Red----Below I posted this verse:
"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began". (John 17:5)
You did and have done so before, and I will give the same answer as before. My brother, this scripture speaks of the Godhead being ONE in their divine nature
. The Word in the beginning which was God
manifest himself in the flesh as the Word joined himself to the tabernacle of the Son of God. The Godhead is ONE GOD in their divine nature
, not two, three, etc.
John 10:30-33~I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
The Jews understood that when Jesus said that he and the Father are ONE that meant that he was God~which Jesus meant that he and the Father are ONE in their divine nature
, the ONLY way they could be one. Jesus was God in his Divinity~ the Son of God in his humanity, and NOT equal to God, and neither was God Jesus. The scriptures support these truths so clearly~we do not have to speculate as to who Jesus was, and if he was God or not. Jesus was BOTH man and God in one complex person.
"But about the Son HE says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy. (Hebrews 1:8,9)
You are attempting to use human logic Red instead of just believing the Scripture. Read Hebrews 1:8,9 slowly and carefully.
Fish, this is easily understood by dividing properly Jesus' complex nature. In Jesus' divine nature he is GOD, period, thereby the everlasting Father of all thing, creator of heaven and earth, the I'AM THAT I'AM. I quoted Isaiah 9:6 above, yet no comments from you or anyone else. What Isaiah said of the son given, can ONLY be true of Jesus' Divine nature~ NOT of his humanity. We read and THEN divide scripture properly, or else we will be shamed.
Read Hebrews 1:8,9 slowly and carefully.
I'm sure you will read them carefully~ I ask that you read them and give them the biblical SENSE that will flow with all scriptures.~that also will make sense.
The eternal Sonship doctrine is discredited in so many ways. Example
: I will ask you to answer this: Can true Divinity be deprived or propagated? The very thought of this in a positive way is blasphemy against the God of the holy scriptures. What is real Divinity of the Highest? The following attributes have ever been conceived as essential to it: Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind.
The answer to that questions is NO! So how can one believe in eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ
? A Sonship relationship that was before the biblical testimony of Luke 1:11-35. I must stand upon God's own testimony of the conception of the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of Man.
There's more: Can there be true Divinity where any of these attributes are wanting? Surely not.
And we ask~"How can eternal generation of the Son of God be accepted as biblical truth, and for those still holding such doctrine still contend that Jesus Christ is self-existence and independent"? We can prove that this is an impossibility and a contradiction of terms used in the eternal Sonship defense.
Those that hold to the incarnate Sonship and reject the eternal Sonship are the only ones that can explain and make sense that Jesus Christ is the Everlasting Father of all things~the I AM THAT I AM. We contend that Jesus Christ the Son of God possessed real Divinity that was underived in any sense
. There is no possible medium. Either it is so, or not so. We Know that Jesus Christ was God manifested in flesh before Jews and Gentiles, and that he preached unto both, and both rejected him, and devils trembled before, for they knew him.
If we speak of Jesus Christ being the eternal Son of God, then we must be able to comprehensibly define our terms used, or confess that we are using terms that teach doctrines against the Son of God, of which the eternal Sonship position does, for no man living can comprehensibly define the eternal Sonship position, without
making Jesus a begotten god. It can not be done
The sum of this point is this: Those that use terms, such as eternal Sonship, eternal generation, in relation to God or Christ, ought at least be able and willing to tell their own meaning in use of those terms, or not use them. Fair enough? I know so. DO you care to try, if not, then WHY use them?
When stripped of all artificial verbiage, the naked question returns: Is Jesus Christ absolutely, eternally independently, underiverdly, the very Supreme and eternal God, that the word of God declares him to be?
We say, yes he is! That is why we must reject eternal generation in any way presented to us by men who profess to be wise. I would like to add more reasons why I know that the eternal Sonship of Jesus is against the scriptures.