Author Topic: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?  (Read 3065 times)

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Offline dan p

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HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« on: Thu May 26, 2022 - 15:07:42 »
 Have anyone  here  ever  heard about  SOUL  SLEEP ?

 THERE  are some that say , when you die , your SOUL  sleeps in the  Grave .

 I do not  believe it  , BUT  there are some that believe this  HERESY !!

 How do you handle it as in  John 3:13  says that  NO  MAN hath  ascended up to  HEAVEN  , but He that came down from  Heaven , even the  Son of Man which is in  Heaven , seems to  imply that when a  man dies he has to  be in the  GRAVE .

 How will you  defend against this HERESY ?

 dan p

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #1 on: Thu May 26, 2022 - 16:01:19 »
Where do bad folks go when they DIE?

They don't go to HEAVEN where the ANGELS fly

They go to the LAKE OF FIRE and fry

See 'em again 'til the fourth of JULY!

Offline Alan

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #2 on: Thu May 26, 2022 - 16:55:06 »
Have anyone  here  ever  heard about  SOUL  SLEEP ?

 THERE  are some that say , when you die , your SOUL  sleeps in the  Grave .

 I do not  believe it  , BUT  there are some that believe this  HERESY !!

 How do you handle it as in  John 3:13  says that  NO  MAN hath  ascended up to  HEAVEN  , but He that came down from  Heaven , even the  Son of Man which is in  Heaven , seems to  imply that when a  man dies he has to  be in the  GRAVE .

 How will you  defend against this HERESY ?

 dan p


So what exactly does happen when a person dies?

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #3 on: Thu May 26, 2022 - 17:00:46 »
So what exactly does happen when a person dies?
The correct answer is I DON'T KNOW and anyone who says more than that is selling something.  ::noworries::

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #3 on: Thu May 26, 2022 - 17:00:46 »

Offline dan p

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #4 on: Thu May 26, 2022 - 18:10:21 »
  And  , not  long  ago we had the  problem and they are  many that hold that  view .

 And in  John 3:13  it  reads , And  no man hath  ASCENDED  up to Heaven ,  bur n He that came  DOWN  from  Heaven ,  even the  Son  of  MAN .

 If that  verse means  what it  says , and who  ever dies CAN   NOT  ascend to heaven , than they will say , the  person , than is still in the  GRAVE and they call that  SOUL  SLEEP , which I say is  HERESY .

 So  I see two  questions , #1  where do the  saved by  GRACE go when he  dies ?

 And  where does a person  under KINGDOM  OF  HEAVEN  PREACHING go at his  death ?

 I see two  answers , either  JEWS  and  GENTILES !!

 And what I am  selling is what the  bible  says !!

 dan p
« Last Edit: Thu Jun 02, 2022 - 12:37:48 by dan p »

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #4 on: Thu May 26, 2022 - 18:10:21 »

Offline RB

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #5 on: Fri May 27, 2022 - 04:05:29 »
Have anyone  here  ever  heard about  SOUL  SLEEP ?
Of course~ALL of the wicked are sleeping in the grave at this present time. The righteous are WITH CHRIST simply because they have ETERNAL LIFE and cannot die in the true sense of that word.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 11:24-26~"Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 8:51~"Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death."
Quote
And in  John 3:13  it reads, And no man hath ASCENDED up to Heaven,  but He that came DOWN from Heaven, even the  Son of MAN.

 If that verse means what it says, and whoever dies CAN NOT ascend to heaven
You must give scriptures its proper sense, so it means.....of his own power NO MAN has ever done what Jesus could do! ~Jesus was BOTH in heaven as he was speaking and on the earth as he was speaking, which speaks of his complex nature of being BOTH God and man.
Quote from:  dan p on: Yesterday at 18:10:21
the person, then is still in the  GRAVE and they call that  SOUL  SLEEP, which I say is  HERESY.
It is not heresy to teach the wicked are sleeping in the grave until the resurrection but would be heresy to say the righteous do not live with Christ now.
Quote from: dan p on: Yesterday at 18:10:21
So I see two questions, #1  where does one saved by GRACE go when he dies ?
Where Christ is far above all in the heavens.
Quote
Philippians 1:23~"For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:"
Very clear.
Quote from: dan p on: Yesterday at 18:10:21
And where does a person under KINGDOM OF HEAVEN  PREACHING go at his death?
The kingdom of heaven, of God and the NT area are all one and the same.
Quote
I see two answers, either JEWS and GENTILES!! And what I am selling is what the bible says!!
Prove what you are attempting to say, so far you have not explained what you are saying, and pretty you are selling something that may have poison in it.
« Last Edit: Fri May 27, 2022 - 07:57:46 by RB »

Offline DaveW

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #6 on: Fri May 27, 2022 - 05:54:28 »
Have anyone  here  ever  heard about  SOUL  SLEEP ?
 THERE  are some that say , when you die , your SOUL  sleeps in the  Grave .
 I do not  believe it  , BUT  there are some that believe this  HERESY !!
 How do you handle it as in  John 3:13  says that  NO  MAN hath  ascended up to  HEAVEN  , but He that came down from  Heaven , even the  Son of Man which is in  Heaven , seems to  imply that when a  man dies he has to  be in the  GRAVE .
 How will you  defend against this HERESY ?
To call it a heresy is an overstatement. I put it as more of a misunderstanding.  It is based on the assumption that God and Eternity are on the same time zone as we are here in this world.  I believe there is sufficient biblical support to state that God and His eternity exist entirely outside our perception of time. 

If time is different there (if it even exists) then someone "sleeping" for hundreds or thousands of years until the final judgement is unnecessary as that person is immediately there, whether they died 5 minutes ago or 5 millennia ago.

Offline Amo

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #7 on: Fri May 27, 2022 - 09:05:18 »
Soul sleep is not really an accurate term concerning most I believe, of us "heretics", who believe in the sleep of the dead. Most believe a living soul, is composed of the flesh or being created by God, united with the spirit or life giving breath of God. When one dies, the spirit or breath of God goes back to Him, the flesh or being goes back to the dust from where it came. Consciousness ends, similar to sleep in that such are not any longer aware of present realities or events. Therefore the biblical term and expression of the sleep of the dead.

One of the most famous "heretics", Martin Luther, was guilty of this supposed "heresy" as well. Along with many others throughout history, whom few if any suspect of believing so today. Those who believe so are no "heretics", according to scripture, but simply those drawing logical conclusions from the very many scriptures suggesting the same.

Psa 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
« Last Edit: Fri May 27, 2022 - 09:08:12 by Amo »

Offline DaveW

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #8 on: Fri May 27, 2022 - 09:23:23 »
@Amo  Would you not agree that idea that we "sleep" or "lose consciousness" between the time of death and the resurrection for final judgement is based on the idea that both here and the other side experiences time in the same way?   IOW, one year here = one year over there.

But God said that a thousand years here is like one day over there and that a thousand years over there is like a day here.  The only way that is possible is for our time line and the one on the other side (if there even is one there) to be totally out of sync.

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #8 on: Fri May 27, 2022 - 09:23:23 »

Offline Amo

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #9 on: Fri May 27, 2022 - 10:01:25 »
@Amo  Would you not agree that idea that we "sleep" or "lose consciousness" between the time of death and the resurrection for final judgement is based on the idea that both here and the other side experiences time in the same way?   IOW, one year here = one year over there.

But God said that a thousand years here is like one day over there and that a thousand years over there is like a day here.  The only way that is possible is for our time line and the one on the other side (if there even is one there) to be totally out of sync.

Not really. The dead experience nothing, they are dead. I would and do agree, that to the dead, it will seem but an instant between their death and life again. As they have and will have no experience or recollection of the time spent dead. Being raised as it would seem to them, immediately after said death, all thoughts having ceased at death. Either unto the resurrection of life, or the resurrection of damnation.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. 7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. 8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment. 9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun. 10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Psa 146:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise the LORD, O my soul. 2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. 3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Offline DaveW

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #10 on: Fri May 27, 2022 - 10:22:50 »
Not really. The dead experience nothing, they are dead. I would and do agree, that to the dead, it will seem but an instant between their death and life again.
That statement presupposes that they are on the same timeline, that someone who died in OT times is unconscious for 3000 years or more until the resurrection.

Can you really say they are on the same timeline? Based on what?

The bible says God sees the end from the beginning.  If HE is outside of time looking at it, that makes perfect sense. 

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #11 on: Fri May 27, 2022 - 11:35:20 »
@Amo  Would you not agree that idea that we "sleep" or "lose consciousness" between the time of death and the resurrection for final judgement is based on the idea that both here and the other side experiences time in the same way?   IOW, one year here = one year over there.

But God said that a thousand years here is like one day over there and that a thousand years over there is like a day here.  The only way that is possible is for our time line and the one on the other side (if there even is one there) to be totally out of sync.
Your whole post pre-supposes that the afterlife exists in some sort of science-fiction alternate reality/dimension/timeline.

The Bible treats both heaven and hell as existing in the same plane of reality that we're in.  It does not even consider the idea of alternate realities - that idea doesn't exist for thousands of years after the Bible was canonized.  ::lookaround::

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #12 on: Fri May 27, 2022 - 15:31:38 »
Your whole post pre-supposes that the afterlife exists in some sort of science-fiction alternate reality/dimension/timeline.

The Bible treats both heaven and hell as existing in the same plane of reality that we're in.  It does not even consider the idea of alternate realities - that idea doesn't exist for thousands of years after the Bible was canonized.  ::lookaround::
It is fairly certain that this finite universe is finite.  I believe there is no such finite limit to the heaven of God's existing.  In fact, given that both space and time are physical creations, then it seems logical to think that God is outside of both in the sense that apart from this physical universe there is neither space nor time.  I believe that will be the reality, the "dimension", of the final afterlife.

We could hypothesize the intermediate state between physical death of the individual and the judgment at the second coming of Jesus Christ. Many have.  I don't know that I agree with any that I have read about.

BTW, what is a "plane of reality"?  We sau. and I believe, that God is omnipresent, that He is everywhere.  What does that mean?
« Last Edit: Fri May 27, 2022 - 15:35:56 by 4WD »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #13 on: Fri May 27, 2022 - 16:51:24 »
It is fairly certain that this finite universe is finite.
It might be?  I don't think that's certain at all.  We know its expanding, but we really don't know whether it will expand forever or whether it will hit a limit and contract into a Big Crunch.  This is probably missing the point, though...

I believe there is no such finite limit to the heaven of God's existing.  In fact, given that both space and time are physical creations, then it seems logical to think that God is outside of both in the sense that apart from this physical universe there is neither space nor time.  I believe that will be the reality, the "dimension", of the final afterlife.
I don't think that's how that works.  If God exists in, say, 10 dimensions... that wouldn't mean that he's outside of the 4 dimensions we experience all the time.  On the contrary, it would mean that He occupies them, plus others. ::shrug::

We could hypothesize the intermediate state between physical death of the individual and the judgment at the second coming of Jesus Christ. Many have.  I don't know that I agree with any that I have read about.
Agree.  My first comment here was basically "nobody really knows."

BTW, what is a "plane of reality"?  We sau. and I believe, that God is omnipresent, that He is everywhere.  What does that mean?
Probably just a bad choice of words.  ::noworries::  This all takes me back to calculus, linear equations, and a whole lot of vector equations.  My brain wants to model what we're talking about in 3-space or 4-space, hence you get "planes of reality."

Jarrod


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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #14 on: Fri May 27, 2022 - 19:21:47 »
That statement presupposes that they are on the same timeline, that someone who died in OT times is unconscious for 3000 years or more until the resurrection.

Can you really say they are on the same timeline? Based on what?

The bible says God sees the end from the beginning.  If HE is outside of time looking at it, that makes perfect sense.

It is not about time lines or not, it is about consciousness or not. What God is, and what we are alive or dead, are of course two very different things.

Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Who is the resurrection, the life, and the way? Is it not Jesus Christ? Who died for humanity, and rose again unto life. This is when the saved receive life and or consciuosness again, just as their Lord and Savior did as well.

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

It is called the resurrection of life for a reason.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.





Offline RB

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #15 on: Sat May 28, 2022 - 02:55:04 »
Not really. The dead experience nothing, they are dead. I would and do agree, that to the dead, it will seem but an instant between their death and life again. As they have and will have no experience or recollection of the time spent dead. Being raised as it would seem to them, immediately after said death, all thoughts having ceased at death. Either unto the resurrection of life, or the resurrection of damnation.
There are basically three schools of thought on this subject and all three have been expressed in this short thread.

Amo, I agree with much you said above, with one exception~the righteous will never see death in the purest sense of those words. You and the SDA, believe they will, this is heresy.

Now, if you want to discuss this with me let's do so, so others can test our teachings/beliefs with the word of God.

I know what Martin Luther taught, what I do not know is did he ever change his understanding of this subject, and some of them did, as I have. I was taught in a present burning hellfire, yet could not find support from the scriptures on that heresy, and dropped it. I have found myself much like Agustine who went through several stages of conversions during his life as a believer. 

So, if you like then let us discuss our understanding so other can profit, either from one of us having the truth, or judging that we BOTH yet need to be more perfectly converted, which I'm always ready to test my teachings with the holy scriptures. I desire nothing more than speaking as the oracles of God teach, and trust you have the same spirit of faith when it comes to being as close to the teachings of God's word. 

I do not believe Dan will have very much more to say concerning this subject. I think he has pretty much exhausted his understanding on life after death...... yea or nay.

Offline Amo

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #16 on: Sat May 28, 2022 - 09:55:49 »
There are basically three schools of thought on this subject and all three have been expressed in this short thread.

Amo, I agree with much you said above, with one exception~the righteous will never see death in the purest sense of those words. You and the SDA, believe they will, this is heresy.

Now, if you want to discuss this with me let's do so, so others can test our teachings/beliefs with the word of God.

I know what Martin Luther taught, what I do not know is did he ever change his understanding of this subject, and some of them did, as I have. I was taught in a present burning hellfire, yet could not find support from the scriptures on that heresy, and dropped it. I have found myself much like Agustine who went through several stages of conversions during his life as a believer. 

So, if you like then let us discuss our understanding so other can profit, either from one of us having the truth, or judging that we BOTH yet need to be more perfectly converted, which I'm always ready to test my teachings with the holy scriptures. I desire nothing more than speaking as the oracles of God teach, and trust you have the same spirit of faith when it comes to being as close to the teachings of God's word. 

I do not believe Dan will have very much more to say concerning this subject. I think he has pretty much exhausted his understanding on life after death...... yea or nay.

In a certain sense we agree. I do not consider the first "death" to be actual death. Therefore the biblical term and expression of the sleep of the dead. People who are simply sleeping eventually wake back up, as all who have died the first death will, in the resurrections unto life or damnation. Sleeping people wake up, dead people don't.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Everyone will be awakened from the first death unto judgment, therefore are all who die the first death are referred to as asleep in scripture. No one is actually dead yet, though they are no longer in a conscious state and or aware of anything done under the sun or anywhere else for the matter. Yet they shall once again be in the land of the living, some for a short while, others forever more.

 Those who will be raised unto eternal life of course, never really died, but only slept the sleep of the first death until God accomplished His purposes regarding life, death, and the resurrection altogether. Praise His holy name, and Jesus Christ His only begotten Son, through whom all may be raised unto eternal life in perfect and willing submission to God the Father unto properly established and ordered creation once again.

The sleep of the dead ends after the resurrections. Those who die the second death in the lake of fire, are not asleep, they will never be awakened again. They are dead, no more, and the memory of them will be completely forgotten. As though they never were. Their fate being the same as that of the evil one whom they chose to follow. Very sad really, considering the potential they all had.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

per·ish (pµr“¹sh) v. per·ished, per·ish·ing, per·ish·es. --intr. 1. To die or be destroyed, especially in a violent or untimely manner. 2. To pass from existence; disappear gradually. 3. Chiefly British. To spoil or deteriorate. --tr. To bring to destruction; destroy. --idiom. perish the thought. Used to express the wish that one not even think about something.

Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Ps 68:1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. 2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God. 3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.

Ps 73:27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.

Ps 112:10 The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.

Isa 41:11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish. 12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.


John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

II Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Pet 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gommorrha suffered the vengeance of eternal fire, they are no more, they perished.






« Last Edit: Sat May 28, 2022 - 09:59:02 by Amo »

Offline dan p

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #17 on: Sat May 28, 2022 - 16:56:22 »
 And sorry to m disappoint you as I have much to say !!

 I asked , where do those under the Law of  Moses go , when they  DIE ?

 In  Luke 23:23 and  the  THIEF that hung on that cross  , said to Christ  , remember  me when thou comest into thy  KINGDOM .

 That  thief is talking  about Christ  Kingdom ,which  places that  Kingdom in the  MILLENNIUM .

 And  Jesus said  unto him ,  today shalt thou  be with  ME  in  Paradise .

 So  where is  PARADISE ??

Luke 16:22 and   23 pin points where Paradise is an  , is that his  SOUL  or  SPIRIT ?

So where do believers of the  Body of  Christ go after  DEATH ?

 danvp
« Last Edit: Sat May 28, 2022 - 17:22:45 by dan p »

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #18 on: Sun May 29, 2022 - 06:00:48 »
In a certain sense we agree.
We agree completely concerning the wicked~there's no difference with our understanding.
Quote from:  Amo on: Yesterday at 09:55:49
I do not consider the first "death" to be actual death.
The first death is spiritual, which without the second birth leaves a person under the sentence of the second death having power over them.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Revelation 20:6~"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The "first" resurrection is the new birth which gives all who are born of God eternal life, a life that has no end once you are born of God, that person shall never taste of death in the truest sense of death. The old man will perish in the grave, but a glorified body with be provided for them in the resurrection to be united with their spirits that are NOW with Christ.

First, the first resurrection is the new birth.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST who was no SDA
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."
Once resurrected, that person will neve die but will live and reign with Christ for ever more, Even though for now only the spirits which has been made JUST, are reigning, yet the full sense of this will be realized and come to fruition after the judgment of the last day.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Hebews 12:22,23~"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,"
In closing:
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Revelation 20:4,5~"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
The wicked DO NOT live until the resurrection of the last day, but ALL who have been resurrected from the dead spiritually by the same power which raised our Lord from the dead will never see death in the truest sense of the word death in any form whatsoever!  All of God's people said AMEN and AMEN to the true sayings of God.
« Last Edit: Sun May 29, 2022 - 06:03:05 by RB »

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #19 on: Sun May 29, 2022 - 06:11:58 »
And sorry to m disappoint you as I have much to say !!

 I asked , where do those under the Law of  Moses go , when they  DIE ?

 In  Luke 23:23 and  the  THIEF that hung on that cross  , said to Christ  , remember  me when thou comest into thy  KINGDOM .

 That  thief is talking  about Christ  Kingdom ,which  places that  Kingdom in the  MILLENNIUM .

 And  Jesus said  unto him ,  today shalt thou  be with  ME  in  Paradise .

 So  where is  PARADISE ??

Luke 16:22 and   23 pin points where Paradise is an  , is that his  SOUL  or  SPIRIT ?

So where do believers of the  Body of  Christ go after  DEATH ?

 danvp
Dan I want to address your post but need time to do so~later today.

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #20 on: Sun May 29, 2022 - 08:00:34 »
I believe that there is an intermediate state between physical death and the resurrection for both the saved and the unsaved.  I think that is the message of Jesus story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16.  Tthat intermediate state is not well described in the Bible, but there are some things that can be said about it.  Maybe later but probably not.

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #21 on: Sun May 29, 2022 - 15:03:43 »
We agree completely concerning the wicked~there's no difference with our understanding. The first death is spiritual, which without the second birth leaves a person under the sentence of the second death having power over them.The "first" resurrection is the new birth which gives all who are born of God eternal life, a life that has no end once you are born of God, that person shall never taste of death in the truest sense of death. The old man will perish in the grave, but a glorified body with be provided for them in the resurrection to be united with their spirits that are NOW with Christ.

First, the first resurrection is the new birth. Once resurrected, that person will neve die but will live and reign with Christ for ever more, Even though for now only the spirits which has been made JUST, are reigning, yet the full sense of this will be realized and come to fruition after the judgment of the last day. In closing:The wicked DO NOT live until the resurrection of the last day, but ALL who have been resurrected from the dead spiritually by the same power which raised our Lord from the dead will never see death in the truest sense of the word death in any form whatsoever!  All of God's people said AMEN and AMEN to the true sayings of God.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So, you believe in the pre-advent judgment described above, which includes the judgment of saints who are in heaven now? If the first death must be a spiritual one because there is scriptural analogy concerning such, then the first resurrection must be as well, having scriptural analogy as well. The thousand years is now, during which time the investigative judgement is gong on I suppose, until the second literal resurrection? Is this what you believe? What else can it be?

Rom 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

If this is in fact what Revelation 20 is speaking of in the verse you quoted within the enlarged context I quoted, then both the first death and resurrection have taken place already. The saints are involved in an investigative pre-advent judgement right now, represented by the thousand years. And nothing but the second resurrection and death now await the saved and wicked alike. Is this your understanding? If so why? How can this be? This kind of messes up other scriptural testimony concerning the literal resurrection of the saved in the yet future, doesn't it?

It makes the saved part of the second resurrection and second death. In that the first is spiritual only as described by Paul. This means the saved die the second death and are part of the second resurrection according to the following scriptural testimony.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Would the above not be concerning the second death and therefore resurrection also, according to your understanding?

Joh 6:39  And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.....................
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


As well as the above?

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

And the above also. Shall I go on?
« Last Edit: Sun May 29, 2022 - 15:13:48 by Amo »

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #22 on: Mon May 30, 2022 - 04:29:11 »
And sorry to disappoint you as I have much to say!! I asked, where do those under the Law of Moses go when they DIE? In  Luke 23:23 the THIEF that hung on that cross, said to Christ, remember me when thou comest into thy  KINGDOM. That thief is talking about Christ's Kingdom, which places that  Kingdom in the MILLENNIUM. And  Jesus said unto him, today shalt thou be with ME in Paradise. So where is PARADISE?? Luke 16:22 and 23 pinpoints where Paradise is an, is that his SOUL or SPIRIT? So where do believers of the Body of Christ go after  DEATH? dan p
They went to be with God and the rest of the just spirits who had been made perfect by grace through the redemption which is in Jesus Christ. No man can speak particularly on such subjects, since none of us have been there regardless of some claims by false prophets. I'm reminded of a verse that said:
Quote from: JOHN
1st John 3:2~"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."
Where Jesus is now is called paradise, it is far above ALL according to Ephesians one~other than that, we just do not know.
Quote from: dan p on: Sat May 28, 2022 - 16:56:22
That thief is talking about Christ's Kingdom, which places that  Kingdom in the MILLENNIUM.
It does, yet the millennium is NOW, it is a spiritual rule, not literal, one day after this world passeth away and a new world is created in its place, THEN it will be literal, but not until then. This is a totally different subject that would take a few post to cover. 
Quote from: dan p on: Sat May 28, 2022 - 16:56:22
So where do believers of the Body of Christ go after  DEATH? dan p
UP...... far above ALL.
Quote from: Paul
Ephesains 1:20,21~"Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Paul was caught UP...Jesus went UP in Acts one.....So, when a saint dies he goes UP far above ALL, but to explain this process we cannot.

We do not need to explain this to make it true, it is true because God said that it is, our lack of ability to prove this does not add or takeaway its truthfulness. By faith, we take hold of the teaching of this Biblically doctrine.
« Last Edit: Mon May 30, 2022 - 04:32:00 by RB »

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #23 on: Mon May 30, 2022 - 05:39:32 »
I will let RB respond first to Amo's reply #21, which I expect that he will do.  If he doesn't, then perhaps I will do so.  But he and I are very close in our beliefs on this topic and I expect that he will cover it quite adequately. After that if I need to add to it, perhaps I will then.

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #24 on: Mon May 30, 2022 - 14:47:56 »
So, you believe in the pre-advent judgment described above, which includes the judgment of saints who are in heaven now? If the first death must be a spiritual one because there is scriptural analogy concerning such, then the first resurrection must be as well, having scriptural analogy as well. The thousand years is now, during which time the investigative judgement is gong on I suppose, until the second literal resurrection? Is this what you believe? What else can it be?
Pre-advent Judgment of saints? No, they were judged IN CHRIST, we are even NOW without a spot or blemish in Christ.
Quote
Galatians 2:20~"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
Our stewardship will be judged, but nothing more~and truly we all will instantly know when we hear Christ welcome us into his everlasting kingdom.
Quote
Matthew 25:23~  "His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord."
On these things we cannot speak particularly since very little is revealed to us. But saints will NOT be judged, only the wicked will~saints will do the judging even of angels.
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 6:3~"Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?"
Other than that yes this is our understanding.
Quote from: Amo on: Yesterday at 15:03:43
If this is in fact what Revelation 20 is speaking of in the verse you quoted within the enlarged context I quoted, then both the first death and resurrection have taken place already. The saints are involved in an investigative pre-advent judgment right now, represented by the thousand years.And nothing but the second resurrection and death now await the  saved and wicked alike. Is this your understanding? If so why? How can this be? This kind of messes up other scriptural testimony concerning the literal resurrection of the saved in the yet future, doesn't it?
Well, Amo, first, the righteous, or saved CAN NOT truly die in the trustest sense of death. The bodies (the old Adam) will go back to dust, yet their NEW MAN cannot die The new man shall never taste of death, IMPOSSIBLE! The Pharisees could not understand this truth and even mocked Christ when he clearly testified a believer shall never see death.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 8:51-53~Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
Well, these blind Pharisees did not know that Abraham was LIVING along with every child of God since Abel. God is not the God of the dead, but of the LIVING! Do you agree with this Amo?
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 22:32~I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Jesus speaking to Sadducees said:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Mark 12:27~"He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err."
Amo. I say the very same words to you~"Ye, therefore, do greatly err", believing as you do that the righteous dead are not NOW living with Christ.
Quote from: Amo on: Yesterday at 15:03:43
It makes the saved part of the second resurrection and second death. In that the first is spiritual only as described by Paul. This means the saved die the second death and are part of the second resurrection according to the following scriptural testimony.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Would the above not be concerning the second death and therefore resurrection also, according to your understanding?
It is very hard to follow your reasoning, mainly because you are confused about the first resurrection being spiritual over which the second death has no power over.

1st Corinthians 15:50-55 has not one thing to do with the second death, but is simply describing the second coming of Christ and the resurrection which is one and the same.

There is only going to be ONE BODILY resurrection of ALL people both of the righteous and the wicked that will occur on the LAST day at the LAST trump~for the righteous, it is simply united of our NEW MAN with its new glorified body. A spiritual body of power, glory, honor, and heavenly image that will be eternal.

1st Corinthians 15:50-55 is not about the second death even though it is very true many will be resurrected unto damnation or destruction in the lake of fire.
Quote
Daniel 12:2~"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
The ones resurrected to everlasting life means their heavenly bodies that they will receive at the resurrection will never be destroyed. It does not mean that they JUST received eternal life...... they have had eternal life from the new birth on, (though promised from the foundation of the world (Titus 1:2 ) the realization of this life is now a full-blown reality.
« Last Edit: Mon May 30, 2022 - 14:56:25 by RB »

Offline Amo

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #25 on: Mon May 30, 2022 - 16:27:12 »
Pre-advent Judgment of saints? No, they were judged IN CHRIST, we are even NOW without a spot or blemish in Christ.  Our stewardship will be judged, but nothing more~and truly we all will instantly know when we hear Christ welcome us into his everlasting kingdom. On these things we cannot speak particularly since very little is revealed to us. But saints will NOT be judged, only the wicked will~saints will do the judging even of angels. Other than that yes this is our understanding. Well, Amo, first, the righteous, or saved CAN NOT truly die in the trustest sense of death. The bodies (the old Adam) will go back to dust, yet their NEW MAN cannot die The new man shall never taste of death, IMPOSSIBLE! The Pharisees could not understand this truth and even mocked Christ when he clearly testified a believer shall never see death. Well, these blind Pharisees did not know that Abraham was LIVING along with every child of God since Abel. God is not the God of the dead, but of the LIVING! Do you agree with this Amo? Jesus speaking to Sadducees said: Amo. I say the very same words to you~"Ye, therefore, do greatly err", believing as you do that the righteous dead are not NOW living with Christ. It is very hard to follow your reasoning, mainly because you are confused about the first resurrection being spiritual over which the second death has no power over.

1st Corinthians 15:50-55 has not one thing to do with the second death, but is simply describing the second coming of Christ and the resurrection which is one and the same.

There is only going to be ONE BODILY resurrection of ALL people both of the righteous and the wicked that will occur on the LAST day at the LAST trump~for the righteous, it is simply united of our NEW MAN with its new glorified body. A spiritual body of power, glory, honor, and heavenly image that will be eternal.

1st Corinthians 15:50-55 is not about the second death even though it is very true many will be resurrected unto damnation or destruction in the lake of fire. The ones resurrected to everlasting life means their heavenly bodies that they will receive at the resurrection will never be destroyed. It does not mean that they JUST received eternal life...... they have had eternal life from the new birth on, (though promised from the foundation of the world (Titus 1:2 ) the realization of this life is now a full-blown reality.

A lot of run around. Let me simplify the questions, then maybe you can simply your answers.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

(1) If the above first resurrection spoken of, is the spiritual resurrection spoken of in the new testament, then what would you call the literal resurrection of the saints after this one? Would it not be then of course a second resurrection?

(2) If the above first resurrection is actually in reference to the spiritual resurrection of which you refer, why does verse 4 refer to the resurrection of those who were literally killed by the beast because they would not receive its mark? That being the context, literal death, doesn't it seem likely the resurrection of such would be the literal one as well? The Amplified version is more specific.

Rev 20:4 And then I saw thrones, and sitting on them were those to whom judgment [that is, the authority to act as judges] was given. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had refused to worship the beast or his image, and had not accepted his mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

(3) Along these same lines of course then, there can be no first resurrection if there has not first been a first death. Correct? Death precedes resurrection, does it not? If in fact, the first resurrection of Revelation 20 is the spiritual resurrection of scripture you say it is, then of course the death preceding it would be the first death. Would it not? This creates quite a problem, as it concludes that the saved in fact die the or a second death, which is what our literal death would be and is according to the understanding you have presented.

May I suggest that the apparent contradiction within the scriptures which your understanding seems to create, is in fact created by placing a spiritual application where one does not belong. In that the context of these scriptures themselves speak of literal death and therefore no doubt resurrection as well. Spiritual death and resurrection are just that. They are precursors to the literal first and second deaths of scripture, and resurrections as well, by implication. Those who genuinely die them, are part of the first literal resurrection of life only, and therefore are not subject to the second literal death as well. While to the contrary, those who reject the spiritual death and resurrection in and by Christ Jesus our Lord alone, are in fact of the second literal resurrection unto damnation, and therefore the literal second death as well. This scenario avoiding the contradictions of scripture which the other creates.

(4) What exactly is the judgment given unto the saints during the thousand years, and when are these thousand years? How can the thousand years and judgment be going on now among those of spiritual death and resurrection only, before the beast enforces its mark upon all, which is apparently yet future? Spiritual death and resurrection simply do not seem to fit the context or details being addressed in these verses, without causing several contradictions. Please do expound. Perhaps answering one question at a time would create less confusion on the matter.

 
« Last Edit: Mon May 30, 2022 - 22:56:23 by Amo »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #26 on: Mon May 30, 2022 - 23:24:17 »
And  Jesus said  unto him ,  today shalt thou  be with  ME  in  Paradise .

 So where is  PARADISE ??
Paradise is the Garden of Eden.  In Revelation it's pictured as being in the heavens. 

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #27 on: Tue May 31, 2022 - 05:26:53 »
A lot of run around. Let me simplify the questions, then maybe you can simply your answers.
Amo, not a lot of run around, but confusion on one of our positions will not allow whoever has an unscriptural position to see the truth. But, I will simplify my answer even more than before, and that's okay, sometimes it is needed.
Quote from: Amo on: Yesterday at 16:27:12
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

(1) If the above first resurrection spoken of, is the spiritual resurrection spoken of in the new testament, then what would you call the literal resurrection of the saints after this one? Would it not be then of course a second resurrection?
Yes.
Quote from: Amo on: Yesterday at 16:27:12
(2) If the above first resurrection is actually in reference to the spiritual resurrection of which you refer, why does verse 4 refer to the resurrection of those who were literally killed by the beast because they would not receive its mark? That being the context, literal death, doesn't it seem likely the resurrection of such would be the literal one as well?

The Amplified version is more specific. Rev 20:4 And then I saw thrones, and sitting on them were those to whom judgment [that is, the authority to act as judges] was given. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had refused to worship the beast or his image, and had not accepted his mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Amo, the Amplified version (which is the preferred bible of the Pentecostals, mainly the prosperity side of the Pentecostals) who are premillennialist in their eschatology get the support of their heresy from such scriptures as the one you are quoting from by using the Amplified Version, the KJV will not give them that support~let me explain myself. 
Quote from: Amo
The Amplified version is more specific. Rev 20:4 And then I saw thrones, and sitting on them were those to whom judgment [that is, the authority to act as judges] was given. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had refused to worship the beast or his image, and had not accepted his mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Amo, they just DID NOT come to life, that's not what the first resurrection is, even though they desire for you to think they JUST CAME TO LIFE! This corrupt version is helping folks to continue believing in the lie of the "secret rapture" and a literal one thousand years region on the earth taking place at the FIRST resurrection the second to follow a thousand years later~that my friend is pure heresy. THESE SAINTS THOUGH SOME WERE BEHEADED were reigning with Christ~John calls this the FIRST resurrection.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Revelation 6:10,11~"And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Goes along perfectly with Revelation 20:4,5!  The Amplified Version helps folks to believe in this lie. Now let me quote the KJV: (other versions would work as well, such as the Geneva version, or truly any older version before 1700s. )
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Revelation 20:4,5~"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Amo, my friend, The first resurrection is a spiritual resurrection that gives the elect power to overcome the beast (the spirit of the devil) even though beheaded for the witness of Jesus Christ they STILL REIGN, while on earth they refuse to worship the beast neither his image they refused fellowship with the beast~the scriptures calls this THE FIRST RESURRECTION it has nothing to with their BODIES being resurrected, it is speaking of gift of eternal life and the result of those who possessed this gift. Once one is spiritually resurrected, he follows the Lamb wheresoever he leads them, even if into death, for death is not their enemy anymore it simply ushers us into God's holy presence where THERE we will reign with the SPIRITS of JUST men who have been made perfect~all that is left is them receiving their glorified bodies that they WILL receive in the resurrection at the last day.
Quote from: Amo on: Yesterday at 16:27:12
(3) Along these same lines of course then, there can be no first resurrection if there has not first been a first death. Correct? Death precedes resurrection, does it not? If in fact, the first resurrection of Revelation 20 is the spiritual resurrection of scripture you say it is, then of course the death preceding it would be the first death. Would it not?
YES
Quote from: Amo on: Yesterday at 16:27:12
This creates quite a problem, as it concludes that the saved in fact die the or a second death, which is what our literal death would be and is according to the understanding you have presented.
It is only a problem with the SDA community. Because we KNOW those folks who keep the sayings of God shall never see death per scriptures already given above.

Amo, the old Adam cannot inherit eternal life, it must die, yet, if a man is born again, he is in possession of eternal life in his NEW MAN, and THAT man cannot die! It is just that simple, your SDA doctrine keeps you from seeing this blessed truth in the holy scriptures that you seem to love and honor. You need to take sides with God's word....... TODAY.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
2nd Corinthians 6:2~(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
As far as coming to a more perfect knowledge of the truth~will you come, my friend?
Quote
May I suggest that the apparent contradiction within the scriptures which your understanding seems to create, is in fact created by placing a spiritual application where one does not belong. In that the context of these scriptures themselves speak of literal death and therefore no doubt resurrection as well. Spiritual death and resurrection are just that. They are precursors to the literal first and second deaths of scripture, and resurrections as well, by implication. Those who genuinely die them, are part of the first literal resurrection of life only, and therefore are not subject to the second literal death as well. While to the contrary, those who reject the spiritual death and resurrection in and by Christ Jesus our Lord alone, are in fact of the second literal resurrection unto damnation, and therefore the literal second death as well. This scenario avoiding the contradictions of scripture which the other creates.

(4) What exactly is the judgment given unto the saints during the thousand years, and when are these thousand years? How can the thousand years and judgment be going on now among those of spiritual death and resurrection only, before the beast enforces its mark upon all, which is apparently yet future? Spiritual death and resurrection simply do not seem to fit the context or details being addressed in these verses, without causing several contradictions. Please do expound. Perhaps answering one question at a time would create less confusion on the matter.
Amo, let me come back to this later since I have some appointments to meet very soon.
« Last Edit: Tue May 31, 2022 - 08:00:14 by RB »

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #28 on: Tue May 31, 2022 - 05:30:30 »
RB answered and you responded, so now I will address some of your response.
(1) If the above first resurrection spoken of, is the spiritual resurrection spoken of in the new testament, then what would you call the literal resurrection of the saints after this one? Would it not be then of course a second resurrection?
yes of course. First both resurrections are literal resurrections. Spiritual does not mean nonliteral. Jesus spoke of two resurrections in John 5.

The first resurrection: 24.Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. 25  "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

The second resurrection: 28  Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29  and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

We know that the first resurrection is not at the end of the age, since He says "an hour is coming, and is now here" So who are the dead who hear the voice of the Son of God and will live?  They are the spiritually dead, the same dead that Paul speaks of in Ephesians 2:1:  "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins" Paul goes on to describe them, echoing the very words of Jesus in John 5:25, Paul says, "even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ..."

The second resurrection spoken of by Jesus in John 5 is different, since He said specifically that "all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out". Clearly that resurrection is the resurrection at the end of the age when Jesus returns.

Now note that it is the ones who have experienced the first resurrection, those born again, that Revelation 20:6 tells us that "the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."
Quote from: Amo
(2) If the above first resurrection is actually in reference to the spiritual resurrection of which you refer, why does verse 4 refer to the resurrection of those who were literally killed by the beast because they would not receive its mark? That being the context, literal death, doesn't it seem likely the resurrection of such would be the literal one as well? The Amplified version is more specific.

Rev 20:4 And then I saw thrones, and sitting on them were those to whom judgment [that is, the authority to act as judges] was given. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had refused to worship the beast or his image, and had not accepted his mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

The problem you have here is that the KJV and others including, apparently the Amplified version, are bad translations.  First, in verse 4, there are two categories of persons who came to life. One is the martyrs beheaded because of their faith; John sees only their disembodied souls (see Rev 6:9). Thus we may conclude that they are in heaven. The second group consists of “those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand.” This cannot be the same group as the martyrs, for contrary to what is implied in the bad translations, there is no parallelism in the Greek phrasing translated “those who had been beheaded” and “those who had not worshiped.” The former phrase is a genitive participle and is correctly translated as modifying “souls.” The latter phrase, however, is an aorist verb preceded by the nominative plural relative pronoun, hoitines, “whoever,” which is the subject. That hoitines is nominative, not genitive, means that it does not modify “souls,” i.e., John does not say that he saw the souls of those who had not worshiped the beast. However the latter group is connected with “I saw” at the beginning of the verse, it is a broader category than the martyrs as such, and refers simply to whoever is not on Satan’s side, whether in heaven or on earth.
Quote from: Amo
(3) Along these same lines of course then, there can be no first resurrection if there has not first been a first death. Correct? Death precedes resurrection, does it not? If in fact, the first resurrection of Revelation 20 is the spiritual resurrection of scripture you say it is, then of course the death preceding it would be the first death. Would it not? This creates quite a problem, as it concludes that the saved in fact die the or a second death, which is what our literal death would be and is according to the understanding you have presented.
And that understanding is correct based upon what I have just explained to you above.
Quote from: Amo
(4) What exactly is the judgment given unto the saints during the thousand years, and when are these thousand years? How can the thousand years and judgment be going on now among those of spiritual death and resurrection only, before the beast enforces its mark upon all, which is apparently yet future? Spiritual death and resurrection simply do not seem to fit the context or details being addressed in these verses, without causing several contradictions. Please do expound. Perhaps answering one question at a time would create less confusion on the matter.
It is the first group of those John says he saw, the souls of those on the thrones in heaven, that judgment was given.  Here again your confusion comes from the bad translation of verse 4.
« Last Edit: Tue May 31, 2022 - 12:28:09 by 4WD »

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #29 on: Tue May 31, 2022 - 07:07:28 »
And  Jesus said  unto him ,  today shalt thou  be with  ME  in  Paradise .
There was no punctuation in the original text. Consider this:

Luke 23:43
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”


OR:

Luke 23:43
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.”


Both are equally valid.

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #30 on: Tue May 31, 2022 - 08:21:30 »
The second one doesn't make any sense in the context.  Why would Jesus indicate saying it "today"? There was not going to be any other day for him to say it.  Clearly Jesus meant that the thief would be with him in paradise "today".

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #31 on: Tue May 31, 2022 - 08:59:09 »
The second one doesn't make any sense in the context.  Why would Jesus indicate saying it "today"? There was not going to be any other day for him to say it.  Clearly Jesus meant that the thief would be with him in paradise "today".

Dave is 100% correct. The translators put the emphasis where they assumed made sense to them, and most readers of that verse assume it is correct. and a +1 for his catching this.

Dave said :

There was no punctuation in the original text. Consider this:

Luke 23:43
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

OR:

Luke 23:43
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

Both are equally valid.


I disagree that both are valid and see see total clarity in the 2nd.

You say...

The second one doesn't make any sense in the context.  Why would Jesus indicate saying it "today"? There was not going to be any other day for him to say it.  Clearly Jesus meant that the thief would be with him in paradise "today".

Wrong.

There would not be another day for either of them .

What better way to state something then to declare that on the very day they met (albeit, awkwardly on their respective crosses) when the one thief said... Remember me, O Lord when thou come into thy kingdom. And Jesus said And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.(KJV)

He was assuring this one of where he would be going.... which was not at all lost on the remaining crowd who were watching.

IOW... I see Jesus saying to this man....  I am telling telling you today... you WILL be with me in paradise.

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #32 on: Tue May 31, 2022 - 10:02:55 »
When else could Jeus tell that to the thief?  Even though Jesus was returning on the third day, the thief was not. Clearly Jesus wasn't saying to the thief when He was telling the thief he would be with Him in paradise; rather He was telling the thief when he would be with Him in paradise. Both were dying that day and both were going to be in paradise that day.

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #33 on: Tue May 31, 2022 - 10:32:46 »
When else could Jeus tell that to the thief?  Even though Jesus was returning on the third day, the thief was not. Clearly Jesus wasn't saying to the thief when He was telling the thief he would be with Him in paradise; rather He was telling the thief when he would be with Him in paradise. Both were dying that day and both were going to be in paradise that day.
Again, this makes the assumption that here and the afterlife are on the same time line. 

And perhaps the thief DID come back: 

Matthew 27:52
The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

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Re: HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT SOUL SLEEP ?
« Reply #34 on: Tue May 31, 2022 - 11:35:34 »
When else could Jeus tell that to the thief?  Even though Jesus was returning on the third day, the thief was not. Clearly Jesus wasn't saying to the thief when He was telling the thief he would be with Him in paradise; rather He was telling the thief when he would be with Him in paradise. Both were dying that day and both were going to be in paradise that day.

If you are equating Paradise with Heaven... as many do..... Then the thief would have gotten his rewards before Jesus actually
ascended to Heaven. 

We know that on the morning of the resurrection, there was a time when Christ had not yet ascended to heaven (see John 20:17)

"17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

If you equate Paradise as part of Hades( see Ephesians 4:9 ) then I suppose your argument could be sound, yet it would not take away from mine.

We are not told who actually died first. The thief or Jesus. Not that it matters but if the thief died first it could be that there was a point of waiting before reaching Paradise. [/size]