Author Topic: God's Power Unto Salvation  (Read 2636 times)

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Offline johntwayne

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God's Power Unto Salvation
« on: Sat Jul 10, 2021 - 13:18:49 »
The gospel is God's power unto salvation.

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For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
(Rom 1:16-17)

The gospel is the message that Christ died that men might be saved from sin.

Quote
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
(1Co 15:1-4)

Reading the two passages of scripture above it is plain that the gospel saves those who trust it for salvation. God's power to save is invested in the gospel and is effective in the life of the man who believes it. This faith comes from hearing the gospel plan of salvation.

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So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
(Rom 10:17)

God's plan is the men hear the gospel, trust it and obey it thus there is a divine side to salvation invested in the gospel and a human side invested in man's ability to hear it, trust it and obey it.

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But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
(Rom 10:8-10)


But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men. "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross. "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."
(Act 5:29-32)

Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
(Rom 6:16-18)

This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
(2Th 1:5-8)

From the preceding it is clear that God does not act on the heart of man miraculously to save Him, but through the gospel He appeals to man and saves man. Example after example of conversion in the book of Acts follows this pattern. First the gospel is preached and then men believe and obey it.

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But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: "Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words. "For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS; EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT And they shall prophesy. 'AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW, BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE. 'THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME. 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.' "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. "For David says of Him, 'I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE; FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN. 'THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED; MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE; BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY. 'YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE; YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.' "Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. "And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY. "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET."' "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified." Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!" So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
(Act 2:14-41)



Offline RB

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #1 on: Sun Jul 11, 2021 - 05:22:49 »
Greetings Johntwayne~my favorite subject, miss it here and one will be without biblical understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ~this does not mean that they that miss this truth is not born again, (for only God knows truly those that are his, we do not know 100%) but for sure they are still in the dark concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ, its true message, purpose, and to whom it is sent, and its 100% success, both toward the elect and non-elect.
Quote from: Paul
2nd Corinthians 2:14-17~"Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ."
Now to your post we have a few things to say, which I'm sure you expected.
Quote from: johntwayne on: Yesterday at 13:18:49
The gospel is God's power unto salvation
And you quoted Romans 1:16 to support what you said concerning the gospel is the power of God. John, context is important as we both know, so let us look at exactly what Paul is saying to us concerning the gospel being the power of God.
Quote from: Paul understood clearly TO WHOM the gospel was the power of God~listen carefully
Romans 1:15-17~"So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
John we all should consider these scriptures in light of, or, alongside ~1st Corinthians 1:16-31~both are saying the exact same thing only saying it a little different but not very much. Consider:

1. To those Paul was addressing his words to:
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Romans 1:7~"To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ."
Paul is only writings to those that are beloved of God and that were called to be saints! It was to them that the gospel of the grace of God was sent unto to reveal to them what Jesus Christ accomplished for them by his life, death, and resurrection form the dead, which is revealed in the gospel when it is preached in it purity.

2. THIS GOSPEL is the power of God only to believers and to them alone! To the rest of the world, it is pure foolishness, and they (the world) truly believe it is below their wisdom to follow such teaching, that they consider is only for the weak-minded folks of this world who have nothing more than to trust in such a useless fable as the gospel of Jesus Christ. The world, consider their wisdom far above following such teachings, and truly such teaching stripped them of all power that they so glory in.

3. According to Romans 1:16 when understood correctly the Gospel is the power of God TO THOSE THAT BELIEVE, for in the gospel they see the wisdom of God on display in providing redemption by his grace through his Son, Jesus Christ's faith and obedience for sinners who were without spiritual strength See and ponder Romans 5:6-11) to hear, see and believe.

Let us hear Paul speak from Romans 1:16,17 carefully:
Quote from: Paul
Romans 1:16,17~"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

Notice a couple of things of great importance: The gospel is the power of God ONLY to believers~so, the salvation under consideration is PRACTICAL in nature, not a salvation from sin and condemnation. God freely regenerates, and the gospel comes and gives us INFORMATION (when it is preached according to the truth) concerning what believers have in Jesus Christ.

The gospel can only be revealed from one person who has faith, to another person who has faith~it is impossible to reveal spiritual truths of the gospel to men still in their sins and serving their own lust. Hear Paul:
Quote from: Paul
Romans 1;17~"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

"For THEREIN"~Only in preaching the gospel is the truth concerning how one receives the righteousness of God. It is a free gift given by grace on the behalf of what Jesus did for that person.

"is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith"~The truth of how one is made the righteousness of God can ONLY be revealed from a person who has faith, to another person who has faith, no way under heaven can any man reveal the truths of the gospel to an unregenerate man~ IMPOSSIBLE according to Paul's teaching in Romans 1:17.

Enough now.  RB
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 11, 2021 - 06:53:54 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #2 on: Sun Jul 11, 2021 - 06:31:14 »
RB, once again you have inserted erroneous Calvinistic theology into the Scriptures.  The whole point of your post is simply wrong.  I will give Johntwayne the opportunity to respond first before I address the grievous flaws the theology you presented here.

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #2 on: Sun Jul 11, 2021 - 06:31:14 »

Offline RB

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #3 on: Sun Jul 11, 2021 - 06:38:14 »
RB, once again you have inserted erroneous Calvinistic theology into the Scriptures.  The whole point of your post is simply wrong.  I will give Johntwayne the opportunity to respond first before I address the grievous flaws the theology you presented here.
You calling it erroneous Calvinistic theology truly proves nothing~you must prove I'm using the scriptures improperly and then show the truth as to why you believe so~I would not wait on John~it's open forum where he posting to everyone...... no one in particular....... I would suggest for you to post.
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erroneous Calvinistic theology
I have not heard many Calvinist explain Romans 1:17 in the manner I did, but  I'm sure some will, mainly the believers who do not believe in gospel means in relation to regeneration will do so. You call them Calvinist, I call them believers. I very seldom ever refer to men like you as Arminians~for it very well could be a misnomer for that particular person. But, I do understand everyone who professes could more or less be placed in either or group~some very hardcore, much like myself, that even John Calvin would find fault.     
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 11, 2021 - 06:49:37 by RB »

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #3 on: Sun Jul 11, 2021 - 06:38:14 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #4 on: Sun Jul 11, 2021 - 07:25:42 »
I try to avoid calling anyone a Calvinist even though I may refer to some of their views as Calvinistic.  One can adhere to the Judeo-Christian values and be neither Jewish nor Christian.  I admit that many of my views may be labeled as Arminianism even though I do not generally call myself an Arminian.  I think you have said much the same thing about you, your beliefs and Calvinism.

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #4 on: Sun Jul 11, 2021 - 07:25:42 »



Offline johntwayne

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #5 on: Sun Jul 11, 2021 - 08:09:41 »
Quote
Let us hear Paul speak from Romans 1:16,17 carefully:
Quote from: Paul
Romans 1:16,17~"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

Notice a couple of things of great importance: The gospel is the power of God ONLY to believers~so, the salvation under consideration is PRACTICAL in nature, not a salvation from sin and condemnation. God freely regenerates, and the gospel comes and gives us INFORMATION (when it is preached according to the truth) concerning what believers have in Jesus Christ.

The gospel can only be revealed from one person who has faith, to another person who has faith~it is impossible to reveal spiritual truths of the gospel to men still in their sins and serving their own lust. Hear Paul:
Quote from: Paul
Romans 1;17~"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

"For THEREIN"~Only in preaching the gospel is the truth concerning how one receives the righteousness of God. It is a free gift given by grace on the behalf of what Jesus did for that person.

"is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith"~The truth of how one is made the righteousness of God can ONLY be revealed from a person who has faith, to another person who has faith, no way under heaven can any man reveal the truths of the gospel to an unregenerate man~ IMPOSSIBLE according to Paul's teaching in Romans 1:17.

In Acts 2 Peter preached the gospel to those who had murdered Christ. They certainly were not believers until they had heard what Peter said. So much for your assertions along that line.

From faith to faith means from the revealed faith to faith in the heart. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. So much for your error along that line.

I cited the conversion of those on Pentecost. They shouted crucify when Christ was condemned, but when they heard that Christ had died and arose for them they were pricked in their hearts and asked what they must do. Peter told them.

Quote
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Act 2:38)

These were sinners and they were told what to do to remedy their sin. They needed to be born again and they were told what to do to accomplish that.

Quote
For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
(Tit 3:3-7)
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 11, 2021 - 08:15:02 by johntwayne »

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #5 on: Sun Jul 11, 2021 - 08:09:41 »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #6 on: Sun Jul 11, 2021 - 10:08:32 »
Following for I feel this is one of the most important topics of all Christianity that we should come together as one mind and voice of God on and speak it as the oracles of God.

I also feel it is one topic that is clearly laid out in the scriptures over all the other debates we may have this one is clearly spelled out in Gods words if men will not add to it or take from it.

Offline 4WD

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #7 on: Sun Jul 11, 2021 - 11:24:03 »
Following for I feel this is one of the most important topics of all Christianity that we should come together as one mind and voice of God on and speak it as the oracles of God.

I also feel it is one topic that is clearly laid out in the scriptures over all the other debates we may have this one is clearly spelled out in Gods words if men will not add to it or take from it.
yogi, the problem is that almost no one comes to the Scriptures free from biases gained from prior thinking or teaching.  This is evident from the posts of RB and Johntwayne.  RB comes with the bias of Total Depravity.  That view of God's dealing with people forces certain conclusions.  In RB's development of his soteriology, that is the driving and fundamental doctrine.  Total Depravity trumps everything.  His entire soteriology derives from that false teaching,  Johntwayne's view does not come with that false burden imposed upon his soteriology.  I am with Johntwayne on this. 

So that while I agree with you that we should all come together as one mind on the topic of God's power unto salvation, that cannot happen so long as we do not all come together as one mind on the erroneous doctrine of Original Sin and the ever worse doctrine of Total Depravity.  If one begins with a false base of Original Sin or Total Depravity, it is nearly impossible to end up with the correct soteriology.

Offline Bemark

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #8 on: Sun Jul 11, 2021 - 20:39:40 »
It’s his life living within you defeating the wages of sin. Life is in the blood . His blood is in you. Drink him eat him . We live now. Outside of him is death

It’s a higher love joy and peace. My golly gosh. If you haven’t the fruit of the spirit you are not declaring the word of the lord and not living in him . I set you a challenge. Declare the scripture that God said you shall be ,that you don’t feel.

Tell me after 5 days after being with him.

If you are depressed ..speak every scripture of joy, do it 30,days. His kingdom come his will be done.


Just do it then comment. I love you my brother and sister

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #8 on: Sun Jul 11, 2021 - 20:39:40 »

Offline Bemark

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #9 on: Sun Jul 11, 2021 - 20:51:41 »
We sin. We die.....we join with him who is life....we live.

If we sin more ....join with him more.his life is the key . He is eternal life . In him we know him and he us. He loves us .....HE LOVES US

Preachers going to hate this . It is this simple .

Just keep being with him. Just keep loving  him for what he was provided for you. We are alive, we live in a world created by him . He is good .receive him daily. He is good

Offline Bemark

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #10 on: Sun Jul 11, 2021 - 21:03:45 »
We are made one in him. Worshiping God is being one with him. In the spirit in the place Jesus Christ talked about. In him we are one

John 17:21
New King James Version
21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
We are already one ....in him we are one body , we are brothers and sisters with 1 father who art in heaven

Offline Bemark

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #11 on: Sun Jul 11, 2021 - 21:21:30 »
We have a different view point...but now can you hug your brother and sister? Do you see each other as a brother and a sister?

This is a key. We are brothers and sisters together and we have one father who art in heaven.

Do we see each other this way? It is the way Christ sees us.

Offline johntwayne

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #12 on: Mon Jul 12, 2021 - 05:02:07 »
Benmark's remarks are not on topic. Could a moderator move them so they don't disturb the flow of the thread.

Offline RB

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #13 on: Mon Jul 12, 2021 - 05:33:24 »
We have a different view point...but now can you hug your brother and sister? Do you see each other as a brother and a sister?

This is a key. We are brothers and sisters together and we have one father who art in heaven.

Do we see each other this way? It is the way Christ sees us.
Thank you Mark for your posts and your love for God, but you need to concentrate to stay with the subject under consideration. Can you try to do that? We love seeing your post so please keep doing so, but consider what the thread is speaking on and post on that. Much love to you~RB

Now, back to the subject....of God's power unto Salvation. 
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 12, 2021 - 05:44:51 by RB »

Offline DaveW

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #14 on: Mon Jul 12, 2021 - 05:38:19 »
The gospel is the message that Christ died that men might be saved from sin.

Hmmm.  IF that is so, then what was the Gospel that our Lord preached years BEFORE He died?

Matthew 4:23
Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people.

Mark 1:14
Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,

Luke 3:18
So with many other exhortations he preached the gospel to the people.


I'm not saying that is not PART of the Gospel; but the Gospel is a LOT more than just that.

Paul's take on it was this:

1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,  4  and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,


The ONLY "scriptures" extant when Paul wrote this was the OT scriptures. That means the ENTIRE gospel is in the OT. 
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 12, 2021 - 05:54:06 by DaveW »

Offline RB

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #15 on: Mon Jul 12, 2021 - 05:43:32 »
yogi, the problem is that almost no one comes to the Scriptures free from biases gained from prior thinking or teaching.  This is evident from the posts of RB and Johntwayne.
Listen to the snail calling the worm slimy! So, you think I do this, but the other side does not? That's very bias and a little prideful if you ask me. God is my judge, not you, and I'm not yours either, so let us show a little charity in believing the best of others' posts UNTIL you are sure you are not biased in the least.
Quote from: 4WD on: Yesterday at 11:24:03
So that while I agree with you that we should all come together as one mind on the topic of God's power unto salvation, that cannot happen so long as we do not all come together as one mind on the erroneous doctrine of Original Sin and the ever worse doctrine of Total Depravity.  If one begins with a false base of Original Sin or Total Depravity, it is nearly impossible to end up with the correct soteriology.
That road runs two ways 4WD, trust you will never forget that~you seem to think otherwise. I could just as easily say the same about your side and before God may be much more correct than you. Let us see in using the scriptures because the scriptures WILL DEFEND THE TRUTH

Offline johntwayne

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #16 on: Mon Jul 12, 2021 - 05:53:58 »
Hmmm.  IF that is so, then what was the Gospel that our Lord preached years BEFORE He died?

Matthew 4:23
Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people.

Mark 1:14
Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,

Luke 3:18
So with many other exhortations he preached the gospel to the people.


I'm not saying that is not PART of the Gospel; but the Gospel is a LOT more than just that.

Jesus taught that He was the Messiah and that He would die for the people that they might be released from their sin. While it may truly be said that all the teaching on righteousness is the gospel, the basics of Jesus' death and resurrection is the heart of that message.

Offline DaveW

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #17 on: Mon Jul 12, 2021 - 05:56:25 »
Jesus taught that He was the Messiah and that He would die for the people that they might be released from their sin. While it may truly be said that all the teaching on righteousness is the gospel, the basics of Jesus' death and resurrection is the heart of that message.
If He was teaching His own death at the beginning of His ministry, why then did Peter and the others react so badly when He said it was going to happen shortly before the crucifixion?  It was a surprise to them.

Offline DaveW

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #18 on: Mon Jul 12, 2021 - 06:00:51 »
the problem is that almost no one comes to the Scriptures free from biases gained from prior thinking or teaching.
I would put it in stronger terms than that.  I would say it is IMPOSSIBLE to leave one's own biases and world view out of interpreting scripture.

That is why it is VITAL to have an understanding of the world view and frame of reference of the original author and original audience.

Offline 4WD

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #19 on: Mon Jul 12, 2021 - 06:12:19 »
Hmmm.  IF that is so, then what was the Gospel that our Lord preached years BEFORE He died?

Matthew 4:23
Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people.

Mark 1:14
Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,

Luke 3:18
So with many other exhortations he preached the gospel to the people.
Here is another of those bad translation/interpretation problems.  I am not sure where the English word "gospel" came from or even what its original meaning might have been.  But it has taken on a special meaning in Christianity that is not necessarily appropriate.  In Greek the word is εὐαγγέλιον [euaggelion]. it is the same word as that in (KJV)Luke 1:19  And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these [euaggelion] glad tidings.

(NASB)Luk 1:19  The angel answered and said to him, "I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to bring you this [euaggelion] good news.   


That is probably the better translation of the word in Matthew 4:23  Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the good news of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people, and similarly for Mark 1:14 and Luke 3:18.  It may well be an acceptable translation in places like Romans 1:16 as well, in which case it defines what is the gospel, the good news, that Paul is speaking about; that is, it is the power of God for salvation. 

Offline 4WD

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #20 on: Mon Jul 12, 2021 - 06:16:01 »
Listen to the snail calling the worm slimy! So, you think I do this, but the other side does not?
RB, I made no such claim.  We ALL come to an understanding of God's word based upon our own biases.  I did not suggest for a second that I am not guilty of the same problem of interpretation.

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #21 on: Mon Jul 12, 2021 - 06:30:54 »
I would put it in stronger terms than that.  I would say it is IMPOSSIBLE to leave one's own biases and world view out of interpreting scripture.

That is why it is VITAL to have an understanding of the world view and frame of reference of the original author and original audience.
That sounds good; but that world view and frame of reference of the original author and original audience will be presented absolutely full of biases as well.

Offline RB

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #22 on: Mon Jul 12, 2021 - 06:51:17 »
RB, I made no such claim.  We ALL come to an understanding of God's word based upon our own biases.  I did not suggest for a second that I am not guilty of the same problem of interpretation.
Okay, thank you for correcting me on this.  My bad...RB

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #23 on: Mon Jul 12, 2021 - 07:45:37 »
God’s word never fails,  but people’s INTERPRETATION of it certainly does. And I might add that most if not ALL versions of the Bible contribute to this. Bias guided the translators without doubt. Also I am convinced that people assume the God of the OT is not the same God of the NT. Or God changed. He didn’t. The Bible is one story not an old one and a new modified updated version. Also there is about as much grace in the OT as there is in the NT.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 12, 2021 - 08:19:45 by Jaime »

Offline DaveW

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #24 on: Mon Jul 12, 2021 - 10:00:12 »
That sounds good; but that world view and frame of reference of the original author and original audience will be presented absolutely full of biases as well.
Of course.  So you need to be looking at the text from the SAME bias and frame of reference. 

Then and ONLY then will you get what the author was trying to say.

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #25 on: Mon Jul 12, 2021 - 10:01:01 »
God’s word never fails,  but people’s INTERPRETATION of it certainly does. And I might add that most if not ALL versions of the Bible contribute to this. Bias guided the translators without doubt. Also I am convinced that people assume the God of the OT is not the same God of the NT. Or God changed. He didn’t. The Bible is one story not an old one and a new modified updated version. Also there is about as much grace in the OT as there is in the NT.
Amen bro!  Well said.

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #26 on: Mon Jul 12, 2021 - 10:36:35 »
Of course.  So you need to be looking at the text from the SAME bias and frame of reference. 

Then and ONLY then will you get what the author was trying to say.
That is nuts because that is all hearsay since neither you nor anyone else can separate out those biases from the truth either.  That history is no more authentic than is the history of the interpretations.  It is your biases that bring you to think otherwise.

Offline RB

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #27 on: Tue Jul 13, 2021 - 04:51:49 »
In Acts 2 Peter preached the gospel to those who had murdered Christ. They certainly were not believers until they had heard what Peter said. So much for your assertions along that line.
A couple of points concerning your abrupt conclusion, to my much more detailed point.

The gospel is much more than what Peter spoke on the day of Pentecost as even Dave pointed out without going into detail concerning the gospel as Paul did for all of us in Galatians 2-5:4. All Peter did was to show the Jews, the very one they put to death was no other than the promised seed to Abraham, David, etc. Mainly using the prophet David to drive home his point that Jesus' soul was not left in the grave/hell, and his soul saw no corruption but was raised from the grave to sit upon the promised throne of David, even at God's right hand, the highest place anyone man can be exalted to, making Jesus more than just a man, even God who is blessed forever. This is a small part of the gospel of Christ but does not in any way comprehend its fullest,  just a small step toward it, nothing more.

Nevertheless, the gospel DOES NOT bring spiritual life , it can only manifest where there is life. Listen carefully to Paul......
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST THROUGH PAUL
2nd Timothy 1:9-11~"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
John, Paul, not me, clearly said that the gospel of Christ brings life and immortality TO LIGHT through the gospel~the gospel does not bring life to a sinner dead in trespasses and sins, God alone gives life and THEN send preachers like Paul to find those that have life given FREELY TO THEM by the power of God based on the grace that was freely given to the elect before the foundation of the world, or from eternity, which is one and the same.

Your error causes you to miss many precious truths provided and performed by the grace and power of God upon sinners for Jesus' sake, or on his behalf.
Quote from: johntwayne on Sun Jul 11, 2021 - 08:09:41
They certainly were not believers until they had heard what Peter said
No they were not believers, yet they WERE regenerated (at least the once that were pricked in their hearts) by the fact of what they said to Peter.

John I have pointed this out before and will once more do so, I know Jaime has not forgotten me saying this since he has mentioned it more than once, so at least I know he gave it some thoughts, by the very fact he has mentioned it a few times over, which at least speaks of his heart considered that I did say, and who knows, it may produce fruits one day. Here is what I desire for you to at least consider: "please compare those here in Acts 2 with the men Stephen spoke to in Acts 7:51-54~ where we read these words:
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth."
John, same message, different results, and we KNOW the different results must be attributed to God's grace NOT man's power to know the truth~one group was no more wicked than the others~the differences between the two groups was God's grace had quickened some (when that quickening occurred NO ONE KNOWS, only God knows, (John 3:8!) yet it occurred because of their hearts being tender toward the gospel) of those that came to Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost. Consider:
Quote
Acts 2:37~"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
Cp.
Quote
Acts 7:54~"When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth."
Now, John, you tell me what made the difference between those of Acts 2:37 and those of Acts 7:54. Your answer will prove if your gospel is base of WORKS or GRACE.
Quote from: johntwayne Reply #5 on: Sun Jul 11, 2021 - 08:09:41
From faith to faith means from the revealed faith to faith in the heart. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. So much for your error along that line.
Makes no sense in what you are saying and, besides, it goes against the scriptures in so many places~one for now.
Quote from: Paul
Philippians 1:29,29~And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God. For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
I could give many more if this one is not enough to show you of your serious error. Maybe one more, for in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 6:44~No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Quote
John 6:65~"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.[/quote
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 13, 2021 - 04:54:27 by RB »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #28 on: Tue Jul 13, 2021 - 05:44:13 »
RB if salvation were dependent only on the will of God then all men would be saved, for He is not willing that any perish but that all come to repentance.

Quote
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
(2Pe 3:9)

Salvation is also dependent upon the will of men--their willingness to repent of their sins. Therein lies the answer to your entire post.

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #29 on: Tue Jul 13, 2021 - 06:09:40 »
RB if salvation were dependent only on the will of God then all men would be saved, for He is not willing that any perish but that all come to repentance.

Salvation is also dependent upon the will of men--their willingness to repent of their sins.
Therein lies the fallacy of Calvinism.  In its version of total depravity, men are unable to make a choice.  "The will of men" becomes removed from the equation entirely. 
It also renders every statement in the bible "Chose you this day ..." or "Repent!" irrelevant and misleading.

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #30 on: Tue Jul 13, 2021 - 06:39:34 »
No they were not believers, yet they WERE regenerated (at least the once that were pricked in their hearts) by the fact of what they said to Peter.
Once again you have inserted into the Scriptures what is simply not there.  There is nothing in the passage that says or even suggests that they were unbelievers yet regenerated.  I think, perhaps, it is because you don't really understand what it means to be regenerated. And this is probably the false doctrine of Original Sin and Total Depravity getting in the way of truth. 

To be born again is not about the physical life, but rather the spiritual life.  To be born again one must have been born earlier and then died.  Paul said that we were all once dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1).  Without going into how we got that way, the point is that to be once dead in trespasses and sins is to be spiritually dead.  Paul goes on to say that "even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- " (Eph 2:5).  Made alive is speaking of the spirit. The previously dead spirit is made alive, i.e., born again, i.e., regenerated.  Notice that Paul here parenthetically points out to be made alive is to be saved by grace.  To be regenerated, to be reborn, to be born again is one and the same as being saved by grace.   The saved are believers; there are no unbelievers who are saved.  Only believers are saved. There is no such thing as a regenerated who is an unbeliever.  There is no such thing as a regenerated who has not been saved.  There is no such thing as a regenerated who has not been forgiven of his sins; to be regenerated is to no longer be dead in trespasses and sins. To no longer be dead in trespasses and sins is to be alive spiritually.  To be alive spiritually is to be in Christ (Eph 2:13).  To be in Christ is to be a child of God. To be a child of God is to be a believer.

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #31 on: Tue Jul 13, 2021 - 06:55:00 »
No they were not believers, yet they WERE regenerated (at least the once that were pricked in their hearts) by the fact of what they said to Peter.
Hmmm.  Not believers, but yet "regenerated."  There are several things I find totally preposterous in that statement. 

First is, were they REALLY unbelievers?  The text clearly states they were "devout Jews from every nation." (v5) A devout Jew is much more than an unbeliever.    They were dwelling in Jerusalem in obedience to the command to be there for the feast of Shavuot/Pentecost. They believed in God and were walking in obedience.

Secondly, how can someone be "regenerated" (or as the Bible puts it "Born Again") without being a believer?

That is enough for now.

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #32 on: Tue Jul 13, 2021 - 06:55:48 »
RB, the truth concerning Acts 2:37 and Acts 7:54 should prove to you that being "pricked in their heart" is not regeneration.  But it did lead to regeneration.  It indicates that they believed what Peter said, yet even believing that Jesus, whom they had crucified,  was both Lord and Christ was not enough; because Peter said they needed to have their sins forgiven and be given the gift of the Holy Spirit.  But in order for that to happen Peter said they needed to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

To be forgiven of their sins and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit was regeneration, rebirth, born again, born from above.

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #33 on: Tue Jul 13, 2021 - 06:57:48 »
RB, the truth concerning Acts 2:37 and Acts 7:54 should prove to you that being "pricked in their heart" is not regeneration.  But it did lead to regeneration.
I believe that is what John Wesley called "Previenient Grace." 

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Re: God's Power Unto Salvation
« Reply #34 on: Tue Jul 13, 2021 - 07:06:14 »
First is, were they REALLY unbelievers?  The text clearly states they were "devout Jews from every nation." (v5) A devout Jew is much more than an unbeliever.    They were dwelling in Jerusalem in obedience to the command to be there for the feast of Shavuot/Pentecost. They believed in God and were walking in obedience.
The were not believers in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior until Peter convinced them of that.  Paul was a believer in God; he was clearly a devout Jew.  But he was lost until, having been confronted on his way to Damascus by Jesus Himself, he had his sins forgiven.  That happened when he was baptized (Acts 9:18; 22:16). Paul was confronted by "devout" Jews throughout his ministry who were unbelievers. They are called Judaizers.

 

     
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