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Author Topic: How can Jesus Christ be God?  (Read 17835 times)

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Offline Truthcomber

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #315 on: Sat May 19, 2018 - 22:06:38 »
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/1-timothy-3-16

1 Timothy 3:16
Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. (NIV)

1. Although the above verse in the NIV does not support the Trinity, there are some Greek manuscripts that read, “God appeared in the flesh.” This reading of some Greek manuscripts has passed into some English versions, and the King James Version is one of them. Trinitarian scholars admit, however, that these Greek texts were altered by scribes in favor of the Trinitarian position. The reading of the earliest and best manuscripts is not “God” but rather “he who.” Almost all the modern versions have the verse as “the mystery of godliness is great, which was manifest in the flesh,” or some close equivalent.

2. In regard to the above verse, Bruce Metzger writes:
[“He who”] is supported by the earliest and best uncials…no uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century supports theos; all ancient versions presuppose hos or ho [“he who” or “he”]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading theos. The reading theos arose either(a) accidentally, or (b) deliberately, either to supply a substantive for the following six verbs [the six verbs that follow in the verse], or, with less probability, to provide greater dogmatic precision [i.e., to produce a verse that more clearly supports the Trinitarian position].” [1]

3. When properly translated, 1 Timothy 3:16 actually argues against the Trinity. “By common confession great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Beheld by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory” (NASB). This section of Scripture beautifully portrays an overview of Christ’s life and accomplishments. It all fits with what we know of the man, Jesus Christ. If Jesus were God, this section of Scripture would have been the perfect place to say so. We should expect to see some phrases like, “God incarnate,” “God and Man united,” “very God and very man,” etc. But nothing like that occurs. Instead, the section testifies to what non-Trinitarians believe—that Christ was a man, begotten by the Father, and that he was taken up into glory.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_timothy/3-16.htm

Concordance supports “he” and not “God”



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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #315 on: Sat May 19, 2018 - 22:06:38 »

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #316 on: Sat May 19, 2018 - 22:09:38 »
So:

1 Tim 3:15 (NIV) if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. 16 Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great: He (Christ) appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. 

1 Cor 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Comment: The Messiah is the foundation of the church mentioned in vs. 15 above and is the “he” in verse 16

http://heavennet.net/writings/supporting-the-trinity-doctrine/#1timothy-3_16

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #316 on: Sat May 19, 2018 - 22:09:38 »

Offline fish153

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #317 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 00:04:55 »
Soterion---

Your post below is absolutely correct. "He who denies that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God" (1 John).  He is not talking about someone who doesn't believe Jesus was ever born, or that Jesus was just a spirit.

He is stating something extremely important----those who deny the deity of Christ. The "false teachers" "deny the Lord who bought them". Those,  like Charles Taze Russell and Judge Rutherford (the two first leaders of the Jehovah's Witnesses) who leave the truth and reveal they were never born-again believers are being referred to here.

This very denial reveals that they do not have the Spirit, and are with the spirit of Antichrist. They are easily identified. "Whom do you say that I am"? becomes a very seruious test. Who do they say Jesus is? Was He THE WORD (God the SON) become flesh?

Thank you for bringing that up--- it is an important spiritual question and test.

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #317 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 00:04:55 »

Offline BTR

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #318 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 00:56:54 »
Quote; "This very denial reveals that they do not have the Spirit, and are with the spirit of Antichrist. They are easily identified. "Whom do you say that I am"? becomes a very seruious test. Who do they say Jesus is? Was He THE WORD (God the SON) become flesh?"



Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. -

My confession is this also.

Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? -1Jhn.5:5

Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. -1Jhn.4:15

Notice it does not say he who confesses that Jesus is God, nor God the Son. So why are you saying that? Why are you saying that those who dont say Jesus is God "do not have the Spirit"? When all along we have been confessing what the Word says, but you are the ones adding strange fire.

The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. -1Jhn.5:10

And I am not a JW.

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.

Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God;
the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
-2Jhn.1:8,9



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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #318 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 00:56:54 »

Offline soterion

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #319 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 02:24:49 »
Soterion---

Your post below is absolutely correct. "He who denies that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God" (1 John).  He is not talking about someone who doesn't believe Jesus was ever born, or that Jesus was just a spirit.

He is stating something extremely important----those who deny the deity of Christ. The "false teachers" "deny the Lord who bought them". Those,  like Charles Taze Russell and Judge Rutherford (the two first leaders of the Jehovah's Witnesses) who leave the truth and reveal they were never born-again believers are being referred to here.

This very denial reveals that they do not have the Spirit, and are with the spirit of Antichrist. They are easily identified. "Whom do you say that I am"? becomes a very seruious test. Who do they say Jesus is? Was He THE WORD (God the SON) become flesh?

Thank you for bringing that up--- it is an important spiritual question and test.

It may help to know what John was dealing with in his letters, where he is talking about those who deny that Jesus came in the flesh.

There were Gnostics in John's day who had a seriously flawed view of things. They believed that physical matter was inherently evil, and that includes our physical bodies. Out of that flawed foundation came the idea that the Messiah could not have truly been born of a woman and become flesh and grow to become a real man. They believe that Jesus only appeared to be a physical being. This is the doctrine known as docetism. Because physical matter is evil, there is no way that the Savior of the world would take on evil flesh.

Of course, if we really think about it, to deny Jesus became flesh is to deny any possibility of salvation through His sacrifice and subsequent resurrection. The Gnostics actually denied that is why He came. It was not to save us from sin, but to save us from our bodies. While the physical body is evil, our souls or spirits are good. They believed Jesus came to set our spirits free of our bodies. Also, to deny He came in the flesh is to deny the prophecies concerning His coming as a fleshly descendant of David.

I was not equating the denial of Jesus' deity by some here with the denial of His coming in the flesh as found in John's letters. I believe those are two different matters, although both pertain to a denial of some basic nature of who He is that created man and then later became flesh and brought salvation to His fallen creation.

Again, some may find the concept of God Himself becoming a man too incredible to grasp, but that just makes what Paul said even more spectacular:

Philippians 2:5-8.
Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross.

Both His deity and humanity are positively affirmed in that scripture. Jesus existed in the form of God, and was equal with God, before He came in the flesh. This could not be said of anyone but God. If Jesus was not God, then Paul could not have written this about Him. The passage goes on to say that He did not hold on to that equality with God, but gave it up and became a bond servant, becoming a man and being obedient, even to the point of dying on the cross for us.

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #319 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 02:24:49 »



Offline bemark

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #320 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 03:30:49 »
Matthew 28

The Great Commission
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go [c]therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” [d]Amen.

Look above more worship of Jesus.

 Now if the Father Son and Holy Spirit was not equal it would be just wrong to command that a new believer be baptized with all 3 . Look at this as well . We as a believer should be baptized in there also seperate names.

Its not just them saying i baptize you into the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit. They were opening up the realm of the Kingdom to the new believer. Here is the Father , Here is the son and here is the Holy Spirit. These are the ones i know....now get to know them as well. They are one but you must know them and receive there baptizm seperatly

Maybe you need to spend more time under the baptizim or open heaven of the son so you can see him as he is. High and lifted up. Thats by being with him in the Spirit realm just like we do with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

« Last Edit: Sun May 20, 2018 - 03:34:05 by bemark »

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #320 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 03:30:49 »

Offline RB

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #321 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 04:13:50 »
1 Timothy 3:16 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

16 [a]And without controversy, great is the mystery of godliness, which is, is manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of Angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, and received up in glory


Not sure where you got your information from and really do not have time to research it, but here is what I have
Quote
1 Timothy 3:16 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)~And without controversy, great is the mystery of godliness, which is, God is manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of Angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, and received up in glory.

Footnotes:
1 Timothy 3:16 There is nothing more excellent than this truth, whereof the Church is the keeper and preserver here amongst men, the ministry of the word being appointed to that end and purpose: for it teacheth us the greatest matters that may be thought of, to wit, that God is become visible in the person of Christ by taking our nature upon him, whose Majesty notwithstanding in so great weakness was manifested many ways, insomuch that the sight of it pierced the very Angels: and to conclude, he being preached unto the Gentiles was received of them, and is now placed above in glory unspeakable.
1 Timothy 3:16 The power of the Godhead showeth itself so marvelously in that weak flesh of Christ, that though he were a weak man, yet all the world knoweth he was, and is God.
MUCH different than what you posted. I would say that YOU twisted it to make it look like the Geneva Bible supported your heresy, which it DOES NOT.  YOU took God out of the Geneva Bible! You're a thief!
« Last Edit: Sun May 20, 2018 - 04:30:36 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #322 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 04:59:03 »
Quote
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/130101.htm
These words are from Augustine section 7 of his book on the Trinity. Written around 1600 years ago.

In What Manner the Son is Less Than the Father, and Than Himself.

"In these and like testimonies of the divine Scriptures, by free use of which, as I have said, our predecessors exploded such sophistries or errors of the heretics, the unity and equality of the Trinity are intimated to our faith. But because, on account of the incarnation of the Word of God for the working out of our salvation, that the man Christ Jesus might be the Mediator between God and men, many things are so said in the sacred books as to signify, or even most expressly declare, the Father to be greater than the Son; men have erred through a want of careful examination or consideration of the whole tenor of the Scriptures, and have endeavored to transfer those things which are said of Jesus Christ according to the flesh, to that substance of His which was eternal before the incarnation, and is eternal. They say, for instance, that the Son is less than the Father, because it is written that the Lord Himself said, My Father is greater than I. But the truth shows that after the same sense the Son is less also than Himself; for how was He not made less also than Himself, who emptied Himself, and took upon Him the form of a servant? For He did not so take the form of a servant as that He should lose the form of God, in which He was equal to the Father. If, then, the form of a servant was so taken that the form of God was not lost, since both in the form of a servant and in the form of God He Himself is the same only-begotten Son of God the Father, in the form of God equal to the Father, in the form of a servant the Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; is there any one who cannot perceive that He Himself in the form of God is also greater than Himself, but yet likewise in the form of a servant less than Himself? And not, therefore, without cause the Scripture says both the one and the other, both that the Son is equal to the Father, and that the Father is greater than the Son. For there is no confusion when the former is understood as on account of the form of God, and the latter as on account of the form of a servant. And, in truth, this rule for clearing the question through all the sacred Scriptures is set forth in one chapter of an epistle of the Apostle Paul, where this distinction is commended to us plainly enough. For he says, Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God; but emptied Himself, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: and was found in fashion as a man. The Son of God, then, is equal to God the Father in nature, but less in fashion. For in the form of a servant which He took He is less than the Father; but in the form of God, in which also He was before He took the form of a servant, He is equal to the Father. In the form of God He is the Word, by whom all things are made; but in the form of a servant He was made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law. In like manner, in the form of God He made man; in the form of a servant He was made man. For if the Father alone had made man without the Son, it would not have been written, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Therefore, because the form of God took the form of a servant, both is God and both is man; but both God, on account of God who takes; and both man, on account of man who is taken. For neither by that taking is the one of them turned and changed into the other: the Divinity is not changed into the creature, so as to cease to be Divinity; nor the creature into Divinity, so as to cease to be creature."

All emphasis is mine to help us see what the church has for the most part believed. We do not have to agree with every single phrase one uses, AS LONG as their overall doctrine is the same. Augustine lay the foundation for the reformers teaching for the most part.

« Last Edit: Sun May 20, 2018 - 05:03:33 by RB »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #323 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 09:45:31 »
Quoting tiidbits of Augustine from the Catholic Encyclopedia is dangerous. Taking on the 13 books Augustine wrote may be above any of our pay grades.


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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #323 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 09:45:31 »

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #324 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 11:12:27 »
Ken

How true your above post is: what Red quoted above you is directly from the philosophy of men and Mystery Babylon itself.  Continue the good work.

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #325 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 11:17:40 »
I had written:

Reply #314 on: Yesterday at 22:01:42 »
 

Is the Bible we have today in English the same as the original Bible?
https://www.biblica.com/resources/bible-faqs/is-the-bible-we-have-today-in-english-the-same-as-the-original-bible/


What Bible translation is closest to the original written scriptures?
https://ebible.com/questions/16980-what-bible-translation-is-closest-to-the-original-written-scriptures



Red Responded:
« Reply #321 on: Today at 04:13:50 »


Not sure where you got your information from and really do not have time to research it, but here is what I have
Quote
1 Timothy 3:16 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)~And without controversy, great is the mystery of godliness, which is, God is manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of Angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, and received up in glory.

Footnotes:
1 Timothy 3:16 There is nothing more excellent than this truth, whereof the Church is the keeper and preserver here amongst men, the ministry of the word being appointed to that end and purpose: for it teacheth us the greatest matters that may be thought of, to wit, that God is become visible in the person of Christ by taking our nature upon him, whose Majesty notwithstanding in so great weakness was manifested many ways, insomuch that the sight of it pierced the very Angels: and to conclude, he being preached unto the Gentiles was received of them, and is now placed above in glory unspeakable.
1 Timothy 3:16 The power of the Godhead showeth itself so marvelously in that weak flesh of Christ, that though he were a weak man, yet all the world knoweth he was, and is God.
MUCH different than what you posted. I would say that YOU twisted it to make it look like the Geneva Bible supported your heresy, which it DOES NOT.  YOU took God out of the Geneva Bible! You're a thief!


I had also stated on the same post on what your position with the Geneva Bible was as affirmed by the KJV.  I wanted to contrast your source of information  below with what I had stated above you:

1 Timothy 3:16 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

16 [a]And without controversy, great is the mystery of godliness, which is, is manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of Angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, and received up in glory.

1 Tim 3:16 (KJV) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


Red then Responded:


MUCH different than what you posted. I would say that YOU twisted it to make it look like the Geneva Bible supported your heresy, which it DOES NOT.  YOU took God out of the Geneva Bible! You're a thief! 

My Response:


How sad

I got the quoted  on the 1 Tim 3:16 from the Geneva Bible from the below link:


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Tim+3%3A16&version=GNV

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #326 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 11:30:00 »


RB, Instead of addressing the statements at hand, you go out on a tangent.  Please address the post at hand directly. 


If you think the Messiah is equal with God, please tell me what you think these passages below that I posted mean in conjunction with each other? 

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 because he (God) hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man (Christ) whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:


1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he (Christ) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

John 17:33 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


RB, please reconcile the two verses below:


God says in Exodus 20:4 not to make an image (not just graven image) of anything to be worship as God.
   
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Christ is the image of the invisible and only true God.  We should not worship any image as God.  Yet, you insist on worshipping Christ as God.  Why?

Also, please comment on the below:

Heb 2:11 For both he (Christ) that sanctifieth and they (church)  who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I (Christ) sing praise unto thee. 13 And again, I (Christ) will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.


Offline RB

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #327 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 12:34:36 »
I got the quoted  on the 1 Tim 3:16 from the Geneva Bible from the below link: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Tim+3%3A16&version=GNV
Really, then let us see:
Quote
16 [a]And without controversy, great is the mystery of godliness, which is, God is manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of Angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, and received up in glory.

Footnotes:
1 Timothy 3:16 There is nothing more excellent than this truth, whereof the Church is the keeper and preserver here amongst men, the ministry of the word being appointed to that end and purpose: for it teacheth us the greatest matters that may be thought of, to wit, that God is become visible in the person of Christ by taking our nature upon him, whose Majesty notwithstanding in so great weakness was manifested many ways, insomuch that the sight of it pierced the very Angels: and to conclude, he being preached unto the Gentiles was received of them, and is now placed above in glory unspeakable.
1 Timothy 3:16 The power of the Godhead showeth itself so marvelously in that weak flesh of Christ, that though he were a weak man, yet all the world knoweth he was, and is God.
1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
Again, you're a thief, you removed God from the Geneva Bible!

It is not hard to see who is being truthful and who is lying.
« Last Edit: Sun May 20, 2018 - 12:37:40 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #328 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 13:05:19 »
Also, please comment on the below:

Heb 2:11 For both he (Christ) that sanctifieth and they (church)  who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I (Christ) sing praise unto thee. 13 And again, I (Christ) will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
Be more than happy to do so...I first have some commitments so it will later, for I will not halfway give my comments to you.
Quote
Quoting tiidbits of Augustine from the Catholic Encyclopedia is dangerous.
They have more truth on this doctrine than you. Besides, they have a great source of Agustine's work who was a faithful servant and very gifted. I can go other places and get Agustine's work on the Trinity. Here's a portion of John Calvin's sermon on 1st Timothy 3:16 JUST to prove what the faithful have for the most part believed.
Quote
https://www.monergism.com/mystery-godliness-god-manifest-flesh-1-timothy-316
A small quote:

"......................And therefore, when we see so many deliberately shun and flee from doctrine, can we marvel that there is such a brutishness that we know not the ABC's of Christianity, and that we hear, as it were, a strange language if men tell us that God is manifested in the flesh? Yet notwithstanding, this sentence cannot be put out of God's register, that is, that we have no faith if we know not how our Lord Jesus Christ is joined with us, to the end that we may be his members and he our head. Moreover, it seems that God will stir us up to think upon this mystery whether we will or not, seeing that we are asleep and as drowsy as we are. For the heresies which Satan spreads, come not by chance or haphazard, but God exercises us and by practice hardens us, and makes us steel, so to speak, to that which we understood not before. And we see how the devil stirs up these contentious people, sometimes to deny the humanity of Jesus Christ or his Godhead, sometimes to confound them both that we may not know two distinct natures in him, or else to cause us to believe that he is no more that man which fulfilled the promises in the law, and so consequently is descended of the stock of Abraham and David. Is it indeed so that such errors and heresies which existed in the beginning of the Church of Christ, are now spreading in these our days? It is God's doing (as I said), who intends to make our backs like steel, to the end that we may be strengthened in the truth of his Gospel. And because he sees us so negligent in that behalf, he draws us to it by force. And thus let us mark well the words that are set down here by Saint Paul. First of all he says, “That God was manifested in the flesh.” Now when he calls Jesus Christ God, he yields to him this nature which he had before the world was made. True it is that there is but one God only, but in this one essence we must comprehend the Father, and a wisdom which cannot be severed from him, and an everlasting virtue, which was always and shall be forever in him.

Thus is Jesus Christ truly God, insomuch as he was the wisdom of God before the world was made, and before all everlastingness. Now, it is said that he was made manifest in the flesh. By this word Flesh, Saint Paul gives us to understand that he was truly man, and took our nature upon himself. But now he shows by this word, Manifested, that there are two natures in him. And yet we may not imagine that there is one Jesus Christ who is God and another Jesus Christ who is man. But we must know him alone as God and man."

Highlights are mine~RB


Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #329 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 13:43:16 »
Augustine denies that the Holy Spirit which communicates between the Father and the Son is a person. He says that God's word or WORDS is God's Wisdom expressed.  The Almighty as always noted by those teaching the true Trinity always has His Word or Wisdom with Him.

Augustine says that you deny God as the ALMIGHTY.  If there was another NATURE in addition to the ONE then God was-is not Almighty.
« Last Edit: Sun May 20, 2018 - 13:45:48 by Kenneth Sublett »

Offline 4WD

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #330 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 16:21:04 »
Augustine denies that the Holy Spirit which communicates between the Father and the Son is a person. He says that God's word or WORDS is God's Wisdom expressed.  The Almighty as always noted by those teaching the true Trinity always has His Word or Wisdom with Him.

Augustine says that you deny God as the ALMIGHTY.  If there was another NATURE in addition to the ONE then God was-is not Almighty.

Too late now, but God help Augustine.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #331 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 17:06:43 »
Quote
And we see how the devil stirs up these contentious people, sometimes to deny the humanity of Jesus Christ or his Godhead, sometimes to confound them both that we may not know two distinct natures in him, or else to cause us to believe that he is no more that man which fulfilled the promises in the law, and so consequently is descended of the stock of Abraham and David.


Jesus is MUCH MORE Because the ONE GOD THE FATHER made Him TO BE both Lord and Christ.  If Calvin would burn Servetus for quoting Scripture why should we believe a man who didn't know the meaning of GODHEAD.





Offline Truthcomber

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #332 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 18:41:14 »
Soterion---

Your post below is absolutely correct. "He who denies that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God" (1 John).  He is not talking about someone who doesn't believe Jesus was ever born, or that Jesus was just a spirit.

He is stating something extremely important----those who deny the deity of Christ. The "false teachers" "deny the Lord who bought them". Those,  like Charles Taze Russell and Judge Rutherford (the two first leaders of the Jehovah's Witnesses) who leave the truth and reveal they were never born-again believers are being referred to here.

This very denial reveals that they do not have the Spirit, and are with the spirit of Antichrist. They are easily identified. "Whom do you say that I am"? becomes a very seruious test. Who do they say Jesus is? Was He THE WORD (God the SON) become flesh?

Thank you for bringing that up--- it is an important spiritual question and test.





My Response:

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_john/4-2.htm

By this know you the spirit of God  Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ in (not in the) flesh having come of God is 


1 John 4:1 (Yong’s Literal Translation)  Beloved, every spirit believe not, but prove the spirits, if of God they are, because many false prophets have gone forth to the world; 2 in this know ye the Spirit of God; every spirit that doth confess Jesus Christ in the flesh having come, of God it is, 3 and every spirit that doth not confess Jesus Christ in the flesh having come, of God it is not; and this is that of the antichrist, which ye heard that it doth come, and now in the world it is already.

2 Cor 5:19
  (YLT) how that God was in Christ -- a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation,

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed (2 Cor 1:22 earnest of the spirit) remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Comment: 2 Cor 5:19 shows that God (Holy spirit) came and was in Christ and not God became Christ.  Most translations (including the original Greek in the interlinear bible) of 1 John 4:2 show that  the seed or spirit (soul) of God came into the body that God had prepared for the Messiah (Heb 10:5).  God gives every seed (2 Cor 1:22: earnest of the spirit) a body (1 Cor 15:38).  This includes God himself, whereas his spirit and the Messiah are one.  Thus the spirit or soul is first, and then the spirit in the body.  The spirit did not become flesh.  The spirit that was in Christ had started off as a seed.  Christ’s mind grew in relationship to the  holy spirit in his mind, and Christ’s spirit (soul) grew in his Father’s mind.

John 14:11  Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.   

Comment: So Christ grew in the holy spirit in his mind.  God did not become flesh or he wouldn’t have had to grow in the holy spirit.  He would have been God in the flesh all at once. 

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #333 on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 21:29:07 »
John Calvin
Quote
And the first thing deserving of special observation is that predictions concerning the eternal God are applied to Christ, as either already fulfilled in him, or to be fulfilled at some future period. Isaiah prophesies, that

"the Lord of Hosts" shall be "for a stone of stumbling, and for a rock of offence," (Isa. 8: 14.)
Paul asserts that this prophecy was fulfilled in Christ, (Rom. 9: 33,)
and, therefore, declares that Christ is that Lord of Hosts
.

Jesus didn't yet exist and He was not named LORD AND CHRIST until he was 30 years old

His "proof" from Romans 9::33

Rom. 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    BUT THE PROPHECY IS:

    Is. 28:16 Therefore thus SAITH the Lord God,
            Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone,
            a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

The Lord of Host is a SAFE HOUSE for the Godly.
BUT, there will be a STONE of stumbling to bring about the last creation RESERVED UNTO FIRE.

Is. 8:15 And many among them shall stumble,
        and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.

HE contrary to Calvin is not the Lord of Host but the STONE Which He sent.

1 Peter 2:8 and, "A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense." They stumble because they disobey the message--and to this they were appointed.

Romans 9:32 Why not? Because their pursuit was not by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,




Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #334 on: Mon May 21, 2018 - 11:36:44 »
I have noted and noted that The Lord God Almighty is COMPLETE within HIMself.  God Thinks or conceives, God Breathes (spirit) and God speaks THE WORD.
Especially after Constantine, when unwashed pagans became bishops and paid a salary, he demanded a UNIFIED view.

God never appeared IN THE FLESH but historic Scholars say that God's SON was HIS WORD.  That WORD was made audible and visible when Jesus SPOKE as God gave Him utterance just as He had spoken before by the Prophets.  Words like Word, Spirit, Grace "appeared" and spoke but these are not the names of dozens of "gods" ALL required in order to be God Almighty.

Richard T. Hughes and C. Leonard Allen, in their book, Discovering our Roots:
Quote
The Ancestry of the Churches of Christ, made a most significant statement on page 8: "If we assume that our roots are entirely sacred and not profane, entirely apostolic and not historical, entirely Biblical and not cultural, then we have elevated ourselves above the level of common humanity, and, in essence, made ourselves into gods."

From page 5 "This attitude toward the past characterized the early movement... Propelled by such an attitude toward the past, restoration movements like ours easily develop a kind of historylessness. By this term I refer to the perception that, while other churches or movements are snared in the web of profane history,
one's own church or movement stands above mere human history. One's own movement partakes only of the perfections of the first age, the sacred time of pure beginnings... This sense of historylessness works in powerful and subtle ways. In the process it creates exhilarating (and damaging) illusions


NONE of the historic practices of true Churches as Ecclesia which HE wants to destroy are derived from councils of history.  Theology--right up there with Phrenology--is certainly ANTI Christian and ANTI Biblical.  C. Leonard Allen's latest gig at LU believes that IMAGINATION must be used to interpret Scripture. Female and Feminists leaders use Catholic and pagan practices which are defined as WITCHCRAFT or VOODOO.

Early church leaders read Scripture and decisions of Church Councils and rejected them.  Thomas Campbell agreed with Tertullian one of the first to deny that Jesus of Nazareth WAS the Lord-God in the flesh.

Only Jesus WHOM GOD MADE TO BE both LORD AND CHRIST came in the FLESH.







Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #335 on: Mon May 21, 2018 - 17:48:18 »
I was just showing you that GOD does not appear in the Greek nor Latin.
That must be why they were pagans.  Besides, everybody know that God only shows up in 1611 King James' English.

::peeking::

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #336 on: Mon May 21, 2018 - 20:46:02 »
They should use Old english "gud" or "gudis".  Everyone had a name for the SUPREME DEITY.

Lots of posters pretend that something related to the Lord [yhwh] in Hebrew can be used of Jesus Who was Lord [Kurios] but not "theos."  I believe that Calvin does that.

I had to write a paper for the board of a "Christian" school defending against people who claimed that the KJV was written in "Holy Ghost Language." Of course they didn't have a 1611 kjv.

Offline bemark

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #337 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 04:08:48 »
The Centrality of Christ
15 He is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn over all creation.
16 For everything was created by Him,
in heaven and on earth,
the visible and the invisible,
whether thrones or dominions
or rulers or authorities—
all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things,
and by Him all things hold together.
18 He is also the head of the body, the church;
He is the beginning,
the firstborn from the dead,
so that He might come to have
first place in everything.
19 For God was pleased to have
all His fullness dwell in Him,
20 and through Him to reconcile
everything to Himself
by making peace
through the blood of His cross[j]—
whether things on earth or things in heaven.

So he was the firstborn OVER ALL creation , Jesus Christ is not created. ,,,, but he was the way it came forth. he wasnt created , . For EVERY THING WAS CREATED BY HIM. Keep reading and yes , then what is invisiable was created as well.Thats the spirit realm where every Angel and devil exists as well.  He Jesus Christ Created the devil and the 1/3 that was cast out of heaven as well. He even created the throne or dominion that he sits in. You think he created a golden chair so he could sit in because he get tired. He created everthing around him .Every kingdom every realm, the spiritual and the physicial.
« Last Edit: Tue May 22, 2018 - 04:24:34 by bemark »

Offline bemark

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #338 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 04:19:27 »
Then he was made lower than angels . Not created to be . He had to limit himself so he could live and over come as man. If not then he would have had a advantage over man and then that could have been challenged in the courts of heaven. its a legal issue.

So he had to grow in spirit and wisdom as we must. Why is this so hard to understand. Became like us . He showed us the way . He became the way. there is no other way to the Father but through the Son. A thief and robber climbs up another way.

Hebrews 2:5-9 New King James Version (NKJV)

The Son Made Lower than Angels
5 For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels. 6 But one testified in a certain place, saying:

“What is man that You are mindful of him,
Or the son of man that You take care of him?
7 You have made him [a]a little lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,
And set him over the works of Your hands.
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”
For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made [c]a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

Offline bemark

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #339 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 04:40:02 »
1 Timothy 1 New King James Version (NKJV)

Greeting
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope,

2 To Timothy, a true son in the faith:

Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

 
Just on a side note , when i posted about being baptised in the Father 1 then Son 2 and Holy Spirit 3  and knowing  them as individuals within the Godhead.....its at the start of the letters. Why not mention the Holy Spirit in this.......because he was  given already  . They was praying for the Churches and leadership or hanging out with the Father and the Son so could pass on there individual greetings to them. Thats why Paul could already judge them in the Spirit .....because he was in the realm of the Spirit with the Father and the Son. You can now say to someone God really loves you. Try that for a while. Pick someone you want to share Gods word with . Get now the love of God by being in the spirit with The Father , then the Son and bring that person before them . Then tell that person God loves them , The father and the son. Heaven will open because you was there with them before. lol This is how the kingdom comes , how heaven opens. The Holy Spirit is there leading us
« Last Edit: Tue May 22, 2018 - 04:48:58 by bemark »

Offline RB

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #340 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 04:51:52 »
Comment: 2 Cor 5:19 shows that God (Holy spirit) came and was in Christ and not God became Christ.
Here's where you, Kenneth and BTR constantly repeat the same error over and over again. I have never said that God was Jesus Christ, the reason being is that he IS NOT. God is a Spirit, PERIOD. He always has been and always will be, that cannot ever change, NEVER. Nevertheless, the same scriptures DO clearly teach that Jesus Christ was BOTH the Son of man and the Son of God, MAKING HIME EQUAL with God. The word of God clearly teaches that the Word that was from the beginning which was God, was INCARNATE in human flesh, meaning that God who is a Spirit was manifest in the likeness of sinful flesh for sin to condemned sin in the flesh. If the scriptures do not teach this, then words have no meaning and it is impossible to have a real meaningful communication between man and man.
Quote
John 1:1-5.....14-18~ "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not...................... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."
The SAME apostle said these words:
Quote from: Apostle John
2nd John 1:8-11~"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:  For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
The doctrine of Christ as preached by the holy apostles declare plainly that Jesus Christ in his complex natures is BOTH man and God, and that God's Son is the TRUE God and eternal life, because LIFE is IN HIM JUST as it is IN his Father~for they are of the SAME essence, glory, and ALL that make up Divinity as God. the I'AM THAT I'AM according to the prophet Isaiah:
Quote
Isaiah 9:6,7~"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
A child born, and son given who IS the MIGHTY GOD, the EVERLASTING Father proves that God was manifest in the likeness of sinful flesh for sin to condemned sin in human flesh by living in perfect obedience to God's law and then laying down his life for the sins of his people, and was raised from dead by the power of God at WHICH POINT he was declared OPENLY to be the Son of God.

Jesus Christ IS the Son of God thereby equal to God as the Word JOINED himself to the tabernacle of Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus was BOTH man and God in his complex natures. To reject and deny this proves that that person is a deceiver and an antichrist.   
« Last Edit: Tue May 22, 2018 - 05:05:26 by RB »

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #341 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 04:52:44 »
It may help to know what John was dealing with in his letters, where he is talking about those who deny that Jesus came in the flesh.

There were Gnostics in John's day who had a seriously flawed view of things. They believed that physical matter was inherently evil, and that includes our physical bodies. Out of that flawed foundation came the idea that the Messiah could not have truly been born of a woman and become flesh and grow to become a real man. They believe that Jesus only appeared to be a physical being. This is the doctrine known as docetism. Because physical matter is evil, there is no way that the Savior of the world would take on evil flesh.

Of course, if we really think about it, to deny Jesus became flesh is to deny any possibility of salvation through His sacrifice and subsequent resurrection. The Gnostics actually denied that is why He came. It was not to save us from sin, but to save us from our bodies. While the physical body is evil, our souls or spirits are good. They believed Jesus came to set our spirits free of our bodies. Also, to deny He came in the flesh is to deny the prophecies concerning His coming as a fleshly descendant of David.

I was not equating the denial of Jesus' deity by some here with the denial of His coming in the flesh as found in John's letters. I believe those are two different matters, although both pertain to a denial of some basic nature of who He is that created man and then later became flesh and brought salvation to His fallen creation.

Again, some may find the concept of God Himself becoming a man too incredible to grasp, but that just makes what Paul said even more spectacular:

Philippians 2:5-8.
Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross.

Both His deity and humanity are positively affirmed in that scripture. Jesus existed in the form of God, and was equal with God, before He came in the flesh. This could not be said of anyone but God. If Jesus was not God, then Paul could not have written this about Him. The passage goes on to say that He did not hold on to that equality with God, but gave it up and became a bond servant, becoming a man and being obedient, even to the point of dying on the cross for us.




My Response:


I have copied statements from both author 1 and 2.  I have inserted my comments, and have sometimes put some sentences in the order I felt made it easier to comprehend their exigencies more readily.  Of course, everything has been condensed. 



Author 1:


Philippians 2:5-9
http://www.biblecenter.de/bibliothek/baixeras/philippians2.htm

Phil 2:5 (KJV) Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:…

7 (BLB) but emptied Himself, having taken the form of a servant, having been made in the likeness of men.

Before starting let me state the best way to understand these verses. This hymn is best understood within the framework of Adam Christology (James Dunn, Christology in the Making pg. 114-115). Though the hymn is obviously about Christ, it defines him against the background of Adam’s failure. The hymn presupposes Adam’s fateful choice, his desire to "be like God," (Gen. 3:5), his failure, and his downfall. Jesus is the second Adam. Where the first Adam failed, the second Adam is victorious. Where the first Adam sought his own interests, the second Adam remained obedient to the point of death.

Then in verses 5-8 he uses the life of Christ as an example of what he is speaking about. He tells them to have the same attitude as Christ. The point of the hymn in this context is that suffering, humility, and obedience to God for the faith leads ultimately to exaltation.

Phil 2:6 (KJV) "Who, being in the form (image) of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” 
The KJV interpretation of verse 6 goes completely contrary to that idea. It does not convey humility, it states the opposite, grandeur. It says that although Jesus was like, or represented God, that he did not think that there was anything wrong in being considered equal to God. It is basically hypocritical.


The majority of Bibles including the NAB, NASB, NRSV, NIV, and The Amplified Bible, just to name a few, interpret it as:
6 "Who though he was in the form ( image) of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped."

The conclusion to these verses is that Jesus is the second Adam created in the image of God as Adam was. As Adam, Jesus is in esteemed position, they are both called "son of God." Like Adam, Jesus was faced with a choice: seek his own interests or God’s; obey or rebel. Adam’s temptation was that he wanted to be like God (Gen. 3:5). Adam sought to grasp (the NRSV has grasp as, "something to be exploited") equality with God. But Jesus in contrast to Adam’s selfish choice did not seek to usurp God’s authority but instead took the position of a slave to God and obeyed him to the point of death.


The word form (morphe) and image (eikon) are interchangeable

Being in the form or image of something means that it is not the original

Let us review the context of this chapter. It is about being humble.

 
Now on to verse 7-9. It says: "Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness, and found human in appearance, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, death on a cross. Because of this, God greatly exalted him.

Comment: The below is from the link and demonstrates what Trinitarians think about Phil 2:7
Let me start with the phrase "he emptied himself." Many people use this verse in defense of the Trinity when confronted with questions such as

"If Jesus is omniscient then how come he does not know the day of his return?

Their answer is that Jesus doesn’t know that because he emptied himself of His divinity when he came as Jesus.    This idea has an actual name. It is called the Kenotic Doctrine. Before going on, let me show you the Creed of the Council of Chalcedon, which is the definition of Jesus which all good Trinitarians adhere to, Catholic and Protestant.


 First, the definition of The Kenosis doctrine from another author:

There are many variations of the kenosis doctrine, but the main doctrine and idea is that in order for Jesus to be capable of being a human being, i.e. in order for Him to be able to come in the flesh, He had to give up some or, in some variations, even all characteristics of God and God's power and to walk on earth as a human being only. In different variations of the doctrine, some say that Jesus still remained God, even though He gave up some of His Deity. The kenosis doctrine is based on Philippians Chapter 2:7. "But made himself of no reputation (ekenosen - kenoo), and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men" (KJV)

Comment: But this is in contrast to of DEFINITION OF THE Trinity at the COUNCIL OF CHALCEDON (451 AD)

“ Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.”

Author’s response: The Kenotic Doctrine claims that Jesus emptied himself of his deity. Well, you can simply read in the Chalcedon Creed that it defines Jesus’ nature as fully God and fully man at all times, without division, without separation. You cannot say that you believe in the Trinity and use this excuse. If you subscribe to the Kenotic Doctrine, then you have already rejected the Trinity. You cannot be both.

Encyclical of Pope Pius the 12th on the Council of Chalcedon September 8, 1951
(paragraph 29).


 There is another enemy of the faith of Chalcedon, widely diffused outside the fold of the Catholic religion. This is an opinion for which a rashly and falsely understood sentence of St. Paul’s Epistle to the Philippians (2:7), supplies a basis and a shape. This is called the kenotic doctrine, and according to it, they imagine that the divinity was taken away from the Word in Christ. It is a wicked invention, equally to be condemned with the Docetism opposed to it. It reduces the whole mystery of the Incarnation and Redemption to empty the bloodless imaginations.

Author: The Amplified Bible states Verse 7 as:
"But stripped (emptied) himself of all privilege and rightful dignity so as to assume the guise of a servant."

Comment: So what is the answer?

Author:


Matthew 26:53 – "Do you think that I cannot call upon my Father and he will not provide me at this moment with more than twelve legions of angels?"
He could have summoned them, but he didn’t. He could have used his esteemed position to call for angels to protect him, but he chose to empty himself of his right and privilege in obedience to God. Now let us look at the remaining verses.

Phil 2:7
: "Coming in human likeness, and found human in appearance."

Fashion (eidos) – "In general the state and relations of a human being, so that in the entire mode of his appearance he made himself known and was recognized as a man."

In the simplest of terms, this definition states that Jesus was just like us. Paul speaks of the same thing in Hebrew 2:17 - 18, it states:
"Therefore, he had to be made like his brethren in all things, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propiations for the sins of the people. For since he himself was tempted in that which he has suffered, he is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted

 

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #342 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 04:58:02 »
Author 2:

Philippians 2:6-8
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/philippians-2-6-8

2. After saying that Christ was in the form of God, Philippians 2:6 goes on to say that Christ “did not consider equality with God something to be grasped” (NIV). This phrase is a powerful argument against the Trinity. If Jesus were God, then it would make no sense at all to say that he did not “grasp” at equality with God because no one grasps at equality with himself. It only makes sense to compliment someone for not seeking equality when he is not equal. Some Trinitarians say, “Well, he was not grasping for equality with the Father.” That is not what the verse says. It says Christ did not grasp at equality with God, which makes the verse nonsense if he were God.

3. We agree with the Kenotic theologians who say that dual nature theology does not allow Christ’s humanity to be expressed, and that it creates a “being” who is really an aberration and “fundamentally not one of us.” However, we also agree with the orthodox Trinitarians who take the biblical stance that God is not a man, and that God cannot change. We assert that it is Trinitarian doctrine that has caused these problems, and that there simply is no solution to them as long as one holds a Trinitarian position. We assert that the real solution is to realize that there is only one True God, the Father, and that Jesus Christ is the “man accredited by God” who has now been made “both Lord and Christ” (Acts 2:22 and 36). Then Christ is fully man and is “one of us,” and God is God and has never changed or been a man.

4. While Trinitarians have argued among themselves about the meaning of Philippians 2:6-8, an unfortunate thing has occurred—the loss of the actual meaning of the verse. The verse is not speaking either of Christ’s giving up his “Godhood” at his incarnation or of his God-nature being willing to “hide” so that his man-nature can show itself clearly. Rather, it is saying something else. Scripture says Christ was the “image of God” (2 Cor. 4:4), and Jesus himself testified that if one had seen him, he had seen the Father. Saying that Christ was in the “form” (outward appearance) of God is simply stating that truth in another way. Unlike Adam, who grasped at being like God (Gen. 3:5), Christ, the Last Adam, “emptied himself” of all his reputation and the things due him as the true child of the King. He lived in the same fashion as other men. He humbled himself to the Word and will of God. He lived by “It is written” and the commands of his Father. He did not “toot his own horn,” but instead called himself “the son of man,” which, in the Aramaic language he spoke, meant “a man.” He trusted God and became obedient, even to a horrible and shameful death on a cross.

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #343 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 06:43:52 »
Red Stated:

Here's where you, Kenneth and BTR constantly repeat the same error over and over again. I have never said that God was Jesus Christ, the reason being is that he IS NOT. God is a Spirit, PERIOD. He always has been and always will be, that cannot ever change, NEVER.



Nevertheless, the same scriptures DO clearly teach that Jesus Christ was BOTH the Son of man and the Son of God, MAKING HIME EQUAL with God.


My Response:


Christ is the son of God, true.  So how can he be equal with God if he is not God?  There is only one God and he is equal only to himself. 

Isa 40:18 (NIV) With whom, then, will you compare God? To what image (includes Col 1:15 below) will you liken him?

Col 1:15 Who (Christ) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn (of rank, also of order in the new creation) of every creature:

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.




Red said:

The word of God clearly teaches that the Word that was from the beginning which was God, was INCARNATE in human flesh, meaning that God who is a Spirit was manifest in the likeness of sinful flesh for sin to condemned sin in the flesh.

If the scriptures do not teach this, then words have no meaning and it is impossible to have a real meaningful communication between man and man.

My Response:

The first part is true, the second part is absolutely not.

The Word is the spirit of God and is God.  The mind of God is God.  Both are spirit and cannot be seen.  They are of different sides of the same coin. I went over that before.  Yes God was manifested in flesh.  The first was in the man Christ.  Man is made in the image of God, who is Christ.  Christ is the express image of God.  Man is made in that image of God, who is Christ.  Christ is superior to his church, but is not equal to God, like the church (sons of God) are not equal to God.

Red Stated:

Here's where you, Kenneth and BTR constantly repeat the same error over and over again. I have never said that God was Jesus Christ, the reason being is that he IS NOT. God is a Spirit, PERIOD. He always has been and always will be, that cannot ever change, NEVER.

My Response:

True, but God is only one person.  The son of man is not God, for he is both spirit and man.  His human spirit or soul is bonded as one with God, so Christ is not God.

Red stated:


Nevertheless, the same scriptures DO clearly teach that Jesus Christ was BOTH the Son of man and the Son of God, MAKING HIME EQUAL with God.


My Comment:

Christ is the son of God, true.  So how can he be equal with God if he is not God?  There is only one God and he is equal only to himself. 

Isa 40:18 (NIV) With whom, then, will you compare God? To what image will you liken him?

Col 1:15 Who (Christ) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.




Red said:

The word of God clearly teaches that the Word that was from the beginning which was God, was INCARNATE in human flesh, meaning that God who is a Spirit was manifest in the likeness of sinful flesh for sin to condemned sin in the flesh.

If the scriptures do not teach this, then words have no meaning and it is impossible to have a real meaningful communication between man and man.

My Response:

The Word is the spirit of God and is God.  The mind of God is God.  Both are spirit and are one and the same and cannot be seen.  I went over that before.  Yes, God’s spirit was in flesh.  His spirit was in the prophets first.  Christ, on the other hand is the express image of God of God in mind, soul, body and holy spirit.  Christ's body is bonded to his mind and soul.  His mind and soul is bonded to God's spirit.  So Christ is bonded to God in mind, soul, and body. Man is to be made in that image of God, who is Christ.  Christ is superior to his church, but is not equal to God, like the church (sons of God) are not equal to God.  Christ is the firstborn (in rank and in order) of the new creation (Col 1:15).

Man is to be made in that image of the second Adam.

1 Cor 15:45 (NIV) So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.








Red said:

The doctrine of Christ as preached by the holy apostles declare plainly that Jesus Christ in his complex natures is BOTH man and God, and that God's Son is the TRUE God and eternal life, because LIFE is IN HIM JUST as it is IN his Father~for they are of the SAME essence, glory, and ALL that make up Divinity as God. the I'AM THAT I'AM according to the prophet Isaiah:

My Response:

See my two posts below.  If you cannot see that you are wrong, so be it, that is your problem. 


Isaiah 9:6,7~"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Christ came as God’s son and agent:  I went over that before and is one of my posts above.  If you look you can find it.

« Reply #302 on: Sat May 19, 2018 - 13:06:13 »

This post on page 9 will also answer your question:  You still haven’t responded to it as you said you would.

If you think the Messiah is equal with God, please tell me what you think these passages below that I posted mean in conjunction with each other? 

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 because he (God) hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man (Christ) whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:


1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he (Christ) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (God) that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

John 17:33 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


RB, please reconcile the two verses below:


God says in Exodus 20:4 not to make an image (not just graven image) of anything to be worship as God.
   
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Christ is the image of the invisible and only true God.  We should not worship any image as God.  Yet, you insist on worshipping Christ as God.  Why?
 

Heb 2:11 For both he (Christ) that sanctifieth and they (church)  who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 Saying, I (Christ) will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I (Christ) sing praise unto thee. 13 And again, I (Christ) will put my trust in him (God). And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Explain what this means to you.   



Red said:

The doctrine of Christ as preached by the holy apostles declare plainly that Jesus Christ in his complex natures is BOTH man and God, and that God's Son is the TRUE God and eternal life, because LIFE is IN HIM JUST as it is IN his Father~for they are of the SAME essence, glory, and ALL that make up Divinity as God. the I'AM THAT I'AM according to the prophet Isaiah:

My Response:

See my two posts below.  If you cannot see that you are wrong, so be it, that is your problem. 



Offline 4WD

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #344 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 07:13:11 »
It is a terrible thing to reject the very being that gave himself as a ransom for you.  If you reject the divinity of the Messiah you reject the very basis for your salvation for no lessor than the divine could possibly serve as the redeemer.  And just as it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin (Heb 10:4), it is also not possible for the blood of a mere man to take away sin.

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #345 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 07:18:41 »
It is a terrible thing to reject the very being that gave himself as a ransom for you.  If you reject the divinity of the Messiah you reject the very basis for your salvation for no lessor than the divine could possibly serve as the redeemer.  And just as it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin (Heb 10:4), it is also not possible for the blood of a mere man to take away sin.

 ::amen!::

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #346 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 07:40:48 »
Quote from: 4WD on Today at 07:13:11
It is a terrible thing to reject the very being that gave himself as a ransom for you.  If you reject the divinity of the Messiah you reject the very basis for your salvation for no lessor than the divine could possibly serve as the redeemer.  And just as it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin (Heb 10:4), it is also not possible for the blood of a mere man to take away sin.

My Response:

1 Cor 15:21  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.


::amen!::


My Response:

http://www.renewedminds2purehearts.com/uploads/5/8/3/6/5836053/amen_or_amein.pdf


Amen or Amein?
The Hebrew of the First Covenant [Old Testament] reveals to us that the Scriptural Hebrew word (which means: so be it, or verily or surely) is "Amein" (Phonetic Spelling is “aw-mane”) and not "Amen". Anyone can confirm this in Strong’s Concordance, No 543 in its Hebrew Lexicon, or in Aaron Pick's Dictionary of Old Testament Words for English Readers. I personally write it as “Ahmein” – it sounds exactly the same as the phonetic spelling and does NOT ALTER the word, nor does it alter the pronunciation of the word!
The letters “ah” appears TWICE in Almighty Father Y-ah-u-ah’s Name and ONCE in Messiah Y-ah-u-sh-a’s Name! In them everything is established (so be it)!
Why then, has this Scriptural word "Amein" been rendered as "Amen" in our versions? Again we can see how the pagans have been made welcome, been conciliated, by adopting the name of pagan deity into the Church.
The Egyptians, including the Alexandrians, had been worshipping, or been acquainted with, the head of the Egyptian pantheon, Amen-Ra, the great Sun-deity, for more than 1 000 years, B.C.E. Before this deity became known as Amenra – he was only known as Amen among the Thebians. This substitution of "Amen" for "Amein" was greatly facilitated by the fact that this Egyptian deity's name was spelt in Egyptian hieroglyphic language with only three letters: AMN.
On the other hand, the Egyptian deity AMN is rendered by various sources as AMEN, or AMUN, or as AMON. However, the most reliable Egyptologists and archaeologists, such as Sir E.A. Wallis Budge, Dr. A.B. Cook, Prof. A Wiedemann, Sir W.M.F. Petrie, and A.W. Shorter, as well as some authoritative dictionaries, all render the name of this Egyptian deity as AMEN. This AMEN was originally the Theban "hidden god who is in heaven" -- "the hidden one, probably meaning hidden sun". Funk and Wagnalls, Standard College Dictionary, describes it, "AMEN: In Egyptian mythology, the god of life and procreation... later identified with the Sun-god as the supreme deity, and called 'Amen-Ra'.
"James Bonwick, Egyptian Belief and Modern Thought”, repeatedly and frankly calls the Sun-deity of Egypt by its correct name: AMEN. He states on pp. 123-125, "AMEN ... is in a sense, the chief deity of Egypt - supreme divinity. Whatever else he is, he must be accepted as the sun ... the hidden god, the solar aspect is clear ... there is the disk of the sun ... the sun Amen ... His identification with Ba’al ... establishes him as a solar deity


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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #347 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 08:21:24 »
Quote from: 4WD on Today at 07:13:11
It is a terrible thing to reject the very being that gave himself as a ransom for you.  If you reject the divinity of the Messiah you reject the very basis for your salvation for no lessor than the divine could possibly serve as the redeemer.  And just as it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin (Heb 10:4), it is also not possible for the blood of a mere man to take away sin.

My Response:

1 Cor 15:21  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

I do not deny that Jesus was a man.  He was a very special man.  He was fully human; He was fully divine.  Divine means He was in his very being God.  He was God the Son.  Clearly John 1:1-3 speaks of Jesus Christ.  And you reject that and that is a real pity; that rejection is a real shame.

Offline soterion

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #348 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 09:53:58 »
When we read in the Bible that God is one, or that there is one God, what are we to understand?

Deuteronomy 6:4.
"Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah:" (ASV)

“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." (ESV)

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" (NAS)

The word "one" is not being used to define the numerical composition or personality of God, but rather to point out that there is no other God for man to look for. There is a difference in those two concepts. Here is how the Stone Edition Tanach translates Deuteronomy 6:4 as follows:

"Hear O Israel, HASHEM is our God, HASHEM is the One and Only."

The emphasis is simply that there is no other God for Israel.

In scripture, Jesus is called God and He is described as God, but the naysayers want to focus only on the passages that make a distinction between the Father and the Son. The Bible does not contradict; if a Bible does, then that is a problem with that translation. Otherwise, study so as to let the scriptures harmonize, rather than trying to nullify this scripture with that scripture.

When the apostle says in John 1:1-3 & 14 that Jesus is the Creator of all and that He Himself was not created, then why not accept that He is the Creator? Only God can create, and Isaiah 44:24 says Jehovah did it all alone. Was He all alone or not? I say yes, and He who created all things alone was later born in the flesh and named Jesus.

1 John 5:20.
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Pretty much all conservative scholarship, including Greek scholarship, says the antecedent to "this is the true God and eternal life" points to "Jesus Christ." Apart from the Greek, the context easily tells us what we need to know about Jesus. John is warning his readers to guard themselves from idols and reject the heretics who deny Jesus, but rather to trust in Him who gives eternal life (1 John 1:1-2). Eternal life can only be given by God. If Jesus is not God, then He can't be a source of eternal life in any way.

2 Peter 1:11.
for in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

It is easy to see that "Lord" and "Savior" both describe "Jesus Christ." We have one definite article, "of the" (not spelled out in the English) and one conjunction, "and" which unite the two descriptors to Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 1:1.
Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Titus 2:13.
waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

The Greek in 2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13 is exactly the same as in 2 Peter 1:11 with regard to the descriptions of Jesus Christ.

Philippians 2:5-8.
Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross.

This could not be said of anyone but God. If Jesus was not God, then Paul could not have written this about Him.

To say that 1 Corinthians 8:6 and Ephesians 4:4-6, and other such passages, teach that there is one singular God and that He is the Father and the Father alone, would be to say in those contexts that there is one singular Lord and that He is Jesus and Jesus alone. Further, going by this reasoning, if Jesus is not God and should be barred from being called God, then the Father is not Lord and should be barred from being called Lord. Such is contrary to sound reasoning. Of course the Father can be called Lord, just as Jesus can be called God, per the above.

Again, I believe anyway, the word "one" is not being used to describe the numerical composition of God, but rather to emphasize that there is no other God who created all things and who blesses all who come to Him in faith. That God is One is similar to a husband and wife being one flesh. The Oneness of God defines the absolute unity and bond between the persons that are described in scripture as God. I believe the purpose of such wording about "one God" is not to define what God consists of numerically, but rather to keep people focused on Jesus for salvation and to not be led astray.

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #349 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 10:28:04 »
Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.