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Offline Reformer

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God’s Judgments Upon Digressive Nations
« on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 20:56:11 »
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
_______________________________
 
God’s Judgments Upon Digressive
Nations

[Is the Corona-Virus God’s judgment
upon modern-day Nations?]

    We dare not forget that period of history when God’s judgments were poured out upon Egypt—a degenerate nation. Ten horrific plagues were brought to bear upon Pharaoh and his people. Throughout history our God has intervened, either directly or indirectly, in the affairs of man. The scriptures detail numerous occasions when our God demonstrated His power and control.

    One paramount bit of history occurred when the Lord used the Roman Army in A. D. 70 to remove Israel’s Temple, her sacrifices, her rituals, her ceremonies, her feast days, her form of religious and political government, her Holy City Jerusalem, her dominion, her kingdom, and everything else in between. The Lord, after much patience and longsuffering with Israel, nullified what He had promised her and finally divorced her when she, after a long period of waywardness, rebelliousness, and spiritual adultery turned her back upon Him and rejected Him as King.

    It was over—forever—for Israel as a Holy Nation! God had had enough of His one-time wife who persisted in spiritual adultery. Even Jesus foretold of the disaster that would come upon His Father’s one-time wife when He said, “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near...They [Jewish people] will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations” [Luke 21:20-24].  The path of old Israel as a Holy Nation had ended, never to rise again.

    I could recite more history of God’s judgments upon peoples and nations, but you get the idea. So what about the corona-virus? Is this disease another of God’s judgments upon wayward peoples and nations? I don’t have either a definitive Yes or No answer. Nor do those doomsday prophets out there in “Phantasy Land” who are sensationalizing this current bit of history for monetary profit.

    As you might recall, 20 years ago the Y2K event was sensationalized for profit by counterfeit prophets. Tens of thousands of gullible believers fell head-long into their soul-stirring and thrilling rhetoric and purchased their tapes and books. These false “prophets” capitalized upon the occasion and “collected” hundreds of thousands of dollars from suckered believers. None of their “prophecies” materialized       

So I caution you to be mindful of false prophets who are even now spewing their “cure” for the corona-virus malady. Just the other day, I saw an ad on TV pertaining to this very thing. When a person, believer or unbeliever, steps into God’s role by either predicting or prophesying future or current events that are in His hands only, he has, in my opinion, involved himself in affairs that belong only to the God of creation. He dare not tamper with God’s timetable in an attempt to fleece God’s sheep and innocent citizens.
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 22:20:28 by Reformer »

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God’s Judgments Upon Digressive Nations
« on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 20:56:11 »

Offline Alan

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Re: God’s Judgments Upon Digressive Nations
« Reply #1 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 22:24:13 »
The answer is NO.


Offline Reformer

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Re: God’s Judgments Upon Digressive Nations
« Reply #2 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 23:18:11 »

Alan:

    I assume you believe it was man-caused. If yes, has God in history used man for a cause, as He used the Roman Army to destroy Jerusalem, the [once] Holy City, as prophesied by Jesus? Just wondering.

Buff

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Re: God’s Judgments Upon Digressive Nations
« Reply #2 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 23:18:11 »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: God’s Judgments Upon Digressive Nations
« Reply #3 on: Tue Mar 24, 2020 - 07:34:39 »
Hi Reformer,

As you are affirming with the case of God’s judgment on AD 70 Jerusalem, YES, God indeed uses human instruments as a means of His passing judgment on erring individuals and nations.  He even goes so far as to call these human agencies the “rod of mine anger” (Isaiah 10:5).  God also compares the human means He uses in the punishment of wicked mankind as an “axe”, a “saw”, or a “staff” being wielded by God’s hand against them (Isaiah 10:15).

In Jeremiah 51:20, God identifies Himself with His chosen human agent of judgment by calling them “my battle axe and weapons of war” with which He would break in pieces the nations and kingdoms which had offended Him.

God has not changed His modus operandi from OT to NT days.  He still uses one nation to bring others down at His pleasure, or the proliferation of natural disasters  to serve His purpose of expanding His kingdom in this world and of judging sinful actions of men. Wherever the Corona virus originated from, it is proving one thing that is very obvious - apparently abortion clinics will NOT shut down, even though the entire rest of the functioning world should come to a grinding halt.

I looked up my local abortion clinic in Greenville SC yesterday, and it looks as if it is “business as usual” with regular operating hours in spite of the governor supposedly limiting the gathering of 3 people or more.  Such hypocrisy.  If you have only an abortion doctor, a pregnant mother, and a baby in the process of being aborted, that’s a gathering of three persons in God’s eyes.

I read in II Kings 24:3-4 that the amount of “innocent blood” which King Manasseh had shed from one end of Jerusalem to another (II Kings 21:16) had created an offense “which the LORD would NOT PARDON”. 

We speak of the “unpardonable sin” in scripture.  Well, this sin of aborting innocent blood in the OT appears to rank high on God’s list of the unforgivable for a nation.  Sooner or later, any nation which engages unashamedly in this affront to God will reap what they have sown. 

I would likewise pose a question, just as you have, Reformer.  What if the Corona virus and the economic effects on this country and the world is God’s means of showing His disgust for for the lucrative practices of all abortion providers worldwide?  If the nations are so in love with this death-dealing abortion industry, is God giving the world its fill of the results of a death-dealing disease to show us our own hypocrisy?  I think yes.

If the abortion industry continues to function even though every other small business in the world may go into shut-down mode, this is a clear indication of where the world’s sinful priorities lie. 


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Re: God’s Judgments Upon Digressive Nations
« Reply #3 on: Tue Mar 24, 2020 - 07:34:39 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: God’s Judgments Upon Digressive Nations
« Reply #4 on: Tue Mar 24, 2020 - 08:05:45 »
God has not changed His modus operandi from OT to NT days. 
Oh, but He has changed His modus operandi from the OT to NT days. And it is a monumental change.  It is night and day.  In the OT days God was dealing with ethnic Israel, His chosen nation.  It was a theocracy, in the world sense.  The nation sinned as a nation and He punished as a nation. In the NT days God is dealing with us individually, His chosen people. Even in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, God was dealing with the nation and it effective announced the end of His dealing with ethnic Israel. Failure to recognize the difference between God's dealing with ethnic Israel and spiritual Israel (Rom 9:6-8) is a huge mistake of far too many Christians today.

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Re: God’s Judgments Upon Digressive Nations
« Reply #4 on: Tue Mar 24, 2020 - 08:05:45 »



Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: God’s Judgments Upon Digressive Nations
« Reply #5 on: Tue Mar 24, 2020 - 12:10:08 »
Ok, 4WD, perhaps I should phrase that single sentence you highlighted to express myself better.  Of course, God has presently switched from the Old Covenant into the New Covenant at the cross, which He calls a “change in the law” in Hebrews 7:12.  It’s the deathless, new high priesthood of Christ under which we currently operate, as opposed to the Levitical priesthood of the Old Covenant times.

But this is a different subject from how God disciplines and judges the world at large.  Those examples I gave from Isaiah and Jeremiah were speaking of how God would judge ASSYRIA and BABYLON, once He had used these two as tools of judgment against His own people.  Human agencies were going to execute God’s purposes for the pagan nations as well as for God’s own ethnic people. 

In addition to these human means of judgment, God took credit for authorizing natural calamities in a city to punish the wicked inhabitants (Amos 3:6 and Isaiah 45:7).  Plague, pestilence, famine, and the sword have been mentioned many times in scripture as God’s tools of judgment.

Under our current New Covenant conditions, God is STILL using human agencies and natural disasters to accomplish His purpose.  We see the saints of the New Covenant being used in this way in I Cor. 6:2.  Paul was scolding the Corinthian church members for going to law against each other, when they should have been able to judge these trivial matters among themselves.  To prove this, Paul said, “Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world?  And if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?”

We see the same case of the saints being judges of the world in Rev. 2:26-27.  “And he that overcometh and keepeth my words unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:  And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.”  Because we are in Christ, we share in His power over the nations.

I would agree with you in part, 4WD, that there actually is a sort of “night and day difference”, as you describe it, between Christ’s and the saints New Covenant “rule” or “shepherding” over the nations compared to Old Covenant days.  But that major difference is this; the world at large is no longer subjected to the angelic divine council that used to work within the kingdoms of this world as the “Watchers” that Daniel 4:13 & 17 mentions.   

Hebrews 2:5 proves the time for the eradication of this angelic divine council.   “For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.” 

This meant that in the days when Hebrews was written, they were anticipating the soon-coming age of a “habitable world” without the “Watchers” as the world’s divine council angelic oversight (elect angels), or any interference of the demonic, fallen angel members of this divine council.  Instead, this part of the angels’ responsibility as formerly exercised by the divine council of angels would pass to the saints of God’s kingdom to work as His ambassadors and judges of the nations, once God had destroyed the demonic realm and confiscated all Satan’s kingdom powers.  This happened in those first-century days, since Hebrews 12:26-27 said that God had “NOW” promised to shake not only earth, but heaven as well in their days, thus “removing” those “shaken” demonic powers over the kingdoms of the world in those days. 

This “removing” of the shaken demonic realm  (as well as the AD 70 disbanding of the divine council that had operated in the world’s nations up to that point) since then has left the saints of God with His in-dwelling Spirit to be His human agents of judgment in this world. The “weapons of our warfare are not carnal” means, “but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds” (II Cor. 10:4). 

God expects each saint to do their part as His ambassador.  This need not be a militant style judgment of the world.  Most of the time, just living a life of personal righteousness is offensive enough to contend with the wicked (Pr. 28:4).


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Re: God’s Judgments Upon Digressive Nations
« Reply #5 on: Tue Mar 24, 2020 - 12:10:08 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: God’s Judgments Upon Digressive Nations
« Reply #6 on: Tue Mar 24, 2020 - 12:53:09 »
Under our current New Covenant conditions, God is STILL using human agencies and natural disasters to accomplish His purpose.
You know that how?
Quote
We see the saints of the New Covenant being used in this way in I Cor. 6:2.
I guess in your Preterist view of things that is happening now and not when Jesus comes again, which is actually yet in the future.  How about 1 Corinthians 6:3?  I suppose you think that is happening now even as we speak.  Sorry, 3 Res, there is no way I can agree with you on such matters.

Offline Reformer

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Re: God’s Judgments Upon Digressive Nations
« Reply #7 on: Tue Mar 24, 2020 - 14:52:28 »

3 Resurrections:

    You inquired, "I would likewise pose a question, just as you have, Reformer. What if the Corona virus and the economic effects on this country and the world is God’s means of showing His disgust for for the lucrative practices of all abortion providers worldwide?  If the nations are so in love with this death-dealing abortion industry, is God giving the world its fill of the results of a death-dealing disease to show us our own hypocrisy?  I think yes."

    Quite possible, my brother, but I won't answer in the definitive. I'll leave the possibility loose, so as not to disavow other possibilities.

Buff

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Re: God’s Judgments Upon Digressive Nations
« Reply #8 on: Tue Mar 24, 2020 - 16:40:36 »
Hey again 4WD,

How do I know that God still uses human agencies and natural disasters to accomplish His purpose?  I know this because God says “For I am the LORD, I CHANGE NOT....” (Mal. 3:6).   If God used these means all through scripture to pass judgment on individuals and nations, (including times in both OT and NT), then He continues to do so today.

If otherwise, wouldn’t that be saying that, at some point, God has taken His hands completely off the wheel of this world’s affairs?  Where is the proof of THAT in scripture?

It is not my ”Preterist view of things” that teaches me that the saints are currently judges of the world by being in Christ.  It is Ephesians 2:5-6 compared to Ephesians 1:19-20 that tells me so.  “Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)  And hath raised us up together,” (PAST TENSE for those living Ephesian saints) “and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus”. 

Just what significance was there about those “heavenly places” for the living Ephesian saints as well as us today?  Ephesians 2:19-21 tells us.  God set the resurrected Christ at his own right hand in those heavenly places, “...Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world” (or “this AGE”), “but also in that which is to come” (or “but also in the coming one”).   Those in Christ share positionally in this same dominion over the world.  “We are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.”


This “coming” age in the Greek uses the word “mellonti”, which means “the age which is ABOUT TO COME”.  That meant the Ephesian believers were anticipating a soon-coming transition to the next age in their near future (the New Covenant Age which would remain standing alone as an unshaken kingdom, without any leftover remnants of the Old Covenant trappings surviving to offer competition).   

This transition period would conclude with the eradication of the demonic kingdom and the disbanding of the angelic divine council role as “Watchers” to whom humanity had formerly been subjected. The living saints who had already been vicariously sitting in “heavenly places in Christ Jesus” would vicariously share in His victory over a destroyed Satan and his minions when God reduced them all to ashes in the city of Jerusalem’s Lake of Fire (it’s “second death” after its first death in 586 BC under the Babylonians).

We, too, as living saints which are also vicariously seated in those “heavenly places in Christ Jesus”, can also presently share in this past victory of the saints and Christ over a destroyed Satan and his demonic realm.  However, most do not read scripture’s description of this past completed victory over the Satanic realm with any realization of this blessing that the ages future to Ephesians 2:7 were to receive.

You asked if I thought that the I Cor. 6:3 saints’ judgment of the angels was an ongoing thing today?  I presume you mean the wicked angels, since the elect angels need no judgment.  No, the saints are NOT presently doing this today, because the “celestial bodies” (I Cor. 15:40) of all the members of that Satanic kingdom were judged and destroyed completely to literal ashes in the city of Jerusalem by the end of AD 70, as well as every unclean spirit that had ever existed.  So says the combined evidence of Ezekiel 28:18-19, Isaiah 24:21-23, 27:1, Zech. 13:2, Romans 16:20, the “at hand” prophesied fulfillment of the unclean spirits being imprisoned in Rev. 18:2, and the devil and his angels tormented until the end of those ages in Rev. 20:10 when God would slay them, etc., etc..

 

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Re: God’s Judgments Upon Digressive Nations
« Reply #8 on: Tue Mar 24, 2020 - 16:40:36 »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: God’s Judgments Upon Digressive Nations
« Reply #9 on: Wed Mar 25, 2020 - 02:54:24 »
Good post Buff.

Offline 4WD

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Re: God’s Judgments Upon Digressive Nations
« Reply #10 on: Wed Mar 25, 2020 - 06:17:48 »
Hey again 4WD,

How do I know that God still uses human agencies and natural disasters to accomplish His purpose?  I know this because God says “For I am the LORD, I CHANGE NOT....” (Mal. 3:6).   
Of course, God does not change.  But He can and does change the way he deals with his creation. In the OT times man received forgiveness of his sins through the animal sacrifices by the priests. God doesn't do that any more.  But by your argument He must still be doing that.  Wrong!!


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Re: God’s Judgments Upon Digressive Nations
« Reply #11 on: Wed Mar 25, 2020 - 07:17:32 »
????

4WD, did you overlook the place above where I agreed with you that there has been a “change in the law” from Old Covenant times to New Covenant times, according to Hebrews 7:12?  You are extrapolating something from what I wrote that isn’t there.

But I know that you don’t really believe that animal sacrifices and the blood of bulls and goats was ever able to take away sins, because Hebrews 10:4 & 11 specifically denies this.  It was always the heart of faith acting in obedience that gave evidence of being a child of God - not the actual shed blood of animals itself.

That “change in the law” from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant of the altered high priesthood order and the cessation of Levitical sacrifices does not mean that God also must have changed His practice of using human instruments and natural phenomena to effect His plans for the nations and individuals.  The NT writings are full of many examples of God continuing to do this, just as He did in OT days.  Do you need these examples listed?

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Re: God’s Judgments Upon Digressive Nations
« Reply #12 on: Wed Mar 25, 2020 - 07:48:37 »
????

4WD, did you overlook the place above where I agreed with you that there has been a “change in the law” from Old Covenant times to New Covenant times, according to Hebrews 7:12?  You are extrapolating something from what I wrote that isn’t there.

But I know that you don’t really believe that animal sacrifices and the blood of bulls and goats was ever able to take away sins, because Hebrews 10:4 & 11 specifically denies this.  It was always the heart of faith acting in obedience that gave evidence of being a child of God - not the actual shed blood of animals itself.
3 Res,
There is a difference between forgiveness of sins as prescribed in the OT and the taking away of sins as discussed Hebrews, chapter 10.  Clearly the animal sacrifices provided a way for the sins of  God's people in the OT to receive forgiveness of their sins.  However, that was not sufficient.  There was still the ultimate penalty to be paid in order for the sins "to be taken away". Their sins were forgiven under the condition of the future ultimate sacrifice of God's Son, Jesus.

Even the baptism of John the Baptist was "for the forgiveness of sins", yet the ultimate penalty had not been paid.

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Re: God’s Judgments Upon Digressive Nations
« Reply #13 on: Wed Mar 25, 2020 - 08:50:03 »
also to which an antitype doth now save us -- baptism,
(not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the question of a good conscience in regard to God,) through the rising again of Jesus Christ,
1Pet.3:21 Young's Literal Translation


And back to the topic.

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” -Jhn.3:36

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;

because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
-Romans 8:20-23


Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes,
so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.
-1Cor. 4:6