Author Topic: Heaven and earth agree...  (Read 1504 times)

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Offline grace

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Heaven and earth agree...
« on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 00:12:43 »
I do not want to debate whether water baptism is for salvation in this thread. The other thread seem to go over and over same arguments and get no where.

I would like to take a look at these three.
 
1. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For * * by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
*Seems to say that the Spirit is doing the baptism

2.Matt. 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
*Man does the baptizing

3.Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
*Jesus does the baptism

I see three! Salvation, water, Spirit
Is there a difference in the baptism OF the Spirit and baptism WITH the Spirit?

Jesus had all three...
He was born from above
Water baptism
Spirit baptism (Dove upon)

In Acts 2:38 I see three
Repent
baptized
Receive the HS

Act 8
Believe
baptized
Received HS by laying on of hands
This was 5 years after Pentecost.

Acts 10
Believed
HS upon
baptized
This was 10 years after Pentecost

Acts 19
Believed
baptized
lay hands and received HS
He ask them what they were baptized INTO.
25 years after Pentecost

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
What are they bearing witness of?   
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

When we are saved we become a new person.
When we are baptized the old person is cut off.
When we are HS baptized we have the power to walk out our salvation.
Complete work in three!

Tabernacle also describes this.
Only one way to enter.
Before they could enter in to the presence of God they first had to go through three.
Alter (Blood of the lamb)
Laver (wash with water)
Flask of oil that they anointed you with (Spirit)
What happened when they went into the Holy place without going through all three?
 

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Heaven and earth agree...
« on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 00:12:43 »

Offline Alan

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #1 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 04:41:25 »
What happened when they went into the Holy place without going through all three?
They didn't, only the high priest was permitted to enter the Holy of Holies, this is why Jesus sacrifice made it possible for you and I to enter the presence of God "unattended".


Offline 4WD

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #2 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 06:09:07 »
Jesus had all three...
He was born from above
Water baptism
Spirit baptism (Dove upon)
That is not correct.  Spirit baptism is not Spirit upon.  So long as you continue to insist that Baptism with the Holy Spirit is Spirit upon, you will continue to be confused. Jesus is the one who baptizes in/with the Holy Spirit.  He did not baptize Himself with the Holy Spirit.

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Is there a difference in the baptism OF the Spirit and baptism WITH the Spirit?
No, there is no difference. The Greek ἐν [en] in the phrase βαπτίσει ἐν Πνεύματι ῾Αγίῳ is variously translated as "baptize or baptism in/with/by/of the Holy Spirit."

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #2 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 06:09:07 »

Offline grace

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #3 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 07:00:48 »
That is not correct.  Spirit baptism is not Spirit upon.  So long as you continue to insist that Baptism with the Holy Spirit is Spirit upon, you will continue to be confused.
I am not confused about the Spirit upon. The Bible is clear that the HS came UPON Jesus. He will come UPON in Acts 1:8. He came UPON in many others in Acts.
Quote
Jesus is the one who baptizes in/with the Holy Spirit.  He did not baptize Himself with the Holy Spirit.
I know Jesus is the Baptizer with the HS
I did not say Jesus baptized himself. The HS came UPON HIM.
Quote
No, there is no difference. The Greek ἐν [en] in the phrase βαπτίσει ἐν Πνεύματι ῾Αγίῳ is variously translated as "baptize or baptism in/with/by/of the Holy Spirit."
So I guess it would depend on the context of the word when it was used.
Acts 12:13 says that by the Spirit we are baptized.
Matt. 28:19 Disciples baptized
Matt. 3:11 Jesus does the baptizing

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #3 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 07:00:48 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline grace

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #4 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 07:07:15 »
They didn't, only the high priest was permitted to enter the Holy of Holies, this is why Jesus sacrifice made it possible for you and I to enter the presence of God "unattended".
I understand it was the Lamb(Jesus) that was sacrificed and it was His blood. I understand that Jesus is our high priest.
But wasn't  the wall torn down so we can enter in boldly? (spiritually)
The priest would have died if they did not go through the whole process, right?
From the alter(sacrifice), laver(washing),Flax of oil (anointing). So can we ignore any of the three before we enter into his presence?

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #4 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 07:07:15 »



Offline soterion

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #5 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 07:08:43 »
I do not want to debate whether water baptism is for salvation in this thread. The other thread seem to go over and over same arguments and get no where.

It went nowhere because you kept asking the same questions and proposing the same arguments, all the while expecting different answers from the same people.

You realize that is the definition of insanity, right?

Quote
I would like to take a look at these three.
 
1. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For * * by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
*Seems to say that the Spirit is doing the baptism

2.Matt. 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
*Man does the baptizing

3.Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
*Jesus does the baptism

The main point in 1 Corinthians 12:13, as I see it, is that we all share in the one Spirit's work in our being added to the body. He places us in the body of Christ (Acts 2:38-41). The emphasis is on the fact it is the one and the same Spirit and we are all partakers of Him and what He does. The emphasis is on our unity, our oneness, in Him.

In Matthew 28:19, I addressed that already. You are correct that this immersion is administered by people. Just keep in mind that Jesus commanded it for any and all who would come to Him (along with Mark 16:15-16).

In Matthew 3:11, as well as in the parallel texts in Mark and Luke, this has been addressed ad nauseum in the other threads. I would simply emphasis once again that, inasmuch as John promised this to any and all who came out to him to be baptized, I have to believe that Jesus administers this to any and all who come to Him in faith. I see a correlation between what John promised Jesus would do and what Jesus commanded in the Great Commission.


One piece of advice. Get rid of the KJV.

In 1 Corinthians 12:13, the KJV says, "...have been all made to drink into one Spirit." Into one Spirit? "Into" is not correct. It may be a minor point, but it just reads funny, funny wrong.

In Matthew 28:19, the KJV says, "...baptizing them in the name of..." In the name of? "In" is not correct. It should read "into the name of." It makes a huge difference.

Try the American Standard Version instead. ::smile::

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #5 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 07:08:43 »

Offline grace

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #6 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 07:14:50 »
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
What are they bearing witness of?   
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

I see the pattern of these three throughout the Bible.
Father, Word(Jesus), Holy Spirit...One yet separate.
Blood (salvation), Water baptism, Spirit baptism...Separate?!?

Offline grace

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #7 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 07:25:02 »
It went nowhere because you kept asking the same questions and proposing the same arguments, all the while expecting different answers from the same people.

You realize that is the definition of insanity, right?

The answers did not line up with what I was seeing in His Word. And I offered several arguments against. Don't want to debate that. I came across this in my notes and wanted to review them again.

Quote
The main point in 1 Corinthians 12:13, as I see it, is that we all share in the one Spirit's work in our being added to the body. He places us in the body of Christ (Acts 2:38-41). The emphasis is on the fact it is the one and the same Spirit and we are all partakers of Him and what He does. The emphasis is on our unity, our oneness, in Him.
But are we to ignore that it is the Spirit that baptizes us into the Body vs. water baptism by man and HS baptism by Jesus?

Quote
In Matthew 28:19, I addressed that already. You are correct that this immersion is administered by people. Just keep in mind that Jesus commanded it for any and all who would come to Him (along with Mark 16:15-16).
Yes, I agree that water baptism is commanded and man administers it. I also see that believe and repent comes before water baptism. I think we agree on this.

Quote
In Matthew 3:11, as well as in the parallel texts in Mark and Luke, this has been addressed ad nauseum in the other threads. I would simply emphasis once again that, inasmuch as John promised this to any and all who came out to him to be baptized, I have to believe that Jesus administers this to any and all who come to Him in faith. I see a correlation between what John promised Jesus would do and what Jesus commanded in the Great Commission.
I see all three in the Great commission! Heaven agrees... Father, Word (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit.
On earth the agreement is...Blood -water-Spirit.


Quote
One piece of advice. Get rid of the KJV.

In 1 Corinthians 12:13, the KJV says, "...have been all made to drink into one Spirit." Into one Spirit? "Into" is not correct. It may be a minor point, but it just reads funny, funny wrong.
I do not see it wrong...Spirit within

Quote
In Matthew 28:19, the KJV says, "...baptizing them in the name of..." In the name of? "In" is not correct. It should read "into the name of." It makes a huge difference.

Try the American Standard Version instead. ::smile::
I like my KJV
« Last Edit: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 07:27:57 by grace »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #8 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 07:51:56 »
Quote
But are we to ignore that it is the Spirit that baptizes us into the Body vs. water baptism by man and HS baptism by Jesus?

Grace did you ever consider that while God has man to dip another in water it is not what the man is doing in that event but what God is spiritually doing? it is not Man transforming sinner into saint it is God man only does the physical aspect it Jesus how baptize with the spirit in the baptism in his name. I guess I am not doing a good job at this cause I have tried to point this out.

What is the baptism in Christ name for What happens through this baptism and how does the work man or God. The scriptures are very clear on this  answer these questions truthfully and maybe that will help clear up so confusion.

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #8 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 07:51:56 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #9 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 07:54:00 »
I did not say Jesus baptized himself. The HS came UPON HIM.So I guess it would depend on the context of the word when it was used.
But you said
Jesus had all three...
He was born from above
Water baptism
Spirit baptism (Dove upon)
So then if He had all three and it is Jesus who baptizes by/with/in the Holy Spirit, then He must have baptized Himself.

So yes, grace, you are confused.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #10 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 07:54:52 »
Quote
Yes, I agree that water baptism is commanded and man administers it.
Why??? Why did God command it?? there has to be purpose what is it?

God does not give empty commands so why did he command baptism in Christ name?? what is its purpose????

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #11 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 08:11:29 »
Grace what I see from your posting is that you are hung up on the baptism in Christ name being administered by man and not seeing how is doing the work in said baptism. You have to look past man and see what God does in said baptism. Several scriptures tell you it is God at work in said baptism. It is God that transforms sinful man into a saint. NO way can man do this it is a spiritual work of God that is taking place in said baptism thus the spirit baptism that Christ baptize with. Man only does the dunking and submitting the rest is the spiritual work of God .

The other problem you keep trying to lump the spirit upon as same. It is not that easy to See what the difference is when talking about the baptism of the Holy Ghost because it seem that the scriptures connect the with in and the with on together but with careful studying you can see the difference. It is my opinion thr the baptism of the Holy Ghost or spirit baptism is referring to the baptism in Christ name or the original out pouring from heaven on all men. I know we have been over this and you cant see it but I feel if you study it out a little longer you may come to see.

If you think I am in error PLEASE point it out and we will search it out in scripture together.

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #12 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 08:27:38 »
Quote
1. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For * * by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
*Seems to say that the Spirit is doing the baptism

Answered in post before this one

Quote
2.Matt. 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
*Man does the baptizing

Answered in post before this one

Quote
3.Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
*Jesus does the baptism

Answered in post before this one


Quote
Is there a difference in the baptism OF the Spirit and baptism WITH the Spirit?


Answered in post before this one


Offline soterion

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #13 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 09:28:52 »
But are we to ignore that it is the Spirit that baptizes us into the Body vs. water baptism by man and HS baptism by Jesus?

You say, "vs." but there is no vs.

We are immersed in the name of Jesus Christ (meaning by His authority, at His command, according to the Great Commission), we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (what Christ does when we are immersed), and the Spirit adds us to the body (as we are immersed). All of this is found in Acts 2:38-41. It is all at once in our submission to Christ's command to repent of sin and receive immersion.

Quote
Yes, I agree that water baptism is commanded and man administers it. I also see that believe and repent comes before water baptism. I think we agree on this.

Okay. The point?

Quote
I see all three in the Great commission! Heaven agrees... Father, Word (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit.
On earth the agreement is...Blood -water-Spirit.

Again, you are conflating different scriptures from different contexts that have nothing to do with each other. What John is saying in 1 John 5:7-8 has nothing to do with the Great Commission nor do they have anything to do with baptism.

You asked earlier, "What are they bearing witness of?" They are bearing witness of who Jesus is. Read on down past verse 8. This fits in the point of the whole letter where John is encouraging the readers to avoid the teaching of the Gnostics and hold onto Jesus as the Son of God and as the One who came in the flesh and gave His life so that we may have eternal life.

Offline soterion

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #14 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 09:40:28 »
I am not confused about the Spirit upon. The Bible is clear that the HS came UPON Jesus. He will come UPON in Acts 1:8. He came UPON in many others in Acts. I know Jesus is the Baptizer with the HS

Yet again, conflating different events as if they are the same.

The Spirit falling on Jesus has zip to do with the Spirit falling on/upon the disciples in Acts 2:1-4 and upon Cornelius in Acts 10:44-46. You are looking at the action of the Spirit (falling on somebody) and claiming it is all the same thing for the same reason.

You need to be looking at the result of the falling of the Spirit to see the purpose. The Spirit falling on Jesus was for a completely different reason than why He fell upon persons in Acts 2 and 10. In the case of Jesus, it was to commission and empower Him to start His ministry. In the case of the others, it was to signal to witnesses that something new was taking place.

You said, "He came UPON in many others in Acts." Besides the disciples in Acts 2 and Cornelius in 10, I see no other falling upon. Where do you see these "many others"?

Offline grace

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #15 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 12:57:55 »
Grace did you ever consider that while God has man to dip another in water it is not what the man is doing in that event but what God is spiritually doing? it is not Man transforming sinner into saint it is God man only does the physical aspect it Jesus how baptize with the spirit in the baptism in his name. I guess I am not doing a good job at this cause I have tried to point this out.

What is the baptism in Christ name for What happens through this baptism and how does the work man or God. The scriptures are very clear on this  answer these questions truthfully and maybe that will help clear up so confusion.
I really do not want to get into what was discussed in the other thread.
I would like to discuss in this thread The three that agree? What does that mean to you?

Offline grace

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #16 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 13:04:08 »
You say, "vs." but there is no vs.

We are immersed in the name of Jesus Christ (meaning by His authority, at His command, according to the Great Commission), we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (what Christ does when we are immersed), and the Spirit adds us to the body (as we are immersed). All of this is found in Acts 2:38-41. It is all at once in our submission to Christ's command to repent of sin and receive immersion.
Acts 2:38 does not say it happens all at once. He showed a sequence.

Quote
Okay. The point?
My point is coming from those scriptures where heaven and earth agree.

Quote
Again, you are conflating different scriptures from different contexts that have nothing to do with each other. What John is saying in 1 John 5:7-8 has nothing to do with the Great Commission nor do they have anything to do with baptism.

You asked earlier, "What are they bearing witness of?" They are bearing witness of who Jesus is. Read on down past verse 8. This fits in the point of the whole letter where John is encouraging the readers to avoid the teaching of the Gnostics and hold onto Jesus as the Son of God and as the One who came in the flesh and gave His life so that we may have eternal life.
My opening statement ties them together.
Do we need to break the whole chapter down....some very revealing scripture.-

Offline grace

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #17 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 13:20:09 »
Yet again, conflating different events as if they are the same.

The Spirit falling on Jesus has zip to do with the Spirit falling on/upon the disciples in Acts 2:1-4 and upon Cornelius in Acts 10:44-46. You are looking at the action of the Spirit (falling on somebody) and claiming it is all the same thing for the same reason.

Jesus was baptized in water, the Holy Spirit descended on Him. Was this done to seal Jesus with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of His salvation (as in Ephesians 1:13-14)? Obviously not, because Jesus was not in need of salvation. On earth, Jesus was our perfect role model because He was the perfect human, and He received the Holy Spirit in order to be empowered for His ministry on earth as the perfect human (This we agree on as for as why the HS came UPON him). This can be demonstrated by following the sequence of events in Luke's Gospel and in Acts:

"When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove." (Luke 3:21-22)

"You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached-- how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him." (Acts 10:37-38)

First we are told that Jesus was baptized in water and then He received the Holy Spirit (not as a guarantee of His salvation, but for spiritual empowerment).
We are also told that God anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit and power.
Next, Jesus began His ministry after receiving the Holy Spirit and power.
We are then told that He allowed Himself to be led by the Spirit rather than deciding on His own what He wished to do.
Finally, we see Jesus returning to Galilee in the power of the Holy Spirit after resisting the devil in the desert.

 So even though Jesus is the Son of God, the above passages tell us that He received the empowerment of the Holy Spirit for His earthly ministry. Notice that Jesus was already "saved"/born from above (because He was never "unsaved") when He received spiritual empowerment, just as we need to be saved before we can receive spiritual empowerment.

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You need to be looking at the result of the falling of the Spirit to see the purpose. The Spirit falling on Jesus was for a completely different reason than why He fell upon persons in Acts 2 and 10. In the case of Jesus, it was to commission and empower Him to start His ministry. In the case of the others, it was to signal to witnesses that something new was taking place.

You said, "He came UPON in many others in Acts." Besides the disciples in Acts 2 and Cornelius in 10, I see no other falling upon. Where do you see these "many others"?
In Acts 1:5 (a few days before Pentecost) Jesus told the disciples that they would be baptized with the Holy Spirit in just a few days:
"For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. ... you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you" (Acts 1:5,8)

This promise was fulfilled a few days later on the day of Pentecost:
 
"When the day of Pentecost came, they [the disciples] were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them." (Acts 2:1-4)
Notice the terms which are used above to describe the baptism of the Holy Spirit:
"when the Holy Spirit comes on you"
"All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit"
 
In Acts 10:44-45, the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out on Gentiles for the very first time:
 
"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers [Jews] who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ." (Acts 10:44-48)

This story is repeated in Acts 11:15-17:
"As I [Peter] began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?" (Acts 11:15-17)
When the Holy Spirit came on the Gentiles at the house of Cornelius, the apostle Peter referred to it as the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Peter said that it was the same event which had happened to the disciples in the beginning at Pentecost.

The terms which are used above to describe the baptism of the Holy Spirit:
 "the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message"
 "the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles"
 "They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have"
 "the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning"
"God gave them the same gift as he gave us"

I am not going to debate this on this thread...This is what I believe and I will not change this because I have searched it out and can show in scripture the difference in Spirit within and Spirit upon.

If you would like to discus 1 John 5:7-8....I will discuss it!


Offline soterion

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #18 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 15:12:40 »
Acts 2:38 does not say it happens all at once. He showed a sequence.

A person is immersed. During this, sins are forgiven, the Spirit comes to reside, and the Spirit adds him or her to the body. To me, it all takes place pretty much at once. If you want to count the mini-microseconds between each particular event, be my guest.

Quote
My opening statement ties them together.
Do we need to break the whole chapter down....some very revealing scripture.-

It makes sense to look at what John is saying in 1 John 5, and understand what he is saying in verses 7 and 8, before trying to tie it in with the Great Commission or with baptism. When we understand what John is saying, we should see it has nothing to do with the other topics.

Offline soterion

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #19 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 15:20:19 »
Jesus was baptized in water, the Holy Spirit descended on Him. Was this done to seal Jesus with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of His salvation (as in Ephesians 1:13-14)? Obviously not, because Jesus was not in need of salvation. On earth, Jesus was our perfect role model because He was the perfect human, and He received the Holy Spirit in order to be empowered for His ministry on earth as the perfect human (This we agree on as for as why the HS came UPON him). This can be demonstrated by following the sequence of events in Luke's Gospel and in Acts:

"When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove." (Luke 3:21-22)

"You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached-- how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him." (Acts 10:37-38)

First we are told that Jesus was baptized in water and then He received the Holy Spirit (not as a guarantee of His salvation, but for spiritual empowerment).
We are also told that God anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit and power.
Next, Jesus began His ministry after receiving the Holy Spirit and power.
We are then told that He allowed Himself to be led by the Spirit rather than deciding on His own what He wished to do.
Finally, we see Jesus returning to Galilee in the power of the Holy Spirit after resisting the devil in the desert.

 So even though Jesus is the Son of God, the above passages tell us that He received the empowerment of the Holy Spirit for His earthly ministry. Notice that Jesus was already "saved"/born from above (because He was never "unsaved") when He received spiritual empowerment, just as we need to be saved before we can receive spiritual empowerment.

All of which has absolutely nothing to do with the events recorded in Acts. Otherwise, I don't know what your point is here.

Quote
In Acts 1:5 (a few days before Pentecost) Jesus told the disciples that they would be baptized with the Holy Spirit in just a few days:
"For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. ... you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you" (Acts 1:5,8)

This promise was fulfilled a few days later on the day of Pentecost:
 
"When the day of Pentecost came, they [the disciples] were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them." (Acts 2:1-4)
Notice the terms which are used above to describe the baptism of the Holy Spirit:
"when the Holy Spirit comes on you"
"All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit"
 
In Acts 10:44-45, the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out on Gentiles for the very first time:
 
"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers [Jews] who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ." (Acts 10:44-48)

This story is repeated in Acts 11:15-17:
"As I [Peter] began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?" (Acts 11:15-17)
When the Holy Spirit came on the Gentiles at the house of Cornelius, the apostle Peter referred to it as the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Peter said that it was the same event which had happened to the disciples in the beginning at Pentecost.

The terms which are used above to describe the baptism of the Holy Spirit:
 "the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message"
 "the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles"
 "They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have"
 "the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning"
"God gave them the same gift as he gave us"

I am not going to debate this on this thread...This is what I believe and I will not change this because I have searched it out and can show in scripture the difference in Spirit within and Spirit upon.

If you would like to discus 1 John 5:7-8....I will discuss it!

Why post at such length if you do not want to debate it? Especially if, "This is what I believe and I will not change this because I have searched it out..."

Offline grace

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #20 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 16:32:05 »
All of which has absolutely nothing to do with the events recorded in Acts. Otherwise, I don't know what your point is here.

Why post at such length if you do not want to debate it? Especially if, "This is what I believe and I will not change this because I have searched it out..."
To set it straight with scriptures how I believe.
No sense debating about the connection with Acts Spirit UPON and the Spirit(like a dove) UPON Jesus. If you would like to start a thread on the Spirit UPON and the indwelling HS. or the difference....

Offline grace

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #21 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 16:37:39 »
1. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For * * by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
*Seems to say that the Spirit is doing the baptism

2.Matt. 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
*Man does the baptizing

3.Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
*Jesus does the baptism

I see each scripture having a different subject. Spirit, man, Jesus.
As I stated in my opening statement that a different one is doing the baptism and with a different element. So they have to be different ::shrug::

Offline Jaime

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #22 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 16:55:03 »
Grace in the baptism of Acts2:38 and Mat 28:19, God conveys the indwelling Holy spirit. The water doesn’t and man doesn’t. When we are baptized in Christ’s name (in water) a man does the dunking and God does the Holy spirit baptizing therein (indwelling our spirits with His) the gift of the Holy Spirit mentioned in Acts 2:38, and the washing of our sins with the blood of Christ, also Acts 2:38. This IS what we have been saying for days and days.

Just to clarify not to side track.
« Last Edit: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 17:41:36 by Jaime »

Offline grace

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #23 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 17:34:44 »
Grace in the MATH 28:19, God conveys the indwelling Holy spirit. The water doesn’t and man doesn’t. When we are baptized in Christ’s name (in water) a man does the dunking and God does the Holy spirit baptizing therein (indwelling our spirits with His) the gift of the Holy Spirit mentioned in Acts 2:38, and the washing our sins with the blood of Christ, also Acts 2:38. This IS what we have been saying for days and days.

Just to clarify not to side track.
Just read Matt. 28 and saw where verse 18 also mentions heaven and earth. "..All power I given unto me in heaven and in earth."

I am not saying that cant happen all at once. But most of Acts and even in Jesus it was three separate happenings.
He was already born from above (God said this is my son)...He was water baptized by John to fulfil all righteousness...then the HS came upon him.  Two happened at the baptism of John.

He mentions three in 1 John 5:7.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #24 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 19:03:32 »
Grace, I am talking about what Peter promised the 3000, which was the same as Mat 28:19. Jesus was a whole different thing. His baptism was to fulfill all righteousness. He was God’s son before his baptism.
« Last Edit: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 19:23:47 by Jaime »

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #25 on: Wed Sep 25, 2019 - 21:11:56 »
Grace Yes Jesus did not need to be baptized by John but why was He

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #26 on: Thu Sep 26, 2019 - 04:04:24 »
I do not want to debate whether water baptism is for salvation in this thread.
It's going happen, but let get going and answer your questions.
Quote from: grace on: Yesterday at 00:12:43
I would like to take a look at these three.
 
1. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For * * by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
*Seems to say that the Spirit is doing the baptism
I'll be brief as I can with still getting my point across, I trust before God.

The body here is obviously the local church, for it is all that is mentioned before and after. Those teaching a universal church here in THESE scriptures as the only church that counts are not considering the CONTEXT of this chapter. Paul is writing the local church at Corinth, and he is dealing with gifts in a local church. He will tell them plainly in a few verses that he is talking specifically about them (12:27).

Paul did not jump subjects to water baptism admission into the universal church as many thinks. The baptism here is not water baptism, for it is a baptism performed by the Holy Spirit. Not every baptism is a baptism involving water and burial in it (Matthew 3:11; 20:22).

Water baptism is an individual act of answering God with a good conscience (Ist Peter 3:21). Water baptism is performed by a human administrator, not by the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:38). Water baptism does not make church members except in Roman Catholicism, for the eunuch was not made a member anywhere by his baptism by Philip (Acts 8:39).

Joining one's presence to a local body of believers the outward organization, is by mutual assent in Christ, by those local believers as Paul sought to do so so in Jerusalem among the saints:
Quote from: Luke
Acts 9:26,27~"And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple. But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus."
Paul’s baptism had not made him a member in any sense of any body (Acts 9:18,26).

Since baptism is an immersion, the verse describes the Spirit immersing us into a church. We lay claim to this verse by asking for it to be done when we receive new believers into our mist, which is the opposite action taken when excluding a member from a body of believers.

The church has binding and loosing authority, which the Spirit applies (Matthew 18:18). The Holy Spirit immerses, buries, plunges, dips, and otherwise sticks new believers into the body until they are grafted onto it and participate in the same Spirit in the body.

The result is not salvation, membership, gifts, or anything else, but "participation" in the body. “To drink into one Spirit” is mutual participation in the lively energy of the Holy Spirit. This is a passive work done to believers, just like the baptism in the first part of the verse.

The Spirit takes spiritual children and makes them living stones in His temple (Ist Peter 2:5). Spiritual sustenance, vitality from Christ, and unifying charity are supplied by this union. The graces and fruits that make saints of a local church flow from unity in the Spirit. The verse before and the verse after define the unifying animation of the Spirit of God. The coordination of members in a church is not by elders but by a perfect Spirit. The closer a church gets to Christ and walks in the Spirit, the more benefits they realize. The unified relationship in the Spirit is something saints of that local body maintain (Ephesians 4:3). The verb “drink” is used to indicate the water vitality of the Spirit (John 4:10; 7:37-39).
Quote from: grace on: Yesterday at 00:12:43
I see three! Salvation, water, Spirit
Dear sister~1st Corithinian 12:13 is NOT salvation~it is for fellowship, supplying the NEEDS of a local body of believers! As I said above: "participation" in the body, whereby, none can say he's more important than the very least of that particular member for ALL are needed and ALL have their special God-given purpose/gift in that body.

I'll consider the second question next. RB
« Last Edit: Thu Sep 26, 2019 - 04:23:22 by RB »

Offline soterion

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #27 on: Thu Sep 26, 2019 - 06:52:29 »
It's going happen, but let get going and answer your questions. I'll be brief as I can with still getting my point across, I trust before God.

The body here is obviously the local church, for it is all that is mentioned before and after. Those teaching a universal church here in THESE scriptures as the only church that counts are not considering the CONTEXT of this chapter. Paul is writing the local church at Corinth, and he is dealing with gifts in a local church. He will tell them plainly in a few verses that he is talking specifically about them (12:27).

Paul did not jump subjects to water baptism admission into the universal church as many thinks. The baptism here is not water baptism, for it is a baptism performed by the Holy Spirit. Not every baptism is a baptism involving water and burial in it (Matthew 3:11; 20:22).

Water baptism is an individual act of answering God with a good conscience (Ist Peter 3:21). Water baptism is performed by a human administrator, not by the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:38). Water baptism does not make church members except in Roman Catholicism, for the eunuch was not made a member anywhere by his baptism by Philip (Acts 8:39).

Joining one's presence to a local body of believers the outward organization, is by mutual assent in Christ, by those local believers as Paul sought to do so so in Jerusalem among the saints: Paul’s baptism had not made him a member in any sense of any body (Acts 9:18,26).

Since baptism is an immersion, the verse describes the Spirit immersing us into a church. We lay claim to this verse by asking for it to be done when we receive new believers into our mist, which is the opposite action taken when excluding a member from a body of believers.

The church has binding and loosing authority, which the Spirit applies (Matthew 18:18). The Holy Spirit immerses, buries, plunges, dips, and otherwise sticks new believers into the body until they are grafted onto it and participate in the same Spirit in the body.

The result is not salvation, membership, gifts, or anything else, but "participation" in the body. “To drink into one Spirit” is mutual participation in the lively energy of the Holy Spirit. This is a passive work done to believers, just like the baptism in the first part of the verse.

The Spirit takes spiritual children and makes them living stones in His temple (Ist Peter 2:5). Spiritual sustenance, vitality from Christ, and unifying charity are supplied by this union. The graces and fruits that make saints of a local church flow from unity in the Spirit. The verse before and the verse after define the unifying animation of the Spirit of God. The coordination of members in a church is not by elders but by a perfect Spirit. The closer a church gets to Christ and walks in the Spirit, the more benefits they realize. The unified relationship in the Spirit is something saints of that local body maintain (Ephesians 4:3). The verb “drink” is used to indicate the water vitality of the Spirit (John 4:10; 7:37-39). Dear sister~1st Corithinian 12:13 is NOT salvation~it is for fellowship, supplying the NEEDS of a local body of believers! As I said above: "participation" in the body, whereby, none can say he's more important than the very least of that particular member for ALL are needed and ALL have their special God-given purpose/gift in that body.

I'll consider the second question next. RB

When a person is immersed into Christ, he or she is in Him, in His body. The church is spoken of in a universal sense, such as all throughout Ephesians, including in 4:4-16, where Paul describes various ministers that serve for the building up of the body unto its unity and maturity. Some of those ministers serve local groups of believers, such as pastors, but they are on this list as benefiting the church universal.

Just as Paul, in Ephesians 5:30, tells the Ephesians that "we" are members of His body, referring to the church universal, so he says the same to the Corinthians in 12:13 when he says "we" were all immersed into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free. That verse is referring to the universal church. In 12:28 we see some of the same ministers listed as in Ephesians 4. We have every reason to understand Paul's reference to the body in 1 Corinthians 12 to refer to the body as a whole, the church universal.

Which takes me to the claim that water immersion is not in view here, in 1 Corinthians 12:13. In Acts 2:38-40, the people were told what they must do. In verse 41, those who received Peter's message were baptized and there were added to the believers about 3,000. I read a direct correlation between receiving baptism and being added to the body. The point being that while water may be the medium a person is physically immersed in, in 1 Corinthians 12:13 the Spirit is the instrument that brought about the person being added to the body, his or her being immersed into the body.

The claim that the eunuch or Paul were not in the body after they were baptized is nonsense. Any and all who are in Christ and have the Spirit of God in them are in the body of Christ. This should be a given.

Offline grace

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #28 on: Thu Sep 26, 2019 - 09:25:39 »
Grace, I am talking about what Peter promised the 3000, which was the same as Mat 28:19. Jesus was a whole different thing. His baptism was to fulfill all righteousness. He was God’s son before his baptism.
We can not ignore all other examples in scriptures. We have to take the whole...
Jesus set the example right? What was it that he had to fulfill, what righteousness? Because I see all three being fulfilled ::shrug:: Born (our case born again) did not happen in the water. Water baptism, HS baptism from God UPON.

Three agree!
Father Son and HS represented.
Born of the HS (Born again/salvation for us), water baptism, HS baptism.


Even in the 3000 he did not say it happened all at once.
They were convicted from the gospel preached by Peter. Peter said Repent and them be baptized and then you will receive the gift (promise spoken of in 1:4,5,8, All speaking of the same promise of the HS upon for power).  I see three that agree Repent (salvation), [you cant deny the scriptures say it is by his blood that we have remission of sin] baptized (water) gift/promise (HS baptism). How can that not be seen...It is all through scriptures as I continue my study, the HS is just revealing it to me.
Three agree!

Offline grace

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #29 on: Thu Sep 26, 2019 - 09:27:49 »
Grace Yes Jesus did not need to be baptized by John but why was He
To fulfill all righteousness. He was living under the law, He fulfilled all! So what was he fulfilling?

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #30 on: Thu Sep 26, 2019 - 09:49:05 »
To fulfill all righteousness. He was living under the law, He fulfilled all! So what was he fulfilling?
I asked you first Yes what was he fulfilling???
It was All Righteousness so how did the baptism of John fit in that answer???

Offline grace

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #31 on: Thu Sep 26, 2019 - 09:53:03 »
It's going happen, but let get going and answer your questions. I'll be brief as I can with still getting my point across, I trust before God.

The body here is obviously the local church, for it is all that is mentioned before and after. Those teaching a universal church here in THESE scriptures as the only church that counts are not considering the CONTEXT of this chapter. Paul is writing the local church at Corinth, and he is dealing with gifts in a local church. He will tell them plainly in a few verses that he is talking specifically about them (12:27).

Paul did not jump subjects to water baptism admission into the universal church as many thinks. The baptism here is not water baptism, for it is a baptism performed by the Holy Spirit. Not every baptism is a baptism involving water and burial in it (Matthew 3:11; 20:22).

Water baptism is an individual act of answering God with a good conscience (Ist Peter 3:21). Water baptism is performed by a human administrator, not by the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:38). Water baptism does not make church members except in Roman Catholicism, for the eunuch was not made a member anywhere by his baptism by Philip (Acts 8:39).

Joining one's presence to a local body of believers the outward organization, is by mutual assent in Christ, by those local believers as Paul sought to do so so in Jerusalem among the saints: Paul’s baptism had not made him a member in any sense of any body (Acts 9:18,26).

Since baptism is an immersion, the verse describes the Spirit immersing us into a church. We lay claim to this verse by asking for it to be done when we receive new believers into our mist, which is the opposite action taken when excluding a member from a body of believers.

The church has binding and loosing authority, which the Spirit applies (Matthew 18:18). The Holy Spirit immerses, buries, plunges, dips, and otherwise sticks new believers into the body until they are grafted onto it and participate in the same Spirit in the body.

The result is not salvation, membership, gifts, or anything else, but "participation" in the body. “To drink into one Spirit” is mutual participation in the lively energy of the Holy Spirit. This is a passive work done to believers, just like the baptism in the first part of the verse.

The Spirit takes spiritual children and makes them living stones in His temple (Ist Peter 2:5). Spiritual sustenance, vitality from Christ, and unifying charity are supplied by this union. The graces and fruits that make saints of a local church flow from unity in the Spirit. The verse before and the verse after define the unifying animation of the Spirit of God. The coordination of members in a church is not by elders but by a perfect Spirit. The closer a church gets to Christ and walks in the Spirit, the more benefits they realize. The unified relationship in the Spirit is something saints of that local body maintain (Ephesians 4:3). The verb “drink” is used to indicate the water vitality of the Spirit (John 4:10; 7:37-39). Dear sister~1st Corithinian 12:13 is NOT salvation~it is for fellowship, supplying the NEEDS of a local body of believers! As I said above: "participation" in the body, whereby, none can say he's more important than the very least of that particular member for ALL are needed and ALL have their special God-given purpose/gift in that body.

I'll consider the second question next. RB
I too(like soterion mentioned) thought the body of Christ was all born again. Did God want us to be divided or all one in Spirit(agreement)? All the churches (local) mentioned in the Bible were in agreement with each other (unlike today). Was Paul a member of a local body?

That aside...
Their are still three different subjects.
The Holy Spirit baptizing
Man baptizing (water)
Jesus doing the baptizing.

I do not see HS indwelling in water or when Jesus baptizes for power. Just as Jesus was already born from HS before water or HS (dove) UPON for power.

Acts 9:26,27 was interesting in the fact that Barnabas did not mention water baptism to prove he was a disciple....but only that he met Jesus on the road to Damascus ::shrug:: Couldn't help it! Now back on subject...

Would like you to explain the three in heaven and earth that agree...

Offline grace

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #32 on: Thu Sep 26, 2019 - 10:04:17 »
I asked you first Yes what was he fulfilling???
It was All Righteousness so how did the baptism of John fit in that answer???
When I first come back to the study of baptism I thought his fulfilling was that of transition FROM water to Spirit. I put it aside to go to this 3 in agreement to find answers.
So I can not give an answer at this time.
But would love to discuss the three in agreement ::blushing::

Offline grace

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #33 on: Thu Sep 26, 2019 - 10:10:43 »
Interesting in studying the number three...it represents UNITY of three items.
Sun, Moon and stars...Unity of the Cosmos
Clouds, stars and heaven ...of the heavens
Crust, mantle, and Cor...the earth
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob...Israel
Faith, Hope, and love...Spirit
Body, soul, and spirit...man
Man, woman, and child...Family
Outer, Inner, and Holies...Temple
Israel, Jerusalem, and the Temple...Israel
Foundation, walls, and roof...building
Father, Son, and Spirit...Godhead

Just wanted to throw this in here...it was interesting to me. Probably some I missed. I love to study numbers in scriptures. God is in the details of EVERY WORD.

Offline grace

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Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #34 on: Thu Sep 26, 2019 - 12:49:55 »
In studying the pattern of how the OT high priest transferred the priesthood to his oldest son, I see...
(Exod. 40:12)
(4:11-15)
The son first bathes in water.
Then he is clothed in his holy garments and the oil of anointing is poured over his head.
High priest must publicly declare this is his son.

All THREE of these aspects of transfer occurred at the Jordan River.
Christ was submerged in the water of baptism.
The Holy Spirit came upon him in the form of a dove.
The Heavenly Father announced this was His son.
This is the Aaronic priesthood transfer that is fulfilled in Jesus baptism who was to become a priest after the order of Melchizedek (Heb. 7:11-17).

I posted this here because of the THREE MENTIONED.
So, Yogi...does this answer line up with what you think?

 

     
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