Author Topic: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?  (Read 3064 times)

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Offline RB

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #70 on: Sun Jun 05, 2022 - 03:10:26 »
I'm off for a few days MOVING~boy this is a nightmare! I may have time to post very short posts which I really do not like to do when laboring to prove a point, so we shall see. RB

Offline 4WD

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #71 on: Sun Jun 05, 2022 - 05:28:31 »
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Since when are the physically living referred to as in their graves, to be called forth? Why will you complicate and confuse that which is simple? Must Christ literally demonstrate what He describes above for you? OK.

Joh 11:43  And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. 44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

What more do you want above and beyond a literal demonstration by our Lord of exactly what He meant in the verses you referred to from the book of John?

That is Jesus' description of the second resurrection. Now look at Jesus' description of the first resurrection: John 5:24  Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. 25  "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

There, very clearly, Jesus describes the spiritually dead being brought to life in the very same way that Paul describes in Ephesians 2.

Eph 2:4  But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5  even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--

It is the description of the first resurrection in Revelation 20:6  Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power
« Last Edit: Sun Jun 05, 2022 - 05:40:38 by 4WD »

Offline Amo

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #72 on: Sun Jun 05, 2022 - 07:52:01 »
That is Jesus' description of the second resurrection. Now look at Jesus' description of the first resurrection: John 5:24  Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. 25  "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

There, very clearly, Jesus describes the spiritually dead being brought to life in the very same way that Paul describes in Ephesians 2.

Eph 2:4  But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5  even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--

It is the description of the first resurrection in Revelation 20:6  Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power

Nope, this is rather what you choose. Jesus did literally raise the dead several times while here among us, and many of the saints arose after His crucifixion as well. He is the resurrection and the life, as He testified right before He literally raised Lazarus from the dead. When He was here the first time people rose from the dead by His power alone, and when He returns again all of His own will arise from the dead by His power.

This is not to deny the spiritual lesson and significance of the spiritual death and resurrection necessary for all to actually attain to the literal resurrection, but only to point out the importance of properly separating each into there proper sphere unto rightly dividing the word of God. The bible is filled with references to the literal resurrection.

Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

You simply do not want the context on the above scriptures to be about the literal dead, because it does not support what you have chosen to believe. Nevertheless, the context is about the literal dead and literal resurrection, even specifying it is addressing those rising from their graves. You choose to ignore the many references to the literal resurrection elsewhere in scripture to this exact same effect, which these scriptures are obviously in agreement with, and fully support. Because you want them to mean what you prefer. What right do you have to determine the scriptures under examination can only be in reference to a spiritual death and resurrection, when scriptural testimony elsewhere details the exact same events described in these in direct relation to literal deaths and resurrections? Not to mention the scriptures being spoken by the Son of God Himself, who not only literally raised the dead while here among us, but did so as proof that He was literally the Son of God. this also by His own testimony. This is an unreasonable demand on your part.

Luk 7:18 And the disciples of John shewed him of all these things. 19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another? 20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another? 21 And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight. 22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

What proof did Jesus Himself offer up to John when he would know if Christ was the one "that should come"? Was it not literally the miracles and message which Christ came to do and preach? Yes it was. Did He not literally raise the dead several times and testify Himself that He was doing so to prove that He truly was the Son of God? Yes He did. How say you then, that these scriptures under examination testifying of these very things and the future literal resurrection as highly suggested by context, can only be about spiritual death and resurrection? Is it not because this is what you wish and choose, rather than a unquestionable reality? It seems likely. Please do believe whatever you wish of course, as all of us must. These very choices regarding the testimony of God's word, is what we are all still here for. Having exactly to do with which literal resurrection each and everyone of us will take part in. So be it, as God's word has determined.

Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

It is very important for each of us to honestly and prayerfully consider the words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, by which we will all be judged. May God give us the grace to rightly divide His word unto the salvation He intends.

Offline 4WD

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #73 on: Sun Jun 05, 2022 - 07:56:33 »
Nope, this is rather what you choose.
Said the pot to the kettle.

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #73 on: Sun Jun 05, 2022 - 07:56:33 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #74 on: Sun Jun 05, 2022 - 08:04:13 »
So you think that when Jesus brought Lazarus back from the dead, He gave Lazarus eternal life as that spoken of in John 5:24? ::crackup::

Whatever.

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #74 on: Sun Jun 05, 2022 - 08:04:13 »

Online Rella

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #75 on: Sun Jun 05, 2022 - 08:04:31 »
The original audience would have understood it without it being spelled out for them.

It's just people today whose arrogance leads them to believe that 'everything-I-need-to-understand-the-Bible-is-in-the-Bible.'  No, it isn't.  If you aren't putting in some work to understand the culture and history surrounding Biblical events, then you aren't comprehending what IS written very well.

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Offline Amo

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #76 on: Sun Jun 05, 2022 - 18:50:45 »
So you think that when Jesus brought Lazarus back from the dead, He gave Lazarus eternal life as that spoken of in John 5:24? ::crackup::

Whatever.

I don't think so. Those miracles were performed to prove that Christ was whom He said He was. They will likely receive eternal life, or shall we say immortality when everyone else will. Save those few we know have it already mentioned in scripture.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Offline RB

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #77 on: Mon Jun 06, 2022 - 04:11:28 »
Nope, this is rather what you choose.
Amo, how true does those words~"listen to the worm calling the snail slimy" fit perfectly to your whole post to 4WD.
Quote from: Amo on: Yesterday at 07:52:01
Jesus did literally raise the dead several times while here among us, and many of the saints arose after His crucifixion as well. He is the resurrection and the life, as He testified right before He literally raised Lazarus from the dead. When He was here the first time people rose from the dead by His power alone, and when He returns again all of His own will arise from the dead by His power
This is all very true, yet, you are refusing to acknowledge that there is a spiritual resurrection that must occur before the second death will have no power over. What is even more amazing is you quoted the scriptures which taught both resurrection, the first, which is spiritual and has to do with our spirits and the second which has to do with our bodies only.
Quote from: Amo on: Yesterday at 07:52:01
This is not to deny the spiritual lesson and significance of the spiritual death and resurrection necessary for all to actually attain to the literal resurrection, but only to point out the importance of properly separating each into there proper sphere unto rightly dividing the word of God. The bible is filled with references to the literal resurrection.
This is one confused statement, spoken by a person laboring hard to protect his sect's doctrine.

Amo, you are denying and rejecting an very important truth of the first resurrection which must occur before one can be raise at the last day with a glorified spiritual body. In your confused statement, you said, and again I quote:
Quote
This is not to deny the spiritual lesson and significance of the spiritual death and resurrection necessary for all to actually attain to the literal resurrection
We are not discussing the spiritual death and resurrection necessary for all to actually attain to the literal resurrection~ALL will be resurrected BOTH the just and unjust per scriptures you quoted, but what you are refusing to see because it goes against your SDA doctrine is there is a FIRST resurrection that has been going on since Abel and will until the last soul is quickened to spiritual life by the Spirit of God! You quoted:
Quote
Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
And then you said to 4WD:
Quote from: Amo on: Yesterday at 07:52:01
You simply do not want the context on the above scriptures to be about the literal dead, because it does not support what you have chosen to believe. Nevertheless, the context is about the literal dead and literal resurrection, even specifying it is addressing those rising from their graves. You choose to ignore the many references to the literal resurrection elsewhere in scripture to this exact same effect, which these scriptures are obviously in agreement with, and fully support. Because you want them to mean what you prefer. What right do you have to determine the scriptures under examination can only be in reference to spiritual death and resurrection, when scriptural testimony elsewhere details the exact same events described in these in direct relation to literal deaths and resurrections? Not to mention the scriptures being spoken by the Son of God Himself, who not only literally raised the dead while here among us, but did so as proof that He was literally the Son of God. this also by His own testimony. This is an unreasonable demand on your part.
Well it is you Amo, that want the above scriptures to be about the literal dead in order to support your cults doctrine. It is you and your community of followers that reject the first resurrection being spiritual and chose to ignore the many other places in God's word that teach the same. But first and for now let us look at the very scriptures you quoted.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 5:21-29~"For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. (This is the first resurrection, the context will prove it~RB)

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (Those who can hear and believe are giving evidence that they HAVE PASSED from DEATH to LIFE~this is the FIRST resurrection Amo....RB)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (Amo here it is again...the first resurrection is a spiritual resurrection from being dead in our sins and under God's condemnation to eternal life in which all believers are in possession of~RB)

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: (you are not marveling, you just plain reject it! RB)

for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
This is the second resurrection of the bodies of all, some of those bodies will be raised with a body that will be spiritual, incorruptible, with glory and power. All others unto eternal damnation in the lake of fire. This is the second resurrection.

Those who fell asleep in Jesus/God from Abel on are with God and could, if God will them to do so......appear in a body like Moses, and Elijah did and the many who were raised when Christ was raised, SINCE THEY, HAVE ETERNAL LIFE and in the true sense of those words CAN NOT DIE....only the old Adam can and does. Your SDA followers reject the testimony of the word of God.
« Last Edit: Tue Jun 07, 2022 - 06:47:34 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #78 on: Mon Jun 06, 2022 - 07:14:52 »
John 5:24  Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. 25  "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

This is the very heart of the gospel. The grace of God, the gift of God, for eternal life is here promised to him who hears and believes. He has passed from being dead in trespasses and sins to being alive together with Christ (Eph 2:5).  One of course can hear the words of Christ but yet ignore what Christ has to say. So obviously hearing is not enough.  But upon hearing AND believing, i.e., having faith, in Jesus Christ gives life to the spiritually dead, eternal life, i.e., salvation of the soul.

And Amo would have you believe that here Jesus is telling us about a few miracles that He performed in raising some people back to life who had died physically.  That is simply not so.  Jesus is said to have raised three people from the dead.  There was Lazarus, the brother of Mary and Martha (John 11); the daughter of Jairus, the ruler of the synagogue (Matt 9), and the son of the widow at Nain (Luke 7).  In none of those instances does it ever say that the one raised to life had heard and believed or that hearing and believing had anything to do with the raising from the dead.  Moreover, there was no promise to any of them for eternal life.  Each and every instance in Jesus' raising the physically dead to be again physically alive was for the purpose of demonstrating Jesus' divinity as God's Son. 

None of John 5:24-25 has anything to do with bringing back to life the few people whom Jesus had raised from being physically dead. Rather, John 5:24-25 has everything to do with being spiritually born again, being made alive together with Christ, being given eternal life, those of regeneration, the first resurrection.  It is they of the first resurrection over whom the second death has no power (Rev 20:6).

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #78 on: Mon Jun 06, 2022 - 07:14:52 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #79 on: Mon Jun 06, 2022 - 08:42:47 »
Wrong.... I said we do not know who died first. If you do then pray tell me where I am missing it.
Actually we do:

John 19:32
So the soldiers came, and broke the legs of the first man and of the other who was crucified with Him;  33  but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.


The way crucifixion kills is by slow suffocation.  Hanging from the arms makes breathing very difficult, but most would use their legs to push against the nails in their feet to raise them up to take another breath.  Breaking the legs sped up the process by not letting them do that. So we know our Lord died first from this passage.

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #80 on: Mon Jun 06, 2022 - 08:44:50 »
John 5:24  Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. 25  "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

This is the very heart of the gospel. The grace of God, the gift of God, for eternal life is here promised to him who hears and believes. He has passed from being dead in trespasses and sins to being alive together with Christ (Eph 2:5).  One of course can hear the words of Christ but yet ignore what Christ has to say. So obviously hearing is not enough.  But upon hearing AND believing, i.e., having faith, in Jesus Christ gives life to the spiritually dead, eternal life, i.e., salvation of the soul.

And Amo would have you believe that here Jesus is telling us about a few miracles that He performed in raising some people back to life who had died physically.  That is simply not so.  Jesus is said to have raised three people from the dead.  There was Lazarus, the brother of Mary and Martha (John 11); the daughter of Jairus, the ruler of the synagogue (Matt 9), and the son of the widow at Nain (Luke 7).  In none of those instances does it ever say that the one raised to life had heard and believed or that hearing and believing had anything to do with the raising from the dead.  Moreover, there was no promise to any of them for eternal life.  Each and every instance in Jesus' raising the physically dead to be again physically alive was for the purpose of demonstrating Jesus' divinity as God's Son. 

None of John 5:24-25 has anything to do with bringing back to life the few people whom Jesus had raised from being physically dead. Rather, John 5:24-25 has everything to do with being spiritually born again, being made alive together with Christ, being given eternal life, those of regeneration, the first resurrection.  It is they of the first resurrection over whom the second death has no power (Rev 20:6).

You basically repeated what I just said. Apart of course from denying the obvious implications and intentions regarding the literal resurrection of the saved. Without the literal resurrection there is no hope. As Paul Himself states. Spiritual death and resurrection as it were, would have no meaning without the ultimate goal of literal resurrection unto our changed literal bodies, minds, and spirits of immortality. Just as a literal resurrection would have no meaning without the spiritual application first, but simply that of perpetuating sin and sinners.

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #81 on: Mon Jun 06, 2022 - 15:46:14 »
You basically repeated what I just said.
  Not even close.  The first resurrection described by Jesus in John 5:24-25 is regeneration. The spiritual rebirth of the one spiritually dead in trespasses and sin.  That occurs when one hears and believes. The resurrection of the physically dead described in the 1 Corinthian passage you posted occurs at the end of the age as described by Jesus in John 5: 28:29 and is the second resurrection.  Everyone, lost or saved, will experience the second resurrection.

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #82 on: Mon Jun 06, 2022 - 17:23:17 »
And  the  FIRST  RESURRECTION  is found in  Rev  20:5 .

 dan p

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #83 on: Tue Jun 07, 2022 - 03:58:12 »
And  the  FIRST  RESURRECTION  is found in  Rev  20:5 .
There and everywhere else that regeneration is mentioned or described; regeneration, being born again, the spiritually dead in trespasses and sin made alive in Christ are all descriptions of the first resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20:5.

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #84 on: Tue Jun 07, 2022 - 07:33:10 »
There and everywhere else that regeneration is mentioned or described; regeneration, being born again, the spiritually dead in trespasses and sin made alive in Christ are all descriptions of the first resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20:5.
You over-spiritualize it.  The first res from Rev 20.5 is a physical resurrection of the dead bodies of those who were born again in this life.

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #85 on: Tue Jun 07, 2022 - 07:44:14 »
Amo, how true does those words~"listen to the worm calling the snail slimy" fit perfectly to your whole post to 4WD.This is all very true, yet, you are refusing to acknowledge that there is a spiritual resurrection that must occur before the second death will have no power over. What is even more amazing is you quoted the scriptures which taught both resurrection, the first, which is spiritual and has to do with our spirits and the second which has to do with our bodies only. This is one confused statement, spoken by a person laboring hard to protect his sect's doctrine.

Amo, you are denying and rejecting an very important truth of the first resurrection which must occur before one can be raise at the last day with a glorified spiritual body. In your confused statement, you said, and again I quote: We are not discussing the spiritual death and resurrection necessary for all to actually attain to the literal resurrection~ALL will be resurrected BOTH the just and unjust per scriptures you quoted, but what you are refusing to see because it goes against your SDA doctrine is there is a FIRST resurrection that has been going on since Abel and will until the last soul is quickened to spiritual life by the Spirit of God! You quoted: And then you said to 4WD: Well it is you Amo, that want the above scriptures to be about the literal dead in order to support your cults doctrine. It is you and your community of followers that reject the first resurrection being spiritual and chose to ignore the many other places in God's word that teach the same. But first and for now let us look at the very scriptures you quoted. This is the second resurrection of the bodies of all, some of those bodies will be raised with a body that will be spiritual, incorruptible, with glory and power. All others unto eternal damnation in the lake of fire. This is the second resurrection.

Those who fell asleep in Jesus/God from Abel on are with God and could, if God will them to do so......appear in a body like Moses, and Elijah did and the many who were raised when Christ was raised, SINCE THEY, HAVE ETERNAL LIFE and in the true sense of those words CAN NOT DIE....only the old Adam can and does. Your SDA followers reject the testimony of the word of God.

I'm pretty sure you don't really even read my posts. If you do you either have reader comprehension problems, or simply cannot even see much of what I have said, being apparently too distracted with simply defending your own views. Why else do you always repeat that I don't believe or address things which I quite clearly have addressed and or even believe?

Offline Amo

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #86 on: Tue Jun 07, 2022 - 07:59:50 »
  Not even close.  The first resurrection described by Jesus in John 5:24-25 is regeneration. The spiritual rebirth of the one spiritually dead in trespasses and sin.  That occurs when one hears and believes. The resurrection of the physically dead described in the 1 Corinthian passage you posted occurs at the end of the age as described by Jesus in John 5: 28:29 and is the second resurrection.  Everyone, lost or saved, will experience the second resurrection.

You are simply confusing the two. My point was of course regarding that we both agree that the resurrections Jesus performed while among us were for God's glory, and neither the spiritual or literal resurrections referred to in scripture elsewhere. Of course we obviously do not agree concerning the details of either or, as is obvious. The problem with your above scenario of course, is that a second resurrection also implies of course, a second death to be resurrected from. The saved will die no second death, exactly because they have already spiritually died in Christ. Therefore are they spared the second death. Which most obviously must be a literal one only.

Rev 2:11  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Rev 21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The problem with your theory in mixing up spiritual and literal resurrections is easily identified. According to your understanding, everyone dies a second literal death. The saved when they pass away here on earth hang already died a spiritual death, and the wicked of course again after their resurrection unto damnation. God and His word are not confused on the matter. THE SAVED WILL DIE NO SECOND DEATH.

Offline 4WD

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #87 on: Tue Jun 07, 2022 - 08:37:33 »
You over-spiritualize it.  The first res from Rev 20.5 is a physical resurrection of the dead bodies of those who were born again in this life.
Where does it say that?  The truth is that it doesn't.  I think that may come from a poor translation/interpretation of verse 4.

I have explained that the first resurrection refers to a specific event that happens in the life of every Christian convert, an event that happens on the earth but which has eternal consequences. It is the event known as regeneration, the resurrection from spiritual death that happens when one is baptized into Christ. At this point we must look at what is specifically said about this first resurrection in Revelation 20.

First, there are two categories of persons who came to life. One is the martyrs beheaded because of their faith; John sees only their disembodied souls (see Rev 6:9). Thus we may conclude that they are in heaven. The second group consists of “those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand.” This cannot be the same group as the martyrs, there is no parallelism in the Greek phrasing translated “those who had been beheaded” and “those who had not worshiped.” The former phrase is a genitive participle and is correctly translated as modifying “souls.” The latter phrase, however, is an aorist verb preceded by the nominative plural relative pronoun, hoitines, “whoever,” which is the subject. That hoitines is nominative, not genitive, means that it does not modify “souls,” i.e., John does not say that he saw the souls of those who had not worshiped the beast.

However, the latter group is connected with “I saw” at the beginning of the verse, it is a broader category than the martyrs as such, and refers simply to whoever is not on Satan’s side, whether in heaven or on earth, whether living or dead. Second, the text says that the coming to life in verse 4 is the first resurrection, which implies that there is also a second resurrection. Verse 5 indicates that anyone not included in the two categories in verse 4, i.e., anyone who does not experience the first resurrection, will experience this second resurrection after the millennium ends: “The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.”

One thing should be noted: the text does not say that those who participate in the first resurrection will not participate in the second one also. It simply says that some will experience only the second resurrection. Third, those who have a part in the first resurrection will escape the second death (v. 6), which in verse 14 is equated with “the lake of fire,” i.e., hell (see 21:8). These are the only ones who are saved from eternal punishment. Thus there seems to be a redemptive power in the first resurrection that is not present in the second. Those who participate in the second resurrection but not in the first are subject to the second death, the lake of fire (v.14).

Offline 4WD

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #88 on: Tue Jun 07, 2022 - 08:42:18 »
My reply above also responds to Amo's confusion expressed in his reply #84.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #89 on: Tue Jun 07, 2022 - 12:36:58 »
The original audience would have understood it without it being spelled out for them.
And just how do you know that?  What other references do you have that would equate the two?  I believe they are the same, but that conjecture not knowledge.
I know that because I've read the same books and heard the same stories they did...
Every good Jewish boy would have known that Paradise is just a word for Gan Eden, that it resides in the third heaven, that Enoch the Watcher currently looks down from that location, recording the mis-deeds of men in a book, awaiting the final judgment when he will be called as witness against the wicked.

Honestly, some of the intertestamental books are so important for understanding the New Testament that I wonder how they were not canonized.

Jarrod

Offline DaveW

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #90 on: Tue Jun 07, 2022 - 13:38:22 »
Where does it say that?  The truth is that it doesn't.  I think that may come from a poor translation/interpretation of verse 4.
I have explained that the first resurrection refers to a specific event that happens in the life of every Christian convert,
Rev 20:4
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.


Beheaded.  Physical death.  Nothing spiritualized about that at all.  This is a physical restoration of life to those  who have physically died after being born again.   Think of those people in the videos from Boco Haram who were beheaded for being believers in Jesus. THEY will be in that first resurrection.

For you to spiritualize this tells me you do not take a literal text view of eternal judgement.
« Last Edit: Tue Jun 07, 2022 - 13:41:11 by DaveW »

Offline Amo

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #91 on: Tue Jun 07, 2022 - 17:10:44 »
Quote
I have explained that the first resurrection refers to a specific event that happens in the life of every Christian convert, an event that happens on the earth but which has eternal consequences. It is the event known as regeneration, the resurrection from spiritual death that happens when one is baptized into Christ. At this point we must look at what is specifically said about this first resurrection in Revelation 20.

As you yourself admit, the term first resurrection only occurs one time in all scripture. The spiritual death and resurrection we are discussing, as far as I know, is only referred to in the writings of the Apostle Paul. We have even scriptural testimony regarding the dangers of those who were already twisting Paul's writings to their own ends in their own days. That being the case, doctrines built solely upon the writings of the apostle Paul need to be examined very carefully. Nevertheless, it is Paul's testimony itself that contradicts the claim many make in preaching that we receive eternal life or immortality at our spiritual conversion. Or spiritual death and resurrection if you will. Paul declaring that such is received at Christ's second coming after our literal resurrection, which is in fact the first resurrection Revelation 20 alone speaks of. As the context clearly dictates.

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Just exactly when do you believe the literal resurrection of those who have died and are asleep in Christ, will take place? Surely you do not want to be among those spoken of above, who say the resurrection has already past, do you? How exactly do you escape the logical conclusion that the saved themselves will indeed die a second death, if the spiritual death and resurrection are to be applied as the first of each as you do? Just wondering. Or do you just not care, that scripture states that it is the wicked that die the second death, though your understanding has the saved dying one as well?

Offline dan p

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #92 on: Tue Jun 07, 2022 - 17:57:59 »
  And  PARADISE  is  written  in   LUKE 23:43 .

 Today  a  believer saved by  GRACE  ,  in  2  Cor 8 , ,  Absent  from  the  Body , and to  be  present with  then Lord .

 dan p

Offline 4WD

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #93 on: Wed Jun 08, 2022 - 03:51:15 »
Just exactly when do you believe the literal resurrection of those who have died and are asleep in Christ, will take place?
There is only one resurrection at the end of the age when Jesus returns.

John 5:26  For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27  And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28  Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when ALL who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Offline Amo

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #94 on: Wed Jun 08, 2022 - 08:15:17 »
There is only one resurrection at the end of the age when Jesus returns.

John 5:26  For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27  And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28  Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when ALL who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

I agree that there is only one literal resurrection for the saved and wicked, though not at the same time. Your views are confusing though. Above you use John 5:26-29 referring to the literal resurrection of both the saved and the wicked. Earlier though, you made the following quoted statements about these same verses -

Quote
However Jesus describes two separate "resurrections" in John 5:24-29. The first one is spiritual and occurs with the physically living; the second one occurs at the end of the age and occurs with the physically dead. Both of these "resurrections" are spoken of separately throughout the NT.

In one quote you are using Joh 5:26-29 to state that there is only one resurrection, in the other you are saying the same verses are referring to two resurrections, even primarily the spiritual resurrection spoken of by Paul. As your following quotes suggest as well.

Quote
That is Jesus' description of the second resurrection. Now look at Jesus' description of the first resurrection: John 5:24  Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. 25  "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

There, very clearly, Jesus describes the spiritually dead being brought to life in the very same way that Paul describes in Ephesians 2.

Quote
That is Jesus' description of the second resurrection. Now look at Jesus' description of the first resurrection: John 5:24  Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. 25  "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

There, very clearly, Jesus describes the spiritually dead being brought to life in the very same way that Paul describes in Ephesians 2.

Quote
None of John 5:24-25 has anything to do with bringing back to life the few people whom Jesus had raised from being physically dead. Rather, John 5:24-25 has everything to do with being spiritually born again, being made alive together with Christ, being given eternal life, those of regeneration, the first resurrection.  It is they of the first resurrection over whom the second death has no power (Rev 20:6).

Quote
Not even close.  The first resurrection described by Jesus in John 5:24-25 is regeneration. The spiritual rebirth of the one spiritually dead in trespasses and sin.  That occurs when one hears and believes. The resurrection of the physically dead described in the 1 Corinthian passage you posted occurs at the end of the age as described by Jesus in John 5: 28:29 and is the second resurrection.  Everyone, lost or saved, will experience the second resurrection.

So which is it? The spiritual resurrection you claim above, or the literal and only resurrection you claim in the post I am addressing in this my post? Or do you say it is either or, to be used interchangeably as defending your position requires at any given time, concerning one or the other? Somewhat confusing.

If I say the first resurrection is the literal resurrection which scripture speaks of unto eternal life, you say no, it is the spiritual resurrection which Joh 5:26-29 refers to as well. Then if I say that causes a problem with the saved dying a second death which only the wicked are supposed to die according to scripture, you change up and say there is only one resurrection at the end of time apparently. The literal one. How can it be both of these at the same time, defending both of these positions, without causing contradiction? Save one just changes the meaning when necessary to simply defend a position.





« Last Edit: Wed Jun 08, 2022 - 08:17:28 by Amo »

Offline 4WD

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #95 on: Wed Jun 08, 2022 - 16:10:39 »
I guess you think that regeneration is not a literal event.  Not terribly surprising.  Wrong, but not surprising.  And sad, so sad.

Offline Amo

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #96 on: Wed Jun 08, 2022 - 22:21:48 »
I guess you think that regeneration is not a literal event.  Not terribly surprising.  Wrong, but not surprising.  And sad, so sad.

That is not an answer. It is changing the subject. So be it. You of course do not have to answer anything you do not wish to.

Offline RB

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #97 on: Thu Jun 09, 2022 - 03:44:53 »
I agree that there is only one literal resurrection for the saved and wicked, though not at the same time. Your views are confusing though. Above you use John 5:26-29 referring to the literal resurrection of both the saved and the wicked. Earlier though, you made the following quoted statements about these same verses -

In one quote you are using Joh 5:26-29 to state that there is only one resurrection, in the other you are saying the same verses are referring to two resurrections, even primarily the spiritual resurrection spoken of by Paul. As your following quotes suggest as well.

So which is it? The spiritual resurrection you claim above, or the literal and only resurrection you claim in the post I am addressing in this my post? Or do you say it is either or, to be used interchangeably as defending your position requires at any given time, concerning one or the other? Somewhat confusing.
Amo, this will be short, since I literally have no time for the next few days.

So, we all three agree there will be only one literal bodily resurrection on the last day for all, righteous and the wicked. Even though we all three know there has been a bodily resurrection of the righteous from time to time throughout history and recorded for us in the holy scriptures.
Quote
Hebrews 11:35a~“Women received their dead raised to life again.........."
Even after Jesus' resurrection MANY CAME FORTH out of the graves and went into Jerusalem~we all know those scriptures.
Quote from: Amo on: Yesterday at 08:15:17
Your views are confusing though.
My friend Amo, no, it is your understanding that's confusing.
Quote from: Amo on: Yesterday at 08:15:17
In one quote you are using Joh 5:26-29 to state that there is only one resurrection, in the other you are saying the same verses are referring to two resurrections, even primarily the spiritual resurrection spoken of by Paul. As your following quotes suggest as well.

So which is it? The spiritual resurrection you claim above, or the literal and only resurrection you claim in the post I am addressing in this my post? Or do you say it is either or, to be used interchangeably as defending your position requires at any given time, concerning one or the other? Somewhat confusing
Amo, in those verses 4WD spoke of the resurrection of ALL on the last day, yet, he said earlier also above these words:
Quote from:  4WD on: Mon Jun 06, 2022 - 07:14:52
None of John 5:24-25 has anything to do with bringing back to life the few people whom Jesus had raised from being physically dead. Rather, John 5:24-25 has everything to do with being spiritually born again, being made alive together with Christ, being given eternal life, those of regeneration, the first resurrection.  It is they of the first resurrection over whom the second death has no power (Rev 20:6).
Again he said very clearly:
Quote from: 4WD
Now look at Jesus' description of the first resurrection: John 5:24  Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. 25  "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

There, very clearly, Jesus describes the spiritually dead being brought to life in the very same way that Paul describes in Ephesians 2.
You asked:
Quote
So which is it? The spiritual resurrection you claim above, or the literal and only resurrection you claim in the post I am addressing in this my post? Or do you say it is either or, to be used interchangeably as defending your position requires at any given time, concerning one or the other? Somewhat confusing.
It is not either-or, or use interchangeably, but clearly a first resurrection which is the new birth; and a second resurrection which is a resurrection of our bodies. The biblical truth may be confusing to you, but clearly taught in God's word, which 4WD understands and sees and correctly teaches.
Quote from: Amo on: Yesterday at 08:15:17
If I say the first resurrection is the literal resurrection which scripture speaks of unto eternal life, you say no,
WRONG, we say YES, or at least I will speak here for myself.

When one is born again by the Spirit of God God recreates the sinner into the image of Jesus Christ in his NEW MAN, which man has eternal life and truly never will taste of death IN THAT NEW MAN! The realization of eternal life will completely and fully come to fruition at the given of our new spiritual bodies at the resurrection on the last day!

THIS IS THE TRUTH your SDA community of followers reject, that is, we have eternal life NOW at this very moment! So be it, if the great Reformer Martin Luther did not understand this blessed truth, it does not make it unbiblical, it means he never fully understood it~though a great man of God without question, much greater than myself.
Quote from: Amo on: Yesterday at 08:15:17
How can it be both of these at the same time, defending both of these positions, without causing contradiction?
Very simple, just teach the first resurrection is spiritual in nature and has reference to the new birth JUST as Jesus taught, (Read John 5:21-25) and all of the rest of the apostles; and teach the second resurrection has to do with our bodies on the last day~John 5:26-29. This process is called rightly dividing the word of truth.
« Last Edit: Thu Jun 09, 2022 - 03:50:55 by RB »

Offline Amo

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #98 on: Thu Jun 09, 2022 - 04:41:20 »
Amo, this will be short, since I literally have no time for the next few days.

So, we all three agree there will be only one literal bodily resurrection on the last day for all, righteous and the wicked. Even though we all three know there has been a bodily resurrection of the righteous from time to time throughout history and recorded for us in the holy scriptures. Even after Jesus' resurrection MANY CAME FORTH out of the graves and went into Jerusalem~we all know those scriptures. My friend Amo, no, it is your understanding that's confusing.Amo, in those verses 4WD spoke of the resurrection of ALL on the last day, yet, he said earlier also above these words:Again he said very clearly: You asked:It is not either-or, or use interchangeably, but clearly a first resurrection which is the new birth; and a second resurrection which is a resurrection of our bodies. The biblical truth may be confusing to you, but clearly taught in God's word, which 4WD understands and sees and correctly teaches. WRONG, we say YES, or at least I will speak here for myself.

When one is born again by the Spirit of God God recreates the sinner into the image of Jesus Christ in his NEW MAN, which man has eternal life and truly never will taste of death IN THAT NEW MAN! The realization of eternal life will completely and fully come to fruition at the given of our new spiritual bodies at the resurrection on the last day!

THIS IS THE TRUTH your SDA community of followers reject, that is, we have eternal life NOW at this very moment! So be it, if the great Reformer Martin Luther did not understand this blessed truth, it does not make it unbiblical, it means he never fully understood it~though a great man of God without question, much greater than myself.Very simple, just teach the first resurrection is spiritual in nature and has reference to the new birth JUST as Jesus taught, (Read John 5:21-25) and all of the rest of the apostles; and teach the second resurrection has to do with our bodies on the last day~John 5:26-29. This process is called rightly dividing the word of truth.

You pretty much added nothing new to the conversation. As usual, I am not the one here taking the verses under examination out of their context, or ignoring what they actually state they are in reference to.

Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The verses are very specific in addressing the literal dead coming out of their graves. Those who come out of their graves receiving either eternal life, or damnation. These verses therefore cannot be about the spiritual resurrection you are so intent upon making them about, because the wicked never experience spiritual death and resurrection, and they are specifically addressed as part of the resurrections our Lord is Himself addressing. Again, I am not the one taking things out of context in order to promote what I have chosen to believe. So be it.

Offline Amo

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #99 on: Thu Jun 09, 2022 - 05:49:39 »

Quote
THIS IS THE TRUTH your SDA community of followers reject, that is, we have eternal life NOW at this very moment! So be it, if the great Reformer Martin Luther did not understand this blessed truth, it does not make it unbiblical, it means he never fully understood it~though a great man of God without question, much greater than myself.

SDA's and Martin Luther both understand the truth of spiritual death and resurrection very well, that they are necessary to salvation. We just don't apply them where context indicates literal resurrection is what is being addressed. Especially if such causes contradictions concerning other scriptures.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The highlighted verse above is no doubt a reference to spiritual death and resurrection, in that all must die the same in order to actually pass from death to life. And such is assured for those in Christ. Scripture does however address exactly when that eternal life is given and takes effect, which is at the literal resurrection, since even the saved sleep the sleep of death until that time. Save among those of course, alive when our Lord Returns. The rest of the verses above however, shift to details regarding the literal resurrection as is made obvious by the references to both the graves mentioned, and the resurrection of the wicked who themselves do not ever die spiritual death 
unto spiritual resurrection and newness of life. While spiritual resurrection is alway implied regarding the saved, it has no application regarding the wicked.

Offline RB

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #100 on: Thu Jun 09, 2022 - 07:08:48 »
You pretty much added nothing new to the conversation. As usual, I am not the one here taking the verses under examination out of their context,
Amo, this will be my last post until either Saturday or Sunday, since my service is being cut off today and installed at my new house late Friday.

Actually, I have said my position early on, all I was doing is showing you and any others who may read your error~and, yes, you are the very one not understanding these scriptures. Are you purposely taking them out of their context? No, I do not believe you are~God is withholding light from you since you refuse to break off from the SDA doctrine that you have received over the years.
Quote from:  Amo on: Today at 04:41:20
or ignoring what they actually state they are in reference to.
Amo, I'll say the same to you. Example: You quoted:
Quote
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Let us carefully listen to the word of God.

"For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. "Amo, this quickening has not one thing to do with a bodily resurrection, but given life to dead sinners! How do we know this? By these words:  the Son quickeneth whom he will. This quickening is LIMITED to only those given to Christ.
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John 17:2,3~"As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Again, one more for now:
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Matthew 11:25-27~"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him."
This takes place in what the scriptures calls the FIRST resurrection.

At the second resurrection, ALL will be resurrected and it is NOT limited to a designated few as the first resurrection is.
Quote
John 5:28,29~"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
You said:
Quote
The verses are very specific in addressing the literal dead coming out of their graves.
Yes, 28,29 does, but not John 5:21-26!
Quote
SDA's and Martin Luther both understand the truth of spiritual death and resurrection very well, that they are necessary to salvation.
No you two differ greatly on the spiritual resurection. I know and can prove the same letter. What you agree on is that the righteous are sleeping until the resurrection day of the bodies of all! He was in error on this, as he was on a few more doctrine, like baptizing babies, etc.

Later, I must run. RB

Sorry for being in a rush.

Offline 4WD

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #101 on: Thu Jun 09, 2022 - 07:41:23 »
That is not an answer. It is changing the subject. So be it. You of course do not have to answer anything you do not wish to.
I didn't intend it as an answer.  I intended, though perhaps clumsily, that either your definition of "literal" is all screwed up or your thinking about regeneration is all screwed up.  Of course it could be both. Regeneration is a literal event. There is nothing unreal or false about the new birth. The coming to life again spiritually is real; it is true, it is an actual event. You, on the other hand, seem to be implying that it is not, declaring the resurrection at Jesus' return as literal in contrast to regeneration.

Offline 4WD

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #102 on: Thu Jun 09, 2022 - 08:21:08 »


Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The highlighted verse above is no doubt a reference to spiritual death and resurrection, in that all must die the same in order to actually pass from death to life. And such is assured for those in Christ. Scripture does however address exactly when that eternal life is given and takes effect, which is at the literal resurrection, since even the saved sleep the sleep of death until that time. Save among those of course, alive when our Lord Returns. The rest of the verses above however, shift to details regarding the literal resurrection as is made obvious by the references to both the graves mentioned, and the resurrection of the wicked who themselves do not ever die spiritual death 
unto spiritual resurrection and newness of life. While spiritual resurrection is alway implied regarding the saved, it has no application regarding the wicked.
There is no "sleep of death".  Sleep is often used as a euphemism for physical death in the Bible. It not a description of the intermediate state of being between the end of physical life and the resurrection at Jesus' second coming.

Quote from: Amo
The rest of the verses above however, shift to details regarding the literal resurrection as is made obvious by the references to both the graves mentioned, and the resurrection of the wicked who themselves do not ever die spiritual death 
I can't decide if you meant what you said there or that you don't really understand what is being said in those verses.

The "wicked who themselves do not ever die spiritual death"?? What nonsense is that?  Paul said that all "have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:23), that is, all have died spiritually. Some however will hear and believe and live again spiritually . They will be spiritually resurrected. They live and HAVE eternal life.(John 5:24)
« Last Edit: Thu Jun 09, 2022 - 08:23:17 by 4WD »

Offline Amo

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #103 on: Sat Jun 11, 2022 - 10:13:21 »
Quote
There is no "sleep of death".  Sleep is often used as a euphemism for physical death in the Bible. It not a description of the intermediate state of being between the end of physical life and the resurrection at Jesus' second coming.

To the contrary, the bible speaks plainly about the sleep of death, you simply ignore or reject what it says because it doesn't support what you have chosen to believe. As you do so many other scriptures for the same reason.

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Psa 13:3  Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

The dead are referred to as asleep fifty some odd times in scripture. The scriptures also state that the dead know nothing of what goes on in this world, think nothing of it, and do not even worship God. None of which people sleeping do either.

Quote
The "wicked who themselves do not ever die spiritual death"?? What nonsense is that?  Paul said that all "have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:23), that is, all have died spiritually. Some however will hear and believe and live again spiritually . They will be spiritually resurrected. They live and HAVE eternal life.(John 5:24)

There you go creating confusion again, in order to defend your erroneous views. So, if everyone has already died spiritually, then why do the saved have to die again spiritually in order to be saved? You are combining separate issues unto confusion. Now you have the saved dying the second death which only the wicked are supposed to die, and being part of the second resurrection which only the wicked experience in order to be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.

I understand the concept you are promoting, which in itself contains truth, as in all spiritually died at the fall which itself leads to literal death. Though I don't think scripture actually states anywhere that the wicked have died a spiritual death. Scripture however, certainly does not anywhere suggest that the resurrection of the wicked unto damnation has anything to do with the fact that they spiritually died at the fall. Such of course then, would also require a resurrection from that death, in order to die again as they do, unto the second resurrection and death they will die in the future. Which would mean the wicked die three times, not twice. This concept is extra biblical.

Nor should one forget, that scripture does not declare that humanity dies simply because they fell, but rather because God removed them from the tree of life which did in fact sustain their lives. As God intended. Which the saved will again have access to in the new heaven and earth. Eternal life is not just because we will have our new spiritual bodies, but because we also partake again of the tree of life.

Gen 3:22  And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. 6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. 7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. 8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. 10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.




Offline 4WD

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #104 on: Sat Jun 11, 2022 - 11:46:17 »
To the contrary, the bible speaks plainly about the sleep of death, you simply ignore or reject what it says because it doesn't support what you have chosen to believe. As you do so many other scriptures for the same reason.
As I noted, the word "sleep" is often used as an euphemism for death. That is clearly the case for both passages of scripture you posted.

Do you even know what an euphemism is.  We use them all the time.  How about Kick the bucket? That is an euphemish for dying also.  Does it mean one who has "Kicked the bucket" has actually kicked a bucket? Not likely.  How about fire as an euphemism for terminating employment? Does that mean one who has been fired from his job has actually been lit on fire? Nah, I don't think so.
Quote from: Amo
There you go creating confusion again, in order to defend your erroneous views. So, if everyone has already died spiritually, then why do the saved have to die again spiritually in order to be saved?
What in heavens name are you talking about.  The saved do not have to die again spiritually.  I have never said that or anything like that. I don't recall anyone else ever saying such a stupid thing. Where would you get such an idea.
Quote from: Amo
I understand the concept you are promoting, which in itself contains truth, as in all spiritually died at the fall which itself leads to literal death. Though I don't think scripture actually states anywhere that the wicked have died a spiritual death. Scripture however, certainly does not anywhere suggest that the resurrection of the wicked unto damnation has anything to do with the fact that they spiritually died at the fall. Such of course then, would also require a resurrection from that death, in order to die again as they do, unto the second resurrection and death they will die in the future. Which would mean the wicked die three times, not twice. This concept is extra biblical.

Nor should one forget, that scripture does not declare that humanity dies simply because they fell, but rather because God removed them from the tree of life which did in fact sustain their lives. As God intended. Which the saved will again have access to in the new heaven and earth. Eternal life is not just because we will have our new spiritual bodies, but because we also partake again of the tree of life.

Most of that is just complete absolute nonsense.

 

     
anything