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idiglove

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God or money?
« on: Thu May 21, 2009 - 07:58:30 »
God or Money? ::eek::

--A Bible Study ::preachit::

(1982)

Jesus said we must become like little children to enter his kingdom. (Luke 18:16-17) We need the kind of faith that little children have in their parents to meet all their needs.

We have found that it works. Our heavenly Father is more than able to take care of our needs if we will spend our lives working for him.

Everyone in the world worries about how they're going to feed and clothe themselves. But Jesus said what makes his followers unique from all other religions is that we do not worry about these things. Instead, we work to build God's kingdom, and trust God to care for our material needs. (Matthew 6:19-34) Jesus commands his followers not to work for the food that perishes (John 6:27), but to take his yoke and work for him instead. (Matthew 11:29-30)

Jesus called some fishermen to follow him and their immediate response was to quit their business in order to do so. (Matthew 4:18-22) He called a tax collector to follow him and his immediate response was to leave his job to follow Christ. (Luke 5:27-28) A rich young ruler wanted to follow Jesus and Jesus said for him to sell everything that he owned and give the proceeds to the poor, and then come and follow him. (Luke 18:22-25) A multitude came to Jesus and he said to them that unless they forsook everything that they owned, they could not be his disciples. (Luke 14:25, 33) To all of his followers Jesus said, "Birds don't have jobs and flowers don't weave cloth, yet God feeds and clothes them. So stop working for money and start working for God. Sell what you have and give to the poor; for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." (Luke 12:22-34) To the religious leaders of his day, Jesus said, "Give everything you have to the poor, and everything else will be clean for you." (Luke 11:41)

Jesus did not say that the choice was between working for God or working for the devil. He said it was between working for God or working for money. He says that, in our attempts to serve one "master" we are going to end up cheating the other. He says we will either learn to despise God or to despise money. (Luke 16:13-15) Which one do you despise?

Saint Paul said the love of money is the root of all evil. (I Timothy 6:10) He said we should stay away from people of "corrupt minds" who teach that wealth is a sign of God's blessing. (I Timothy 6:5)

Obviously God does bless some people with wealth. But we cannot say that our wealth is a gift from God if we have sold our souls (lives) to employers in order to obtain it. And when wealth truly comes to us as a gift from God, it comes for the express purpose of helping others... not so that we can spend it on luxuries for ourselves while much of the world goes to bed hungry each night.

Jesus said, "Woe to you who are rich, for you have received your comforts! Woe to you who are full, for you shall hunger!" (Luke 6:24-25) These are sobering words for those of us who are overweight while the rest of the world suffers from malnutrition.

Saint James said, "Hasn't God chosen the poor of this world, who are rich in faith, to inherit his kingdom? Yet you despise the poor. Don't the rich oppress true Christians and have them arrested for speaking the truth? Don't they blaspheme the name by which you have been called?" (James 2:5-7)

To the rich he says, "Weep and howl, you rich people, for the miseries that shall come upon you. Your riches rot in your fridges, rust in your garages, and collect moths in your closets while you exploit underpaid Third World labour to get it. It will all be a testimony against you in the last days." (James 5:1-6 paraphrased)

There was a dramatic difference between what Jesus taught about money and what the Old Testament taught. Jews gave 10% of their money and 1/7 of their time to God and more or less kept the rest for themselves. But Jesus taught 100% living by faith (i.e. forsaking all and living and witnessing together seven days a week), and that is what made the early church so powerful. (See Acts 2:44-45 and Acts 4:32-35.)

If you're going to follow Jesus at all, why not do it with your whole heart? Why not become like little children living in total dependence on God for your daily bread?

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God or money?
« on: Thu May 21, 2009 - 07:58:30 »

Offline gospel

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #1 on: Thu May 21, 2009 - 18:19:21 »
If you're going to follow Jesus at all, why not do it with your whole heart? Why not become like little children living in total dependence on God for your daily bread?

Sounds like what I did when I was homeless....the only thing is, God used the Salvation Army, the Lutherans,  Loaves and Fishes run by the Catholics, the Methodists, the Seventh Day Adventists and Church on the Way in Van Nuys California to feed me and give me free clothes.

When I was hungry and needed clothes all I had to do is know where to be and what time.

God really took care of me through those people.

Besides them, God made sure that a couple of Mexican restaurants would give me a buritto or a taco now and then, some donut shops would give me the day's left overs and some pizza shops would give me the mistakes and the orders people didn't pick up.

Aside from them when I would stand in front of Blockbusters and panhandle God would touch some other people to give me change or by me a Big Mac

....is that what you mean?

Otherwise I don't understand what you're talking about in practical sense.

Are you talking about manna from heaven and the quail God sent in the wilderness?

Please explain, cause one thing is for sure, when I look back over the goodness of God in my life, the best thing that God ever gave me was His Grace and Love, Hope through Salvation which led to me having a sound mind so I get a job. Now I can feed myself, take care of my family and help others whenever possible the same way God touched people to help me
 ::pondering::

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #1 on: Thu May 21, 2009 - 18:19:21 »

idiglove

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #2 on: Fri May 22, 2009 - 11:47:47 »
Just out of curiosity "gospel", what were you doing during the time you were homeless? Were you able to reach out in any way to others to try and advance God's government (the kingdom of God)?

If not, then I would have to agree that you may have just been a bit of a lazy sponge, taking without giving anything back, which I certainly would NOT advocate.

However, if you were able to help out, even in some small way, then sure, God could have used many more like you, for "the harvest is plentiful but the laborers are few".

That statement seems like a bit of a challenge for us to spend more time finding ways to build the world that Jesus spoke of rather than what many profess to be "called" to, which is usually the workforce.

Does anybody else find it strange how so few are "called" into the ministry, yet proportionally so many (the broad way?) are "called" into anything BUT the ministry?

And how do we suppose Jesus sees this "calling" when He already specifically called us to go out and preach HIS good news (contained in HIS TEACHINGS) in all the world?

"Well did Isaiah prophecy of these people..."

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #2 on: Fri May 22, 2009 - 11:47:47 »

Offline gospel

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #3 on: Fri May 22, 2009 - 12:35:51 »
Quote
Just out of curiosity "gospel", what were you doing during the time you were homeless? Were you able to reach out in any way to others to try and advance God's government (the kingdom of God)?

If you've read some of my other posts you might see that the insinuation I'm trying to make is, as a general rule ....

....people God can use are not homeless, hungry panhandlers. They generally don't make good laborers. Jesus and His Disciples were not poor homeless people, they were people that put basically but all their available resources into the ministry and dedicated themselves to sustaining the ministry in that manner.

Bottom line many of them left businesses and having done so initially had resources to invest and to sustain themselves and the ministry...hence a treasury and a treasurer
 
Your run of the mill homeless person like I was lacked characteristics necessary to witness for Christ like "being faithful in least" and diligence for instance just 2 aspects of God's character and Fruit of the Spirit that come to mind. 

In 6 years of panhandling, washing car windows, flopping around..... I can honestly say that me and almost every person in my circumstance that I associated with were that way because we were not saved and didn't know Christ.
 
To the contrary most of us, almost all of us were in those situations because of drugs,  alcohol and in some cases heartache and morbid grief from the lost of a loved one or the heartache of a broken marriage or a broken home.

Most of us believed in God in a superficial manner but not were not members of a church before or during homelessness, most believed in the bible but did not really know it at all.

Rescue Missions are great places that help to turn many wayward lives such as these around.
   

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #3 on: Fri May 22, 2009 - 12:35:51 »

idiglove

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #4 on: Sun May 24, 2009 - 11:51:43 »
While I would agree with your statement that

Quote
Your run of the mill homeless person like I was lacked characteristics necessary to witness for Christ like "being faithful in least" and diligence for instance just 2 aspects of God's character and Fruit of the Spirit that come to mind
,

It seems pretty obvious that I've not been referring to becoming a "run of the mill homeless person". I would also consider many of these people (typically from Western countries) to be unfit in their current conditions.

I spend most of my days witnessing on the streets, (most often with biblical literature, sharing with those who want to talk) and would agree that Western homelessness usually revolves around drug and alcohol abuse, which is unfortunate, and I'm glad to see some of them getting off these substances.

But I still disagree that what these people need more than anything is just a "good job". I find it funny that joining the world and its workforce is often presented as the end all, be all when it comes to helping folks in these situations. We just end up building this system (the world) INSTEAD of God's system (or Kingdom of Heaven).



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Re: God or money?
« Reply #4 on: Sun May 24, 2009 - 11:51:43 »



Offline gospel

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #5 on: Tue May 26, 2009 - 13:33:46 »
Quote
But I still disagree that what these people need more than anything is just a "good job". I find it funny that joining the world and its workforce is often presented as the end all, be all when it comes to helping folks in these situations. We just end up building this system (the world) INSTEAD of God's system (or Kingdom of Heaven).

We live on earth.

We have a human body...an earth suit

Enterprise and industriousness ( work) are part of our earthly activity and endeavor


We are also spiritual beings

We inhabit our bodies. We cannot be all one and deny the other, for God has intentionally made us to be both.

The Kingdom of God is within us

People won't be saying, 'Look! Here it is!' or 'There it is!' because now the kingdom of God is among you."  Luke 17:21

You may have a farm or work in a mill. You may be a school teacher, a builder or a doctor.

You may be an engineer, a carpenter or a mason. You may be skilled in any number of areas

However it is......   

The way we live, glorify God, witness for Him and outwardly express His presence, these are the ways we manifest His kingdom and occupy until His return.

As a rule not working usually renders one with no means or resources and therefore ineffective in manifesting the glory of God because all of one's time is spent in meeting the essential needs of eating and having a place to sleep.

Therefore living a life of lack actually consumes more of ones time and takes away from the time one would otherwise spend in study, in ministry, in prayer and being an effective witness.
Hence it is the availability of resources that make it possible to manifest the Kingdom and not the lack thereof.

If you were street witnessing you could afford to because your basic needs were met. if not by your hand then by the hands of others who could used to support you in your work.

No matter how you slice it...... your food, clothing and shelter are/were the result of someone's work and finances, either yours or someone elses albeit by the Grace of God to Him be all the glory!!


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Re: God or money?
« Reply #5 on: Tue May 26, 2009 - 13:33:46 »

idiglove

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #6 on: Sun May 31, 2009 - 12:47:20 »
Hi G,

I know we've decided to agree to disagree over on the thread "Why do we work for money?", but just for the sake of others reading this thread (and that one), I wanted to remind people that I am strongly advocating that people work, but just not let money be their motivation.

This is in response to this statement from you:

Quote from: g
As a rule not working usually renders one with no means or resources and therefore ineffective in manifesting the glory of God because all of one's time is spent in meeting the essential needs of eating and having a place to sleep.

If you and others can accept this much, then we may gain some headway into more constructive dialogue.


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Re: God or money?
« Reply #7 on: Sun May 31, 2009 - 17:09:27 »
Not sure where that passage is that says for us to quit our jobs and mooch off of people. And the Bible says God BLESSED Solomon with great wealth. The Bible says that the LOVE of money is the root of all evil. Not having it, working for it, using it wisely or enjoying it.

Sure, we should help others, that's a no brainer. But that's just one of the things that money can be used for that's not "evil." I plan on taking my wife to the beach at some point this summer with the money I've worked day and night to earn.

Money is simply what we trade our work for. So basically, I'm working 7 days a week to take my wife to the beach. Money is simply the result of work. Is work evil? Should we be asking if we should choose between God and work? Because the Bible says that the person who doesn't work shouldn't eat. And the Bible also says that a worker is worthy of his hire.

In one of Jesus' parables he compliments two wise servants who invested money and earned a good return. He chastised the one who buried the money in the dirt. So while we should help others when we can, the Bible says that the person who doesn't take care of his own family is worse than a nonbeliever. And it was God Himself who rewarded Solomon with wealth beyond what most of us could comprehend.
« Last Edit: Sun May 31, 2009 - 18:05:19 by admin »

Fem2009

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #8 on: Sun May 31, 2009 - 18:42:16 »
If you're going to follow Jesus at all, why not do it with your whole heart? Why not become like little children living in total dependence on God for your daily bread?

Sounds like what I did when I was homeless....the only thing is, God used the Salvation Army, the Lutherans,  Loaves and Fishes run by the Catholics, the Methodists, the Seventh Day Adventists and Church on the Way in Van Nuys California to feed me and give me free clothes.

When I was hungry and needed clothes all I had to do is know where to be and what time.

God really took care of me through those people.

Besides them, God made sure that a couple of Mexican restaurants would give me a buritto or a taco now and then, some donut shops would give me the day's left overs and some pizza shops would give me the mistakes and the orders people didn't pick up.

Aside from them when I would stand in front of Blockbusters and panhandle God would touch some other people to give me change or by me a Big Mac

....is that what you mean?

Otherwise I don't understand what you're talking about in practical sense.

Are you talking about manna from heaven and the quail God sent in the wilderness?

Please explain, cause one thing is for sure, when I look back over the goodness of God in my life, the best thing that God ever gave me was His Grace and Love, Hope through Salvation which led to me having a sound mind so I get a job. Now I can feed myself, take care of my family and help others whenever possible the same way God touched people to help me
 ::pondering::

Amen! Thank you for telling your story. That's very touching. Being homeless and turning to God is a miracle in itself. I would never have pictured it as clear as you've described. Most people turn their backs on God when things aren't going the way they want them to. His love is wonderful...

Thanks again...

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #8 on: Sun May 31, 2009 - 18:42:16 »

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #9 on: Sun May 31, 2009 - 19:49:30 »
And because I keep reading spiritual sounding but non biblical things about money being posted, I wrote an article about this topic at http://www.gracecentered.com/what_the_Bible_says_about_money.htm. Hope it's informative.

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #10 on: Mon Jun 01, 2009 - 05:30:12 »
Just out of curiosity "gospel", what were you doing during the time you were homeless? Were you able to reach out in any way to others to try and advance God's government (the kingdom of God)?

If not, then I would have to agree that you may have just been a bit of a lazy sponge, taking without giving anything back, which I certainly would NOT advocate.

However, if you were able to help out, even in some small way, then sure, God could have used many more like you, for "the harvest is plentiful but the laborers are few".

That statement seems like a bit of a challenge for us to spend more time finding ways to build the world that Jesus spoke of rather than what many profess to be "called" to, which is usually the workforce.

Does anybody else find it strange how so few are "called" into the ministry, yet proportionally so many (the broad way?) are "called" into anything BUT the ministry?

And how do we suppose Jesus sees this "calling" when He already specifically called us to go out and preach HIS good news (contained in HIS TEACHINGS) in all the world?

"Well did Isaiah prophecy of these people..."

I represent Christ everyday while at work, tis a great door of opertunity.

idiglove

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #11 on: Mon Jun 01, 2009 - 12:38:55 »
Quote from: admin??
  Not sure where that passage is that says for us to quit our jobs and mooch off of people. And the Bible says God BLESSED Solomon with great wealth. The Bible says that the LOVE of money is the root of all evil. Not having it, working for it, using it wisely or enjoying it.

Sure, we should help others, that's a no brainer. But that's just one of the things that money can be used for that's not "evil." I plan on taking my wife to the beach at some point this summer with the money I've worked day and night to earn.

Money is simply what we trade our work for. So basically, I'm working 7 days a week to take my wife to the beach. Money is simply the result of work. Is work evil? Should we be asking if we should choose between God and work? Because the Bible says that the person who doesn't work shouldn't eat. And the Bible also says that a worker is worthy of his hire.

In one of Jesus' parables he compliments two wise servants who invested money and earned a good return. He chastised the one who buried the money in the dirt. So while we should help others when we can, the Bible says that the person who doesn't take care of his own family is worse than a nonbeliever. And it was God Himself who rewarded Solomon with wealth beyond what most of us could comprehend.

Just out of curiosity, are you really and administrator?

Anyways, I'm still shocked that you are working 7 days a week just to take your wife to the beach! Must be quite the beach! Is the shoreline diamond-encrusted or something? ::rolling::


But back to seriousness. No, the question has never been "God OR work". It has and continues to be God or money. Did you overlook the emphasis that I pointed out (AGAIN) about the fact that I advocate hard work?

Can anyone else see how we use Jesus when he says something that we assume supports money, i.e., the "talents" parable, and then have to skip right past Him (Jesus) and onto Solomon when it comes to talk of being "blessed beyond our ability to comprehend" in regards to worldly wealth? ::headscratch::




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Re: God or money?
« Reply #12 on: Mon Jun 01, 2009 - 13:06:24 »
Quote
In one of Jesus' parables he compliments two wise servants who invested money and earned a good return. He chastised the one who buried the money in the dirt. So while we should help others when we can, the Bible says that the person who doesn't take care of his own family is worse than a nonbeliever. And it was God Himself who rewarded Solomon with wealth beyond what most of us could comprehend.


 ::amen!::

Admin those are very good points and much more succinct than my own....
 I gotta learn that !

Fem2009

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #13 on: Mon Jun 01, 2009 - 13:16:48 »
And because I keep reading spiritual sounding but non biblical things about money being posted, I wrote an article about this topic at http://www.gracecentered.com/what_the_Bible_says_about_money.htm. Hope it's informative.


This is a great article! I bookmarked it...Thank you

idiglove

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #14 on: Tue Jun 02, 2009 - 12:48:54 »
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, especially when there's so much good about the gospel of Jesus, but I think there are not just a few here who are just following Jesus' of their own imaginations, that bears no resemblance to the One who taught the Way to eternal life.

"gospel" (who has contributed most on this topic) has taken what the "Administrator" has said about a PARABLE regarding money (an attempt by Jesus to teach us something SPIRITUAL) as if it was a direct teaching or command, and I'm guessing "Admin" feels the same way, which is why he/she posted it.

But why do we "spiritualize" direct commands (teachings) and then turn direct commands into parables of some sort?

Does anybody see how the love of money could play a part in this?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ::amen!::$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ::preachit::$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ::announcment::$$$$$$$$$$$$ ::bowing::$$$$$$$$$$$$$

This is what it looks like the most popular teaching of our time, just like St. Paul said about this happening during the great apostasy (or "falling away") of the church. "...and they will be lovers of money and themselves".

It's a shocking shame, but prophecy unfolds nonetheless.

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #15 on: Tue Jun 02, 2009 - 15:58:20 »
idiglove,

As you pointed out, the Bible says it is the LOVE of money that is wrong. Not HAVING money. Why not reading the article that I posted and see all the Bible passages before arguing against a straw man?

idiglove

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #16 on: Wed Jun 03, 2009 - 11:51:34 »
Hi Lee,

I read your article, but I have to say, not to offend you, but as constructive criticism, that I'm still not impressed with the gist of what it's getting at.

For instance, why didn't you include ANYTHING that Jesus has to say on the matter of money (or other names He might use for it like "mammon of unrighteousness", and "filthy lucre")?

This is what I've been getting at this whole time. We skip right past what GOD IN THE FLESH IN THE FORM OF THE SON had to say about money to quote some pretty flimsy references to people being blessed with wealth.

I would agree that Solomon was impressive in that he could've asked God for anything, but he chose WISDOM above all. Perhaps because he wasn't busy chasing after money $$$$$$$ ::prayinghard::$$$$$$$$$$$ like so many of us, God decided that he could be trusted and blessed him greatly.

Motive is all important in all of this.

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #17 on: Wed Jun 03, 2009 - 12:58:09 »
Quote
"mammon of unrighteousness", and "filthy lucre"

You answered you own question!

When Jesus used those terms, it was in reference to the motives by which the money was gotten

This is a moot point by now it seems you even realize you're beating a dead horse

Instead of cutting to the chase which is as Lee correctly pointed out.... the "Love" of money is the root of all evil.

Quote
Perhaps because he wasn't busy chasing after money $$$$$$$ Praying hard$$$$$$$$$$$ like so many of us, God decided that he could be trusted and blessed him greatly.


The "Love" of money makes the money "mammon of unrighteousness", and "filthy lucre not merely having it

Wow.... after all that on 2 threads, you answered your own question!!

idiglove

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #18 on: Fri Jun 05, 2009 - 14:36:19 »
 ::disco::

idiglove

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #19 on: Sat Oct 17, 2009 - 16:49:46 »
(NOTE: This thread links directly to the main page under the heading "What Does the Bible Have to Say About Money?" I have re-started this discussion after some further thought and prayer about the title).



Just a suggestion...


How about we consider re-naming this discussion topic to this:

"What Does Jesus Have to Say About Money"

instead of "What Does the Bible Have to Say About Money"?

That way, I think it would clarify where we, as Christians, should head first into scripture for guidance (i.e. Jesus and his teachings).

After all, how many Christians do you know that really put into practice what they read from Leviticus? For example, can you recall the last time you stoned someone for committing adultery? Or how about the last time you tore your house down (brick by brick) because it had some mold in it?

 On the contrary, this would (or at least should) never be the case in regard to Jesus' actual teachings and how timelessly they relate to everything a Christian (or "little Christ") needs to know about all of life and how to live it.

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #20 on: Sat Oct 17, 2009 - 17:22:02 »
Yes Lee really is admin.
As has been pointed out it is the love of money that is the problem.  Looking at what Jesus said will not change that biblical fact.   I personally believe God has blessed me so I can help others.  I also like the example of Rick Warren of Saddle Back fame.  The money he has received from purpose driven church ETC. has been used to stop taking a salary from the church, he payed back all the money that the church had paid him since he started it and is using it for many other good causes.  Nothing Jesus said would condemn this use of money.  Why don't you find another hobby horse to ride this one is getting tired.

idiglove

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #21 on: Sun Oct 18, 2009 - 21:25:38 »
Quote from: Johnb
As has been pointed out it is the love of money that is the problem.

Yes, that's true, and we are both in agreement about that fact. But I do find it more than a little strange that people, for some reason, always feel like they have to clarify that point, as if I have been confused about it.

Quote
  Looking at what Jesus said will not change that biblical fact.

Right again!

But what WOULD most likely change after referring to the things Jesus specifically said about money would be our perception of what it means to be "blessed". Think about it... Jesus said "blessed are the poor", and then went even further to clarify that point by also saying "WOE to the rich".

Wow. And what is it that makes it so hard for a RICH person to get into heaven anyway, Jesus?


Also, notice how the only thing that got the rich man in trouble with God was just simply ignoring Lazarus outside his gate (or gated community)?

You see, the reason I brought this up to begin with was that I was just disappointed to see how the teachings of Jesus are almost always left out of these kind of discussions, as if we think he couldn't possibly have anything relevant to say about it.

No, John, this is not a "hobby horse", but an attempt to allow Jesus' teachings on the matter to be given some proper airtime, as it's really the other side of this debate that has been worn out and people are looking for something deeper than the same old dung heap.


BTW, Jesus said, "when you give gifts to the poor, do it secretly", so how is it that we all seem to know about all the good things Rick Warren has done?

Can anyone else see just how much opposition there is to pretty much everything Jesus taught? He said "...and you will be hated by all men for my name's sake", and no one appears sees any contradiction when we start shouting praises of some of the most "respectable leaders" in the church. If we are not "hated by all men" for the sake of Jesus' gospel, chances are we sold out long ago.


As arrogant as  it sounds, most of what you will find on this forum will be hobby horse competitions, whereas all that I can be accused of is a radical committment to Jesus' teachings, and simply reminding people about what he said.

So if you and others are tired of the gospel (or teachings) of Jesus Christ, maybe you should consider joining some other organization that shares your disdain. How about "Atheists United"?

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #22 on: Mon Oct 19, 2009 - 17:36:21 »
idiglove

You are not teaching any new truth.  Everyone hear is trying to follow Christ and understand that the love of money is the root of evil.  There is no virtue in being rich or poor in itself but ones attitude toward their own situation. 
 No one here is rejecting the teaching of Jesus.  Rejecting your understand of scripture is not the same thing.  You are not Jesus nor His prophet.

A guy like Rick Warren can't win.  If he doesn't give his wealth away or does it in secret folks say he is just in it for the money.  hen he pays back everything he has been paid and does not take a salary so he can be like Paul and gives much to help those with physical problems he is "not doing it in secret".  Give me a break!

 

idiglove

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #23 on: Mon Oct 19, 2009 - 23:07:25 »
Quote from: Johnb
You are not teaching any new truth.

And I never claimed to be doing that. The teachings of Jesus are over 2,000 years old by now.

However, most people here (including you) would probably realize that the only thing unique about what I am sharing is that these teachings are almost universally NOT taught in the modern churches, and there is an even greater unlikelihood of them being practiced.

Here are a few in case they've been forgotten already:

"No one can serve 2 masters, for he will love one and hate the other, or else be loyal to one and despise the other. You can not serve (which means to work for) God AND money" Mt. 6:24-33


"Sell what you have and give to the poor" Luke 11, 12, and 14.

"Do not store up treasures on the face of the earth". (I'll let you look that one up).

Quote from: Johnb
No one here is rejecting the teaching of Jesus.  Rejecting your understand of scripture is not the same thing.


If what you are saying is true, I'd be curious to hear YOUR interpretation of those things above that Jesus taught.

But I've gotta warn you, most people word their responses in such a way that has Jesus saying the exact OPPOSITE of what he taught and was practiced by the first century Christians.

BTW, it wasn't me who said that our gifts to the poor are to be done in secret. Wanna guess who it was? If people have a problem with it, they'll just have to talk to THE Manager about it. ::smile::


Offline Johnb

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #24 on: Tue Oct 20, 2009 - 07:20:47 »
1.  Love of money being the root of evil is commonly taught in most churches.

2.  Jesus was saying the same thing don't put your faith in money or treasures.  He did not tell the rich young ruler to sell his possesions because they were evil but because his trust or faith was in the treasure.  (This was a story to teach the evil of putting your trust in anything other than Jesus.  It was not a command for everyone to sell all their stuff.

3. There is no sin in being poor or wealthy.

Offline JerryW

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #25 on: Tue Oct 20, 2009 - 21:09:29 »
Lets not forget Luke 18:24, "Jesus looked at him and said, How hard is it for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God? Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go thru the eye of a needle, then for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."  Seems pretty cut and dried.

ozell

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #26 on: Wed Oct 21, 2009 - 03:16:48 »
Gen 47:15 And when money failed in the land of Egypt, and in the land of Canaan, all the Egyptians came unto Joseph, and said, Give us bread: for why should we die in thy presence?  for the money faileth.

God never fails!

Offline Johnb

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #27 on: Wed Oct 21, 2009 - 16:38:11 »
And your point is as relates to this topic?

idiglove

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #28 on: Wed Oct 21, 2009 - 17:07:04 »
1.  Love of money being the root of evil is commonly taught in most churches.


That may be true, but what are we doing about it? Which brings me to my next question:

What do you think would happen if Christians, like Jesus, the apostles, and the first century Church mention in Acts 2 and 4, stopped working for money (Mt 6:24-33 "...you can not serve God and money") and began working for love (God)?

Imagine that!!

That would be the revival or revolution the church so often prays for, but it will take much more self-denial than is currently popular practice.

And that is what is holding us back----our own greed and unwillingness to lay down our lives to preach (and practice) the gospel throughout the entire world. We are just absolutely certain that it is everyone else's job to do, while we stay in our comfortable little cubicles, feeling justified that "at least I contribute financially each month".

But God wants YOU to go out and help harvest all those souls that are perishing.

Quote
2.  Jesus was saying the same thing don't put your faith in money or treasures.  He did not tell the rich young ruler to sell his possesions because they were evil but because his trust or faith was in the treasure.  (This was a story to teach the evil of putting your trust in anything other than Jesus.  It was not a command for everyone to sell all their stuff.


Uh, actually, I left out the "rich young ruler" verse on purpose to show that in Luke 11, 12, and 14 Jesus makes it clear that this IS a command given to anyone "who wishes to be My disciple".

Good try though, Johnb, but now that you realize he's talking to you too, I'm sure you'd be more than willing to let go of all that stuff so you can more easily get on with the "great commission", eh? Good riddance to all that junk that's been holding you back, right? ::disco::

Quote
3. There is no sin in being poor or wealthy.

Well John, it all depends on what you do (or DON'T do) with that wealth. "How can you say you love God, whom you haven't seen, when you see your brother or sister in need and do nothing to help them with your material goods?" 1st John 3:17. Also, the story of the rich man and Lazarus is another great example to refer to, as well as "do not store up treasures (wealth) on the face of the earth".



Offline Johnb

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #29 on: Wed Oct 21, 2009 - 19:53:47 »
idglove
There are many stories and parables in Luke 11, 12 and 14.  They all are carring the same message.  If you love anything, father mother wealth whatever more than God or if it keeps you from serving God then it must go.  He is not saying that everyone must get rid of every earthy possesion to be pleasing to God .  That is a gross misrepresentation of what scripture is saying. 
Where is the evidence that the apostles all sold everything that they had and depended solely on God to supply their needs.  Paul was a tent maker and continued that vocation to support himself.

ozell

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #30 on: Thu Oct 22, 2009 - 03:25:59 »
And your point is as relates to this topic?

It's simple Brother

I'll post it again and you pray on after you have read everyone's post again

Gen 47:15 And when money failed in the land of Egypt, and in the land of Canaan, all the Egyptians came unto Joseph, and said, Give us bread: for why should we die in thy presence?  for the money faileth.

God never fails!

It is written money fails.

it is not written where God fails.

do you get it now?

Offline Johnb

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #31 on: Thu Oct 22, 2009 - 06:22:11 »
Ozell
No offense intended.  Yes God never fails and we should not place our faith in things of this world.
However, the OP is is trying to say that it is sin to have money and we must give everything away to be pleasing to God.  I hope you are not saying the same thing.

Offline gospel

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #32 on: Thu Oct 22, 2009 - 16:44:50 »
Ozell
No offense intended.  Yes God never fails and we should not place our faith in things of this world.
However, the OP is is trying to say that it is sin to have money and we must give everything away to be pleasing to God.  I hope you are not saying the same thing.

You're absolutely right.

Joanna the wife of Cuza, the manager of Herod's household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means.
Luke 8:3

As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. Matthew 27:57

and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed
him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn
Luke 2:7
 
Because there was no room, not because they were poor and destitute

On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh Matthew 2:11

Unfortunately many people believe there were only 3 Magi - (strates) foreign diplomats who visited Jesus. But the citing of 3 is no where in scripture. History supports that these were noble men from Babylon who knew of the prophecy of the Messiah because of the writings of Daniel.

Riding through what would have been to them as Babylonians, hostile Roman territory they certainly would have not come in a small group but rather a caravan.

Whats my point?
Do you think they gave Jesus little trinkets of gold or gold worthy of a King such as what Kings, nobles and dignitaries give other Kings, nobles and dignitaries.
Case in point Sheba and Solomon.

Long story short Jesus was not poor and destitute as tradition would have us believe ...neither was He homeless

John 1:39
   He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.

Below is some further info on Frankincense and Myrrh, you'll find these were very valuable gifts, especially during Jesus day....and one must seriouslly doubt the Magi- strates traveled hundreds of miles to give Jesus trinkets and a few sticks of incense

Be that as it may, many people will insist upon sticking to and believing traditions passed down by men not found in scripture rather than that which is obvious according to scripture

    *  Almost all frankincense comes from western Oman, where it is used for everything from deodorant and toothpaste to food and drink flavoring.
    * Frankincense and myrrh were so expensive in Europe that southern Arabia became known as Arabia Felix, ÔÇťArabia the Blessed.

ozell

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #33 on: Fri Oct 23, 2009 - 08:42:48 »
Ozell
No offense intended.  Yes God never fails and we should not place our faith in things of this world.
However, the OP is is trying to say that it is sin to have money and we must give everything away to be pleasing to God.  I hope you are not saying the same thing.

No offense taken

 Jn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

1: I said in mine heart, Go to now, I will prove thee with mirth, therefore enjoy pleasure: and, behold, this also is vanity.
Deut 14:29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.

Deut 28:12 The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.

Deut 30:9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:

idiglove

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #34 on: Fri Oct 23, 2009 - 13:44:44 »
"gospel", why do you think it is that when you (or others) offer some input on this subject it is ok, but if I (in particular) do the same thing it is usually regarded as "beating a dead horse".

The point being that most of us have already heard similar arguments to the ones that you're raising, so if anything, that is where the beating of a dead horse is taking place.

On the other hand, the things that have been shared about Jesus blessing the poor, while nearly cursing the rich ("woe to you who are rich") do indicate something quite a bit more unique to the churches. I say nearly because hell would be the final "curse" dished out to people like the one in Jesus' story of Lazarus (the beggar) and the rich man.

 Also, keep in mind the teaching that "it is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle (and it really is a sewing needle that Jesus is talking about) than it is for a rich man to get into heaven".

And about this quote:

John 1:39   He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.

Does it say anything about a house, apartment, or some other clues that would tell us that it is definitely INdoors, as opposed to sleeping out under the stars somewhere? That would certainly seem to fit in more with the statement Jesus made that "the Son of Man has no place to lay his head". Surely Jesus would know that you can literally lay your head to sleep in every single direction. But the point he appears to be making is that, unlike birds and foxes who have little "homes", he doesn't.

Also, I don't think you'll find anyone here arguing that Jesus was destitute, since that implies that God (the Father) wasn't doing a very good job of looking after His son. If that were the case, you might even find people throwing around the scripture that says "if you don't take care of your own family, you're worse than an infidel"!

What I am saying is that Jesus was poor in the sense that he didn't have any house or possessions to show except for some clothes that he was wearing. From this it appears that he actually practiced what he preached, i.e. not "storing up treasures on the face of the earth".

Hey, BTW "g", a quick little bit of very interesting trivia for you:

How much cash did Solomon receive from the queen of Sheba?  It's a pretty surprising and significant amount.

 

     
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