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Author Topic: How can Jesus Christ be God?  (Read 16098 times)

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Offline Truthcomber

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #245 on: Sat May 12, 2018 - 20:49:38 »
Red----

Below I posted this verse:

"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began". (John 17:5)

I believe it is very good to go back and read the story of Abraham and Isaac for in this God was giving a preview of what He would do in
the future. Even telling Abraham that God knew now that Abraham loved him because he did not withold his son. and was actually willing
to sacrifice him.

The whole purpose of John 1:1 is to teach us that God is more than one person. "the Word was with God, and the Word was God".  God
does not CHANGE.

 "But about the Son HE says,

Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
    a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
 therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
 by anointing you with the oil of joy. (Hebrews 1:8,9)

This is another example in Scripture showing us that God is with God. Our finite
mnds do not accept this concept. When we, with our logic think of a Trinity we
may see a 3 headed being (as the JW's have described the Trinity)---
but the Trinity cannot be explained with human logic. It would take an infinite
mind to understand it.

You are attempting to use human logic Red instead of just believing the Scripture.  Read Hebrews 1:8,9 slowly and carefully.


My Response:

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/featured/hebrews-1-8

“3. The context must determine whether Christ is being referred to as the Supreme Being or just a man with great authority, so it must be read carefully.  In this case, however, one need not read far to find that Christ, called “God,” himself has a “God.”  The very next verse, Hebrews 1:9, says, “therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions.”  Thus, Christ cannot be the supreme God, because the supreme God does not have a God. Furthermore, Christ’s God “set” him above others and “anointed” him.  This makes it abundantly clear that the use of theos here in Hebrews is not referring to Christ being the supreme God, but rather a man with great authority under another God.

Any study of the words for “God” in both Hebrew and Greek will show that they were applied to people as well as to God. This is strange to English-speaking people because we use “God” in reference only to the true God, but both Hebrew and Greek used “God” of God, great men, other gods, angels and divine beings.  It is the context that determines whether “God” or a great person is being referred to.  This is actually a cause of occasional disagreement between translators, and they sometimes argue about whether “GOD” refers to God, the Father, or to a powerful person or representative of God.  One example of this occurs in Exodus 21:6, which instructs a master whose servant wishes to serve him for life to bring the servant “to Elohim.””

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #245 on: Sat May 12, 2018 - 20:49:38 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #246 on: Sat May 12, 2018 - 22:54:43 »
Heb. 1:4  Being made so much BETTER than the angels,
        as he hath by INHERITANCE obtained a more excellent name than they.

Why would God say that He (god) was better than angels or that HE inherited anything?

Heb. 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time,
        Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?            
        And again, I will be TO HIM a Father, and he shall be TO ME A Son?

Careless souls This does not say that he was saying that the ANGELS was His son!!

Heb. 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world,
        he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb. 1:7 And of the angels he saith,
          Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

He did not say But OF the son

Heb. 1:8 But UNTO [PRO or AD] the Son he saith,

Notice that God told His BEGOTTEN SON that the THRONE OF GOD was forever. God told the Son that God's Throne was for ever.  This is the same sentence structure as 1:5. He didn't tell the angels that THEY were His SONS and He didn't tell the Son that the SON'S Throne was for ever. The Son is not GOD.

Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:
         a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Jesus sat on DAVID'S throne and it was not forever but for the new world, Aion or MESSIANIC PERIOD.

All of this is to deny that GOD THE FATHER was complete within himself: He had His Spirit, Wisdom and Word WITHIN HIM

WHY would anyone say that the Father was imperfect within Himself. He needed another god person called the spirit to breathe for him. and neither had any ability with the Word god to articulate the COLLECTIVE thought?
« Last Edit: Sat May 12, 2018 - 22:57:59 by Kenneth Sublett »

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #246 on: Sat May 12, 2018 - 22:54:43 »

Offline RB

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #247 on: Sun May 13, 2018 - 05:18:07 »
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Comment: Christ was also slain from the foundation of the earth.
There are so many scriptures being quoted without any biblical sense giving to them, that leads to so much corruption of God's word that it is a shame and disgrace and a true mark of those who do not have truth, and would not know it if it hit them right between the eyes

It is wrong to say “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” from this text, for by comparison, we can see that this is confusing prepositional phrases.

Jesus was only foreordained to be slain before the foundation of the world, but we KNOW he was not truly slain until His incarnation and death on the cross (See Ist Peter 1:20).

The prepositional phrase “from the foundation of the world” modifies the verb “written,” rather than the noun phrase lamb slain. We know this by comparing the two texts and when the Lamb was truly slain. As far as God's purpose all was purposed and ordained by God before the foundation of the world according to his own will which he purposed IN himself.
Quote
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven.

Comment: Christ  had also already ascended into heaven after he was crucified before he was here on earth.
You are making absolutely no sense, and the reason why is you are void of truth.
Quote from: Truthcomber Reply #244 on: Yesterday at 20:20:01
Christ  had also already ascended into heaven after he was crucified before he was here on earth.
Sir, do you know how oxymoron your statement sounds? How in the world can you ascend BEFORE you were on the earth? Talking about being confused, you just raised it to a higher meaning.
Quote from: Jesus
John 3:13~"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
You only quoted half of this verse above, I quoted all of it and the reason being is that it exposes men like you who DENYS Christ's deity being God in his Divine nature. Listen carefully to what Jesus is truly saying (maybe you know and just refuse to accept it).
Quote
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
Question for you to answer~"How can Jesus say truthfully that he was ON earth and IN Heaven AT THE SAME TIME?" I know do you? In his humanity, as the Son of man, he lived in the flesh just as you and I do~YET, Jesus was MORE than a man, he ALSO was God in his divine nature that he possessed equally with his Father with all of the infinite attributes we understand God to have, which were mentioned yesterday in above post. You deny and reject that Jesus was a complex person....fully man, and fully God living in the Holy Tabernacle of Jesus of Nazareth. 

Jesus was (and still is) the ONLY man that could say that he was on earth and IN heaven AT the SAME TIME.

« Last Edit: Sun May 13, 2018 - 05:23:34 by RB »

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #247 on: Sun May 13, 2018 - 05:18:07 »

Offline BTR

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #248 on: Sun May 13, 2018 - 07:31:47 »
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

quote; Jesus was (and still is) the ONLY man that could say that he was on earth and IN heaven AT the SAME TIME.


You are both confused. I also am on earth and in heaven and so is everyone who is born again, as in context this is what Jesus is talking about.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
  -Jhn.3:3-13

At that point in time He was the only one.

And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. -Jhn. 8:23


“I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

“I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.

“They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
  -Jhn.17:14-16


Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights,
with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.
  -Jas.1:17
« Last Edit: Sun May 13, 2018 - 07:34:13 by BTR »

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #248 on: Sun May 13, 2018 - 07:31:47 »

Online 4WD

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #249 on: Sun May 13, 2018 - 07:37:20 »
You are both confused. I also am on earth and in heaven and so is everyone who is born again, as in context this is what Jesus is talking about.
The silliness just keeps on coming.  Being in the kingdom does not mean being in heaven.

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #249 on: Sun May 13, 2018 - 07:37:20 »



Offline BTR

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #250 on: Sun May 13, 2018 - 09:13:53 »
The silliness just keeps on coming.  Being in the kingdom does not mean being in heaven.

Sure it does.

“Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. -Mat.18:3

“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves,
nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
  -Mat.23:13


And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
  -Lk.17:20,21
« Last Edit: Sun May 13, 2018 - 09:18:23 by BTR »

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #250 on: Sun May 13, 2018 - 09:13:53 »

Offline soterion

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #251 on: Sun May 13, 2018 - 09:24:25 »
Sure it does.

“Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. -Mat.18:3

“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves,
nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
  -Mat.23:13


And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
  -Lk.17:20,21

Not that we are in heaven (yet), but heaven is in us. ::cool::

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #252 on: Sun May 13, 2018 - 09:28:26 »
First, let’s post the History


Fish Stated

« Reply #225 on: Fri May 11, 2018 - 10:42:33 »
Red----

"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began". (John 17:5)

You believe in "modalism" and it is unbiblical. The verse above shows that The Son of God existed before the world was created.

BTR and Kenneth have both been saturated with verses proving the opposite of what they believe so I am finished responding to either of them.

I am a bit surprised at you believing what you do Red--but that's your prerogative.





I responded to Fish:

« Reply #244 on: Yesterday at 20:20:01 »

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


Comment: Christ was also slain from the foundation of the earth.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven.

Comment: Christ  had also already ascended into heaven after he was crucified before he was here on earth.

Fish cannot state that Christ was in a glorified state before he was made and crucified first.



Red quoted me:

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Comment: Christ was also slain from the foundation of the earth.




Red Responded


Jesus was only foreordained to be slain before the foundation of the world, but we KNOW he was not truly slain until His incarnation and death on the cross (See Ist Peter 1:20).

The prepositional phrase “from the foundation of the world” modifies the verb “written,” rather than the noun phrase lamb slain. We know this by comparing the two texts and when the Lamb was truly slain. As far as God's purpose all was purposed and ordained by God before the foundation of the world according to his own will which he purposed IN himself.




My Response:

This part is absolutely true.



Red quoted me:

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven.

Comment: Christ had also already ascended into heaven after he was crucified before he was here on earth.



Red Responded:

You are making absolutely no sense, and the reason why is you are void of truth.



My Response:

You better look in the mirror.

You cannot say that Christ's crucifixion was preordained without saying that his resurrection and glorification was not also preordained.

 

Red had responded: As far as God's purpose all was purposed and ordained by God before the foundation of the world according to his own will which he purposed IN himself.



My Response: yes, but not only Christ’s crucifixion was preordained, but also his resurrection from the dead and his glorification after his ascension into heaven.


1 Cor 15:42 (NIV) So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
 
Romans 1:3a Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;…

Comment: Christ was a man that had a perishable body before he was resurrected from the dead and glorified. 


1 Cor 15:46
The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

Romans 1.3b… And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 

Comment: The Messiah had to become a natural man before he became a spiritual man.  He did not pre-exits as God Almighty..  Notice "just as we" in verse 49.  This is a comparison of Christ to us.  As Christ was born a man, died and was resurrected, and then glorified, so it is with the Church. 



Red Quoted me: 

Christ had also already ascended into heaven after he was crucified before he was here on earth.


Red responded:

Sir, do you know how oxymoron your statement sounds? How in the world can you ascend BEFORE you were on the earth? Talking about being confused, you just raised it to a higher meaning.

My Response:

Obviously I am not stating this literally. . . This also was preordained by God before the physical creation. 



Red stated:

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."



My Response:

You can See my post again, “Who and What is God? Page 4 post 126. Well, on the other hand don't, you do not understand.    But anyway, let me answer it here. 

Most commentators state that “even the Son of man which is in heaven ” is an added and thus unscriptural.

http://biblehub.com/john/3-13.htm

But let’s say that it is true as some commentators believe: “even the Son of man which is in heaven”. 


“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven

Christ was still here on earth before he had ascended into heaven. The "but he" seems to indicate that Christ had already ascended into heaven before he came down from heaven.  So either it had happen already in God’s time or it still was to happen.



“even the Son of man which is in heaven."

The same reasoning applies here.  Christ cannot be in heaven and here on earth at the same time.  So either it had happen already in God’s time or it still was to happen. 


It is pure, unadulterated, 100 proof nonsense to say that Christ is the Almighty God, who was eternal and glorified spirit, that became flesh, died, was resurrected and then glorified again. Christ was made in every way like us.  How can he be a GMO half man and half God.



It is not because Christ is God and man at the same time.   

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 




Offline BTR

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #253 on: Sun May 13, 2018 - 09:42:55 »
"The silliness just keeps on coming.  Being in the kingdom does not mean being in heaven."

"Sure it does.

“Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. -Mat.18:3

“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves,
nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.  -Mat.23:13


And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.  -Lk.17:20,21"

Not that we are in heaven (yet), but heaven is in us. ::cool::

Well this explains a lot.

"For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves,
nor do you allow those who are entering to go in."



I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. -Jhn.10:9


Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. -Rev.3:12
« Last Edit: Sun May 13, 2018 - 09:49:35 by BTR »

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #253 on: Sun May 13, 2018 - 09:42:55 »

Offline BTR

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #254 on: Sun May 13, 2018 - 11:44:00 »
Continuing,

Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? -1Jo 5:5


If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.

He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.

And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. -Jhn.5:9-12

“He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.  -Rev. 3:12

Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? -1Jo 5:5

Offline fish153

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #255 on: Wed May 16, 2018 - 14:01:09 »
Red said----

>>>>The reason why is this: "son" implies a father; and father in reference to a son, precedency in time, if not in nature as well. Father and son imply the ideal of generation~generation implies a time, in which it was effected, and time also antecedent to such generation.<<<

We have had this discussion before, and you are doing the same thing you did before.  You are using human finite understanding to define what a "son" is.  YES---to us finite,
human beings everthing has a beginning and an ending.  We understand "son" to refer to someone who was "generated" from another living being---and a grandson to be the son of that generated son, and so on.

But what you are doing once again Red is beginning with US rather than beginning with GOD.  So we need to ask are we patterned after God-----or does God need to be patterned according to what we understand?

I must remind you that God created TIME. He created the force (TIME) that MUST HAVE beginnings and endings.  Now, he patterned something ETERNAL into a FINITE IMAGE with beginnings and endings. God took His image (ETERNAL) and created man.  When we read Genesis it says "male and female" He created
MAN. The woman was "taken" from Man (she was not created separately, but was created FROM one of man's ribs).  And then the woman gave BIRTH and a son was TAKEN from her womb.  Thus the wife, and the son both CAME FROM Adam.  Thus the IMAGE of God was manifest.

I will state, and do believe this totally-----there is a FATHER, SON and HOLY SPIRIT from ETERNITYWE are PATTERNED after this image in the form of husband, wife and child.  However, we are subject to time, and to beginnings and endings, and that is how we understand things.  Our minds find it hard to grasp that GOD HAS JUST ALWAYS BEEN.  It is even harder for us to grasp THE SON HAS ALWAYS BEEN.  We immediately shout "NO!!  That can't be---a son has a beginning---the word "son" implies a starting point!!". And yes that is true if we are PATTERNING GOD ACCORDING TO OUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT 'SON' MEANS.

But if we realize and accept the fact that WE ARE PATTERNED after God it becomes far easier to accept that the SON HAS EXISTED FOREVER.  Your finite, human mind cannot accept this Red---that's all there is to it.  Mine can't either----but then I need to remember what I have said above. And then I see it clearly. I can then understand how "The Word was with God, and the Word was God".

PS--- I want to add that I am not implying that the Holy Spirit is female and that "wife" represents HIM.  I am stating that God PATTERNED his INFINITE IMAGE into FINITE BEINGS whom He designed to propagate.  God took the DIVINE BEING of LOVE----and created an IMAGE of that in created beings. He created something finite that would represent WHO HE IS as closely as possible without it being infinite.
« Last Edit: Wed May 16, 2018 - 14:14:58 by fish153 »

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #256 on: Wed May 16, 2018 - 16:13:32 »
fish,
The human aspect of Jesus had a beginning and an ending also.  What had no beginning and no ending was the pre-incarnate Jesus, however you wish to think of His pre-incarnate being.  Personally, I think, that given the fact that God is Spirit and the Holy Spirit is Spirit, then it follows that the pre- and post-incarnate Jesus is Spirit.  And in fact I believe that it was that pre-incarnate Spirit that took on the form of man (Heb 2:14).  It was that Spirit about whom Jesus said in His last breath on the Cross,  "Father, into your hands I commit my Spirit!" (Luke 23:46).

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #257 on: Wed May 16, 2018 - 16:28:24 »
Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.  -Heb.2:17

You guys dont see "be made" as created, or like us? 

Dont get me me wrong I totaly see all your points and truly understand the confusion. Its very much like when you buy a new car and now you see that same car everywhere you go.


Offline fish153

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #258 on: Wed May 16, 2018 - 18:22:27 »
BTR----

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." (1 John 3:8)

Yes----  Jesus was "made" like his brethren in all things.  "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:14)  "A body hast thou prepared for me". (Heb. 1).

What you are failing to see BTR is that Jesus was the "God-Man". He was both "Son of God" and"Son of Man", and he refers to Himself as both.  This is why He is the perfect Mediator between God and Man---because He is BOTH.   It is hard for me to understand how you cannot see this----it is clearly taught in Scripture.  That is why He could forgive sins on
earth (only God can forgive sins), and do the amazing miracles He did.  Can a "created being" (if Jesus was an angel or some other form of created person) take 5 loaves and 2 fishes
and feed 5000 people?  Think about it.  Jesus was clearly God and Man in one body.
« Last Edit: Wed May 16, 2018 - 18:25:30 by fish153 »

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #259 on: Wed May 16, 2018 - 18:29:30 »
Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.  -Heb.2:17

You guys dont see "be made" as created, or like us? 

Dont get me me wrong I totaly see all your points and truly understand the confusion. Its very much like when you buy a new car and now you see that same car everywhere you go.
You were not created.  You are the natural result of the fertilization of your mother's female reproductive cell, the gamete, by your father's sperm cell. There is nothing supernatural about that at all.  Your spirit on the other hand is a different story.  We have no real information about that except that God says that He has formed it in each of us. And it is in that spirit formed in each that we are each and every one in the image of God.

The human being, Jesus, was also the result of the fertilizatoin of his mother's female reproductive cell.  In His case that fertilization was the work of the Holy Spirit.  And that act was supernatural.  The result was not. The result was a fully human being.  His Spirit, unlike our spirits, was not formed by God; rather that Spirit was, I believe, the Pre-incarnate Spirit of the Lord and Savior, the second spiritual being of the Trinity.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #260 on: Wed May 16, 2018 - 19:40:33 »
God ALWAYS says that HE is the ONLY God and that HE was ALONE when He acted in our world.  God is never a WE or an US.  Genesis 1 Speaks of the Elohim who destroyed the world order.

ALL Spirits which Jesus was sent to seek and save.  Jesus of Nazareth did not preexist as a god person.

Eccl. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the SPIRIT shall return unto GOD who gave it.

John Knox warns, “the more fully the logic of pre-existence is allowed to work itself out in the story [of Jesus], the less important the [his] resurrection is bound to become.”

People cannot tolerate the idea that THE MAN JESUS could fulfill the Will of HIS FATHER and OURS. If Jesus was a SEMI-GOD then He, according to Alexander Campbell, deserves no special credit.  This is a MARK.

Luke claims Jesus had a normal human development. He says of Jesus’ childhood, “The Child continued to grow and become strong, increasing in wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him” (Luke 2.40). Notice that Luke also distinguishes the Child Jesus from God, which always indicates that Jesus was not God. Then Luke adds, “And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man” (v. 52). How could Jesus have increased in favor with God if he was God? William Barclay therefore states, “one of the most difficult of all ideas [is] the idea of the preexistence of Jesus.”

    Luke 2:39 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the LORD,
           They returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.
    Luke 2:40 And the CHILD grew, and waxed strong IN SPIRIT,
            filled with wisdom: and the GRACE of GOD was upon him.

When you see GOD and the Son of God the Logic is that the Son CANNOT BE God.

    This proves that the CHILD was not a preexisting god.

    Luke 2:41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.
    Luke 2:42 And when he was TWELVE YEARS OLD,
            they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.
    Luke 2:43 And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned,
            the CHILD JESUS tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.
   
Was God's Spirit TO IGNORANT to say that the INCARNATED CHILD grew.  Why would a God NEED to grouw and LEARN and develop HIS OWN SPIRIT.

God did not MAKE Jesus TO BE both Lord and Christ until He was thirty years old. The DIVINE PLAN was that the MAN Jesus of Nazareth grow up to the age of PRIESTHOOD as part of a long process for HIM to fulfill ALL of the prophecies CONCERNING ME.  Those OF TRUTH were Biblically ignorant or they would have KNOWN by the SIGNS that the END WAS NEAR.  The word INCARNATION is not a Bible Concept.  Jesus of Nazareth as God's ANOINTED HAD to be IN THE FLESH to certify prophecies.

One thing seems to rule out the actual preexistence of Jesus in this letter of Hebrews. For him to be Savior and High Priest, he had to be like us in every way except sin. The author of Hebrews explains concerning Jesus, “He had to be made like His brethren in all things, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest” (Hebrews 2.17). Again, this requires that Jesus did not literally preexist, since the rest of us humans did not. It thus seems that God created the world “through” Jesus simply by having him in mind.

MADE can include raising up, secure,

Those PROPHETS and their MAKING CERTAIN were recorded FOR OUR MEMORY and A Disciple of Christ CANNOT be spiritually educated by any of the rest of the Good, Bad and Ugly account of evil men'

« Last Edit: Wed May 16, 2018 - 19:49:27 by Kenneth Sublett »

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #261 on: Wed May 16, 2018 - 20:49:24 »
You were not created.  You are the natural result of the fertilization of your mother's female reproductive cell, the gamete, by your father's sperm cell. There is nothing supernatural about that at all.  Your spirit on the other hand is a different story.  We have no real information about that except that God says that He has formed it in each of us. And it is in that spirit formed in each that we are each and every one in the image of God.

The human being, Jesus, was also the result of the fertilizatoin of his mother's female reproductive cell.  In His case that fertilization was the work of the Holy Spirit.  And that act was supernatural.  The result was not. The result was a fully human being.  His Spirit, unlike our spirits, was not formed by God; rather that Spirit was, I believe, the Pre-incarnate Spirit of the Lord and Savior, the second spiritual being of the Trinity.

Yes, I realize our natural flesh is a result of two other humans reproducing and that there is nothing supernatural about it.   

"His Spirit, unlike our spirits, was not formed by God"  This statement I don't agree with. That would make him not like us in every way. I'm more perplexed on the fertilization of her reproductive cell.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #262 on: Wed May 16, 2018 - 21:10:52 »
Quote
I'm more perplexed on the fertilization of her reproductive cell.

The word "seed"

Rom. 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord,
       which was MADE [ginomai] of the SEED of David according to the FLESH;
Rom. 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power,
        according to the spirit of holiness,
        by the resurrection from the dead:
Rev. 1:5 And from Jesus Christ,
        who is the faithful witness,
        and the first begotten of the dead,
        and the prince of the kings of the earth.
Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in HIS OWN BLOOD

Scripture says that the MAN Jesus in the FLESH was neither Son, Lord nor Christ until God made Him TO BE.

g4690. sperma, sper´-mah; from 4687; something sown, i.e. seed (including the male “sperm”); by implication, offspring; specially, a remnant (figuratively, as if kept over for planting): — issue, seed.

If God Created Adam and breathed into him the breath (spirit) of life, why would it be strange that God preserved the sperm from Abraham, David etal.
.

Offline BTR

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #263 on: Wed May 16, 2018 - 21:11:06 »
BTR----

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." (1 John 3:8)

Yes----  Jesus was "made" like his brethren in all things.  "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:14)  "A body hast thou prepared for me". (Heb. 1).

What you are failing to see BTR is that Jesus was the "God-Man". He was both "Son of God" and"Son of Man", and he refers to Himself as both.  This is why He is the perfect Mediator between God and Man---because He is BOTH.   It is hard for me to understand how you cannot see this----it is clearly taught in Scripture.  That is why He could forgive sins on
earth (only God can forgive sins), and do the amazing miracles He did.  Can a "created being" (if Jesus was an angel or some other form of created person) take 5 loaves and 2 fishes
and feed 5000 people?  Think about it.  Jesus was clearly God and Man in one body.

The works were done by His Father, God through Him. He said His Father does the works. There are scriptural alternate explanations for all your points. We will have to just agree to disagree. I don't think there is any reason to insult each other. Ever wonder why non-trinitarians never burned trinitarians at the stake?

If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." -Jhn. 20:23

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #264 on: Wed May 16, 2018 - 21:23:30 »
The word "seed"

Rom. 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord,
       which was MADE [ginomai] of the SEED of David according to the FLESH;
Rom. 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power,
        according to the spirit of holiness,
        by the resurrection from the dead:
Rev. 1:5 And from Jesus Christ,
        who is the faithful witness,
        and the first begotten of the dead,
        and the prince of the kings of the earth.
Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in HIS OWN BLOOD

Scripture says that the MAN Jesus in the FLESH was neither Son, Lord nor Christ until God made Him TO BE.

g4690. sperma, sper´-mah; from 4687; something sown, i.e. seed (including the male “sperm”); by implication, offspring; specially, a remnant (figuratively, as if kept over for planting): — issue, seed.

If God Created Adam and breathed into him the breath (spirit) of life, why would it be strange that God preserved the sperm from Abraham, David etal.
.


I guess I never thought of it that way. The traditional way I suppose I was thinking "her seed" from Genesis. I really never thought about preserved sperm. It did cross my mind possibly electrical stimulation dividing the egg.
« Last Edit: Wed May 16, 2018 - 21:26:58 by BTR »

Offline fish153

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #265 on: Thu May 17, 2018 - 09:53:06 »
BTR said----

>>>The works were done by His Father, God through Him. He said His Father does the works. There are scriptural alternate explanations for all your points. We will have to just agree to disagree. I don't think there is any reason to insult each other. Ever wonder why non-trinitarians never burned trinitarians at the stake?<<

I went back through my post and honestly do not see anything in it that is an "insult" towards you.  All I said is it is extremely difficult for me to understand how you can read
the Scriptures and not see that Jesus is the "God-Man".  But you're right, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #266 on: Thu May 17, 2018 - 10:54:19 »
Quote
Only God can forgive sins), and do the amazing miracles He did.  Can a "created being" (if Jesus was an angel or some other form of created person) take 5 loaves and 2 fishesand feed 5000 people?  Think about it.  Jesus was clearly God and Man in one body.

Why do you blaspheme???

Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy,
        Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

BUT THE SCRIBE'S (preachers-writers) QUESTION JESUS.

Mark 2:6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and REASONING in their hearts,
Mark 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

JESUS CAN READ THE MINDS EVEN OF FISH.

Mark 2:8 And immediately
        when Jesus PERCEIVED in HIS SPIRIT that they so reasoned within themselves,
        he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

Mark 2:9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy,
        Thy sins be forgiven thee;
        or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
Mark 2:10 But that ye may know that the SON OF MAN
        hath power ON EARTH to forgive sins,
        (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
Mark 2:11 I say unto thee, ARISE, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.
Mark 2:12 And immediately he arose, took up the bed,
        and went forth before them all;
        insomuch that they were all amazed,
        and glorified God, saying,
        We never saw it on this fashion.

Jesus said that He was the SON OF MAN: He BECAME the First Begotten SON of the FATHER.

GOD SAID:
Num. 23:19 God is NOT A MAN, that he should lie;
       neither the SON OF MAN, that he should repent:
        hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

GOD IS NOT A MAN NOR THE SON OF MAN
JESUS WAS A MAN AND THE SON OF MAN
JESUS IS NOT ONE-HALF GOD AND ONE-HALF MAN: THAT DEFINES THE PAGAN TRIADS WHERE THE "SPIRIT" IS ALWAYS THE MOTHER. With the Jews or defacto Egyptians, ISIS was the mother and SHE supplied the semen to generate Horus.

JESUS COULD HAVE SINNED BECAUSE HE WAS A MAN

Heb. 4:15 For we have not an high priest
      which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities;
      but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

FISH refutes Jesus and God the Father of the Son.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #267 on: Thu May 17, 2018 - 11:14:19 »
Quote
I guess I never thought of it that way. The traditional way I suppose I was thinking "her seed" from Genesis. I really never thought about preserved sperm. It did cross my mind possibly electrical stimulation dividing the egg.

I don't know how God did it but Jesus said that He was a MAN and Paul wrote:

Rom. 1:1  Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Rom. 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
Rom. 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord,
       which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom. 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power,
        according to the spirit of holiness,
        BY the resurrection from the dead:

If Jesus was both God and Man it certainly was not at His birth. Like the WORD, the GRACE of God hath appeared TEACHING US.  To say that Jesus didn't know about GRACE is to say that He was ignorant of His own nature. Both Jesus and His very simple commandments IS "Grace made flesh or Visible and Audible."

Rom. 1:5 BY whom we have received GRACE and apostleship,
       for OBEDIENCE to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Rom. 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
Rom. 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
       GRACE to you and peace from
       God [Theos] our Father,
       AND
       the Lord [Kurios[ Jesus Christ.

There is NO GRACE for those who cannot confess: "I believe that Jesus Christ is the SON OF the Living God. Even those who mouth this BAPTISMAL CONFESSION return to the pulpit and demand--under penalty of anathema--that JESUS WAS THE LIVING GOD IN THE FLESH.

Jesus was a UNIQUE Son of God but believers can BECOME sons of God.  God gave Jesus the POWER to do whatever He did concerning HIS creation. The need to make Jesus The Lord (yhwh) God (elohim) is a subconscious or UNCONSCIOUS Driving Purpose to DENY that Jesus came IN THE FLESH.  If Jesus came IN THE FLESH then it was not GOD Who came in the flesh.  That view of God is beyond the pale and the IDENTIFYING MARK of being OF THE WORLD and Jesus died for the Sins of the World but He didn't PRAY for the people OF THE WORLD or those BENEATH or Tartarus.

Electrical stimulation is possible and has been done, but I don't know how far it has gone.

Offline RB

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #268 on: Thu May 17, 2018 - 14:29:26 »
Quote
Electrical stimulation is possible and has been done, but I don't know how far it has gone.
You and BTR are talking without faith and doing so very foolishly, using human wisdom on how Jesus' conception could have happen~it's very simple~God willed Jesus' conception and it happened. The same manner in which this world was created, etc. Nothing is impossible with God and he does not need to work overtime to make it happen. He can just desire it and it is finished perfectly~even tens thousands worlds. His power is infinite.

If I can think it, then God can do it, plus infinite more! That is my Father, who is your Father? I truly trust the same, but let us not limit Him.
« Last Edit: Fri May 18, 2018 - 03:44:38 by RB »

Offline fish153

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #269 on: Thu May 17, 2018 - 15:23:41 »
Kenneth said--

>>>JESUS CAN READ THE MINDS EVEN OF FISH.<<<

That is very true.  And when He was on earth He could read minds and see great distances (Read about Nathanael in John 1 who when He realized the omnipresence
of Jesus and his ominisciece declared "YOU ARE THE KING OF ISRAEL!!"  and also read about the apostles in the middle of a raging storm and it says that "Jesus could
see them toiling at the oars
"  No ordinary human has that kind of vision Kenneth).

It's kind of amazing Kenneth---not even Satan, the greatest of all angels can read minds.  Yet Jesus could.  There are so many things that show us Jesus is God----and you
reject them all.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #270 on: Thu May 17, 2018 - 15:39:15 »
BTR
Quote
I agree. There are a few things I have found that do disturb me a little, the older versions of the flood story but with different characters and the story about Moses being put in the river. Some say he took those stories and wrote himself into them. I don't know what to do with some of that information yet.


My thesis for which I have found support is that fter the idolatry at Mount Sinai and God sentenced the Israelites to capbivity and death in Babylon, Moses wrote an INVERTED version of Clay Tablets to WARN the now "turned over to worship the starry host." He begins with GODS or ELOHIM who created mankind out of mud or dust and the blood of an evil "god" to WORK FOR THE GODS.

The Lord-God beginning in Genesis 2 created mankind so that HE could serve and educate them by elevating mankind with LIGHT or education out of DARKNESS or ignorant superstition. Notice that Jesus came as a reflection of LIGHT.

The B.C. 4004 date is good enough if we grasp that Moses was speaking of creating or polishing those who had been virtually destroyed and enslaved.  This happened when the Sumerians began to build "worship centers" and a clergy without whose mediation the "gods" were certain to destroy you. That was the beginning of Ziggurats, sabbath WORSHIP instead of sabbath REST to serve God spiritually.

That might explain why c. ad 2000 marked a radical restructure of religions and morals and no one can doubt that was the END of a period.  The Myan Calender based on true Astronomy predicted the END in September 12, 2012 about the time of a key "election" of one who claimed that HE was sent to change everything.

Possibly speaking also of the second advent:

Isa 51:4 Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me,
        O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me,
        and I will make my judgment to rest for a LIGHT of the people.

Isa 51:5 My righteousness is near;
        my salvation is gone forth, and
        mine arms shall judge the people;
        the isles shall wait upon me,
        and on mine arm shall they trust.

Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath:
        for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
        and the earth shall wax (wear out, consumed) old like a garment,
        and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
        but my salvation shall be for ever, and
        my righteousness shall not be abolished.


The Legend of Sargon is Similar to that of Moses and may be part of Moses' warning to people who had been sentenced back to Sumer-Babylon for captivity and death.

 
http://www.piney.com/BabSargonLegend.html

http://www.piney.com/MosesSargon.html


Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #271 on: Thu May 17, 2018 - 16:09:05 »
Quote
and also read about the apostles in the middle of a raging storm and it says that "Jesus couldsee them toiling at the oars"  No ordinary human has that kind of vision Kenneth).

Firstly, fish, if humans can create a virgin birth why doubt that God could generate THE MAN JESUS from the egg of Eve.  He can raise the Dead.

The MAN. Jesus could work miracles BECAUSE THE FATHER GAVE HIM THAT POWER.

Secondly,

Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour
       knoweth no man, no,
        not the angels which are in heaven,
        NEITHER THE SON
        BUT THE FATHER


 


Offline BTR

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #272 on: Thu May 17, 2018 - 16:37:45 »
You and BTR are talking without faith and doing so very foolishly, using human wisdom on how Jesus' conception could have happen~it's very simple~God willed Jesus' conception and it happened. The same manner in which this world was created, etc. Nothing is impossible with God and he does not need to work overtime to make it happen. He can just desire it and it is finished perfectly~even tens thousands worlds. His power is infinite.

Don't be afraid. Jesus washed away our sins, not our brains. The Father is not angry if we try and understand truth. Its not lack of faith to ask and seek truth. How will you ever walk in truth if you don't know what it is? Just pretend?, I think that would be the opposite of truth.

If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. -Jas.1:5

“Therefore do not fear them. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known. Mat. 10:26

“For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light. -Lk.8:17
« Last Edit: Thu May 17, 2018 - 16:40:23 by BTR »

Offline BTR

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #273 on: Thu May 17, 2018 - 17:12:33 »
I don't know how God did it but Jesus said that He was a MAN and Paul wrote:

Rom. 1:1  Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Rom. 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
Rom. 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord,
       which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom. 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power,
        according to the spirit of holiness,
        BY the resurrection from the dead:

If Jesus was both God and Man it certainly was not at His birth. Like the WORD, the GRACE of God hath appeared TEACHING US.  To say that Jesus didn't know about GRACE is to say that He was ignorant of His own nature. Both Jesus and His very simple commandments IS "Grace made flesh or Visible and Audible."

Rom. 1:5 BY whom we have received GRACE and apostleship,
       for OBEDIENCE to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Rom. 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
Rom. 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
       GRACE to you and peace from
       God [Theos] our Father,
       AND
       the Lord [Kurios[ Jesus Christ.

There is NO GRACE for those who cannot confess: "I believe that Jesus Christ is the SON OF the Living God. Even those who mouth this BAPTISMAL CONFESSION return to the pulpit and demand--under penalty of anathema--that JESUS WAS THE LIVING GOD IN THE FLESH.

Jesus was a UNIQUE Son of God but believers can BECOME sons of God.  God gave Jesus the POWER to do whatever He did concerning HIS creation. The need to make Jesus The Lord (yhwh) God (elohim) is a subconscious or UNCONSCIOUS Driving Purpose to DENY that Jesus came IN THE FLESH.  If Jesus came IN THE FLESH then it was not GOD Who came in the flesh.  That view of God is beyond the pale and the IDENTIFYING MARK of being OF THE WORLD and Jesus died for the Sins of the World but He didn't PRAY for the people OF THE WORLD or those BENEATH or Tartarus.

Electrical stimulation is possible and has been done, but I don't know how far it has gone.


Yes, I agree with everything you have pointed out.

Jesus is a descendant of Abraham and David by adoption through Joseph (Mat.1) and by blood through Mary (Lk.3).

Adoption as sons through the blood of Christ comes to mind.

And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”
-Gen.3:15

Offline bemark

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #274 on: Fri May 18, 2018 - 00:12:54 »
If i look into a mirror and i see me as a image. Is that image me or just a reflection of me. Its a reflection of  me?  What now if i could form that image into a living bein so the blind could see. Others now could touch my image , but is this clay image really me , or a reflection  of me?  Is this reflection , that i made to come to life in the dimension of created man not me? What if now that image and I had a direct line to each other. So the image could now say I dont  do anything but what i see my Father do in heaven.

Who is Jesus Christ . God reflected to man, as man so we  could touch and see . Jesus Christ is God because he always was God, so when we worship Jesus Christ the reflection of God , we actual worship the Father because they are one. Hes the man in the mirror.

I have  tried to understand and explain it the way i can. Maybe its a bad example but i tried lol








Offline bemark

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #275 on: Fri May 18, 2018 - 01:54:49 »
1 John 1 New King James Version (NKJV)

What Was Heard, Seen, and Touched
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things we write to you that [a]your joy may be full.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #276 on: Fri May 18, 2018 - 12:13:47 »
Quote
1 John 1 New King James Version (NKJV) What Was Heard, Seen, and Touched1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us—....

I know that it is tedious and maddening but read the WHOLE TRUTH.

2Pet. 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, SEEING YE KNOW these things before,
        beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pet. 3:18 But grow in GRACE, and in the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
        To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

1John 1:1 That which was from the beginning,   
        which we have HEARD, which we have SEEN with our eyes,
        which we have LOOKED UPON
        and our hands have HANDLED,
        of the WORD OF LIFE
1John 1:2 (For the LIFE was MANIFEST [rendered APPARENT]
        and we have SEEN IT, and bear witness,
        and SHEW unto you that eternal life,
        which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
             
        Jesus said: My WORDS are SPIRIT and LIFE Jn 6:63.THE WORD was manifested by JESUS.

1John 1:3 That which we have SEEN and HEARD declare we unto you,
        That ye also may have fellowship with us:
        and truly our fellowship is with
        the FATHER,
        AND
        with HIS SON Jesus Christ. [Who made the Word of Life visible and audible]

WHATEVER THEY HEARD COULD BE WRITTEN ON PAPER:

1John 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

THE BEGINNING ALWAYS SPEAKS OF THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF CHRIST.
The Genesis 1 Creation of the ELOHIM but NOT GOD

    Is. 45:18 For thus saith the Lord (YHWH) that created the heavens;
            God himself that FORMED the earth and MADE IT
            he hath ESTABLISHED it,
            HE created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited:
            I am the Lord; and there is NONE ELSE
    Jer. 10:11 Thus shall ye say unto them,
           The gods (ELOHIM) that have NOT MADE the heavens and the earth,
            even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.

THE NEW TESTAMENT USES BEGINNING TO SPEAK OF THE KINGDOM

    Mark 1:1 The beginning (Arche g746) OF THE GOSPEL OF
            Jesus Christ, THE SON OF GOD
    Mark 1:2 As it is written in the prophets,
            Behold, I send my messenger before thy face,
            which shall prepare thy WAY [Narrow SECT] before thee.
    Mark 1:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness,
             Prepare ye THE WAY of the Lord [Kurios not Theos], make his paths straight   

1John 1:5 This then is the message
        which WE HAVE HEARD OF HIM,
                 [FROM THE BEGINNING Arche g746 THE CORNER. RULE, )
        and DECLARE unto you,
                that God is LIGHT, and in him is no darkness at all.

1John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him,
        and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light,
        we have fellowship one with another,
        and the blood of JESUS CHRIST HIS SON cleanseth us from all sin.



Offline Truthcomber

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #277 on: Fri May 18, 2018 - 12:54:52 »
If i look into a mirror and i see me as a image. Is that image me or just a reflection of me. Its a reflection of  me?  What now if i could form that image into a living bein so the blind could see. Others now could touch my image , but is this clay image really me , or a reflection  of me?  Is this reflection , that i made to come to life in the dimension of created man not me? What if now that image and I had a direct line to each other. So the image could now say I dont  do anything but what i see my Father do in heaven.

Who is Jesus Christ . God reflected to man, as man so we  could touch and see . Jesus Christ is God because he always was God, so when we worship Jesus Christ the reflection of God , we actual worship the Father because they are one. Hes the man in the mirror.

I have  tried to understand and explain it the way i can. Maybe its a bad example but i tried lol



My Response:


If almighty God, who is invisible, had looked in the Mirror, he wouldn’t have seen anything.  Then in John 14:9, Philip would have heard the Messiah but would not have seen him.  God does not have a reflection.  We are also one with God, but are not God but the sons of God, like Christ is the son of God.

Col 1:15 (NIV) The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn (vs. 18: from the dead or prior dead creation and the beginning of the new creation) over all creation (vs 16-17).

Comment: Christ is the expressed (created) image of God. This is the image or thought that God had in his mind that he expressed, not all at once, but through a process of conception and glorification.  All man from the first Adam was made and is to be made in this image that came later but was in the mind of God from the beginning. 

Acts 13:33 (BLB) that God has fulfilled this to us their children, having raised up Jesus, as also it has been written in the second psalm: 'You are My Son, today I have begotten you.'

John 1:14
And the Word was made (became one) flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten (so far) of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Comment: The Gospel of John was written decades after Christ had risen from the dead.  So John 1:14 is an interjection into the sequence of events. 

Col 1:16 For by (in) him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were (are) created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by (in) him all things consist. 17 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
 
Comment: In Col 1:16-18) “in him” pertains to the start of creation from the physical creation.  “by him” pertains to the new creation, which is the only one that will last for eternity. 

1 Thes 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Comment: So “the only begotten of the father”, means the only one so far raised in body and soul from the grave and gloried.  .  It does not mean that God somehow had his DNA impregnate Mary.   Why? It is because God doesn’t have DNA, which is a creation which we can see.  Christ is the start  and end of that new creation (vs 16-17). 

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Comment: The agent of God here is Christ, not the angel.  So Christ who acts in the place of God as an agent is worshiped as the Almighty God (Rev 1:8).  The angel here is just the stenographer.  He is not to be worshiped (Rev 22:8-9). 


Online 4WD

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #278 on: Fri May 18, 2018 - 15:42:09 »
Comment: The agent of God here is Christ, not the angel.  So Christ who acts in the place of God as an agent is worshiped as the Almighty God (Rev 1:8).  The angel here is just the stenographer.  He is not to be worshiped (Rev 22:8-9).
Such a sick view of the Divine. Of course the angel is not to be worshiped and if Christ is not God, the Son, then neither is He to be worshiped.  And His death on the cross most certainly could not be a ransom for anyone, let alone the whole world.
« Last Edit: Fri May 18, 2018 - 15:46:33 by 4WD »

Offline fish153

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #279 on: Fri May 18, 2018 - 15:52:05 »
bemark---

I do have to state that Truthcomber is using human understanding to state what you are saying is false. That is often the problem with many who state that Jesus
is not Deity. They cannot accept this teaching, or the teaching of a Trinity, because they are attempting to understand it with their human reasoning.

"Trust in the Lord with all of your heart, and lean not to your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He shall direct your path" (Prov. 3:5,6)

I do want to apologize to Truthcomber, BTR and Kenneth though if I have in any way been insulting---because I really did not intend to be,  I do want to fervently defend
the teaching that Jesus Christ is God--but that should not give me license to insult or belittle any of you.

I do want to honestly say how saddened I am though.  I remember a few years back (1) person who posted here attacked the Deity of Jesus. He finally was made to go to the
Non-Traditional Theology board because attacking the Deity of Christ is actually a great offense to  many believers.  What saddens me is that there are (3) or more on
this thread now who have free reign to do this, and it is like allowing Jehovah's Witnesses to teach their doctrine freely, and treating it as accepted and revered doctrine.  This simply
is not true.  To say Jesus was "created" or is an "angel" is an affront to Him and to the Gospel.   So, I am sorry for anything that appeared to be an insult, but I am not sorry
for the doctrine I have posted at all. May Jesus Christ be praised.
« Last Edit: Fri May 18, 2018 - 15:55:25 by fish153 »