Author Topic: “Gathered To His People” (Read 1730 times)

4WD · « **Reply #35 on:** Tue Jan 12, 2021 - 05:29:06 »

RB, you quoted John:

Quote from: RB on Tue Jan 12, 2021 - 04:15:57

Quote
1st John 3:2~"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

And in your mind you interpret that as

Quote

1st John 3:2~"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he WAS.

Your assumption being that, after being ascended into heaven to once again reside with God, the Father, Jesus is literally the same animate being that was raised from the tomb. Of course, you are not alone in thinking that. And you could be correct in that assumption. However, I think that is a serious belittling and disparaging of the real glories of heaven.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #35 on:** Tue Jan 12, 2021 - 05:29:06 »

DaveW · « **Reply #36 on:** Tue Jan 12, 2021 - 05:40:10 »

Quote from: 4WD on Tue Jan 12, 2021 - 05:05:41

And you think that Jesus' healing was by the appeal through prayer?

Mark 8:23
Taking the blind man by the hand, He brought him out of the village; and after spitting on his eyes and laying His hands on him, He asked him, “Do you see anything?” 24 And he looked up and said, “I see men, for I see them like trees, walking around.” 25 Then again He laid His hands on his eyes; and he looked intently and was restored, and began to see everything clearly.

Laying on of hands is an ACT of prayer.

Matthew 19:13
Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them.

Acts 6:6
And these they brought before the apostles; and after praying, they laid their hands on them.

Acts 13:3
Then, when they had fasted and prayed and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.

Acts 28:8
And it happened that the father of Publius was lying in bed afflicted with recurrent fever and dysentery; and Paul went in to see him and after he had prayed, he laid his hands on him and healed him.

1 Timothy 2:8
Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension.

4WD · « **Reply #37 on:** Tue Jan 12, 2021 - 05:49:07 »

Quote from: Reformer on Mon Jan 11, 2021 - 21:18:45

4WD:

In one of your replies above to another scribe, you said, "Thus far, Buff, DaveW and 3 Resurrections all seem to think heaven will just another physical existence not a whole lot different from this one."

Never in my lifetime as a believer have I entertained such a view. Nor have I ever left that impression in any of my writings relative to eternity, heaven, and paradise.

Buff

In your original post you said,

Quote from: Reformer on Sun Jan 10, 2021 - 14:03:54

Then will there be a resurrection of our physical selves? Of course! On that occasion, our spirit will be reunited with our transformed body. Paul wrote, “The Lord Jesus Christ will transform our lowly [physical] body to be like His glorious body” [Phil. 3:20]. Our fleshly bodies will be changed. Paul noted in another place, “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the [eternal] kingdom of God” [I Cor. 15:50].

It is from that that I made the statement that you objected to. If I have misinterpreted you concerning what you meant by "a resurrection of our physical selves", I apologize.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #37 on:** Tue Jan 12, 2021 - 05:49:07 »

4WD · « **Reply #38 on:** Tue Jan 12, 2021 - 05:57:47 »

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Jan 12, 2021 - 05:40:10

Mark 8:23
Taking the blind man by the hand, He brought him out of the village; and after spitting on his eyes and laying His hands on him, He asked him, “Do you see anything?” 24 And he looked up and said, “I see men, for I see them like trees, walking around.” 25 Then again He laid His hands on his eyes; and he looked intently and was restored, and began to see everything clearly.

Laying on of hands is an ACT of prayer.

Matthew 19:13
Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them.

Acts 6:6
And these they brought before the apostles; and after praying, they laid their hands on them.

Acts 13:3
Then, when they had fasted and prayed and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.

Acts 28:8
And it happened that the father of Publius was lying in bed afflicted with recurrent fever and dysentery; and Paul went in to see him and after he had prayed, he laid his hands on him and healed him.

1 Timothy 2:8
Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension.

Not one of those passages you cited equated the laying on of hands with prayer. That the two separate things occurred at the same time does not make them the same things.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #38 on:** Tue Jan 12, 2021 - 05:57:47 »

Reformer · « **Reply #39 on:** Tue Jan 12, 2021 - 13:32:45 »

4WD:

"If I have misinterpreted you concerning what you meant by 'a resurrection of our physical selves,' I apologize."

Thank you, brother. I appreciate your posture.

Buff

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #39 on:** Tue Jan 12, 2021 - 13:32:45 »

Wycliffes_Shillelagh · « **Reply #40 on:** Tue Jan 12, 2021 - 14:11:09 »

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Jan 11, 2021 - 08:30:46

The only reason to NOT interpret literally is to protect some other preconceived doctrinal issue that a literal interpretation would countermand.

There's also the reason that the text tells us to interpret it figuratively.

For instance, when the text calls something a parable.

Or when the book contains a preface saying that what is written is a vision, and that an interpreter was sent to help him understand.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #40 on:** Tue Jan 12, 2021 - 14:11:09 »

Wycliffes_Shillelagh · « **Reply #41 on:** Tue Jan 12, 2021 - 14:16:49 »

Quote from: Reformer on Sun Jan 10, 2021 - 14:03:54

“Breath” is not meant. We’re not speaking of Moses’ breath being gathered to his people, as some define “spirit.” What in the name of logic would a bunch of “breaths” do when gathered, share halitosis? And what would a “flock of breaths” look like, anyway? Instead, we are talking about the actual man, for man’s spirit is the core of his existence. Man’s spirit is “the vital principle by which the body is animated, the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides” [Thayer’s Greek Lexicon].

True, one of the renderings of “spirit” is “breath,” but never when it involves the crux of man’s existence. When Jacob’s spirit was revived after he was told his son Joseph was alive, his breathing did not improve. Rather, his inner man was infused with vitality [Gen. 45:23-28].

I think "breath" meant a lot more to the ancients than it does to us today.

For us, it's air that goes in and out. We use it to sate our need for oxygen, and that's about all.

For them, it was the medium by which knowledge was conveyed - the breath carried the voice, and thus by it all learning occurred.

For them it was a means by which the body was moved - pneumatics were thought to animate bodies, rather than muscles.

To have your breath leave your body, was to have all your thoughts discharged, as well as the means to continue operating your body.

Jarrod

Reformer · « **Reply #42 on:** Tue Jan 12, 2021 - 21:54:19 »

Jarrod:

Your comments above do not seem to conflict with what I have said, namely, that one's spirit is the core of his existence.

Thanks,

Buff

RB · « **Reply #43 on:** Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 04:11:18 »

Quote from: 4WD on Tue Jan 12, 2021 - 05:29:06

RB, you quoted John: And in your mind you interpret that as Your assumption being that, after being ascended into heaven to once again reside with God, the Father, Jesus is literally the same animate being that was raised from the tomb. Of course, you are not alone in thinking that. And you could be correct in that assumption. However, I think that is a serious belittling and disparaging of the real glories of heaven.

If you mean having a LIVING BODY, then I have never said the Father and the Son were ever the SAME in that sense after his birth and even more so after his resurrection from the dead. Jesus Christ was the Son of God from conception, death, and resurrection and will be world without end, that will NEVER change. The mystery of godliness also reveals to us Jesus Christ is the Everlasting Father of ALL THINGS. This could only be so according to his Deity being ONE with the Father in his Divine nature.

That being said, it is very clear in the word of God that God is a Spirit that inhabiteth eternity~always has, and ALWAYS WILL, that will never change. This God had a Son, who was made flesh and blood, who in the likeness of sinful flesh please the Father in all things perfectly from conception to his death by the hands of wicked men, and since he knew no sin, death, and the grave had no power over him thereby, he was raised from the grave who now EVER LIVETH in the SAME BODY, though glorified~ being subject to God because of his HUMANITY being the Son of Man, YET it is written:

Quote

Philippians 2:6-11~"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Jesus Christ is the very express image of God to the glory of his Father and this he was in the FLESH~when he see Jesus then we shall see God and I might add, THE ONLY way possible for any man, or even angels to see God, for God is a SPIRIT with INFINITE attributes that makes him impossible to be seen by anyone EXCEPT the Son who has been in the bosom of the Father from everlasting to everlasting.

Quote from: Paul

1st Timothy 3:16~"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

We can only grasp hold of this so long as we keep Jesus' complex natures separated, his Divinity and his humanity~when Jesus lived in this world around two thousand years ago, the angels saw God for the FIRST TIME, if we hear what Paul is saying to us~The Word which was God, (period) was made flesh when God JOINED HIMSELF to the tabernacle of His Son and lived in this world~preached unto us, and men such as John the beloved apostle saw with his eyes and his hands handled him!

Quote from: John

1st John 1:1-3~"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."

We have not seen with our eyes, but have heard and now enjoy that fellowship in a small measure of the mystery of godliness.

Quote from: 4WD on: Yesterday at 05:07:39

A spiritual body, whatever it is, is not a natural body, not an animate body

Of course it is not a natural body~now, I'll wait for you to explain exactly what YOU mean by animate body, if it is other than just a living body, I'm not sure what you mean, until you explain your understanding of that.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #43 on:** Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 04:11:18 »

RB · « **Reply #44 on:** Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 04:28:25 »

4WD, after reading your post again I see I misunderstood your words looking at a comma that change what you said.

Quote

RB, you quoted John: And in your mind you interpret that as Your assumption being that, after being ascended into heaven to once again reside with God, the Father, Jesus is literally the same animate being that was raised from the tomb.

the comma in between God and the Father cause me to misunderstand your point. Sorry.

3 Resurrections · « **Reply #45 on:** Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 05:09:36 »

Morning RB,

No, you didn’t make a mistake; 4WD in his reply #22 actually does think that we are proposing that God the FATHER is “physically sitting on His throne” with Jesus likewise in a physical body sitting on a throne at God’s right hand.

Jesus’s throne is the mercy seat in heaven, where He actually does sit as our perpetual high priest that “continueth ever” in that role in His glorified resurrected body, as we both agree. But I don’t know where 4WD gets the idea we are proposing a physical body for God the Father as well. Straw man argument he’s throwing out there, I suppose.

DaveW · « **Reply #46 on:** Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 05:24:08 »

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Jan 12, 2021 - 14:16:49

I think "breath" meant a lot more to the ancients than it does to us today.
For us, it's air that goes in and out. We use it to sate our need for oxygen, and that's about all.
For them, it was the medium by which knowledge was conveyed - the breath carried the voice, and thus by it all learning occurred.
For them it was a means by which the body was moved - pneumatics were thought to animate bodies, rather than muscles.
To have your breath leave your body, was to have all your thoughts discharged, as well as the means to continue operating your body.
Jarrod

There is always the trap of assuming people thousands of years ago used word meanings exactly the same as we do. They did not.

That has led to all kinds of problems.

4WD · « **Reply #47 on:** Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 05:34:44 »

Quote from: RB on Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 04:11:18

Of course it is not a natural body~now, I'll wait for you to explain exactly what YOU mean by animate body, if it is other than just a living body, I'm not sure what you mean, until you explain your understanding of that.

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

The word natural is translated from the Greek word ψυχικός [psuchikos]. Strong's has for psuchikos the following:

G5591
ψυχικός
psuchikos
psoo-khee-kos'
From G5590; sensitive that is, animate (in distinction on the one hand from G4152, which is the higher or renovated nature; and on the other from G5446, which is the lower or bestial nature): - natural, sensual.

Thayer has the following:

G5591
ψυχικός
psuchikos
Thayer Definition:
1) of or belonging to breath
1a) having the nature and characteristics of the breath
1a1) the principal of animal life, which men have in common with the brutes
1b) governed by breath
1b1) the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion

I hope that helps you understand my reference to the animate. All of that tells me that there is nothing physical whatsoever about the existence in the resurrection. That is reinforced, in my opinion, when Paul describes the resurrection being as a spiritual body, a spiritual being. If you would bother looking that up, you would find that again, it is diametrically opposed to anything of a physical nature.

To be honest, I find the very idea that Jesus now exists in heaven in some physical body resembling that which He possessed here on earth to be absolutely abominable. That God would keep Him, in any way, somewhat lower than the angels is appalling.

God is Spirit (John 4:24). The Holy Spirit is Spirit, obviously. The preincarnate Jesus was Spirit (John 1:1). The ascended Jesus is Spirit again (John 17:5).

4WD · « **Reply #48 on:** Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 05:56:34 »

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 05:09:36

Morning RB,

No, you didn’t make a mistake; 4WD in his reply #22 actually does think that we are proposing that God the FATHER is “physically sitting on His throne” with Jesus likewise in a physical body sitting on a throne at God’s right hand.

Jesus’s throne is the mercy seat in heaven, where He actually does sit as our perpetual high priest that “continueth ever” in that role in His glorified resurrected body, as we both agree. But I don’t know where 4WD gets the idea we are proposing a physical body for God the Father as well. Straw man argument he’s throwing out there, I suppose.

Perhaps you are not positing Jesus' existence in heaven as a physical being. And perhaps you are not positing those in the resurrection existing as physical beings, but if you bother to read back of some of the replies here you will see that many do.

Many believe that the body of Jesus as raised from His tomb became the body that He now inhabits in heaven. And those same people apparently believe much the same about the body of all in the resurrection:

Quote from: Reformer on Sun Jan 10, 2021 - 14:03:54

Then will there be a resurrection of our physical selves? Of course!

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Jan 11, 2021 - 07:13:33

Yes a physical body.

And you seem not much different:

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Mon Jan 11, 2021 - 07:31:04

4WD, there is a distinct difference between a saint’s physical human body of “flesh and BLOOD” while in this life before death, (which can’t inherit the kingdom of heaven), and a changed body made of that saint’s “flesh and BONES” made incorruptible after death and the resurrection process (which, like the body of the resurrected Christ’s, is in a glorified state that CAN inherit the kingdom of heaven).

As I noted in my reply to that post, such a description is not to be found in the Scriptures. As I have said repeatedly here, the very idea that Jesus is not now existing as the preincarnate being He was before taking on the physical being of the human is appalling. Perhaps not completely heretical, but close to heretical.

DaveW · « **Reply #49 on:** Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 07:37:43 »

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 05:34:44

To be honest, I find the very idea that Jesus now exists in heaven in some physical body resembling that which He possessed here on earth to be absolutely abominable. That God would keep Him, in any way, somewhat lower than the angels is appalling.

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 05:56:34

As I have said repeatedly here, the very idea that Jesus is not now existing as the preincarnate being He was before taking on the physical being of the human is appalling. Perhaps not completely heretical, but close to heretical.

Your statements are based on the faulty assumption that eternity and time are the same thing. The physical risen Christ described in Rev 1 is how He exists in eternity. Always did and always will.

4WD · « **Reply #50 on:** Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 09:00:30 »

Quote from: DaveW on Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 07:37:43

Your statements are based on the faulty assumption that eternity and time are the same thing.

I have never made such an assumption. I have never stated such a concept.

Quote from: DaveW on Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 07:37:43

The physical risen Christ described in Rev 1 is how He exists in eternity. Always did and always will.

And you talk about faulty assumptions. That one takes the cake. There is nothing in all of the Scriptures that would even suggest that there was anything physical before the creation of this universe. That Jesus was a physical being before His birth by Mary is absolutely LUDICROUS.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Do you have even an inkling of what that one-sentence even means? Apparently not. It would seem that you think God exists in physical form also.

DaveW · « **Reply #51 on:** Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 09:57:51 »

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 09:00:30

I have never made such an assumption. I have never stated such a concept.

Actually you did. you said this:

Quote

As I have said repeatedly here, the very idea that Jesus is not now existing as the preincarnate being He was before taking on the physical being of the human is appalling.

The fact that you say there was an eternal "pre-incarnate" Christ says exactly that.
And you use the term "now existing." Again, that ties our timeline into eternity which is not possible.

Wycliffes_Shillelagh · « **Reply #52 on:** Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 10:46:44 »

Quote from: Reformer on Tue Jan 12, 2021 - 21:54:19

Your comments above do not seem to conflict with what I have said, namely, that one's spirit is the core of his existence.

My purpose was to add, not to contradict.

Wycliffes_Shillelagh · « **Reply #53 on:** Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 11:05:46 »

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 05:34:44

To be honest, I find the very idea that Jesus now exists in heaven in some physical body resembling that which He possessed here on earth to be absolutely abominable. That God would keep Him, in any way, somewhat lower than the angels is appalling.

While I disagree with virtually everything else in your post, on this we agree.

The physical corpus which Jesus' Spirit now inhabits is... US. We are the body of Christ, and we reside on earth (where physical bodies belong). He works through us. In Him we live, and move, and have our being.

Personally, what I find appalling is the idea that God is absent from the world. Never has been.

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 05:34:44

God is Spirit (John 4:24). The Holy Spirit is Spirit, obviously. The preincarnate Jesus was Spirit (John 1:1). The ascended Jesus is Spirit again (John 17:5).

While it's entirely correct to say that Jesus is Spirit, it de-emphasizes the reality of His work in the world, accomplished by the use of His Body (again, us). Jesus doesn't lack a physical body, His body is just in a form of symbiosis with the church. Many members, one Body.

Jarrod

3 Resurrections · « **Reply #54 on:** Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 11:18:25 »

4WD,

YOU may think it is “abominable” to currently have Jesus existing in heaven in His physical, glorified resurrected body, but Jesus Himself does NOT regard this as a shameful position to be in. “For both He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause He is NOT ASHAMED to call them brethren.” (Heb. 2:11). “For verily He took not on Him the nature of angels; but He took on Him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved Him to be made LIKE UNTO HIS BRETHREN, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.” (Heb. 2:16-17). And this high priesthood is in a body that “continueth ever” with an “endless life”, just like the man Melchizedek.

You can’t have Jesus acting as a representative high priest who does not share a physical body of flesh and bones that His brethren also have. A representative of a group is typically one of them. When you deny this, it puts you in the EXACT SAME CATEGORY AS THE FULL PRETERIST DON PRESTON. Do you really want to put yourself in that position? Don Preston also claims that Jesus ditched His resurrection body on the way back to heaven at His ascension, and that He exists only as a Spirit today.

You keep saying that “no scripture...no scripture” proves Jesus currently lives in the same glorified body of flesh and bones that the disciples handled and saw for 40 days. That’s so wrong. Here’s a short list:

I Timothy 2:5 - “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, THE *MAN* Christ Jesus.” Not the spirit Christ Jesus, as you are saying.

Hebrews 7:28 - “For the law constitutes men high priests, who have infirmity; but the word of the swearing of the oath which is after the law, a SON FOREVER HAS PERFECTED.” This speaks of Christ as a high priest who “continueth ever” and “ever liveth” in the perfected form of the Son that He was resurrected with, so that we can have a deathless intercessor.

Hebrews 8:1-4 - “Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that THIS MAN have somewhat to offer. For if He were on earth, He should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:”.

This is not a spirit offering anything in heaven’s tabernacle; it is a MAN as our great high priest, continually acting as our intercessor on heaven’s blood-sprinkled mercy seat. Hint: you need this, 4WD. A spirit alone cannot truly represent you, because you are more than just a spirit being.

Luke 21:36 - “Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before THE SON OF *MAN*.” This title for Christ of “The Son of Man” specifically identifies Him as being in a human body form - not as a spirit being. We are not going to stand for judgment by a spirit being. Because God committed all such judgment to the SON (John 5:22). “For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto THE SON.”

John 5:26-27 - “For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath He given to the SON to have life in Himself; And hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the SON OF MAN.” God authorizes the judgment of humanity by the Son of Man because He still shares their human form as the glorified Son of Man. As one who obeyed the Father perfectly while in the flesh, this is perfect justice for Christ in a physical body of glorified flesh and bones to be passing judgment on those who have also had a physical body.

Matthew 25:13 - “Watch therefore, for ye know not the day nor the hour wherein the SON OF MAN cometh.” This was not a prophecy of a spirit being returning. The Son of Man in that glorified human body form was prophesied to make an “APPEARANCE” in His glory. If the returning Christ were a spirit being, this would not be possible. Do I even need to list all the multitude of references stating that Jesus in His return would be making a visible “APPEARANCE”?

Job 27:25-27 - “For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I SEE God: Whom I SHALL SEE for myself, and MINE EYES SHALL BEHOLD, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.” This is the same as the servants of the Lamb (Job’s redeemer) SEEING HIS FACE in Rev. 22:4. This cannot be a view of Christ as a spirit being under consideration.

4WD · « **Reply #55 on:** Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 12:47:30 »

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 11:05:46

Jesus doesn't lack a physical body, His body is just in a form of symbiosis with the church. Many members, one Body.

True enough; but that is a different and completely separate concept than is being discussed here.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 11:05:46

Personally, what I find appalling is the idea that God is absent from the world. Never has been.

I agree, but I don't think anyone here has ever said that or even suggested that.

4WD · « **Reply #56 on:** Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 13:00:20 »

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 11:18:25

YOU may think it is “abominable” to currently have Jesus existing in heaven in His physical, glorified resurrected body, but Jesus Himself does NOT regard this as a shameful position to be in. “For both He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause He is NOT ASHAMED to call them brethren.” (Heb. 2:11). “For verily He took not on Him the nature of angels; but He took on Him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved Him to be made LIKE UNTO HIS BRETHREN, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.” (Heb. 2:16-17).

"...to make reconciliation for the sins of the people." That was done once and for all on the cross. It was done and accomplished. He is not still engaged in that.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 11:18:25

And this high priesthood is in a body that “continueth ever” with an “endless life”, just like the man Melchizedek.

Pure unadulterated nonsense. Show us that from Scripture.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 11:18:25

You can’t have Jesus acting as a representative high priest who does not share a physical body of flesh and bones that His brethren also have.

So says 3 Resurrections, but not Scripture. 3 Res, you are so full of eisegesis in so much of what you post, it is hard to take you serious on anything.

4WD · « **Reply #57 on:** Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 13:16:12 »

Quote from: DaveW on Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 09:57:51

Actually you did. you said this:The fact that you say there was an eternal "pre-incarnate" Christ says exactly that.
And you use the term "now existing." Again, that ties our timeline into eternity which is not possible.

Nah. A timeline applies only to this physical universe. Eternity is not a measure of time; rather it is a state of being.

And as a aside, even time in this universe is not independent of space. There really is not space and time outside of this physical universe. There is only spacetime.

It is very difficult to think in terms that are outside of the physical because we have no other experience to guide us. The tendency is to meld the two as you, and so many others, are trying to do. That is obviously why all references and descriptions of the spiritual realm are presented symbolically.

Wycliffes_Shillelagh · « **Reply #58 on:** Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 14:21:17 »

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 12:47:30

Quote
Jesus doesn't lack a physical body, His body is just in a form of symbiosis with the church. Many members, one Body.
True enough; but that is a different and completely separate concept than is being discussed here.

They're related enough to be mutually exclusive...

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. (John 16)

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 12:47:30

Quote
Personally, what I find appalling is the idea that God is absent from the world. Never has been.
I agree, but I don't think anyone here has ever said that or even suggested that.

I think the idea of "physically embodied, but not on earth" is the definition of absence.

Jarrod

Reformer · « **Reply #59 on:** Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 22:39:04 »

Fellow Readers and Scribes

Just a brief note to say we have pretty well worn this side of the subject out. Sometime tomorrow [Thursday], I will formulate a few additional reflections on...

Death
Spirit
Soul
Visions
Sleep

It will be presented under a different Heading.

Blessings & Goodnight,

Buff

RB · « **Reply #60 on:** Thu Jan 14, 2021 - 04:09:36 »

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 11:18:25

Do I even need to list all the multitude of references stating that Jesus in His return would be making a visible “APPEARANCE”?

You gave enough and I agree with what you have given, and so much more could be said to prove that Jesus lives far above all in a body fashion like unto our fleshly body, only one that has been raised in glory, power, and honour.

Quote from: JESUS CHRIST

Matthew 5:8~"Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God."

This verse can only be true of the Son of God, not God the Father, for he is a Spirit, that NO MAN OR ANGELS have or can see, not now, not ever, for He inhabiteth eternity, always has, always will.

Quote

Isaiah 57:15~"For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."

Of course, your scripture quote from Job should convince anyone with an open mind toward the truth.

Quote

Revelation 1:7~"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Quote

Zechariah 13:6~"And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends."

We shall see with our own eyes the wounds in his hands, without questioning. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. Amen.

RB · « **Reply #61 on:** Thu Jan 14, 2021 - 04:16:24 »

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Jan 13, 2021 - 13:16:12

Nah. A timeline applies only to this physical universe. Eternity is not a measure of time; rather it is a state of being.

And as a aside, even time in this universe is not independent of space. There really is not space and time outside of this physical universe. There is only spacetime.

It is very difficult to think in terms that are outside of the physical because we have no other experience to guide us. The tendency is to meld the two as you, and so many others, are trying to do. That is obviously why all references and descriptions of the spiritual realm are presented symbolically.

Agreed. In a few words, you said a lot that's true. But not ready sure what this has to do with our Lord been raised with a spiritual body never to see corruption, that is not governed by what our natural bodies are governed by. I have some reading to catch up on...later my dear friend. RB

4WD · « **Reply #62 on:** Thu Jan 14, 2021 - 06:40:06 »

Quote from: RB on Thu Jan 14, 2021 - 04:16:24

But not ready sure what this has to do with our Lord been raised with a spiritual body never to see corruption, that is not governed by what our natural bodies are governed by.

You speak of a "spiritual body" that is not governed by what our natural bodies are governed by. What does that even mean? I am almost positive that in your mind you imagine something physical, something with arms that move, eyes that see, etc. But those are all physical, not spiritual, aspects. Arms that move are controlled by muscles that consume energy provided by food which is ingested and digested, all of which is governed by the physics of a physical world. To see is a physical response of physical nerves to photons in a certain limited energy range; again, this is all governed by the physics of a physical, not spiritual, world. In this physical world, even mental activities such as thinking are governed by physical processes, most of which we don't understand very well, but nevertheless it is so. The sensation of touch is also a completely physical reality, both with respect to the sense of touch and what is being touched. The raised body of Jesus was not a spiritual body; it was a physical body. Thomas was not fooled somehow when Jesus invited him to put his finger in the holes in Jesus' hands and place his hand in Jesus' side. That was real. That was not a spiritual body, that was an actual natural body. You can't feel, smell, taste, hear or see the spiritual. So again, I ask what it even means to speak of a spiritual body is not governed by what our natural bodies are governed by?

3 Resurrections · « **Reply #63 on:** Thu Jan 14, 2021 - 07:40:41 »

Jarrod’s former example I mentioned above of a gasoline engine is the best way to explain why a “spiritual body” still has tangible elements that can be seen and handled.

A gasoline engine is not composed entirely of gasoline alone. Gasoline is what provides the sole POWER by which that engine runs.

A “spiritual body” is not composed entirely of spirit alone. Spirit is what provides the sole POWER by which that body lives forever.

“*IT* is sown a natural body.” Then the very same dead natural body is changed when the very same “*IT* is raised a spiritual body.” I Cor. 15 is a very plain sentence. It does not eliminate the physical aspects in the “spiritual body”.

A “natural body” before death was powered by BLOOD. (because “the life of the flesh is in the blood”). When it is raised and changed to the incorruptible and immortal, blood is absent, (just like Christ’s resurrected body of “flesh and bones” - not “flesh and blood”, which cannot inherit the kingdom). That former natural body when raised from the dead and changed to the incorruptible state is then powered by the SPIRIT alone, and therefore is called a “spiritual body”. This isn’t deep.

When God “raised Christ from the dead and GAVE HIM GLORY” in the process, this changed Christ’s natural body into a glorified spiritual body which was displayed to the disciples that resurrection day.

4WD · « **Reply #64 on:** Thu Jan 14, 2021 - 08:06:19 »

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Thu Jan 14, 2021 - 07:40:41

Gasoline is what provides the sole POWER by which that engine runs.

That is not even a true statement. And anyone with even a minimum knowledge of the physics of internal combustion engines knows that. That fact alone wipes out your argument. That you even attempt at such an argument only demonstrates your lack of understanding of the subject matter being discussed. The simple truth is that neither you nor anyone else has the slightest inkling of what a "spiritual body" is. Paul doesn't explain it at all. All that he says is that it is not a natural body. Even the notion, as you have expressed, that a spiritual body is "powered" by something is an appeal to a physical entity, i.e., power.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Thu Jan 14, 2021 - 07:40:41

A “spiritual body” is not composed entirely of spirit alone.

You haven't the slightest idea what a "spiritual body" is composed of. Even the idea that it is "composed" of something centers on the concept of being physical, i.e., natural, not spiritual. There is nothing to suggest, as you propose, that a spiritual body can be seen and handled. In fact that flies in the face of the very concept of the spiritual.

3 Resurrections · « **Reply #65 on:** Thu Jan 14, 2021 - 08:49:14 »

If you yourself don’t have “the slightest inkling” of what a “spiritual body” is, 4WD, that’s your problem. Scripture does not leave us in total ignorance of the subject. The example of the spiritual body of the RESURRECTED, GLORIFIED CHRIST, displayed for 40 days to witnesses chosen beforehand is proof of what we all will finally inherit, since we are called “joint-heirs” with Christ in Romans 8:17. What part of “joint-heirs” do you not understand?

4WD · « **Reply #66 on:** Thu Jan 14, 2021 - 09:15:36 »

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Thu Jan 14, 2021 - 08:49:14

If you yourself don’t have “the slightest inkling” of what a “spiritual body” is, 4WD, that’s your problem. Scripture does not leave us in total ignorance of the subject. The example of the spiritual body of the RESURRECTED, GLORIFIED CHRIST, displayed for 40 days to witnesses chosen beforehand is proof of what we all will finally inherit, since we are called “joint-heirs” with Christ in Romans 8:17. What part of “joint-heirs” do you not understand?

Once again your eisegesis strikes out. The Bible never speaks about a "spiritual body of the RESURRECTED, GLORIFIED CHRIST,"

And I suspect that I understand at least as much as you about being "joint heirs" with Christ. We are joint heirs with Christ NOW. And that has nothing to do with a spiritual body. We "have received the Spirit of adoption as sons"... (Rom 8:15).. Have received... a past event; a done deal.

3 Resurrections · « **Reply #67 on:** Thu Jan 14, 2021 - 10:42:50 »

EXACTLY. We already have the indwelling Spirit as saints. This IS a “done deal”, as you have said. Anyone having this Spirit of God “HATH everlasting life”. A past event. Very true.

But that’s not all of the saints’ complete inheritance, because that very indwelling Spirit is called “the *EARNEST* OF THE SPIRIT” in II Corinthians 1:22. “Who hath sealed us and given us the EARNEST of the Spirit in our hearts.”

In Greek, an “earnest” here is written “arrabona”, which is a down-payment or a pledge given in advance as security for a FUTURE fulfillment of what was promised.

You never answered this question: What purpose is there in the Spirit giving the saints a pledge of something expected for FUTURE fulfillment, if we already have the “done deal” of eternal life of the Spirit within?

Ephesians 1:13-14 also speaks of this “earnest” or “arrabon” of the Spirit. “...in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise.” (Something else is promised for the future.) “Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory.”

So what all is included in that “purchased possession”? It’s not just the saints’ spirits and souls; it is their physical body forms as well. “What? Know ye not that your BODY is the temple of the Holy Ghost, which is is you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are BOUGHT WITH A PRICE: therefore, glorify God IN YOUR *BODY* and in your Spirit, which are God’s.” (I Cor. 6:19-20). BOTH spirit and body have been purchased by the precious blood of Christ. What He paid such a costly price for is never going to be relegated to the dump. Both spirit and body for the saints are to be redeemed; only on separate occasions.

Quit trying with your words to cheat the saints of their FULL inheritance given to them in promise by the already existing “EARNEST of the Spirit”. In this life, they have already been given SPIRITUAL eternal life, and will one day be raised as an eternal SPIRITUAL *BODY* as well, to fulfill the promised pledge completely.

johntwayne · « **Reply #68 on:** Thu Jan 14, 2021 - 11:14:10 »

For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
(Php 3:20-21)

Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we shall be. We know that, when He appears, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him just as He is.
(1Jn 3:2)

4WD · « **Reply #69 on:** Thu Jan 14, 2021 - 11:34:38 »

Quote from: johntwayne on Thu Jan 14, 2021 - 11:14:10

For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
(Php 3:20-21)

Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we shall be. We know that, when He appears, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him just as He is.
(1Jn 3:2)

Yes johntwayne, I fully recognize those verses and take no issue with either. I would especially point to the words, "it has not appeared as yet what we shall be". As I see it, those arguing against me here are saying that in fact "it has appeared already what we shall be"; their claim is that it is the body of the risen Jesus Christ. I think that is wrong. If they are correct, then John was wrong.

Christian Forums News:

Author Topic: “Gathered To His People” (Read 1730 times)

Christian Forums and Message Board

Christian Forums and Message Board

Christian Forums and Message Board

Christian Forums and Message Board

Christian Forums and Message Board

Christian Forums and Message Board