Author Topic: H e a v e n - A Real Place With Real People  (Read 957 times)

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Offline Reformer

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H e a v e n - A Real Place With Real People
« on: Sun Jun 20, 2021 - 18:36:15 »
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
_________________
 
H e a v e n
[A Real Place With Real People]

    Heaven! What honest heart is there that does not respond to this charming term? It strikes a cord that may have been dormant for years. When plans have failed, when dreams lie shattered, when all seems lost, heaven stands out so sweetly.
 
    Heaven! A bona-fide abode with real people—people who have been redeemed by the Savior’s sacrifice. Heaven! A home where all may rest when the sun has gone down in the evening of life—rest from all that annoys down here, rest from illnesses, rest from fears, rest from the enemy who would drag us down.
 
    Heaven! The eternal Paradise where the peace that God provides is fully enjoyed. On Planet Earth it is only partially enjoyed. Compared to eternity, the longest physical life is only seconds. It appears as a vapor and then vanishes. How sweet to know that “he who believes in me will never die.”
 
    Some delightful day all honest and receptive hearts will have a reunion. It will not be in some Park down here. Glorious sunshine will light our faces. There will be no shadows to obstruct our view, no bad weather to change our countenance, and no sorrow for what we left behind. In heaven there will be no sorrow.
 
    “And I heard a great voice from the throne saying, ‘Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be with them. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away’ ” [Rev. 21:3-4].
 
    Had John been able to describe the beauties of heaven as it actually is, we probably would not be able to comprehend it, for we cannot comprehend beauty beyond our own knowledge. On one occasion, the apostle Paul “was caught up into Paradise” and granted a glimpse of what heaven will be like [2 Cor. 12:1-5]. “And he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.”
 
    My guess is that Paul also "saw things that cannot be told” or explained in human terms. To express it differently—There are no human terms sufficient to portray the glories that await us.
 
    By faith we are able to see. By faith we know that God has prepared a Paradise for His children—a domain we will never be able to describe fully until our earthly sojourn is over and we are transferred to a heavenly “Garden of Eden,” a spiritual “Shangri-la,” and a land called “Utopia.” Holy Father, be our pilot when we “fly away” to be with you in your Holy and Eternal Domain!
« Last Edit: Sun Jun 20, 2021 - 18:43:20 by Reformer »

Offline Reformer

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Re: H e a v e n - A Real Place With Real People
« Reply #1 on: Sun Jun 20, 2021 - 18:54:36 »
FROM A READER

    ”Hello, brother. Nice article on heaven but there needs to be clearness on when we who are faithful get there. It is not when we die but only at The judgment after the return of Jesus.

    “It seems to comfort the heart to tell everyone that all the dead are there now but that is only a doctrine a church has created, not scripture. If all the faithful dead are there now, what are they to do at the judgment, come back and wait to be told they are already where the rest are going.”
—Rod.


   Thank you, my brother. At death our spirit, the real us, is transferred to God’s Paradise, whether it is Heaven itself or one of His domains. When Jesus died, He went to Paradise, one of God’s provinces. Later He ascended to Heaven. So wherever we go at death, we are alive and in God’s dominion—somewhere.

Blessings,

Buff

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: H e a v e n - A Real Place With Real People
« Reply #2 on: Mon Jun 21, 2021 - 13:09:34 »
heavenS

That word should be plural, but is mis-translated as singular in virtually all Bibles.

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« Reply #2 on: Mon Jun 21, 2021 - 13:09:34 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: H e a v e n - A Real Place With Real People
« Reply #3 on: Mon Jun 21, 2021 - 13:22:16 »
heavenS
That word should be plural, but is mis-translated as singular in virtually all Bibles.
Indeed. 

I cannot think of a single instance where it is NOT plural in the Hebrew Scriptures.

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Offline Reformer

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Re: H e a v e n - A Real Place With Real People
« Reply #4 on: Mon Jun 21, 2021 - 13:49:16 »

Jarrod & DaveW:

    You are mostly correct but not entirely. Here is a notable example. "No one has ascended into heaven, except Him who descended from heaven, the Son of Man" [John 3:13].

    I have checked both the Hebrew and Greek and discovered, "Perhaps from the same as G3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension heaven (as the abode of God); by implication happiness, power, eternity; specifically the Gospel (Christianity)."

    Check also I Cor. 15:47, where the term "heaven" is used in the singular. Romans 10:6 is another example.

Kindly,

Buff

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Offline fish153

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Re: H e a v e n - A Real Place With Real People
« Reply #5 on: Mon Jun 21, 2021 - 13:54:32 »
"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". Paul is referring to believers of course. We don't wait until judgment day to see Heaven. Many are there already. For an interesting listen watch Richard Sigmund visit to Heaven on Youtube. One doesn't have to believe him, but watch it if you can. If he hasn't been there he has a great imagination. LOL

I can't wait to go to Heaven and see Jesus.

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« Reply #5 on: Mon Jun 21, 2021 - 13:54:32 »

Offline Reformer

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Re: H e a v e n - A Real Place With Real People
« Reply #6 on: Mon Jun 21, 2021 - 14:33:24 »
fish153:

    Thank you for your affirmation and declaration. As I noted above, and I will repeat it here...

    "At death our spirit, the REAL us, is transferred to God’s Paradise, whether it is Heaven itself or one of His domains. When Jesus died, He went to Paradise, one of God’s provinces. Later He ascended to Heaven. So wherever we go at death, we are ALIVE and in God’s dominion—somewhere." AMEN!
 
Blessings,
 
Buff

« Last Edit: Mon Jun 21, 2021 - 14:37:07 by Reformer »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: H e a v e n - A Real Place With Real People
« Reply #7 on: Tue Jun 22, 2021 - 01:58:29 »
Jarrod & DaveW:

    You are mostly correct but not entirely. Here is a notable example. "No one has ascended into heaven, except Him who descended from heaven, the Son of Man" [John 3:13].

    I have checked both the Hebrew and Greek and discovered, "Perhaps from the same as G3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension heaven (as the abode of God); by implication happiness, power, eternity; specifically the Gospel (Christianity)."

    Check also I Cor. 15:47, where the term "heaven" is used in the singular. Romans 10:6 is another example.

Kindly,

Buff

When the Jews translated the Hebrew scriptures into Greek during the intertestamental period, they chose the Greek word ouranos in translation of the Hebrew word for heavens.  The New Testament authors mostly likely used this word because they were following an established convention in translation, and wanted their readers to connect it to the other Scriptures they were already familiar with.

The upshot of which is - even where the Greek word is singular, we should understand it a substitution for the Hebrew word.

Offline DaveW

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Re: H e a v e n - A Real Place With Real People
« Reply #8 on: Tue Jun 22, 2021 - 06:10:01 »
When the Jews translated the Hebrew scriptures into Greek during the intertestamental period, they chose the Greek word ouranos in translation of the Hebrew word for heavens.  The New Testament authors mostly likely used this word because they were following an established convention in translation, and wanted their readers to connect it to the other Scriptures they were already familiar with.

The upshot of which is - even where the Greek word is singular, we should understand it a substitution for the Hebrew word.
Exactly.  A good rule to follow in most NT words.

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Re: H e a v e n - A Real Place With Real People
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Offline Reformer

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Re: H e a v e n - A Real Place With Real People
« Reply #9 on: Tue Jun 22, 2021 - 13:33:49 »

Jarrod & DaveW:

    I hear you two, but reality is that in the new covenant scriptures "heaven" is translated in both the plural and the singular. The passages I submitted are in the singular. Common logic dictates it.

Kindly,

Buff

Offline Jaime

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Re: H e a v e n - A Real Place With Real People
« Reply #10 on: Tue Jun 22, 2021 - 13:58:35 »
Question: What does the New Jerusalem in Revelation represent or mean? It is coming DOWN here, by the way.

Offline johntwayne

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Re: H e a v e n - A Real Place With Real People
« Reply #11 on: Tue Jun 22, 2021 - 14:09:30 »
Question: What does the New Jerusalem in Revelation represent or mean? It is coming DOWN here, by the way.

The new Jerusalem descends to the new earth, not the old one.

Offline Jaime

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Re: H e a v e n - A Real Place With Real People
« Reply #12 on: Tue Jun 22, 2021 - 14:48:15 »
The new Jerusalem descends to the new earth, not the old one.

I understand that. The point is, heaven (the New Jerusalem) comes DOWN, it's not us going UP to it.

Also, what would the function be of the REST of the New Earth OUTSIDE the New Jerusalem. A city of 1500 miles x1500 miles x 1500 miles high? Will there be people OUTSIDE the walls of the New Jerusalem?

Rev 22:
vs 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. (Righteous within)

vs 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. (Unrighteous without)
« Last Edit: Tue Jun 22, 2021 - 15:50:16 by Jaime »

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Re: H e a v e n - A Real Place With Real People
« Reply #13 on: Tue Jun 22, 2021 - 22:50:35 »
Jaime:

    Interestingly, I received a letter on this “New Jerusalem” from a reader of mine who receives my weekly column. My answer follows. He writes...

    “Buff, a thought or two on the ‘New Jerusalem’ that comes down from heaven in Rev. 21. Although the Book is highly symbolic and notoriously difficult to interpret, it seems that any interpretation which makes the description of the ‘Holy City’ a description of heaven does not respect the internal cohesion of the Book.

    “I’m not sure if it is fair to accuse you of this exegetical error or not. Personally, I think John is describing a future and idealized body of believers, the ‘ekklesia’ of Christ, as described in Acts 2, much as Paul does with the ‘Bride of Christ’ in Ephesians—although, obviously, in a totally different way.”
—Name Withheld
.
_____

    “Good to hear from you. I appreciate your understanding of and your stance on Revelation 21. Actually, when I selected that portion of Revelation to add to my comments on Heaven, I was contemplating at the moment exactly how you described the possible meaning. Yet I posted it because, in Heaven, there will be no tears, no sorrow, no pain, and no death.

    “We are very much in agreement on the symbolic structure of the Book of Revelation. As to how we will appear in the eternal afterlife, I think we will agree we will have a heavenly existence in the form of a glorified body. I believe our Lord ascended back to Heaven with a glorified or sanctified body—very possibly the kind of body we, too, will possess, an immortalized and sanctified body, not composed of flesh and blood but a “spiritual” body or being, not subject to human and earthly frailties. Or as Paul expresses it...

   “ ‘It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body...I tell you, brothers, flesh and blood cannot inherit the [eternal] reign of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable’ [I Cor. 15:44 & 50].”
 
____

Buff

Offline Jaime

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Re: H e a v e n - A Real Place With Real People
« Reply #14 on: Wed Jun 23, 2021 - 07:58:12 »
What does the passage about New Jerusalem mean? Something comes down and we go in, and some are kept on the outside. Is it heaven? Does it symbolize something else? how did the murderers and rapists etc on the outside of New Jerusalem get from the former Earth to the New Earth? Did they have asbestos suits?
« Last Edit: Wed Jun 23, 2021 - 14:44:46 by Jaime »

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Re: H e a v e n - A Real Place With Real People
« Reply #15 on: Wed Jun 23, 2021 - 14:43:06 »
Jaime:

    If any of my statements above are not clarification enough, I will try to enhance my explanation. “New Jerusalem” was a type or figure of speech, representing the redeemed and holy New Israel, the community or congregation of Christ, commonly but wrongly called “Church.”

    Too, she is referred to as a “faithful bride” to her husband, Messiah Jesus. Actually, that “New Jerusalem” came down in about A. D. 33 [or so] when the new covenant and the new order were initiated.

    We should not forget that Revelation points to and in  three different directions—the past, the present, and the future. John wrote his “Revelations” in about A. D. 90-96, a few decades after the new covenant had begun. So the “New Jerusalem came down” expression is actually pointing backwards to about A. D. 33 [give or take a year or more].

    There are numerous “interpretations” of this section of Revelation, as well as most all other sections of the Book. The vast majority of its contents is symbolic and figurative. It is not an easy task to decipher all of those revelations conferred upon the Apostle John.

    Am I absolutely correct in my “enhanced” interpretation of Revelation 21? Assuredly, I would never declare that possibility, for I am only sharing my understanding, not a revelation from heaven! As I said, the Book is not an easy reading.

Kindly,

Buff
« Last Edit: Wed Jun 23, 2021 - 14:47:38 by Reformer »

Offline Jaime

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Re: H e a v e n - A Real Place With Real People
« Reply #16 on: Wed Jun 23, 2021 - 14:49:48 »
Buff, I would say your statements ARE NOT enough clarification. I would not ascribe to the New Jerusalem coming down in about AD 33 or so, when the new covenant and the new order began. I can't say which would be more unlikely a future New Jerusalem that we can't explain or a past New Jerusalem that we can't explain adequately.
« Last Edit: Wed Jun 23, 2021 - 14:58:35 by Jaime »

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Re: H e a v e n - A Real Place With Real People
« Reply #17 on: Wed Jun 23, 2021 - 14:55:50 »

Jaime:

    You may be correct, my brother. On the other hand, you may be incorrect. The same applies to me.

Buff

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Re: H e a v e n - A Real Place With Real People
« Reply #18 on: Wed Jun 23, 2021 - 15:00:17 »
Buff, I find it extremely concerning that God would inspire an indecipherable message to us in the last book of the Bible. I vote that no he did not. I don't think it is comforting to conclude that we are on the winning side  in the end, but just ignore all the gobbledy gook in the message at the end of the book.

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Re: H e a v e n - A Real Place With Real People
« Reply #19 on: Wed Jun 23, 2021 - 15:21:03 »
Jaime:

     We don't always know the reasons our God does this or does that. We are dealing with the mind of a Supreme Creator. Mysteries are prevalent in many portions of the divine scriptures, not only in the Book of Revelation, but in the Book of Daniel and others.

    But God has plainly and clearly revealed to us the way of salvation, the way of redemption, the way of rescue in the form of faith and trust in His Son. And while you and I apprehend many portions of the divine scriptures, yet there are many sections we do not fully grasp.

    We are humans, of the earth, not angels or prophets. Revelation is what God has said; interpretation is what we think He has said! There's a huge difference between the two.

Buff

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Re: H e a v e n - A Real Place With Real People
« Reply #20 on: Wed Jun 23, 2021 - 15:32:03 »
Well, this points up to me that no one should hold their interpretation as any better than anyone else's.

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Re: H e a v e n - A Real Place With Real People
« Reply #21 on: Wed Jun 23, 2021 - 15:48:59 »
Jaime:

    Another thought just came my way on grasping the scriptures. Peter announced that some of the things Paul wrote "are hard to understand" [2 Peter 3:14-16]. In relation to that, a few unstable minds were twisting some of the hard things Paul wrote.

   My point? If Peter found some of the things Paul wrote "hard to understand," we, too, fall into that category. But we must be careful lest we twist some of Paul's writings out of their intended significance. That principle is applicable to all of the scriptures, of course.

Buff

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Re: H e a v e n - A Real Place With Real People
« Reply #22 on: Wed Jun 23, 2021 - 16:08:51 »
Jaime:

    "Well, this points up to me that no one should hold their interpretation as any better than anyone else's."

    Partly true, partly untrue. Many scriptures are easy to understand and need not be controversial or handled argumentatively. Example: "Jesus wept." Another example: Mary was impregnated "from the Holy Spirit." These examples are self-interpretative. No mystery; no doubt; no room for argument.

    I suggest to go two ways in reading and researching the messages from Heaven. 1] Believe and accept common vocabulary; 2] Question and research difficult messages. There's a ton of both!

Buff
« Last Edit: Wed Jun 23, 2021 - 16:14:11 by Reformer »

Offline RB

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Re: H e a v e n - A Real Place With Real People
« Reply #23 on: Thu Jun 24, 2021 - 04:33:54 »
“Buff, a thought or two on the ‘New Jerusalem’ that comes down from heaven in Rev. 21. Although the Book is highly symbolic and notoriously difficult to interpret, it seems that any interpretation which makes the description of the ‘Holy City’ a description of heaven does not respect the internal cohesion of the Book.

    “I’m not sure if it is fair to accuse you of this exegetical error or not. Personally, I think John is describing a future and idealized body of believers, the ‘ekklesia’ of Christ, as described in Acts 2, much as Paul does with the ‘Bride of Christ’ in Ephesians—although, obviously, in a totally different way.”
This gentleman is not very far off from the truth, and very humbly expresses it in a few words as to what he sees and understands.

The "New" Jerusalem is the bride of Christ, or the church of Christ (called out ones)~or, the city where God shall dwell in the midst of world without end.  In Revelation 21 that John saw her glorified, having the glory of God which he describes using highly symbolic language.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Revelation 21:1-11~"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;"
The "NEW" Jerusalem is the church in her glorified state which has not happened as of yet, yet will come to pass when this earth and heavens as we now know them, shall pass away and God creates ALL THINGS new. The New Jerusalem is the TRUE Tabernacle/City where God in the person of Jesus Christ shall live in the midst thereof world without end in the New earth and heaven~THE HEAVEN which will be our final resting place from all of our former enemies, the greatest and most powerful which was DEATH is forever defeated and destroyed. I said Heaven will be our final resting place for with our glorified bodies we can think and be there instantly~the earth will be filled with mansions JUST AS CHRIST said it would be~some things we cannot speak particularly.... somethings we can~but not very much since most are hidden from us, yet we know that most of that world to come has never enter into the hearts of man that which God has prepared for them that love him and keep his commandments.

Offline Johnb

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Re: H e a v e n - A Real Place With Real People
« Reply #24 on: Thu Jun 24, 2021 - 07:38:09 »
Jaime I am with you. It is rare for folks to discuss almost any topic in or about the Bible without defending their particular doctrine or understanding even when it means taking passages out of content or twisting the scriptures.  It is possible to believe I am right without marking others as false prophets or non believers.

 

     
anything