Author Topic: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?  (Read 3064 times)

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Offline 4WD

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #35 on: Tue May 31, 2022 - 12:18:56 »

If you are equating Paradise with Heaven... as many do.....
I didn't say anything about heaven or about equating paradise with heaven.
« Last Edit: Tue May 31, 2022 - 12:26:12 by 4WD »

Offline 4WD

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #36 on: Tue May 31, 2022 - 12:25:13 »
Again, this makes the assumption that here and the afterlife are on the same time line. 
I made no assumption about any time line.  I only spoke to the day that Jesus spoke to the thief. It would have been obvious to the thief that  that Jesus was speaking to him that day.  There would have been no need for Jesus to tell the thief that He was speaking to him that day.  We know they all died THAT day, the day that the thief would be with Jesus in Paradise.

Offline dan p

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #37 on: Tue May 31, 2022 - 13:15:42 »
 And in  2  COR  12:2that  Paul know of a  man , whether in the  body  of outside of the  body , God  knows , such a  one  having been  caught away as  far as  the  HIRD  HEAVEN .

 And  verse  4 , He was  caught away into  PARADISE ,  so we  know that there are at  least 3  HEAVENS and  God lives  above the  heavens is what I see .

dan p

Offline RB

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #38 on: Wed Jun 01, 2022 - 03:17:51 »
God lives  above the  heavens is what I see
Dan, God is a Spirit, thereby, there is not a "pocket of space" where God does not dwell. God does not live in a particular place as though the heaven can contain him because they cannot.
Quote
1st Kings 8:27~"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builder?"
How true are these words:
Quote
Job 36:26~"Behold, God is great, and we know him not, neither can the number of his years be searched out."

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #38 on: Wed Jun 01, 2022 - 03:17:51 »

Offline RB

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #39 on: Wed Jun 01, 2022 - 03:56:42 »
If you are equating Paradise with Heaven... as many do..... Then the thief would have gotten his rewards before Jesus actually ascended to Heaven. 
Rella and Dave~I agree with 4WD, and here's why.

First~If you take Dave's translation, then it leaves you wondering, or asking the question~"do saints when they die go into the very presence of Jesus Christ/God".... who are ONE in one true biblical sense.
Quote from: Dave's translation
Luke 23:43~And He said to him, “Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
Well, WHEN shall we meet Christ in paradise? The question cannot be answered with this translation. Are we going to sleep in the grave for thousands of years, or are we going to meet Christ when our spirits leaves our bodies? The KJV tells us plainly when this glorious meeting shall take place, with many of us, it is not too far into the future.

Secondly~Rella you said:
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 11:35:34
If you are equating Paradise with Heaven... as many do..... Then the thief would have gotten his rewards before Jesus actually
ascended to Heaven.

We know that on the morning of the resurrection, there was a time when Christ had not yet ascended to heaven (see John 20:17)

"17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

If you equate Paradise as part of Hades( see Ephesians 4:9 ) then I suppose your argument could be sound, yet it would not take away from mine.

We are not told who actually died first. The thief or Jesus. Not that it matters but if the thief died first it could be that there was a point of waiting before reaching Paradise.
Well we are told who died first:
Quote
John 19:32,33~"Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
So, we DO KNOW who died first, but, that truly matters little as far as I see it, because whether alive or dead, Jesus in his complex nature WAS GOD, knowing this truth, he could be ON earth or in heaven at the SAME TIME. Have you never read with understanding these words:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 3:13~"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven
As the Son of God, he was on earth, as God manifest in the flesh, he was BOTH on the earth and IN HEAVEN and truly inhabits eternity.

Therefore, say unto you that Jesus' words to the thief....
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Luke 23:43~And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
Was fulfilled just as Jesus said.
« Last Edit: Wed Jun 01, 2022 - 05:15:19 by RB »

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #39 on: Wed Jun 01, 2022 - 03:56:42 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #40 on: Wed Jun 01, 2022 - 05:31:35 »
Rella and Dave~I agree with 4WD, and here's why.

First~If you take Dave's translation, then it leaves you wondering, or asking the question~"do saints when they die go into the very presence of Jesus Christ/God".... who are ONE in one true biblical sense.  Well, WHEN shall we meet Christ in paradise? The question cannot be answered with this translation. Are we going to sleep in the grave for thousands of years, or are we going to meet Christ when our spirits leaves our bodies?
Again - you are assuming a time gap between when a person dies and resurrection.  I submit there is no time gap and at death you are immediately there with no "sleep" period to take into account.

Offline RB

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #41 on: Wed Jun 01, 2022 - 05:41:38 »
Again - you are assuming a time gap between when a person dies and resurrection.  I submit there is no time gap and at death you are immediately there with no "sleep" period to take into account.
Greetings Dave, you did not understand what I said "if," you think I believe in a time gapbecause I do not.

Please point out what makes you think that I do.

Offline DaveW

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #42 on: Wed Jun 01, 2022 - 07:36:14 »
Greetings Dave, you did not understand what I said "if," you think I believe in a time gap because I do not.
Please point out what makes you think that I do.
Your strict reliance on a particular translation, where the original text is not so clear.

Quote
Well, WHEN shall we meet Christ in paradise? The question cannot be answered with this translation. Are we going to sleep in the grave for thousands of years, or are we going to meet Christ when our spirits leaves our bodies? The KJV tells us plainly when this glorious meeting shall take place, with many of us, it is not too far into the future.
Here you are assuming "thousands of years" based on your translation of choice.  The text in the original never says that.

God's word is inspired in the original autographs, not in any translation.

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #43 on: Wed Jun 01, 2022 - 08:46:14 »
Rella and Dave~I agree with 4WD, and here's why.

First~If you take Dave's translation, then it leaves you wondering, or asking the question~"do saints when they die go into the very presence of Jesus Christ/God".... who are ONE in one true biblical sense.

Not in the sense you indicate.

Well, WHEN shall we meet Christ in paradise? The question cannot be answered with this translation.

Yes, it can.

Are we going to sleep in the grave for thousands of years, or are we going to meet Christ when our spirits leaves our bodies?

BOTH!

The KJV tells us plainly when this glorious meeting shall take place, with many of us, it is not too far into the future.



I simply see that verse reading

Luke 23:43
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

Jesus said this to the thief because the thief came to believe who Jesus was/is. It left no doubt to those who heard these words.

Jesus was saying "I'm telling you this today.....  If he had known the thief the day before He would not have promised him Paradise. Nor could he the day after because we all know that once you are dead it is too late.

This was Jesus' assurance for this thief.... and no different tthen when the deciples were sent to evangelize "new believers" and what they would tell " new believers"

Technically Dave was correct when he said they both are correct....

Luke 23:43
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

But this is an awkward reading based on what Jesus was trying to convey because if the thief died first... then did he get to Paradise before Jesus?



Secondly~Rella you said: Well we are told who died first:

Wrong.... I said we do not know who died first. If you do then pray tell me where I am missing it.

So, we DO KNOW who died first, but, that truly matters little as far as I see it,

Wrong. It matters to the people who heard it. 

because whether alive or dead, Jesus in his complex nature WAS GOD, knowing this truth, he could be ON earth or in heaven at the SAME TIME. Have you never read with understanding these words: As the Son of God, he was on earth, as God manifest in the flesh, he was BOTH on the earth and IN HEAVEN and truly inhabits eternity.

Irrelevant. And BTW yes I have. But those who were watching and listening would not have understood.

Therefore, say unto you that Jesus' words to the thief....Was fulfilled just as Jesus said.

But.... for the sake of arguement.... ::doh:: can you prove.... without a shadow of the doubt that Solomon was wrong?

Ecclesiastes 12:7  “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”

The thief's soul/spirit did go that day to Paradise....

The Bible reveals that the spirit and soul go to Hades  after the body dies.

But what is “Hades”? you ask? Hades is the place where the souls and spirits of the dead are kept.

Hades has two sections, the section of torment and the section of comfort (Luke 16:23-26). The section of comfort is Paradise, where the Lord went with the saved thief after they died on the cross (Luke 23:43). Hence, heart of the earth, lower parts of the earth, Hades, and Paradise are synonymous terms, referring to the place where the Lord stayed for three days and three nights after His death and before His resurrection.

Hark: The good news is

Hades is not the final destination! For the believers, it is simply the resting place where they “sleep,”  awaiting the resurrection of life at the Lord’s return (John 5:29). In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16, Paul encouraged the believers with the hope of the resurrection of the dead,

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Well... again I digress.

And shall stop.


edit: I split this into quotes so I could read it better  -Jarrod
« Last Edit: Wed Jun 01, 2022 - 11:04:20 by Wycliffes_Shillelagh »

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #43 on: Wed Jun 01, 2022 - 08:46:14 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #44 on: Wed Jun 01, 2022 - 10:49:14 »
There was no punctuation in the original text. Consider this:

Luke 23:43
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”


OR:

Luke 23:43
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.”


Both are equally valid.
The phrase "verily I say unto thee" occurs 77 times in the gospels, and always introduces one of Jesus' sayings.

There is no other place where the "today" is added to the phrase.  It stands to reason that "today" is part of the saying, and NOT part of the formulaic phrase introducing the saying.

Jarrod

Offline RB

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #45 on: Thu Jun 02, 2022 - 01:51:19 »
edit: I split this into quotes so I could read it better  -Jarrod
Thank you very much, Jarrod, I was just about to give Rella credit until I got to the bottom of the page. She's a smart person and should be able to figure this out, or, is she just making me work harder?  ::smile::

Offline RB

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #46 on: Thu Jun 02, 2022 - 02:01:17 »
Your strict reliance on a particular translation, where the original text is not so clear.

Here you are assuming "thousands of years" based on your translation of choice. The text in the original never says that.

God's word is inspired in the original autographs, not in any translation.
Dave, you are a very smart man, if I have any perception, but, I'm not sure where your mind is when you read my post, my friend.

I never hinted about a thousand years in any sense other than just using that as an example of a figure of speech trying to prove a point. I said:
Quote from: RB
Well, WHEN shall we meet Christ in paradise? The question cannot be answered with this translation. Are we going to sleep in the grave for thousands of years, or are we going to meet Christ when our spirits leaves our bodies? The KJV tells us plainly when this glorious meeting shall take place, with many of us, it is not too far into the future.

Offline RB

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #47 on: Thu Jun 02, 2022 - 03:02:27 »
BOTH!
Rella, both cannot be true, and you should know when we die it could not be thousand of years before we are with him, and it would be the very second our spirits leaves our bodies. How much Biblical sense does that make? That's something my four-year-old grandson Daniel would say~No pun intended.
Quote
I simply see that verse reading    Luke 23:43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
Every bible commentary worth their salt would all disagree with you. Besides, without me adding much more see Jarroh's comments.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on: Yesterday at 10:49:14
The phrase "verily I say unto thee" occurs 77 times in the gospels, and always introduces one of Jesus' sayings.

There is no other place where the "today" is added to the phrase.  It stands to reason that "today" is part of the saying, and NOT part of the formulaic phrase introducing the saying. Jarrod
Quote from:  Rella on: Yesterday at 08:46:14
Wrong.... I said we do not know who died first. If you do then pray tell me where I am missing it.
Are you and Dave drinking from the same bottle? I gave you the scripture that is quite clear Jesus died first.
Quote
John 19:32,33~"Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
Rella, the soldiers broke the legs of the two which were crucified with Jesus, BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT DEAD, when they came to brake Jesus' legs they saw that he was already dead. Maybe you can produce another translation that said otherwise, but that still would not make it so. Just think, if you are wrong on such simple teaching, how much so on the more difficult teachings? Which one of them I will point out coming up.
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 08:46:14
But.... for the sake of arguement.... ::doh:: can you prove.... without a shadow of the doubt that Solomon was wrong?

Ecclesiastes 12:7  “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
Why do I want to prove Solomon was wrong? I AGREE with him. Our old man Adam shall return back to the dust from whence it came just as I have said above.
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 08:46:14
The thief's soul/spirit did go that day to Paradise....

The Bible reveals that the spirit and soul go to Hades  after the body dies.

But what is “Hades”? you ask? Hades is the place where the souls and spirits of the dead are kept.

Hades has two sections, the section of torment and the section of comfort (Luke 16:23-26). The section of comfort is Paradise, where the Lord went with the saved thief after they died on the cross (Luke 23:43). Hence, heart of the earth, lower parts of the earth, Hades, and Paradise are synonymous terms, referring to the place where the Lord stayed for three days and three nights after His death and before His resurrection.

Hark: The good news is

Hades is not the final destination! For the believers, it is simply the resting place where they “sleep,”  awaiting the resurrection of life at the Lord’s return (John 5:29). In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16, Paul encouraged the believers with the hope of the resurrection of the dead,
Rella, to say you are confused would be an understatement, but you are not alone, you have a large company of folks who have embraced this fable with you.

To be very short~when the wicked died they go back to dust WAITING for the resurrection on the last day. They are NOT in the conscience state and do not have one single thought they are DEAD in the truest sense of that word. Luke 16 which you were describing is a parable and can easily be proven in another post.

The righteous' old man as well goes back to the dust, yet THEY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE and shall NEVER taste of death in the truest sense of the word death. When the righteous die, they are immediately ushered into God's presence, amongst an innumerable host of angels and spirits of just men who as well have been made perfect.

This has always been the case from Abel on.
Quote
Hence, heart of the earth, lower parts of the earth, Hades, and Paradise are synonymous terms, referring to the place where the Lord stayed for three days and three nights after His death and before His resurrection.
Wow, boy you have swallowed these fables hook, line and sinker! Jesus' BODY lay in the GRAVE for three days and three nights, his spirit went to God at his death!
Quote
Luke 23:46~"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."
Though his body was in the grave for three days and three nights he saw NO CORRUPTION.
Quote
Acts 2:31~"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."
Hell in this scriptures is THE GRAVE~it is used in different senses in the scriptures, our job is the rightly divide them which few do.

I heard Kenneth Copeland recently say when Jesus died he went to HELLFIRE for our sins! That's blasphemy! His spirit went to God, his flesh suffered DEATH~but, he was raised from the dead by the power of God since he KNEW NO SIN and death and hell/grave had NO POWER/RIGHT over him or his elect member of his chosen body.

Enough for now.
« Last Edit: Thu Jun 02, 2022 - 06:14:36 by RB »

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #48 on: Thu Jun 02, 2022 - 08:10:33 »
Thank you very much, Jarrod, I was just about to give Rella credit until I got to the bottom of the page. She's a smart person and should be able to figure this out, or, is she just making me work harder?  ::smile::

If you cannot read copy and realize that replies are made throughout said copy , so to emphasize one or more points... but in another color then you do not need to work harder..... for me. My mind is set. At least on this. And you are not able to discern what my points are.

You said you were about to give me credit, until you got to the bottom of the page... after Jarrod took your words written in black and white and made them a quote(s).

Can you truly say that makes it easier for you to understand? Or maybe that is just a man thing? ::shrug::

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #49 on: Thu Jun 02, 2022 - 08:49:14 »
Pretty sure it is an everyone thing.  Replying inside a quote box, even with different colors is harder to read.

Offline Alan

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #50 on: Thu Jun 02, 2022 - 11:41:32 »
Pretty sure it is an everyone thing.  Replying inside a quote box, even with different colors is harder to read.


It's a bit time-consuming to add quote tags to every comment you wish to reply to, especially in a single post, but it does make the post much more legible. The multi colored or the "so and so said" with the quote in italics I usually skip right past.

Offline dan p

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #51 on: Thu Jun 02, 2022 - 14:09:11 »
And   RB  , my question to you is about JOHN  8:51 where  it  says ,  If  a man keep my  SAYING , he shall   never  see  DEATH ?

 #1 The  Greek word KEEP / TEREO  is in the  Greek  PAST  TENSE , ACTIVE  VOICE  , and in the  SUBJUCATIVE  MOOD ,and means  IF  he  CAN ?

#2  Keep here  means Christ  SAYINGS / LOGOS , in the  LIMITED  , ACCUSACTIVE CASE .

 #3 He  shall  ,  NEVER / THEOREO and in the  SUBJUNCATIVE  MOOD  if  that person , COULD KEEP  THEM ?

 #4  NEVER / ME  is an  DISJUNCATIVE  PARTICILE  NEGATIVE and means thAT  person will  NEVERRRRRRRRRRRRR  see  death .

 I have to find  anyone that KEPT  jESUS  saying ?

 #5 One is in  Luke 1:5 and  6  ,  Abis  and  Elisabeth ,  were  both  righteous before  God , walking in all the  commandments and  Ordinances of the  Lord  BLMELESS .

 #6  And here is the  last one that I know , and it is the  Apostle  Paul in Phil  3:6  is also and  touching  Righteousness which is in the  Law ,  BLAMENESS .

 Know of no  one else  that  has done what these  3  people have  DONE  , and  anyone that tries to keeps Christ  commandments  will  also  FAIL .

dan p

 


« Last Edit: Thu Jun 02, 2022 - 17:16:42 by dan p »

Offline RB

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #52 on: Thu Jun 02, 2022 - 14:50:16 »
Can you truly say that makes it easier for you to understand? Or maybe that is just a man thing? ::shrug::
I have always answered your post with the way you post, and truly, never have complained. I really do not care how folks chose to post and make it work.
Quote from: Rella on: Today at 08:10:33
My mind is set. At least on this.
I'm sure it is.
Quote from: Rella on: Today at 08:10:33
And you are not able to discern what my points are.
I think I do discern, but you are free to believe whatever you desire to believe. I might have trouble following some folks who are well versed in the word of God, but you are not one of them.
« Last Edit: Fri Jun 03, 2022 - 03:18:39 by RB »

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #53 on: Thu Jun 02, 2022 - 17:16:13 »
Quote
I have always answered your post with the way you post, and unruly never have complained.
Quote
I really do not care how folks chose to post and make it work.
Quote
I'm sure it is.
Quote
I think I do discern, but you are free to believe whatever you desire to believe.
Quote
I might have trouble following some folks who are well versed in the word of God, but you are not one of them.
[/size]

Just trouble being clear on your own points.

Offline dan p

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #54 on: Thu Jun 02, 2022 - 18:15:44 »
And when  a  Jewish believer  died as did  LAZARUS , he went to  PARADISE  as written in Luke  16:19:31 .

 When a  GRACE  BELIEVERS  dies  today  goes  to  HEAVEN  as written in  2  Cor 5:8  To be  away  ,  out  of  body  and  to  be  at  HOME  with  the  Lord .

 dan p
« Last Edit: Tue Jun 07, 2022 - 17:46:27 by dan p »

Offline 4WD

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #55 on: Thu Jun 02, 2022 - 18:41:04 »
And when  a  Jewish believer  died as did  LAZARUS , he went to  PARADISE  as written in Luke  16:19:31 .

 When a  GRACE  BELIEVERS  dies  today  goes  to  HEAVEN  as written in  2  Co 8 .

 dan p
Where does it say anything about paradise in Luke 16 or anything about heaven in 2 Corinthians 8?  Did I miss something?

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #56 on: Thu Jun 02, 2022 - 19:30:45 »
Where does it say anything about paradise in Luke 16 or anything about heaven in 2 Corinthians 8?  Did I miss something?
Luke 16 has 'Abraham's bosom' which does seem to be paradise.

I don't know what he's talking about in 2Corinthians.

Offline dan p

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #57 on: Thu Jun 02, 2022 - 19:34:05 »
  PARADISE  is  mention in  Luke 23:43  and also in  2  Cor 12:4 as Paul was taken to Paradise , to the  third  heaven '

 dan p

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #58 on: Fri Jun 03, 2022 - 03:10:55 »
And when a  Jewish believer died as did  LAZARUS, he went to PARADISE as written in Luke 16:19:31 . When a GRACE BELIEVERS dies today goes to HEAVEN as written in  2nd  Cor. 8. dan p
Dan, you come up with some strange beliefs.

Believers are ONE, and part of the SAME BODY~ this has always been true, the revelation of this is clearly made known in the NT where all of God's mysteries come to full light. We shall all sit down in the kingdom of God with our spiritual fathers...... Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. We ALL were born again in the same manner~Read Galatians 4:22-31 to see if this is not so.

All of the elect are grace believers. Romans 4:1-4. God's children have ALL gone to paradise, or, Abraham's Bosom, or, the city that hath foundation whose Builder and Maker Is God. or, the third heaven, all used interchangeably, or are speaking of the same place when we read them in the scriptures.
« Last Edit: Fri Jun 03, 2022 - 03:15:41 by RB »

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #59 on: Fri Jun 03, 2022 - 03:52:25 »
And   RB, my question to you is about JOHN  8:51 where it says,  If a man keeps my  SAYING, he shall never see  DEATH?

 #1 The  Greek word KEEP / TEREO  is in the  Greek  PAST  TENSE, ACTIVE  VOICE, and in the  SUBJUCATIVE  MOOD, and means  IF he CAN?
Dan, You have allowed yourself to be deceived by using whatever source you are using to corrupt God's word~not saying you are doing so deliberately, nevertheless, you are so doing. Let us consider John 8:51.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 8:51~"Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death."
Dan, you have taken this simple, clear cut biblical declaration, and flip this declaration into a question!

Dan, John 8:51 is no question, Jesus is declaring a biblical truth, that if any man keeps the word of God ("overall" considering one's walk with God) then that person is giving biblical evidence that he/she shall never taste of death in the truest sense of death. The old man Adam, WILL die and return back to dust, the NEW MAN created after the image of Jesus Christ, will not, yea, CANNOT die!
Quote from: dan p Reply #51 on: Yesterday at 14:09:11
#5 One is in  Luke 1:5 and  6,  Abis and  Elisabeth,  were both righteous before  God, walking in all the commandments and  ordinances of the  Lord  BLAMELESS .

 #6  And here is the last one that I know, and it is the  Apostle  Paul in Phil  3:6  is also and touching  Righteousness which is in the  Law,  BLAMELESS.

 Know of no one else that has done what these  3  people have  DONE, and anyone that tries to keep Christ's commandments will also  FAIL.
Dan, these three along with every other saints were only blameless, they were not sinless, a big difference. Their overall life was known as keeping the sayings of God, thereby, they gave evidence they would never die.

Whatever source you are trusting in to help you better understand God's word should be trashed. You cannot make a declaration of a biblical truth from the lips of the Saviour and flip that statement in a question. Just as you have done here.

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #60 on: Fri Jun 03, 2022 - 06:31:51 »
Luke 16 has 'Abraham's bosom' which does seem to be paradise.
Perhaps the case can be made for that being true, but the verse doesn't say that.
« Last Edit: Fri Jun 03, 2022 - 06:35:13 by 4WD »

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #61 on: Sat Jun 04, 2022 - 09:01:04 »
Been too busy to reply for a few days. You said the following RB.

Quote
Amo, my friend, The first resurrection is a spiritual resurrection that gives the elect power to overcome the beast (the spirit of the devil) even though beheaded for the witness of Jesus Christ they STILL REIGN, while on earth they refuse to worship the beast neither his image they refused fellowship with the beast~the scriptures calls this THE FIRST RESURRECTION it has nothing to with their BODIES being resurrected, it is speaking of gift of eternal life and the result of those who possessed this gift. Once one is spiritually resurrected, he follows the Lamb wheresoever he leads them, even if into death, for death is not their enemy anymore it simply ushers us into God's holy presence where THERE we will reign with the SPIRITS of JUST men who have been made perfect~all that is left is them receiving their glorified bodies that they WILL receive in the resurrection at the last day……………………

The assumption above concerning the first resurrection having nothing to do with our bodily resurrection is just that. The scriptures definitively teach and address our bodily resurrection, and also speak of a spiritual resurrection. You choose the latter to support your own views. However, scripture has a lot to say about these resurrections, which again, your perspective creates contradictions concerning. This coupled with ignoring exactly when the scriptures themselves and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, declare humanity will receive eternal life. We should not ignore the implications of contradictions within the scriptures, caused by what we have chosen to believe. This is the more exact problem with your views, they ignore conclusive scriptural testimony elsewhere, and create contradictions. Which unbelievers often capitalize upon in warring against the same.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


The connection between eternal and being raised up at the last day is obvious for any who have familiarized themselves with what the scriptures teach regarding the same. Eternal life is received or given at the literal resurrection of the saved. Those who are saved are assured this eternal life, but most obviously they do not have it until then. We all know, as Christ testified, and the scriptures do as well, all the saved but those literally alive at the second coming will die. Therefore does our lord tie the two together in the above scriptures, and speak elsewhere as this truth is basically taken for granted.

Luk 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Those who will be resurrected and part of the new world, are resurrected from the dead of course, as scripture plainly states. Receiving eternal life at that time as Christ and the scriptures testify and teach elsewhere. Insistence that Christ teaches otherwise because He does not always refer to the resurrection while addressing and or assuring the saved that they shall not die, denies the obvious references to their very death by Him and the apostles many times. How can the saved be referred to both dying and never dying at the same time, save the first death not actually be considered death, since those who die it live again.

Thus the sleep of the dead referred to so many times in scripture. Those who sleep eventually wake up, the dead do not. Not by way of anything short of a miracle performed by God Himself. Who has promised that all the dead will arise again, some at that time unto eternal life, and some at that time unto damnation. This is not because they were not dead at the time of their resurrection as so many wrongly suggest, but on account of the miraculous resurrection of the dead by God. Those who create doctrines based upon only partial testimony of scripture on a particular subject, while ignoring or contradicting other scriptures regarding that same subject, create false doctrine. God’s word is true, and does not contradict itself.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:[/u] 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

So very many false doctrines are built upon either applying spiritual application where none belongs, or literal applications where spiritual ones are intended. This is why it is important to consider all scripture concerning each topic under examination, and above all the guidance of the Holy Spirit of God in determining the truth of the matter. Determining that the death referred to in the above quoted scripture is only a spiritual one for the saved, contradicts other plain scriptural testimony of the scriptures, and denies that which basically taken for granted all throughout them. Leading most who accept this alteration to rejecting scriptural testimony regarding the sleep as it were, of the dead as well.

1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

The dead in Christ are sleeping the sleep of death. They are the dead in Christ, not the living in Christ. They will be resurrected unto life again at Christ’s second coming. Death is the last enemy that will be destroyed, at Christ’s coming, at the resurrection. Resurrections are of the dead not the living. Why will you deny the above plain testimony, because our Lord has properly claimed that the saved have passed from death to life? This does not have to contradict the above testimony or any of the others to the same effect, by an insistence upon conditions not fully supported or established by scripture itself. Either there are dead in Christ, or there are not. Either they are referred to as sleeping in Christ therefore, or they are not. According to the above scriptures though, and many others, there are. Why will you deny this with created scenarios that deny the same?

1 Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Again, the dead in Christ referred to as sleeping, will be raised. They are the dead in Christ, not the living in Christ. Why will you deny this plain conclusive testimony, making it of none effect, by your own understandings contradicting the same? Why wont you choose the path which does not make scripture contradict itself, over that which does? Are you not thereby denying what these scriptures and other plainly state and most obviously take for granted?

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Why would Jesus refer to those would be alive and well in heaven with Him at a future date as you suggest, as in their graves? Why would those already alive be referred to as taking part in the resurrection of life? Dead people are resurrected, not living ones. Even a spiritual application of resurrection, which the above does not suggest, requires a spiritual death before said resurrection. Again, our Lord and the apostles take for granted that which you seem to deny.

Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The above is testimony regarding a literal demonstration of the resurrection unto life which Jesus and the apostles spoke of. The sleeping as it were dead, arose from their graves bodily, and appeared unto many. Why would that described by Jesus and the apostles to the same effect concerning the future resurrection unto life, be any different. To the contrary, all testimony we are examining speaks in the same manner, taking these truths for granted.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

The above testimony is in reference to the resurrection of the dead, not the living.  The literal resurrection, not the spiritual one Paul also speaks of. It is regarding those sleeping the death which all of humanity dies, saved or not. This is the bibles testimony. Taken for granted in so much scripture, that I could continue this post into many other’s quoting the scriptures which do so. It is at the last trump, at our Lord’s second coming, on the last day, that the saved are raised from the dead, receive incorruptible spiritual bodies, and pass from mortals to immortality. At which point the final enemy which is death, is conquered. This is the testimony of scripture. Supported by so very much scripture in both plain and conclusive statement, and less specific testimony which obviously takes such for granted. Choosing to ignore all of this is a serious mistake, and leads to false doctrine.

I will end this post, with scriptural testimony taking these very things for granted, as I have stated so very much scripture does. 

Joh 11:1 Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 (It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.) Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick. 4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby. 5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus. 6 When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was………..

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him. 16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him. 17 Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four days already. 18 Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off: 19 And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother. 20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat still in the house. 21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. 23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world………………………………………

38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it. 39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days. 40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God? 41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. 42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. 43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.44 And he that was dead came forth,[/u][/b] bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin.





« Last Edit: Sat Jun 04, 2022 - 09:12:18 by Amo »

Offline 4WD

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #62 on: Sat Jun 04, 2022 - 10:07:25 »
The assumption above concerning the first resurrection having nothing to do with our bodily resurrection is just that. The scriptures definitively teach and address our bodily resurrection, and also speak of a spiritual resurrection. You choose the latter to support your own views. However, scripture has a lot to say about these resurrections, which again, your perspective creates contradictions concerning.
Not a single passage you quoted there speaks of a first and a second resurrection.   So then all of your verbiage concerning either is no less an assumption.
Quote from: Amo
This coupled with ignoring exactly when the scriptures themselves and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, declare humanity will receive eternal life. We should not ignore the implications of contradictions within the scriptures, caused by what we have chosen to believe. This is the more exact problem with your views, they ignore conclusive scriptural testimony elsewhere, and create contradictions. Which unbelievers often capitalize upon in warring against the same.
Which is what you do all the time.  In fact, that entire post is filled with the very thing you are railing against, namely expressing only what you have chosen to believe. you as much or more than any others here.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #63 on: Sat Jun 04, 2022 - 10:13:05 »
Perhaps the case can be made for that being true, but the verse doesn't say that.
The original audience would have understood it without it being spelled out for them.

It's just people today whose arrogance leads them to believe that 'everything-I-need-to-understand-the-Bible-is-in-the-Bible.'  No, it isn't.  If you aren't putting in some work to understand the culture and history surrounding Biblical events, then you aren't comprehending what IS written very well.

Jarrod

Offline Amo

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #64 on: Sat Jun 04, 2022 - 12:49:51 »
Not a single passage you quoted there speaks of a first and a second resurrection.   So then all of your verbiage concerning either is no less an assumption.Which is what you do all the time.  In fact, that entire post is filled with the very thing you are railing against, namely expressing only what you have chosen to believe. you as much or more than any others here.

The term first resurrection is only used twice in scripture, in verses 5 and 6 of Revelation 20. The term second resurrection does not appear in scripture at all. Just second death. Though both terms and the context they were given in, imply a second of each. How say you, examining what the rest of scripture states regarding resurrections and deaths reveals nothing in relation to the same? Quote some scripture yourself, or address those quoted. Apart from that, what do I care what 4WD thinks. He is just like me. Here today, gone tomorrow. Not as God's word which endures forever. And truly does supply far more clarity upon many issues, which many disagreeing upon, care nothing for. So be it.

Offline 4WD

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #65 on: Sat Jun 04, 2022 - 13:46:48 »
The original audience would have understood it without it being spelled out for them.
And just how do you know that?  What other references do you have that would equate the two?  I believe they are the same, but that conjecture not knowledge. 

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #66 on: Sat Jun 04, 2022 - 14:04:10 »
The term first resurrection is only used twice in scripture, in verses 5 and 6 of Revelation 20.
That is indeed true.  However Jesus describes two separate "resurrections" in John 5:24-29. The first one is spiritual and occurs with the physically living; the second one occurs at the end of the age and occurs with the physically dead. Both of these "resurrections" are spoken of separately throughout the NT.

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #67 on: Sat Jun 04, 2022 - 16:47:41 »
That is indeed true.  However Jesus describes two separate "resurrections" in John 5:24-29. The first one is spiritual and occurs with the physically living; the second one occurs at the end of the age and occurs with the physically dead. Both of these "resurrections" are spoken of separately throughout the NT.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Since when are the physically living referred to as in their graves, to be called forth? Why will you complicate and confuse that which is simple? Must Christ literally demonstrate what He describes above for you? OK.

Joh 11:43  And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. 44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

What more do you want above and beyond a literal demonstration by our Lord of exactly what He meant in the verses you referred to from the book of John?


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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #68 on: Sun Jun 05, 2022 - 03:10:26 »
I'm off for a few days MOVING~boy this is a nightmare! I may have time to post very short posts which I really do not like to do when laboring to prove a point, so we shall see. RB

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #69 on: Sun Jun 05, 2022 - 05:28:31 »
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Since when are the physically living referred to as in their graves, to be called forth? Why will you complicate and confuse that which is simple? Must Christ literally demonstrate what He describes above for you? OK.

Joh 11:43  And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. 44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

What more do you want above and beyond a literal demonstration by our Lord of exactly what He meant in the verses you referred to from the book of John?

That is Jesus' description of the second resurrection. Now look at Jesus' description of the first resurrection: John 5:24  Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. 25  "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

There, very clearly, Jesus describes the spiritually dead being brought to life in the very same way that Paul describes in Ephesians 2.

Eph 2:4  But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5  even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--

It is the description of the first resurrection in Revelation 20:6  Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power
« Last Edit: Sun Jun 05, 2022 - 05:40:38 by 4WD »

 

     
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