Christian Forums

God or Money? ::eek::

--A Bible Study ::preachit::

(1982)

Jesus said we must become like little children to enter his kingdom. (Luke 18:16-17) We need the kind of faith that little children have in their parents to meet all their needs.

We have found that it works. Our heavenly Father is more than able to take care of our needs if we will spend our lives working for him.

Everyone in the world worries about how they're going to feed and clothe themselves. But Jesus said what makes his followers unique from all other religions is that we do not worry about these things. Instead, we work to build God's kingdom, and trust God to care for our material needs. (Matthew 6:19-34) Jesus commands his followers not to work for the food that perishes (John 6:27), but to take his yoke and work for him instead. (Matthew 11:29-30)

Jesus called some fishermen to follow him and their immediate response was to quit their business in order to do so. (Matthew 4:18-22) He called a tax collector to follow him and his immediate response was to leave his job to follow Christ. (Luke 5:27-28) A rich young ruler wanted to follow Jesus and Jesus said for him to sell everything that he owned and give the proceeds to the poor, and then come and follow him. (Luke 18:22-25) A multitude came to Jesus and he said to them that unless they forsook everything that they owned, they could not be his disciples. (Luke 14:25, 33) To all of his followers Jesus said, "Birds don't have jobs and flowers don't weave cloth, yet God feeds and clothes them. So stop working for money and start working for God. Sell what you have and give to the poor; for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." (Luke 12:22-34) To the religious leaders of his day, Jesus said, "Give everything you have to the poor, and everything else will be clean for you." (Luke 11:41)

Jesus did not say that the choice was between working for God or working for the devil. He said it was between working for God or working for money. He says that, in our attempts to serve one "master" we are going to end up cheating the other. He says we will either learn to despise God or to despise money. (Luke 16:13-15) Which one do you despise?

Saint Paul said the love of money is the root of all evil. (I Timothy 6:10) He said we should stay away from people of "corrupt minds" who teach that wealth is a sign of God's blessing. (I Timothy 6:5)

Obviously God does bless some people with wealth. But we cannot say that our wealth is a gift from God if we have sold our souls (lives) to employers in order to obtain it. And when wealth truly comes to us as a gift from God, it comes for the express purpose of helping others... not so that we can spend it on luxuries for ourselves while much of the world goes to bed hungry each night.

Jesus said, "Woe to you who are rich, for you have received your comforts! Woe to you who are full, for you shall hunger!" (Luke 6:24-25) These are sobering words for those of us who are overweight while the rest of the world suffers from malnutrition.

Saint James said, "Hasn't God chosen the poor of this world, who are rich in faith, to inherit his kingdom? Yet you despise the poor. Don't the rich oppress true Christians and have them arrested for speaking the truth? Don't they blaspheme the name by which you have been called?" (James 2:5-7)

To the rich he says, "Weep and howl, you rich people, for the miseries that shall come upon you. Your riches rot in your fridges, rust in your garages, and collect moths in your closets while you exploit underpaid Third World labour to get it. It will all be a testimony against you in the last days." (James 5:1-6 paraphrased)

There was a dramatic difference between what Jesus taught about money and what the Old Testament taught. Jews gave 10% of their money and 1/7 of their time to God and more or less kept the rest for themselves. But Jesus taught 100% living by faith (i.e. forsaking all and living and witnessing together seven days a week), and that is what made the early church so powerful. (See Acts 2:44-45 and Acts 4:32-35.)

If you're going to follow Jesus at all, why not do it with your whole heart? Why not become like little children living in total dependence on God for your daily bread?

If you're going to follow Jesus at all, why not do it with your whole heart? Why not become like little children living in total dependence on God for your daily bread?

Sounds like what I did when I was homeless....the only thing is, God used the Salvation Army, the Lutherans,  Loaves and Fishes run by the Catholics, the Methodists, the Seventh Day Adventists and Church on the Way in Van Nuys California to feed me and give me free clothes.

When I was hungry and needed clothes all I had to do is know where to be and what time.

God really took care of me through those people.

Besides them, God made sure that a couple of Mexican restaurants would give me a buritto or a taco now and then, some donut shops would give me the day's left overs and some pizza shops would give me the mistakes and the orders people didn't pick up.

Aside from them when I would stand in front of Blockbusters and panhandle God would touch some other people to give me change or by me a Big Mac

....is that what you mean?

Otherwise I don't understand what you're talking about in practical sense.

Are you talking about manna from heaven and the quail God sent in the wilderness?

Please explain, cause one thing is for sure, when I look back over the goodness of God in my life, the best thing that God ever gave me was His Grace and Love, Hope through Salvation which led to me having a sound mind so I get a job. Now I can feed myself, take care of my family and help others whenever possible the same way God touched people to help me
 ::pondering::

Just out of curiosity "gospel", what were you doing during the time you were homeless? Were you able to reach out in any way to others to try and advance God's government (the kingdom of God)?

If not, then I would have to agree that you may have just been a bit of a lazy sponge, taking without giving anything back, which I certainly would NOT advocate.

However, if you were able to help out, even in some small way, then sure, God could have used many more like you, for "the harvest is plentiful but the laborers are few".

That statement seems like a bit of a challenge for us to spend more time finding ways to build the world that Jesus spoke of rather than what many profess to be "called" to, which is usually the workforce.

Does anybody else find it strange how so few are "called" into the ministry, yet proportionally so many (the broad way?) are "called" into anything BUT the ministry?

And how do we suppose Jesus sees this "calling" when He already specifically called us to go out and preach HIS good news (contained in HIS TEACHINGS) in all the world?

"Well did Isaiah prophecy of these people..."

If you've read some of my other posts you might see that the insinuation I'm trying to make is, as a general rule ....

....people God can use are not homeless, hungry panhandlers. They generally don't make good laborers. Jesus and His Disciples were not poor homeless people, they were people that put basically but all their available resources into the ministry and dedicated themselves to sustaining the ministry in that manner.

Bottom line many of them left businesses and having done so initially had resources to invest and to sustain themselves and the ministry...hence a treasury and a treasurer
 
Your run of the mill homeless person like I was lacked characteristics necessary to witness for Christ like "being faithful in least" and diligence for instance just 2 aspects of God's character and Fruit of the Spirit that come to mind. 

In 6 years of panhandling, washing car windows, flopping around..... I can honestly say that me and almost every person in my circumstance that I associated with were that way because we were not saved and didn't know Christ.
 
To the contrary most of us, almost all of us were in those situations because of drugs,  alcohol and in some cases heartache and morbid grief from the lost of a loved one or the heartache of a broken marriage or a broken home.

Most of us believed in God in a superficial manner but not were not members of a church before or during homelessness, most believed in the bible but did not really know it at all.

Rescue Missions are great places that help to turn many wayward lives such as these around.
   

While I would agree with your statement that

,

It seems pretty obvious that I've not been referring to becoming a "run of the mill homeless person". I would also consider many of these people (typically from Western countries) to be unfit in their current conditions.

I spend most of my days witnessing on the streets, (most often with biblical literature, sharing with those who want to talk) and would agree that Western homelessness usually revolves around drug and alcohol abuse, which is unfortunate, and I'm glad to see some of them getting off these substances.

But I still disagree that what these people need more than anything is just a "good job". I find it funny that joining the world and its workforce is often presented as the end all, be all when it comes to helping folks in these situations. We just end up building this system (the world) INSTEAD of God's system (or Kingdom of Heaven).

We live on earth.

We have a human body...an earth suit

Enterprise and industriousness ( work) are part of our earthly activity and endeavor


We are also spiritual beings

We inhabit our bodies. We cannot be all one and deny the other, for God has intentionally made us to be both.

The Kingdom of God is within us

People won't be saying, 'Look! Here it is!' or 'There it is!' because now the kingdom of God is among you."  Luke 17:21

You may have a farm or work in a mill. You may be a school teacher, a builder or a doctor.

You may be an engineer, a carpenter or a mason. You may be skilled in any number of areas

However it is......   

The way we live, glorify God, witness for Him and outwardly express His presence, these are the ways we manifest His kingdom and occupy until His return.

As a rule not working usually renders one with no means or resources and therefore ineffective in manifesting the glory of God because all of one's time is spent in meeting the essential needs of eating and having a place to sleep.

Therefore living a life of lack actually consumes more of ones time and takes away from the time one would otherwise spend in study, in ministry, in prayer and being an effective witness.
Hence it is the availability of resources that make it possible to manifest the Kingdom and not the lack thereof.

If you were street witnessing you could afford to because your basic needs were met. if not by your hand then by the hands of others who could used to support you in your work.

No matter how you slice it...... your food, clothing and shelter are/were the result of someone's work and finances, either yours or someone elses albeit by the Grace of God to Him be all the glory!!

Hi G,

I know we've decided to agree to disagree over on the thread "Why do we work for money?", but just for the sake of others reading this thread (and that one), I wanted to remind people that I am strongly advocating that people work, but just not let money be their motivation.

This is in response to this statement from you:


If you and others can accept this much, then we may gain some headway into more constructive dialogue.

Not sure where that passage is that says for us to quit our jobs and mooch off of people. And the Bible says God BLESSED Solomon with great wealth. The Bible says that the LOVE of money is the root of all evil. Not having it, working for it, using it wisely or enjoying it.

Sure, we should help others, that's a no brainer. But that's just one of the things that money can be used for that's not "evil." I plan on taking my wife to the beach at some point this summer with the money I've worked day and night to earn.

Money is simply what we trade our work for. So basically, I'm working 7 days a week to take my wife to the beach. Money is simply the result of work. Is work evil? Should we be asking if we should choose between God and work? Because the Bible says that the person who doesn't work shouldn't eat. And the Bible also says that a worker is worthy of his hire.

In one of Jesus' parables he compliments two wise servants who invested money and earned a good return. He chastised the one who buried the money in the dirt. So while we should help others when we can, the Bible says that the person who doesn't take care of his own family is worse than a nonbeliever. And it was God Himself who rewarded Solomon with wealth beyond what most of us could comprehend.

Amen! Thank you for telling your story. That's very touching. Being homeless and turning to God is a miracle in itself. I would never have pictured it as clear as you've described. Most people turn their backs on God when things aren't going the way they want them to. His love is wonderful...

Thanks again...

And because I keep reading spiritual sounding but non biblical things about money being posted, I wrote an article about this topic at http://www.gracecentered.com/what_the_Bible_says_about_money.htm. Hope it's informative.

I represent Christ everyday while at work, tis a great door of opertunity.

Just out of curiosity, are you really and administrator?

Anyways, I'm still shocked that you are working 7 days a week just to take your wife to the beach! Must be quite the beach! Is the shoreline diamond-encrusted or something? ::rolling::


But back to seriousness. No, the question has never been "God OR work". It has and continues to be God or money. Did you overlook the emphasis that I pointed out (AGAIN) about the fact that I advocate hard work?

Can anyone else see how we use Jesus when he says something that we assume supports money, i.e., the "talents" parable, and then have to skip right past Him (Jesus) and onto Solomon when it comes to talk of being "blessed beyond our ability to comprehend" in regards to worldly wealth? ::headscratch::

 ::amen!::

Admin those are very good points and much more succinct than my own....
 I gotta learn that !

This is a great article! I bookmarked it...Thank you

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, especially when there's so much good about the gospel of Jesus, but I think there are not just a few here who are just following Jesus' of their own imaginations, that bears no resemblance to the One who taught the Way to eternal life.

"gospel" (who has contributed most on this topic) has taken what the "Administrator" has said about a PARABLE regarding money (an attempt by Jesus to teach us something SPIRITUAL) as if it was a direct teaching or command, and I'm guessing "Admin" feels the same way, which is why he/she posted it.

But why do we "spiritualize" direct commands (teachings) and then turn direct commands into parables of some sort?

Does anybody see how the love of money could play a part in this?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ::amen!::$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ::preachit::$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ::announcment::$$$$$$$$$$$$ ::bowing::$$$$$$$$$$$$$

This is what it looks like the most popular teaching of our time, just like St. Paul said about this happening during the great apostasy (or "falling away") of the church. "...and they will be lovers of money and themselves".

It's a shocking shame, but prophecy unfolds nonetheless.

idiglove,

As you pointed out, the Bible says it is the LOVE of money that is wrong. Not HAVING money. Why not reading the article that I posted and see all the Bible passages before arguing against a straw man?

Hi Lee,

I read your article, but I have to say, not to offend you, but as constructive criticism, that I'm still not impressed with the gist of what it's getting at.

For instance, why didn't you include ANYTHING that Jesus has to say on the matter of money (or other names He might use for it like "mammon of unrighteousness", and "filthy lucre")?

This is what I've been getting at this whole time. We skip right past what GOD IN THE FLESH IN THE FORM OF THE SON had to say about money to quote some pretty flimsy references to people being blessed with wealth.

I would agree that Solomon was impressive in that he could've asked God for anything, but he chose WISDOM above all. Perhaps because he wasn't busy chasing after money $$$$$$$ ::prayinghard::$$$$$$$$$$$ like so many of us, God decided that he could be trusted and blessed him greatly.

Motive is all important in all of this.

You answered you own question!

When Jesus used those terms, it was in reference to the motives by which the money was gotten

This is a moot point by now it seems you even realize you're beating a dead horse

Instead of cutting to the chase which is as Lee correctly pointed out.... the "Love" of money is the root of all evil.



The "Love" of money makes the money "mammon of unrighteousness", and "filthy lucre not merely having it

Wow.... after all that on 2 threads, you answered your own question!!

 ::disco::

(NOTE: This thread links directly to the main page under the heading "What Does the Bible Have to Say About Money?" I have re-started this discussion after some further thought and prayer about the title).



Just a suggestion...


How about we consider re-naming this discussion topic to this:

"What Does Jesus Have to Say About Money"

instead of "What Does the Bible Have to Say About Money"?

That way, I think it would clarify where we, as Christians, should head first into scripture for guidance (i.e. Jesus and his teachings).

After all, how many Christians do you know that really put into practice what they read from Leviticus? For example, can you recall the last time you stoned someone for committing adultery? Or how about the last time you tore your house down (brick by brick) because it had some mold in it?

 On the contrary, this would (or at least should) never be the case in regard to Jesus' actual teachings and how timelessly they relate to everything a Christian (or "little Christ") needs to know about all of life and how to live it.

Yes Lee really is admin.
As has been pointed out it is the love of money that is the problem.  Looking at what Jesus said will not change that biblical fact.   I personally believe God has blessed me so I can help others.  I also like the example of Rick Warren of Saddle Back fame.  The money he has received from purpose driven church ETC. has been used to stop taking a salary from the church, he payed back all the money that the church had paid him since he started it and is using it for many other good causes.  Nothing Jesus said would condemn this use of money.  Why don't you find another hobby horse to ride this one is getting tired.

Yes, that's true, and we are both in agreement about that fact. But I do find it more than a little strange that people, for some reason, always feel like they have to clarify that point, as if I have been confused about it.


Right again!

But what WOULD most likely change after referring to the things Jesus specifically said about money would be our perception of what it means to be "blessed". Think about it... Jesus said "blessed are the poor", and then went even further to clarify that point by also saying "WOE to the rich".

Wow. And what is it that makes it so hard for a RICH person to get into heaven anyway, Jesus?


Also, notice how the only thing that got the rich man in trouble with God was just simply ignoring Lazarus outside his gate (or gated community)?

You see, the reason I brought this up to begin with was that I was just disappointed to see how the teachings of Jesus are almost always left out of these kind of discussions, as if we think he couldn't possibly have anything relevant to say about it.

No, John, this is not a "hobby horse", but an attempt to allow Jesus' teachings on the matter to be given some proper airtime, as it's really the other side of this debate that has been worn out and people are looking for something deeper than the same old dung heap.


BTW, Jesus said, "when you give gifts to the poor, do it secretly", so how is it that we all seem to know about all the good things Rick Warren has done?

Can anyone else see just how much opposition there is to pretty much everything Jesus taught? He said "...and you will be hated by all men for my name's sake", and no one appears sees any contradiction when we start shouting praises of some of the most "respectable leaders" in the church. If we are not "hated by all men" for the sake of Jesus' gospel, chances are we sold out long ago.


As arrogant as  it sounds, most of what you will find on this forum will be hobby horse competitions, whereas all that I can be accused of is a radical committment to Jesus' teachings, and simply reminding people about what he said.

So if you and others are tired of the gospel (or teachings) of Jesus Christ, maybe you should consider joining some other organization that shares your disdain. How about "Atheists United"?

idiglove

You are not teaching any new truth.  Everyone hear is trying to follow Christ and understand that the love of money is the root of evil.  There is no virtue in being rich or poor in itself but ones attitude toward their own situation. 
 No one here is rejecting the teaching of Jesus.  Rejecting your understand of scripture is not the same thing.  You are not Jesus nor His prophet.

A guy like Rick Warren can't win.  If he doesn't give his wealth away or does it in secret folks say he is just in it for the money.  hen he pays back everything he has been paid and does not take a salary so he can be like Paul and gives much to help those with physical problems he is "not doing it in secret".  Give me a break!

 

And I never claimed to be doing that. The teachings of Jesus are over 2,000 years old by now.

However, most people here (including you) would probably realize that the only thing unique about what I am sharing is that these teachings are almost universally NOT taught in the modern churches, and there is an even greater unlikelihood of them being practiced.

Here are a few in case they've been forgotten already:

"No one can serve 2 masters, for he will love one and hate the other, or else be loyal to one and despise the other. You can not serve (which means to work for) God AND money" Mt. 6:24-33


"Sell what you have and give to the poor" Luke 11, 12, and 14.

"Do not store up treasures on the face of the earth". (I'll let you look that one up).



If what you are saying is true, I'd be curious to hear YOUR interpretation of those things above that Jesus taught.

But I've gotta warn you, most people word their responses in such a way that has Jesus saying the exact OPPOSITE of what he taught and was practiced by the first century Christians.

BTW, it wasn't me who said that our gifts to the poor are to be done in secret. Wanna guess who it was? If people have a problem with it, they'll just have to talk to THE Manager about it. ::smile::

1.  Love of money being the root of evil is commonly taught in most churches.

2.  Jesus was saying the same thing don't put your faith in money or treasures.  He did not tell the rich young ruler to sell his possesions because they were evil but because his trust or faith was in the treasure.  (This was a story to teach the evil of putting your trust in anything other than Jesus.  It was not a command for everyone to sell all their stuff.

3. There is no sin in being poor or wealthy.

Lets not forget Luke 18:24, "Jesus looked at him and said, How hard is it for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God? Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go thru the eye of a needle, then for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."  Seems pretty cut and dried.

Gen 47:15 And when money failed in the land of Egypt, and in the land of Canaan, all the Egyptians came unto Joseph, and said, Give us bread: for why should we die in thy presence?  for the money faileth.

God never fails!

And your point is as relates to this topic?

That may be true, but what are we doing about it? Which brings me to my next question:

What do you think would happen if Christians, like Jesus, the apostles, and the first century Church mention in Acts 2 and 4, stopped working for money (Mt 6:24-33 "...you can not serve God and money") and began working for love (God)?

Imagine that!!

That would be the revival or revolution the church so often prays for, but it will take much more self-denial than is currently popular practice.

And that is what is holding us back----our own greed and unwillingness to lay down our lives to preach (and practice) the gospel throughout the entire world. We are just absolutely certain that it is everyone else's job to do, while we stay in our comfortable little cubicles, feeling justified that "at least I contribute financially each month".

But God wants YOU to go out and help harvest all those souls that are perishing.



Uh, actually, I left out the "rich young ruler" verse on purpose to show that in Luke 11, 12, and 14 Jesus makes it clear that this IS a command given to anyone "who wishes to be My disciple".

Good try though, Johnb, but now that you realize he's talking to you too, I'm sure you'd be more than willing to let go of all that stuff so you can more easily get on with the "great commission", eh? Good riddance to all that junk that's been holding you back, right? ::disco::


Well John, it all depends on what you do (or DON'T do) with that wealth. "How can you say you love God, whom you haven't seen, when you see your brother or sister in need and do nothing to help them with your material goods?" 1st John 3:17. Also, the story of the rich man and Lazarus is another great example to refer to, as well as "do not store up treasures (wealth) on the face of the earth".

idglove
There are many stories and parables in Luke 11, 12 and 14.  They all are carring the same message.  If you love anything, father mother wealth whatever more than God or if it keeps you from serving God then it must go.  He is not saying that everyone must get rid of every earthy possesion to be pleasing to God .  That is a gross misrepresentation of what scripture is saying. 
Where is the evidence that the apostles all sold everything that they had and depended solely on God to supply their needs.  Paul was a tent maker and continued that vocation to support himself.

It's simple Brother

I'll post it again and you pray on after you have read everyone's post again

Gen 47:15 And when money failed in the land of Egypt, and in the land of Canaan, all the Egyptians came unto Joseph, and said, Give us bread: for why should we die in thy presence?  for the money faileth.

God never fails!

It is written money fails.

it is not written where God fails.

do you get it now?

Ozell
No offense intended.  Yes God never fails and we should not place our faith in things of this world.
However, the OP is is trying to say that it is sin to have money and we must give everything away to be pleasing to God.  I hope you are not saying the same thing.

You're absolutely right.

Joanna the wife of Cuza, the manager of Herod's household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means.
Luke 8:3

As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. Matthew 27:57

and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed
him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn
Luke 2:7
 
Because there was no room, not because they were poor and destitute

On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh Matthew 2:11

Unfortunately many people believe there were only 3 Magi - (strates) foreign diplomats who visited Jesus. But the citing of 3 is no where in scripture. History supports that these were noble men from Babylon who knew of the prophecy of the Messiah because of the writings of Daniel.

Riding through what would have been to them as Babylonians, hostile Roman territory they certainly would have not come in a small group but rather a caravan.

Whats my point?
Do you think they gave Jesus little trinkets of gold or gold worthy of a King such as what Kings, nobles and dignitaries give other Kings, nobles and dignitaries.
Case in point Sheba and Solomon.

Long story short Jesus was not poor and destitute as tradition would have us believe ...neither was He homeless

John 1:39   He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.

Below is some further info on Frankincense and Myrrh, you'll find these were very valuable gifts, especially during Jesus day....and one must seriouslly doubt the Magi- strates traveled hundreds of miles to give Jesus trinkets and a few sticks of incense

Be that as it may, many people will insist upon sticking to and believing traditions passed down by men not found in scripture rather than that which is obvious according to scripture

    *  Almost all frankincense comes from western Oman, where it is used for everything from deodorant and toothpaste to food and drink flavoring.
    * Frankincense and myrrh were so expensive in Europe that southern Arabia became known as Arabia Felix, “Arabia the Blessed.”
    * Because frankincense was in high demand from Europe to Asia, the kingdoms of southern Arabia became an integral part of global economy with shipping connections to India, the Mediterranean and the Silk Road.
    * Some of the earliest uses of the camel as a domesticated beast of burden took place in southern Arabia in order to make overland transport of frankincense and myrrh possible.
    * The Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Israelites and numerous other cultures used frankincense and myrrh as part of their religious ceremonies.
    * Frankincense and myrrh were extensively used in burial rituals as an embalming material, an offering to the departed and a means to cover the odor of the dead body.
    * The Roman emperor, Nero, burned an entire year’s harvest of frankincense at the funeral of his favorite mistress.
    * Frankincense has traditionally been used as a remedy for a wide variety of afflictions, including ulcers, hypertension, nausea, fever, indigestion, chest coughs and post-childbirth recovery.
    * The smoke from burning frankincense drives away mosquitoes and other flying insects, reducing incidences of malaria in afflicted regions.
    * Myrrh is also used medicinally to treat sore throats, cramps, inflammation, colic and digestive problems.

No offense taken

 Jn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

1: I said in mine heart, Go to now, I will prove thee with mirth, therefore enjoy pleasure: and, behold, this also is vanity.
Deut 14:29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.

Deut 28:12 The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.

Deut 30:9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:

"gospel", why do you think it is that when you (or others) offer some input on this subject it is ok, but if I (in particular) do the same thing it is usually regarded as "beating a dead horse".

The point being that most of us have already heard similar arguments to the ones that you're raising, so if anything, that is where the beating of a dead horse is taking place.

On the other hand, the things that have been shared about Jesus blessing the poor, while nearly cursing the rich ("woe to you who are rich") do indicate something quite a bit more unique to the churches. I say nearly because hell would be the final "curse" dished out to people like the one in Jesus' story of Lazarus (the beggar) and the rich man.

 Also, keep in mind the teaching that "it is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle (and it really is a sewing needle that Jesus is talking about) than it is for a rich man to get into heaven".

And about this quote:

John 1:39   He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.

Does it say anything about a house, apartment, or some other clues that would tell us that it is definitely INdoors, as opposed to sleeping out under the stars somewhere? That would certainly seem to fit in more with the statement Jesus made that "the Son of Man has no place to lay his head". Surely Jesus would know that you can literally lay your head to sleep in every single direction. But the point he appears to be making is that, unlike birds and foxes who have little "homes", he doesn't.

Also, I don't think you'll find anyone here arguing that Jesus was destitute, since that implies that God (the Father) wasn't doing a very good job of looking after His son. If that were the case, you might even find people throwing around the scripture that says "if you don't take care of your own family, you're worse than an infidel"!

What I am saying is that Jesus was poor in the sense that he didn't have any house or possessions to show except for some clothes that he was wearing. From this it appears that he actually practiced what he preached, i.e. not "storing up treasures on the face of the earth".

Hey, BTW "g", a quick little bit of very interesting trivia for you:

How much cash did Solomon receive from the queen of Sheba?  It's a pretty surprising and significant amount.

.

Obviously the average believer and MOST non believers are in agreement with the myth of the poor destitute Jesus.
Ask any non believer something about Jesus, they'll tell you He was poor and homeless and they don't even have, read or believe the bible.
They get their information from the traditions of men passed down. These traditions do not require bible knowledge understanding or belief, just word of mouth that generally becomes accepted as truth even though they have no basis in scripture.

This makes it even more sad that people who DO believe in the bible are blinded to the truth of it due to their blind denial of scripture and blind acceptance of tradition.

Case in point...I made several scriptural proofs that Jesus was not poor nor did he despise the rich, yet you desperately hold on to the traditions that say otherwise.
That's your privilege but far from beating a dead horse
... my posts on this topic are among the rare chances for many people to hear the truth according to scripture but in essence myself and a few others hold the minority in this matter while those who cling to tradition maintain the majority viewpoint.


Be serious
Even a child can see it was the rich mans heart that was at fault not his money. If he had been generous and kind to the beggar, it would have been similar to the story of the Good Samaritan...or did you overlook that story of a well to do man's unselfish benevolence?

 

Gospel to cut right to the heart about what we're really talking about, God's command is to love one's neighbor as himself.

So, John the Baptist said "whoever has two tunics should share with the one who has none."

What, then, does the zero-tunics guy do? SURVIVE, while those unwilling to carry out that command worry about losing huge houses, jewelry, toys, AND their tunics while watching the poor suffer and make up philosophies and twist scripture (which writes all about such people) to condemn the poor without helping.

And I think God was/is incredibly pleased with you for doing that.  ::tippinghat:: And even THEN, God shows that the poor are not ineffective because of lack of resources: "silver and gold I do not have, but what I have I give you."

Everyone works in the field, and we are each paid a denari, regardless of how much more or less we think we worked, if we simply did as the Lord commanded us.

Money, then, should be seen as a tool to fulfill that command, in some form or another, nothing more--not something that gives life and happiness in itself.

Excellent points, Cally.

This one is of particular interest and very clearly expresses what I think is happening here:


"gospel", maybe you can help clarify things for those of us who are (for some strange reason) unable to see what it is you are really trying to communicate with all of your defenses of the rich and their stored up wealth? What's the end result of your understanding of the scriptures?

While you're working on that, can you also clarify why it is that you (and others who share your perspective) have to steer completely away from the actual things Jesus taught to defend your position, all the while attempting to use background details  (again, not actual teachings) to justify it?

Please do consider how significant that point is, "gospel". Either Jesus' teachings (and the rest of the NT) will support ONE of our positions, or else it will just come crashing down on the sand heap it was built on.

But I will say that you are correct about this observation:


However, I fail to see why everything seems to come back to money being good, as in this:


Even a child could see that it was this man's heart that was full of compassion, and not his money that is the point of this story.
 

The end result of a lot of that grumbling is Jesus' words: "whoever holds onto his life will lose it."

Hence people thinking that "the economy" is the problem. Incidentally "the economy" did not get fixed back in the 30's until people's attitudes changed--and that happened to be the wake-up call that was WWII.

People got their minds on something: "Purpose." And then "the economy" got fixed. It is the Lord who enables a person to be happy with little, and it is someone's arrogance that causes him to be discontent with much.

I think the other reason for pooling resources in Acts (and I don't think anyone was forced) was for class--not that anyone should be forced, to be sure--but I'm thinking that equal lifestyles makes it easier for people to relate among each other.

The one who merely does what is commanded of him is a worthless servant, Christ said.

I was referring to Mathew 20: 1-15.

Finally I don't have anything against people who are prosperous. I mean I think of Job who was, and mentioned that his door was always open to travelers (an implication that the rich tend to share things in some form or another). Anyway yes I hate a money-centered attitude, and so much theology these days is based on getting stuff from God . . . well, that's good but incomplete: it's meant to be INVESTED in some form. Maybe a wealthy person is doing that (and how so is none of the rest of our business, usually). But in general the government helps the poor, the government restores people to the ability to work toward their callings--several things that the church is definitely supposed to do for its members. Pretty embarrassing, although many, many of those organizations are Christian, so fortunately the same effect seems to be happening to a degree.

Idiglove
No one is saying money or riches are good or bad.  It is ones attitude toward them that makes riches or money evil. It is also true that Jesus said it is more difficult for the truly rich to have the right heart or attitude.  Therefore you are not really saying anything different than the rest of us except perhaps it seems you are trying to say that it is sin to have anything.  Just does not appear you are making any sense.

Cally I'm sure you realize the context of that passage is Salvation.

No matter how much work you, me or the next guy does we all are equally Saved

Otherwise I don't understand your point.

Jesus Loves and accepts the rich as well as He does the poor Scripture shows that to Jesus all that matters is the condition of one's heart.

Is it repentant and receptive of His Lordship or is it hard, fixed and unresponsive to His voice.

An additional point: This parable also points out that those who try to justify themselves by the amount of work and effort get an attitude and get angry against those who get the same end result with a lot less work.

Thought I'd point that out....

And thanks for giving me my scripture meditation for the week in Jesus Name
gospel

Even a child could see that without money your compassion is just a good feeling. Jesus and the disciples actually FED the poor.

Their compassion moved them into action.

Habitat for Humanity thanks you for your compassion but they really love it when your compassion leads you to send some money to help them BUILD a house.

The Salvation Army thanks you for your compassion but they love it when you throw some money into the bucket to help them FEED, HOUSE and EMPLOY the needy.

Jesus rode in unto Jerusalem on a donkey...But remember it was given by a man who owned a donkey.

“If anyone says anything to you, you shall say, ‘The Lord has need of them,’ and immediately he will send them.” Matthew 21:3

You need to actually read the scriptures in the Light of Redemption instead of the brightness of tradition.....
Remember ID it is you that holds the majority view, it is you that agree with non believers, it is you that agree with tradition.
It is I and several others pointing out what the bible actually says and what Jesus actually taught.

I like the way you consistently avoid commenting on the rich man in Luke 19.

Funny it comes right after the rich man in Luke 18

Laying both stories side by side, knowing the God does not contradict Himself .... what do you believe the Lord is saying by the way he dealt with 2 different rich men?

Could it possibly have something to do with the way each responded?

I am not rich, very far from it and like most of us I too grew up believing as you believe.
 I know that viewpoint very well.
All I'm asking you is to Show us all that you have looked at the scriptures AGAIN putting some thought into the other perspective!

Rich people are not doomed to hell

Well, that was probably my mistake in my perception of your point, gospel . . .

I have to admit this discussion is a little hard to follow at times.

Its just amazing to me how anyone could believe in a poor destitute homeless Jesus despite all the scripture to the contrary.

Non believers and people who do not actually read the bible I can understand because most of them believe what they believe out of the commonality of tradition

Common sense dictates that if some kings and magistrates traveled hundreds of miles to give some gifts to see the baby Jesus, honoring Him as a King.... indeed those gifts had to be somewhat significant

It just seems no matter what scriptures one posts, someone who loves tradition will continue to cling to those and discount the Truth of the Scriptures.

For Gods sakes, someone, some believer, some follower of Jesus.... owned the upper room and we know that seated at least 120 people.  ::pondering::

We know whoever owned it was not poor.
Neither did the average poor person own fishing vessels either and neither do I

Think about it ::pondering::

That's a bit of a stretch you're making there John.

For starters, we're not really saying the same thing. What I am saying is only that Jesus said that we can't:

1) ...work for both God AND money. It has to be one or the other (according to Him at least).

2) ...be his disciples (Christians) if we don't forsake all that we have---and the first Church in the books of Acts took that as a literal command. Is that really what our 21st century churches seem to be saying and actually doing?

3) ...store up treasures on the earth where moths eat, rust destroys and thieves try to steal. There appears to be plenty of evidence that Jesus and the early church lived this out. And even when they did have resources, it was shared equally among all of them, so much so that they didn't even believe in "private property" (EEEKKK! They were communists! "Billybob, go get some wood together, we gonna burn some socialists at the stake tonight!")  ::readytoeat::

But there are some who claim that they are in the minority with their views. Well don't fret, cause there are many more out there who can sympathize. Take this video about the ministry of a man named Creflo Dollar(!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCS0YHm_58c

So then you are saying we can;t work for money?   How do you make a living, buy food and pay for shelter?

So you want to pick out Creflo Dollar as an example of greed heh?

The first clue that you are on the wrong side in the video is the presence of Al Sharpton....I totally forget to remember that he is supposed to be a minister of the gospel.

Nothing at all about what he says or does is scripturally based. Next you'll be carting out Jesse Jackson...PLEASE DON'T!

It'll just take more wind out of your sail

Those 2 people want poor people to stay poor so they can get rich off of them. They need the poor and I've never heard either of them so much quote Jesus or say anything nearing something of God!

What you and others ( especially non believers ) call prosperity gospel is actually freeing people to believe they do not have to remain poor. It is freeing them to believe that God desires them to have good things. That the blessings of God are just as available for them as it is for others.  

You get a big fat zero for agreeing with Al Sharpton....sorry

The other preacher in Atlanta doesn't know the scriptures and doesn't know of any theologian that understands Jesus was not poor....what bible is he reading?

So why don't you study for yourself

And why don't you address the question why did Jesus have a treasurer?

Why don't you address the gold and valuables given Him at birth?

Why don't you address the 2 rich men in Luke 18 and Luke 19 side by side?

Why don't you address the wealth of Job, Solomon, Abraham and Isaac to name a few?

Why don't you address the fact that in numerous verses the Book of Proverbs equates poverty with being a curse and a robber!

Why don't you address the fact that the blessings of God listed in the Book of Deuteronomy make it clear that the blessings of God equate with prosperity and the lack of those blessings are equated with being cursed with poverty?  

Try reading Deuteronomy 28 for once ...then argue with God. Tell him how Deut 28 and Proverbs 10:22 don't make any sense to you.
Tell Him how you don't need His blessings because you thinks it's a blessing to be poor.  


Allow me to ask you this , How many men has God used you to keep from continuing in the cycle of going in and out of prison?


How many job programs, feeding programs and housing programs have you established?
 
No commentary, just answer how many?

How many schools for children has God used you to build?

How many prostitutes has God used you to help start a new life and leave the life of the streets?

How many homes have you built?

Lets go to Joyce Meyers

How many hospital clinics have you built in India?

How many medical ships do you send down the Amazon with free medical clinics?

How many homes and shattered lives did you help to rebuild after the Tsunami?

How many orphanages have you built and support?

Lets go to Victory Outreach International

How many former gang-bangers and drug addicts have you turned to Jesus away from lives of crime, violence into productive citizens

How many residential rehab centers have you built in America, Africa and Australia


How many sex slaves have you bought out of captivity....Yes bought as in paid for?
Did you know there are some ministries that raise cash to pay for the freedom of women and children who have been sold into sex slavery?

How many Sudanese have you bought out of slavery?...YES bought as in purchased with money!!
There are ministries that do this as well

Some people are just talk while on the other hand God blessed some people to be a blessing to others

People who think Jesus and the disciples were a rag tag destitute group of homeless people usually attend churches that are just as ineffective as a group of rag tag homeless people.

Can't help the homeless people because they're one step away from being homeless themselves.
Churches I support have prison ministry and a place for ex cons to live when they get out.
They have a support system that helps them get jobs and back on their feet.

Churches I support have childrens homes for orphans women homes for battered women and street women that want to change their lives.

Churches I support build houses in Mexico and dig wells in Africa...the truth is ID you can't be a broke church and do any of that.

Churches I support give scholarships to college
 
When the church members see the work being done in the name of Jesus to give people a better life, they don't mind giving, sowing and tithing and they don't mind if the Pastor of a church is living in a manner deserving of one who is giving so much to so many
..why should that bother you, except for you want with all your heart to believe Jesus was broke and homeless and more than that you believe he wants all of us to be broke and homeless to.

Look around the world...nations that are impoverished with crippling poverty are usually nations where the gospel has not been accepted. When just a handful of the people in those nations do receive the gospel somehow they manage to rise up above the ash heaps of those who do not and they become a blessing to their communities, the ones who have food and clothes to give, shelter and are able to share out of their abundance with those who do not....just look around ID

As we speak there's an explosion of the Gospel in China, coincidentally hand in hand with prosperity...

...should they stay impoverished?

Next North Korea...where people are starving. Franklin Graham, Billy's son was just recently there.
Once those people get a hold of the gospel their lives will change for the better as well
 

Gospel
 ::amen!:: ::clappingoverhead::

Hallelujah....God is Good and every good and perfect Gift comes down from the Father of Lights!

If its good I want it and
 
I promise to God before every man I will use what God gives me to further His Gospel and be a blessing to others in any way He leads me!

Sorry "g", not much time at the moment to respond to your arsenal of... "inquiries".

I'll just start by saying that I prefer to follow Jesus' teaching about NOT "blowing my own horn" (like the hypocrites), who announce all the things that they have done for the poor.

You can do what you want, but I would suggest putting a bit of a lid on it, as you may very well be losing your reward in heaven for these good works, especially considering you've just received the praises of men (well, Johnb in particuar)!

Let it be known also that the video link I gave you was not at all intended to be a plug for Al Sharpton (even though what he said was fair enough), but an attempt to expose people like Creflo Dollar, whom I'm sorry (but not surprised) to hear that you actually support!

"g", although you may be upset with me for asking you to cite Jesus' actual teachings as references for what it is you are defending, please don't assume that I'll humor your demands by ignoring what Jesus taught to help you in your campaign against His actual gospel for the sake of "doctrines taught by demons" (1st Timothy 4).

In case you missed it, I was actually tooting the horns of others, merely giving you sound practical examples of good ground. You don't seem to read well but I assure you, if you read it again you'll see I was talking about the work of others as compared with someone else who probably does nothing near those he criticizes ::pondering::

Translated - good ground means a person or an entity where you can feel reasonably assured that your God given money, time and prayers will help yield and bring about a harvest for the Kingdom.

See why you really shouldn't cite scriptures that are out of context, it makes it appear you're repeating what someone told you rather than having actually read it for yourself.  


Hm-m-m-m ....let me see,
We have Creflo Dollar on the one hand and Al Sharpton on the other....hmmm lets see... One actually teaches the Word and successfully pastors thousands.
The other uses the media to get his way through race baiting, lying, wielding political power and strong arming government officials and corporations into supporting his own self serving agenda....this is a no brainer, but to each his own. I'll stand with Pastor Dollar, obviously you and Rev Al agree  ( Amos 3:3 )

Furthermore If you actually knew anything about the man, you'd know that Creflo Dollar teaches on all aspects of the word and is staunchly opposed to ungodliness.
Also
He actually does a multitude of things to build up the lives of people and further the Kingdom. There is simply no comparison at all between the political activist Al Sharpton and a man dedicated to the Lord like Pastor Creflo Dollar.

He's not my pastor but I respect and support any man or woman of God who teaches the Word and actually does something to be a blessing to others.

Unfortunately for you, you'd probably consider most of them prosperity preachers.
But also unfortunately for you, that attitude will probably prevent you from doing one iota of the things these people do for others in the Name of Jesus....the thing about it is...they DO NOT toot their own horn so you won't know what they do unless you look into it.

Myself I amazed at some of the things God has enable these ministries to accomplish.

Are there some unscrupulous preachers using the bible in greed to exploit others simply to make themselves rich ...of course!
 But you should know that for sure and know exactly who they are and have a case against them before you slander and malign a person's character by labeling everyone who teaches something you don't understand with one broad brush stroke....I think that's called bearing false witness.


By the authority vested in me you hereby banned from quoting another verse out of context until you can explain the difference between the 2 rich men in Luke 18 and Luke 19
 ::smile::

Just joking but you really need to address this matter, otherwise you are giving the appearance you are purposely avoiding admitting Jesus SAVED a rich man and that also a number of Jesus disciples were also very well to do

Gospel I would say amen and give you praise but that might make you a hypocrite. ::frustrated::

Just when you think you have seen every weird doctrine out there...

Ohh g, you are a funny creature!


It's nice to finally see where you are getting your biblical understanding from.

Did you happen to see the part in the video where someone (Jim Wallis) is clearly pointing out that the so-called "prosperity gospel" is heretical?

This kind of preaching was vehemently fought against among the early Christians, but it has become nearly reputable in a world that has made the love of money acceptable.

I also enjoyed the preacher who was able to relate the fact that people like pastor "Dollar" have essentially the same message of many recent hip-hop artists, who have albums with titles like "get rich or die tryin'". How far we have strayed...all conveniently packaged in something that calls itself christianity. ::droppingjaw::

Anyway, regarding the passage in Luke 19 about ol' Zac, this ground has already been covered.

Long story short is that Zac said he would give half of all his goods to the poor. Ok that's pretty good.

Then he says that he will repay ANYONE he cheated (which is how he actually made money. Zac had to shake people down for MORE than what Caesar had taxed them in order to get his own share) FOUR TIMES what he extorted from them. Now if anyone can imagine how many people he was likely to have cheated and how much that would come to, poor old Zac wouldn't have much (if anything) left afterwards.

So what's your point, Creflo?


And now that I've humored your demand, don't you think it would be good of you to return the favor by simply citing Jesus actual teachings (not parables, but direct teachings or commands) that support your prospertity gospel, rather than grabbing at all those straws to try and prove your case?

Oh and BTW, you or Johnb never did tell me how much money the queen of Sheba brought to Solomon. Wanna make a guess?

Seems to me you're so busy adding up Zacchaus money you haven't stopped to see his heart was the difference between him and the rich man in Luke 18.

You should stop counting other people's blessings, get your own and use them to help others.

That would be a lot more like Kingdom building then it is to tear people down, without knowing their hearts, not knowing their works simply because YOU BELIEVE God has blessed them too much!

If you had a church with 3,4 or 5 or 10 multi millionaire members... I'm sure they would bless you too ....as long as they considered your ministry a blessing to them and their family.

In your eyes millionaires are evil people....oh, maybe only millionaire that believe in or preach about Jesus.

You should spend more time examining your own motives

Worrying about what others have is a silly waste of time...its called backbiting, gossip and slander ...disguised in the name of God as if you are doing God a favor.

Besides that it reeks of leftist political activism....yuk!

Sorry but it does

 ::wizard::

hey gospel,
sorry for the dragon thingy.
it won't happen again. Have
a good rest of the day bro.
God bless you. ::smile::

 ::amen!::

God bless you too!

 ::amen!::  ::amen!:: ::amen!::

Well, I know that it is said about Christ that being the Son of God he did not grasp, and he did happen to be born in a manger. He definitely has rich friends.

Nothing wrong with having resources to put back toward the Lord.  ::smile::

Thanks Cally!



Meaning as Deity He lowered Himself to be born of a woman and put on flesh as to identify Himself with man


There was no room in the inn, meaning they had money to get a room


Definitely

Exactly!

I have to admit I've avoided the sort of person for a while that says "I'm being poor/sick for the Lord"

. . . and I think, "what, if somebody handed you a check for a million bucks you'd throw it out? Or if someone handed you a cure for cancer you'd throw it out? Nah, you'd be saying 'praise the Lord,' and such."

I mean on the one hand it is God's will for us to struggle through trials, but since the trials came from God in the first place they're supposed to be redeemable in some way. Lazarus was poor and it was clearly God's will for him to die poor, and take him up to heaven, but hey, he spent time begging and trying to get out of his situation.

Although there are certainly folks on this board that think the "prosperity gospel" is acceptable Christian doctrine, I for one (and I'm know not alone), see it for the damnable lie that it is.

For starters, you won't find it anywhere in Jesus' teachings. That's why they have to add the word "prosperity"to it because it's a later invention that Christ must have "overlooked" somehow.

That should silence the argument right there, but because we moderns have a tendency to demote Jesus' actual teachings by searching anywhere else in the bible to support our greed (which happens to be idolatry), it doesn't.

BTW, for those who were interested in the point of trivia about how much the queen of Sheba brought for Solomon, it was 666 talents worth of gold. Thankfully, one wiser than Solomon visited the earth and shared all His love and wisdom with even the poorest of the poor for free.

But back to the point of the OP, it really is a choice between working for God or working for money folks. Look closely at what Jesus said and did, and forget all about me and you'll see that this is far more consistent with Christ's life and teachings than any other attempts to get us bowing down in front of another (figurative) golden cow.