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idiglove

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God or money?
« on: May 21, 2009, 06:58:30 AM »
God or Money? ::eek::

--A Bible Study ::preachit::

(1982)

Jesus said we must become like little children to enter his kingdom. (Luke 18:16-17) We need the kind of faith that little children have in their parents to meet all their needs.

We have found that it works. Our heavenly Father is more than able to take care of our needs if we will spend our lives working for him.

Everyone in the world worries about how they're going to feed and clothe themselves. But Jesus said what makes his followers unique from all other religions is that we do not worry about these things. Instead, we work to build God's kingdom, and trust God to care for our material needs. (Matthew 6:19-34) Jesus commands his followers not to work for the food that perishes (John 6:27), but to take his yoke and work for him instead. (Matthew 11:29-30)

Jesus called some fishermen to follow him and their immediate response was to quit their business in order to do so. (Matthew 4:18-22) He called a tax collector to follow him and his immediate response was to leave his job to follow Christ. (Luke 5:27-28) A rich young ruler wanted to follow Jesus and Jesus said for him to sell everything that he owned and give the proceeds to the poor, and then come and follow him. (Luke 18:22-25) A multitude came to Jesus and he said to them that unless they forsook everything that they owned, they could not be his disciples. (Luke 14:25, 33) To all of his followers Jesus said, "Birds don't have jobs and flowers don't weave cloth, yet God feeds and clothes them. So stop working for money and start working for God. Sell what you have and give to the poor; for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." (Luke 12:22-34) To the religious leaders of his day, Jesus said, "Give everything you have to the poor, and everything else will be clean for you." (Luke 11:41)

Jesus did not say that the choice was between working for God or working for the devil. He said it was between working for God or working for money. He says that, in our attempts to serve one "master" we are going to end up cheating the other. He says we will either learn to despise God or to despise money. (Luke 16:13-15) Which one do you despise?

Saint Paul said the love of money is the root of all evil. (I Timothy 6:10) He said we should stay away from people of "corrupt minds" who teach that wealth is a sign of God's blessing. (I Timothy 6:5)

Obviously God does bless some people with wealth. But we cannot say that our wealth is a gift from God if we have sold our souls (lives) to employers in order to obtain it. And when wealth truly comes to us as a gift from God, it comes for the express purpose of helping others... not so that we can spend it on luxuries for ourselves while much of the world goes to bed hungry each night.

Jesus said, "Woe to you who are rich, for you have received your comforts! Woe to you who are full, for you shall hunger!" (Luke 6:24-25) These are sobering words for those of us who are overweight while the rest of the world suffers from malnutrition.

Saint James said, "Hasn't God chosen the poor of this world, who are rich in faith, to inherit his kingdom? Yet you despise the poor. Don't the rich oppress true Christians and have them arrested for speaking the truth? Don't they blaspheme the name by which you have been called?" (James 2:5-7)

To the rich he says, "Weep and howl, you rich people, for the miseries that shall come upon you. Your riches rot in your fridges, rust in your garages, and collect moths in your closets while you exploit underpaid Third World labour to get it. It will all be a testimony against you in the last days." (James 5:1-6 paraphrased)

There was a dramatic difference between what Jesus taught about money and what the Old Testament taught. Jews gave 10% of their money and 1/7 of their time to God and more or less kept the rest for themselves. But Jesus taught 100% living by faith (i.e. forsaking all and living and witnessing together seven days a week), and that is what made the early church so powerful. (See Acts 2:44-45 and Acts 4:32-35.)

If you're going to follow Jesus at all, why not do it with your whole heart? Why not become like little children living in total dependence on God for your daily bread?

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God or money?
« on: May 21, 2009, 06:58:30 AM »

Offline gospel

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2009, 05:19:21 PM »
If you're going to follow Jesus at all, why not do it with your whole heart? Why not become like little children living in total dependence on God for your daily bread?

Sounds like what I did when I was homeless....the only thing is, God used the Salvation Army, the Lutherans,  Loaves and Fishes run by the Catholics, the Methodists, the Seventh Day Adventists and Church on the Way in Van Nuys California to feed me and give me free clothes.

When I was hungry and needed clothes all I had to do is know where to be and what time.

God really took care of me through those people.

Besides them, God made sure that a couple of Mexican restaurants would give me a buritto or a taco now and then, some donut shops would give me the day's left overs and some pizza shops would give me the mistakes and the orders people didn't pick up.

Aside from them when I would stand in front of Blockbusters and panhandle God would touch some other people to give me change or by me a Big Mac

....is that what you mean?

Otherwise I don't understand what you're talking about in practical sense.

Are you talking about manna from heaven and the quail God sent in the wilderness?

Please explain, cause one thing is for sure, when I look back over the goodness of God in my life, the best thing that God ever gave me was His Grace and Love, Hope through Salvation which led to me having a sound mind so I get a job. Now I can feed myself, take care of my family and help others whenever possible the same way God touched people to help me
 ::pondering::

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2009, 05:19:21 PM »

idiglove

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2009, 10:47:47 AM »
Just out of curiosity "gospel", what were you doing during the time you were homeless? Were you able to reach out in any way to others to try and advance God's government (the kingdom of God)?

If not, then I would have to agree that you may have just been a bit of a lazy sponge, taking without giving anything back, which I certainly would NOT advocate.

However, if you were able to help out, even in some small way, then sure, God could have used many more like you, for "the harvest is plentiful but the laborers are few".

That statement seems like a bit of a challenge for us to spend more time finding ways to build the world that Jesus spoke of rather than what many profess to be "called" to, which is usually the workforce.

Does anybody else find it strange how so few are "called" into the ministry, yet proportionally so many (the broad way?) are "called" into anything BUT the ministry?

And how do we suppose Jesus sees this "calling" when He already specifically called us to go out and preach HIS good news (contained in HIS TEACHINGS) in all the world?

"Well did Isaiah prophecy of these people..."

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2009, 10:47:47 AM »

Offline gospel

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2009, 11:35:51 AM »
Quote
Just out of curiosity "gospel", what were you doing during the time you were homeless? Were you able to reach out in any way to others to try and advance God's government (the kingdom of God)?

If you've read some of my other posts you might see that the insinuation I'm trying to make is, as a general rule ....

....people God can use are not homeless, hungry panhandlers. They generally don't make good laborers. Jesus and His Disciples were not poor homeless people, they were people that put basically but all their available resources into the ministry and dedicated themselves to sustaining the ministry in that manner.

Bottom line many of them left businesses and having done so initially had resources to invest and to sustain themselves and the ministry...hence a treasury and a treasurer
 
Your run of the mill homeless person like I was lacked characteristics necessary to witness for Christ like "being faithful in least" and diligence for instance just 2 aspects of God's character and Fruit of the Spirit that come to mind. 

In 6 years of panhandling, washing car windows, flopping around..... I can honestly say that me and almost every person in my circumstance that I associated with were that way because we were not saved and didn't know Christ.
 
To the contrary most of us, almost all of us were in those situations because of drugs,  alcohol and in some cases heartache and morbid grief from the lost of a loved one or the heartache of a broken marriage or a broken home.

Most of us believed in God in a superficial manner but not were not members of a church before or during homelessness, most believed in the bible but did not really know it at all.

Rescue Missions are great places that help to turn many wayward lives such as these around.
   

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2009, 11:35:51 AM »

idiglove

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2009, 10:51:43 AM »
While I would agree with your statement that

Quote
Your run of the mill homeless person like I was lacked characteristics necessary to witness for Christ like "being faithful in least" and diligence for instance just 2 aspects of God's character and Fruit of the Spirit that come to mind
,

It seems pretty obvious that I've not been referring to becoming a "run of the mill homeless person". I would also consider many of these people (typically from Western countries) to be unfit in their current conditions.

I spend most of my days witnessing on the streets, (most often with biblical literature, sharing with those who want to talk) and would agree that Western homelessness usually revolves around drug and alcohol abuse, which is unfortunate, and I'm glad to see some of them getting off these substances.

But I still disagree that what these people need more than anything is just a "good job". I find it funny that joining the world and its workforce is often presented as the end all, be all when it comes to helping folks in these situations. We just end up building this system (the world) INSTEAD of God's system (or Kingdom of Heaven).



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Re: God or money?
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2009, 10:51:43 AM »



Offline gospel

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2009, 12:33:46 PM »
Quote
But I still disagree that what these people need more than anything is just a "good job". I find it funny that joining the world and its workforce is often presented as the end all, be all when it comes to helping folks in these situations. We just end up building this system (the world) INSTEAD of God's system (or Kingdom of Heaven).

We live on earth.

We have a human body...an earth suit

Enterprise and industriousness ( work) are part of our earthly activity and endeavor


We are also spiritual beings

We inhabit our bodies. We cannot be all one and deny the other, for God has intentionally made us to be both.

The Kingdom of God is within us

People won't be saying, 'Look! Here it is!' or 'There it is!' because now the kingdom of God is among you."  Luke 17:21

You may have a farm or work in a mill. You may be a school teacher, a builder or a doctor.

You may be an engineer, a carpenter or a mason. You may be skilled in any number of areas

However it is......   

The way we live, glorify God, witness for Him and outwardly express His presence, these are the ways we manifest His kingdom and occupy until His return.

As a rule not working usually renders one with no means or resources and therefore ineffective in manifesting the glory of God because all of one's time is spent in meeting the essential needs of eating and having a place to sleep.

Therefore living a life of lack actually consumes more of ones time and takes away from the time one would otherwise spend in study, in ministry, in prayer and being an effective witness.
Hence it is the availability of resources that make it possible to manifest the Kingdom and not the lack thereof.

If you were street witnessing you could afford to because your basic needs were met. if not by your hand then by the hands of others who could used to support you in your work.

No matter how you slice it...... your food, clothing and shelter are/were the result of someone's work and finances, either yours or someone elses albeit by the Grace of God to Him be all the glory!!


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Re: God or money?
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2009, 12:33:46 PM »

idiglove

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2009, 11:47:20 AM »
Hi G,

I know we've decided to agree to disagree over on the thread "Why do we work for money?", but just for the sake of others reading this thread (and that one), I wanted to remind people that I am strongly advocating that people work, but just not let money be their motivation.

This is in response to this statement from you:

Quote from: g
As a rule not working usually renders one with no means or resources and therefore ineffective in manifesting the glory of God because all of one's time is spent in meeting the essential needs of eating and having a place to sleep.

If you and others can accept this much, then we may gain some headway into more constructive dialogue.


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Re: God or money?
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2009, 04:09:27 PM »
Not sure where that passage is that says for us to quit our jobs and mooch off of people. And the Bible says God BLESSED Solomon with great wealth. The Bible says that the LOVE of money is the root of all evil. Not having it, working for it, using it wisely or enjoying it.

Sure, we should help others, that's a no brainer. But that's just one of the things that money can be used for that's not "evil." I plan on taking my wife to the beach at some point this summer with the money I've worked day and night to earn.

Money is simply what we trade our work for. So basically, I'm working 7 days a week to take my wife to the beach. Money is simply the result of work. Is work evil? Should we be asking if we should choose between God and work? Because the Bible says that the person who doesn't work shouldn't eat. And the Bible also says that a worker is worthy of his hire.

In one of Jesus' parables he compliments two wise servants who invested money and earned a good return. He chastised the one who buried the money in the dirt. So while we should help others when we can, the Bible says that the person who doesn't take care of his own family is worse than a nonbeliever. And it was God Himself who rewarded Solomon with wealth beyond what most of us could comprehend.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 05:05:19 PM by admin »

Fem2009

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2009, 05:42:16 PM »
If you're going to follow Jesus at all, why not do it with your whole heart? Why not become like little children living in total dependence on God for your daily bread?

Sounds like what I did when I was homeless....the only thing is, God used the Salvation Army, the Lutherans,  Loaves and Fishes run by the Catholics, the Methodists, the Seventh Day Adventists and Church on the Way in Van Nuys California to feed me and give me free clothes.

When I was hungry and needed clothes all I had to do is know where to be and what time.

God really took care of me through those people.

Besides them, God made sure that a couple of Mexican restaurants would give me a buritto or a taco now and then, some donut shops would give me the day's left overs and some pizza shops would give me the mistakes and the orders people didn't pick up.

Aside from them when I would stand in front of Blockbusters and panhandle God would touch some other people to give me change or by me a Big Mac

....is that what you mean?

Otherwise I don't understand what you're talking about in practical sense.

Are you talking about manna from heaven and the quail God sent in the wilderness?

Please explain, cause one thing is for sure, when I look back over the goodness of God in my life, the best thing that God ever gave me was His Grace and Love, Hope through Salvation which led to me having a sound mind so I get a job. Now I can feed myself, take care of my family and help others whenever possible the same way God touched people to help me
 ::pondering::

Amen! Thank you for telling your story. That's very touching. Being homeless and turning to God is a miracle in itself. I would never have pictured it as clear as you've described. Most people turn their backs on God when things aren't going the way they want them to. His love is wonderful...

Thanks again...

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2009, 05:42:16 PM »

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2009, 06:49:30 PM »
And because I keep reading spiritual sounding but non biblical things about money being posted, I wrote an article about this topic at http://www.gracecentered.com/what_the_Bible_says_about_money.htm. Hope it's informative.

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2009, 06:49:30 PM »

Offline jiggyfly

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2009, 04:30:12 AM »
Just out of curiosity "gospel", what were you doing during the time you were homeless? Were you able to reach out in any way to others to try and advance God's government (the kingdom of God)?

If not, then I would have to agree that you may have just been a bit of a lazy sponge, taking without giving anything back, which I certainly would NOT advocate.

However, if you were able to help out, even in some small way, then sure, God could have used many more like you, for "the harvest is plentiful but the laborers are few".

That statement seems like a bit of a challenge for us to spend more time finding ways to build the world that Jesus spoke of rather than what many profess to be "called" to, which is usually the workforce.

Does anybody else find it strange how so few are "called" into the ministry, yet proportionally so many (the broad way?) are "called" into anything BUT the ministry?

And how do we suppose Jesus sees this "calling" when He already specifically called us to go out and preach HIS good news (contained in HIS TEACHINGS) in all the world?

"Well did Isaiah prophecy of these people..."

I represent Christ everyday while at work, tis a great door of opertunity.

idiglove

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2009, 11:38:55 AM »
Quote from: admin??
  Not sure where that passage is that says for us to quit our jobs and mooch off of people. And the Bible says God BLESSED Solomon with great wealth. The Bible says that the LOVE of money is the root of all evil. Not having it, working for it, using it wisely or enjoying it.

Sure, we should help others, that's a no brainer. But that's just one of the things that money can be used for that's not "evil." I plan on taking my wife to the beach at some point this summer with the money I've worked day and night to earn.

Money is simply what we trade our work for. So basically, I'm working 7 days a week to take my wife to the beach. Money is simply the result of work. Is work evil? Should we be asking if we should choose between God and work? Because the Bible says that the person who doesn't work shouldn't eat. And the Bible also says that a worker is worthy of his hire.

In one of Jesus' parables he compliments two wise servants who invested money and earned a good return. He chastised the one who buried the money in the dirt. So while we should help others when we can, the Bible says that the person who doesn't take care of his own family is worse than a nonbeliever. And it was God Himself who rewarded Solomon with wealth beyond what most of us could comprehend.

Just out of curiosity, are you really and administrator?

Anyways, I'm still shocked that you are working 7 days a week just to take your wife to the beach! Must be quite the beach! Is the shoreline diamond-encrusted or something? ::rolling::


But back to seriousness. No, the question has never been "God OR work". It has and continues to be God or money. Did you overlook the emphasis that I pointed out (AGAIN) about the fact that I advocate hard work?

Can anyone else see how we use Jesus when he says something that we assume supports money, i.e., the "talents" parable, and then have to skip right past Him (Jesus) and onto Solomon when it comes to talk of being "blessed beyond our ability to comprehend" in regards to worldly wealth? ::headscratch::




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Re: God or money?
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2009, 12:06:24 PM »
Quote
In one of Jesus' parables he compliments two wise servants who invested money and earned a good return. He chastised the one who buried the money in the dirt. So while we should help others when we can, the Bible says that the person who doesn't take care of his own family is worse than a nonbeliever. And it was God Himself who rewarded Solomon with wealth beyond what most of us could comprehend.


 ::amen!::

Admin those are very good points and much more succinct than my own....
 I gotta learn that !

Fem2009

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2009, 12:16:48 PM »
And because I keep reading spiritual sounding but non biblical things about money being posted, I wrote an article about this topic at http://www.gracecentered.com/what_the_Bible_says_about_money.htm. Hope it's informative.


This is a great article! I bookmarked it...Thank you

idiglove

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2009, 11:48:54 AM »
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, especially when there's so much good about the gospel of Jesus, but I think there are not just a few here who are just following Jesus' of their own imaginations, that bears no resemblance to the One who taught the Way to eternal life.

"gospel" (who has contributed most on this topic) has taken what the "Administrator" has said about a PARABLE regarding money (an attempt by Jesus to teach us something SPIRITUAL) as if it was a direct teaching or command, and I'm guessing "Admin" feels the same way, which is why he/she posted it.

But why do we "spiritualize" direct commands (teachings) and then turn direct commands into parables of some sort?

Does anybody see how the love of money could play a part in this?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ::amen!::$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ::preachit::$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ::announcment::$$$$$$$$$$$$ ::bowing::$$$$$$$$$$$$$

This is what it looks like the most popular teaching of our time, just like St. Paul said about this happening during the great apostasy (or "falling away") of the church. "...and they will be lovers of money and themselves".

It's a shocking shame, but prophecy unfolds nonetheless.