Author Topic: Heaven and earth agree...  (Read 1499 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7509
  • Manna: 369
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #35 on: Thu Sep 26, 2019 - 13:40:25 »
When a person is immersed into Christ, he or she is in Him, in His body.
This is wrong, SO WRONG. Water baptism does not put us INTO the body of Christ in any way whatsoever. We were chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world~that put us in him eternally. We were baptized INTO his religion/faith (Romans 6:1-4) and that put us in him in one true biblical sense.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 16:7~Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
Meaning that they were baptized into Jesus Christ's faith!  We ALL were in the UNIVERSAL CHURCH~his body before the world began and there grace was given to us, and from there God ordained us to eternal life. 2nd Timothy 1:9; Acts 13:48; Ephesians 1; etc.
Quote from: soterion Reply #27 on: Today at 06:52:29
The church is spoken of in a universal sense, such as all throughout Ephesians, including in 4:4-16, where Paul describes various ministers that serve for the building up of the body unto its unity and maturity. Some of those ministers serve local groups of believers, such as pastors, but they are on this list as benefiting the church universal.
It is spoken of in "BOTH" senses. Not just in local, nor in universal. Time will not allow me to prove this, but it is clearly seen. MOST 1st Corinthians 12 can ONLY be understood in this sense (local, or KNOWN believers that WE KNOW personally~We CAN NOT...."have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it"...IF we do not know them, or fellowship with them in some form or fashion...now can we?)
Quote
"For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular."
Too much in these scriptures to limit this to the universal body of Christ.
Quote from: Paul
"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.  Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way."
These scriptures should be understood more in the church body OVERALL considered throughout this world.
Quote from: soterion Reply #27 on: Today at 06:52:29
The claim that the eunuch or Paul were not in the body after they were baptized is nonsense.
They were IN CHRIST legally and vitally BEFORE they were baptized IN WATER! Water baptism puts them INTO his religion with a commitment to live according to the word of God! I only contend that water baptism DOES NOT put us into a local body of believers, OR, the universal body of Christ, unseen to the naked eye, KNOWN ONLY by God~ as many teach.
Quote from: soterion Reply #27 on: Today at 06:52:29
Any and all who are in Christ and have the Spirit of God in them are in the body of Christ.
Any and ALL who have been BORN OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD have the indwelling Spirit, and THAT KNOWLEDGE is given to them BY WATER BAPTISM and a commitment to follow Christ.
« Last Edit: Thu Sep 26, 2019 - 16:12:48 by RB »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #35 on: Thu Sep 26, 2019 - 13:40:25 »

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10473
  • Manna: 299
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #36 on: Thu Sep 26, 2019 - 16:39:59 »
This is wrong, SO WRONG. Water baptism does not put us INTO the body of Christ in any way whatsoever. We were chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world~that put us in him eternally. We were baptized INTO his religion/faith (Romans 6:1-4) and that put us in him in one true biblical sense.]quote]Sorry RB.  But soterion is exactly right.  It is your theology that is wrong, SO WRONG.  In fact Romans 6:1-8 is the description of one being born again.  And just as soterion said, "When a person is immersed into Christ, he or she is in Him, in His body."

[quote suthor=RB]Meaning that they were baptized into Jesus Christ's faith!
Nowhere in the NT does it ever say anything about being baptized into Jesus' faith.

Quote from: RB
We ALL were in the UNIVERSAL CHURCH~his body before the world began and there grace was given to us, and from there God ordained us to eternal life. 2nd Timothy 1:9; Acts 13:48; Ephesians 1; etc. It is spoken of in "BOTH" senses. Not just in local, nor in universal. Time will not allow me to prove this, but it is clearly seen. MOST 1st Corinthians 12 can ONLY be understood in this sense (local, or KNOWN believers)  Too much in these scriptures to limit this to the universal body of Christ. These scriptures should be understood more in the church body OVERALL considered throughout this world. They were IN CHRIST legally and vitally BEFORE they were baptized IN WATER! Water baptism puts them INTO his religion with a commitment to live according to the word of God! I only contend that water baptism DOES NOT put us into a local body of believers as many teach. Any and ALL who have been BORN OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD have the indwelling Spirit, and THAT KNOWLEDGE is given to them BY WATER BAPTISM and a commitment to follow Christ.
I am not sure what you were really trying to say there, but knowledge is not given or imparted to anyone in water baptism.  In water baptism, sins are forgiven and the gift,  the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit is given. That is what it means to be born again.  If you really understood that, then so much of what you wrongly believe would be corrected.

It doesn't put us into "His religion".  It puts us into Him.

".... in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. " (Gal 3:26-27)

"...having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.  And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses" (Col 2:11-12)


And there is only one body of Christ.  It is composed of all who have been saved.

Offline yogi bear

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12299
  • Manna: 744
  • Gender: Male
Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #37 on: Thu Sep 26, 2019 - 18:37:29 »
I really can't see why Red has so much trouble reading the text and how he read so much in to it that no other bible version has. Such as into his religion I have not seen that phrase in any version of all the bible's I have read. If that is not a red flag on the play I don't know what one is.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #37 on: Thu Sep 26, 2019 - 18:37:29 »

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7509
  • Manna: 369
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #38 on: Fri Sep 27, 2019 - 04:26:45 »
Sorry RB.  But soterion is exactly right.  It is your theology that is wrong, SO WRONG.  In fact Romans 6:1-8 is the description of one being born again.  And just as soterion said, "When a person is immersed into Christ, he or she is in Him, in His body."
You are making me do extra work by you posting incorrectly, so, please get your nap in before posting!  ::smile::

Of course, you and yogi, Jaime, soterion, (and maybe Alan~ it's harder to tell exactly what he believes on this subject) believe that I got it all wrong, reason being, that my understanding is directly in conflict with your teaching on this all-important teaching of the word of God.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #36 on: Yesterday at 16:39:59
In fact Romans 6:1-8 is the description of one being born again.
Not even close. Romans 5:12-20 reveals how one that is a sinner is made righteous before God~and my dear friend water baptism IS NOT MENTION! Well, even before Romans 5:12-20 we read these words of Paul:
Quote from: Paul's gospel
Romans 3:21,22~"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by the faith OF Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"
4WD, and all others reading this, the word of God gives CLEAR WITNESS that God's righteousness which he has PROVIDED for his children comes to the elect THROUGH the OBEDIENCE, FAITH, AND RIGHTEOUSNESS of his holy Son, Jesus Christ, NOT through any act that man has an active part in~that is called by the word of God doing the WORKS of the LAW~which a LAW can be called such which has any COMMANDMENT given that one MUST do before receiving the benifits of such law.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #36 on: Yesterday at 16:39:59
Nowhere in the NT does it ever say anything about being baptized into Jesus' faith.
4WD, and all others~We conclude this doctrine by many infallible proofs. When one believes the report given concerning Jesus Christ and him crucified for the remission of our sins and such a one believes that report with all his heart and desires to follow Christ and HIS TEACHINGS, (religion) then such person MUST arise and be baptized INTO THAT FAITH which they now are professing to believe in.  Also, there are many, yes, MANY scriptures teaching us that faith is the evidence of one BORN OF GOD, which MUST proceed any work done by us. Jesus our Lord overly stress this very doctrine more than once in his short time of preaching the word of God~becuase it is SO IMPORTANT to understand.  John's gospel and his epistles is the very best place to go and find such teachings. John 5:24 is very plain and even more so is John 3~ where Jesus and Nicodemus' discourse is preserved for this VERY PURPOSE, which time will not allow us to consider at the moment. But WOULD if grace so desires us to do.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #36 on: Yesterday at 16:39:59
I am not sure what you were really trying to say there, but knowledge is not given or imparted to anyone in water baptism
4WD, it most certainly is! Why do not you see this blessed truth? I know why, and it is because you will not even consider this truth since this truth goes against your doctrine and exposes it to not be of sound doctrine and according to the truth. Mark 16:16 is clear to me and should be to you as well, and would be, if you would not harden your spirit against it.
Quote from: Jesus Christ
Mark 16:15,16~"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not shall be damned."
The salvation in these words of our Lord Jesus is a practical salvation of TRUE KNOWLEDGE of the gospel of Jesus Christ~of which knowledge MANY OT saints and others in the NT era that may have been regenerated, but NOT converted by the gospel, such as heathens, feebleminded folks and those men and women who  were never fully converted to the truth even though born of God yet had NOT able ministers guiding them into the truth properly!

The ones that shall be damned are those that BELIEVE NOT, not those who were never baptized INTO JESUS CHRIST'S faith/religion! But, those that people that have been baptized in all sincerity and properly have a much fuller knowledge of the truth, than those that have not been baptized into Jesus Christ.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #36 on: Yesterday at 16:39:59
In water baptism, sins are forgiven and the gift,  the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit is given. That is what it means to be born again.
Sir, one MUST have the Spirit of God IN THEM before they are able to obey even the simplest of God's commandments, IMPOSSIBLE to do so living in the flesh. UNTIL you folks see this blessed truth, then you will keep on believing in your ability to please God WITHOUT his Spirit being IN you FIRST! Listen to Paul and learn:
Quote from: Paul gospel
Romans 8:5-9~"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
You are NOT disagreeing with me, but with the word of God~If beleive you otherwise, then YOU explain these words of Paul and MAKE THEM support YOUR doctrine. I'll wait and see, but I will NOT hold my breath while waiting.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #36 on: Yesterday at 16:39:59
And there is only one body of Christ.  It is composed of all who have been saved.
Agreed~saved by JESUS CHRIST ALONE and on HIS BEHALF, based on what HE did for his people.
Quote from:  yogi bear on: Yesterday at 18:37:29
I really can't see why Red has so much trouble reading the text and how he read so much in to it that no other bible version has. Such as into his religion I have not seen that phrase in any version of all the bible's I have read. If that is not a red flag on the play I don't know what one is.
  Yogi, my man, I have no problem reading the scriptures, the problem of understanding all of it, yes, but in all sincerity and before God, I follow his word as carefully as I can~ NOT in support of any particular sect, since we meet in our homes~we live by these words so help us, God:
Quote from: Paul
2nd Corinthians 2:17~"For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ."

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #38 on: Fri Sep 27, 2019 - 04:26:45 »

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10473
  • Manna: 299
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #39 on: Fri Sep 27, 2019 - 07:55:16 »
Romans 5:12-20 reveals how one that is a sinner is made righteous before God~and my dear friend water baptism IS NOT MENTION!
You and so many others have Romans 5:12-20 so completely wrong.  Those verses do not speak about sinners.  They speak about a comparison of the effects of Jesus' obedience and Adam's disobedience.  In the absence of Jesus obedience all mankind would suffer the effects of Adam's disobedience, whatever those effects might have been.  However in Jesus' obedience all such effects due to Adam's disobedience are made null and void. 

Just about everything in your soteriology is wrong because you fail to really understand what Romans 5:12-20 really says.  That you truly believe that what Adam's disobedience accomplished far outweighed anything that Jesus' obedience could possibly do is simply mind boggling. That you do believe that is demonstrated by what you posted there.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #39 on: Fri Sep 27, 2019 - 07:55:16 »



Offline grace

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4773
  • Manna: 144
  • Gender: Female
Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #40 on: Fri Sep 27, 2019 - 09:26:57 »
Two pages and no one has addressed the agreement in heaven and earth. ::shrug::
I John is the subject...Heaven and earth agree!

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #40 on: Fri Sep 27, 2019 - 09:26:57 »

Das Deutsch

  • Guest
Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #41 on: Fri Sep 27, 2019 - 11:24:39 »
I'm uncertain what to think about the quote above that appears to take the causal phrase in the Greek, translated into German as "durch den glauben an Jesus Christus" as possessive.  Are the German translations wrong to give us the understanding there that it is not Christ's faith that is in view but rather faith in Christ as He is the object of our faith?  Perhaps I will investigate this further.  Has this been dealt with elsewhere here?
Das Deutsch

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7509
  • Manna: 369
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #42 on: Sat Sep 28, 2019 - 04:02:05 »
I'm uncertain what to think about the quote above that appears to take the causal phrase in the Greek, translated into German as "durch den glauben an Jesus Christus" as possessive.  Are the German translations wrong to give us the understanding there that it is not Christ's faith that is in view but rather faith in Christ as He is the object of our faith?  Perhaps I will investigate this further.  Has this been dealt with elsewhere here?  Das Deutsch
Greetings Das Deutsch~It has been dealt with here.....can you read Martin Luther's translation of the scriptures? He should have the faith OF Christ, which would be correct. Modern versions corrupt the scriptures especially so with this all-important truth. RB

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7509
  • Manna: 369
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #43 on: Sat Sep 28, 2019 - 05:21:21 »
Two pages and no one has addressed the agreement in heaven and earth. ::shrug:: I John is the subject...Heaven and earth agree!
Quote from: John the beloved apostle of our Lord Jesus Christ
1st John 5:5-8~"Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son."
The record of Jesus Christ is neither obscure nor limited to just one witness: there are many diverse witnesses even within this short chapter, but we only want to focus on the three on earth and the three in heaven that bear TRUE witness of JESUS CHRIST, and see if our faith agree with these witnesses. If not, then we have a problem with our understanding of Jesus Christ.
Quote
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
IN HEAVEN: "The Father is a Witness"~ The verse being introduced by the coordinating conjunction for includes the Trinity with the Spirit. The Holy Spirit the Spirit of Jehovah God, and all members of the Godhead are in full agreement. But beyond even full agreement, they are also one in nature, for there is only one God Jehovah. We are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and this Trinitarian formula of record (Matthew 28:18-20).

"The Word is a Witness" ~It was the Word which was God that was made flesh in the person of Jesus of Nazareth who was the Son of God, and John beheld His great glory the glory as the only begotten Son of God. (John 1:14,18).

"The Spirit is a Witness"~The Holy Spirit was given to Christ without measure and testified of Him in many ways (John 3:34). The incontrovertibly great mystery of godliness has Jesus being justified in the Spirit (Ist Timothy 3:16). These three are one in nature and testimony, giving the "ultimate" of THREE witnesses (Matthew 18:16).
Quote from: John
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one
ON THE EARTH: "The Holy Spirit is bearing witness"~We would know nothing of Jesus’ identity as God’s Son beginning with his birth, and then his life, and death without scripture~who moved holy men of old to write the scriptures for us. We would know nothing of Jesus’ identity as God’s Son without the Spirit bringing these truths to us in power to our understanding. So, the scripture of truth was inspired by the Holy Ghost, without which we would not know the record. We are also told about an internal witness of the Holy Spirit, even by Paul (Romans 8:14-16; Galatians 4:4-6; Hebrews 8:11 cp with John 6:44,45; etc.). John had already stated at least twice this presence of the Spirit to bear witness of Jesus (1st John 3:24; 4:13). The Spirit is the Spirit of truth, and He did bare witness of Jesus Christ in many ways (Ist Timothy 3:16).

"and the water"~I understand this to be speaking of his  birth...Jesus was made and born of a woman, a virgin woman, a miracle of God's power.
Quote from: Isaiah
Isaiah 7:14~"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."
Again:
Quote from: Luke
Luke 1:26-35~"And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. This is why I'm convinced that water is speaking of his BIRTH, and not his baptism in water as some believe and teach.
Quote
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one
"The blood"~ speak of NOT being of Adam's posterity, but being the Son of God, and the blood he had is considered the BLOOD OF GOD, by Jesus being the Son of God, thereby we read:
Quote from: Paul
Acts 20:28~“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Jesus Christ's being the Son of God by God conceiving him in the womb of a virgin by his great power, makes his blood the blood of God, which NO OTHER man born of a woman can be said of.

These faithful witnesses in Heaven and earth prove that Jesus Christ is the TRUE GOD and eternal life! Selah. 

« Last Edit: Sat Sep 28, 2019 - 06:48:33 by RB »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #43 on: Sat Sep 28, 2019 - 05:21:21 »

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7509
  • Manna: 369
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #44 on: Sat Sep 28, 2019 - 06:49:06 »
I will add this to our last post: Our Faith is a Witness (5:1a) Faith to believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, is evidence a man has already been born of God. He that believeth [present tense; active voice] is born of God [perfect tense; passive voice]. The perfect tense is an action completed [perfected] in the past and still true in the present.

We prove this priority of action by comparing John’s previous points (Ist John 4:7 cp Ist John 3:14). Consider John’s verb tenses proving the priority of regeneration to faith elsewhere (Ist John 4:15). Unless a man is born again, he cannot see God’s kingdom, let alone believe on its King (John 3:3). Being born again is God’s work, apart from human efforts, to prepare us to believe (John 1:12). God’s work of grace in causing the new birth is like the sovereignty of the wind (John 3:8).

He that is of God~ already born of God...is able to hear and understand (John 8:43-45,47)  The sheep of Christ are able to believe~ they do not believe to become sheep (John 10:26). Only those already saved and called are able and willing to believe on Jesus (Ist Corinthians 1:18,24). The gospel is hid from others, for they are lost and blinded by the devil’s power (2nd Corinthians 4:3-4). The presence of faith is evidence of eternal life and God’s gift (2nd Cor 2:14-17; 2nd Thessalonians 3:1-2). Jesus is the Christ = Jesus of Nazareth, Son of Mary, is God’s anointed and chosen Messiah and Son.

The record given in the Scriptures~ is what we know and believe by faith in God (Matthew 1:16-25). The Messiah, or Christ, was always known to be the Son of David and Son of God (Matt 16:16). Therefore, if you believe that Jesus of Nazareth is God’s anointed Son, you have the witness of faith. Most do not have this witness, and there is little value in trying to tell them of it (2nd Thessalonians 3:1-2). Repentance that acknowledges the truth~or the creation of faith.... is God’s gift (2nd Timothy 2:24-26).
« Last Edit: Sat Sep 28, 2019 - 06:51:24 by RB »

Offline grace

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4773
  • Manna: 144
  • Gender: Female
Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #45 on: Sat Sep 28, 2019 - 06:55:28 »
The record of Jesus Christ is neither obscure nor limited to just one witness: there are many diverse witnesses even within this short chapter, but we only want to focus on the three on earth and the three in heaven that bear TRUE witness of JESUS CHRIST, and see if our faith agree with these witnesses. If not, then we have a problem with our understanding of Jesus Christ.IN HEAVEN: "The Father is a Witness"~ The verse being introduced by the coordinating conjunction for includes the Trinity with the Spirit. The Holy Spirit the Spirit of Jehovah God, and all members of the Godhead are in full agreement. But beyond even full agreement, they are also one in nature, for there is only one God Jehovah. We are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and this Trinitarian formula of record (Matthew 28:18-20).

"The Word is a Witness" ~It was the Word which was God that was made flesh in the person of Jesus of Nazareth who was the Son of God, and John beheld His great glory the glory as the only begotten Son of God. (John 1:14,18).

"The Spirit is a Witness"~The Holy Spirit was given to Christ without measure and testified of Him in many ways (John 3:34). The incontrovertibly great mystery of godliness has Jesus being justified in the Spirit (Ist Timothy 3:16). These three are one in nature and testimony, giving the "ultimate" of THREE witnesses (Matthew 18:16).ON THE EARTH: "The Holy Spirit is bearing witness"~We would know nothing of Jesus’ identity as God’s Son beginning with his birth, and then his life, and death without scripture~who moved holy men of old to write the scriptures for us. We would know nothing of Jesus’ identity as God’s Son without the Spirit bringing these truths to us in power to our understanding. So, the scripture of truth was inspired by the Holy Ghost, without which we would not know the record. We are also told about an internal witness of the Holy Spirit, even by Paul (Romans 8:14-16; Galatians 4:4-6; Hebrews 8:11 cp with John 6:44,45; etc.). John had already stated at least twice this presence of the Spirit to bear witness of Jesus (1st John 3:24; 4:13). The Spirit is the Spirit of truth, and He did bare witness of Jesus Christ in many ways (Ist Timothy 3:16).

"and the water"~I understand this to be speaking of his  birth...Jesus was made and born of a woman, a virgin woman, a miracle of God's power.Again: This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. This is why I'm convinced that water is speaking of his BIRTH, and not his baptism in water as some believe and teach.  "The blood"~ speak of NOT being of Adam's posterity, but being the Son of God, and the blood he had is considered the BLOOD OF GOD, by Jesus being the Son of God, thereby we read: Jesus Christ's being the Son of God by God conceiving him in the womb of a virgin by his great power, makes his blood the blood of God, which NO OTHER man born of a woman can be said of.

These faithful witnesses in Heaven and earth prove that Jesus Christ is the TRUE GOD and eternal life! Selah.
Thank You! Now to continue my study on this...
I will study out the water..

Offline NorrinRadd

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2127
  • Manna: 119
  • Gender: Male
  • Everybody is somebody's heretic
Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #46 on: Sat Sep 28, 2019 - 07:13:21 »
Two pages and no one has addressed the agreement in heaven and earth. ::shrug::
I John is the subject...Heaven and earth agree!

It was briefly and indirectly addressed by the person who suggested you ditch the KJV.  Very few other translations include the "in heaven" and the "and there are three who testify on earth, the Spirit, the water, and the blood."  There is no evidence those portions -- the "Johannine Comma" -- were part of the original letter.  There is no evidence they were anywhere in the letter before the 14th Century, when something sort of like the Johannine Comma (but not identical) appeared as a margin gloss, not as part of the text itself.

So basically, the whole point of this thread rests on a faulty translation, i.e. it rests on nothing.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10473
  • Manna: 299
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #47 on: Sat Sep 28, 2019 - 10:09:28 »
I will add this to our last post: Our Faith is a Witness (5:1a) Faith to believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, is evidence a man has already been born of God. He that believeth [present tense; active voice] is born of God [perfect tense; passive voice]. The perfect tense is an action completed [perfected] in the past and still true in the present.
In the phrase, "is born of God", the verb is "is".  It is present tense.  The word "born" is used as an adjective.  It really says nothing at all about evidence of faith.  It is simply stating an existing condition. And that condition derives from believing in God.  You keep getting the order reversed.  The condition of being born again, born of God, is granted to "Whomsoever believes that Jesus is the Christ".  It is not evidence; it is a result.

It does not say, as you would have it say, that whosoever is born of God believes Jesus is the Christ;  it says whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God.  Believes is the action or the prerequisite; born of God is the result.

« Last Edit: Sat Sep 28, 2019 - 10:32:24 by 4WD »

Das Deutsch

  • Guest
Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #48 on: Sat Sep 28, 2019 - 11:23:55 »
 Greetings, and yes, I actually have Luther’s translation in front of me.  I’m sorry, but I do not see “of” in his translation, nor in any of the German versions I have.  I have also checked the Vulgate, Italian, French, and a few others besides German.  Interestingly, the German agrees with the French which says, “God declares men righteous by their faith in Jesus Christ.”  Luther translated it - “ich sage aber von solcher gerechtigkeit vor Gott, die da kommt durch den glauben an Jesum Christum...” which says righteousness before God comes from through faith in Jesus Christ.  This agrees with the German translation I cited before, “durch den glauben an Jesus Christus,” except for his spelling of Jesus Christ.  I’m sorry, but I do not see the phrase “Christ’s faith” or “faith of Christ” anywhere, not even in the Greek texts. I do see the genitive of object in the Greek, and that most translations I use properly translate.  I’m not sure what basis you have for deeming modern translations corrupt in this regard.  Perhaps you would be so kind as to point me to where this was discussed.  In the mean time, I will search the discussions as opportunity allows to see what I might stumble upon. 

 
Das Deutsch

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10473
  • Manna: 299
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #49 on: Sat Sep 28, 2019 - 11:57:27 »
Das Deutsch,

The phrase "faith of Christ", i.e, Christ's faith, is and only is from a distortion by the KJV and perhaps some earlier versions.  The discrepancy is perpetrated by the erroneous thesis that faith does not lead to salvation, but rather that salvation leads to faith.  There are, of course, variants to the concept of salvation then faith, but the fundamental precept derives from the erroneous concept of Total Depravity, or as some say, Total Inability.

Das Deutsch

  • Guest
Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #50 on: Sat Sep 28, 2019 - 13:03:43 »
I agree, the KJV translators did a poor job giving the sense of the Greek there.  I noticed as I scrolled down through discussions that several pages down there is indeed an extensive treatment of this notion of "Christ's faith".  I wonder if this is what was referred to when it was said that this matter has been dealt with here.  Having studied and taught Greek for almost 40 years I found those posts excellent, abbreviated as they seem to be.
Das Deutsch

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10473
  • Manna: 299
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #51 on: Sat Sep 28, 2019 - 14:19:01 »
It is a disagreement that raises its head every so often.  There are some theological views which rely heavily on that discrepancy.

Das Deutsch

  • Guest
Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #52 on: Mon Sep 30, 2019 - 11:52:52 »
Is there a reason my post above is going unanswered?  I imagine Mr. RB is fluent in German or else I would not be directed to read my ancestral language to receive instruction.  Luther's translation is very clear and not ambiguous in the least.  Where does it say "Christ's faith?"
Das Deutsch

Offline yogi bear

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12299
  • Manna: 744
  • Gender: Male
Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #53 on: Mon Sep 30, 2019 - 12:04:52 »
Red most likely just has not had the time hang in he will get to it when time permits.

Das Deutsch

  • Guest
Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #54 on: Wed Oct 09, 2019 - 06:45:00 »
I have noticed much time is available to repeat the same errors, why none to address something he said?
Das Deutsch

Das Deutsch

  • Guest
Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #55 on: Wed Oct 09, 2019 - 08:04:24 »
I will post this again here for easy access,
"Greetings, and yes, I actually have Luther’s translation in front of me.  I’m sorry, but I do not see “of” in his translation, nor in any of the German versions I have.  I have also checked the Vulgate, Italian, French, and a few others besides German.  Interestingly, the German agrees with the French which says, “God declares men righteous by their faith in Jesus Christ.”  Luther translated it - “ich sage aber von solcher gerechtigkeit vor Gott, die da kommt durch den glauben an Jesum Christum...” which says righteousness before God comes from through faith in Jesus Christ.  This agrees with the German translation I cited before, “durch den glauben an Jesus Christus,” except for his spelling of Jesus Christ.  I’m sorry, but I do not see the phrase “Christ’s faith” or “faith of Christ” anywhere, not even in the Greek texts. I do see the genitive of object in the Greek, and that most translations I use properly translate.  I’m not sure what basis you have for deeming modern translations corrupt in this regard."Das Deutsch

Das Deutsch

  • Guest
Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #56 on: Thu Oct 10, 2019 - 07:52:08 »
#55 above, Mr. RB.  I see "faith IN Jesus Christ" in the German, just as it is in the Greek, and the French is clear.  I formally studied French for 3 years in my schooling.  Can you explain why you dismiss what the manuscripts say that are the basis for translations none of which speak of Christ's faith? The English does not even say that. To read the objective genitive as a possessive is an inexcusable error for anyone claiming proficiency in exegesis.
I await your explanation.

Das Deutsch

Offline Steven Avery

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • Manna: 0
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
evidence for the heavenly witnesses verse
« Reply #57 on: Sat Mar 07, 2020 - 08:53:33 »
It was briefly and indirectly addressed by the person who suggested you ditch the KJV.  Very few other translations include the "in heaven" and the "and there are three who testify on earth, the Spirit, the water, and the blood."  There is no evidence those portions -- the "Johannine Comma" -- were part of the original letter.  There is no evidence they were anywhere in the letter before the 14th Century, when something sort of like the Johannine Comma (but not identical) appeared as a margin gloss, not as part of the text itself.

So basically, the whole point of this thread rests on a faulty translation, i.e. it rests on nothing.


This is totally false.
(Modern corruption version - Critical Text - pseudo-scholars use word-parsing to try to give this impression, so the fault is not that of NorrinRadd.)

The Old Latin and Vulgate mss fully support the verse.  The Old Latin is a 2nd century line, the Vulgate is 400 AD with Jerome using earlier Latin and Greek mss.

Cyprian referenced the heavenly witnesses c. 250 AD

The Vulgate Prologue of Jerome explains how transcribers were dropping the verse, defending the verse as truly scripture.

The Council of Carthage of 484 AD had hundreds of orthodox asserting the verse from John contra the 'Arians' under Huneric.

There is a solecism in the short Greek text that only has the earthly witnesses.

Eusebius shown an animus towards an ontological "three are one" writing contra Marcellum, supporting the idea that many doctrinal writers would prefer the short text when faced with the early split line. (Likely caused originally by homoeoteleuton.)

And there is much, much more.
And many of the evidences imply Greek mss, or are directly Greek evidences, or are from writers with dual language skills and Bibles.

Steven
« Last Edit: Sat Mar 07, 2020 - 09:01:57 by Steven Avery »

Offline Steven Avery

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • Manna: 0
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #58 on: Sat Mar 07, 2020 - 09:21:59 »
#55 above, Mr. RB.  I see "faith IN Jesus Christ" in the German, just as it is in the Greek, and the French is clear.  I formally studied French for 3 years in my schooling.  Can you explain why you dismiss what the manuscripts say that are the basis for translations none of which speak of Christ's faith? The English does not even say that. To read the objective genitive as a possessive is an inexcusable error for anyone claiming proficiency in exegesis. I await your explanation.
Das Deutsch
Romans 3 21-23
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested,
being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ
unto all and upon all them that believe:
for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


Even Daniel Wallace in his NetBible translates:
"through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ"
And gives his explanation as to why this is sound, even preferred, English translation

In addition, the explanation given here should be considered:

AV1611
Faith Is A Doctrine As Well As A Fuction!
Truth4Today
« Last Edit: Sat Mar 07, 2020 - 16:09:17 by Alan »

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10473
  • Manna: 299
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Heaven and earth agree...
« Reply #59 on: Sat Mar 07, 2020 - 12:40:14 »
Romans 3 21-23
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested,
being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ
unto all and upon all them that believe:
for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


Even Daniel Wallace in his NetBible translates:
"through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ"
And gives his explanation as to why this is sound, even preferred, English translation.

In addition, the explanation given here should be considered:

AV1611
Faith Is A Doctrine As Well As A Fuction!
Truth4Today

But clearly the "faithfulness" of Jesus Christ and the "faith" of Jesus Christ are two different concepts entirely, the first which is acceptable, the second which is false.  And if you wish to interpret "faith of Jesus Christ" as the Christian religion then you perhaps have a legitimate argument and one that others have presented. It is not my preferred interpretation for the passage here.
« Last Edit: Sat Mar 07, 2020 - 16:09:51 by Alan »