen.

Now, with regards to that election, you said "What foreknowledge?  God's foreknowledge that they would believe in Him and love Him". But that view is lacking.

The foreknowledge (Gr. prognosin) of God refers, of course, to what God knows beforehand. But the foreknowledge of God is more than mere foresight. It involves choice or determination as well. So do not forget, God's foreknowledge has an element of determinism in it. Whatever happens that which God knows beforehand, takes place because of His sovereign will. Whatever really happens that God sees ahead before it actually happens or transpires, is not a random product of some random events, or something that happens by chance, but is something that happens according to His determinate counsel and deliberate plan. (You may well have to study and look into Acts 2:23 concerning this sense of God's foreknowledge.) So, Peter in saying of the Christian in 1 Pet. 1:2, he could not have meant that they were elected by God because He came to know they would believe the gospel in the future reality, by His foreknowledge. Such even makes no real sense. For if and when these people would believe the gospel in the future reality, elected or not, what sense is there that God looks into the future to know that they would believe in the gospel, and then elects them? In other words, for what, when whether God elects them or not, they would be believing the gospel? 

Now, considering that God is omniscient, God's knowing all things beforehand would be all inclusive, that is, all people and everything else. This sense, in the subject verse 1 Pet.1:2, must be taken into consideration. For, the matter of the Christians being "elected by God", because of God's foreknowledge, would render the unbelievers as being "elected by God" as well by the same reason, which makes no much of a sense and significance. It brings no real meaning and significance then, and makes no difference, that the apostles referred to the Christians as the elect of God or taken as were elected by God. This argument also applies in the matter of the Christians' predestination. For then, even the unbeliever is predestined by God.

through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood

This election by God of the Christians, clearly is accomplished by the Holy Spirit when He separated the elect and set them aside to a special calling, that is, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with his blood. The sanctification here, that is, the setting aside of the elect unto obedience to Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with his blood, runs in conflict to your view of the foreknowledge of God. For such implies, that when it became known to God, by His foreknowledge, those who will believe, that God afterwards somewhat change plan as to sanctify them only then to be obedient to Jesus Christ. It is not as though God made His plan by having an initial plan and then look into the future, then reconsiders that which He came to know by His foreknowledge and revise His plan accordingly, and repeats the process, until He came up with a final plan, all things considered. I don't think God thinks and works that way, simply because He is God and is not man.

One other thing, interestingly, this sanctification by the Holy Spirit, teaches us, that the elect's obedience to Jesus Christ and their being sprinkled with Christ's blood, is predestined upon them. This may well be pointing to what Paul said in Romans 8:29.

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #35 on: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 04:01:56 »

Offline GB

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #36 on: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 05:26:13 »
You DO NOT want to see! Be honest.

Romans 5:7-10~"For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."

Red,

It is true that the Christ gave HIS Blood for all sinners, just as the  Passover Lamb was killed while Israel was still in Egypt.

But what you refuse to acknowledge is that even though the Lamb of God was slain while they were still in Egypt, (Sin) only those who left Egypt were spared. And even though "many" were spared by the Blood of the Lamb, and even though they were baptized through the Red Sea, and drank of that Rock which was Christ, "Many still Perished in the wilderness".

This means Red, that "many" were not saved, not forgiven, rather, they perished. You should not be ignorant of this important Biblical Truth.

1 Cor. 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

So then, did God "forgive" those who despised Him? Or those who loved Him and followed His instruction?

Num. 14:21 But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.

22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;

23 Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:

24 But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.

Or these:

Rom. 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: (Forgiveness)

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God. (Of the Bible)

So I said, based on all Scriptures: "Does God show Mercy/Forgiveness to those who hate him and refuse to keep His Commandments? I don't find any evidence of this in the Bible."

You still have provided no evidence that God Forgives those who hate Him and live in iniquity. He gives them a chance, through the Blood of Yeshua, to repent and turn to HIM.

Those men who do are forgiven. Those men who don't are not. At least according to the God of the Bible.

"I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
 

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #37 on: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 06:03:48 »
Romans 5:7-10~"For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."

Red,

It is true that the Christ gave HIS Blood for all sinners, just as the  Passover Lamb was killed while Israel was still in Egypt.

But what you refuse to acknowledge is that even though the Lamb of God was slain while they were still in Egypt, (Sin) only those who left Egypt were spared. And even though "many" were spared by the Blood of the Lamb, and even though they were baptized through the Red Sea, and drank of that Rock which was Christ, "Many still Perished in the wilderness".

This means Red, that "many" were not saved, not forgiven, rather, they perished. You should not be ignorant of this important Biblical Truth.

1 Cor. 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

So then, did God "forgive" those who despised Him? Or those who loved Him and followed His instruction?

Num. 14:21 But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.

22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;

23 Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:

24 But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.

Or these:

Rom. 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: (Forgiveness)

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God. (Of the Bible)

So I said, based on all Scriptures: "Does God show Mercy/Forgiveness to those who hate him and refuse to keep His Commandments? I don't find any evidence of this in the Bible."

You still have provided no evidence that God Forgives those who hate Him and live in iniquity. He gives them a chance, through the Blood of Yeshua, to repent and turn to HIM.

Those men who do are forgiven. Those men who don't are not. At least according to the God of the Bible.

"I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Evidently, you exhibit blindness, if not, of being in the shadow, that prevents you from seeing and acknowledging that forgiveness is for the sinner. It is to the sinner, that God shows and gives forgiveness.

Why are you still so into the shadows when the very substance had already come and is for all to see? Focus on the substance (the reality), that is, Jesus Christ, so as not to stay blind and entangled there in the shadow. 

Here's a test, if you had stepped out of the shadow and into the light.

Paul said concerning the Christians, "Much more then, being now justified by his blood,....".

The test question:

Do you believe that you have been justified by Christ's blood? If yes, will you still look for anything else to be justified?

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #37 on: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 06:03:48 »

Online johntwayne

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #38 on: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 06:31:05 »
Evidently, you exhibit blindness, if not, of being in the shadow, that prevents you from seeing and acknowledging that forgiveness is for the sinner. It is to the sinner, that God shows and gives forgiveness.

Why are you still so into the shadows when the very substance had already come and is for all to see? Focus on the substance (the reality), that is, Jesus Christ, so as not to stay blind and entangled there in the shadow. 

Here's a test, if you had stepped out of the shadow and into the light.

Paul said concerning the Christians, "Much more then, being now justified by his blood,....".

The test question:

Do you believe that you have been justified by Christ's blood? If yes, will you still look for anything else to be justified?

We are justified by His blood...
We are justified by Faith
We are justified by works
We are justified by grace

The fact that we are justified by His blood does not exclude other things we are justified by as well.

You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.
(James 2:24)
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
(Romans 3:28)
that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
(Titus 3:7)


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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #38 on: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 06:31:05 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #39 on: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 06:49:34 »
We are justified by His blood...
We are justified by Faith
We are justified by works
We are justified by grace

The fact that we are justified by His blood does not exclude other things we are justified by as well.

You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.
(James 2:24)
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
(Romans 3:28)
that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
(Titus 3:7)

You seem to suggest that Jesus Christ is lacking or that He insufficient and therefore the Christian needs something more to be justified.

But to me Jesus is more than sufficient to justify me, even the many. And there is no other way to be justified, for Jesus is the only way.

You teach that we are justified by others and not Jesus only. Among them you say are works, faith, and God's grace. You should look deep into those thoughts johntwayne, if they are not only pointing to one, that is, Jesus Christ.

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #39 on: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 06:49:34 »



Offline 4WD

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #40 on: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 07:38:25 »
Now, with regards to that election, you said "What foreknowledge?  God's foreknowledge that they would believe in Him and love Him". But that view is lacking.

The foreknowledge (Gr. prognosin) of God refers, of course, to what God knows beforehand. But the foreknowledge of God is more than mere foresight. It involves choice or determination as well. So do not forget, God's foreknowledge has an element of determinism in it. Whatever happens that which God knows beforehand, takes place because of His sovereign will.
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.  Foreknowledge has nothing whatsoever to do with God's sovereign will.  God knows the ending from the beginning  --  even those things God hates.  What you try to impose upon God is simply obscene.  Foreknowledge is not determinism in any sense of the word; there is no element of determinism in it.  That is an adulteration of God's traits and His character which is made necessary by the Calvinist doctrine of TULIP.

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #40 on: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 07:38:25 »

Offline GB

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #41 on: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 07:56:02 »
Evidently, you exhibit blindness, if not, of being in the shadow, that prevents you from seeing and acknowledging that forgiveness is for the sinner. It is to the sinner, that God shows and gives forgiveness.

Why are you still so into the shadows when the very substance had already come and is for all to see? Focus on the substance (the reality), that is, Jesus Christ, so as not to stay blind and entangled there in the shadow. 

Here's a test, if you had stepped out of the shadow and into the light.

Paul said concerning the Christians, "Much more then, being now justified by his blood,....".

The test question:

Do you believe that you have been justified by Christ's blood? If yes, will you still look for anything else to be justified?

I will let Paul answer this so you won't tell me it's just my worthless opinion.

1 Cor. 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Rom. 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

1 Cor. 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

So yes, I have been forgiven my sins which are past (ALL sin is past sin) by His Blood. My slate is clean. It "Just as if" I had not sinned at all. "Justified" by HIS Blood.

Now what? "Shall I continue in sin, (Transgress God's Commandments) that grace may abound?" God forbid. (That means no Michael)

Rom. 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

This is why I post HIS Words that I follow. Not because it is "my works" as you and Red falsely preach. But because I did it my way once, I followed your religion once. And the result was death. Now that I have been "justified" by HIS Blood, I am free from the law "Wages of sin is death", therefore free to "Yield myself" to HIM and HIS Word, as opposed to the religions of the land which promote traditions which transgress God's Commandments. (No Sabbaths, no clean/unclean, idolatry, man made "Feasts unto the Lord", etc., etc.

I now "Keep His Feast" and "strive to enter" the Generation of the Righteous through HIS Righteous works, not mine or yours or Reds.

This is what Paul teaches when you don't cherry pick his words.








Offline Michael2012

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #42 on: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 08:35:01 »
Quote from: Michael
Now, with regards to that election, you said "What foreknowledge?  God's foreknowledge that they would believe in Him and love Him". But that view is lacking.

The foreknowledge (Gr. prognosin) of God refers, of course, to what God knows beforehand. But the foreknowledge of God is more than mere foresight. It involves choice or determination as well. So do not forget, God's foreknowledge has an element of determinism in it. Whatever happens that which God knows beforehand, takes place because of His sovereign will.
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.  Foreknowledge has nothing whatsoever to do with God's sovereign will.  God knows the ending from the beginning  --  even those things God hates.  What you try to impose upon God is simply obscene.  Foreknowledge is not determinism in any sense of the word; there is no element of determinism in it.  That is an adulteration of God's traits and His character which is made necessary by the Calvinist doctrine of TULIP.

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. That goes apparently to you.

In the beginning, when there was not creation, God determined a plan of creation. Even before creation, God had seen and knew His creation beforehand. That is foreknowledge. So what He saw by His foreknowledge is nothing but what He had determined in plan to happen by His sovereign will. That's why I said that the foreknowledge of God is more than mere foresight, but involves choice or determination as well. 

Nobody is saying th foreknowledge is determinism 4WD.

And forget about the TULIP or what have you.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #43 on: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 08:46:42 »
Quote from: Michael
Evidently, you exhibit blindness, if not, of being in the shadow, that prevents you from seeing and acknowledging that forgiveness is for the sinner. It is to the sinner, that God shows and gives forgiveness.

Why are you still so into the shadows when the very substance had already come and is for all to see? Focus on the substance (the reality), that is, Jesus Christ, so as not to stay blind and entangled there in the shadow. 

Here's a test, if you had stepped out of the shadow and into the light.

Paul said concerning the Christians, "Much more then, being now justified by his blood,....".

The test question:

Do you believe that you have been justified by Christ's blood? If yes, will you still look for anything else to be justified?
I will let Paul answer this so you won't tell me it's just my worthless opinion.

1 Cor. 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Rom. 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

1 Cor. 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

So yes, I have been forgiven my sins which are past (ALL sin is past sin) by His Blood. My slate is clean. It "Just as if" I had not sinned at all. "Justified" by HIS Blood.

Now what? "Shall I continue in sin, (Transgress God's Commandments) that grace may abound?" God forbid. (That means no Michael)

Rom. 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

This is why I post HIS Words that I follow. Not because it is "my works" as you and Red falsely preach. But because I did it my way once, I followed your religion once. And the result was death. Now that I have been "justified" by HIS Blood, I am free from the law "Wages of sin is death", therefore free to "Yield myself" to HIM and HIS Word, as opposed to the religions of the land which promote traditions which transgress God's Commandments. (No Sabbaths, no clean/unclean, idolatry, man made "Feasts unto the Lord", etc., etc.

I now "Keep His Feast" and "strive to enter" the Generation of the Righteous through HIS Righteous works, not mine or yours or Reds.

This is what Paul teaches when you don't cherry pick his words.

It's not a test question for Paul, GB. So don't pass it on to Paul. Be a man and stand your ground. Take responsibility for your words. Paul is not here to defend himself for or against what you put into his mouth.

This is what I gather from your reply:

That you were "Justified" by HIS Blood. That answers the question, "Do you believe that you have been justified by Christ's blood?". Thank you for that.

Now, the other question is "If yes, will you still look for anything else to be justified?"

I can't find anything you said there in your post that seems to answer this. Perhaps you can give a more direct and plainer answer. The question isn't that complicated and difficult that it demands a complicated and long answer.



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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #43 on: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 08:46:42 »

Offline GB

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #44 on: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 09:20:19 »
 author=Michael2012 link=topic=105571.msg1055157607#msg1055157607 date=1583848002]

Quote
It's not a test question for Paul, GB. So don't pass it on to Paul. Be a man and stand your ground. Take responsibility for your words. Paul is not here to defend himself for or against what you put into his mouth.

I'll let you be a man by your definition, stand on your own religion, your own doctrines. As for me, I am a purchased entity, no longer do I desire to guide my own footsteps as that will ultimately lead to my destruction. I will let my Savior, who is much Wiser that I, direct my steps through HIS Words. Word's that I posted in response to your inquiry. If you can't accept the Words I posted, which guide my footsteps, then this is your problem, not mine.


Offline Michael2012

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #45 on: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 09:39:28 »
I'll let you be a man by your definition, stand on your own religion, your own doctrines. As for me, I am a purchased entity, no longer do I desire to guide my own footsteps as that will ultimately lead to my destruction. I will let my Savior, who is much Wiser that I, direct my steps through HIS Words. Word's that I posted in response to your inquiry. If you can't accept the Words I posted, which guide my footsteps, then this is your problem, not mine.

You are free to do as you please then.

But, if you want an honest exchange and dialogue, please respond properly, by not evading the questions, and be ready to give clarification when requested.

So, I bring this to you again:

That you were "Justified" by HIS Blood. That answers the question, "Do you believe that you have been justified by Christ's blood?".

Now, the other question is "If yes, will you still look for anything else to be justified?"

I can't find anything you said there in your post that seems to answer this. Perhaps you can give a more direct and plainer answer. The question isn't that complicated and difficult that it demands a complicated and long answer.

Your answer Sir? Don't hesitate and not be afraid. Unless you bring harm to yourself with your answer.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #46 on: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 10:17:35 »
That's why I said that the foreknowledge of God is more than mere foresight, but involves choice or determination as well. 

Nobody is saying th foreknowledge is determinism 4WD.
Michael, you are saying that.  God's choice and determination and God's foreknowledge are completely different and separate traits. Foreknowledge is not foresight. Foreknowledge has nothing whatsoever to do with choice or determination.  All of us have foresight to one degree or another.  None of us has foreknowledge. You may think you know what is going to happen; you do not KNOW what is going to happen even, if you know what you are going to do. You cannot see the future.  Only God sees the future.

And how can I forget about TULIP or whatever.  You espouse it so much of the time in your posts whether or not you acknowledge it as TULIP. 

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #47 on: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 10:52:54 »
Quote from: Michael
That's why I said that the foreknowledge of God is more than mere foresight, but involves choice or determination as well.

Nobody is saying th foreknowledge is determinism 4WD.
Michael, you are saying that.  God's choice and determination and God's foreknowledge are completely different and separate traits. Foreknowledge is not foresight. Foreknowledge has nothing whatsoever to do with choice or determination.  All of us have foresight to one degree or another.  None of us has foreknowledge. You may think you know what is going to happen; you do not KNOW what is going to happen even, if you know what you are going to do. You cannot see the future.  Only God sees the future.

And how can I forget about TULIP or whatever.  You espouse it so much of the time in your posts whether or not you acknowledge it as TULIP.

Noun
foreknowledge (usually uncountable, plural foreknowledges)

Knowing beforehand, prescience, foresight, precognition

I have explained myself already why I say that the foreknowledge of God involves determination as well. I will not repeat myself here. Just go back to my previous related post if you need to hear it again.

If ever my view happens to be the same with the TULIP of Mr. Calvin, it is my view that I'm writing about and not his. So, it would be unfair to bring him on the discussion when I make no reference to him nor his TULIP.

Perhaps we're done here and live with the disagreement.

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #48 on: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 12:36:44 »



Noun
foreknowledge (usually uncountable, plural foreknowledges)

Knowing beforehand, prescience, foresight, precognition

I have explained myself already why I say that the foreknowledge of God involves determination as well. I will not repeat myself here. Just go back to my previous related post if you need to hear it again.
Why bother to give the dictionary definition of the word if you are not going to accept i?.  Knowing beforehand, prescience, foresight, precognition  --  none of those say anything about determination.

Quote from: Michael[[size=10pt
Perhaps we're done here and live with the disagreement.[/size]
I don't need to live with the disagreement.  I will simply state that you are wrong.  The definition you posted demonstrates that.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #49 on: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 13:48:28 »
Why bother to give the dictionary definition of the word if you are not going to accept i?.  Knowing beforehand, prescience, foresight, precognition  --  none of those say anything about determination.
I don't need to live with the disagreement.  I will simply state that you are wrong.  The definition you posted demonstrates that.

And if you won't live with the disagreement, and will go on to state that I am wrong, then I think I will have to go on refuting you then.

I gave the dictionary meaning to refute what you said, that "Foreknowledge is not foresight." But of course you will not accept that you have been refuted. I don't really care. What I care about is that what is wrong be shown to be wrong.

What I said is "the foreknowledge of God involves determination as well."

The foreknowledge of God (divine foreknowledge) is different from that of man's.

You contend that man have no foreknowledge. Let's see about that. You already pointed out that man have some foresight. That is foreknowledge. The President had determined what he will say in his speech, so that he knows beforehand what He will be saying in His speech. That is foreknowledge. Do you see determinism involved there?

In the beginning, when there was not creation, God determined His creation plan. Even before creation, God had seen and knew His creation beforehand. That is foreknowledge. So what He saw and knew by His foreknowledge is nothing but what He had determined in plan to happen. Don't you see determinism involved there?

« Last Edit: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 13:50:39 by Michael2012 »

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #50 on: Wed Mar 11, 2020 - 01:34:50 »
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.  Foreknowledge has nothing whatsoever to do with God's sovereign will.  God knows the ending from the beginning  --  even those things God hates.  What you try to impose upon God is simply obscene.  Foreknowledge is not determinism in any sense of the word; there is no element of determinism in it.  That is an adulteration of God's traits and His character which is made necessary by the Calvinist doctrine of TULIP.

+1 For this.

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #51 on: Wed Mar 11, 2020 - 06:01:36 »
You contend that man have no foreknowledge. Let's see about that. You already pointed out that man have some foresight. That is foreknowledge. The President had determined what he will say in his speech, so that he knows beforehand what He will be saying in His speech. That is foreknowledge.
No, that is not foreknowledge.  Let's get real here.  He doesn't even KNOW if he will be alive to give the speech.  He obviously thinks he will be but he certainly doesn't know it.

Quote from: Michael
In the beginning, when there was not creation, God determined His creation plan. Even before creation, God had seen and knew His creation beforehand. That is foreknowledge. So what He saw and knew by His foreknowledge is nothing but what He had determined in plan to happen. Don't you see determinism involved there?
God knew beforehand that Adam and Eve would disobey.  And you believe that God determined that they would disobey?  I think you really understand very little about God.  Or perhaps, just as you apparently do not really know and understand the meaning of foreknowledge, you do not really know and understand the meaning of determine and determinism.

Offline soterion

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #52 on: Wed Mar 11, 2020 - 07:22:40 »
You contend that man have no foreknowledge. Let's see about that. You already pointed out that man have some foresight. That is foreknowledge. The President had determined what he will say in his speech, so that he knows beforehand what He will be saying in His speech. That is foreknowledge. Do you see determinism involved there?

In the beginning, when there was not creation, God determined His creation plan. Even before creation, God had seen and knew His creation beforehand. That is foreknowledge. So what He saw and knew by His foreknowledge is nothing but what He had determined in plan to happen. Don't you see determinism involved there?

Michael, knowing ahead of time an event is absolutely going to occur, and planning an event to occur are two different things.

I understand foreknowledge to be the absolute knowledge of some future event(s), a knowledge that only God can have. Man cannot have such knowledge. I can and do expect certain events to take place today, including people I believe I will see today and some things they will do, but I may get sidetracked by a phone call or a car accident, or some or all of those people may not enter the picture today. I do not have the foreknowledge of God.

None of the above has anything to do with my preplanning and the carrying out of any such plans today. I believe certain events that I intend to do will take place. I intend to take a shower and eat breakfast. I intend to drive to work this morning and see certain people and do certain things. More than likely, all that I plan will take place. This is not foreknowledge. Such expectations are driven by long repetition and the desire to see it all came to pass, as well as believing it is all God's will and that He will bless me thusly. None of this has anything to do with foreknowledge on my part as my plans may be thwarted. I could slip in the shower and hit my noggin. I could still get that phone call. My employer may divert me to different responsibilities today. I can plan all I want, but my plans are not absolute.

God has absolute foreknowledge, and He may plan/intend ahead of time that certain events to take place, but the knowledge and the planning are not the same things. God intended Adam and Eve to obey in the garden, but in His foreknowledge He knew they would not. God intends that I will be obedient, but more than likely I will not in all things. Our freewill is an element that you are not including in your evaluation of God here.

Now God can plan according to what He knows will take place, such as Adam and Eve's disobedience, but that knowledge and the necessary planning due to His knowledge are still not the same things. I can make my plans today, but get a call and have to change my plans. My new knowledge of what it sounds like will take place in my immediate future will force me to make a new plan. However, the knowledge and the new plan are still two different things.

I hope that's clear as mud.  ::smile::

Online Jaime

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #53 on: Wed Mar 11, 2020 - 07:57:09 »
I am of the opinion that God being OUTSIDE of time, sees and experiences the past, present and future at the same time. He sees the end from the beginning, How? Because he literally is outside the linear concept of time and knows the future because he has experienced or seen the future. He knows the instant of our death because he has seen or experienced it. It is NOT just accurate prognostication, it is restating what he has seen or experienced as a God outside of the constraints of time.
« Last Edit: Wed Mar 11, 2020 - 11:05:49 by Jaime »

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #54 on: Wed Mar 11, 2020 - 08:54:14 »
And if you won't live with the disagreement, and will go on to state that I am wrong, then I think I will have to go on refuting you then.

I gave the dictionary meaning to refute what you said, that "Foreknowledge is not foresight." But of course you will not accept that you have been refuted. I don't really care. What I care about is that what is wrong be shown to be wrong.

What I said is "the foreknowledge of God involves determination as well."

The foreknowledge of God (divine foreknowledge) is different from that of man's.

You contend that man have no foreknowledge. Let's see about that. You already pointed out that man have some foresight. That is foreknowledge. The President had determined what he will say in his speech, so that he knows beforehand what He will be saying in His speech. That is foreknowledge. Do you see determinism involved there?

In the beginning, when there was not creation, God determined His creation plan. Even before creation, God had seen and knew His creation beforehand. That is foreknowledge. So what He saw and knew by His foreknowledge is nothing but what He had determined in plan to happen. Don't you see determinism involved there?

It seems there is a fundamental difference in belief regarding forgiveness here. It seems that you and Red, and "many" others believe God chooses who He will forgive based on nothing a man does. That a man has no choice, no input, no part in his own salvation. To the point that Red even believes Nicodemus was "Born again" and had no conscious knowledge of the change when he went to see Jesus my night so no one would see him.

This is a popular belief, and an excellent marketing strategy for the religion which promotes this doctrine. If you are part of this religion, then you have been chosen by God to be saved from the foundation of the world based on nothing you "did", and nothing you do can change that.

But the scriptures continually, from Gen. to Rev., speak of men "choosing" things. The entire Bible is instruction. In fact, even the word Bible could be said to be the initials of "Basic Instruction Before Leaving Earth.

According to the scriptures, men are to "seek God", "turn to God", "Repent towards God", "Follow God", "walk as He walked", and over and over and over and over. From Gen. "If you do well, shall you not be accepted", to Paul's words "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness", to Rev. "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

But somehow religious men, who come in Christ's name, have convinced the masses that this labor is useless, because God either makes you do them, or He keeps you from doing them.

Scripturally speaking, this religious doctrine is not true.

Forgiveness from God is something we seek after Michael. On HIS Terms, not mans.




 

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #55 on: Wed Mar 11, 2020 - 09:23:48 »
Quote from: Michael
You contend that man have no foreknowledge. Let's see about that. You already pointed out that man have some foresight. That is foreknowledge. The President had determined what he will say in his speech, so that he knows beforehand what He will be saying in His speech. That is foreknowledge.
No, that is not foreknowledge.  Let's get real here.  He doesn't even KNOW if he will be alive to give the speech.  He obviously thinks he will be but he certainly doesn't know it.
If you say it's not foreknowledge, do you just expect me to believe it is because you say so? I have shown you the dictionary meaning of the word "foreknowledge" and it means knowing beforehand, prescience, foresight, precognition. So, that is what the word foreknowledge mean. Unless you can show me perhaps a dictionary that defines it differently.

I said in my post that the foreknowledge of God (divine foreknowledge) is different from that of man's.
 
Man have that ability, as I have shown you in the example I gave. He have foresight, though not in the same degree and capacity as that of God's. He have the ability to know beforehand, though not in the same degree and capacity as that of God's. Despite the difference, that is foreknowledge nonetheless.

Quote from: 4WD
Quote from: Michael
In the beginning, when there was not creation, God determined His creation plan. Even before creation, God had seen and knew His creation beforehand. That is foreknowledge. So what He saw and knew by His foreknowledge is nothing but what He had determined in plan to happen. Don't you see determinism involved there?

God knew beforehand that Adam and Eve would disobey.  And you believe that God determined that they would disobey?  I think you really understand very little about God.  Or perhaps, just as you apparently do not really know and understand the meaning of foreknowledge, you do not really know and understand the meaning of determine and determinism.
God knew beforehand that He will create Adam. He knew beforehand not only because He has the ability to see and know the future, but also because it is what He had determined to do. Did God know beforehand that Adam would need a helper and He will create Eve? Inevitably, that's a yes. Why did God create Eve, was it because He foreknew that Adam would need a helper or was it His determined plan?

Surely God knew beforehand that Adam and Eve would disobey. I don't believe that God determined that they would disobey, but that, God had chosen and determined to let them choose to obey or disobey. 

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #56 on: Wed Mar 11, 2020 - 10:09:37 »
Quote from: Michael
You contend that man have no foreknowledge. Let's see about that. You already pointed out that man have some foresight. That is foreknowledge. The President had determined what he will say in his speech, so that he knows beforehand what He will be saying in His speech. That is foreknowledge. Do you see determinism involved there?

In the beginning, when there was not creation, God determined His creation plan. Even before creation, God had seen and knew His creation beforehand. That is foreknowledge. So what He saw and knew by His foreknowledge is nothing but what He had determined in plan to happen. Don't you see determinism involved there?
Michael, knowing ahead of time an event is absolutely going to occur, and planning an event to occur are two different things.

I understand foreknowledge to be the absolute knowledge of some future event(s), a knowledge that only God can have. Man cannot have such knowledge. I can and do expect certain events to take place today, including people I believe I will see today and some things they will do, but I may get sidetracked by a phone call or a car accident, or some or all of those people may not enter the picture today. I do not have the foreknowledge of God.

None of the above has anything to do with my preplanning and the carrying out of any such plans today. I believe certain events that I intend to do will take place. I intend to take a shower and eat breakfast. I intend to drive to work this morning and see certain people and do certain things. More than likely, all that I plan will take place. This is not foreknowledge. Such expectations are driven by long repetition and the desire to see it all came to pass, as well as believing it is all God's will and that He will bless me thusly. None of this has anything to do with foreknowledge on my part as my plans may be thwarted. I could slip in the shower and hit my noggin. I could still get that phone call. My employer may divert me to different responsibilities today. I can plan all I want, but my plans are not absolute.

The foreknowledge you say there is that of God's, who alone have absolute knowledge of not only some but all future events. But man have foreknowledge also, though not in the same degree and capacity as that of God's. Despite the difference, that is foreknowledge nonetheless.

Quote from: Soterion
God has absolute foreknowledge, and He may plan/intend ahead of time that certain events to take place, but the knowledge and the planning are not the same things. God intended Adam and Eve to obey in the garden, but in His foreknowledge He knew they would not. God intends that I will be obedient, but more than likely I will not in all things. Our freewill is an element that you are not including in your evaluation of God here.

Consider when there was no creation yet. At that point in eternity, in God's absolute foreknowledge, what does He see in His foreknowledge? Can you tell me at least what you think?

God knew beforehand that Adam and Eve would disobey. I don't believe that God determined that they would disobey, but that, God had chosen and determined to let them choose to obey or disobey.

Now, our case is different from that of Adam and Eve in the garden. Sin and death was not yet in the picture in their case. In our case, there is already sin and death.
 
Quote from: Soterion
Now God can plan according to what He knows will take place, such as Adam and Eve's disobedience, but that knowledge and the necessary planning due to His knowledge are still not the same things. I can make my plans today, but get a call and have to change my plans. My new knowledge of what it sounds like will take place in my immediate future will force me to make a new plan. However, the knowledge and the new plan are still two different things.

I hope that's clear as mud.  ::smile::

You said "God can plan according to what He knows will take place". How does that work? He is God and everything that takes place happens not without His knowledge and permission/determination, for He upholds all things. In addition, how God plans surely isn't anything close to how humans plan. Besides, the things which you refer to that will take place, what are they? Are they not exactly what He had determined and permitted to happen and that which He upholds? Well, as far as I'm concerned, whatever is in the foreknowledge of God is no more than whatever He had determined and permitted to happen.
« Last Edit: Wed Mar 11, 2020 - 11:11:52 by Michael2012 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #57 on: Wed Mar 11, 2020 - 10:28:36 »
Quote from: Michael
And if you won't live with the disagreement, and will go on to state that I am wrong, then I think I will have to go on refuting you then.

I gave the dictionary meaning to refute what you said, that "Foreknowledge is not foresight." But of course you will not accept that you have been refuted. I don't really care. What I care about is that what is wrong be shown to be wrong.

What I said is "the foreknowledge of God involves determination as well."

The foreknowledge of God (divine foreknowledge) is different from that of man's.

You contend that man have no foreknowledge. Let's see about that. You already pointed out that man have some foresight. That is foreknowledge. The President had determined what he will say in his speech, so that he knows beforehand what He will be saying in His speech. That is foreknowledge. Do you see determinism involved there?

In the beginning, when there was not creation, God determined His creation plan. Even before creation, God had seen and knew His creation beforehand. That is foreknowledge. So what He saw and knew by His foreknowledge is nothing but what He had determined in plan to happen. Don't you see determinism involved there?
It seems there is a fundamental difference in belief regarding forgiveness here. It seems that you and Red, and "many" others believe God chooses who He will forgive based on nothing a man does. That a man has no choice, no input, no part in his own salvation. To the point that Red even believes Nicodemus was "Born again" and had no conscious knowledge of the change when he went to see Jesus my night so no one would see him.

This is a popular belief, and an excellent marketing strategy for the religion which promotes this doctrine. If you are part of this religion, then you have been chosen by God to be saved from the foundation of the world based on nothing you "did", and nothing you do can change that.

But the scriptures continually, from Gen. to Rev., speak of men "choosing" things. The entire Bible is instruction. In fact, even the word Bible could be said to be the initials of "Basic Instruction Before Leaving Earth.

According to the scriptures, men are to "seek God", "turn to God", "Repent towards God", "Follow God", "walk as He walked", and over and over and over and over. From Gen. "If you do well, shall you not be accepted", to Paul's words "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness", to Rev. "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

But somehow religious men, who come in Christ's name, have convinced the masses that this labor is useless, because God either makes you do them, or He keeps you from doing them.

Scripturally speaking, this religious doctrine is not true.

Forgiveness from God is something we seek after Michael. On HIS Terms, not mans.


That's what's left of what you post that relates to my post in the quotebox.

So, I have nothing to really respond to. Sorry.

Offline soterion

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #58 on: Wed Mar 11, 2020 - 11:41:54 »
The foreknowledge you say there is that of God's, who alone have absolute knowledge of not only some but all future events. But man have foreknowledge also, though not in the same degree and capacity as that of God's. Despite the difference, that is foreknowledge nonetheless.

I have to disagree regarding man's foreknowledge. Man does not have foreknowledge...at all. Man is not prescient. Foreknowledge, as we are talking abut here, is the knowledge that a certain event is definitely going to take place. Man does not have that capacity.

What you are referring to as foreknowledge on the part of man I would rather refer to as assumption. We assume a whole lot about the future. ::disco::

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #59 on: Thu Mar 12, 2020 - 01:24:23 »
I have to disagree regarding man's foreknowledge. Man does not have foreknowledge...at all. Man is not prescient. Foreknowledge, as we are talking abut here, is the knowledge that a certain event is definitely going to take place. Man does not have that capacity.

What you are referring to as foreknowledge on the part of man I would rather refer to as assumption. We assume a whole lot about the future. ::disco::

I think what we are really talking about foreknowledge here is the sense of knowing something beforehand. For our discussion is on the passage 1 Peter 1:1-2, touching on the Christians being chosen by God to salvation even from before the foundation of the world. That some contend that their election was on the basis that God knew beforehand that the Christians will believe.

I will not belabor and argue further on the matter of man having foreknowledge or not. I will just have to let it be, that we disagree on that. That's really beside the point in the subject of 1 Pet. 1:1-2 anyway, for there we are talking about divine foreknowledge and not that of man.

*edited / correction of the statement in red
« Last Edit: Thu Mar 12, 2020 - 09:56:46 by Michael2012 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #60 on: Thu Mar 12, 2020 - 05:07:12 »
Quote from: 4WD
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.  Foreknowledge has nothing whatsoever to do with God's sovereign will.  God knows the ending from the beginning  --  even those things God hates.  What you try to impose upon God is simply obscene.  Foreknowledge is not determinism in any sense of the word; there is no element of determinism in it.  That is an adulteration of God's traits and His character which is made necessary by the Calvinist doctrine of TULIP.
+1 For this.

Evidently, each one of us, Christians that is, knows and appreciate God in different degrees. We ought to respect each other in this regard, for such is between the Christian and God.   

As for me, God's foreknowledge has something to do with all the other divine traits of God. In general, each trait somehow has to do something with each of the other traits. They are interdependent, if I may say so.

Regarding God's foreknowledge, this is how I see it.

In the beginning, before all creation, God had determined His plan. Of course, in all that, basically all of God's traits, such as sovereignty, wisdom, goodness, omnipotence, omniscience, etc. are involved. I could not view it otherwise. Of this plan, God sees and knows beforehand everything that will happen, from beginning to end. That is God's omniscience and foreknowledge in particular. That all that was in His plan, would come to pass exactly according to His foreknowledge.

Now, we come across this scriptures:

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.


It tells us, that the Christians were chosen by God unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. That in bold speaks of a predestination. But this passage does not tell us, as to when God had elected the Christians. Though it does tell us that the Christians are elect according to the foreknowledge of God. So, let's try to see if there are scriptures that will tell us when God had elected the Christians.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

This passage tells us that the Christians were chosen by God to salvation, even from the beginning. When is this "beginning" exactly? From other scriptures like Eph. 1:4, we learn that it is before the foundation of the world. So, we know now that the Christians were chosen to salvation even before God created the world.

Now, some Christians take issue, that this election of the Christians, was because they believed. And with regards the scriptures that teach that such election was even before the foundation of the world, they see the explanation in God's foreknowledge. On the letter, nothing seems to be wrong with that. But when I search for scriptures that teaches that, I found no scriptures saying that to be the case. It's all then just their opinion and conclusion. In relation to God's election of people for various reasons, what I found are scriptures that speak of the sovereignty of God in a lot of instance, such as first of Noah's family of 8 whom he saved from his wrath over the wicked generation of Noah's time; of Abraham, of Isaac, of Jacob, of Moses, of the physical descendants of Israel, of Pharaoh, of the apostles, of Judas, and of course, the children of God ~ the children of promise, the Israel of God. Concerning these elections, the sovereignty of God is very much involved, but not without all His other traits which includes His omniscience. So, my position in the Christian's election by God to salvation even before creation, is that what God had determined of them then, is exactly what happens according to His foreknowledge of these things before they had actually happened ~ their salvation, their second birth.

Another issue I have with that position is on the belief that the election of the Christians, was because of some meritorious act that they have done, that is, because they believe. (To them it could not be that God chose them to save, or that it is impossible that God chose to save them, if not that they chose God first to be saved by Him, which in my reading of scriptures is shown to be contrary to the truth, for it is God who ever always chose first.) Such position strip and rob God of the glory in every angle, glorifying the Christian (for believing in God) rather than glorifying God (for choosing them to salvation). The Holy Spirit who dwells in the Christian tells me that all glory comes from God and rightfully belongs to God. So, any teaching or doctrine that glorifies others rather than God is questionable.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #61 on: Thu Mar 12, 2020 - 06:13:38 »


2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

This passage tells us that the Christians were chosen by God to salvation, even from the beginning. When is this "beginning" exactly? From other scriptures like Eph. 1:4, we learn that it is before the foundation of the world. So, we know now that the Christians were chosen to salvation even before God created the world.

Now, some Christians take issue, that this election of the Christians, was because they believed. And with regards the scriptures that teach that such election was even before the foundation of the world, they see the explanation in God's foreknowledge. On the letter, nothing seems to be wrong with that. But when I search for scriptures that teaches that, I found no scriptures saying that to be the case. It's all then just their opinion and conclusion.
If you didn't find any scriptures saying that, perhaps you should have read the verse you quoted a little more carefully. I highlighted in red the part that says precisely that God's choosing from the beginning was through belief of (in) the truth in addition to the sanctifying work of the Spirit. God could choose based upon belief only through His foreknowledge of that belief.

Offline RB

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #62 on: Thu Mar 12, 2020 - 06:24:48 »
To me, it is very simple~let me explain this in very few words.
Quote from: Peter
1st Peter 1:2~Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
God alone is immutable, among both created spirits (angels) and man. God alone cannot be tempted with sin and with him there is no variableness.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
James 1:17~“Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.”
With created spirits and man there IS. God KNOWING this~ since he alone knows all things... the end from the beginning and all things in between. So He in his infinite knowledge of all things elected some to salvation and passed over others according to his own sovereign will BOTH among angels and man. This election of grace is not based on any foreseen good works of any, for when left to themselves none of them would have continued in the state in which they were created since NO ONE possess the perfect attributes that God alone possessed.

It truly is not that complicated if we are willing to submit our feeble wisdom, understanding to the word of God. God does not owe anyone anything for he gave all a perfect opportunity to continue in the sate in which he created both angels and man, the ONLY thing he did not do for them is that he did not SECURE their state in which they were created and neither was he under obligation to do so.  Under the New Covenant, he did secure the salvation of his elect....
Quote
through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ
Selah..... and praise be to the glory of his grace to us THROUGH Jesus Christ his holy Son.
« Last Edit: Thu Mar 12, 2020 - 06:28:09 by RB »

Online Jaime

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #63 on: Thu Mar 12, 2020 - 06:30:21 »
And Michael how does God foreknow these things? Because he exists outside of time and sees the past, present and future simultaneously. He SEES someone’s ultimatr future belief before it happens in what we perceive as real time present. We can’t comprehend that fully because we are three dimensional beings within physical time and space. God is not.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #64 on: Thu Mar 12, 2020 - 06:57:19 »
To me, it is very simple~let me explain this in very few words. God alone is immutable, among both created spirits (angels) and man. God alone cannot be tempted with sin and with him there is no variableness. With created spirits and man there IS. God KNOWING this~ since he alone knows all things... the end from the beginning and all things in between. So He in his infinite knowledge of all things elected some to salvation and passed over others according to his own sovereign will BOTH among angels and man.
I just showed Michael that his quoting of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says that God's choosing to save was through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth...  So yes it was according to His own sovereign will. It was according to His own sovereign will that his choosing was through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit and according to His foreknowledge of their believing in truth. 

There is no reason to think that "according to His own sovereign will" excludes what He knows beforehand, namely, the faith of the one He saves.

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #65 on: Thu Mar 12, 2020 - 08:36:56 »
I think what we are really talking about foreknowledge here is the sense of knowing something beforehand. For our discussion is on the passage 1 Peter 1:1-2, touching on the Christians being chosen by God to salvation even from before the foundation of the world. That their election was on the basis that God knew beforehand that the Christians will believe.

I will not belabor and argue further on the matter of man having foreknowledge or not. I will just have to let it be, that we disagree on that. That's really beside the point in the subject of 1 Pet. 1:1-2 anyway, for there we are talking about divine foreknowledge and not that of man.

Regarding man's foreknowledge, you can claim what you want, I will accept my limitations.

James 4:13-15.
Come now, ye that say, To-day or to-morrow we will go into this city, and spend a year there, and trade, and get gain: whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. What is your life? For ye are a vapor, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall both live, and do this or that.

As to God's foreknowledge, He knew who would be sprinkled with the blood of Christ and receive sanctification of the Spirit.. It takes more than 1 Peter 1:1-2 to get a more complete understanding of this topic so as to know where faith fits in, such as 2 Thess 2:13. God foreknows who will believe so as to receive the cleansing of the blood and sanctification of the Spirit.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #66 on: Thu Mar 12, 2020 - 09:25:01 »
Quote from: Michael
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

This passage tells us that the Christians were chosen by God to salvation, even from the beginning. When is this "beginning" exactly? From other scriptures like Eph. 1:4, we learn that it is before the foundation of the world. So, we know now that the Christians were chosen to salvation even before God created the world.

Now, some Christians take issue, that this election of the Christians, was because they believed. And with regards the scriptures that teach that such election was even before the foundation of the world, they see the explanation in God's foreknowledge. On the letter, nothing seems to be wrong with that. But when I search for scriptures that teaches that, I found no scriptures saying that to be the case. It's all then just their opinion and conclusion.
If you didn't find any scriptures saying that, perhaps you should have read the verse you quoted a little more carefully. I highlighted in red the part that says precisely that God's choosing from the beginning was through belief of (in) the truth in addition to the sanctifying work of the Spirit. God could choose based upon belief only through His foreknowledge of that belief.

Perhaps you should have read the verse more carefully. For what it says is that "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation". Now the "through" refers not about the choosing, but the salvation. Paul was saying that the salvation for which God had chosen the Christians, was through the sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

Besides I don't find much sense where God chooses the Christians through the sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #67 on: Thu Mar 12, 2020 - 09:52:41 »
And Michael how does God foreknow these things? Because he exists outside of time and sees the past, present and future simultaneously. He SEES someone’s ultimatr future belief before it happens in what we perceive as real time present. We can’t comprehend that fully because we are three dimensional beings within physical time and space. God is not.

I don't know where your post is coming from Jaime. I'll just guess here.

I don't know exactly how. All I know is God is omniscient. I believe, since He exist in eternity, He exist both in and outside of time. What we know is what scriptures says concerning the Christians, that they were chosen to salvation even from the foundation for the world.

Offline seekingHiswisdom

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #68 on: Thu Mar 12, 2020 - 10:08:30 »
I don't know where your post is coming from Jaime. I'll just guess here.

I don't know exactly how. All I know is God is omniscient. I believe, since He exist in eternity, He exist both in and outside of time. What we know is what scriptures says concerning the Christians, that they were chosen to salvation even from the foundation for the world.

Then why are you over thinking about unbelievers?

They are not going to be saved . Not the way you and I hopefully are. (I say hopefully for me cause the way my life goes I could blow it)

2 Peter 3:8-10
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward [a]us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

But that all should come to repentance. We know all will not.

If they perish. If they cease to be as in permanent oblivious death.... is that so bad?

Are you somehow concerned for yourself, as in doubting? Or a person you are close to?

You seem to want us to tell you that all will be well for them. I cannot do that based on what I have read in our hand book and book of rules called the bible.


Offline Michael2012

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Re: Forgive to Be Forgiven
« Reply #69 on: Thu Mar 12, 2020 - 10:48:13 »
Then why are you over thinking about unbelievers?

They are not going to be saved . Not the way you and I hopefully are. (I say hopefully for me cause the way my life goes I could blow it)

2 Peter 3:8-10
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward [a]us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

But that all should come to repentance. We know all will not.

If they perish. If they cease to be as in permanent oblivious death.... is that so bad?

Are you somehow concerned for yourself, as in doubting? Or a person you are close to?

You seem to want us to tell you that all will be well for them. I cannot do that based on what I have read in our hand book and book of rules called the bible.

When I refer to unbelievers, I mean to refer to the natural man, the sinners, the non Christians, the still unconverted. We were once among the unbelievers. And since we are no longer an unbeliever and are saved, they too may someday be converted and be saved.

You asked "Are you somehow concerned for yourself, as in doubting? Or a person you are close to?"

No I am not concerned at all, nor for a person close to me who is a Christian. We, the Christians, are all secured in Christ. Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ.
« Last Edit: Thu Mar 12, 2020 - 10:55:34 by Michael2012 »

 

     
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