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Author Topic: How can Jesus Christ be God?  (Read 16102 times)

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Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #350 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 11:29:37 »
Quote
1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Pretty much all conservative scholarship, including Greek scholarship, says the antecedent to "this is the true God and eternal life" points to "Jesus Christ.
"


MARK: Inability to let John speak for himself.

1John 5:18 We know that whosoever is BORN OF GOD sinneth
        not; but he that is BEGOTTEN OF GOD keepeth himself,
        and that wicked one toucheth him not.

    John 1:18 No man hath SEEN GOD at any time;
                the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON
                which is in the bosom [LOVE] of the Father,
                HE hath DECLARED HIM

     THIS IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD IS MADE KNOWN BY HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON

1John 5:19 And we know THAT WE ARE OF GOD
        and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
        And we know that the SON OF GOD is come,
         and hath given us an UNDERSTANDING,

1 John 5:20 THAT
       we MAY KNOW HIM THAT IS TRUE (GOD)
        and we are IN HIM THAT IS TRUE
                Even IN HIS SON JESUS CHRIST
      This is the TRUE GOD, and eternal life.

THE antecedent of the TRUE GOD is HIS SON JESUS CHRIST!

Why would the Holy Spirit be ignorant--as asserted--to say that Jesus is the SON of the only TRUE GOD.

THE TRUE GOD IS MADE KNOWN TO US BY HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #350 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 11:29:37 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #351 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 11:33:43 »
Quote
Romans 9:5  Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

Rom. 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren,
       my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom. 9:4 Who are Israelites;
        to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,
        and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom. 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as
        concerning the FLESH Christ came, who is over all,
        God blessed for ever. Amen.

SO, Paul guided by Jesus of Nazareth now in the form of HOLY SPIRIT was too ignorant to say, as you

Rom. 1:1 Paul, a servant of JESUS CHRIST, called to be an apostle,
        separated unto the gospel of GOD,
Rom. 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
Rom. 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which
         was MADE of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom. 1:4 And DECLARED to be the Son of God with power, 
         according to the spirit of holiness,
         by the resurrection from the dead:

According to Jesus it is blasphemy to say that He was God or Equal to God when HE always claimed to be the SON OF GOD.


« Last Edit: Tue May 22, 2018 - 11:41:14 by Kenneth Sublett »

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #351 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 11:33:43 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #352 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 11:52:48 »
Quote
2 Peter 1:11.for in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

It is easy to see that "Lord" and "Savior" both describe "Jesus Christ." We have one definite article, "of the" (not spelled out in the English) and one conjunction, "and" which unite the two descriptors to Jesus Christ.

Jesus is our LORD AND SAVIOUR but He is not the LORD (yhwh) of Hebrew.  Jesus is a KURIOS

2Pet. 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ,
         to them that have obtained like precious faith with us
         through the righteousness of God  [Theos or YHWH]
         AND
         our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 PETER 1:11 reads:

2Pet. 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly
      into the everlasting kingdom of our LORD (Kurios not Theos] and Saviour Jesus Christ.

g4990. r soter, so-tare´; from 4982; a deliverer, i.e. God or Christ: — saviour.

1Tim. 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation,
         that Christ Jesus came into the WORLD [Kosmos, Ecumenical, Kingdom of the Devil]
         to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #352 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 11:52:48 »

Online 4WD

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #353 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 12:33:06 »
Jesus is our LORD AND SAVIOUR but He is not the LORD (yhwh) of Hebrew.  Jesus is a KURIOS
Thr LXX equates the two.

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #353 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 12:33:06 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #354 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 12:49:01 »
Guess that I missed out on that Septuagint New Testament!!

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #354 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 12:49:01 »



Offline fish153

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #355 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 13:45:29 »
Kenneth mentioned these verses:

2Pet. 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ,
         to them that have obtained like precious faith with us
         through the righteousness of God  [Theos or YHWH]
         AND
         our Saviour Jesus Christ:


You know what I find extremely interesting about this verse?  The very beginning--the first words in the verse.  Notice how Peter says "a servant and an apostle of Jesus
Christ
"---funny how we readily accept that Peter is saying he is BOTH a servant and an apostle of Jesus.  The word "and" does not split this to mean that Peter is
saying that he is a servant by occupation, and separately an Apostle of Jesus Christ.  No---we realize he is stating that he is BOTH a servant and an Apostle of Jesus Christ.

But though Kenneth will accept that he will try to split what Peter is saying about Jesus--- He is a Savior, but He is not God--even though the sentence says "Through the
righteousness of God and Our Savior...."


Why are you willing to allow the "and" when Peter refers to himself, but change the "and" when referring to Jesus Christ?  Heresy jumps through hoops to accomplish it's teachings.
« Last Edit: Tue May 22, 2018 - 13:48:27 by fish153 »

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #355 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 13:45:29 »

Offline BTR

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #356 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 15:54:42 »
to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.  -Rom. 9:5 RSV


And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the {only} true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. -Jhn.17:3

Offline fish153

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #357 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 16:04:21 »
"We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life". (1 John 5:20)

I am the way, the truth and THE LIFE"  (John 14:6)

Offline BTR

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #358 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 16:22:28 »
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding,
to know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in {his} Son Jesus Christ.
This is the true God and eternal life.


And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the {only} true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. -Jhn.17:3


Now an intermediary implies more than one; but God is one.  -Gal.3:20

You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder. -Jas.2:19






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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #358 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 16:22:28 »

Offline soterion

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #359 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 16:24:10 »
to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.  -Rom. 9:5 RSV


And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the {only} true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. -Jhn.17:3

"We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life". (1 John 5:20)

I am the way, the truth and THE LIFE"  (John 14:6)

This is another example of pitting scripture against scripture, as if that will make sense.

How about this: can anybody reconcile the two Johannine passages so that there is no contradiction?

Offline fish153

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #360 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 16:30:47 »
soterion--

It isn't pitting scripture against scripture. Jesus Christ CLEARLY SAYS that HE is the way, the truth,and THE LIFE---He doesn't say "MY father is the way, the truth and the life" does he?  The true God and eternal life is Jesus Christ.

"And THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, and the WORD WAS GOD" (JOHN 1:1)   The Father sent the Son to die for us.  'before Abraham was I AM[/b]" (John 8:58)

Offline fish153

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #361 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 16:47:45 »
"But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name". (John 20:31)

Think of how the Gospel of John begins. "In the beginning was THE WORD, and THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, and THE WORD WAS GOD". (John 1:1)

"And THE WORD BECAME FLESH and dwelt among us" (John 1:14)

This is clearly stating that God was incarnated into human flesh.  What does it mean to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the SON OF GOD?  After reading this Gospel
can we come to the conclusion that Jesus was just a man---or maybe an angel---or a created being?  Think of the book of John----what is Jesus constantly sayingI AM.
I am the bread of life, I am the water of life, I am the light of the world, I am the way, the truth and the life, I am the resurrection and the life, etc.

And in the book of John we have Nathanael calling Jesus THE KING OF ISRAEL, and we have Thomas proclaiming "MY LORD AND MY GOD" (John 20:28)

What I will state will most likely not be received gladly. BUT, if you can read through the Gospel of John sincerely, and carefully, you cannot but come to the conclusion that Jesus
Christ is God.  And that is what John 20:31 is proclaiming.

This is the last post I will make defending the deity of Jesus Christ.  But I cannot leave without warning one more time the SERIOUSNESS of rejecting the Deity of Christ:

http://jesusalive.cc/ques36.htm   I hope with all my heart you can open your eyes.

Offline BTR

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #362 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 16:57:15 »
Fish says; "The true God and eternal life is Jesus Christ."

Jesus says; "“And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the {only} true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. -Jhn.17:3

Scary thing is that Jesus says knowing this information is eternal life.


Jesus answered, "If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is your God.
But you have not known him; I know him. If I said, I do not know him, I should be a liar like you; but I do know him and I keep his word.

Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad."
  -Jhn8:54-56

Offline soterion

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #363 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 17:18:19 »
soterion--

It isn't pitting scripture against scripture. Jesus Christ CLEARLY SAYS that HE is the way, the truth,and THE LIFE---He doesn't say "MY father is the way, the truth and the life" does he?  The true God and eternal life is Jesus Christ.

"And THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, and the WORD WAS GOD" (JOHN 1:1)   The Father sent the Son to die for us.  'before Abraham was I AM[/b]" (John 8:58)

If all somebody does is quote scripture without showing how it fits with the passages being used by an opponent, then pitting scripture against scripture is exactly what it is.

Offline fish153

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #364 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 18:11:40 »
soterion---

I showed you exactly how it fit with the passage he was using.  He is stating that eternal life is  to know the True God and Jesus Christ (not God)
whom he has sent.  I am stating and showing that Jesus states clearly that HE HIMSELF IS ETERNAL LFE---- "i AM the way, the truth, and THE LIFE"

I don't know how to put it more clearly.

Offline soterion

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #365 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 20:50:02 »
soterion---

I showed you exactly how it fit with the passage he was using.  He is stating that eternal life is  to know the True God and Jesus Christ (not God)
whom he has sent.  I am stating and showing that Jesus states clearly that HE HIMSELF IS ETERNAL LFE---- "i AM the way, the truth, and THE LIFE"

I don't know how to put it more clearly.

I apologize. I was referring to my Reply #359. It looked like the focus was on who the true God is.

That is what I meant by just quoting the passages at each other and no attempt to reconcile them. If we can't show how both passages are true, then they will just be used against each other to support whichever view a person is believing. The debate just gets stalemated with each side declaring the other side as stubborn...or worse.

I did share some time ago how I believe both passages can be reconciled in their particular contexts, but you can see what good those posts did. I posted earlier today in another attempt to reconcile both viewpoints from another perspective, but... ::shrug::

It seems that some folks want to argue just for the sake of arguing. I had read some time ago from F.F. Bruce that the Greeks liked to argue just to argue, with finding a solution hardly being a goal. The Jews, on the other hand, argued for the express purpose of finding a solution.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #366 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 21:10:01 »
2Pet. 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle
       Of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith
       with us through the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God
       and our SAVIOUR Jesus Christ:


       2Pet. 3:18 But grow in grace, and
              in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
              To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen

We have obtained FAITH provided by the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God and DELIVERED by Jesus Christ.

Verse two follows the same sequence:

NOTICE THAT VERSE TWO SAVES BELIEVERS FROM BLASPHEMY.

2Pet. 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you
        through the KNOWLEDGE of GOD,
        and [Knowledge) OF Jesus our Lord


God is THEOS and Lord is KURIOS which is not Deity-Specific.  Jesus of Nazareth was born IN THE FLESH 30 years before GOD MADE HIM TO BE BOTH LORD AND CHRIST.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
       that God [Theos] hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified,
       both Lord [Kurios] and Christ. [Messiah0
Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks,
        repentance toward God, [Theos]
        AND faith
        toward our Lord [Kurios] Jesus Christ.

Rom. 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived,
       THAT HE MIGHT BE Lord both of the dead and living.

Online 4WD

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #367 on: Wed May 23, 2018 - 06:30:23 »
Guess that I missed out on that Septuagint New Testament!!
Sublett, it is obvious that you have missed out on a lot of New Testament.

Offline fish153

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #368 on: Wed May 23, 2018 - 10:11:22 »
soterion----

Thanks----God bless you!

Offline soterion

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #369 on: Wed May 23, 2018 - 10:14:13 »
soterion----

Thanks----God bless you!

Thank you, too, fish153. ::smile::

Offline Michael2012

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #370 on: Wed May 23, 2018 - 10:22:38 »
Rom. 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren,
       my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom. 9:4 Who are Israelites;
        to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,
        and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom. 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as
        concerning the FLESH Christ came, who is over all,
        God blessed for ever. Amen.

SO, Paul guided by Jesus of Nazareth now in the form of HOLY SPIRIT was too ignorant to say, as you

Rom. 1:1 Paul, a servant of JESUS CHRIST, called to be an apostle,
        separated unto the gospel of GOD,
Rom. 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
Rom. 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which
         was MADE of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom. 1:4 And DECLARED to be the Son of God with power, 
         according to the spirit of holiness,
         by the resurrection from the dead:

According to Jesus it is blasphemy to say that He was God or Equal to God when HE always claimed to be the SON OF GOD.



“According to the flesh”. What do you think why Paul have to say that concerning Jesus with regards the matter of him being the seed of David (Rom. 1:3)?

And also what do you think why Paul have to say, on the matter of Jesus’ coming from the fathers, to being in the flesh (Rom 9:5)?
« Last Edit: Wed May 23, 2018 - 10:54:01 by Michael2012 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #371 on: Wed May 23, 2018 - 11:55:43 »
Quote
And also what do you think why Paul have to say, on the matter of Jesus’ coming from the fathers, to being in the flesh (Rom 9:5)?

Rom. 9:1  I say the truth in Christ, I lie not,
        my conscience also bearing me witness
        in the Holy Ghost,
Rom. 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom. 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren,
        my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom. 9:4 Who are Israelites;
        to whom pertaineth the adoption,
        and the glory, and the covenants,
        and the giving of the law,
        and the service of God,
        and the promises;
Rom. 9:5 Whose are the fathers,
        and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
        who is over all,
        GOD BLESSED for ever. Amen.

God didn't come in the flesh.  The passage says that Jesus of Nazareth Who came in the FLESH is GOD BLESSED FOR EVER.

Jesus IS GOD BLESSED which proves that Jesus in the flesh is not God who BLESSES them

Gen. 25:11 And it came to pass after the death of Abraham,
        that GOD BLESSED his son Isaac; and Isaac dwelt by the well Lahairoi.
Gen. 9:1 And GOD BLESSED Noah and his sons, and said unto them,
        Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
1Chr. 26:5 Ammiel the sixth, Issachar the seventh, Peulthai the eighth:
        for GOD BLESSED.

Jesus was GOD BLESSED

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #372 on: Wed May 23, 2018 - 12:08:18 »
Quote
“According to the flesh”. What do you think why Paul have to say that concerning Jesus with regards the matter of him being the seed of David (Rom. 1:3)?

I'm not sure about Paul's motives. However, many Jews who attended synagogue as they did in Rome had to be convinced that Jesus of Nazareth was that Promised Messiah.

We have some recorded history of the synagogue in Rome long before Paul.  Romans 14 is aware of the many religious sects in Rome and silences everyone who cannot edify or educate from Scripture. In Romans 15 He silences self pleasure.  Whatever reasons for local societies to come together, the synagogue befinning in the wilderness was:

Rom. 15:4 For whatsoever things were
         written aforetime were written for our learning,
         that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Rom. 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation
        grant you to be likeminded one toward another
        according to Christ Jesus:
Rom. 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God,
         even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their RULERS,
        because they knew him not,
        nor yet the voices of the prophets
        which are READ every sabbath day,
        they have fulfilled them in condemning him

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time
        hath in every city them that preach him,
        being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

The Gnostics were alive and well at that time to said that Jesus was not the MESSIAH but that He was GOD IN THE FLESH.  Many also believed that Jesus didn't come in the flesh but that He was some kind of spirit entity.


« Last Edit: Wed May 23, 2018 - 12:12:43 by Kenneth Sublett »

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #373 on: Sat May 26, 2018 - 05:53:07 »
Soterion---

Your post below is absolutely correct. "He who denies that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God" (1 John).  He is not talking about someone who doesn't believe Jesus was ever born, or that Jesus was just a spirit.

He is stating something extremely important----those who deny the deity of Christ. The "false teachers" "deny the Lord who bought them". Those,  like Charles Taze Russell and Judge Rutherford (the two first leaders of the Jehovah's Witnesses) who leave the truth and reveal they were never born-again believers are being referred to here.

This very denial reveals that they do not have the Spirit, and are with the spirit of Antichrist. They are easily identified. "Whom do you say that I am"? becomes a very seruious test. Who do they say Jesus is? Was He THE WORD (God the SON) become flesh?

Thank you for bringing that up--- it is an important spiritual question and test.

My Response:



1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Comment: Nowhere in heaven and in earth does it say that the Word was the so called God the Son.  God the son comes from the tower of babel where it is said that after Nimrod died, he became the son in his mother's womb.  Thus, the father became the son.  I will get back to that later on my other thread. 

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Comment: Notice it says "Jesus Christ" and not "God" is come in the flesh.

First, what is the meaning of Jesus Christ.

Webster’s New 20th Century Dictionary of the English Language (Cleveland: World Publishing Co., 1968), unabridged, sets forth a comparable definition, noting that the Latin-Greek derivation from the Hebrew Joshua (Jesus) means literally, “help of Jehovah

What of the word Christ? It also comes to the English-speaking world from Middle English, derived from the Latin Christus, in turn from the Greek Christos, which meant “the Anointed”—a noun made from the past participle of the Greek verb “to anoint”.

Webster also states that the word Christ was originally Jesus’ title. Thus, proper usage of the two words in English would be Jesus the Christ. Usage and revelation have joined the two as part of a sacred, revered name.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:  3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Rom. 1:3… Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which  was MADE of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Comment: So the help of Yahweh was the anointed of Yahweh, namely the man Christ. 1 John 4:1-2 does not say that God came in the flesh, it says that Jesus Christ, God’s anointed for salvation commission or sent by God was made flesh from the outset of the seed of David.  How can you have Christ made a man of the seed of David and God becoming man at the same time? Nope!  How can you say the so called God the son who was from eternity became the son of God two thousand years ago.  Nope!

The Word is the invisible spirit of God and is not Christ.  God is mind and spirit, or spirit is mind and mind is spirit.  So, God is one.  God is not flesh, nor ever became flesh.   See my posts (reply 3, 4, and 5) under the thread, “Who and what is God”, page 1.  If you want to discuss it more, why not go there?   

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh (body and soul)  is flesh; and that which is born of the spirit is spirit.


John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


Offline Truthcomber

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #374 on: Sat May 26, 2018 - 06:03:06 »
To say that the almighty God became a fleshly man is blasphemy in its highest order.  The pope of Rome says that he takes the place of God on earth.  That's what antichrist means.  It means God becoming man or man becoming God, that is against the man Christ.   

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #375 on: Sat May 26, 2018 - 07:03:31 »
To say that the almighty God became a fleshly man is blasphemy in its highest order. 
Truthcomber, just about everything you have said about Jesus Christ in this and other topics is blasphemy in it highest order.  Your denial of the person and divine being of Jesus Christ is an anathema.

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #376 on: Sat May 26, 2018 - 07:25:19 »
I won't lose any sleep over your dumb remarks

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #377 on: Sat May 26, 2018 - 07:37:07 »
The dumb remarks here is your seriously false theology.  Look up the word "false" in the thesaurus and you will find words like bogus, deceitful, dishonest, distorted, erroneous, fake, fanciful, faulty, fictitious, fraudulent, improper,  inaccurate,     incorrect, invalid, misleading, mistaken, phony, specious, spurious, unfounded, etc.

Pick one, pick them all; they are all descriptive of your beliefs concerning the person, the work and the deity of Jesus Christ.

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #378 on: Sat May 26, 2018 - 07:45:20 »
Soterian wrote:

Reply #348 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 09:53:58 »
When we read in the Bible that God is one, or that there is one God, what are we to understand?

Deuteronomy 6:4.
"Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah:" (ASV)

“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." (ESV)

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" (NAS)

The word "one" is not being used to define the numerical composition or personality of God, but rather to point out that there is no other God for man to look for. There is a difference in those two concepts. Here is how the Stone Edition Tanach translates Deuteronomy 6:4 as follows:

"Hear O Israel, HASHEM is our God, HASHEM is the One and Only."

The emphasis is simply that there is no other God for Israel.




My Response: “One and Only” means there is only one God In number and “no other God” to look for”.  One means the number one in the original Hebrew.  Click on the link below and see,   
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/259.htm

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isa 44:8 Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Neh 9:6 Thou, even thou, art LORD (God) alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.

Comment:
Yes, the almighty was alone, and Christ was not with him.  God created all through his word or spirit. 


Soterian wrote:

In scripture, Jesus is called God and He is described as God, but the naysayers want to focus only on the passages that make a distinction between the Father and the Son. The Bible does not contradict; if a Bible does, then that is a problem with that translation. Otherwise, study so as to let the scriptures harmonize, rather than trying to nullify this scripture with that scripture.

When the apostle says in John 1:1-3 & 14 that Jesus is the Creator of all and that He Himself was not created, then why not accept that He is the Creator? Only God can create, and Isaiah 44:24 says Jehovah did it all alone. Was He all alone or not? I say yes, and He who created all things alone was later born in the flesh and named Jesus.




My Response:


Col 1:16 (NIV) For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

2 Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ

Comment: God (who was alone before Christ) in Christ created all things.
 
John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up… 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit (word) of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Comment: Christ spoke the words of his father in him in John 2:19.  God in Christ raised Christ (body and soul) from the dead by the spirit (God) that dwells in Christ. 


Colossians1:15-19 - Jesus: Co-Creator of the New Creation - Dustin Smith and J. Dan Gill
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSELJc6WHP0

Col 1:15 (NIV) The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.  19 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

2 Cor 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

1sa 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

John 5:26
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

1 Cor 15:45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.   

Comment: Christ did not have inherit life in himself until God raised him from the dead and gave it to him.

Offline RB

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #379 on: Sat May 26, 2018 - 07:46:50 »
1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
God who is a Spirit is indeed the head of Christ as far as his humanity~but you are a heretic in your understanding of the complex natures of Jesus Christ, by denying the Divinity of Jesus Christ of being THE True God. You make Jesus a false prophet by your teachings of denying Jesus' Divinity. Jesus plainly taught that He was BEFORE Abraham....
Quote from: Jesus
John 8:58~Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
You tell me in what sense was Jesus before Abraham? For he certainly was before him AND after him~BOTH are true. You men deny scripture after scriptures to support your heresies.
Quote from: Truthcomber Today at 05:53:07
Nowhere in heaven and in earth does it say that the Word was the so called God the Son.
Fully agree, nevertheless, the Word which WAS GOD was manifest in the likeness of sinful flesh in the PERSON of Jesus of Nazareth, who WAS God's only begotten Son.
Quote
John 1:1~In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
and John went on to said:
Quote from: John
John 1:14~And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
You reject and deny this truth of the Godhead. You are a heretic.
Quote from: Truthcomber Today at 05:53:07
God the son comes from the tower of babel where it is said that after Nimrod died, he became the son in his mother's womb.
God's Son comes from the testimony of heaven...God himself. Now you can God a liar if it is your desire to suffer the second death, for if one rejects the doctrine of Christ he, in fact, calls God a liar.
Quote from: John, who taught the most on the Sonship of Jesus Christ
2nd John~"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:"
You quoted:
Quote from: Truthcomber Today at 05:53:07
1 John 4:2,3~Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
and then said in reference to 1st John 4:2,3:
Quote from: Truthcomber Today at 05:53:07
Comment: Notice it says "Jesus Christ" and not "God" is come in the flesh.
True, yet with THAT CONFESSION one is clearly professing to believe the record God has given of his Son. Some of that record is this:
Quote from: Isaiah
Isaiah 9:6,7~"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
We here (on this forum) confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh BASED on the scriptures, two of which are quoted here, YOU deny that Jesus Christ has come in the likeness of sinful flesh according to Isaiah 9:6,7...so you are a deceiver and antichrist just as John said.
Quote from: Truthcomer Today at 05:53:07
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh (body and soul)  is flesh; and that which is born of the spirit is spirit.
Jesus was NOT born of the flesh in the same sense that the first Adam children were that followed him~Jesus was conceived in the likeness of sinful flesh by the power of God.....just as Isaiah said: "The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this"...
Quote from: Isaiah
Isaiah 7:14~"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Immanuel....God WITH US, and indeed Jesus Christ was just that. All of God's children said amen and amen.

The words of Red are ended with you, sir. Job 31:40
« Last Edit: Sat May 26, 2018 - 12:15:25 by RB »

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #380 on: Sat May 26, 2018 - 07:49:01 »
The dumb remarks here is your seriously false theology.  Look up the word "false" in the thesaurus and you will find words like bogus, deceitful, dishonest, distorted, erroneous, fake, fanciful, faulty, fictitious, fraudulent, improper,  inaccurate,     incorrect, invalid, misleading, mistaken, phony, specious, spurious, unfounded, etc.

Pick one, pick them all; they are all descriptive of your beliefs concerning the person, the work and the deity of Jesus Christ.

You are describing yourself. 

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #381 on: Sat May 26, 2018 - 08:22:28 »
Does Peter call Jesus “God” in 2 PETER 1:1?
By David Maas

~ The Issue ~
2 PETER 1:1 is often cited as a passage in which Jesus is explicitly identified as “God” or theos (the
Greek noun). The basis for this claim rests on the validity of the so-called Granville Sharp Rule (see
definition below). The passage reads as follows, first from the New International Version (NIV) and then
from the New American Standard (NAS):
(NIV) “Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and
Saviour Jesus Christ
have received a faith as precious as ours.”
(NAS) “Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as
ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.”
The relevant issue is whether “the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ” (NIV) refers to two
individuals, God and Jesus, or to just one.
The NIV assumes only one being is intended, Jesus Christ, who is
called both “God” and “savior.” The NAS rendering is more explicit inserting a comma after “savior” and
setting “Jesus Christ” in apposition to both “God” and “savior” (there were no such marks of punctuation in
the original Greek).
The justification for taking this clause to refer to Jesus as both “God” and “savior” is a supposed rule of
Greek grammar, the Granville Sharp Rule.[1] The definition of this Rule is that in Greek when two nouns of
the same case are joined by the conjunction kai (“and”) and only the first noun of the pair has the definite
article (i.e., “the”), then both nouns refer to the same subject or person. In the Greek sentence of 2 PETER
1:1 only one definite article is used before “God” (i.e., “the God”). Both “God” and “Jesus Christ” are in the
genitive noun case, masculine gender and singular number. Hence it is concluded that Peter is referring to
one and the same person, indicating that Jesus is identified as both “God” and “savior.”

~ The Validity of the Granville Sharp Rule ~
Granville Sharp was a Nineteenth Century student of scripture and English philanthropist who studied a
narrowly defined aspect of New Testament Greek with the express purpose of proving the deity of Christ. It
was in this endeavor that he “discovered” a previously unknown rule of Greek syntax. It has since been
named the Granville Sharp Rule.[2] Mr. Sharp specifically applied this rule to eight verses purported to
prove the deity of Christ including 2 PETER 1:1 and cited them to demonstrate his Rule’s validity.
Since Mr. Sharp had the specific intent to find characteristics of Greek that prove the deity of Jesus, his
Rule must be viewed with some skepticism. His “discovered” Rule is self-validating. Further, the reasoning
on which it is based is circular since his goal was to find grammatical rules that prove what he already
assumed to be true.

A basic problem is that prior to Mr. Sharp’s “discovery” such a rule was unknown in Greek literature. He
Is Jesus Called "God" in 2 Peter 1:1? http://www.gospeltoallnations.org/Does_Peter_call_Jesus_God_in_2_Pet...
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found a new “rule” of which no earlier Greek scholar or writer was aware going back several thousand years.
Furthermore Greek usage of the definite article as described by Mr. Sharp is inconsistent. Sometimes one
article is used with two nouns connected by the conjunction where two separate persons or things are in view,
while in other places two definite articles (or more) are used.[3]
Numerous New Testament examples can be cited where two nouns with the same case, number and
gender share a single definite article and are joined by the conjunction kai (“and”), yet where two distinct
entities, persons or things are clearly in view. In each of the following examples a single definite article
precedes two nouns of the same case (and gender and number) that are joined by kai. In the first example
(MATTHEW 5:20) a single article is used with both “scribes” and “Pharisees,” both of which are in the
genitive case, plural number and masculine gender. In the gospel accounts “scribes” and “Pharisees” are two
distinct groups and are not identical. Note the following:
MATTHEW 5:20, “The scribes and Pharisees” (tôn grammateôn kai pharisaiôn). Compare same usage in MATTHEW
12:28, 16:6, 16:12, ACTS 23:7.
MATTHEW 3:7, Refers to the “Pharisees and Sadducees” (tôn Pharisaiôn kai Saddoukaiôn).
MATTHEW 2:4, “The chief priests and scribes” (tous archiereis kai grammateis).
EPHESIANS 2:20, Paul refers to “the apostles and prophets” (tôn apostolôn kai prophétôn).
REVELATION 20:11, “The heaven and earth” (ho ouranos kai topos).
MATTHEW 20:18, The Son of Man will be betrayed to “the chief priests and scribes” (archiereusin kai grammateusin).
LUKE 22:4, “The chief priests and officers” (tois archiereusin kai stratégois).
ACTS 15:22, “The Paul and Barnabas” (tô paulô kai barnaba) cp. ACTS 13:2, 12:50.
LUKE 21:12, “The synagogues and prisons” (ta sunagôgas kai phulakas).
JOHN 7:45, “The chief priests and the Pharisees” (tous archiereis kai pharisaious).
JOHN 11:19, Many Jews came to “the Martha and Mary” (tén marthan kai Mariam).
ACTS 19:21, Paul passed through “the Macedonia and Achaia” (tén Makedonian kai Achaian).
REVELATION 17:13, They gave their “power and authority” to the beast (tén dunamin kai exousian).
In the following examples three or more nouns in the same case, gender and number are joined by kai and
share a single definite article. This is not to belabor the point but to emphasize that there is no grammatical
rule consistently followed in the New Testament that conforms to or validates the so-called Granville Sharp
Rule:
MATTHEW 17:1, “The Peter and James and John” (ton Petron kai Iakôbon kai Iôannén). cp. MARK 5:37, LUKE 5:17.
LUKE 2:52, Jesus increased in “the wisdom and stature and grace” (té sophia kai hélikia kai chariti).
ACTS 9:31, Throughout all “the Judea and Galilee and Samaria” (tés Ioudaias kai Galilaias kai Samareias).
ACTS 15:23, To those in “the Antioch and Syria and Cilicia” (tén Antiocheian kai Surian kai Kilikian).
2 CORINTHIANS 12:21, “The uncleanness and fornication and debauchery” (té akatharsia kai porneia kai aselgeia).
EPHESIANS 3:18, What is “the breadth and length and height and depth” (to platos kai mékos kai hupsos kai bathos).
REVELATION 1:9, In “the tribulation and kingdom and endurance” of Jesus (té thlipsei kai Basileia kai hupomoné).
In summary, if the Granville Sharp Rule was valid at the time the New Testament was written its
application by the authors of the New Testament (including Peter) is too inconsistent to conclude 2 PETER
1:1 labels Jesus “God” with any certainty. Furthermore, since Granville Sharp discovered his rule as part of a
concerted effort to find grammatical features that prove the deity of Christ, his conclusions must be viewed as
self serving and suspect.
~ Peter’s Usage in His Epistle ~
Is Jesus Called "God" in 2 Peter 1:1? http://www.gospeltoallnations.org/Does_Peter_call_Jesus_God_in_2_Pet...
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Elsewhere in 2 Peter the author maintains a distinction between God and Jesus (in each of the following
scriptures the NAS is used). In 2 PETER 1:21 Peter expresses his wish that “grace and peace be multiplied to
you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.” In 1:17 he describes the Transfiguration of the earthly
Jesus when “when he received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to
Him by the Majestic Glory, ‘This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased’.” In this second verse a
very clear distinction is made between God and Jesus Christ, the “beloved Son.” Since Peter elsewhere
consistently maintains a distinction between God and Jesus it would be inconsistent if not strange for him to
treat them as a single entity in 2 PETER 1:1. It makes no sense to portray God and Jesus as two distinct
entities or beings and then to describe them as one and the same person in the very next verse.
Also relevant is Peter’s use of the noun “savior.” In 2 PETER 1:1 he refers to Jesus Christ as “savior.”
Elsewhere in his letter he only applies this term to Jesus Christ, never to God or the Father. Note the
following:
2 PETER 1:11, “For in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be
abundantly supplied to you.”
2 PETER 1:21, “For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus
Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.”
2 PETER 3:2, “That you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the
Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles.”
2 PETER 3:18, “But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now
and to the day of eternity. Amen.”
~ Peter’s Usage Elsewhere ~
In his earlier epistle Peter also maintains a clear distinction between God and Jesus Christ. Note the
following verses from 1 Peter (NAS):
(1:2-3) “According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus
Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure. Blessed be the God and Father
of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the
resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.”
(1:17-21) “And if you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each man's work, conduct
yourselves in fear during the time of your stay upon earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like
silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb
unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has
appeared in these last times for the sake of you, “Who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the
dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.”
(2:4-5) “And coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected by men, but choice and precious in the sight of God, you also, as
living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to
God through Jesus Christ.”
(3:18) “For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having
been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.”
(3:21-22), “And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to
God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into
heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.”
(4:11) “Whoever speaks, let him speak, as it were, the utterances of God; whoever serves, let him do so as by the strength
which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and
dominion forever and ever. Amen.”
(5:10) “And after you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in
Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.”
Luke records several of Peter’s sermons in the Book of Acts where he also consistently maintains a
distinction between God and Jesus. Note the following examples (NAS):
Is Jesus Called "God" in 2 Peter 1:1? http://www.gospeltoallnations.org/Does_Peter_call_Jesus_God_in_2_Pet...
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(2:22) “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and
wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know.”
(2:32) “This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.”
(2:36) “Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ-- this Jesus
whom you crucified.”
(3:13) “The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus, the one
whom you delivered up, and disowned in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him.”
(3:20) “And that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you.”
(4:10) “Let it be known to all of you, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom
you crucified, whom God raised from the dead-- by this name this man stands here before you in good health.”
(10:38) “You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He
went about doing good, and healing all who were oppressed by the devil; for God was with Him.”
(11:17) “If God therefore gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who
was I that I could stand in God's way?”
~ The Syntax of 2 PETER 1:1 ~
In 2 PETER 1:1 Simon Peter writes (literal rendering), “to those having obtained faith equally precious to
us, by [a] righteousness of the God of us and of [a] savior, Jesus Christ.” In this clause the plural first person
pronoun “our” or “us” modifies the two words in the genitive case, “the God.” This is a common
construction in Greek using the genitive case to show possession where the definite article is used along with
an accompanying pronoun (“the God of us”). Since this makes for a rough rendering in English modern
translations typically omit the definite article in 2 PETER 1:1 (i.e., “our God” rather than “the God of us”).
The noun “savior” follows the conjunction “and” without a definite article and also in the genitive case.
In Greek proper names and key nouns like “savior” are inherently definite and can be used with or without
the definite article (“the”) as an author wishes. Peter uses “savior” a total of five times in this epistle, always
without the definite article in the Greek and always in reference to Jesus, including verses where Jesus is
clearly distinguished from God (note 1:1, 1:11, 2:20, 3:2, 3:18).
In the final clause of 2 PETER 1:1 “savior” is in ‘apposition’ to “Jesus Christ.” ‘Apposition’ is a
grammatical construction in which two adjacent nouns with the same referent stand in the same syntactical
relation to the rest of a sentence. The word or phrase in ‘apposition’ further defines the word or name with
which it is used. In English this structure is often indicated by the use of a comma as in “Bob, the plumber”
or “Sally Smith, attorney at law.” In the preceding translation a comma is used to indicate this relationship.
In this verse Jesus Christ is the one named “savior,” not God (though elsewhere in scripture God is referred to
as “savior”).
~ A Larger Problem ~
A basic problem with the idea of the deity of Christ is the lack of many direct references to Jesus as
“God” or theos in the New Testament. 2 PETER 1:1 is only one of eight scriptures in the entire New
Testament that at first glance appear to explicitly call Jesus “God” (JOHN 1:1, 1:18, 20:28, ROMANS 9:5,
TITUS 2:13, HEBREWS 1:8, 2 PETER 1:1, 1 JOHN 5:20). This small number of passages where Jesus is at
first glace called “God” is problematic.
The New Testament provides clear evidence of various controversies in the early church. The books of
the New Testament demonstrate the early church’s leadership did not hesitate to confront controversies and
other problems (e.g., Galatians, 1 Corinthians, Jude, 1 John). Because Christianity was an outgrowth of the
faith of Israel and initially a strictly Jewish movement, it is not surprising that some of the conflicts found in
Is Jesus Called "God" in 2 Peter 1:1? http://www.gospeltoallnations.org/Does_Peter_call_Jesus_God_in_2_Pet...
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the New Testament reflect the kinds of disputes one would expect to erupt when the Gospel was opened up to
non-Jews. This included debates over circumcision, Sabbath keeping and Jewish dietary rules.
One of the key objections raised by Jews to the claim of Jesus’ Messiahship was the fact that he had been
crucified. The notion of God’s messiah being executed on a cross by Israel’s greatest enemy, Rome, would
have been viewed by many Jews as a contradiction in terms. After all, did not Israel’s own scriptures teach
that anyone hung on tree was under God’s curse (DEUTERONOMY 21:23, see GALATIANS 3:13)? This
objection is reflected in several passages in the New Testament (e.g., 1 CORINTHIANS 1:23, GALATIANS
5:11).
Missing from the New Testament is any indication of conflict over or objection to the claim that Jesus is
God or that God became a man. While this is an argument from silence, this silence speaks volumes.
Fundamental to the faith of Israel was its strict monotheism. Yahweh alone was God and He alone merited
worship. He was most definitely other than human and could not die. Any claim to deity on the part of
Jesus or his followers would have been highly problematic. Any claim that in Jesus “God became a man,” let
alone died, would have been viewed as blasphemous. If the early church had been actively proclaiming Jesus
to be God devout Jews would have fought this message tooth and nail. Conflicts caused by a claim that Jesus
is God would have necessitated constant and clear teaching in this regard yet we find no evidence of this in
the New Testament.
~Summary ~
In summary, the Granville Sharp Rule used to argue 2 PETER 1:1 is a statement of the deity of Jesus is
invalid. This grammatical rule was “discovered” rather late by a well-intentioned Christian who was
specifically looking for grammatical patterns that would “prove” the deity of Christ. His “discovery” was
self-serving and self-validating.
Instead 2 PETER 1:1 has two persons in view, “our God” and the “savior, Jesus Christ.” Peter
consistently distinguishes between God and Jesus in both of his letters as well as in his sermons as recorded in
the Book of Acts. In 2 Peter he applies the label “savior” to Jesus five times, in each case without the
definite article. In each such passage he also maintains a distinction between God and Jesus, the latter
consistently identified as “savior.”
Since this verse is not a clear statement about the deity of Christ, and since Peter elsewhere distinguishes
between God and Jesus, the burden of proof for the deity of Jesus lies with those who make such claims.
ENDNOTES:
[1] James R. White, The Forgotten Trinity (Minneapolis: Bethany Press Int’l., 1998), pp. 76-77; Robert Morey, The Trinity,
Evidence and Issues (Grand Rapids, MI: World Publishing, 1996), p. 345.
[2]
Graeser-Lynn-Schoenheit, One God One Lord (Indianapolis: Christian Education Services, 2000), p. 500.
[3]
Moulton-Howard-Turner, Grammar Vol. III, p. 181; Grammatical Insights into the New Testament (Edinburgh: T&T Clark,
1965), p. 16.
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Online 4WD

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #382 on: Sat May 26, 2018 - 08:32:38 »
You are describing yourself.
No, I am pretty sure that I was describing your theology.  I wasn't even so ad hominem as as you.

Offline soterion

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #383 on: Sat May 26, 2018 - 09:51:17 »
Does Peter call Jesus “God” in 2 PETER 1:1?

The justification for taking this clause to refer to Jesus as both “God” and “savior” is a supposed rule of
Greek grammar, the Granville Sharp Rule.[1] The definition of this Rule is that in Greek when two nouns of
the same case are joined by the conjunction kai (“and”) and only the first noun of the pair has the definite
article (i.e., “the”), then both nouns refer to the same subject or person. In the Greek sentence of 2 PETER
1:1 only one definite article is used before “God” (i.e., “the God”). Both “God” and “Jesus Christ” are in the
genitive noun case, masculine gender and singular number. Hence it is concluded that Peter is referring to
one and the same person, indicating that Jesus is identified as both “God” and “savior.”


Actually, your source did not correctly define the rule.

The following is from Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament by Daniel B. Wallace:

Page 270 - Introduction: In Greek, when two nouns are connected by καὶ and the article precedes only the first noun, there is a close connection between the two. That connection always indicates at least some sort of unity. At a higher level, it may connote equality. At the highest level it may indicate identity. When the construction meets three specific demands, then the two nouns always refer to the same person. When the construction does not meet these requirements, the nouns may or may not refer to the same person(s)/object(s).

Page 271 - Statement of the Rule: Sharp actually penned six rules on the use of the article, but the first of these is what has become known as Sharp's rule because of its import for texts dealing with the deity of Christ. Hence, "it is of much more consequence than the rest..." The rule is as follows:

When the copulative καὶ connects two nouns of the same case, [viz. nouns (either substantive or adjective, or participles) of personal description, respecting office, dignity, affinity, or connexion, and attributes, properties, or qualities, good or ill], if the article ὁ, or any of its cases, precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle: i.e. it denotes a farther description of the first named person....


Do you see the difference between the definition David Maas put up and the one that Granville Sharp himself gave? Sharp applies the rule only to a singular person, not a subject or person, and the nouns are not proper nouns. In fact, read the following:

Pages 271-272 - In other words, in the TSKS construction (article-substantive-καὶ-substantive, the rule defined above), the second noun refers to the same person mentioned in the first noun when:
(1) Neither is impersonal
(2) neither is plural
(3) neither is a proper name

Therefore, according to Sharp, the rule applied absolutely only with personal, singular, and non-proper nouns.


Page 273 - Validity of the Rule Within the New Testament: Not counting the christologically significant passages, there are 80 constructions in the NT which fit the requirements for Sharp's rule. But do they fit all the semantics of the rule-that is, do the substantives always refer to one and the same person? In a word, yes. Even Sharp's opponents could not find any exceptions; all had to admit that the rule was valid in the NT.

Offline soterion

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #384 on: Sat May 26, 2018 - 10:03:04 »
Soterian wrote:

Reply #348 on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 09:53:58 »
When we read in the Bible that God is one, or that there is one God, what are we to understand?

Deuteronomy 6:4.
"Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah:" (ASV)

“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." (ESV)

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" (NAS)

The word "one" is not being used to define the numerical composition or personality of God, but rather to point out that there is no other God for man to look for. There is a difference in those two concepts. Here is how the Stone Edition Tanach translates Deuteronomy 6:4 as follows:

"Hear O Israel, HASHEM is our God, HASHEM is the One and Only."

The emphasis is simply that there is no other God for Israel.




My Response: “One and Only” means there is only one God In number and “no other God” to look for”.  One means the number one in the original Hebrew. 


You simply misunderstood the point of the post. Of course there is only one God. The number one is used to distinguish the one God from all of the other supposed gods that men might look to for fulfillment or salvation, which are no gods at all and should not be sought out for anything. The number one is not being used to define the numerical composition of our God.

The more I read all such passages, the more I wonder if trying to define the one God numerically was ever even a consideration in the Old or New Testaments. The thrust of all these passages is to keep people pointed toward and focused on our God and away from the false gods/idols.