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Author Topic: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men  (Read 16146 times)

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Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #105 on: Sat Aug 12, 2017 - 18:26:16 »
DIALOG lets one ignore clear Scripture.  Before looking at Galatians 3 it is important to not there was only one spiritual covenant made by God in Christ to Abraham.  You can get several Phds without ever reading the STORY LINE: that lets you pick a sentence out of chapter 9 and ignore the rest of the book:

Gen. 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said,
        Gather yourselves together,
        that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.
Gen. 49:2 Gather yourselves together,
        and hear, ye sons of Jacob;
        and hearken unto Israel your father.
Gen. 49:3 Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength,
        the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power:
Gen. 49:4 Unstable as water, thou shalt not excel;
        because thou wentest up to thy father’s bed;
        then defiledst thou it: he went up to my couch.

    Defiled is g2490 translated "play the flute, steal people's inheritance, pollute or prostitute.  or Halal.

    Genesis 49.5 Symeon et Levi fratres vasa iniquitatis bellantia

Gen. 49:5 Simeon and Levi are brethren;
        instruments (h3617 weapon, psaltery)
        of cruelty are in their habitations.
                 (stabbing, dig through furnace, for burning
                 Bellor fight,  carry on war,

h3617 a musical instrument, instruments of God's Wrath. The devices of the evil used to carry out his plans

Gen. 49:6 O my soul,
        come not thou into their secret;
        unto their assembly,
        mine honour,
        be not thou united:
                for in their anger they slew a man,
                and in their selfwill they digged down a wall.

    Consilior to take counsel, to consult,

        h5475 Sod h3245 session, deliberaton, secret.
        h3519  Kabod theglory  or darkness of the temple

    Coitus come A.  Abstr., a coming or meeting together, an assembling: A. A uniting, joining together, combination

Gen. 49:7 Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel:
        I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.

    Divido I. To force asunder, part, separate, divide (very freq. and class.; cf.: distribuo, dispertio; findo, scindo, dirimo, divello, separo, sejungo, segrego, secerno

Gen. 49:8 Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise:
        thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies;
        thy father’s children shall bow down before thee.
Gen. 49:9 Judah is a lion’s whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up:
        he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion;
        who shall rouse him up?

Gen. 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah,
        nor a lawgiver from between his feet,
        until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. [Gentiles]

Shiloh is the REST which Messiah would bring when the Civil-Military-Clergy whom God abandoned to worship the starry host were put down.



Paul commanded that men and women be silent so that the one-piece pattern could take place: "That all might be SAFE and come to a knowledge of THE TRUTH.

The tribe of Levi was disqualified as the PATTERN for the Priesthood of Messiah

Heb. 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

In Galatians 3 Paul ignores the entire Law and Monarchy period and proves that the sons of God and Abraham are those who are baptized into christ.

People from the tribe of Levi could be baptized but they were NOT the predestined SEED LINE.

Rev. 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #105 on: Sat Aug 12, 2017 - 18:26:16 »

Offline RB

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #106 on: Sun Aug 13, 2017 - 04:44:53 »
But, nice calvinistic try!
I'm not going to waste very much time with you, but will say a few things before moving on. Since you continuously call me a Calvinist (which I have no problem with if names need to be given to help others know what a person's Soteriology is) then what does that make you? I think I know your answer before you speak, but please, go ahead, and do so, I'm somewhat curious.
Quote
Again, there is no such thing in the Scriptures as a "covenant of grace," that is wholly calvinistic nonsense conjured up out of the minds of carnal men trying to be teachers of the Scriptures.
We have been over this a few times and we have proven that there are only TWO MAIN COVENANTS spoken of in the scriptures~the first and the second; one made with Adam based on his obedience; one made with Christ based upon his obedience. One God did not intervene to secure Adam and his posterity a guaranteed result of success; the other, made with Christ and his seed, that was SUPPORTED by two immutable things....God's OATH and his PROMISES which we are now considering.
Quote from: God's own testimony concerning his promises to Abraham
Hebrews 6:13-20~"For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec."
The two immutable things are? God's OATH and his PROMISES to the heirs of eternal SALVATION through Christ's obedience/righteousness.

Have you ever sung this song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iZzsrwf_aE....... "Great is thy faithfulness"~ It comes from David's psalms, namely this one:
Quote
Psalm 89:1-4~I will sing of the mercies of the LORD for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations. For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens. I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah."
God's faithfulness is seen in the COVENANT with Christ and HIS SEED, which is totally of GRACE without works on the part of the seed of Christ. Grace was given to them before the world was created, meaning from eternity. See 2nd Timothy 1:9 as one of many proofs. All we need to do is finish reading David's wonderful song written exalting the GRACE of God through Christ, the second Adam.
Quote
Psalm 89:15-37~"Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance. In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted. For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted. For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king. Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty (JESUS CHRIST) ; I have exalted one chosen out of the people. I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him: With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him. The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him. And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him. But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers. He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven. If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah."
The New Covenant is a covenant of GRACE based upon God's faithfulness concerning his oath and promises of GRACE to our David, who slew a giant greater than Goliath who was only a pitiful type.......he slew the devil himself and spoiled his goods which belong to the seed of David of Psalm 89~ which was Jesus Christ.

But, what would a prophet from Mount Sinai know about these things? Not very much.  Those from Jerusalem which is ABOVE are blessed...
Quote from: For David said
"Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound".....
https://www.hymnal.net/en/hymn/h/991 Based upon two IMMUTABEL THINGS!

"Give the winds a mighty voice,
  Jesus saves, Jesus saves;
Let the nations now rejoice.
  Jesus saves, Jesus saves;
Shout salvation full and free,
Highest hills and deepest caves,
This our song of victory,
  Jesus saves, Jesus saves."

By God's help I shall ever shout this wonderful message of GRACE.
« Last Edit: Mon Aug 14, 2017 - 03:50:04 by RB »

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #106 on: Sun Aug 13, 2017 - 04:44:53 »

Online Michael2012

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #107 on: Sun Aug 13, 2017 - 08:07:07 »
Michael said:
Quote
No sir. This is what the text says, even in your quoted version:

8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

That is not at all history. Rather, Paul is clearly telling you who the children of God are, that is, the children of the promise. The "children of the promise" does not refer to the natural physical descendants of Isaac, or do you think so?

Lets look at it again in a wider contextual sphere...

Romans 9:6-12
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named."
8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
9 For this is what the promise said: "About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son."
10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works out because of him who calls--
12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger."

Paul is going over history, from start to finish. He had already addressed the difference between the person (both Israelite or Gentile) that was a 'TRUE' child of God here...

Romans 2:28-29
28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical.
29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

There is absolutely NO reason for Paul to go back again in the same letter and speak about a differentiation between the true Israelite and those who were only of the nation of Israel physically. While it is an easy mistake to make, your claim is not true.

And why not? Your opinion that there is absolutely NO reason for Paul to go back again in the same letter and speak about a differentiation between the true Israelite and those who were only of the nation of Israel physically sounds reasonable and appear to be correct. But for one, there is no differentiation made, but a telling of who a true Jew is. So, it is not even about the Israelite, but about the Jew. Secondly, what Paul speak about in Rom. 2:28-29 is different from what he is saying in the Rom. 9 passage. In Rom.2, Paul speaks of who a true Jew is, and that in the light of circumcision, while in Rom. 9, Paul speaks of the Israelites and in connection to God's word to Abraham which Paul speaks of in Rom 9:6, which looked as though had "failed." The word of God that was in Paul's mind was evidently God's revelation of His plans for Israel in the Old Testament. This is what Paul speaks about there, which I think have Paul touch on the sovereignty of God, which is in connection to the topic of this thread discussed in the OP. Perhaps I will write about this in a separate post to contribute to the topic of the Sovereignty of God in Salvation.

Now, in going about it, Paul somehow recounts history. But obviously he was not out to teach them about history, but to point out in this part of his epistle something the Isrealites don't obviously realize with regards Israel. Paul made reference to what God said to Abraham in Genesis 21:12, about his seed or offspring to whom the promises were made, saying "In Isaac your seed shall be called." or in the version you prefer "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." Clearly, Paul did not mention Isaac as to refer to him as the seed or offspring to whom God have made the promises, but as the line of descent from where the seed or offspring will be called. This we see even clearer in that Paul did not only mention Sarah, but also Rebecca. And so, I cited Gal. 3:16, for it is here that Paul tells us who the seed or offspring is, that is, Christ, to whom the promises were made. 

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #107 on: Sun Aug 13, 2017 - 08:07:07 »

Online Michael2012

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #108 on: Sun Aug 13, 2017 - 08:49:26 »
Michael said:
Quote
And you are correct, Paul is saying that not all Israelites are God's children. He tells us who the children of God are. He explains that they are not those who are children of the flesh, that is, born naturally or natural descendants. According to Paul, the children of God are the children of the promise.
SwordMaster said:
Quote
Except for the fact that you are still reading into it that Paul speaks of us today, and not of Abraham's two boys which are the immediate context. Do you understand what happens when you take a text out of its context, Michael? That is EXACTLY what you are doing in order to support your misinterpretation of the passage in question. You are following in the footsteps of Calvin...he did the same thing, and you claim that you are not a calvinist......
Michael said:
Quote
I am not at all going out from the context. There is nothing in what I said there that is out of context. Please show me.
   

I did show you...Paul is not making a statement of how things are today in this verse, he is recounting history and nothing more. He is recounting it for a reason, but that reason has nothing to do with your assumption about what he is talking about.

No, you have not. For where have I said that Paul is making a statement of how things are today in this verse?

Quote
Michael said:
Quote
Anyway, there is nothing to say here really. For there is nothing said that refutes what I said, but only the usual unnecessary and irrelevant opinion and remark.
SwordMaster said:
Quote
Negative, Michael...it is not my opinion that you are in error here, it is a Scriptural fact. And while it does not necessarily refute what you said, it makes what you said irrelevant.

What is scriptural fact you are talking about, that I am in error? Wow. Just so you'll excuse yourself from making unnecessary and irrelevant opinion and remark. Such character really.

At least for once you admit that nothing in what you said refutes what I said. Thank you.

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #108 on: Sun Aug 13, 2017 - 08:49:26 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #109 on: Sun Aug 13, 2017 - 09:07:32 »
Barton W. Stone the Calvinist leader of the Christian Churches denied the ATONEMENT using the same words as Edwards and other Post-John Calvins.  If God hand-picked some to go to hell and some to be saved to prove that He is powerful, then you MUST deny the Atonement and that Jesus died for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD even thought very few would have any desire to obey the CONDITION Isaiah 1 and Jesus established for entering into the SCHOOL OF CHRIST since Disciples go to Bible Class (the Campbells agreed) and not "worship services" devoted to doing HARD WORK which for man is the proof that they are the CHOSEN ONES.  That condition is OBEDIENCE to the only way that one can have sins remitted and be added to the Church by Christ is to be baptized INTO Christ. That is the only way to become a SON of the true SEED and a child of God.

You can reconnect to my MONOLOGUE about Genesis 49.  The godly people should wait for SHILOH or Rest. Jacob disqualifies the LEVITES whom God would later "turn over to worship the starry hosts" Acts 7. However, the godly people of Levi would rarely if ever go to the temple in Jerusalem which God gave to the abandoned Jews because it was already set up to "worship the starry hosts."

The Covenant God in Christ made to Abraham intended that the people (Abraham was a Gens and not a Jew) be a blessing to the scattered nations.  In many cases this happened but the tribe of Levi as the PATTERN for most religious institutions by the godly people. However, Scripture records the godly SEED line which would be fulfilled in Messiah.  However, Jes

Gen. 49:8 Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise:
        thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies;
        thy father’s children shall bow down before thee.
Gen. 49:9 Judah is a lion’s whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up:
        he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion;
        who shall rouse him up?

Gen. 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah,
        nor a lawgiver from between his feet,
        until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. [Gentiles]

Shiloh is the REST which Messiah would bring when the Civil-Military-Clergy whom God abandoned to worship the starry host were put down.  Using any part of the Law of Moses or the Monarchy "given because of transgression" is part of denying ALL OF THE WORK OF JESUS CHRIST and His connection of Believeth (complieth) and is baptized shall be saved.  To say that not even God has any choice left may be a mark of lostness.

2Pet. 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy PROPHETS, and of the commandment of us the APOSTLES of the Lord and Saviour:

    Eph. 2:20 And are built upon  [EDUCATED BY]the foundation of the APOSTLES and PROPHETS,
    Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Almost no one in "christendom" will follow the pattern as the SEAL that they are saved.

2Pet. 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pet. 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep,
        all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pet. 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of,
        that by the WORD of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pet. 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pet. 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now,
         by the same word are kept in store,
         reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of UNGODLY MEN

Hebrews 4 proves that the Civil-Military-Clergy whom God abandoned to worship the starry hosts (acts7) LADED BURDENS even on the REST days:.

Heb. 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest,
        any of you should seem to come short of it.
Heb. 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them:
        but the WORD preached did not profit them,
        not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Heb. 4:3 For we which have BELIEVED do enter into rest, as he said,
        As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest:
        although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb. 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise,
        And God did REST the seventh day from all HIS WORKS
Heb. 4:5 And in this place again, IF they shall enter into my rest.
Heb. 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein,
        and they to whom it was first preached entered not in BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF:
Heb. 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David,
        To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS.
Heb. 4:8 For if Jesus [Joshua]had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb. 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb. 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath CEASED from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb. 4:11 Let us LABOR therefore to enter into that rest,
        lest any man FALL after the same example of unbelief.
Heb. 4:12 For the WORD of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword,
        piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow,
        and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart

The WORD of God is what God SPEAKS and we read or speak.  The Word,  like Light and Grace and many other qualities of God are PERSONIFIED and made Audible or Visible by Jesus Whom God made to be both Lord and Christ as His only speaker.  All of Scripture says that we have the power to hear or ignore, obey or disobey the WORD or LOGOS which in the Gospel is the POWER unto salvation to those who BELIEVE.  Of course, we know that Calvinists claim that God GIVES faith outside of the Word but John Calvin calls as FANATICAL those who hear SPIRIT outside of the WORD which Jesus said IS Spirit and Life.

IF YOU LIFT PHRASES OUT OF THE WHOLE STORY LINE YOU MAY NOT BE ONE OF THE CHOSEN FEW.

Jesus is also the AUTHORITY: Those who do not OBEY THE GOSPEL where Jesus connected baptism to salvation or the remission of sin are not subjects of FATE: Scripture says that they don't want to see the LIGHT of the Word and be cleansed by the "Washing of water INTO the Word or School of Jesus Christ."

Galatians 3 SKIPS The Book of The Law of Moses and the Laws David added to the Sacrificial system which God imposed but did not command.  Barton W. Stone also had to deny baptism until forced to: the change happened when Stone's preachers tried to get people saved as proven by something special was met face to face and mouth to mouth with the godly women in Alabama who knew the Scriptures better.
« Last Edit: Sun Aug 13, 2017 - 11:58:03 by Kenneth Sublett »

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #109 on: Sun Aug 13, 2017 - 09:07:32 »



Offline RB

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #110 on: Sun Aug 13, 2017 - 11:06:10 »
Barton W. Stone the Calvinist leader of the Christian Churches denied the ATONEMENT using the same words as Edwards and other Post-John Calvins.  If God hand-picked some to go to hell and some to be saved to prove that He is powerful, then you MUST deny the Atonement and that Jesus died for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD even thought very few would have any desire to obey the CONDITION Isaiah 1 and Jesus established for entering into the SCHOOL OF CHRIST since Disciples go to Bible Class (the Campbells agreed) and not "worship services" devoted to doing HARD WORK which for man is the proof that they are the CHOSEN ONES.  That condition is OBEDIENCE to the only way that one can have sins remitted and be added to the Church by Christ is to be baptized INTO Christ. That is the only way to become a SON of the true SEED and a child of God.
Again, as I said earlier, you are much like the street corner preacher preaching into the air. If you want someone to hear what you believe is the truth, then try to enter into serious dialogue with a REAL PERSON, instead of preaching into the air which has never been very helpful to anyone. While I may consider such people sincere, I have never seen any good coming from street preaching to coming and going traffic.

Now concerning what you said above~mocking truth with added unscriptural language, proves not one thing. But, what do we expect from "Jack-in-box" preachers? Not much.
« Last Edit: Sun Aug 13, 2017 - 11:08:24 by RB »

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #110 on: Sun Aug 13, 2017 - 11:06:10 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #111 on: Sun Aug 13, 2017 - 11:43:34 »
Thank you, thank you very much.

2Tim. 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Tim. 4:2 Preach the WORD; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Tim. 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto [Jewish] fables.

Titus 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his WORD through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
Heb. 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
1Pet. 1:25 But the WORD of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the WORD which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Is. 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
Is. 8:17 And I will wait upon the Lord, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.
Is. 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the Lord hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the Lord of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.
Is. 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
Is. 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
« Last Edit: Sun Aug 13, 2017 - 11:49:37 by Kenneth Sublett »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #112 on: Sun Aug 13, 2017 - 22:59:44 »
I tried but wasn't able to "dialog" Galatians 3:16 so I went back to the PROPHECY of Shiloh in Genesis 49 which DISQUALIFIES the Tribe of Levi as the priestly role of Jesus Who was SEED singular.  The Law of Moses and the radically changed laws of David and the Monarchy after God turned them over to worship the starry host on their way back to Babylon defines the Civil-Military-Clergy complex as the common branches of a Civil or Carnal government.

Jesus defined Holy Scripture as the Prophets and other documents which defined the New Creation by Jesus. Jesus fulfilled or certified these prophecies by signs and wonders, the Apostles were eye-- and ear-- witnesses and left US a memory. Peter outlawed private interpretation or further expounding. That left and is recorded as

Heb. 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Heb. 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb. 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb. 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Heb. 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb. 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb. 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb. 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Heb. 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

When Paul speaks of FAITH it is at time not one's personal power to save themselves by their own believing something but THE FAITH OF JESUS or SPIRIT as opposed to THE LAW and flesh or whatever it is that you impose.

Dialoging Galatians 3:16 is impossible and disrespectful if you ignore the INTENT of the Spirit of Christ.

If you say that some are predestined from eternity past so that God is no longer sovereign and you can REFUTE the Atoning Sacrifice of Christ, His shed blood and His integrity when He offered salvation to anyone qualified to confess that "Jesus is the Christ the SON of the living God." If you can do that you are not "hindered" from baptism as the ordained instrumental means to REQUEST A holy spirit or A good conscience which, according to Paul in 2 Cor 3, makes you able to HEAR the word when the command is exercised to READ the Word, or READ the word. It is clear that lots of people have no tolerance of obeying the command to PREACH the Word once each week by READING the Word for comfort and doctrine.

Gal. 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of THE LAW
        but by THE FAITH OF Jesus Christ,
        even we have believed in Jesus Christ,
        that we might be justified by THE FAITH OF CHRIST and
        not by THE WORKS OF THE LAW
        for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal. 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ,
        we ourselves also are found sinners,
        IS THEREFORE CHRIST THE MINISTER OF SIN? God forbid.
Gal. 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal. 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal. 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live;
        yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:
        and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by THE FAITH the Son of God,
        who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The PATTERN for liturgy or ceremonial legalism is built upon the foundation of the laws of the Monarchy especially the Jacob-cursed and God-Abandoned Levites. You will notice that Jesus and Paul preached the Gospel OF THE KINGDOM which is never connected to the Civil-Military-Clergy.

Jesus, Paul and everyone presumes that, contrary to DORT, the Gospel is the power to salvation and people have the rational or spiritual mind to understand and make their own decision.  I keep looking for any preconceptions that only the chosen few could hear and obey the Gospel and be added to His Church the identifying mark is that it is a School of the Word and has no other purpose or roles.

Eph. 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph. 3:4 Whereby, when YE READ, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph. 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

   



Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #113 on: Mon Aug 14, 2017 - 02:30:13 »
So in other words, if you're reading the Bible, the priests and Levites are the villains of the story.  You may not have read it that way the first time through.

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #113 on: Mon Aug 14, 2017 - 02:30:13 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #114 on: Mon Aug 14, 2017 - 08:02:19 »
God gave Israel the ten commandments and THE BOOK OF THE COVENANT based on Grace with no clergy.
Israel refused to listen to God and demanded a mediator
They rose up to PLAY in musical idolatry on the REST day.
God gave them The Book of The Law and turned them over to worship the starry host (Acts7)
God conditionally sentenced them to captivity and death.
He did not command the king, kingdom, temple, animal slaughter, priests or levites.

Isaiah 1, Jeremiah and historic scholars affirm but most of the contemporary clergy denies:

http://www.studylight.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=1sa&chapter=008

Coffman's Commentary Speaks for the total Bible view that Israel's rejection of God as King, Judge and Priest set the stage for their later repudiation of Jesus Christ in order to keep the evil Temple-System like all other nations. Remember that the clergy was still seeking a king "like the nations" and had not a hint of looking for a Spiritual King, Prince and Mediator:

The great Cambridge scholar, Henry McKeating, has the following comment on this passage from Hosea:

"Hosea is not only antagonistic to the northern kings but to the monarchy as such. The monarchy is powerless to save the nation. Israel was wrong to ask for a king. Her punishment was that she got what she asked." 7: Henry McKeating, Amos, Hosea, and Micah (Cambridge: University Press, 1971), p. 148.

Coffman: "We are aware that it is popular among many able commentators today to make apologies for Israel's monarchy and to apply what the Scriptures plainly say about it to some specific monarch, Saul, for example, as did Dummelow, or to the kings of Northern Israel as did Hailey;

but it is the conviction of this writer that
Israel was totally and completely wrong in asking a king and that this rejection of God (that is what the text calls it) contained embryonically all of the later sorrows of the Chosen People.

Throughout the whole history of Israel, there were very few monarchs who even tried to serve the Lord. Solomon was to be blamed for the division of the kingdom under his son, because the people simply rejected the excesses of Solomon; and yet, even after God took the monarchy away from them, the nation wanted nothing in heaven or on earth as much as they wanted the restoration of that scandalous Solomonic empire.

It was this, more than anything else,

that motivated their rejection of God Himself,
finally and irrevocably,
in their rejection of God's Son, Jesus Christ the Holy One.

Go down the list of Israel's kings, David, the very best of all of them, was an adulterer and a murderer; and he also corrupted the worship of God by two sinful things:

(1) his initiating the events that led to the building of the temple (the den of thieves and robbers in Jesus' times); and

(2) his introduction of instruments of music into the worship of God.
We do not have the space here to outline all of the misdeeds of Israel's shameful monarchy,

but it is clear enough that God's disapproval of the monarchy was no late thing, applicable only to the phantom kings of Ephraim's final years, but it rested upon the monarchy from the very beginning of it as outlined in this chapter.

If God had ever approved of it, He would never have taken it away from them! Nevertheless, God accommodated to the sinful conduct of His people and in many specific instances blessed the kings of Israel,

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #115 on: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 09:26:34 »
Gal. 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal. 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the HEARING of faith?

THE LAW IS CONTRASTED TO THE SPIRIT.

The SPIRIT of God is received by HEARING and believing.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the FLESH profiteth nothing: the WORDS that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are life.

Religionism is based on FLESH or the imagination of man which God says "is only evil continually." Worship is IN the spirit or mind when we give attention to THE WORD which conveys the Spirit or Mind of God.

Gal. 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the FLESH?
Gal. 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal. 3:5 He therefore that MINISTERETH to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the HEARING of faith?

Gal. 3:6 Even as Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal. 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are OF FAITH, the same are the CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM

Abraham was justified BY FAITH when He believed and OBEYED. God choose NOT TO KNOW until Abram obeyed.  We are children of Abraham through whom THE SEED would come. To be a son of Abraham we have to obey what Abraham did.

Gal. 3:8 And the scripture, FORESEEING that God would JUSTIFY the HEATHEN through faith,
         preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Faith always means to COMPLY to be honored:

pist-euō  trust, put faith in, rely on a person, thing, or statement,  COMPLY opp. apisteō, or Believeth Not or Comply Not

God does not IMPOSE FAITH

Rom. 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the WORD of God.

The PREDESTINED are not hand picked by God from eternity past but:

Gal. 3:9 So then they which be OF FAITH are blessed with faithful Abraham.
       Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham
           obeyed my voice,
           and kept my charge,
           my commandments,
           my statutes,
           and my laws.

Gal. 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal. 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal. 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal. 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Gal. 3:14 THAT the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ;
        that we might receive the promise of the Spirit [opposite THE LAW] through faith.

The SUBJECT is to debunk The Law of Moses or the laws of David and the Monarchy as related to or having any effect on the spiritual nature of mankind. And in Romans 9 this repudiates the Jews belief in PREDESTINATION because God rescued them from Egypt TO PROTECT HIS OWN NAME.

Amos 9:7 Are ye not as children of the Ethiopians unto me, O children of Israel? saith the Lord. Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? and the Philistines from Caphtor, and the Syrians from Kir?
Amos 9:8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will DESTROY it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the Lord.
         Judah would carry the SEED and not the LEVITES.
Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

Long before the Law of Moses, IMPOSED because of transgression, GOD WHO IS SPIRIT placed His blessings on ABRAHAM and Jacob EXCLUDED the tribe of Levi (your musical worship team) from being the channel through whom the SEED would come

Gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and HIS SEED the PROMISES made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of ONE, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal. 3:18 For if the INHERITANCE be of the law, it is no more of PROMISE: but God gave it to Abraham by PROMISE.

BECAUSE:
Gal. 3:9 So then they which be OF FAITH are blessed with faithful Abraham.
       Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham
           obeyed my voice,
           and kept my charge,
           my commandments,
           my statutes,
           and my laws.

Not even the levites were excluded from salvation but hose who claimed to ADORN the Temple which God did not command or the slaughter and holocaust of innocent animals and INFANTS are defined by the word ANATHEMA.  Any person or thing so DEDICATED and claiming to ADORN the Word of God cannot be redeemed and MUST BE BURNED.  Jews Lament that few if any Levites and their harps survived being cast into HELL

Long before the Law of Moses, IMPOSED because of transgression, GOD WHO IS SPIRIT placed His blessings on ABRAHAM and Jacob EXCLUDED the tribe of Levi (your musical worship team) from being the channel through whom the SEED would come

Gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and HIS SEED the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of ONE, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal. 3:18 For if the INHERITANCE be of the law, it is no more of PROMISE: but God gave it to Abraham by PROMISE.

The "Progressives" build upon the Priests and Levites to include being any more than A SCHOOL OF CHRIST.

Not even the levites were excluded from salvation but hose who claimed to ADORN the Temple which God did not command or the slaughter and holocaust of innocent animals and INFANTS are defined by the word ANATHEMA.  Any person or thing so DEDICATED and claiming to ADORN the Word of God cannot be redeemed and MUST BE BURNED.  Jews Lament that few if any Levites and their harps survived being cast into HELL
« Last Edit: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 11:20:58 by Kenneth Sublett »

Offline RB

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #116 on: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 14:46:21 »
Gal. 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? Gal. 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the HEARING of faith?
Ken, I will be more than happy to go over this chapter with you and will give you a sincere hearing, and I only ask the same in return.

Galatians is maybe the most important epistle in the NT along with Romans chapters 3-5, as far as Paul dealing with "our faith" in relation to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Without being overly tedious, I will give my understanding of Galatians three.

A few points before starting. One should be very familiar with: Genesis 12:1-9; 15:1-6; 17:23-26; 22:11-18; Romans 4:1-25; Hebrews 11:8-19; James 2:14-26.

Eternal life is not the issue here, but rather conversion to the truth of the gospel: Paul was not worried about the eternal life of these believers, but rather the correctness of their doctrine, that leads to proper love to God and our brethren, and true peace, and joy in our daily walk with God.  Now, that being said, correct doctrine is an evidence of eternal life, but understanding on our part is NOT essential to secure our right to life, that was done by the obedience of Jesus Christ. Besides, we all are on different levels of understanding, so that within itself proves that knowledge is NOT what determines who has life eternal and who does not have everlasting life.

In Galatians, the Spirit's primary intent through Paul is to explain the true gospel of Jesus Christ and to refute the works of the law done by our flesh as having any part in our justification before God.
Quote from: Kenneth Sublett
THE LAW IS CONTRASTED TO THE SPIRIT.
  I disagree. Coming back in the morning to make my next post.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #117 on: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 15:49:09 »
Quote
Now, that being said, correct doctrine is an evidence of eternal life, but understanding on our part is NOT essential to secure our right to life, that was done by the obedience of Jesus Christ.


The obedience of Christ brought Righteousness or Ceremonial purity to ALL people including swine.  However, what Jesus did was a TYPE or TUPOS which is "A pattern intended to be imitated." Calvinists say that God's decree from eternity makes the decision after which neither God nor His Son Jesus of Nazareth has any sovereignty.

They say that the DEATH of Christ has no effect; the BLOOD of Christ has no effect; obedience to that TUPOS has no effect. Paul who was guided by Jesus Christ in His Spirit life says that is BLASPHEMY because it despises the Word and therefore God:

Rom. 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom. 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Condition:
Rom. 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom. 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:
         that like as Christ was raised up from the dead
         by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Condition:
Rom. 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death,
          we shall be also in the LIKENESS of his resurrection:

Condition:
Rom. 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him,
          that the body of sin might be destroyed,
          that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Rom. 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom. 6:8 Now IF we be dead WITH Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Rom. 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom. 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Condition:
Rom. 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,
         but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Condition:
Rom. 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body,
        that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom. 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin:
         but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead,
         and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom. 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under THE LAW but under grace.
Rom. 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Absolute Condition for everyone: Jew or Gentile:
Rom. 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom YE YIELD yourselves servants to obey,
          his servants ye are to WHOM YE OBEY
          whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom. 6:17 But God be thanked,
        that ye were the servants of sin,
        but ye have OBEYED from the heart
        that form [ANTITUPOS] of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom. 6:18 Being THEN made free from sin,
        ye BECAME the servants of righteousness.

The Death, Burial and Resurrection is a FORM or TUPOS as "a pattern intended to be IMITATED"
Baptism is our ANTI-TUPOS or identifying with Christ
Only THEN are you FREE from Sin.

If you were sprinkled as an infant and CHALLENGE prophecy and fulfilment of BAPTISM as what T. Campbell called our FIRST ACT OF WORSHIP then you are STILL IN YOUR FRIEND.

You are a BELIEVETH NOT or APISTOS meaning that you REFUSE to comply and be baptized, Jesus says that you WILL BE DAMNED.



Acts 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.

Heb. 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

« Last Edit: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 17:20:41 by Kenneth Sublett »

Offline SwordMaster

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #118 on: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 22:01:58 »
Red said...

Quote
Quote from: SwordMaster on Sat Aug 12, 2017 - 12:07:58

   
Quote
But, nice calvinistic try!

I'm not going to waste very much time with you, but will say a few things before moving on. Since you continuously call me a Calvinist (which I have no problem with if names need to be given to help others know what a person's Soteriology is) then what does that make you? I think I know your answer before you speak, but please, go ahead, and do so, I'm somewhat curious.

My soteriology is strictly Scripture, not calvinism like yours...and BTW, I know that you don't claim to be a calvinist, you have loudly proclaimed yourself to be a "high" calvinist...which is what I called you. Please put your monocles on so that your reading comprehension might man up.

Quote
Quote

   
Quote
Again, there is no such thing in the Scriptures as a "covenant of grace," that is wholly calvinistic nonsense conjured up out of the minds of carnal men trying to be teachers of the Scriptures.

We have been over this a few times and we have proven that there are only TWO MAIN COVENANTS spoken of in the scriptures~the first and the second; one made with Adam based on his obedience; one made with Christ based upon his obedience.


Yes, we have gone over this again and again you act like the boy in the corner with the dunce cap on, completely ignoring what the professor has told you. There are numerous covenants in the OT and one in the NT...and not one of them are called a covenant of grace, nor a covenant of works. Again, that is false calvinistic nonsense, made up man-made covenants of Reformed Theology. But keep teaching those false things, Red...

Quote
One God did not intervene to secure Adam and his posterity a guaranteed result of success; the other, made with Christ and his seed, that was SUPPORTED by two immutable things....God's OATH and his PROMISES which we are now considering.

More false teaching. God did not make a covenant with Christ...and that is down right lunacy in the least. Since Christ is God in the flesh, what kind of maniac would He be in making a covenant with himself...your logic, and that of those whom you follow, is right out the window...again...

Quote
God's faithfulness is seen in the COVENANT with Christ and HIS SEED, which is totally of GRACE without works on the part of the seed of Christ. Grace was given to them before the world was created, meaning from eternity. See 2nd Timothy 1:9 as one of many proofs. All we need to do is finish reading David's wonderful song written exalting the GRACE of God through Christ, the second Adam.


So much error that its ridiculous, with nery a shred of evidence to back it up. God has never made a covenant with His Covenant, that is sheer nonsense. Christ is the living embodiment of the New Covenant, and that covenant is the Covenant of Reconciliation, not a covenant of grace. contrary to your warped misinterpretations of the Scriptures in hand, unless a saved, born again person is walking in obedience to God (what you call works), then that man is not going to heaven, just as the Scriptures tell us over and over again, finding complete embodiment in this verse...

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has life eternal, but whoever is not obedient to Son will not experience life; because the wrath of God remains abiding upon him.

I know that your error-ridden KJV renders obedient as believe...just one of many false translation errors of that worm of a translation. I will explain the grammar to anyone who desires to understand why the word there (apeithéō) does not mean believe according to the grammar of the text...straight out of the Complete Word Study Dictionary...

Quote
"With the dat. of person or thing, the one being disobedient to the Son (Joh_3:36)"

Quote
The New Covenant is a covenant of GRACE based upon God's faithfulness concerning his oath and promises of GRACE to our David, who slew a giant greater than Goliath who was only a pitiful type.......he slew the devil himself and spoiled his goods which belong to the seed of David of Psalm 89~ which was Jesus Christ.

Negative, Red...if you knew anything of real value, then you would know that every covenant that God has made with anyone, was a covenant originating out of His love (grace) for those whom He made covenant with. Singling out one and calling it a covenant of grace, is shear nonsense that you get by listening to those seducing spirits again. You really need to knock that stuff off...

Quote
But, what would a prophet from Mount Sinai know about these things? Not very much.  Those from Jerusalem which is ABOVE are blessed...

You would know, Red...how cold is it up there on the top of the mountain? You really need to educate yourself and come out of the back woods, step into the light of understanding rather than basking in the shadows of men who had nothing but carnal minds to write from.



Offline SwordMaster

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #119 on: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 22:33:19 »
Michael said...

Quote
Lets look at it again in a wider contextual sphere...

Romans 9:6-12
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named."
8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
9 For this is what the promise said: "About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son."
10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works out because of him who calls--
12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger."

Paul is going over history, from start to finish. He had already addressed the difference between the person (both Israelite or Gentile) that was a 'TRUE' child of God here...

Romans 2:28-29
28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical.
29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

There is absolutely NO reason for Paul to go back again in the same letter and speak about a differentiation between the true Israelite and those who were only of the nation of Israel physically. While it is an easy mistake to make, your claim is not true.


And why not? Your opinion that there is absolutely NO reason for Paul to go back again in the same letter and speak about a differentiation between the true Israelite and those who were only of the nation of Israel physically sounds reasonable and appear to be correct.


Unless you can provide a sound reason for him doing that . . .

Quote
But for one, there is no differentiation made, but a telling of who a true Jew is. So, it is not even about the Israelite, but about the Jew.

Are you listening to yourself again? YOU are the one saying that Paul is making a distinction in Romans 9 when he is not...

Quote
Secondly, what Paul speak about in Rom. 2:28-29 is different from what he is saying in the Rom. 9 passage. In Rom.2, Paul speaks of who a true Jew is, and that in the light of circumcision, while in Rom. 9, Paul speaks of the Israelites and in connection to God's word to Abraham which Paul speaks of in Rom 9:6, which looked as though had "failed." The word of God that was in Paul's mind was evidently God's revelation of His plans for Israel in the Old Testament. This is what Paul speaks about there, which I think have Paul touch on the sovereignty of God, which is in connection to the topic of this thread discussed in the OP.


You are correct here that Paul does touch on the sovereignty of God in working in people's lives as far as concerns His plans - however, you are making a leap beyond what the text allows when you postulate that Paul is attaching soteriology to the sovereignty of God. When you make such an unwarranted leap, you leap right into false doctrine.

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Perhaps I will write about this in a separate post to contribute to the topic of the Sovereignty of God in Salvation.

Sure...but you will get the same answers, because God has sovereignly chosen to allow men to pick and choose whether or not they want to spend eternity in heaven with Him. He does not do the choosing, and there is no valid evidence for such nonsense in the Scriptures.

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Now, in going about it, Paul somehow recounts history. But obviously he was not out to teach them about history, but to point out in this part of his epistle something the Isrealites don't obviously realize with regards Israel. Paul made reference to what God said to Abraham in Genesis 21:12, about his seed or offspring to whom the promises were made, saying "In Isaac your seed shall be called." or in the version you prefer "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." Clearly, Paul did not mention Isaac as to refer to him as the seed or offspring to whom God have made the promises, but as the line of descent from where the seed or offspring will be called. This we see even clearer in that Paul did not only mention Sarah, but also Rebecca. And so, I cited Gal. 3:16, for it is here that Paul tells us who the seed or offspring is, that is, Christ, to whom the promises were made.


Yes, but as I tried to tell you earlier, just because Paul speaks of the seed in two different places does NOT mean that he is speaking of the same thing in two entirely different conversations. Perhaps an example would help...Christ is the living New Covenant, so when we read in the Scriptures that redemption is found only "in Christ," the speaker is directly referencing Christ as the New Covenant through which God gives redemption to man. However, every time we read the phrase "in Christ" does NOT mean that the writer is making a direct reference to Christ as the New Covenant. For example:

Acts 24:24
After some days Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish, and he sent for Paul and heard him speak about faith in Christ Jesus.

In this text, Luke is NOT talking about Christ being the covenant...

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

In this text, Paul is making a direct reference to Christ as the living New Covenant, because in that covenant is the atonement and, thus, the ONLY way for a man to be cleansed and free from sin, taking his condemnation away.

The definition of offspring in Gal. 3:16 is NOT the same meaning Paul attaches to the meaning of the word in Rom. 9:8...I would highly suggest that you pick up a book on semantics, because not every time a word is used does it carry a strict dictionary definition of the word. People fill words with their own meaning even today when they speak...I am surprised that you do not know this. But, perhaps you do know it and are simply ignoring that fact for the sake of your misplaced argument.



Offline SwordMaster

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #120 on: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 22:41:48 »
Michael said...

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What is scriptural fact you are talking about, that I am in error?

You said...in regards to Romans 9:8...

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Michael said:
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    So, who are the children of God, then according to Paul? They are those obviously born of God, and that, in Christ.

That is your Scriptural error, because in the text under discussion Paul is NOT stating that the children of God are born of God in Christ, specifically because he is recounting history thousands of years BEFORE Christ was born and people could even get "born of God."

You are in error, whether you want to admit it or not.

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Wow. Just so you'll excuse yourself from making unnecessary and irrelevant opinion and remark. Such character really.

Again, its not opinion, it is Scriptural fact whether you like it or not. And since you don't have enough education under your belt to punch your way out of a wet paper bag, I would suggest that you listen more and stop being so argumentative, then you might learn something.



Offline RB

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #121 on: Wed Aug 16, 2017 - 03:48:27 »
Yes, we have gone over this again and again you act like the boy in the corner with the dunce cap on, completely ignoring what the professor has told you. There are numerous covenants in the OT and one in the NT...and not one of them are called a covenant of grace, nor a covenant of works. Again, that is false calvinistic nonsense, made up man-made covenants of Reformed Theology. But keep teaching those false things, Red...
WHO might this professor be? Surely not SwordMaster! For a man who makes such high claims, is truly pitiful reading your rebuttals especially to my post. Reply #106 that I posted for you, and gave you every opportunity to refute the scriptures I gave in my post to you, yet you made not one attempt to do so, but, all you had to offer was what was foaming out of your mouth using the same old rhetoric of slandering people and lifting your self up as "THE Professor" sent from heaven to teach these brainless, carnal Calvinist the truth. 

Take my scriptures given to you in reply #106, and prove my doctrine wrong by (if you can) with proper exegesis~but I will not hold my breath, for all I have seen from you is eisegesis, especially is this so, when faced with a scripture(s) that clearly reveals your position to be in error, you immediately attempt to discredit the KJV with a proud and bold spirit of claiming to know the words of the orginal, when the truth is NO ONE has ever seen the very epistles written by Paul and other holy men of old~ALL we have are translations PRESERVED by God for his children from men like you, Mr. Professor. Btw, that's all that Christ had as well, and we NEVER read that he ever made mention of the "originals" like such things as comes out of your mouth in your attack upon the holy scriptures. Christ and his apostles believe and received the TRANSLATIONS from the scribes, not because of their faithfulness, but because they TRUSTED God to preserved his word JUST AS HE GAVE IT to Moses and other holy men of old. I'll follow Christ and his apostles, not proud "professors wanna be"!

Deal with my post, and if you cannot, then be man enough and say so. Btw, your silence is speaking for you if you refuse to address Hebrews 6; Psalm 89, etc. 
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 16, 2017 - 03:58:56 by RB »

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #122 on: Wed Aug 16, 2017 - 04:09:08 »
The obedience of Christ brought Righteousness or Ceremonial purity to ALL people including swine.  However, what Jesus did was a TYPE or TUPOS which is "A pattern intended to be imitated." Calvinists say that God's decree from eternity makes the decision after which neither God nor His Son Jesus of Nazareth has any sovereignty.

They say that the DEATH of Christ has no effect; the BLOOD of Christ has no effect; obedience to that TUPOS has no effect. Paul who was guided by Jesus Christ in His Spirit life says that is BLASPHEMY because it despises the Word and therefore God:
Hold on, I thought we were going to consider Galatians three? I do not want to jump all over the place and end up accomplishing nothing. So, please, let us deal with Galatians three. What I highlighted in red shows me that you are not an experienced debater and also, you embrace some very strange ideas concerning Christ and his gospel.

Offline RB

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #123 on: Wed Aug 16, 2017 - 05:07:24 »
Quote from: Paul, the apostle unto the churches of Galatia
Galatians 1:1,2~"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"
Paul called these believers at Galatia, foolish, and went even as far and told them that they had been bewitched! Christ called those sorrowful believers in Luke 24:25,26~fools and slow of hearts. There's nothing sinful about calling a brethren a fool and slow of heart when our purpose is their profit in truth. Paul did so to church members at Corinth to get their attention by a rebuke (Ist Corinthians 15:36). To leave Jesus Christ’s pure gospel as taught by the greatest apostle is truly very foolish.  Railing, or name-calling, in order to defame or harm another person is verbal murder! See Matthew 5:21,22

"who hath bewitched you"~Paul identified seducing teachers, who had taken them away from continuing in the truth. He implies that they used the bewitching use of magical arts. This is all false prophets have to offer~truth and sound reason saves us from them. There are many ways that false prophets use to bewitch men/women. Remember what Absalom did?
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2nd Samuel 15:4-6~"Absalom said moreover, Oh that I were made judge in the land, that every man which hath any suit or cause might come unto me, and I would do him justice! And it was so, that when any man came nigh to him to do him obeisance, he put forth his hand, and took him, and kissed him. And on this manner did Absalom to all Israel that came to the king for judgment: so Absalom stole the hearts of the men of Israel."
False prophets use many different evil means to steal the hearts of men and women. They make you seem to be very IMPORTANT. They "excessively" praise you in your presence. It all about YOU and not them UNTIL they steal your heart, THEN it is ALL about THEM, and not you!

How to Win Friends & Influence People by Dale Carnegie is truly their bible that they worship make no mistake about it! When anyone"excessively" praise you, then BEWARE, they are spreading a net for your feet to be used for THEIR PROFIT. They say nice things, things we WANT TO HEAR, not what we NEED to hear. Read Proverbs. None of us are above of being bewitched by evil seducers. True followers of Christ can never compromise on the gospel taught by Paul in Galatians to attract the unregenerate and to build mega churches through a bewitching spirit. 
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 16, 2017 - 05:18:11 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #124 on: Wed Aug 16, 2017 - 07:18:46 »
In Galatians, the Spirit's primary intent through Paul is to explain the true gospel of Jesus Christ and to refute the works of the law done by our flesh as having any part in our justification before God.

That may well be true and I have no reason to doubt your assessment of the primary intent of Paul's letter to the Galatians.  The problem here and elsewhere is in your understanding, rather misunderstanding, of what constitutes works of the law.  Hearing, believing, repenting and being baptized, the stated conditions for being saved, are not works of the law. Such conditions placed upon becoming saved do not conflict with Paul's statement of salvation by grace through faith and not as a result of works.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #125 on: Wed Aug 16, 2017 - 10:56:20 »
Gal. 3:18 For if the INHERITANCE be of the law, it is no more of promise:
         but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal. 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions,
        till the SEED should come to whom the promise was made;
        and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal. 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

God did not "sentence" people to heaven or hell before the Law of Moses. All that He wants of people is that they believe in Him and not sticks and rocks and that they practice justice with others.  However, the meaning of IS IS as many have noted is that the role of a Messiah to supercede the Prophets will be the SEED (sperm) of Abraham and others THROUGH men God has the right to HAND PICK.  The Hebrews and specifically the Jews were not UNIQUE and PREDESTINED:

Amos 9:6 It is he that buildeth his stories in the heaven, and hath founded his troop in the earth; he that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The Lord is his name.
Amos 9:7 Are ye not as children of the Ethiopians unto me, O children of Israel? saith the Lord. Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? and the Philistines from Caphtor, and the Syrians from Kir?
Amos 9:8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the Lord.

As prophesied in Genesis 49 JUDAH would supply the SEED and as the ANTI-Levite High Priest.

God saved Israel by Grace at Mount Sinai when they stopped whining and were buried in a type of baptism.

The Book of the Covenant was offered to the Hebrews.  This covenant was Abrahamic because it had no priesthood and the tenets were conditional: IF you make a sacrifice do not make an an altar and so on.

While Moses was on the Mount getting the written Covenant, the people fell back to their Egyptian worship.
God conditionally sentenced them to captivity and death and gave The Law of Moses to Legislate  for the national system now abandoned to worship the HOST of Heaven instead of the Creator of the Hosts.
The godly people assembled even in the wilderness to hear the Word PREACHED by being READ.

Gal. 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid:
        for if there had been a law given which could have given life,
        verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal. 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin,
        THAT the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that BELIEVE.

Notice that FAITH or THE FAITH is in contrast to THE LAW

Gal. 3:23 But before FAITH came, we were kept under the LAW,
        shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal. 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ,
        that we might be JUSTIFIED by faith.
Gal. 3:25 But after that FAITH is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Everyone is "justified" in the sense that they are of the UNWASHED and unfit for baptism without first becoming a Jew. However, the UNGRACEFUL cannot be saved unless they OBEY the only thing Jesus commanded to REQUEST A holy spirit or A good conscience. BAPTISM NOW SAVES those who SIGN UP or enlist in the School of Christ.

Now, read carefully and do not just read 3:26. My thesis is that those who do not LOVE God and His Word will be strongly deluded and will not be able to digest the second part of the PARALLELISM.

Also note that in He that BELIEVETH and is BAPTIZED shall be saved, the word PISTOS includes the idea of trust means that you COMPLY with what you believe.

Gal. 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith IN Christ Jesus.

Gal. 3:27 FOR
        as many of you as have been
        baptized INTO Christ have put ON Christ.

Those who have not been baptized into Christ have not been CLOTHED with Christ. We have no right to go boldly before the throne of Grace unless were are hidden in Christ as a garment.  Those who claim to get you aroused and "lead you into the presence of God" and REFUTE the instrumental means of Christ will get you executed for your presumption.  The Word FOR is

FOR is Enim    I. To corroborate a preceding assertion, like equidem, certe, vero; hence freq. connected with these particles, esp. with vero (v. under B.), truly, certainly, to be sure, indeed, in fact:
B. Strengthened by vero, and combined with it into one word, ĕnimvēro (unlike enim, usually beginning the sentence), yes indeed, yes truly, of a truth, to be sure, certainly, indeed: “
II. A. To prove or show the grounds of a preceding assertion,
B. To explain a preceding assertion, for instance, namely:

Gar introducing the reason or cause of what precedes, for, req. in expl. of that wh. is implied in the preceding clause
c. to introduce a detailed description or narration already alluded to, to confirm or strengthen something said,

Gal. 3:27 (What I mean to say is)
        as many of you as have been
        baptized INTO Christ have put ON Christ.

Believing that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God allows anyone to be BAPTIZED INTO Christ.  I worry a lot about people who say that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ nor baptism has ANY BEARING to change God's PREDESTINED PICK which neither He nor Jesus can exercise sovereignty over.

We are saved by FAITH contrasted to LAW WHEN we are baptized INTO Christ

27 hosoi gar eis Khriston ebaptisthēte, Khriston enedusasthe:

enduō or endunō  1. of clothes, put on, “endune khitōna”
enduesthai assume the person of T., D.H. 11.5; “ton kainon anthrōpon” Ep.Eph. 4.24:—Pass., to be clothed in, have on, “esthēta endedusthai     psukhais tōn akouontōn insinuate oneself into their minds,

indŭo  be covered with, adorned with; . clothed with the forms of,

    Eph. 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
    Eph. 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
    Eph. 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
    Eph. 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
    Eph. 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

Offline RB

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #126 on: Thu Aug 17, 2017 - 05:02:18 »
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Galatians 3:3~"Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"
Returning to the charge of foolishness (3:1), Paul's tender rebuke toward them for leaving their first faith. How did the life of faith begin? In and by the Spirit of God. We were born of God apart from any works of the flesh on our part. Our life as a believer was a gift freely given, for we were dead in trespasses and sins. So many scriptures have been provided by us many times over concerning this truth. See John 1:13; John 3:1-8; Ephesians 1:19-2:1; Romans 8:5-8; 1st Corinthians 2:14-16; etc. Those in the churches of Galatia began with promised spiritual blessings in the gospel on the behalf of Christ, and now they pursued fleshly rituals to be made perfect! How foolish is that?
 
Paul's argument is since you got started in great spiritual blessings through the Spirit, will you turn now to the flesh and began to boast? If, so, then you are so foolish!

Paul's argument is since you got started in great blessings through the Spirit, will the flesh lift you higher? If you believe this...then you are so foolish. What did the flesh do for you BEFORE you were born of God by his Spirit? NOT ONE THING but helped you to be at enmity against God!

Paul's argument should cause them to ask themselves this question: How could the glorious and superior gospel of Christ be improved by the inferior Law that man must do this or that BEFORE he's is accepted by God.

Their conversion had resulted in great blessings by the Spirit, through the system of FAITH...but now they were in the flesh seeking to improve on Jesus' work of redemption for his seed.

The gift of the Spirit was based on spiritual faith to believe in Jesus Christ (John 7:39). The Galatians had believed and obeyed the spiritual religion of Jesus Christ, but now they had added works of the flesh apart from the Spirit of Christ, in order to improve further. This is the area that Paul was laboring to correct.

The works of the Law did not involve the Spirit; they were flesh actions done outwardly. They thought to improve on Jesus Christ by circumcision and avoiding MEAT LOVER'S pizza!

Paul called the Law of Moses and its commandments weak and unprofitable (Hebrews 7:18), carnal ordinances (Hebrews 9:10), rudiments of the world (Colossians 2:8,20), and beggarly elements in this very epistle (Gaatians 4:9).  The VERY reason why God sent his Son into the world!
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Romans 8:1-4~"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Could not be clearer said by anyone, except he who speaks under the guidance and teaching of the Spirit of God, as Paul did.

Verse four later.....
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 17, 2017 - 05:16:40 by RB »

Online Michael2012

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #127 on: Thu Aug 17, 2017 - 06:44:21 »
Rom. 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

Let's take in focus Rom. 9:8.

"children of the flesh" ~ what does Paul mean by this here?

Paul meant by this as those having been born by the will of man, of the seed of man.

"children of God" ~ what does Paul mean by this here?

Paul meant by this as to refer to Israel, his people, his children.

"children of the promise" ~ what does Paul mean by this here?

Paul meant by this as to refer to those who are born not of the flesh as those born of the will of man. And if not of the flesh, then born of the Spirit, and that by the WILL of God.

"counted as the seed" ~ what does Paul mean by this phrase mean?

Paul meant by this as to be counted and regarded as Abraham’s descendants.

So, in the passage, Paul was speaking about who are Israel, the children of God. He tells us that they are not necessarily those who are of the natural seed of Abraham, but those in relation to Abraham's son Isaac, whom God have promised him. Is Paul then referring to all those who are naturally descended of Isaac as being those who are the children of God? No. For if that were so, then it defeats what Paul have just revealed, that it isn’t the natural children who are God’s children. Further, this is evident and is made clear, in that, in verses 10-13, after Paul pointed to Isaac, he said:

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

We can see by this that, Jacob was elected and Esau was not. Now we know that it was Jacob that was then came to be called by God as Israel, and obviously then, with this alone, the descendants of Isaac through Esau are not Israel, as such are not the children of God and not counted as the seed or offspring of Abraham. So, we can see that, it is ever so emphasized that the children of God are not reckoned by natural physical descent, not even, through Isaac. So, who are the children of God, if they are not those who are natural and physical descendants of Abraham? Paul does not tell us here in Rom.9, but tells us elsewhere. Though here, Paul speaks of "the children of the promise" as the descendants of Abraham who are the children of God.

Now, we know that, to the children of God were the promises made. How God made the promises to them, Paul tells us in the following scriptures:

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.

God made the promises to the children of God, that is, to Abraham and to his seed, which Paul identified to be, not Isaac, but Christ. So, the first marker of the children of God is that they are of the line of Abraham, through Isaac, and through Israel (Jacob), from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came. Even then, it is not all of them, but only the elect ~ those who are of faith, as Abraham their father, is. And the other marker is that they are in Christ, that is, related to Christ ~ are brethren in Christ ~ according to the Spirit. So that, those who are in Christ, are children of God, whether born naturally a Gentile or are natural descendants of Abraham. All are brethren and brethren of Christ, according to the Spirit, and are all equally children of God, having been predestined to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ. This is the true Israel, the children of God.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #128 on: Thu Aug 17, 2017 - 08:28:08 »
All good points. Romans has been mentioned and it is pretty easy to see what the meaning of IS IS.

Rom. 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man SIN entered into the WORLD,
        and death by sin; and so DEATH passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

All people DIE because all people SIN because SIN personified as the Serpent was invited in. People sin when they are tempted: God does not tempt people but the Devil does.

Rom. 5:13 (For until the law SIN was in the WORLD: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom. 5:14 Nevertheless DEATH reigned from Adam to Moses,
        even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression,
        who is the figure of him that was to come.

Everyone sins IN A SIMILAR fashion of Adam: they do not inherit their sin from Mother Eve.

g3667.  homoioma, hom-oy´-o-mah; from 3666; a form; abstractly, resemblance: — made like to, likeness, shape, similitude.
g3666. homoioo, hom-oy-o´-o; from 3664; to assimilate, i.e. compare; passively, to become similar: — be (make) like, (in the) liken(-ess), resemble

The PENALTY promised by God was DEATH and not to carry a virus more deadly than HIV. ALL Calvinists experience DEATH because all Calvinists SIN.  However, the Gift of receiving A holy spirit which is translated into the heavenly kingdom is LIFE.

Rom. 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift.
        For if through the offence of one many be DEAD,
        much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace,
        which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto MANY.

Rom. 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift:
        for the judgment was by one to condemnation,
        but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom. 5:17 For if by one man’s offence DEATH reigned by one;
        much more they which receive abundance of grace
        and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in LIFE by one, Jesus Christ.)

Rom. 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom. 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom. 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his DEATH?
Rom. 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of LIFE.

Our bodies will die because  WE all sin on our own but LIFE is available only to those who obey the condition which can only be defined by the SEED as the first born from the dead:

1Cor. 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
1Cor. 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Cor. 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Cor. 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Cor. 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Cor. 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
1Cor. 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

We who are dead in an eternal sense must DIE with Jesus Who was declared the Son of God after He obeyed and was baptized even though He was not a sinner.

When we are baptized as a REQUEST for A holy spirit and LIFE we go down, like Jesus, but are revived and RISE to carry on a NEW LIFE.

We still sin and therefore Die but we do not die spiritually.  I am shopping for cemetery real estate because my body will soon need a safe place.

Offline 4WD

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #129 on: Thu Aug 17, 2017 - 08:42:43 »
Sublett,
The death that comes due to sin is spiritual death, not physical death.  Jesus did not come to save us from physical death; rather he came to save us from spiritual death which if left uncured ends in eternal death, i.e., damnation.

Eph 2:1  And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2  in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
Eph 2:3  Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Eph 2:4  But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5  even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6  and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Offline RB

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #130 on: Thu Aug 17, 2017 - 08:48:16 »
Romans has been mentioned and it is pretty easy to see what the meaning of IS
Greetings Ken, it's only clear to whom God has given light and understanding too. My oh my, you are all over the place, much like an untrained dog without a collar!  If I try to deal with all of your strange beliefs, then I would never get very much accomplished.  So, I will forbear to do so~not because I cannot, but it's no use trying. I will still finish Galatians three with, or without you.

Offline 4WD

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #131 on: Thu Aug 17, 2017 - 08:52:09 »
Returning to the charge of foolishness (3:1), Paul's tender rebuke toward them for leaving their first faith. How did the life of faith begin? In and by the Spirit of God. We were born of God apart from any works of the flesh on our part.

The Bible never says that we were born of God apart from any works of the flesh on our part.  You just made that up.  What the Bible says is apart from works of the law.  And unless and until you understand the difference, you will be wrong in your beliefs in the arena.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #132 on: Thu Aug 17, 2017 - 09:39:13 »
Quote
Eph 2:1  And you were dead IN YOUR trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2  in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

Good quote: People preach salvation by grace (alone) by faith (alone) but no level of scholarship ever lets them ask "SAVED FROM WHAT?"

I was quoting Romans to show that people died but not because of Adam's sin.
There was no law so there was no spiritual penalty before Moses. 
They did not die physically or literally because of Adam's sin which they say infects the eggs of EVE if you had sex without intending to GENERATE [Augustine].

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #133 on: Thu Aug 17, 2017 - 10:05:47 »
While I was trying to take a nap, this came to my mind: maybe it fits. Paul may not be speaking of himself but the nature of liberty in God before the fatal, without redemption fall at Mount Sinai.  This was a rejection of The Book of The Covenant of Grace so that God gave them THE BOOK OF THE LAW to prove that the Hebrews were not God's only people just because He rescued them from Egypt to protect His own name when they deserved to remain in Egypt (sin).

Rom. 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom. 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom. 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I DIED.
Rom. 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom. 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Many terms such as DEATH were personified in the minds of the superstitious. Heaven and Earth are god and goddes.

Is. 28:14 ¶Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
Is. 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Is. 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Is. 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
Is. 28:18 And your covenant with DEATH shall be disannulled, and your agreement with HELL shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
Is. 28:19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.


Is. 28:22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord God of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.

I resist speaking about music in that text: Paul quoted Isaiah 28 to identify those who were speaking in foreign dialects when no one could understand them. That doesn't stop politicians.







« Last Edit: Thu Aug 17, 2017 - 10:12:27 by Kenneth Sublett »

Offline 4WD

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #134 on: Thu Aug 17, 2017 - 10:10:02 »
Good quote: People preach salvation by grace (alone) by faith (alone) but no level of scholarship ever lets them ask "SAVED FROM WHAT?"

I was quoting Romans to show that people died but not because of Adam's sin.
There was no law so there was no spiritual penalty before Moses. 
They did not die physically or literally because of Adam's sin which they say infects the eggs of EVE if you had sex without intending to GENERATE [Augustine].

And we do not die literally or physically because of our sin.  We die spiritually because of our sin.

And your comment about there being not spiritual penalty before Moses is incorrect.  There was law even if it was not the Law of Moses.  That is the whole point of much of Chapters 1-3 of Paul's letter to the Romans.  They did not have The Law but they had a law.

Rom 2:14  For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

You need to look further into the question of what Paul means when he says, "Where there is no law, sin is not imputed". 

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #135 on: Thu Aug 17, 2017 - 10:15:07 »
Repeat:
Rom. 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom. 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom. 7:9 For I was ALIVE without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I DIED.
Rom. 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom. 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Sin was not imputed before the Law so people were ALIVE and did not die spiritual. Many of them lived hundreds of years and were righteous: they  were not SAVED because they were not LOST. The Subject of Paul is The Law of Moses which the Jews thought made them superior.   

In Genesis 49 the godly people were warned NOT to enter into covenant with Levi nor to attend their "synagogues." I just don't know of a person who is spiritual dead and DISABLED but they were UNRIGHTEOUS and RIGHTEOUS based on their own conduct

I am trying to think of anyone who was DISABLED from doing righteous deeds
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 17, 2017 - 10:24:45 by Kenneth Sublett »

Online Michael2012

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #136 on: Thu Aug 17, 2017 - 11:06:09 »
Rom. 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

After telling us of the Israelites, that is, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises, Paul in Rom. 9:6, speaks of God's word to Abraham concerning Israel. The word of God that was in Paul's mind was evidently God's revelation of His plans for Israel in the Old Testament, that is, God had chosen Israel to be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. They were to function as priests, and bring the nations to God. They were to do this by demonstrating to them through their life, how glorious it is to live under the government of God. We know what Israel had done. They have been disobedient and consequently had suffered God's discipline. And so, it looked as though the word that God had spoken concerning Israel's purpose had failed.

Now, in vv. 6-9, Paul tells and shows us that God's election of Israel did not depend on natural descent. He have shown this, by pointing out who are the true descendants of Abraham, that is the Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises. That they are those who are the children of the promise and not those who are children of the flesh, that is, natural physical descendants of Abraham. By "children of the promise", Paul meant by this as to refer to those who are born not of the flesh, as those born of the will of man, as Isaac was not, so Paul reminded us of the word of the promise concerning Isaac. And if not of the flesh, then born of the Spirit, and that by the sovereign WILL of God.

Rom. 9:10-13
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

We can see by this that God's election of Israel also does not depend even on the works the individuals have done or in other words, on human merit. Jacob was elected by God over Esau, at a time even before the two were born and have done any good or evil works. So, Paul have shown here that God's election depends on God's sovereign will and purpose, and not on works of the person. By this, Paul also implies then that God's foreknowledge of the works of each of them, has nothing to do with God's election of Jacob over Esau.

Rom. 9:14-18
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Paul proceeds to explain that, there is no unrighteousness with God in His election based solely on His Sovereignty according to His will in carrying out His determined purposes. He does so in vv. 15-18, reminding us of the very words which God said to Moses, that is, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion", which expresses the absolute sovereignty of God, in carrying out His determined purposes. As in Pharaoh, God raises up people by His sovereign will to carry out His purposes. And Paul said there is no unrighteousness with that of God.

And to whoever will say "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”

Here's what Paul have to say to them.

Rom. 9:20-21
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

So, Paul, by all of this, tells us that Israel's disobedience cannot nullify God's determined purpose for the nation. God's determined purpose for Israel stands and He will carry it out, according to His sovereign will, purpose and time. 

And so, in the words of Paul, "all Israel will be saved"

Offline 4WD

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #137 on: Thu Aug 17, 2017 - 12:12:08 »
Repeat:
Rom. 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom. 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom. 7:9 For I was ALIVE without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I DIED.
Rom. 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom. 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Sin was not imputed before the Law so people were ALIVE and did not die spiritual. Many of them lived hundreds of years and were righteous: they  were not SAVED because they were not LOST. The Subject of Paul is The Law of Moses which the Jews thought made them superior.   

In Genesis 49 the godly people were warned NOT to enter into covenant with Levi nor to attend their "synagogues." I just don't know of a person who is spiritual dead and DISABLED but they were UNRIGHTEOUS and RIGHTEOUS based on their own conduct

I am trying to think of anyone who was DISABLED from doing righteous deeds

Paul said, speaking of himself, "For I was ALIVE without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I DIED..  Think about it. Now just how could that be?  When was he ever alive without the law? 

And for what it is worth, I prefer a little different translation;  Rom 7:9  I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died .

But the question remains,  How could that be?  The typical answer is that he wasn't really speaking about himself personally, but that is wrong.  I was speaking about himself.  So then, if that is the case, what in the world was he talking about?

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #138 on: Thu Aug 17, 2017 - 13:01:32 »
That's what I said: Paul was refuting the Jews:

Sin was not imputed BEFORE the Law so people were ALIVE and did not die spiritual. Many of them lived hundreds of years and were righteous: they  were not SAVED because they were not LOST. The Subject of Paul is The Law of Moses which the Jews thought made them superior.   

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Re: God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men
« Reply #139 on: Thu Aug 17, 2017 - 13:54:01 »
That's what I said: Paul was refuting the Jews:

Sin was not imputed BEFORE the Law so people were ALIVE and did not die spiritual. Many of them lived hundreds of years and were righteous: they  were not SAVED because they were not LOST. The Subject of Paul is The Law of Moses which the Jews thought made them superior.   

Nah, Paul was talking about himself before he was old enough to understand the Law and the consequences of the Law.  Up until that time for Paul there was no law and no sin was imputed.  Paul had not yet committed any sin and so was not yet dead in his trespasses and sins.

 

     
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