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Offline bemark

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #210 on: Thu May 10, 2018 - 22:04:51 »
Did the wise men worship baby Jesus?

Did they seek him out and adone him with gifts.

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #210 on: Thu May 10, 2018 - 22:04:51 »

Offline bemark

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #211 on: Thu May 10, 2018 - 22:08:08 »

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Matthew 2
Matthew 1Matthew 3

Matthew 2 New King James Version (NKJV)

Wise Men from the East
2 Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, 2 saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #211 on: Thu May 10, 2018 - 22:08:08 »

Offline bemark

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #212 on: Thu May 10, 2018 - 22:10:19 »
Baby Jesus who had done nothing . Why did he deserve to be worhipped. It was because who he was

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #212 on: Thu May 10, 2018 - 22:10:19 »

Offline bemark

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #213 on: Thu May 10, 2018 - 22:19:40 »
Also thanks fish for stepping in as my views line up with yours . Jesus Christ is Lord and that Lord is over all. He is God and like RB said again and again and again. Both God and man.

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #213 on: Thu May 10, 2018 - 22:19:40 »

Offline fish153

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #214 on: Thu May 10, 2018 - 23:59:37 »
Kenneth---

You keep repeating that the Son is not the Father. I agree completely. The SON and the FATHER are different persons in the Trinity. The HOLY SPIRIT is the third person. That is why the seraphim say "HOLY HOLY HOLY is the Lord God Almighty". They don't say "God's"---they say "GOD". Three Persons in ONE God.

The SON who is the WORD came forth from God and became flesh. He was GOD in the flesh--- the God-man--- Son of God and Son of Man. You just simply do not understand Kenneth. You are trying to define God using human logic just as the JW's do.

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #214 on: Thu May 10, 2018 - 23:59:37 »



Offline bemark

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #215 on: Fri May 11, 2018 - 02:41:50 »
Little bitty baby Jesus.  How do we see him

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #215 on: Fri May 11, 2018 - 02:41:50 »

Offline bemark

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #216 on: Fri May 11, 2018 - 03:29:24 »
when do we see Jesus as God?



Offline RB

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #217 on: Fri May 11, 2018 - 04:09:40 »
No---the Son is not the Father--they are different persons in the Godhead.
Brother here is where you are wrong concerning the Godhead.... Jesus in his deity is the everlasting Father of all things, or Isaiah was one confused prophet, for he clearly declared the Son that was to be given was ALSO the everlasting Father.
Quote from: Isaiah
Isaiah 9:6,7~"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this."
You can never be able to convince Kenneth where he is wrong, and Kenneth will also remain in darkness for BOTH of you are refusing to rightly divide scriptures and protect Jesus' deity by using Jesus' complex natures to do so. It's really not hard, we just MUST be willing to stand upon God's testimony and refuse man's vain ideas and doctrines concerning the Godhead, which is hard for many to do.

Who was this child born? God's only begotten, Son. Yet Isaiah said much more than that~he said that this child IS the MIGHTY God...Now how can this be? Mary did not give birth to Immanuel, did she? Impossible, she gave birth to God's Son, Jesus of Nazareth. The Word in the beginning, which was God joined Himself to the tabernacle of God's Son and thus Jesus became the ONLY complex person with TWO distinct natures, BOTH man and God in ONE PERSON, and that person was JESUS CHRIST, the true God and eternal life. It is called the mystery of godliness, performed by the wisdom, power and the zeal of the LORD of hosts~and it's marvelous in our eyes, and we have no problems believing that with God all things are possible. Jesus was a man as much as you and I are, with our limitations, temptations, etc. Yet, he was God with all of God's infinite attributes. Jesus Christ is the Tue God; BUT, God was NOT Jesus Christ, for many scriptural and rational reasons by understanding who God is.

So, my dear brother Jesus in his humanity IS NOT the Father, yet in his deity, HE IS the I AM THAT I AM, the everlasting Father of all things.
« Last Edit: Fri May 11, 2018 - 04:15:06 by RB »

Offline AVZ

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #218 on: Fri May 11, 2018 - 05:50:11 »
Brother here is where you are wrong concerning the Godhead.... Jesus in his deity is the everlasting Father of all things, or Isaiah was one confused prophet, for he clearly declared the Son that was to be given was ALSO the everlasting Father.

Fish is 100% correct.
The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all individual distinct persons.
However in their thoughts, actions, mindset, goals, wishes, desires and spirit they are one.

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #218 on: Fri May 11, 2018 - 05:50:11 »

Offline RB

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #219 on: Fri May 11, 2018 - 06:04:58 »
Fish is 100% correct.
The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all individual distinct persons.


However in their thoughts, actions, mindset, goals, wishes, desires and spirit they are one.
Brother, you prove not one thing with what you posted, prove it with the scriptures your opinions do not count. You're better than that.
« Last Edit: Fri May 11, 2018 - 11:07:20 by RB »

Offline BTR

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #220 on: Fri May 11, 2018 - 07:48:54 »
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.

“Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
  -Jhn.8:42,43


“But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish—the very works that I do—testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me.

And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

“You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
  -Jhn.5:36-38


"I proceeded forth and have come from God"  Now if Jesus is God this statement would be false.

"I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me."  Now if Jesus is God this statement would also be false.


for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish—the very works that I do—testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me."

Now according to some, this really says; ' the works that I have given myself to accomplish -the very works that I do - testify about me, that I have sent myself.'

And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me."  And according to some this really says; 'and I who sent myself, I have testified that I have sent myself.'

And this; "You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form"  He is speaking to them with his audible voice and standing in front of them in his visible form, so with this statement if he is God he would be lying .

You do not have my word abiding in you, for you do not believe me whom I sent. According to some this is what it "really" says.

I can't help but see that truly the god of this world has indeed brainwashed and blinded people.

“You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent."  I believe Him.
« Last Edit: Fri May 11, 2018 - 07:56:34 by BTR »

Offline Alan

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #221 on: Fri May 11, 2018 - 08:03:39 »
Kenneth---

You keep repeating that the Son is not the Father. I agree completely. The SON and the FATHER are different persons in the Trinity. The HOLY SPIRIT is the third person. That is why the seraphim say "HOLY HOLY HOLY is the Lord God Almighty". They don't say "God's"---they say "GOD". Three Persons in ONE God.

The SON who is the WORD came forth from God and became flesh. He was GOD in the flesh--- the God-man--- Son of God and Son of Man. You just simply do not understand Kenneth. You are trying to define God using human logic just as the JW's do.


So to whom and why did Jesus pray if He was God in the spirit rather than an entirely unique individual?


If there were two of me that shared one mind and one spirit it would seem highly illogical to make petitions to myself.  ???

Offline 4WD

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #222 on: Fri May 11, 2018 - 08:19:28 »
We read  "Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh"(Gen 2:24).  Now if anyone has even a hint to what that means, then they should have no problem with the Trinity of God as three in one. The problem here seems to me not to be any comprehension of the meaning of Trinity; rather the problem here is that there some who would deny the divinity and deity of Christ.  And that clearly is blasphemous.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #223 on: Fri May 11, 2018 - 09:59:39 »
Quote
Gen. 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.


h259. dechad, ekh-awd´; a numeral from 258; properly, united, i.e. one; or (as an ordinal) first:—a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together,

g258. achad, aw-khad´; perhaps a primitive root; to unify, i.e. (figuratively) collect (one’s thoughts):—go one way or other.

Gen. 2:22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man,
        made he a WOMAN, and brought her unto the man.
Gen. 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh:
         she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Gen. 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother,
        and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Gen. 2:25 And they were BOTH naked,
        the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

The ONE GOD the Father and the MAN Jesus Christ were ONE which means that the Son spoke only what Came from His Father and Ours.

John and others wrote to HONOR GOD by teaching that HE has His own Mind, Wisdom, Spirit, Word from all eternity. That is the historical and Biblical trinity.

God GAVE JESUS OF NAZARETH the Power to make visible and audible ALL of the descriptors of God's power. God IS light does not mean that he is a candle.  Jesus was given the SOLE power to be a REFLECTOR of the Light of the Glory of God..

We, too, share in the GODHEAD or "divine nature and attributes" IF we have been baptized to be CLOTHED with Christ.
We participate in DIVINITY which does not equate to BEING God but of the PROPENSITY to obey God's commandments.

You believe what ALL theologians teach you and I know of no one who  doesn't believe that Godhead means a THREE HEADED GOD all joined at the ONE NECK. Shame!




Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #224 on: Fri May 11, 2018 - 10:09:19 »
The SON bears the FATHER'S NAME. Thousands of people bore a form of JAH and Jesus and Emmanuel.


Offline fish153

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #225 on: Fri May 11, 2018 - 10:42:33 »
Red----

"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began". (John 17:5)

You believe in "modalism" and it is unbiblical. The verse above shows that The Son of God existed before the world was created.

BTR and Kenneth have both been saturated with verses proving the opposite of what they believe so I am finished responding to either of them.

I am a bit surprised at you believing what you do Red--but that's your prerogative.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #226 on: Fri May 11, 2018 - 10:51:09 »
Before using Adam and Eve as a comparison of God's nature, it would be wise to know ALL ABOUT EVE.  In many, many documents Eve or Evah is the MEDIATRIX in feminists theology and IN A CHURCH NEAR YOU.  Give Paul credit for not living in the POST-LITERATE era.

Jesus said that TRUTH had been hidden in parables from the foundation of the world

Paul uses Eve as the example of churches or WHOLLY SEDUCED and giving birth to THAT WICKED ONE.  The LXX uses ZOE who is identified as the "beast and female instructing principle.

http://www.piney.com/Dochypostas.html

Then the female spiritual principle came in the snake, the instructor; and it taught them, saying, "What did he say to you? Was it, 'From every tree in the garden shall you eat; yet - from the tree of recognizing good and evil do not eat'?"

The carnal woman said, "Not only did he say 'Do not eat', but even 'Do not touch it; for the day you eat from it, with death you are going to die.'"

And the snake, the instructor, said, "With death you shall not die; for it was out of jealousy that he said this to you. Rather your eyes shall open and you shall come to be like gods, recognizing evil and good."

And the female instructing principle was taken away from the snake, and she left it behind, merely a thing of the earth.


https://www.google.com/search?q=site:piney.com+zoe+beast+female+instructing+principle&client=googlet&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=D2snAznIoOmwSM%253A%252CtYZaobki4gy1CM%252C_&usg=__2GlrDOYCFLiRTqITdx-L7S2br2k%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjftp3z__3aAhWQnFkKHdUQBSwQ9QEILzAB#imgrc=D2snAznIoOmwSM:

Moses wrote about EVE After the people had fallen back into idolatry at Mount Sinai and sentenced to captivity and death back in Assyria and Babylon.

The WOMEN parses to Venus and Vires or Venom.  Theophilus the first after John to CORRECT the Jewish-Greek views intending to discredit the Man Jesus whom GOD certified to be His only Spokesman.  They said that Jesus was really their JEHOVAH IN THE FLESH and still the God of the Jews with the same OLD COVENANT being the NEW COVENANT only to Jews

http://www.piney.com/Theophilus.Autolycus.II.html

This Eve, on account of her having been in the beginning deceived by the serpent, and become the author of sin, the wicked demon, who also is called Satan, who then spoke to her through the serpent, and who works even to this day in those men that are possessed by him, invokes as Eve.58 And he is called "demon" and "dragon," on account of his revolting from God. For at first he was an angel. And concerning his history there is a great deal to be said; wherefore I at present omit the relation of it, for I have also given an account of him in another place.


Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #227 on: Fri May 11, 2018 - 11:09:03 »
Jesus was sent to SEEK AND SAVE a tiny, little flock of LOST SPIRITS. They are not OF the World, Kosmos, Ecumenical or the kingdom of the devil.  That kosmos was ruled by the Devil as the KOSMOSKRATER.

Jesus said that He was not OF the world and His flock are easily identified: When they speak the WORD just as Jesus Spoke only God's Word they will be hated and despised.

Heb. 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them,
         and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
1Pet. 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence,
        even to them which stumble at the WORD, being DISOBEDIENT:
        whereunto also they were appointed.
1Pet. 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims,
         abstain from FLESHLY lusts, which war against the SOUL;

The DUST people or Aborigines who do not have the INBREATHED SOUL

Eccl. 12:7 Then shall the DUST return to the EARTH as it was:
       and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it

THE MARK OF THOSE ABLE TO HEAR THE ELECTION OR INVITATION IS ABSOLUTE.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his WORD were BAPTIZED:
         and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Col. 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
         and hath TRANSLATED us into the kingdom of HIS DEAR SON

ANOTHER ABSOLUTE MARK:

That kingdom does not come with OBSERVATION meaning religious observations devoted to SOUND AND FURY.  As one of my old temple robbers boasted a SERVICE OF SHOCK AND AWE.

Offline fish153

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #228 on: Fri May 11, 2018 - 14:01:23 »
Red----

Below I posted this verse:

"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began". (John 17:5)

I believe it is very good to go back and read the story of Abraham and Isaac for in this God was giving a preview of what He would do in
the future. Even telling Abraham that God knew now that Abraham loved him because he did not withold his son. and was actually willing
to sacrifice him.

The whole purpose of John 1:1 is to teach us that God is more than one person. "the Word was with God, and the Word was God".  God
does not CHANGE.

 "But about the Son HE says,

Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
    a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
 therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
 by anointing you with the oil of joy. (Hebrews 1:8,9)

This is another example in Scripture showing us that God is with God. Our finite
mnds do not accept this concept. When we, with our logic think of a Trinity we
may see a 3 headed being (as the JW's have described the Trinity)---
but the Trinity cannot be explained with human logic. It would take an infinite
mind to understand it.

You are attempting to use human logic Red instead of just believing the Scripture.  Read Hebrews 1:8,9 slowly and carefully.
« Last Edit: Fri May 11, 2018 - 14:03:57 by fish153 »

Offline soterion

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #229 on: Fri May 11, 2018 - 14:52:04 »

The whole purpose of John 1:1 is to teach us that God is more than one person. "the Word was with God, and the Word was God".  God
does not CHANGE.


I'll just be nitpicky here. I think you made a serious overstatement in that quote. While we can learn that Jesus is God and Creator in John 1:1, John 20:31b tells us that everything written in the book has as its whole purpose...

"...that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name."


Quote

It would take an infinite
mind to understand it.


I think of it as a worm trying to understand the nature of a human.

Offline BTR

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #230 on: Fri May 11, 2018 - 16:03:13 »
Quote: "But about the Son HE says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
    a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
 therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
 by anointing you with the oil of joy. (Hebrews 1:8,9)

"This is another example in Scripture showing us that God is with God. Our finite
mnds do not accept this concept. When we, with our logic think of a Trinity we
may see a 3 headed being (as the JW's have described the Trinity)---
but the Trinity cannot be explained with human logic. It would take an infinite
mind to understand it.

You are attempting to use human logic Red instead of just believing the Scripture.  Read Hebrews 1:8,9 slowly and carefully."




So in Fish's interpretation we have 'Gods God made God superior to Gods peers because God loved righteousness and hated wickedness.  Wow.

This is also a quote from Psa. 45 and its about Solomon, so using fish logic Solomon is also God, now the three faced god has four faces. Oh what a tangled web. And wait, David also sat on Gods throne so now you have a five faced god.

1Ch 29:23
Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.


The truth of the matter is its Gods throne in Hebrews, the throne of God that Jesus His Son is sitting in.

Rev 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.


God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
-Heb. 1:1-6


Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #231 on: Fri May 11, 2018 - 16:10:59 »
I am quite certain that a WORM in the slow group would understand that a WORD is what's written on the book paper he is trying to eat.  Ask the next three year old to show you a WORD.

Jesus sat on DAVID'S THRONE  and it was not forever: when Jesus returns He will hand over the world's thrones including His SPERM SOURCE DAVID to God.

God sent HIS ARM OR RIGHT HAND so that Jesus now sits on the RIGHT SIDE in heaven.  Probably not a chair.
« Last Edit: Fri May 11, 2018 - 16:13:40 by Kenneth Sublett »

Offline fish153

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #232 on: Fri May 11, 2018 - 16:46:07 »
soterion----

Thanks----I would have top agree with both statements.  You are correct, John 20:31 explains why the Gospel was written.  I would have to agree totally----trying to
understand the Trinity is like a worm trying to understand the nature of a human.  ::smile::

As for the two heretics below I would simply state that Hebrews 1 is explaining the SON, not Solomon.  A good way of looking at it is that God (despite man's horrible
rebellion) actually saved the best for last.  Imagine that:  God is even MORE gracious to humanity after 4000 years of hatred and revolt.  So after all the prophets have
been sent---after God has spoken through angels--and after man rejected them--He sent HIS OWN SON to us. What an amazingly Gracious God!!

Hebrews 1 is explaining to us WHY Christ cannot be a created being. But instead of listening and believing the Word these heretics continue their assault on the DEITY
OF JESUS CHRIST
.   You should take your arguments to the Non-Traditional Theology threads---because Traditional Christianity has as a MAIN TENET the DIVINITY OF JESUS
CHRIST
,.  That is why you will find books like "THE KINGDOM OF THE CULTS" written by Traditional Christians who recognize the Jehovah's Witnesses and other groups that
state that Jesus is not God are HERETICS.
« Last Edit: Fri May 11, 2018 - 16:49:11 by fish153 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #233 on: Fri May 11, 2018 - 17:26:57 »
CHRISTIANITY consists of what JESUS CHRIST commanded to be TAUGHT and OBSERVED.  He said of those who claimed that He WANTED TO BE God;
YOU BLASPHEME BECAUSE I SAID THAT I WAS THE SON OF GOD.

DIVINITY does not make anyone GOD: Divinity is the impulse to obey the Will of God.

Rev. 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;
       These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true WITNESS,
        the beginning of the creation of God;

Rev. 1:5 And from Jesus Christ,
        who is the faithful witness,
        and the first begotten of the dead,
        and the prince of the kings of the earth.
        Unto him that loved us,
        and washed us from our sins in HIS OWN BLOOD

BAD VIBES when your god can be murdered and shed HIS BLOOD.
« Last Edit: Fri May 11, 2018 - 17:34:22 by Kenneth Sublett »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #234 on: Fri May 11, 2018 - 17:55:59 »
A THING PROPHESIED BY GOD CANNOT EXIST UNTIL THAT PROPHECY IS FULFILLED.
A Church of Christ is BUILT UPON or EDUCATED by the Prophets and Apostles.
Jesus made these prophecies MORE PERFECT which prevents further interpretation

Notice that Jesus SPOKE the WORD so we doubt that Jesus SPOKE A GOD!!!!

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them,
      These are the WORDS which I SPAKE unto you,
      while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled,
      CONCERNING ME
Rom. 1:2 (Which he had PROMISED afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
Rom. 1:3 Concerning HIS SON Jesus Christ our Lord,
        which was MADE of the seed of David according to the FLESH;
Rom. 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power,
        according to the spirit of holiness,
        by the resurrection from the dead:
Rom. 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship,
        for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Rom. 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
Rom. 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
        Grace to you and peace from God our Father,
        AND
        the Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom. 1:8 First, I thank
        my God
        THROUGH
        Jesus Christ for you all,
        That your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
Rom. 1:9 For God is my witness,
        whom I serve with MY SPIRIT
        in the gospel of HIS SON, that without ceasing
        I make mention of you always in my prayers;


IT IS FULFILLED PROPHECY IN BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS WHEN PEOPLE DENY ALL SCRIPTURE

Offline RB

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #235 on: Sat May 12, 2018 - 04:26:36 »
Red----Below I posted this verse:

"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began". (John 17:5)
You did and have done so before, and I will give the same answer as before. My brother, this scripture speaks of the Godhead being ONE in their divine nature. The Word in the beginning which was God manifest himself in the flesh as the Word joined himself to the tabernacle of the Son of God. The Godhead is ONE GOD in their divine nature, not two, three, etc.
Quote from: Jesus
John 10:30-33~I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
The Jews understood that when Jesus said that he and the Father are ONE that meant that he was God~which Jesus meant that he and the Father are ONE in their divine nature, the ONLY way they could be one. Jesus was God in his Divinity~ the Son of God in his humanity, and NOT equal to God, and neither was God Jesus. The scriptures support these truths so clearly~we do not have to speculate as to who Jesus was, and if he was God or not. Jesus was BOTH man and God in one complex person.
Quote from: Fish153 Reply #228 on: Yesterday at 14:01:23
"But about the Son HE says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
    a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
 therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
 by anointing you with the oil of joy. (Hebrews 1:8,9)

You are attempting to use human logic Red instead of just believing the Scripture.  Read Hebrews 1:8,9 slowly and carefully.
Fish, this is easily understood by dividing properly Jesus' complex nature. In Jesus' divine nature he is GOD, period, thereby the everlasting Father of all thing, creator of heaven and earth, the I'AM THAT I'AM. I quoted Isaiah 9:6 above, yet no comments from you or anyone else. What Isaiah said of the son given, can ONLY be true of Jesus' Divine nature~ NOT of his humanity. We read and THEN divide scripture properly, or else we will be shamed.
Quote from: Fish153 Reply #228 on: Yesterday at 14:01:23
Read Hebrews 1:8,9 slowly and carefully.
I'm sure you will read them carefully~ I ask that you read them and give them the biblical SENSE that will flow with all scriptures.~that also will make sense.

The eternal Sonship doctrine is discredited in so many ways. Example: I will ask you to answer this: Can true Divinity be deprived or propagated? The very thought of this in a positive way is blasphemy against the God of the holy scriptures.  What is real Divinity of the Highest? The following attributes have ever been conceived as essential to it: Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience,  Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind.

The answer to that questions is NO!  So how can one believe in eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ?  A Sonship relationship that was before the biblical testimony of Luke 1:11-35.  I must stand upon God's own testimony of the conception of the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of Man.

There's more: Can there be true Divinity where any of these attributes are wanting?  Surely not.

And we ask~"How can eternal generation of the Son of God be accepted as biblical truth, and for those still holding such doctrine still contend that Jesus Christ is self-existence and independent"?  We can prove that this is an impossibility and a contradiction of terms used in the eternal Sonship defense.

Those that hold to the incarnate Sonship and reject the eternal Sonship are the only ones that can explain and make sense that Jesus Christ is the Everlasting Father of all things~the I AM THAT I AM. We contend that Jesus Christ the Son of God possessed real Divinity that was underived in any sense. There is no possible medium.  Either it is so, or not so.  We Know that Jesus Christ was God manifested in flesh before Jews and Gentiles, and that he preached unto both, and both rejected him, and devils trembled before, for they knew him.

If we speak of Jesus Christ being the eternal Son of God, then we must be able to comprehensibly define our terms used, or confess that we are using terms that teach doctrines against the Son of God, of which the eternal Sonship position does, for no man living can comprehensibly define the eternal Sonship position, without making Jesus a begotten god. It can not be done.

The sum of this point is this: Those that use terms, such as eternal Sonship, eternal generation, in relation to God or Christ, ought at least be able and willing to tell their own meaning in use of those terms, or not use them.  Fair enough?  I know so. DO you care to try, if not, then WHY use them?

When stripped of all artificial verbiage, the naked question returns: Is Jesus Christ absolutely, eternally independently, underiverdly, the very Supreme and eternal God, that the word of God declares him to be?   

We say, yes he is!  That is why we must reject eternal generation in any way presented to us by men who profess to be wise.  I would like to add more reasons why I know that the eternal Sonship of Jesus is against the scriptures.

Later.....RB
« Last Edit: Sat May 12, 2018 - 04:30:25 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #236 on: Sat May 12, 2018 - 05:43:54 »
DIVINITY does not make anyone GOD: Divinity is the impulse to obey the Will of God.
Wouldn't you know it?  Sublett thinks he is divine.
Quote from: Sublett
BAD VIBES when your god can be murdered and shed HIS BLOOD.
It would have been had He not been raised from the dead, ascended to heaven from whence he came and seated at the right hand of God, the Father.

Sublett you continue digging yourself further and further into the pit of heresy.

Offline RB

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #237 on: Sat May 12, 2018 - 05:56:39 »
Wouldn't you know it?  Sublett thinks he is divine.It would have been had He not been raised from the dead, ascended to heaven from whence he came and seated at the right hand of God, the Father.

Sublett you continue digging yourself further and further into the pit of heresy.


It's awful, the worst I have ever heard. He's "willingly" ignorant! 2nd Peter 3:5 The worst of all deceptions.  What's so sad, he's an old man soon to meet Jesus Christ, the true God, in whose hand is the power of hell and of death~he has the keys. Revelation 1:18

Offline 4WD

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #238 on: Sat May 12, 2018 - 06:19:08 »
The Godhead is ONE GOD in their divine nature, not two, three, etc.
And yet three separate spiritual beings.  God is Spirit, preincarnate Jesus is Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is Spirit.  Three yet one.  The problem is that we don't even know what a spiritual being is.  We really have no way to even imagine what that is.  We can really only think in terms of physical beings.
Quote from: RB
Jesus was BOTH man and God in one complex person.  Fish, this is easily understood by dividing properly Jesus' complex nature.
But it is not easily understood at all. As I just noted, we can't even comprehend the concept of a spiritual being.  We simply have nothing to relate it to.  We are physical beings in a physical universe and that is all we really know.  We really have no real cognizance or grasp of even our own spirits, let alone those of God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.



Offline RB

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #239 on: Sat May 12, 2018 - 06:21:19 »
My dear brother fish, let us continue. Please consider: The Eternal Sonship is a dogma that is discredited logically by self-contradiction.   To contend that Jesus was eternally begotten is a manifest contradiction of term.  We ask: can an object begin and not begun?  No.  The saying within itself is most absurd.  Why do not people consider this, and understand it?  Acts 28:25-27 is the answer.

Brother, I ask you to please consider carefully:  "Eternity is that which has no beginning, nor stands in reference to time~Son supposes time, generation, and father; time is also antedent to such generation~therefore, the conjunction of the two terms: Son and eternity~is absolutely impossible as they imply different and opposite ideal.  Words must have meaning, or else, how can we communicate with each other on a level where we can understand each other?  I understand eternity and I also understand the word son, and so do my readers, and we should know how to use each word properly, without confusing the meaning of either."

I believe I read this quote behind Adam Clarke many years ago and it got me THINKING. I found this for you to consider:
Quote
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/53f33653e4b04507993d2999/t/5443303de4b0cf00d1a4991a/1413689405944/ETERNAL+SONSHIP+OF+CHRIST+-+Adam+Clarke%27s+Commentary.pdf
While I do not support all that this man of God taught, he without question was correct on this. He was the main one that God used to convert me on this subject. I was taught just as you believe now when I first came to Christ.

Consider: If Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God, or if he was eternally begotten/generated, according to his Divine nature, then he CANNOT be the Eternal God that inhabiteth eternity. 

The reason why is this: "son" implies a father; and father in reference to a son, precedency in time, if not in nature as well. Father and son imply the ideal of generation~generation implies a time, in which it was effected, and time also antecedent to such generation. 

We know that Jesus Christ was both God that inhabiteth eternity and the Son of God that had a beginning when he was conceived by the Holy Ghost! 

The eternal Sonship position is against the witness of God himself concerning his Son. 

The incarnate Sonship protect the Deity of the Son of God, and confesses that he is both the I am that I am, and the Son of God and the Son of man. 

I have more to come to prove that Jesus was not a Son before Genesis 1:1.  Why I am preparing more reasons, one quick question for you: "Who was Jesus' eternal mother?" I have heard many discombobulated expressions trying to proved the eternal Sonship doctrine, by men whom I have respect toward, that one wonders~ "why Sir, do you not just stay with the scriptures and save yourself the shame of showing your ignorance of spiritual things". 

Jesus became the Son of God the same time he became the Son of man.  We have the word of God to support that witness that we just gave.  Yet, man's witness goes against God's testimony concerning his Son.  As for me and my house, we will believe God's own testimony over man's.

Can you tell me based on what you believe....."What part of Jesus Christ was derived from God?"

Surely not his Divine Nature! if One God can be derived, why not many? Many Mighty Gods and Everlasting Fathers, (there not many, but ONE, revealed to us as three, according to their work in the affairs of creation, and the salvation of the elect seed of Jesus Christ and the order in which this came to pass) many first Causes, and last End of all things!  The Eternal Spirit of God is not capable of diminution or divisibility, that is an impossibility. This would be going against what his word teaches us, that we should have no other gods before Him.

Pagans believed in a power of propagation of their gods, we as Bible Christians do not.  The bible demands belief in nothing of this kind, relative to our heavenly Father.

Later.....RB
« Last Edit: Sat May 12, 2018 - 06:27:47 by RB »

Offline BTR

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #240 on: Sat May 12, 2018 - 06:29:17 »
Wouldn't you know it?  Sublett thinks he is divine.

It's awful, the worst I have ever heard. He's "willingly" ignorant! 2nd Peter 3:5 The worst of all deceptions.  What's so sad, he's an old man soon to meet Jesus Christ, the true God, in whose hand is the power of hell and of death~he has the keys. Revelation 1:18

"di·vine
[dəˈvīn]

ADJECTIVE
of, from, or like God or a god.

"heroes with divine powers" · "paintings of shipwrecks being prevented by divine intervention"

synonyms: godly · godlike · angelic · seraphic · saintly · beatific · spiritual · heavenly · celestial · holy · empyrean · deiform · deific
antonyms: mortal

devoted to God; sacred.
"divine liturgy"
synonyms: religious · holy · sacred · sanctified · consecrated · blessed · devotional · devoted to God · dedicated to God


informal
excellent; delightful.
"he had the most divine smile" · "that succulent clementine tasted divine"
synonyms: lovely · handsome · beautiful · good-looking · prepossessing · charming · delightful · appealing · engaging · winsome · ravishing · gorgeous · bewitching · beguiling · wonderful · glorious · marvelous · excellent · superlative · perfect · delicious · mouthwatering · delectable · bonny · heavenly · sublime · dreamy · sensational · knockout · stunning · super · supercalifragilisticexpialidocious · great · tasty · fanciable · easy on the eye · a sight for sore eyes · as nice as pie · brilliant · brill · smashing · cute · beaut · beauteous · taking · comely · fair · sightly
antonyms: mundane · dreadful

NOUN
divines (plural noun)
dated
a cleric or theologian.
synonyms: theologian · clergyman · member of the clergy · churchman · churchwoman · cleric · ecclesiastic · man of the cloth · man of God · holy man · holy woman · preacher · priest · kirkman · reverend · Holy Joe · sky pilot · josser
providence or God."


"quote; Jesus Christ, the true God"

And this confession does not line up with scripture. 

Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
-Mat. 16:16,17
« Last Edit: Sat May 12, 2018 - 06:32:32 by BTR »

Offline RB

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #241 on: Sat May 12, 2018 - 07:34:27 »
And this confession does not line up with scripture. 

Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
-Mat. 16:16,17

Of course it lines up with God's testimony. Jesus was BOTH the Son of God and God in one body! You have been given scriptures over and over again.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #242 on: Sat May 12, 2018 - 08:31:24 »
Augustine Faith and Creed:


Offline BTR

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #243 on: Sat May 12, 2018 - 13:58:03 »


And this confession does not line up with scripture. 

"quote; Jesus Christ, the true God"


Of course it lines up with God's testimony. Jesus was BOTH the Son of God and God in one body! You have been given scriptures over and over again.

And I have replied that you are misunderstanding and or misapplying them, over and over again.

No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Apparently John didn't think Jesus was God. I believe you said 'Jesus is the only God we will ever see'.
John seen Jesus and he says that no man has seen God at any time. But you say Jesus is God.

Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
-1Jhn.4:12-15
« Last Edit: Sat May 12, 2018 - 14:08:47 by BTR »

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #244 on: Sat May 12, 2018 - 20:20:01 »
Red----

"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began". (John 17:5)

You believe in "modalism" and it is unbiblical. The verse above shows that The Son of God existed before the world was created.

BTR and Kenneth have both been saturated with verses proving the opposite of what they believe so I am finished responding to either of them.

I am a bit surprised at you believing what you do Red--but that's your prerogative.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Comment: Christ was also slain from the foundation of the earth.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven.

Comment: Christ  had also already ascended into heaven after he was crucified before he was here on earth.

 

     
anything