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Author Topic: God or money?  (Read 48467 times)

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ozell

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2009, 02:25:59 AM »
And your point is as relates to this topic?

It's simple Brother

I'll post it again and you pray on after you have read everyone's post again

Gen 47:15 And when money failed in the land of Egypt, and in the land of Canaan, all the Egyptians came unto Joseph, and said, Give us bread: for why should we die in thy presence?  for the money faileth.

God never fails!

It is written money fails.

it is not written where God fails.

do you get it now?

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2009, 02:25:59 AM »

Online Johnb

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2009, 05:22:11 AM »
Ozell
No offense intended.  Yes God never fails and we should not place our faith in things of this world.
However, the OP is is trying to say that it is sin to have money and we must give everything away to be pleasing to God.  I hope you are not saying the same thing.

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2009, 05:22:11 AM »

Offline gospel

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2009, 03:44:50 PM »
Ozell
No offense intended.  Yes God never fails and we should not place our faith in things of this world.
However, the OP is is trying to say that it is sin to have money and we must give everything away to be pleasing to God.  I hope you are not saying the same thing.

You're absolutely right.

Joanna the wife of Cuza, the manager of Herod's household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means.
Luke 8:3

As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. Matthew 27:57

and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed
him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn
Luke 2:7
 
Because there was no room, not because they were poor and destitute

On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh Matthew 2:11

Unfortunately many people believe there were only 3 Magi - (strates) foreign diplomats who visited Jesus. But the citing of 3 is no where in scripture. History supports that these were noble men from Babylon who knew of the prophecy of the Messiah because of the writings of Daniel.

Riding through what would have been to them as Babylonians, hostile Roman territory they certainly would have not come in a small group but rather a caravan.

Whats my point?
Do you think they gave Jesus little trinkets of gold or gold worthy of a King such as what Kings, nobles and dignitaries give other Kings, nobles and dignitaries.
Case in point Sheba and Solomon.

Long story short Jesus was not poor and destitute as tradition would have us believe ...neither was He homeless

John 1:39
   He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.

Below is some further info on Frankincense and Myrrh, you'll find these were very valuable gifts, especially during Jesus day....and one must seriouslly doubt the Magi- strates traveled hundreds of miles to give Jesus trinkets and a few sticks of incense

Be that as it may, many people will insist upon sticking to and believing traditions passed down by men not found in scripture rather than that which is obvious according to scripture

    *  Almost all frankincense comes from western Oman, where it is used for everything from deodorant and toothpaste to food and drink flavoring.
    * Frankincense and myrrh were so expensive in Europe that southern Arabia became known as Arabia Felix, “Arabia the Blessed.

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2009, 03:44:50 PM »

ozell

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2009, 07:42:48 AM »
Ozell
No offense intended.  Yes God never fails and we should not place our faith in things of this world.
However, the OP is is trying to say that it is sin to have money and we must give everything away to be pleasing to God.  I hope you are not saying the same thing.

No offense taken

 Jn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

1: I said in mine heart, Go to now, I will prove thee with mirth, therefore enjoy pleasure: and, behold, this also is vanity.
Deut 14:29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.

Deut 28:12 The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.

Deut 30:9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2009, 07:42:48 AM »

idiglove

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2009, 12:44:44 PM »
"gospel", why do you think it is that when you (or others) offer some input on this subject it is ok, but if I (in particular) do the same thing it is usually regarded as "beating a dead horse".

The point being that most of us have already heard similar arguments to the ones that you're raising, so if anything, that is where the beating of a dead horse is taking place.

On the other hand, the things that have been shared about Jesus blessing the poor, while nearly cursing the rich ("woe to you who are rich") do indicate something quite a bit more unique to the churches. I say nearly because hell would be the final "curse" dished out to people like the one in Jesus' story of Lazarus (the beggar) and the rich man.

 Also, keep in mind the teaching that "it is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle (and it really is a sewing needle that Jesus is talking about) than it is for a rich man to get into heaven".

And about this quote:

John 1:39   He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.

Does it say anything about a house, apartment, or some other clues that would tell us that it is definitely INdoors, as opposed to sleeping out under the stars somewhere? That would certainly seem to fit in more with the statement Jesus made that "the Son of Man has no place to lay his head". Surely Jesus would know that you can literally lay your head to sleep in every single direction. But the point he appears to be making is that, unlike birds and foxes who have little "homes", he doesn't.

Also, I don't think you'll find anyone here arguing that Jesus was destitute, since that implies that God (the Father) wasn't doing a very good job of looking after His son. If that were the case, you might even find people throwing around the scripture that says "if you don't take care of your own family, you're worse than an infidel"!

What I am saying is that Jesus was poor in the sense that he didn't have any house or possessions to show except for some clothes that he was wearing. From this it appears that he actually practiced what he preached, i.e. not "storing up treasures on the face of the earth".

Hey, BTW "g", a quick little bit of very interesting trivia for you:

How much cash did Solomon receive from the queen of Sheba?  It's a pretty surprising and significant amount.

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2009, 12:44:44 PM »



Offline gospel

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2009, 02:11:20 PM »
Quote
The point being that most of us have already heard similar arguments to the ones that you're raising, so if anything, that is where the beating of a dead horse is taking place
.

Obviously the average believer and MOST non believers are in agreement with the myth of the poor destitute Jesus.
Ask any non believer something about Jesus, they'll tell you He was poor and homeless and they don't even have, read or believe the bible.
They get their information from the traditions of men passed down. These traditions do not require bible knowledge understanding or belief, just word of mouth that generally becomes accepted as truth even though they have no basis in scripture.

This makes it even more sad that people who DO believe in the bible are blinded to the truth of it due to their blind denial of scripture and blind acceptance of tradition.

Case in point...I made several scriptural proofs that Jesus was not poor nor did he despise the rich, yet you desperately hold on to the traditions that say otherwise.
That's your privilege but far from beating a dead horse
... my posts on this topic are among the rare chances for many people to hear the truth according to scripture but in essence myself and a few others hold the minority in this matter while those who cling to tradition maintain the majority viewpoint.

Quote
On the other hand, the things that have been shared about Jesus blessing the poor, while nearly cursing the rich ("woe to you who are rich") do indicate something quite a bit more unique to the churches. I say nearly because hell would be the final "curse" dished out to people like the one in Jesus' story of Lazarus (the beggar) and the rich man.

Be serious
Even a child can see it was the rich mans heart that was at fault not his money. If he had been generous and kind to the beggar, it would have been similar to the story of the Good Samaritan...or did you overlook that story of a well to do man's unselfish benevolence?

 
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 11:14:41 AM by gospel »

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2009, 02:11:20 PM »

Offline Cally

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2009, 02:51:39 PM »
Gospel to cut right to the heart about what we're really talking about, God's command is to love one's neighbor as himself.

So, John the Baptist said "whoever has two tunics should share with the one who has none."

What, then, does the zero-tunics guy do? SURVIVE, while those unwilling to carry out that command worry about losing huge houses, jewelry, toys, AND their tunics while watching the poor suffer and make up philosophies and twist scripture (which writes all about such people) to condemn the poor without helping.

And I think God was/is incredibly pleased with you for doing that.  ::tippinghat:: And even THEN, God shows that the poor are not ineffective because of lack of resources: "silver and gold I do not have, but what I have I give you."

Everyone works in the field, and we are each paid a denari, regardless of how much more or less we think we worked, if we simply did as the Lord commanded us.

Money, then, should be seen as a tool to fulfill that command, in some form or another, nothing more--not something that gives life and happiness in itself.

idiglove

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2009, 07:57:11 PM »
Gospel to cut right to the heart about what we're really talking about, God's command is to love one's neighbor as himself.

So, John the Baptist said "whoever has two tunics should share with the one who has none."

What, then, does the zero-tunics guy do? SURVIVE, while those unwilling to carry out that command worry about losing huge houses, jewelry, toys, AND their tunics while watching the poor suffer and make up philosophies and twist scripture (which writes all about such people) to condemn the poor without helping.

And I think God was/is incredibly pleased with you for doing that.  ::tippinghat:: And even THEN, God shows that the poor are not ineffective because of lack of resources: "silver and gold I do not have, but what I have I give you."

Everyone works in the field, and we are each paid a denari, regardless of how much more or less we think we worked, if we simply did as the Lord commanded us.

Money, then, should be seen as a tool to fulfill that command, in some form or another, nothing more--not something that gives life and happiness in itself.


Excellent points, Cally.

This one is of particular interest and very clearly expresses what I think is happening here:

Quote
...while watching the poor suffer and make up philosophies and twist scripture (which writes all about such people) to condemn the poor without helping.

"gospel", maybe you can help clarify things for those of us who are (for some strange reason) unable to see what it is you are really trying to communicate with all of your defenses of the rich and their stored up wealth? What's the end result of your understanding of the scriptures?

While you're working on that, can you also clarify why it is that you (and others who share your perspective) have to steer completely away from the actual things Jesus taught to defend your position, all the while attempting to use background details  (again, not actual teachings) to justify it?

Please do consider how significant that point is, "gospel". Either Jesus' teachings (and the rest of the NT) will support ONE of our positions, or else it will just come crashing down on the sand heap it was built on.

But I will say that you are correct about this observation:

Quote
Even a child can see it was the rich mans heart that was at fault not his money. If he had been generous and kind to the beggar...

However, I fail to see why everything seems to come back to money being good, as in this:

Quote
...it would have been similar to the story of the Good Samaritan...or did you overlook that story of a well to do man's unselfish benevolence?

Even a child could see that it was this man's heart that was full of compassion, and not his money that is the point of this story.
 

Offline Cally

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2009, 10:20:19 PM »
The end result of a lot of that grumbling is Jesus' words: "whoever holds onto his life will lose it."

Hence people thinking that "the economy" is the problem. Incidentally "the economy" did not get fixed back in the 30's until people's attitudes changed--and that happened to be the wake-up call that was WWII.

People got their minds on something: "Purpose." And then "the economy" got fixed. It is the Lord who enables a person to be happy with little, and it is someone's arrogance that causes him to be discontent with much.

I think the other reason for pooling resources in Acts (and I don't think anyone was forced) was for class--not that anyone should be forced, to be sure--but I'm thinking that equal lifestyles makes it easier for people to relate among each other.

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2009, 10:20:19 PM »

son of God

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2009, 10:49:23 PM »
The one who merely does what is commanded of him is a worthless servant, Christ said.

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2009, 10:49:23 PM »

Offline Cally

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2009, 11:26:45 PM »
The one who merely does what is commanded of him is a worthless servant, Christ said.

I was referring to Mathew 20: 1-15.

Finally I don't have anything against people who are prosperous. I mean I think of Job who was, and mentioned that his door was always open to travelers (an implication that the rich tend to share things in some form or another). Anyway yes I hate a money-centered attitude, and so much theology these days is based on getting stuff from God . . . well, that's good but incomplete: it's meant to be INVESTED in some form. Maybe a wealthy person is doing that (and how so is none of the rest of our business, usually). But in general the government helps the poor, the government restores people to the ability to work toward their callings--several things that the church is definitely supposed to do for its members. Pretty embarrassing, although many, many of those organizations are Christian, so fortunately the same effect seems to be happening to a degree.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 11:44:55 PM by Cally »

Online Johnb

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2009, 07:43:51 AM »
Idiglove
No one is saying money or riches are good or bad.  It is ones attitude toward them that makes riches or money evil. It is also true that Jesus said it is more difficult for the truly rich to have the right heart or attitude.  Therefore you are not really saying anything different than the rest of us except perhaps it seems you are trying to say that it is sin to have anything.  Just does not appear you are making any sense.

Offline gospel

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2009, 11:20:15 AM »
Quote
Everyone works in the field, and we are each paid a denari, regardless of how much more or less we think we worked, if we simply did as the Lord commanded us.

Cally I'm sure you realize the context of that passage is Salvation.

No matter how much work you, me or the next guy does we all are equally Saved

Otherwise I don't understand your point.

Jesus Loves and accepts the rich as well as He does the poor Scripture shows that to Jesus all that matters is the condition of one's heart.

Is it repentant and receptive of His Lordship or is it hard, fixed and unresponsive to His voice.

An additional point: This parable also points out that those who try to justify themselves by the amount of work and effort get an attitude and get angry against those who get the same end result with a lot less work.

Thought I'd point that out....

And thanks for giving me my scripture meditation for the week in Jesus Name
gospel
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 11:40:28 AM by gospel »

Offline gospel

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2009, 11:36:52 AM »
Quote
...it would have been similar to the story of the Good Samaritan...or did you overlook that story of a well to do man's unselfish benevolence?

Quote
Even a child could see that it was this man's heart that was full of compassion, and not his money that is the point of this story.
 

Even a child could see that without money your compassion is just a good feeling. Jesus and the disciples actually FED the poor.

Their compassion moved them into action.

Habitat for Humanity thanks you for your compassion but they really love it when your compassion leads you to send some money to help them BUILD a house.

The Salvation Army thanks you for your compassion but they love it when you throw some money into the bucket to help them FEED, HOUSE and EMPLOY the needy.

Jesus rode in unto Jerusalem on a donkey...But remember it was given by a man who owned a donkey.

“If anyone says anything to you, you shall say, ‘The Lord has need of them,’ and immediately he will send them.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 11:43:04 AM by gospel »

Offline Cally

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Re: God or money?
« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2009, 02:00:12 PM »
Well, that was probably my mistake in my perception of your point, gospel . . .

I have to admit this discussion is a little hard to follow at times.