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Author Topic: How can Jesus Christ be God?  (Read 15969 times)

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Online 4WD

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #105 on: Sat Apr 21, 2018 - 08:10:25 »
Yes of course one Spirit.  That is what the Trinity is all about.  Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  Three.  Not two.  Three yet One.

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #105 on: Sat Apr 21, 2018 - 08:10:25 »

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #106 on: Sat Apr 21, 2018 - 08:16:57 »
Yes of course one Spirit.  That is what the Trinity is all about.  Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  Three.  Not two.  Three yet One.

Excellent! I'm glad you agree! Knowing this then we know we worship & serve One God & that God has manifested Himself into the world as the man Jesus Christ. Which sheds the light of Christ on the verses in Song of Moses (Deuteronomy 32) where Moses foretells the death & ascension of Jesus Christ & who He is:

"39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever."

Jesus Christ is that one God.

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #106 on: Sat Apr 21, 2018 - 08:16:57 »

Online 4WD

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #107 on: Sat Apr 21, 2018 - 08:28:09 »
Jesus Christ is that one God.
Yes, but He is not the Father, nor is He the Holy Spirit.

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #107 on: Sat Apr 21, 2018 - 08:28:09 »

Offline RB

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #108 on: Sat Apr 21, 2018 - 08:34:27 »
Yes, but He is not the Father, nor is He the Holy Spirit.
In his divine nature HE IS! Or else, you have some serious ramifications to address if one believes otherwise, which I do not have time to discuss since I'm walking out the door to head for Atlanta. Brother Tim, help my friend out, would you please? 

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #108 on: Sat Apr 21, 2018 - 08:34:27 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #109 on: Sat Apr 21, 2018 - 08:45:17 »
In his divine nature HE IS! Or else, you have some serious ramifications to address if one believes otherwise, which I do not have time to discuss since I'm walking out the door to head for Atlanta. Brother Tim, help my friend out, would you please?
They are One; They are God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.  The Father is not the Son.  The Son is not the Father.  The Holy Spirit is not the Father, nor the Son.

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #109 on: Sat Apr 21, 2018 - 08:45:17 »



Offline TonkaTim

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #110 on: Sat Apr 21, 2018 - 09:15:12 »
In his divine nature HE IS! Or else, you have some serious ramifications to address if one believes otherwise, which I do not have time to discuss since I'm walking out the door to head for Atlanta. Brother Tim, help my friend out, would you please?

Brother Red, I honestly was going to leave off at my last post, for now. I was motivated to take the statement & conversation with 4WD to make the scriptural case Jesus is the one true God.

You have already made a good case about the nature & purposes of God. Anymore & I may be more or less rephrasing much of what you have already said. So for the moment I'm going to pray that the Spirit of Truth will enlighten & guide us all on the matter.

If motivated I may add more later, but for the moment I am not motivated to do so. My apologies.

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #110 on: Sat Apr 21, 2018 - 09:15:12 »

Offline soterion

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #111 on: Sat Apr 21, 2018 - 10:28:28 »

Quote:  (Colossians 1:16-17).

You have to keep reading, if you stop you will never come to the truth. Also, you contradict yourself so much in your post, its just silly to read it. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but your doing it to yourself and worse of all to the teaching. You should be very cautious when spreading falsehood, and its so harmful to the body. Gods Word is like a two edged sword and with no handle so it should be respected. If your not sure it seems best not to say anything, you wouldn't want to disrespect God's truth would you?

Don't be shy. I can tell you're holding back. Tell me how you really feel. ::noworries::

Quote
The rest of that passage tells the truth.

all things have been created through Him and for Him.

He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,

and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
  -Col.1:17-20

The New Creation, through Christ the Son of God to the Father who is God.

Some translations say "through Him" instead of "for Him." I won't make a big deal. If I am understanding what you are implying by your last line, Jesus was not the Creator of Genesis 1, but rather of the "New Creation." If that is the case, I have to disagree. John 1:1-3, along with the Colossian passage and others tell me otherwise.

You still cannot show Jesus to be a created being. Nobody can. That alone makes Him God. Scripture presents no alternatives. He who became Jesus in the flesh is either eternally existing as God or He was created. You're choice.

Offline notreligus

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #112 on: Sat Apr 21, 2018 - 14:11:07 »
Don't be shy. I can tell you're holding back. Tell me how you really feel. ::noworries::

Some translations say "through Him" instead of "for Him." I won't make a big deal. If I am understanding what you are implying by your last line, Jesus was not the Creator of Genesis 1, but rather of the "New Creation." If that is the case, I have to disagree. John 1:1-3, along with the Colossian passage and others tell me otherwise.

You still cannot show Jesus to be a created being. Nobody can. That alone makes Him God. Scripture presents no alternatives. He who became Jesus in the flesh is either eternally existing as God or He was created. You're choice.

"You still cannot show Jesus to be a created being. Nobody can. That alone makes Him God. Scripture presents no alternatives. He who became Jesus in the flesh is either eternally existing as God or He was created. You're choice."

I completely agree with you.  We've got some Jehovah's Witnesses here in this thread who don't seem to know that they are Jehovah's Witnesses in their beliefs about Jesus Christ.   What you believe about Jesus defines whether or not you are a Christian.  A Christian can't follow a false Christ.   

A claim to believe the Trinity does not make for one having the right belief about Jesus Christ.   Jesus is in Genesis.   But we have folk here who think that book is allegory.  They don't see Jesus involved in Creation.  They don't see Jesus in Genesis 3:21.   They don't believe that God Himself provided salvation such that mankind would be reconciled back to Him and the curse of original sin would be eliminated.   (The curse is/was both spiritual and physical.  Jesus has provided victory over spiritual death.)   They think they have saved their own souls by their works and their obedience while the Bible teaches that it was by Christ's obedience that mankind was reconciled to God Almighty.   


The view of Jesus presented in Judaism, that the Messiah need not be divine but would be a man sent from God to set up God's earthly kingdom,  influences the view of many Christians. They are afraid to object as though God will punish them for disagreeing with Judaism, not realizing that much of Judaism is not even from the Scriptures but is a view with origins in the teachings of rabbis (the Talmud).  I posted for years at a Messianic board called the ZolaBoard and it was common there to find that the Messianic Jews believe that Jesus was the created Son of God.   And I was one of the few who posted there who objected to that view.  It was made known to me that I was not welcome there.   

The former local cable TV provider used to offer local channels for programs originating with local residents.   One local resident regularly had a program which included teachings by a Muslim Imam.   I would sometimes listen just to learn what they were teaching.   One day this Iman was mocking Christians and "their God."   He laughed as he stated that "Christians believe that God killed himself" to save them.    Well, I'm not sure how well he knew most Christians because the deeper you dig into the beliefs of many Christians the more you find that they reject that God Himself did what was necessarily and acceptable to Him to save us.   


Peace with God Through Faith

Rom 5:1  Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:2  Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 5:3  Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,
Rom 5:4  and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,
Rom 5:5  and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
Rom 5:6  For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7  For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—
Rom 5:8  but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9  Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Rom 5:10  For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11  More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
 
Death in Adam, Life in Christ

Rom 5:12  Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
Rom 5:13  for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Rom 5:14  Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
Rom 5:15  But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
Rom 5:16  And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
Rom 5:17  For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18  Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
Rom 5:19  For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
Rom 5:20  Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
Rom 5:21  so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Redemption Through the Blood of Christ

Heb 9:11  But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12  he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
Heb 9:13  For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh,
Heb 9:14  how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Heb 9:15  Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Heb 9:16  For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.
Heb 9:17  For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.
Heb 9:18  Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.
Heb 9:19  For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
Heb 9:20  saying, "This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you."
Heb 9:21  And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship.
Heb 9:22  Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Heb 9:23  Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24  For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25  Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26  for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27  And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Heb 9:28  so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Offline soterion

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #113 on: Sat Apr 21, 2018 - 14:26:04 »
The former local cable TV provider used to offer local channels for programs originating with local residents.   One local resident regularly had a program which included teachings by a Muslim Imam.   I would sometimes listen just to learn what they were teaching.   One day this Iman was mocking Christians and "their God."   He laughed as he stated that "Christians believe that God killed himself" to save them.    Well, I'm not sure how well he knew most Christians because the deeper you dig into the beliefs of many Christians the more you find that they reject that God Himself did what was necessarily and acceptable to Him to save us.   


Acts 20:28.
Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #113 on: Sat Apr 21, 2018 - 14:26:04 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #114 on: Sat Apr 21, 2018 - 16:15:01 »
CHRIST is never a GOD WORD.

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks,
        repentance toward God, [Theos]
        and faith toward our Lord [Kurios] Jesus Christ.

John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath SANCTIFIED, and sent into the world,
        Thou BLASPHEMEST ; because I said, I AM THE SON OF GOD.

1Cor. 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth,
        to them that SANCTIFIED in Christ Jesus, called to be saints,
        with all that in every place call upon
        the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours
:

Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him,
         that of the fruit of his loins, ACCORDING TO THE FLESH
         he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ,
        that his soul was not left in hell, NEITHER HIS FLESH DID SEE CORRUPTION
Rom. 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord,
        which was made of the SEED (sperm)  of David ACCORDING TO THE FLESH
1Pet. 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God,
        BEING PUT TO DEAT IN THE FLESH  but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pet. 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ HATH SUFFERED FOR US IN THE FLESH
         arm yourselves likewise with the SAME MIND:
         for he that hath suffered IN HE FLESH hath ceased from sin;

1John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God:
        Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ IS COME IN THE FLESH IS OF GOD
1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth NOT that Jesus Christ
        IS NOT COME IN THE FLESH  is not of God:
         and this is that spirit of ANTICHRIST,
        whereof ye have heard that it should come;
        and even now already is it in the world.
2John 7 For many DECEIVERS are entered into the world,
        who confess NOT that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.
         This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #115 on: Sat Apr 21, 2018 - 16:28:12 »
CHRIST is never a GOD WORD.
What is that supposed to mean?  That God never used the word Christ?  That Christ is not God? Sublett, you speak gibberish so much of the time.

Offline BTR

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #116 on: Sat Apr 21, 2018 - 17:47:02 »
Quote: "Acts 20:28.
Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood."



Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.  -RSV

Watch out for yourselves and for all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son.  -NET

Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, wherein the Holy Spirit has set you as overseers, to shepherd the assembly of God, which he has purchased with the blood of his own.  -DBY

There are discrepancies with this verse as there are variants in the Greek manuscripts, some that say "church of God" and some that say "church of the Lord" and in some manuscripts "his own blood" and in some the "blood of his own".

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #117 on: Sat Apr 21, 2018 - 23:17:42 »
Quote
What is that supposed to mean?  That God never used the word Christ?  That Christ is not God? Sublett, you speak gibberish so much of the time.

MOST of the time I just quote Scripture!!

Theos is a God Word.
Jehovah or YHWH is a God word.
Christ is not a God word; it just means anointed OF God.  Jesus didn't anoint Himself.
GOD anoints the man Jesus or God GIVES the role of MESSIAH to Jesus.
God is not the Messiah.
Kurios is not a God word it just means Lord or Ruler.
Child is not a God Word.
Son is not a God Word.
Begotten FROM the Dead is not a God word.

BTR took that "reading class" and understands that God does not have flesh or bones or blood.
Jesus WHOM GOD MADE TO BE BOTH LORD AND CHRIST Died on the Cross and shed HIS BLOOD.
GOD prevented JESUS FROM rotting in the tomb.



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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #118 on: Sun Apr 22, 2018 - 06:58:30 »

Jehovah or YHWH is a God word.

Kurios is not a God word it just means Lord or Ruler.

The LXX translates YHWH as Kurios.

Offline grams

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #119 on: Sun Apr 22, 2018 - 08:24:34 »

I cant see it any place here ?   Did any one post this ?  Part.

Some place it says  GOD  came down as a man..........

But  I just can not find it....  Any one ?   See that  verse ?


Offline soterion

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #120 on: Sun Apr 22, 2018 - 08:45:50 »
I cant see it any place here ?   Did any one post this ?  Part.

Some place it says  GOD  came down as a man..........

But  I just can not find it....  Any one ?   See that  verse ?

John 1:1-3, 14.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Philippians 2:5-8.
Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Offline BTR

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #121 on: Sun Apr 22, 2018 - 11:57:45 »
Quote
They are One; They are God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.  The Father is not the Son.  The Son is not the Father.  The Holy Spirit is not the Father, nor the Son.

That is traditions of men teaching, its wrong.
Its not God the Son or God the Holy Spirit, there is only One God and He is the Father. Jesus is the Son of God, Now together they are The Holy Spirit.

“If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him."

The Son is in you and the Father is in Him. The Father in Jesus makes him God no more than Jesus in you makes you Jesus.

God said He changes not and that He is One, He is not a man. Jesus is God's Son, He was a man.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #122 on: Sun Apr 22, 2018 - 15:04:44 »
MESSIAH WOULD COME FROM  Bethlehem Ephratah

John 1:14 And the WORD was MADE flesh, and dwelt among us,
        and we beheld his glory,
        the glory as of THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER
        full of grace and TRUTH.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

The  GOD'S WORD was not GOD MADE FLESH.
God's WORD or TRUTH was made Visible And Audible
BY THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER.

The Word or Truth or Light or GRACE was made known by the MAN Jesus of Nazareth

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses,                      [a Prophet]
       but grace and TRUTH [Word] came by Jesus Christ.   [a Prophet like Moses]
John 1:18 No man hath seen GOD at any time;
       The only begotten Son,
       which is in the bosom    (Love or Confidence)
       of the Father,
       he hath DECLARED HIM.]

Jesus was NOT GOD MADE FLES but Jesus DECLARED the Word by Speaking only what the Father put into His Mouth.  Spirit is that medium of change between the ONE GOD THE FATHER and ONE SON Jesus Christ.  Beginning as each witness is leaving His PART in the Epistles the term THE HOLY SPIRIT almost disappears.  The SALUTATIONS are from God AND Jesus:

1Tim. 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ
        by the commandment of God our Saviour,
        AND Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

As BTR has noted the SPIRIT is the Spirit OF God or the Spirit OF Christ. OF is a preposition not covered in schools of theology. Scholars have noted that SPIRIT is that which passes between FATHER and SON.  There are many passages which show that God PUTS WORDS into the MOUTH of His spokesmen.  Once the Father has begotten A word it is different in some respects and is described as a PERSONAE but never a person.  John Calvin was convinced to use ASPECTS of God by someone who escaped being burned at the stake.

Declared:   exēg-eomai , A.to be leader of, 2. c. acc. pers., lead, govern, 3. c. dat. pers. et acc. rei, show one the way to,
II. dictate a form of WORDS, “e. ton nomon tō kēruki” D.19.70; exēgou theous dictate, name them, E.Med.745.
2. generally, prescribe, order, 3. expound, interpret, “e. to ounoma kai tēn thusiēn” Hdt.2.49;
      kērux   A.herald, pursuivant: generally, public messenger, envoy from presbeis, as being messengers between nations, interchangeably with apostolos

Declared: ē-narro, to explain in detail, to expound, interpret, more explicitly: “scribere,”

The MAN Jesus is often called OF NAZARETH.
Jesus was made FLESH about 30 years before God SANCTIFIED Him and qualified Him to be a PRIEST.
What John saw and heard was the SON OF GOD, Jesus MADE to be Lord and Christ 30 years after He came IN THE FLESH.
The WORD came in the FLESH of Peter, Paul and others.  Paul Spoke by the Spirit or Breath of Jesus made HOLY SPIRIT.

That agrees with earlier historical definitions that God in respect to COMMUNICATION is Father, Spirit, Son.  Or Thought, Breath and Word.  Contrary to the LU GURU, God is not ecstatic or OUTSIDE of Himself or OUT OF HIS MIND when He breathes to send forth Words.

All of the REQUIRED triad elements as the SON OF GOD DECLARING God and His Word are claimed by Jesus of Nazareth Who was given ALL authority to reveal Father, Son and Spirit.  Jesus claimed that the Father and Spirit were IN HIM in the same sense that John 14 notes that WE are IN the Father-Spirit CONDITIONED on us obeying Christ's Commands.

GOD IS LIGHT but We do not SEE God because that Light (same meaning as Word) is REFLECTED in the Face of Jesus. ALL THAT WE DO AND TEACH must be in the NAME OF THE LORD.

Paul saw that LIGHT which blinded him and was identified as JESUS OF NAZARETH.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #123 on: Thu May 03, 2018 - 19:52:57 »
I would like someone to answer these questions with coherent answers.
I'm yer huckleberry. :wink:

Quote
Is Jesus the same person as the Father?
The Father is a deity, not a person.

Perhaps what you mean is the Latin word personae that was used in the formulation of the early creeds of the church, in which case you might want to double check your Latin.  I do not think that word is well-translated into English as "person."

Is Jesus a demi god, separate in being from the Father?
There's no such thing as a demi god.  That's science fiction.

Is Jesus the same essence as the Father?
I'll assume you're referring to Greek ousia, another word used in early church creeds.  That whole formulation smacks of Platonic thought, but nonetheless the answer is yes, though I'd rather put it in terms such as image or icon.  Those are words Paul used.

Is there just one God, but Jesus is a different person from the Father?
Same as the first question, it doesn't actually make any sense to call the Father a person. 

Let's try a thought experiment.  Let's say you paint a picture of me.  Now, a man comes along and asks "is that Jarrod?"  You will say, "yes," although it is not actually me standing there, but rather a painting of me. 

Likewise, if we point at Jesus and ask, "is that God?" the answer will be "yes," though it is not the Godhead being pointed at, but rather the representation of the Godhead, painted in a medium of flesh, bones, and blood.  He is the image of the invisible God - a self-portrait if you will.

Was Jesus a created being?
The creeds say no, but quickly add that he was begotten.  The difference between the two is something that isn't really coherent within a modern English scientific paradigm.  If you want me to break down further I can, but it will require you going outside your own paradigm to understand from another perspective.

Is Jesus part God and part man?
Like a Liger is part Lion and part Tiger?  No.

Is Jesus a man husk filled with a God spirit?
Jesus had His own spirit, but He also had the Spirit of God without limit.  It's not right to call it a man husk, but it's not wrong to say it was filled with God's spirit.

Does Jesus only appear to be a man but is actually only God?
No.

Is Jesus fully man and fully God?
According to the creeds, yes.  But do you understand what the word fully is talking about in the creeds?  Greek pleroo?  Because it has to do with refuting gnostic teachings that have been mostly lost for 2000 years.  I think it's more likely you are misapplying the phrase to this topic.

Seems to me there was a time in the Garden of Gethsemane that Jesus cried out to His father, but there was an obvious and distinct separation.
This is not a question.  Hence, there is no answer. :smile:

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #124 on: Fri May 04, 2018 - 16:42:49 »
The LXX translates YHWH as Kurios.
It would be more accurate to say that the LXX does not attempt to translate the divine name, because the Name was held in such reverence.  The word kurios is used as a placeholder or substitute most frequently, but other words are also used, such as ouranos (literally 'heavens').

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #125 on: Fri May 04, 2018 - 16:50:35 »
It would be more accurate to say that the LXX does not attempt to translate the divine name, because the Name was held in such reverence.  The word kurios is used as a placeholder or substitute most frequently, but other words are also used, such as ouranos (literally 'heavens').

" because the Name was held in such reverence"

I wonder when that tradition began?


I ask because when one reads the Book of Ruth we find in the dialogue normal every day folks used & spoke the name.

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #126 on: Fri May 04, 2018 - 17:29:36 »
When Jesus accosted Paul [Saul] on the road to damascus, Paul asked, "Who are you Lord [kurios]"?  Jesus did not contradict or correct Paul but answered, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting,"  Clearly Paul knew the significance of the LORD [YHVH] God of the OT.  And once Jesus identified Himself to Paul, Paul from then on referred to Jesus as Lord [kurios], essentially distinguishable from God, the Father. I could make a great deal more on that, but I will just leave it at that.
« Last Edit: Fri May 04, 2018 - 17:32:36 by 4WD »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #127 on: Fri May 04, 2018 - 20:16:16 »
True: in the New Testament YHWH is GOD or THEOS.
Jesus is NOT Theos but Lord or KURIO which distinguishes him for God-Theos.

The true ALMIGHTY in Hebrew is Lord (YHWH) as the ONLY real God (Elohim)

Matt. 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the PROPHET of Nazareth of Galilee.

Mark 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou JESUS OF NAZARETH?
         art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One OF God.
Mark 10:47 And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth,
         he began to cry out, and say, Jesus, THE SON OF DAVID, have mercy on me.
Luke 24:19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him,
          Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was A PROPHET MIGHTY
           IN DEED and WORD BEFORE GOD and all the people:
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words;
Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN approved of GOD among you by miracles and wonders and signs,
          which GOD DID BY HIM in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

AMONG OTHER THINGS the Glorified Jesus now HOLY SPIRIT appears as a BLINDING LIGHT.  GOD IS LIGHT and Jesus appeared to Paul and let him Hear HIS voice TO QUALIFY him to "be guided into all truth" in the same way Jesus as HOLY SPIRIT guided the earlier apostles into all truth.

Acts 22:8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me,
         I am Jesus OF Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
Acts 26:9 I verily thought with myself,
        that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus OF Nazareth.

ONE VIEW THAT SHOULD SPOOK ALL BELIEVERS IS

The Ruler of the universe is
     The Father who only thinks and plans
     The Spirit as a separate PERSON required to BREATH
     The Son or jESUS as the only BEING who can speak.

THE OTHER MARK OF THOSE OF THE WORLD

Denies the claim of Jesus that HE is the only VISIBLE-AUDIBLE-TEACHING man-prophet-priest-king is Jesus of Nazareth.

That defines God as three mutually-incompetent persons
and Defines Jesus as incompetent and a liar for saying that He has ALL power and authority over HIS Creation, kingdom or Church

The very first writers in additon to John wrote several decades later to REFUTE the Greek-Jewish dogma that Jesus WAS JEHOVAH.  This was the way to DENY even now that Jesus is the MESSIAH of Gentiles.

The First, well-Documented view of God as always having His mind, wisdom, spirit and word WITH HIM. God is ETERNAL. Everything in the Bible begins with a BEGINNING.  It is easy to recite dogma and force compliance and refuse to teach the RULER OF THE UNIVERSE as being SPIRIT which is beyond grasping as the NATURE of His existence while Jesus said that GOD HAS NOT FLESH AND BONES AS YE SEE ME HAVE.

Tertullian refutes the Praxeas view and what he calls the CATHOLIC (Rome?) view
Theophilus refutes the view of "Autolycus"

« Last Edit: Fri May 04, 2018 - 20:38:30 by Kenneth Sublett »

Offline larry2

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #128 on: Fri May 04, 2018 - 21:40:58 »
If we can't refer to our Father as a person; right or wrong, and though He is the majesty on high, why is He using the word "US" in Gen 1:26  And God said, Let US make man in our image, after our likeness, or for that matter taking the personage of Father?

Another example is in Gen 1:5  And God called the light Day, and the darkness HE called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Why is God referred to as Father and He instead of One giving birth such as mother and she?

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #129 on: Sat May 05, 2018 - 06:06:31 »
We are part spirit and part earth.  "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"

erets: earth, land
Original Word: אָ֫רֶץ
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: erets
Phonetic Spelling: (eh'-rets)
Short Definition: land

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.  -Ecc. 12:7

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #130 on: Sat May 05, 2018 - 06:14:00 »
It is easy to recite dogma and force compliance and refuse to teach the RULER OF THE UNIVERSE as being SPIRIT which is beyond grasping as the NATURE of His existence while Jesus said that GOD HAS NOT FLESH AND BONES AS YE SEE ME HAVE.
Jesus said that "spirit has not flesh and bones as you see me have":

Luke 24:39  See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."

Where does He say that about God?

Offline RB

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #131 on: Sat May 05, 2018 - 08:25:59 »
The First, well-Documented view of God as always having His mind, wisdom, spirit and word WITH HIM. God is ETERNAL. Everything in the Bible begins with a BEGINNING.  It is easy to recite dogma and force compliance and refuse to teach the RULER OF THE UNIVERSE as being SPIRIT which is beyond grasping as the NATURE of His existence while Jesus said that GOD HAS NOT FLESH AND BONES AS YE SEE ME HAVE.
Yes God is eternal. You said:  Everything in the Bible begins with a BEGINNING~this is also true. God is a Spirit~this is true.
Quote from: Kenneth Sublett Reply #127 on: Yesterday at 20:16:16
while Jesus said that GOD HAS NOT FLESH AND BONES AS YE SEE ME HAVE
Now Jesus never said those exact words~that is your assumption base on your own conclusion that God, the eternal Spirit  can not manifest himself in the likeness of sinful flesh! But, He can and he did in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. Your faulty humanistic logic puts limits on the wisdom and power of Godhead. We must receive God's testimony concerning the mystery of godliness according to 1st Timothy 3:16; Acts 20:28!
Quote from: Kenneth Sublett Everything in the Bible begins with a BEGINNING
Everything in the Bible begins with a BEGINNING
We fully agree with this statement, and Jesus' SONSHIP had a beginning, yet his deity is eternal both ways as God~Kenneth, do you believe that Jesus was a complex person, God and man~fully both? This is the ONLY way we can understand certain scriptures, and also, it's essential to believe this to maintain Jesus' deity. 
« Last Edit: Sat May 05, 2018 - 08:31:23 by RB »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #132 on: Sat May 05, 2018 - 10:32:04 »
Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is fully God and fully human. He is the eternal Son of God who took on humanity in order to save us.

Num. 23:19 GOD IS NOT A MAN, that he should lie; NEITHER THE SON OF MAN
        that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it?
        or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

JESUS WAS A MAN AND THE SON OF MAN:

Matt. 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests;
          but the SON OF MAN hath not where to lay his head.

Matt. 9:27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying,
          Thou Son of David, have mercy on us.
Matt. 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

It is not likely that God wants to BECOME a man or a son of Man.  Jesus was the Man and Son of Man but He was not pronouncd the Son of God until after He was baptized.

GOD IS SPIRIT: JESUS IS NOT

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers
            shall worship THE FATHER IN SPIRITand in truth:
            for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
John 4:24 God is a SPIRIT: and they that worship him
           must worship HIM in spirit and in truth.

Jesus or HIM is not God the father.

John 4:25 The woman saith unto him,
           I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ:
             when he is come, he will tell us all things.
John 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I THAT SPEAK UNTO THE AM HE
John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them,
             My meat is to DO THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT ME
             and to finish HIS WORK

MY is not the Father Who SENT

John 4:44 For Jesus himself testified, that a PROPHET hath no honour in his own country.

Jesus is always the PROPHET promised to FINISH the pattern laid down by God's Spirit Who breathed into the writing prophets.

God is SPIRIT and Jesus was the Man.

Luke 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted,
        and supposed that they had seen a SPIRIT.
Luke 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled?
        and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see;
        for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

God is Spirit. Jesus was not Spirit. Therefore Jesus was the Lord (Kurios) and not God (Theos).

Paul understood that Messiah, never considered a "god" word, would be the SEED of Abraham and David. He was IN THE FLESH and was not God. He says that He is the SON of God as are baptized believers.

Rom. 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle,
        separated unto the gospel of God,
Rom. 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
Rom. 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord,
        which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom. 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power,
        according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Neither Jesus nor Christ are GOD Words: Isaiah said that Jesus would come in the NAME of God or the Father. Jesus said that He was FLESH: was He too ignorant to say that He was also SPIRIT and the ONE GOD THE FATHER?

Offline BTR

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #133 on: Sat May 05, 2018 - 21:20:17 »
Quote: "We must receive God's testimony concerning the mystery of godliness according to 1st Timothy 3:16; Acts 20:28!"


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. -KJV

There is an error in this verse, either unintentional or intentional. The Messiah was manifest in the flesh. Jesus was preached to the Gentiles. The Messiah was believed on in the world, the Jews already believed in God. Jesus was seen of angels (or messengers) and received up into glory. The Father did not need to be justifide or recieved up into glory. The Greek is Who, most other translations other than KJV or NKJV adds a footnote, read He.

Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our religion: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory. -RSV

Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. -KJV

Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.  -RSV

There is a veriant in manuscrips of this verse. But now that I look at this verse I see what they are missing, well first I think the comma is in the wrong place in the KJV and the word Son at the end of the RSV may not need to be there, but makes more sense in the way its constructed, not realizing who the Spirit is. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ in this verse and He purchased the church with His own blood. God is Spirit and has no blood.


« Last Edit: Sat May 05, 2018 - 21:50:15 by BTR »

Offline bemark

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #134 on: Sun May 06, 2018 - 04:08:31 »
Is orange juice the orange

Offline bemark

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #135 on: Sun May 06, 2018 - 04:17:49 »
A orange can be flesh liquid and scent . I smell a scent of a orange... is that a orange...no but it still is

Offline bemark

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #136 on: Sun May 06, 2018 - 04:23:55 »
If i was blind the scent would be a orange to me. Then  the feel and then the taste. All are orange and all are unique, seperate but one.
« Last Edit: Sun May 06, 2018 - 04:26:48 by bemark »

Offline bemark

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #137 on: Sun May 06, 2018 - 04:37:54 »
What about the 3 baptisms each seperate but one .In the NAME of The Father Son and Holy Ghost. Well one can only get that by being with each one in the spirit realm. How could they release the baptisms  unless it was released upon or to  them?  So now they can spend time with all 3  as one. You cant open a door in the spirit realm unless you hold that key. It must be given to you first.

The name is not like smith or jones.  its the realm around them or what they carry. Its who they are so we can be like them. you can only be like them by being in them and they in you
« Last Edit: Sun May 06, 2018 - 05:08:16 by bemark »

Offline bemark

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #138 on: Sun May 06, 2018 - 04:55:10 »
I started this so i will say one thing more. The true baptism of the Father is yet to fall upon the church. Its the next move of God. Its the dread of the Lord. Its when you cant and dare not say anything before him. He is who he is and he is almighty God. Its when you dare not move when he decends in power . Hes comming

Offline jojo50

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #139 on: Mon May 07, 2018 - 11:33:26 »

when using the objective pronoun "US" ,it would imply there is more that ONE... person. at Gen. 1:26, God was speaking to another, HIS SON! Jesus was CREATED, first of ALL other Angels, (Colo.1:15,16 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him). Jesus told us from Heaven before he was sent, that he was "WITH"... his Father before ANYTHING was created ...

Pro. 8:22-30 this is part of what Jesus said..."he LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.  I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth. When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep. When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth. Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him). he HELPED his Father create everything after him.

his Father, and he does have one, name is JEHOVAH. and he gave the name to Moses ,(Exo. 6:3 and I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them). Jesus shows that he is part of his Father, but NOT that there was a "3 god in one". they there were sperate beings. as it was shown in Proverbs. also NONE of those scriptures that you post showed ANYTHING about a "TRINITY". your words..."God is the Trinity, made up of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. This is in Proverbs 30:4; Psalm 2:12; Isaiah 9:6; 48:12,13,16; Daniel 3:25; Micah 5:2; Exodus 3:3-15; (24:9-18); John 8:58,59,24".

Pro.30:4 "4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell? (asks for the FATHER'S name and the SON'S name. this does NOT show a "TRINITY". Psa. 2:12 "Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him. (ISN'T showing a "trinity").

Isaiah 9:6; (For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace, (ALL TITLES, Jesus is NOT the Almighty God and Father, he has one ,(see John 20:17). he is called "EVERLASTING FATHER", because Adam who was the first , brought death to humans. but Jesus who cause is to be born again, became our last and ONLY father who gave us a chance for life. thus he was the last Adam ,(1Cor. 15:45).  and there's a difference between "Mighty God" and almighty God. many are called false gods be-it humans, items etc., but Jesus is the ONLY one who can be seem as a "god", (1Cor. 8:5,6). still he's NOT the Grand Creator. 

as for Isa. 48:12,13,16  this is referring to Jehovah God, NOT Jesus. whenever there's a capital L-O-R-D or G-O-D it's mostly referring to jehovah or Yawhweh. Jesus is usually refer to as "Lord", lower case see ,(Psa. 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. ,(LORD =Jehovah, Lord =Jesus ,David here, was speaking on what he was Hearing Jehovah God say to Jesus).  Daniel 3:25 , Micah 5:2 , Exodus 3:3-15, 24:9-18  has NOTHING  to do with a "trinity".  neither does what it says at John 8:58,59,24. when Jesus said "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

if you do some serious research you would see that Jesus was NOT referring to himelf as being the "IAM" of Exo. 3:14 when speaking of being around before Abraham was born. Jesus basically meant... “I am The Being or I am The Existing One.” again Jesus showed that he and his Fathe are TWO... different being ,(John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent). if Jesus and God "was 1 in 3", Jesus would say that we needed to "KNOW"..."THE ONLY TRUE GOD", meaning his Father. then included also getting to "KNOW" him. and humans does NOT have a "soul which is 100% human that tells your body what to do" as you stated.

because our MINDS and Hearts dictate our actions. there's NO "SOUL" as in something inside us. we as humans are LIVING "SOULS" (Gen. 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul). the "SOUL", is a living human being, period! which means God doesn't have , as you said..." something like a soul called God the Father". God ,Jehovah IS THE FATHER! and Jesus is the SON who he sent to save our lives. peace


 

 

     
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