Author Topic: History is Crying Out to be Heard [Part 2]  (Read 475 times)

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Online Reformer

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History is Crying Out to be Heard [Part 2]
« on: Sun May 03, 2020 - 13:47:03 »
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
_______________________________

History is Crying Out to be Heard
[Part 2, Final]
 
KING JAMES
Founder, “Mad Church Disease”

    TELLING IT LIKE IT IS— I think it might be expedient to say that if King James had not intervened in the efforts of his Hebrew and Greek scholars, the KJV might have turned out to be among the most accurate translations. His interference and dictatorial decrees must have annoyed his scholars and surely impeded their endeavor to translate the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts flawlessly—or at least as closely as possible to the oldest available manuscripts.

    Consequently, most of the blame for the distorted sections of the KJV should be ascribed to King James, not to his translators. The King’s preferences relating to “church,” “Easter,”  “baptize,” “Bishop,” plus others, had to be adhered to by his translators. Indeed he became the innovator of “Mad Church Disease,” “Mad Easter Disease,” “Mad Bishop Disease,” and other theological disfigurements. The “side-effects” from the King’s blunders can be seen in the myriads of division, discords, and schisms among us
.
 
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    Please give your attention to the evidence. As noted in Part 1, King James instructed his translators, “The old ecclesiastical words to be kept...” He insisted that all ecclesiastical terms be retained. In Hebrews 2:12 of the KJV, the writer—probably Paul—quotes from Psalms 22:22, “For which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying, ‘I will declare thy name unto my brethren; in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto you.’ ”

    The Psalmist passage in the KJV reads, “I will declare thy name unto my brethren; in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.” The Hebrew word for “congregation” is kaw-hawl, which means assembly, company, congregation, multitude. The Greek counterpart for congregation or assembly is ekklesia. The King’s method of manipulating is almost unbelievable, for in Psalms 22:22 “congregation” is accurate, but in Hebrews 2:12 “church” is inaccurate, faulty translated, spurious, and a total distortion of the Greek.

    Let’s take a trip to Acts, chapter 19. Please travel with me. It can easily be demonstrated that King James was inconsistent and manipulative. In verses 32, 39, and 41, ekklesia correctly delivers “assembly.” My concern is why did his translators fail to translate ekklesia “church” in these passages, as they did elsewhere? If they and the King had been logically compatible, we would have, “For the church was confused,” “It shall be determined in a lawful church,” and “He dismissed the church.”

    The reason for this discrepancy is evident.  The  king  forced “church” into his translation to bolster his sect, The Established Church of England. The point I wish to make is if ekklesia is delivered correctly here, it is delivered incorrectly wherever “church” is found. There is no escaping this fact. The King went wild in using “church.” In verse 37, he even used it in place of “temple!”

     One of the foundational features of The Established Church of England sect was that she was colonized around “church,” just as our religious parties are. Hence, to keep “church” out of his version of the scriptures would have made him appear as though he were King and Head of a commonplace congregation or assembly. That would have been degrading!

     “Church” became so common following the KJV that most all other translations followed suit. There are a few exceptions, however. The Authentic New Testament [1955], translated by Hugh J. Schonfield, a Jew, gives “congregation” as the translation of ekklesia. Alexander Campbell’s Living Oracles [1800s] does not carry “church.” He used “church” in some of his writings, but he left it out of his Living Oracles. He knew the Greek ekklesia did not justify it. Another translation destitute of  “church” is The Christian Bible [1991]

     The deliberate mistake made by King James has cost us dearly, for contemporary religions have pounced upon his offense by creating and establishing sects and factions under the guise of “church” until they have divided and sub-divided themselves out of practical existence. An apostate system is the result.

    Another one of the King’s unsightly terms is “Bishop,” as used in 1 Timothy 3:1 and Titus 1:7. The Established Church of England had autocratic leaders called “Bishops.” The Greek in the Timothy passage is ep-is-kop-ay'and means “inspection” or “superintendence”—in short, an overseer or superintendent.

    The Greek in Titus is ep-is'-kop-os, signifying leadership abilities, overseer, or one in charge. Age-wise, these men were elders and gifted with wisdom, hospitably, and self-controlled. Young inexperienced men were never referred to as “elders,” for they are usually hot-headed and lack control and wisdom. “Bishop” portrays authority, control, and supremacy, the exact personality of The Established Church of England. Our Lord did not found this sort of ekklesia.

    Let’s briefly address one more of the King’s botches before we close—namely, “Easter,” as found in Acts 12:7. The Greek is pascha, meaning Passover. I have before me Adam Clarke’s treatise on The Acts of the Apostles. Clarke was a renowned Hebrew and Greek theologian [1762-1832]. Here are his comments on King James’ deliberate indiscretion. They are mentally stimulating!

   “The goddess Easter,  whose festival was celebrated by our pagan forefathers on the month of April...Perhaps there never was a more unhappy, not to say absurd, translation than that in our text...Every view we can take of this subject shows the gross impropriety of retaining a name every way exceptionable and palpably absurd” [pages 774-775].
 
    And there we have it. Other translations corrected many of King James’ missteps and mistakes, but not all of the errors have been rectified—particularly “church.” I suspect we are stuck with it until time is no more. But I will never again use it as a unifying appellation, glorify it, or praise it. I am forever finished with “Mad Church Disease.”
« Last Edit: Tue May 05, 2020 - 14:26:17 by Reformer »

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History is Crying Out to be Heard [Part 2]
« on: Sun May 03, 2020 - 13:47:03 »

Offline Rella

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Re: History is Crying Out to be Heard [Part 2]
« Reply #1 on: Sun May 03, 2020 - 20:04:08 »
Thank you Buff,

Regarding Easter in the KJV...

I ran across something new to me.  The following is my reply #26 in
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/bible-corruptions/msg1055163317/#new
Quote
So now we see that KJ was not the only bible to call Pascha Easter.

It came earlier in the Tyndale bible:

From the English Interlinear comparisons

http://www.genevabible.org/files/Geneva_Bible/6_Version_Comparison.pdf

PG 743 of book 44

Tyndale: And when he had caught him, he put him in prison,and delivered him to four quaternion of soldiers, to be kept, intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.

KJV: And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison,and delivered him to four quaternion of soldiers, to keep him; intending after Easter {Gr. Passover} to bring him forth to the people.

So now we have 2.


and I futher responded with reply #28

Quote
The point I was trying to make with the interlinear is that I have always been told that KJV was the only "English" translation that used the word Easter in Acts 12:4.

But that is not so.

The Tyndale publication of 1525 used Easter. So that was the first mention.

The Geneva publication of 1557 used Passover.

Then King James men, in their 1611 used Easter.

Now it is not a secret that KingJames was at odds over the Geneva bible and declared a new translation to be undertaken.

Seeing that Easter is used in no other translations, after KJV.... I cannot help but wonder if King James men did a little borrowing from the Tyndale translation.
Perhaps to speed things along? Perhaps to vary from Geneva?

I only know that until I got my hands on this interlinear that I was unaware of that.


This interlinear of the 5 English translation is informative,but is very difficult to move through.

But as you have noted other areas of concern with KJ I am going to try and see
what kind  of comparisons I can find in the others using this.

It WILL take me a while,but I will post anything I find.


Offline robycop3

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Re: History is Crying Out to be Heard [Part 2]
« Reply #2 on: Mon May 04, 2020 - 05:11:20 »
  The instructions to the AV 1611 translators were actually written by their boss, Archbishop Richard Bancroft, who was KJ's toadie. before giving them to the translators, he brought them to the king, who briefly read them & gave them the go-ahead.

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Re: History is Crying Out to be Heard [Part 2]
« Reply #2 on: Mon May 04, 2020 - 05:11:20 »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: History is Crying Out to be Heard [Part 2]
« Reply #3 on: Mon May 04, 2020 - 07:26:50 »
Buff rides his hobby horse again. Still not a dime's worth of difference between church, congregation, assembly. Perfectly good translation as most translations testify.
« Last Edit: Mon May 04, 2020 - 07:29:18 by johntwayne »

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Re: History is Crying Out to be Heard [Part 2]
« Reply #3 on: Mon May 04, 2020 - 07:26:50 »

Online Reformer

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Re: History is Crying Out to be Heard [Part 2]
« Reply #4 on: Mon May 04, 2020 - 13:51:37 »
Rella:

    Tyndale uses the word "ester." I assume that's the same as "Easter." The underlying thrust in my column was that King James took "Easter" and "church" and notarized them.

    Both terms were in use prior to the KJV. By the King "placing his seal" upon them gave them the publicity and acceptance that followed. That's why I labeled him the Founder of "Mad Church Disease."

Thanks for your thoughts,

Buff
« Last Edit: Mon May 04, 2020 - 23:28:12 by Reformer »

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Re: History is Crying Out to be Heard [Part 2]
« Reply #4 on: Mon May 04, 2020 - 13:51:37 »



Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: History is Crying Out to be Heard [Part 2]
« Reply #5 on: Tue May 05, 2020 - 14:34:00 »
"Mad Church Disease" existed prior to the word "church" or any English errors in translation intentional or not:

1 Corinthians 1:12


10I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, a in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16(Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.


Part 2 was a disappointment.

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Re: History is Crying Out to be Heard [Part 2]
« Reply #5 on: Tue May 05, 2020 - 14:34:00 »

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Re: History is Crying Out to be Heard [Part 2]
« Reply #6 on: Wed May 06, 2020 - 23:13:16 »
Texas Conservative:

    If factual history and reality disappoint you, brother, I suggest you examine yourself. "Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith."—Paul.

Buff

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: History is Crying Out to be Heard [Part 2]
« Reply #7 on: Thu May 07, 2020 - 07:51:59 »
Texas Conservative:

    If factual history and reality disappoint you, brother, I suggest you examine yourself. "Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith."—Paul.

Buff

You should examine yourself.  You are stuck on a cause of "Mad Church Disease" being some boogeyman when it is human nature itself.  The scriptures warn of this behavior in the NT assemblies.

You are living in the past with your wounds from hardline Sign Out Front Church of Christ "congregations."  This leads to you looking through a glass darkly.
« Last Edit: Thu May 07, 2020 - 07:54:06 by Texas Conservative »

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Re: History is Crying Out to be Heard [Part 2]
« Reply #8 on: Thu May 07, 2020 - 21:25:35 »
Texas Conservative:

       You seem to have an habitual practice of attacking demeanors instead of the core issues. Rarely do I read something from your pen that explains why a position or doctrinal statement is faulty. Your latest post carries a bona-fide example.

    “You are living in the past with your wounds from hardline Sign Out Front Church of Christ ‘congregations.’ ”

    Accusations, as such, do not prove or disprove one’s stance on any issue. I would like to see you break down a man’s precepts and illustrate precisely how his viewpoint is off-center. Perhaps I’ve been missing a few of your posts, but I do not recall of you ever “tearing a man’s position apart”—respectfully, of course—and demonstrating why it is defective.

    To put it another way, just pursuing an argumentative and combative stance leaves the dispute unanswered. Nothing is resolved and feelings are possibly wounded.

Think about it,

Buff
« Last Edit: Fri May 08, 2020 - 21:43:24 by Reformer »

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Re: History is Crying Out to be Heard [Part 2]
« Reply #8 on: Thu May 07, 2020 - 21:25:35 »

Offline Rob

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Re: History is Crying Out to be Heard [Part 2]
« Reply #9 on: Fri May 08, 2020 - 16:04:01 »
You should examine yourself.  You are stuck on a cause of "Mad Church Disease" being some boogeyman when it is human nature itself.  The scriptures warn of this behavior in the NT assemblies.

You are living in the past with your wounds from hardline Sign Out Front Church of Christ "congregations."  This leads to you looking through a glass darkly.
Dude seems bitter to me.

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Re: History is Crying Out to be Heard [Part 2]
« Reply #10 on: Fri May 08, 2020 - 21:51:59 »
Rob:

"Dude seems bitter to me."

    Not sure who the "Dude" is here. But whoever "Dude" is, where might I find him—in the old covenant scriptures or in the new covenant scriptures?

Buff


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Re: History is Crying Out to be Heard [Part 2]
« Reply #11 on: Fri May 08, 2020 - 22:51:03 »
Rob:

"Dude seems bitter to me."

    Not sure who the "Dude" is here. But whoever "Dude" is, where might I find him—in the old covenant scriptures or in the new covenant scriptures?

Buff
Ah you’re a smart ass too I see.

Offline Alan

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Re: History is Crying Out to be Heard [Part 2]
« Reply #12 on: Sat May 09, 2020 - 07:16:41 »

    Not sure who the "Dude" is here. But whoever "Dude" is, where might I find him—in the old covenant scriptures or in the new covenant scriptures?



Jude 1:16

16 These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

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Re: History is Crying Out to be Heard [Part 2]
« Reply #13 on: Mon May 11, 2020 - 05:59:23 »
The problem isn't really how the NT interpreters rendered the Greek word ekklesia.  The problem is how Buff renders the English word church.