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Author Topic: How can Jesus Christ be God?  (Read 12588 times)

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Online Michael2012

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #490 on: Sun Jun 10, 2018 - 04:05:57 »
Michael 2012 wrote:

But to comment, it is precisely because He assumed a human nature, that he needed to grow in all aspects of the human nature, which includes not only of the physical but also of the spirit.


My Response:

Luke 1:80 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.

Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

Comment: When it is said that Christ grew in the spirit, he grew in the holy spirit. This is not growing in human nature.


People grow. That is their nature. That speaks of John's humanity, as well as that of Jesus'. In their humanity, they grow in body and in spirit. But in Jesus' deity, no growth is ever needed nor does come about. 

Michael 2012 wrote:

With regards Rom. 1:4, it does not say that Christ became fully the son of God by the resurrection from the dead. What it says is that Christ was declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.


My Response:

http://biblehub.com/greek/1411.htm

Strong’s Short Definition: might, power, marvelous works
NASB Translation
ability (4), meaning (1), mightily (1), mighty (1), miracle (2), miracles (17), miraculous powers (3), power (83), powers (6), strength (2), wealth (1).

Berean Literal Bible
1 Cor 15:45  So also it has been written: "The first man Adam became into a living soul;" the last Adam into a life-giving spirit.

John 5:25
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26  For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Comment: So being declared the son of God with power means includes miraculous power and ability as a spirit to raise the dead and give eternal life, something he did not have prior to this.  He became a spirit at this point.  This will be expanded below.





Hebrews 5:5
So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Comment: God raised the Messiah from the dead.  Notice “again” in verse 33. 

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:




Comment: This is when Christ became the born again son of God.


What you say there does not refute what I said regarding Romans 1:4. That Rom. 1:4 does not say that Christ became fully the son of God by the resurrection from the dead. What it says is that Christ was declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

It is the resurrection of Christ from the dead that is the ultimate proof of who He is, His person, that is, He is the Son of God, for no one had ever risen from the dead, not even Abraham, Moses, or David. Thus Romans 1:4 says " and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead."


Michael 2012 wrote:

His resurrection unto eternal life declares who He is, that is, the Son of God. Remember what Jesus said of Himself when He was still on earth?

John 10:18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”


My Response:


Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell (G 86 Hades: grave), neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

2 Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Comment: Christ was dead and couldn’t have raised himself from the dead.  The spirit of God that was in him and spoke thru him, raise him from the dead. 


https://www.ucg.org/the-good-news/who-resurrected-jesus-christ

From the article:

For example, the apostle Peter stated in his first sermon on the Day of Pentecost: “This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses” (Acts 2:32
Acts 2:32This Jesus has God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

American King James Version×). Not long after, Peter repeated this vital testimony. He told the audience that they had “killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses” (Acts 3:15 Acts 3:15And killed the Prince of life, whom God has raised from the dead; whereof we are
witnesses.
American King James Version×).


There is no doubt that it is God who raised Jesus from the dead. For no man, can rise from the dead by his own. But now, we have to consider this scriptures:

John 10:18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

While Jesus was a man, in His humanity, He spoke the truth. He did not sin. He did not lie.  Not only that, but He said of Himself, that He is the truth, and He is the resurrection and the life. In John 10:18, He speaks yet another truth concerning His life, saying "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father." All these Jesus said, is a command He received from His Father, that He will do. Do you not believe that Jesus had done all these in obedience to His Father's will and command? I do.   

Now, we know that no man can ever raise himself back to life. Men like Peter and Paul had raised the dead back to life, but not themselves. No one had such power except Jesus Christ, as He have told us in John 10:18. This reminds me of what He said in this passage:

John 2
13 Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 And He found in the temple those who sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers doing business. 15 When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers’ money and overturned the tables. 16 And He said to those who sold doves, “Take these things away! Do not make My Father’s house a house of merchandise!” 17 Then His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for Your house has eaten Me up.”

18 So the Jews answered and said to Him, “What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?”

19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”

21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.

It's clear then who raised Jesus from the dead, and thus, who Jesus is. He is no other but God who raises the dead. He is truly the resurrection and the life, as He said He is.


Michael 2012 wrote:

With regards 1 Cor. 15:45, I don't think this makes any point in our discussion.


My Response:

Just because you cannot see it because you are blinded by the trinity indoctrination, does not make it so.  1 Cor 15:45 is a very crucial point because Christ was made a spirit after he was resurrected from the dead.  He was not a spirit prior to that.  He did not exist.

Michael 2012 wrote:
   

All I can point you to concerning this verse are the two verses that follows it, that is:

1 Cor.15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.


My Response:

Precisely: Christ was made a natural man first, then a spiritual one.  He was not a spirit man first, then became a natural man, then became a sprit man again.


So you don't believe that Christ existed prior to His coming into the world. That makes the difference I have to mention.

Perhaps this reading is relevant:

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Who do you say John refers to as the Word in verse 1?

Who do you say is the "He" in verse 2 that John speaks about?

Who do you say is the "Him" in verse 3, whom John speaks about saying that through Him all things were created through and that without Him nothing was made that was made?

All three verses clearly implies that the Word, the "He", the "Him" pre-existed creation to the very least.

Michael 2012 wrote:

47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. The passage clearly tells us who He is and where He came from.:

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/articles/textual-corruptions-favoring-the-trinitarian-position
1 Corinthians 15:45
“The first man, Adam” was changed by scribes to read, “the first, Adam” to get rid of the word “man,” since by grammatical implication Christ would then have to be a man also.
1 Corinthians 15:47
“The second man from heaven” was changed in various ways: “the second man, the Lord from heaven” or “the second, the Lord from heaven” or “the second man is spiritual,” etc. The variety of ways this verse has come down to us today shows that it was not just one or two scribes changing the text but rather a number of unscrupulous scribes who thought their theological position was more important than the authority of the Word of God. Any verse stating that Jesus was a man was “a thorn in the side” of the developing Trinitarian position, and attempts were made to expunge these from the text. Thankfully, through modern scholarship, the original reading is agreed upon by scholars.


http://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/15-47.htm
The first man out of the earth made of dust the second man from (or out of) heaven. 

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Comment: “out of heaven” in John 15:47 means that the God from heaven beget Christ with the genes of David in the womb of his mother here on earth. The first man Adam was made from the dust of the earth.


I can see that you posted an excerpt coming from an article authored by the unitarian believer on the matter of textual corruption of the cited verses here. And of course, needless to say,  such article favors the belief that Christ is not God or that God did not incarnate. So this does not really have much weight on our discussion.

But let me just try to go into that. With your posting here, may I know what to you is the correct writing of 1 Cor. 15:47? Consider the following:

(NIV) 1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.

Do you say that that is a correct writing? I thought you would say it is, as the article excerpt you posted implies it is.

But even with that, it does not take away the truth that the second man refers to Jesus. Thus, the said scriptures is saying that Jesus, was not of the dust of the earth as was the first man, which refers to Adam. So Jesus is not of the dust of the earth, which tells us that Jesus did not come from the earth, and leads us to the point of the last portion of the verse that Jesus comes from heaven. That says a lot of the person of Jesus. And this speaks well of scriptures that says that Jesus came down from heaven. Such clearly implies that Jesus existed prior to His coming down to earth, through a virgin birth in Mary, to be found in the flesh, such as Adam and the rest of mankind were. And just a note here - of course His name was not Jesus until He was given that name when He was born of Mary.

And with regards your comment “out of heaven” in John 15:47 means that the God from heaven beget Christ with the genes of David in the womb of his mother here on earth. The first man Adam was made from the dust of the earth, this is what I can say:

First of all, its not John 15:47, but perhaps 1 Cor. 15:47.

Now, what you take "out of heaven" to mean is nowhere taught in scriptures. Obviously, it is only your own opinion and interpretation.

Here's a question for you:

“What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?”

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #490 on: Sun Jun 10, 2018 - 04:05:57 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #491 on: Sun Jun 10, 2018 - 14:17:30 »
Grace to you and peace
        from God our Father,
        AND
        the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans(1:7)

Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father,
        AND
        from the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians (1:3)

Grace be to you and peace from God our Father,
        AND 
        from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Blessed be God,
        EVEN
        the Father
        OF our Lord Jesus Christ,
                the Father of mercies,
                and the God of all comfort, 2 Corinthians (1:2,3)

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man,
        but by Jesus Christ,
        AND
        God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) ...
unto the churches of Galatia: Grace be to you and peace
        from God the Father,
       AND
        from our Lord Jesus Christ, (Galatians 1:1-3)

Grace be to you, and peace,
        from God our Father,
        AND
        From the Lord Jesus Christ. Ephesians 1:2)

Grace be unto you, and peace,
        from God our Father,
        AND
        from the Lord Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:2)

Grace be unto you, and peace,
        from God our Father
        AND
        the Lord Jesus Christ.

We give thanks
        to God and the Father
        OF
        our Lord Jesus Christ Colossians  (1:2,3)

Grace be unto you, and peace,
        from God our Father,
        AND
        the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians (1:1)

Grace unto you, and peace,
        from God our Father
        AND
        the Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Thessalonians 1:2)

Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace,
        from God our Father
        AND
        Jesus Christ our Lord. 1 Timothy (1:2)

To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace,
        from God the Father
        AND
        Christ Jesus our Lord. 2 Timothy (1:2)

To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace,
        from God the Father
        AND
        the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. (Titus 1:4)

Grace to you, and peace,
        from God our Father
        AND
        the Lord Jesus Christ. (Philemon 1:3)

For unto which of the angels said he at any time,
        Thou art my SON, this day have I begotten thee?
And again, I will be
         TO HIM a Father,
         AND
         he shall be TO ME a Son? Hebrews (1:5)

James, a servant
        of God
        AND
        of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. Manes(1:1)

Blessed be
        the God and Father
        OF
        our Lord Jesus Christ 1 Peter (1:3)

Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the
        knowledge of God,
        AND
        of Jesus our Lord, 2 Peter  (1:2)

and truly our fellowship is
        with the Father,
        AND
        with his Son Jesus Christ. 1 John (1:3)

Grace be with you, mercy, and peace,
        from God the Father,
        AND
        from the Lord Jesus Christ,
                the Son
                OF
                the Father, in truth and love. 2 John (1:3)

Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are
        sanctified by God the Father,
        AND
        preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: Jude (1:1)

The Man Jesus of Nazareth was SANCTIFIED by the Father when HE was baptize

John 10:36 Say ye of him,
        whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world,
        Thou BLASPHEMEST;
        because I said, I am the SON OF GOD?

IF YOU CAN'T GRASP IT JUST COOL IT: GOD HIDES FROM THE WISE OR SOPHISTS AND JESUS DOESN'T PRAY FOR THOSE OF THE WORLD.




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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #491 on: Sun Jun 10, 2018 - 14:17:30 »

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #492 on: Sun Jun 10, 2018 - 15:55:51 »
GOD HIDES FROM THE WISE OR SOPHISTS....
Careful there Sublett,  You certainly present yourself here as one of those, i.e., one of the wise.  Sophist??  Not sure about that but it could be.

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #492 on: Sun Jun 10, 2018 - 15:55:51 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #493 on: Sun Jun 10, 2018 - 19:40:57 »
AT A CHURCH NEAR YOU:
Plato on Music as Worship and the nature of performers

http://www.piney.com/DocPlatoLaws2.html

Plat. Laws 908d
For whereas the one class will be quite frank
        in its language about the gods and about sacrifices and oaths,
        and by ridiculing other people will probably convert others to its views,
        unless it meets with punishment,
the other class, while holding the SAME opinions as the former,
        yet being specially “gifted by nature'' and being full of CRAFT and GUILE,
        is the class out of which are manufactured many diviners and experts in all manner of jugglery;
        and from it, too, there spring sometimes tyrants and demagogues and generals,
        and those who plot by means of peculiar mystic rites of their own,
               and the devices of those who are called “sophists.” Of these there may be many kinds;
Of these there may be many kinds; [908e] but those which call for legislation are two, of which the “ironic”3 kind commits sins that deserve not one death only or two, while the other kind requires both admonition and imprisonment. Likewise also the belief that the gods are neglectful breeds two other kinds of impiety; and the belief in their being open to bribes, other two. These kinds being thus distinguished, those criminals who suffer from folly,4 being devoid of evil disposition and character, shall be placed by the judge according to law in the reformatory for a period of not less than five years, during which time no other of the citizens

The Spirit OF Christ in Isaiah said of those who do NOT SPEAK THE WORD that THERE IS NO LIGHT IN THEM.
Isaiah 55 outlaws selling THE FREE WATER OF THE WORD
Isaiah 58 outlaws seeking your own pleasure or SPEAKING YOUR OWN WORDS.
Paul demanded the same in Romans 15.

Plato Laws 12:[941a-b] If anyone, while acting as ambassador [presbeutēs] or herald [kērux],
            conveys false messages from his State to another State,
            or fails to deliver the ACTUAL MESSAGE he was sent to deliver,
            or is proved to have brought back, as ambassador or herald,
            either from a friendly or hostile nation, their reply in a false form,
                —against all such there shall be laid an indictment for breaking the law
                by sinning against the sacred messages and injunctions of Hermes1 and Zeus,
                and an assessment shall be made of the penalty they shall suffer or pay, if convicted.
Theft of property is uncivilized, open robbery is shameless:
        neither of these has any of the sons of Zeus practiced,
        through delight in fraud or force.
Let no man, therefore, be deluded concerning this or persuaded either by
        poiētōn or by any perverse myth-mongers [muthologōn]
        into the belief that, when he thieves or forcibly robs, TITHES AND OFFERINGS
        he is doing nothing shameful, but just what the gods themselves do.1
                1  That is both unlikely and untrue; and whoever acts thus unlawfully is
                neither a god at all nor a child of gods;

Hermes is the pagan Word or Logos and is A GOD who is mediator.  As ANTITHESIS John used LOGOS to speak of the WORDS of God which He is capable of transfering by his breath (spirit) without needing a HELPER GOD.

1 Cp.Plat. Rep 378 ff., Plat. Rep. 388 ff. Hermes is specially in mind, as notorious for his thefts and frauds; cp. Homer Iliad 5. 390; 24. 395, etc.

-Anaischuntos , on,  A. shameless, impudent, II. of things, shameful, abominable, bora E.Cyc.416 ; thêkai Th.2.52 .

A SOPHIST makes up their own songs, instruments and sermons:

-Poets Poi-êtês  maker, “mēkhanēmatōn
II. composer of a poem, author, “p. kōmōdias” Pl.Lg.935e; “p. kainōn dramatōn, tragōdiōn ktl.
b. composer of music, Pl.Lg.812d.
2. author of a speech,
 
Sophis-tēs , ou, ho, A.master of one's craft, adept, expert, of diviners,
        meletan sophistais prosbalon” [STRIKE WITH THE INTENTION OF HURT]
        with“hoi s. tōn hierōn melōn  [melody in a holy place]; of Pythagoras, Hdt.4.95;
2. sophist (in bad sense), quibbler, cheat, 3. later of the rhētores, Professors of Rhetoric,
Apollōnidē sophistē” Apollon-Abaddon Leader of the Muses or Locusts

soph-isma II. clever device, ingenious contrivance, Pi.O.13.17 (pl.); “s. mēkhanasthai

Contrary to UNITY IN DIVERSITY Paul insists that the Elders as Pastor-Teacher put them out because theirs is a sign of those LYING IN WAIT TO DECEIVE.

THEY TELL YOU THAT A SPIRIT INFORMED THEM ABOUT EPHESIANS 4 BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT THEY CAN FOOL MOST OF THE PEOPLE MOST OF THE TIME AND THAT, SAYS LINCOLN,  IS GOOD ENOUGH.

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #493 on: Sun Jun 10, 2018 - 19:40:57 »

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #494 on: Mon Jun 11, 2018 - 06:16:44 »
I correct what I said in reply #492 above, I have no doubt that you are a sophist also.

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #494 on: Mon Jun 11, 2018 - 06:16:44 »



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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #495 on: Mon Jun 11, 2018 - 06:40:24 »
Reply #490 page 15


Michael wrote:

People grow. That is their nature. That speaks of John's humanity, as well as that of Jesus'. In their humanity, they grow in body and in spirit. But in Jesus' deity, no growth is ever needed nor does come about.

My Response:

Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

Comment: wisdom and grace are from the holy spirit.  Christ grew in the holy spirit.  What significance would it have if he grew in his human spirit? 

Luke 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.  23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age.

Luke 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.

Comment:
Christ was filled with the holy spirit at this point, more than he had before.  He had fasted for forty days and was tempted by the devil.  So now being filled with the spirit, he could resist the devil in his hunger and weakness. 

Vs 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Comment: Christ received more of the holy spirit as he was anointed by God to preach the gospel, heal the sick, and preach deliverance. 

John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet____ because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) 

Comment: Christ grew in spirit to the point that his human spirit would bond completely with the holy spirit. Yes, he grew in his human spirit also.   

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Comment: Christ grew in patience and obedience which is one of the fruits of the spirit.  So again, he grew in the spirit.

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #495 on: Mon Jun 11, 2018 - 06:40:24 »

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #496 on: Mon Jun 11, 2018 - 07:06:34 »
Reply #490 page 15

Michael wrote:


What you say there does not refute what I said regarding Romans 1:4. That Rom. 1:4 does not say that Christ became fully the son of God by the resurrection from the dead. What it says is that Christ was declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

It is the resurrection of Christ from the dead that is the ultimate proof of who He is, His person, that is, He is the Son of God, for no one had ever risen from the dead, not even Abraham, Moses, or David. Thus Romans 1:4 says " and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.


My Response:

you are dead wrong. Excuse the pun.  For one, Lazarus was resurrected from the dead.  The below link shows all the know people that was resurrected from the dead before Christ was. 

http://www.biblestudy.org/question/who-has-been-resurrected-from-the-dead.html


What exactly happened around the resurrection of Christ from the dead? 

Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

John 20:22
  And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Comment:
Christ was not a spirit yet, but he could give the holy spirit.  But he could not baptize them with the holy spirit.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39  (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet_____ because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Comment:
It was only after Christ human spirit was bonded as one with the holy spirit could one be baptized with the holy spirit.  Thus, one could now die (baptized) with Christ and resurrect with him into eternal life. 

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


Comment: Not only that, those that had died before would have their souls (and minds) resurrected into heaven (John 5:25, John 11:25).  Those alive would never die if they endured until the end (John 11:26).  Their bodies would be resurrected at the first resurrection.  Christ became a life giving spirit (1 Cor 15:45) in the image of his father.  This is when Christ became the son of God with power—yes, after his resurrection.  You just did not consider the other things after his resurrection.






Offline Truthcomber

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #497 on: Mon Jun 11, 2018 - 07:24:21 »
Reply #490 page 15


Michael wrote:


There is no doubt that it is God who raised Jesus from the dead. For no man, can rise from the dead by his own. But now, we have to consider this scriptures:

John 10:18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

While Jesus was a man, in His humanity, He spoke the truth. He did not sin. He did not lie.  Not only that, but He said of Himself, that He is the truth, and He is the resurrection and the life. In John 10:18, He speaks yet another truth concerning His life, saying "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father." All these Jesus said, is a command He received from His Father, that He will do. Do you not believe that Jesus had done all these in obedience to His Father's will and command? I do.   

Now, we know that no man can ever raise himself back to life. Men like Peter and Paul had raised the dead back to life, but not themselves. No one had such power except Jesus Christ, as He have told us in John 10:18. This reminds me of what He said in this passage:

_______________

18 So the Jews answered and said to Him, “What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?”

19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”

21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.

It's clear then who raised Jesus from the dead, and thus, who Jesus is. He is no other but God who raises the dead. He is truly the resurrection and the life, as He said He is.





My Response:


John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Comment: Let us visit Lazarus again.


John 11:40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?  41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. 42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. 43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. 44 And he that was dead came forth.

Comment: It was because of the Messiah's heavenly father that Lazarus rose from the dead.  His father showed him how to raise the dead (John 5:19 above).  And with faith, he raised Lazarus.



 
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.




Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him (heavenly father) that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

2 Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ

John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

Comment:
It was actually the father’s words that the Messiah was speaking.  It was his Father that raised him from the dead. Christ raised himself from the dead by having faith that his father would raise him up. 


Offline Truthcomber

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #498 on: Mon Jun 11, 2018 - 07:39:33 »
Reply #490 page 15


Michael wrote:



So you don't believe that Christ existed prior to His coming into the world. That makes the difference I have to mention.

Perhaps this reading is relevant:

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Who do you say John refers to as the Word in verse 1?

Who do you say is the "He" in verse 2 that John speaks about?

Who do you say is the "Him" in verse 3, whom John speaks about saying that through Him all things were created through and that without Him nothing was made that was made?

All three verses clearly implies that the Word, the "He", the "Him" pre-existed creation to the very least. 





My Response:

God is mind and spirit—both aspects that are invisible.    His mind is in heaven and his spirit is omnipresent.  The Word in John 1:1-2 is the spirit of God. 

He creates all through his word or spirit. Both are interchangeable:

John 1:3 All things were made by (it); and without (it) was not any thing made that was made.

Genesis 1:2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

Psalm 33:6 By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host.

Job 33:4 "The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Psalm 104:30 You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the ground.


John 1:1 does not matter. There are no gender pronouns here.

John 1:2 (KJV) The same was in the beginning with God.

There is no gender in many versions of John 1:2.

http://biblehub.com/john/1-2.htm

Look up the primary definition of  Houtos ( 3778) in the link below:  It is “it” and not “he”. 

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1-2.htm

It primarily means “this”, and not “he”. 

John 1:3 All things were made by it (I would choose “it” based on verse 2) and without it nothing was made.

John 4:24
  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Romans 1:22  Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man…

Comment: You don’t have to actually create a visible image of God of material things, but can do it in your mind.  God does not have male genitals 
 
Acts 13:37  he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.:

Comment: This means that Christ was created a corruptible man.  He was not God.  If God had not risen him from the dead, he would have corrupted.

The pronouns pertaining to God, who is a spirit and has no gender, should not be feminine or masculine.  How drab it would be if "it" would be used to describe God instead of "he, him".  So words are personalized.  Wisdom has the pronoun "her" to refer to it.  And the bible is also done in poetic style. 
« Last Edit: Sun Jun 17, 2018 - 17:36:30 by Truthcomber »

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #498 on: Mon Jun 11, 2018 - 07:39:33 »

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #499 on: Mon Jun 11, 2018 - 08:05:17 »
Reply #490 page 15   


Michael Wrote:


I can see that you posted an excerpt coming from an article authored by the unitarian believer on the matter of textual corruption of the cited verses here. And of course, needless to say,  such article favors the belief that Christ is not God or that God did not incarnate. So this does not really have much weight on our discussion.

My Response:

Even if it is true?  I am sure that you had not believed  in the trinity all by yourself. 


Michael wrote:


But let me just try to go into that. With your posting here, may I know what to you is the correct writing of 1 Cor. 15:47? Consider the following:

(NIV) 1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.

Do you say that that is a correct writing? I thought you would say it is, as the article excerpt you posted implies it is.

That says a lot of the person of Jesus. And this speaks well of scriptures that says that Jesus came down from heaven. Such clearly implies that Jesus existed prior to His coming down to earth, through a virgin birth in Mary, to be found in the flesh, such as Adam and the rest of mankind were. And just a note here - of course His name was not Jesus until He was given that name when He was born of Mary.

And with regards your comment “out of heaven” in John 15:47 means that the God from heaven beget Christ with the genes of David in the womb of his mother here on earth. The first man Adam was made from the dust of the earth, this is what I can say:

First of all, its not John 15:47, but perhaps 1 Cor. 15:47.

 

Now, what you take "out of heaven" to mean is nowhere taught in scriptures. Obviously, it is only your own opinion and interpretation.





My Response:
 
Young’s Literal translation:
http://www.htmlbible.com/youngs/B46C015.htm
1 Cor 15:47 The first man [is] out of the earth, earthy; the second man [is] the Lord out of heaven;


Michael wrote:

But even with that, it does not take away the truth that the second man refers to Jesus. Thus, the said scriptures is saying that Jesus, was not of the dust of the earth as was the first man, which refers to Adam. So Jesus is not of the dust of the earth, which tells us that Jesus did not come from the earth, and leads us to the point of the last portion of the verse that Jesus comes from heaven



My Response:

Let’s read the context:

I cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Comment Was Christ’s flesh corruptible? Was he of the seed of David? 

Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 But he (Christ), whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

Comment: If God had not raised the Messiah from the dead, he would have saw corruption like his father David had. For he was made of the seed of David.
 
Acts 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Comment: So, at this point, before his resurrection, Christ was flesh that could have seen corruption if God had not raised him from the dead. 

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Comment: So, at this point the Messiah was not a spirit.

1 Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body…47 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a life giving spirit.

Comment: When did Christ become the second Adam?  It was when he was resurrection from the dead and ascended into heaven and made a life giving spirit—not before.  He was a descendant of the first Adam before that of the seed of David.  The new generation of man, the spirit man, spores from the second Adam. 

Berean Literal Bible
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation,

1 Cor 15:47 The first man [is] out of the earth, earthy; the second man [is] the Lord out of heaven;

Comment
: 1 Corinthians was written after the Messiah had risen from the dead and became a spirit. So, Christ is the Lord out of heaven after he was glorified in Acts. 


Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Acts 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest:...

Comment:
Here are two examples of the Lord out of heaven, that is his spirit out of heaven. 

Michael wrote:

Here's a question for you:

“What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He? 
Matt 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?



My response:


Christ is David’s son according to the flesh (Rom 1:3) or first Adam.  David called Christ his master or Lord according to becoming a descendant of  the second Adam.   David’s spiritual father is God, the same as Christ’s spiritual father in vs. 44. 

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #500 on: Thu Jun 14, 2018 - 12:18:15 »
Reply #490 page 15


Michael wrote:

People grow. That is their nature. That speaks of John's humanity, as well as that of Jesus'. In their humanity, they grow in body and in spirit. But in Jesus' deity, no growth is ever needed nor does come about.

My Response:

Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

Comment: wisdom and grace are from the holy spirit.  Christ grew in the holy spirit.  What significance would it have if he grew in his human spirit? 

Luke 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.  23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age.

Luke 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.

Comment:
Christ was filled with the holy spirit at this point, more than he had before.  He had fasted for forty days and was tempted by the devil.  So now being filled with the spirit, he could resist the devil in his hunger and weakness. 

Vs 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Comment: Christ received more of the holy spirit as he was anointed by God to preach the gospel, heal the sick, and preach deliverance. 

John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet____ because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) 

Comment: Christ grew in spirit to the point that his human spirit would bond completely with the holy spirit. Yes, he grew in his human spirit also.   

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Comment: Christ grew in patience and obedience which is one of the fruits of the spirit.  So again, he grew in the spirit.


On your comment on Luke 2:40, you are actually making my point, the point of Jesus' human nature, His humanity. And that He experience such growth, is because He is truly human, for in His deity, no growth is ever needed nor does come about.

On your comment on Luke 3:21 & Luke 4:1, consider the following scriptures relative to this.

John 3:34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.

On your comment on Luke 4:18, consider the same scriptures above.

On your comment on John 7:39 & Hebrews 5:8, as I pointed out, it is in His humanity that He grows.

Online Michael2012

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #501 on: Thu Jun 14, 2018 - 14:04:39 »
Reply #490 page 15


Michael wrote:

There is no doubt that it is God who raised Jesus from the dead. For no man, can rise from the dead by his own. But now, we have to consider this scriptures:

John 10:18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

While Jesus was a man, in His humanity, He spoke the truth. He did not sin. He did not lie.  Not only that, but He said of Himself, that He is the truth, and He is the resurrection and the life. In John 10:18, He speaks yet another truth concerning His life, saying "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father." All these Jesus said, is a command He received from His Father, that He will do. Do you not believe that Jesus had done all these in obedience to His Father's will and command? I do.   

Now, we know that no man can ever raise himself back to life. Men like Peter and Paul had raised the dead back to life, but not themselves. No one had such power except Jesus Christ, as He have told us in John 10:18. This reminds me of what He said in this passage:

_______________

18 So the Jews answered and said to Him, “What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?”

19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”

21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.

It's clear then who raised Jesus from the dead, and thus, who Jesus is. He is no other but God who raises the dead. He is truly the resurrection and the life, as He said He is.





My Response:


John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Comment: Let us visit Lazarus again.


John 11:40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?  41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. 42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. 43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. 44 And he that was dead came forth.

Comment: It was because of the Messiah's heavenly father that Lazarus rose from the dead.  His father showed him how to raise the dead (John 5:19 above).  And with faith, he raised Lazarus.



 
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.




Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him (heavenly father) that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

2 Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ

John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

Comment:
It was actually the father’s words that the Messiah was speaking.  It was his Father that raised him from the dead. Christ raised himself from the dead by having faith that his father would raise him up.


On John 5:19, please tell us what you take each phrase,Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do and for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise to be telling you.

On your comment on John 11:40, yes it was God who raised the dead Lazarus. And as the Father raises the dead so does the Son.

On your last comment with regards Luke 23:46, Romans 8:11, 2 Cor.5:19, John 12:49, John 10:17 & John 2:19, let me first cite the following verses for you to consider:

Rom. 8:9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

1 Peter 1:11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

What can you say of the Spirit of Christ?

Now, regarding your comment,  on the matter of the resurrection of Christ, consider the following scriptures:

Acts 10:40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly,

God raised Jesus Christ from the dead.

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),

The Father raised Jesus from the dead.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

The Spirit, that is, the Holy Spirit, raised Jesus from the dead.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

The Son, Jesus Christ, raised Himself from the dead.

The Son have the power to resurrect Himself. And He did just as His Father had commanded Him.

John 10:18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #502 on: Thu Jun 14, 2018 - 18:28:22 »
Leonard Allen Dean of Bible at LU: The mission of the Son becomes OPERATIVE and EFFECTIVE through the mission of the Spirit.  That is how the Trinity-in-mission operates.

Leonard Allen and the Lipscomb view from 1938 has been that there are THREE GOD PERSON and each of them has their own "center of consciousness" and each has their particular talent and they are ranked 1, 2, 3.  This CONTRADICT the Bible and common sense that God is COMPLETE within Himself He always had his Wisdom, Spirit (breath) and Word WITH HIM.  The LU heresy denies that there is ONE ALMIGHTY but there are three INCOMPETENTS which become EFFECTIVE when the other such as a SPIRIT PERSON who is required to keep Jesus the Christ or Anointed of God from speaking gibberish.

Leonard Allen says that the Mission of Jesus Christ COULD NOT be effective without A Holy Spirit Person as one of the Gods which defined by Webster:

"The SON is NOT Operative producing an appropriate effect : NOT efficacious  having the power to produce a desired effect


We have noted that the ONLY Personified Spirit is named Apollyon: that is why God used words which literally means WND and is used to define BREATH or it speaks of FLATULENCE not a good idea to identify a "god person."  Job spoke of Hot Air from ther belly.

JOHN DENIES LEONARD ALLEN well enough to warn against "strong delusions."

John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son,
        and SHEWED him all things that himself doeth:
        and he will shew him greater works than these,
        that ye may marvel.

The Father BREATHS (the meaning of Spirit) and the Son HEARS and speaks WORD.  There is never a "holy spirit person" REQUIRED to ENABLE both the Father and the Son.

John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John:
        for the WORKS which the Father hath given ME to finish,
        the same works that I do, bear witness of me,
        that the Father hath sent m
e.

People accuse Jesus of IGNORANCE for not saying that the Father THROUGH the Spirit Person SHOWS me what to do.

The woman at the well didn't need to be a "Doctor of the Law" and she certainly would never try to destroy His nature and the "Father working with Him."

Neither Lord not Christ speak of GOD but the one whom God ANOINTS and SANCTIFIES.

John 4:25 The woman saith unto him,
        I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ:
        when he is come, he will tell us all things.
John 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that SPEAK unto thee am HE.

Jesus did not say: I will tell you all things but you need ANOTHER GOD person to UNSCRAMBLE by gibberish.

John 4:27 And upon this came his disciples, and marvelled that he talked with the woman:
        yet no man said, What seekest thou? or, Why talkest thou with her?
John 4:28 The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men,
John 4:29 Come, see a man,
        which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?
John 4:30 Then they went out of the city, and came unto him.

Of the same people speaking of UNITY IN DIVERSITY cannot read the Word or they would grasp that the cunning craftsmen or sophists (speakers, singers, instrument players" are LYING IN WAIT TO DECEIVE.

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #503 on: Fri Jun 15, 2018 - 04:33:36 »
Reply #490 page 15


Michael wrote:


So you don't believe that Christ existed prior to His coming into the world. That makes the difference I have to mention.

Perhaps this reading is relevant:

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Who do you say John refers to as the Word in verse 1?

Who do you say is the "He" in verse 2 that John speaks about?

Who do you say is the "Him" in verse 3, whom John speaks about saying that through Him all things were created through and that without Him nothing was made that was made?

All three verses clearly implies that the Word, the "He", the "Him" pre-existed creation to the very least. 





My Response:

God is mind and spirit—both aspects that are invisible.    His mind is in heaven and his spirit is omnipresent.  The Word in John 1:1-2 is the spirit of God. 

He creates all through his word or spirit. Both are interchangeable:

John 1:3 All things were made by (it); and without (it) was not any thing made that was made.

Genesis 1:2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

Psalm 33:6 By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host.

Job 33:4 "The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Psalm 104:30 You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the ground.


John 1:1 does not matter. There are no gender pronouns here.

John 1:2 (KJV) The same was in the beginning with God.

There is no gender in many versions of John 1:2.

http://biblehub.com/john/1-2.htm

Look up the primary definition of  Houtos ( 3778) in the link below:  It is “it” and not “he”. 

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1-2.htm

It primarily means “this”, and not “he”. 

John 1:3 All things were made by it (I would choose “it” based on verse 2) and without it nothing was made.

John 4:24
  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Romans 1:22  Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man…

Comment: You don’t have to actually create a visible image of God of material things, but can do it in your mind.  God does not have male genitals 
 
Acts 13:37  he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.:

Comment: This means that Christ was created a corruptible man.  He was not God.  If God had not risen him from the dead, he would have corrupted.

The pronouns pertaining to God, who is a spirit and has no gender, should not be feminine or masculine.  How drab it would be if "it" would be used to describe God instead of "he, him".  So words are personalized.  Wisdom has the pronoun "her" to refer to it.  And the bible is also done in poetic style.



You said "God is mind and spirit". This is evidently an erroneous understanding of the nature of God and a false knowledge of God as revealed in the Bible. While scriptures say that God is spirit, scriptures does not say that God is mind.

You said "John 1:1 does not matter. There are no gender pronouns here. " Of course it matters as it introduces the "Word" who is spoken of in the next verses.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John here tells us of this truth about the "Word": 1. was in the beginning, 2. was with God, 3. was God.

You said "There is no gender in many versions of John 1:2." Here are the Greek text transliterations for you to consider.

Nestle Greek New Testament 1904 : Houtos en en arche pros ton Theon
Westcott and Hort 1881 : Houtos en en arche pros ton theon
ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 1:2 Byzantine/Majority Text (2000): outos En en archE pros ton theon
ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 1:2 Stephens Textus Receptus (1550) : outos En en archE pros ton theon
ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 1:2 Scrivener's Textus Receptus (1894) : outos En en archE pros ton theon
ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 1:2 Westcott/Hort : outos En en archE pros ton theon


3778 [e]   Houtos   Οὗτος   He   DPro-NMS

Houtos/outos

Part of Speech: Demonstrative Pronoun

Case: Nominative
Gender: Masculine
Number: Singular

You said "The Word in John 1:1-2 is the spirit of God." Read what John have to say which identifies the "Word" that he introduced in John 1:1-3.

John 1:10-18
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’” 16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

John 1:29-30
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.’

Anyone who reads the passages will clearly see that the "Word" that John was speaking of and have introduced in John 1:1-3, is the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, who was before John and even before the world which was made through Him. And that will be more clear and evident in the reading of the rest of scriptures in John. 

You said "John 1:3 All things were made by it (I would choose “it” based on verse 2) and without it nothing was made."

I'd choose "He" based on verse 2.

You commented "You don’t have to actually create a visible image of God of material things, but can do it in your mind.  God does not have male genitals." Now, God is spirit. But then, all throughout scriptures, God had manifested and made Himself known to mankind, taking the masculine gender. So that is how the believer should take the Supreme Being. We use the pronouns "He", "Him" when addressing God.

Finally, let me quote the last portion of your post here.

Quote
Acts 13:37  he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.:

Comment: This means that Christ was created a corruptible man.  He was not God.  If God had not risen him from the dead, he would have corrupted.

The pronouns pertaining to God, who is a spirit and has no gender, should not be feminine or masculine.  How drab it would be if "it" would be used to describe God instead of "he, him".  So words are personalized.  Wisdom has the pronoun "her" to refer to it.  And the bible is also done in poetic style. 


That does not at all and in any bit way means, as you have it mean, that Christ was created, more so, a corruptible man, and that He was not God.

Now you said "If God had not risen him from the dead, he would have corrupted."  I could see that logic not only kicks in in your understanding, but also, logic apparently dictates your heart and mind. Sorry to have to say that. For Christ has in fact and truth risen from the dead and now is alive forevermore.

On the matter that if Christ was not risen from the dead, Paul had somehow touched about this in 1 Cor.15. The matter that which you say that if God had not risen Jesus from the dead, that He would have corrupted, while would be the logical thought, that was not even a possibility concerning Christ. For one, Christ came forth from heaven and is the resurrection and the life. For Christ to see corruption is to say that He is not the life, for only then can death reign over His being and corruption to take place.

On the matter of pronouns used to address God in scriptures, which is the masculine gender, is not a matter of choice for man, nor of anyone. It was God who chose to manifest to mankind, in the masculine. So, any reasoning other than that fact and truth concerning the masculine pronouns used of God, should be dismissed to be nothing more than personal opinions and reasons pregnant of self-serving interest.

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #504 on: Fri Jun 15, 2018 - 08:32:59 »
Reply #490 page 15   


Michael Wrote:

I can see that you posted an excerpt coming from an article authored by the unitarian believer on the matter of textual corruption of the cited verses here. And of course, needless to say,  such article favors the belief that Christ is not God or that God did not incarnate. So this does not really have much weight on our discussion.

My Response:

Even if it is true?  I am sure that you had not believed  in the trinity all by yourself.

Is it? By the tone of your writing, even yourself is not certain whether what the article is saying is true or not.

The best way to know the truth is to know Jesus, for He is the truth. I am pretty sure you will agree and that you believe that Jesus is the truth. And that is no small matter, for it touches and is the heart of who Jesus Christ is. What do you take that Jesus is the truth, to mean?   

Reply #490 page 15   

Michael wrote:


But let me just try to go into that. With your posting here, may I know what to you is the correct writing of 1 Cor. 15:47? Consider the following:

(NIV) 1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.

Do you say that that is a correct writing? I thought you would say it is, as the article excerpt you posted implies it is.

That says a lot of the person of Jesus. And this speaks well of scriptures that says that Jesus came down from heaven. Such clearly implies that Jesus existed prior to His coming down to earth, through a virgin birth in Mary, to be found in the flesh, such as Adam and the rest of mankind were. And just a note here - of course His name was not Jesus until He was given that name when He was born of Mary.

And with regards your comment “out of heaven” in John 15:47 means that the God from heaven beget Christ with the genes of David in the womb of his mother here on earth. The first man Adam was made from the dust of the earth, this is what I can say:

First of all, its not John 15:47, but perhaps 1 Cor. 15:47.

 

Now, what you take "out of heaven" to mean is nowhere taught in scriptures. Obviously, it is only your own opinion and interpretation.





My Response:
 
Young’s Literal translation:
http://www.htmlbible.com/youngs/B46C015.htm
1 Cor 15:47 The first man [is] out of the earth, earthy; the second man [is] the Lord out of heaven;


Michael wrote:

But even with that, it does not take away the truth that the second man refers to Jesus. Thus, the said scriptures is saying that Jesus, was not of the dust of the earth as was the first man, which refers to Adam. So Jesus is not of the dust of the earth, which tells us that Jesus did not come from the earth, and leads us to the point of the last portion of the verse that Jesus comes from heaven



My Response:

Let’s read the context:

I cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Comment Was Christ’s flesh corruptible? Was he of the seed of David? 

Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 But he (Christ), whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

Comment: If God had not raised the Messiah from the dead, he would have saw corruption like his father David had. For he was made of the seed of David.
 
Acts 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Comment: So, at this point, before his resurrection, Christ was flesh that could have seen corruption if God had not raised him from the dead. 

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Comment: So, at this point the Messiah was not a spirit.

1 Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body…47 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a life giving spirit.

Comment: When did Christ become the second Adam?  It was when he was resurrection from the dead and ascended into heaven and made a life giving spirit—not before.  He was a descendant of the first Adam before that of the seed of David.  The new generation of man, the spirit man, spores from the second Adam. 

Berean Literal Bible
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation,

1 Cor 15:47 The first man [is] out of the earth, earthy; the second man [is] the Lord out of heaven;

Comment
: 1 Corinthians was written after the Messiah had risen from the dead and became a spirit. So, Christ is the Lord out of heaven after he was glorified in Acts. 


Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Acts 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest:...

Comment:
Here are two examples of the Lord out of heaven, that is his spirit out of heaven.


On your comments regarding 1 Cor.15:42 and Acts 13:36-37, if your point is that Jesus Christ have a corruptible body, I have no objection, for Christ truly came in the flesh, that is, of the same human body as we have. And so, as our body is of corruptible flesh, so was Jesus' when He came into the world.

You commented regarding Acts 1:3 & Luke 24:39, that "at this point the Messiah was not a spirit" and that "at this point, before his resurrection, Christ was flesh that could have seen corruption if God had not raised him from the dead". 

First of all, it is perhaps not Acts 1:3 but Romans 1:3 that you refer to. Now, there Paul made it clear, as having need to mention it, how Christ came, that is, according to the flesh, of the seed of David. Paul here failed not to qualify Jesus' earthly coming as to be in the same flesh as have David and so, as all man have. As such, if we have a corruptible body, so did Christ.

Now, regarding Luke 24:39, this statement of Jesus must be taken in context. The context is that Jesus, who had just died and been buried a few days back, stands in the midst of the disciples. All were naturally terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a ghost, that is, a spirit. It is in this context that Jesus told them "“Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” By this, Jesus is simply telling them that He is no ghost or spirit which apparently men at that time are scared and frightened of, but that He is the same Jesus whom they knew, their Lord and Teacher, who was crucified a few days back and had died. The only difference is that, He is no longer dead, but is alive as having resurrected to life.

On your comment regarding 1 Cor. 15, you asked "When did Christ become the second Adam?". Christ became the second Adam when He came into the world some 2000+ years ago. He was not before that. He is referred to as "Adam" in that, He became a man, according to the seed of David according to the flesh. But unlike the first Adam whom God formed of the dust of the ground, it was not like so in the case of the second Adam. The matter of Jesus becoming the second Adam involves the Incarnation of the Word. The Holy Spirit came upon the virgin Mary, and the power of God overshadowed her, so that, she conceived. As scriptures says, which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. So it is said (in the rendering you prefer), "the first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man is of heaven." By saying that greatly implies a great difference between the two. The second Adam was not of the dust of the earth, but that He was of the Holy Spirit, that is, He came forth from God. And what could come forth from God who is Deity, but Deity? Definitely not flesh nor something of the created things. That is why, it took the wonderful miracle of the Incarnation of the Word, to bring this about - the Word was made flesh, Jesus, the second Adam. And unlike the first Adam who was said to have become a living soul, the second Adam became a life-giving spirit. This is evident in the second Adam, even before He resurrected. Jesus in the following scriptures said:

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

So, it is not correct to say that Christ only became a life-giving spirit after He resurrected and ascended to heaven. For He was one, before and after.

Let me at this point share to you this passage, and to those who read this topic:

Hebrews 13:7-9
7 Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. 9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them.

Reply #490 page 15   

Michael wrote:

Here's a question for you:

“What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He? 
Matt 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?



My response:


Christ is David’s son according to the flesh (Rom 1:3) or first Adam.  David called Christ his master or Lord according to becoming a descendant of  the second Adam.   David’s spiritual father is God, the same as Christ’s spiritual father in vs. 44.



So here you are saying that David is a descendant of the second Adam, which of course could not be read in scriptures.

Now, regarding the question of Jesus to the Pharisees in Mt.22:42, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?”, the Pharisees answered "The Son of David.”. Did they answer correctly the question of Jesus? Was that not your answer as well? If their answer was correct, how come Jesus made a remark that apparently objects to it saying “How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord...?". Which leads Jesus further to ask them in verse 45, "If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his Son?”, which no one could answer. Experts and teachers of all Israel as they are, not one could answer Jesus' question.   

Apparently you have an answer to Jesus' question, which is, "David called Christ his master or Lord according to becoming a descendant of  the second Adam."

Considering your answer to Jesus' question, let's look at the question a little closer. The question is, "If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his Son?”. It is obvious that, the matter of David calling the Christ "Lord" objects to the matter of the Christ being his son. For one David is king. Do you know of a king that calls his son "Lord"? Is it not that a son is subordinate to his father, even a king at that? In Jesus' question, we see the matter of a father king calling his son Lord as absolutely objectionable and ridiculous at least, if not altogether blasphemous and unrighteous. As such, Jesus' question becomes rethorical. It impress that the Pharisees are mistaken in their knowledge about the Christ. But that is not to say that the Christ is not the son of David, for He is, according to the flesh. So, there obviously is an answer to this question that explains why David calls the Christ "Lord", even while He is said to be only his son.

Now, regarding your answer, it basically says one thing, that is, David descended from the Christ (however that came to be and what you take that to really mean). To comment on that, David then becomes the son of Christ, according to the second Adam. That obviously does not answer the question. It even presents a reversed scenario compared to what Jesus had presented and based His question, that is, on the matter that the Christ is the son of David.

Why is it that not even one of the Pharisees could answer a question coming out from the scriptures which they are known to be experts and teachers of? That is because they could not see that the Christ is the Son of God, the Lord. For if they knew and accepted that, then the matter that David calls Him 'Lord' is not that difficult for them to understand.   
 

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #505 on: Fri Jun 15, 2018 - 08:51:27 »
SPIRIT LITERALLY MEANS WIND AND CAN NEVER BE A PERSON.

Leonard Allen Blasphemy view according to Jesus: God reaches through the Son in the Spirit to reconcile and transform, and leads people in the Spirit through the Son back to the Father.  This is the movement, the proportionality, of the Trinity.  In this movement, the mission of the Son and of the Spirit are equal, each according to its distinct function.

This Contradicts all of Scripture because Allen thinks that God's Spirit or Breath is A GOD. The Father BREATHES (spirit) directly to Jesus Who then articulates WORDS.  SPIRIT OR BREATH PRODUCES WORDS.

Rom. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us,
        in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom. 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood,
        we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies,
        we were RECONCILED to God by the death of his Son,
        much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
NO SPIRIT PERSON

Paul begins the epistles without A Holy Spirit Person:

2Cor. 1:2 Grace be to you and peace
        from God our Father,
        AND
        from the Lord Jesus Christ.
NO SPIRIT PERSON:

2Cor. 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh:
        yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh,
        yet now henceforth know we him no more.
2Cor. 5:17 Therefore if any man be IN CHRIST he is a new creature:
        old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Cor. 5:18 And all things are of God,
        who hath reconciled us to himself BY JESUS CHRIST
        and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
NO SPIRIT PERSON:

2Cor. 5:19 To wit, that God was IN Christ,
        RECONCILING the world unto himself,
        not imputing their trespasses unto them;
        and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
NO SPIRIT PERSON:

2Cor. 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ,
        as though God did beseech you by us:
        we pray you in Christ’s stead,
        be ye reconciled to God.

Eph. 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity,
        even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;
        for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph. 2:16 And that HE might RECONCILE both unto God in one body by the cross,
        having slain the enmity thereby:
NO SPIRIT PERSON:

Col. 1:19 For it pleased the Father
         THAT
         in him should all fulness dwell;
Col. 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross,
        by him to RECONCILE all things unto himself; by him, I say,
        whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col. 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies
        in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath HE reconciled
Col. 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death,
        to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight

How can you have all of those Phds, Author of may books, Bible at GURU and leader of the herd say that Jesus the Christ NEEDS a Spirit Person to do the RECONCILING when all of Scripture affirms Jesus as being THE ONLY RECONCILER?  Paul says that is the result of STRONG DELUSIONS to be accompanied by LYING WONDERS which means religious operations with performers CLAIMING the role of Jesus.

Online Michael2012

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #506 on: Fri Jun 15, 2018 - 09:27:47 »
SPIRIT LITERALLY MEANS WIND AND CAN NEVER BE A PERSON.

Leonard Allen Blasphemy view according to Jesus: God reaches through the Son in the Spirit to reconcile and transform, and leads people in the Spirit through the Son back to the Father.  This is the movement, the proportionality, of the Trinity.  In this movement, the mission of the Son and of the Spirit are equal, each according to its distinct function.

This Contradicts all of Scripture because Allen thinks that God's Spirit or Breath is A GOD. The Father BREATHES (spirit) directly to Jesus Who then articulates WORDS.  SPIRIT OR BREATH PRODUCES WORDS.

Rom. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us,
        in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom. 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood,
        we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies,
        we were RECONCILED to God by the death of his Son,
        much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
NO SPIRIT PERSON

Paul begins the epistles without A Holy Spirit Person:

2Cor. 1:2 Grace be to you and peace
        from God our Father,
        AND
        from the Lord Jesus Christ.
NO SPIRIT PERSON:

2Cor. 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh:
        yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh,
        yet now henceforth know we him no more.
2Cor. 5:17 Therefore if any man be IN CHRIST he is a new creature:
        old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Cor. 5:18 And all things are of God,
        who hath reconciled us to himself BY JESUS CHRIST
        and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
NO SPIRIT PERSON:

2Cor. 5:19 To wit, that God was IN Christ,
        RECONCILING the world unto himself,
        not imputing their trespasses unto them;
        and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
NO SPIRIT PERSON:

2Cor. 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ,
        as though God did beseech you by us:
        we pray you in Christ’s stead,
        be ye reconciled to God.

Eph. 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity,
        even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;
        for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph. 2:16 And that HE might RECONCILE both unto God in one body by the cross,
        having slain the enmity thereby:
NO SPIRIT PERSON:

Col. 1:19 For it pleased the Father
         THAT
         in him should all fulness dwell;
Col. 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross,
        by him to RECONCILE all things unto himself; by him, I say,
        whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col. 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies
        in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath HE reconciled
Col. 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death,
        to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight

How can you have all of those Phds, Author of may books, Bible at GURU and leader of the herd say that Jesus the Christ NEEDS a Spirit Person to do the RECONCILING when all of Scripture affirms Jesus as being THE ONLY RECONCILER?  Paul says that is the result of STRONG DELUSIONS to be accompanied by LYING WONDERS which means religious operations with performers CLAIMING the role of Jesus.


Kenneth,

What is the Holy Spirit to you, if not a person?

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #507 on: Sun Jun 17, 2018 - 05:47:27 »
Michael quoted My Response:

Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

Comment: wisdom and grace are from the holy spirit.  Christ grew in the holy spirit.  What significance would it have if he grew in his human spirit? 


Michael wrote:

On your comment on Luke 2:40, you are actually making my point, the point of Jesus' human nature, His humanity. And that He experience such growth, is because He is truly human, for in His deity, no growth is ever needed nor does come about. 


My Response:

I have no idea what you are talking about me proving your point that Christ grew in his human spirit by the comment I made that the Messiah grew in the holy spirit. Then I quoted Luke 3:21, 4:1, and John 7:39 as examples of his progressive growth in the holy spirit.

Christ was begotten with the spirit of God, as the son of God in the womb of his mother Mary.  This alone proves that he must grow in the holy spirit from a seed (1 John 3:9).  He also was born of the seed of David of his flesh and grew in his humanity and body.  For God gives every seed a body.  The seed of David is his soul or spirit of his body. 

Prov 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Proverbs 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him-- the Spirit of wisdom (Luke 2:40 above) and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of might, the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the LORD

Comment: Christ grew in wisdom and understanding by the holy spirit, not by his human spirit, in Luke 2:40. Did the Messiah have the fear of the LORD through the spirit of God in him or through his human spirit?  This indicates the beginning of spiritual growth and that Christ is subservient to almighty God.


Did Christ as a spirit have still trust in the LORD?

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,  12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. 13 And again, I (Christ) will put my trust in him (God almighty). And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Comment: Why did Christ trust in his father after he rose from the dead and became a spirit and was not flesh and blood anymore?

Hebrews  5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

Psalm 2:6  Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten (born) thee.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Comment: Christ was the first born from the dead.  Born of the spirit means that growth is still ahead.  So even as a resurrected spirit, Christ would grow infinitely to become closer and closer to God Almighty’s attributes but never getting there, for God Almighty is infinite in his character.  Christ has his trust in God for this to happened (Heb 2:13 above). 

Heb 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;


Michael Stated:


On your comment on Luke 3:21 & Luke 4:1, consider the following scriptures relative to this.

John 3:34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.

On your comment on Luke 4:18, consider the same scriptures above.

On your comment on John 7:39 & Hebrews 5:8, as I pointed out, it is in His humanity that He grows.


My Response:

Now look at John 3:34 in which you quoted.    It was God that gave and gives his spirit without measure to Christ and his church.  Christ grew in his human bond with the holy spirit.  We all grow in our human spirit and mind but most men do not grow in their bond with the holy spirit because they do not have the holy spirit.  Both are seeds.  Seeds grow. 

John 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. 27 John answered and said, A man (here Christ) can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven…33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. 34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure ____. In other words, he gives out his holy spirit freely. 

1 Cor 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Comment
: In verse 27, Christ (and all men) who receive their testimony from the holy spirit in heaven. Verse 34 is not addressing Christ only but all who receive the testimony of God.  “To him” is an added word at the end of vs. 34.  What is given without measure is more than adequate enough  to speak what God wants you to speak at that time.  For God gave Christ what to speak at all times in his life.  An example of Christen given what to speak is given below.

Matt 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.


Offline Truthcomber

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #508 on: Sun Jun 17, 2018 - 06:04:09 »
Michael Wrote:

On John 5:19, please tell us what you take each phrase, Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do and for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise to be telling you.



My Response:


2 Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word (holy spirit) of reconciliation.

Joel 2:12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:

Comment: Christ was led by the holy spirit in his spirit mind into the desert to be tempted by Satan.  He had been imbued with the holy spirit in Luke 3:22, 4:1.  He had fasted and his human mind bonded more and more with the spirit of God in his spirit mind.  The spirit of God came from the mind of God in heaven.  Christ came as a servant of God Almighty (Phil 2:7 compared with John 5:19 above).


Michael Wrote:


On your comment on John 11:40, yes it was God who raised the dead Lazarus. And as the Father raises the dead so does the Son.


My Response:


John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour (time) is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

1 Cor 15:45
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 

Comment
: Even here Christ could raise the dead by himself (by adequately being bonded to his father) after he himself was resurrected from the dead, not before (John 11:41).  To be completely bonded as one, he had to grow in his relationship to the holy spirit in him, so the holy spirit had to grow in him. So Christ couldn't have raised himself from the dead.

 
John 15:2 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Comment: As mentioned in my previous post, Christ and all that are resurrected from the dead continue to grow in the spirit of God, which is infinite, and become closer and closer to him for all etenity.



Michael Wrote:

On your last comment with regards Luke 23:46, Romans 8:11, 2 Cor.5:19, John 12:49, John 10:17 & John 2:19, let me first cite the following verses for you to consider:

Rom. 8:9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

1 Peter 1:11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.


My Response:


“The spirit of Christ” is not mentioned in the bible until after Christ was resurrected from the dead. The spirit of Christ is the human spirit of Christ bonded with the holy spirit. 

John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet____ because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost.

Comment:
The human spirit of Christ was bonded as one with the holy spirit after Christ’s ascension into heaven.  So the spirit of Christ is now bonded as one with the  holy spirit (Eph 4:4).


Michael Wrote:


What can you say of the Spirit of Christ?

Now, regarding your comment,  on the matter of the resurrection of Christ, consider the following scriptures:

Acts 10:40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly,

God raised Jesus Christ from the dead.

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),

The Father raised Jesus from the dead.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

The Spirit, that is, the Holy Spirit, raised Jesus from the dead.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

The Son, Jesus Christ, raised Himself from the dead.

The Son have the power to resurrect Himself. And He did just as His Father had commanded Him.

John 10:18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”


My Response:


As mentioned in my prior post, Christ did not have the power to raise the dead until he himself was raised from the dead.

Comment: What you quoted just now does not prove Christ is God.

Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

John 10:18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power (faith in God) to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

Heb 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. 13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Comment: Christ received the power to raise himself from the dead by trusting in his father to raise him up. 

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #509 on: Sun Jun 17, 2018 - 06:30:50 »
Michael wrote:

You said "God is mind and spirit". This is evidently an erroneous understanding of the nature of God and a false knowledge of God as revealed in the Bible. While scriptures say that God is spirit, scriptures does not say that God is mind.

My Response:

Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Eph 4:23
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

1 Tim 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amien

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God
:

Comment Mind and spirit are two invisible aspects of God and man that are different but are inseparable.



John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

John 6:63 (BLB)  It is the Spirit giving life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and they are life.

Luke 8:11 (YLT) And this is the simile: The seed is the word of God

Comment:
the words spoken through Christ are seeds from the Word or spirit of God. The Word of God is from the thoughts or mind of God.




Lev 24:12 And they put him in ward, that the mind of the LORD (Yahweh) might be shewed them.

Numbers 24:13 If Balak would give me his house full of silver and gold, I cannot go beyond the commandment of the LORD, to do either good or bad of mine own mind (but the LORD’s mind); but what the LORD saith, that will I speak?:

Comment: God’s mind is in heaven.  His spirit is omnipresent.  God is mind and spirit.  Where his spirit is, his mind is in it.  Where his mind is, his spirit is in it.  God  is not our heavenly Father and his son Christ. 

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word (spirit), and the Word was with God (mind and spirit), and the Word (spirit) was God.


Michael wrote:

You said "John 1:1 does not matter. There are no gender pronouns here. " Of course it matters as it introduces the "Word" who is spoken of in the next verses.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John here tells us of this truth about the "Word": 1. was in the beginning, 2. was with God, 3. was God.

You said "There is no gender in many versions of John 1:2." Here are the Greek text transliterations for you to consider.

Nestle Greek New Testament 1904 : Houtos en en arche pros ton Theon
Westcott and Hort 1881 : Houtos en en arche pros ton theon
ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 1:2 Byzantine/Majority Text (2000): outos En en archE pros ton theon
ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 1:2 Stephens Textus Receptus (1550) : outos En en archE pros ton theon
ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 1:2 Scrivener's Textus Receptus (1894) : outos En en archE pros ton theon
ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 1:2 Westcott/Hort : outos En en archE pros ton theon


3778 [e]   Houtos   Οὗτος   He   DPro-NMS

Houtos/outos

Part of Speech: Demonstrative Pronoun

Case: Nominative
Gender: Masculine
Number: Singular

You said "The Word in John 1:1-2 is the spirit of God." Read what John have to say which identifies the "Word" that he introduced in John 1:1-3.




My response:

First
http://biblehub.com/greek/3056.htm

Definition: a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy.
: a word (as embodying an idea), a statement, a speech


NASB Translation
another* (8), any (1), because* (7), deeds* (1), just (1), just* (1), once* (1), one (11), one* (6), other (2), others* (2), same (2), since* (3), so (1), some (7), some* (8), someone (1), such (1), there (1), these (6), these things (3), thing (1), things (4), third (1), this (22), this is what (1), those whom (1), until* (1), what (101), what* (2), whatever (5), whatever* (28), when (9), when* (3), where (1), where* (2), which (404), while* (3), who (158), whoever (4), whoever* (51), whom (218), whomever* (6), whose (38), why* (3).

Comment: There is no definition that states that the logos is a person.

Second

I had given you parallels between the “word” and ‘spirit” of God in an above post.

Third

From the author:

“In 1 John 1:1 John used the neuter gender word (ho – “that which”) four times rather than (he – “who”) which is a masculine word. John Dobbs says that the four relative pronouns are a literary device to attract the attention of the readers. The neuter relative pronoun noun is used instead of the masculine…”

Fourth



https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1ch/17/3/p0/t_conc_355003
Debar in the OT has the same meaning as logos in the NT
1.   speech, word, speaking, thing
1.   speech
2.   saying, utterance
3.   word, words
4.   business, occupation, acts, matter, case, something, manner (by extension)



http://thelivingtruthfellowship.org/jtltf/bible-teachings/articles-by-topc/what-about-the-trinity/376-john-1-1

The Greek and Hebrew languages assign genders to nouns, just as do Spanish, French, German and many other languages. Thus, every noun in Greek and Hebrew is assigned a gender. In Greek, there are masculine, feminine and neuter nouns, while in Hebrew there are only masculine and feminine. The origin of the gender is ancient, and does not seem to follow a specific pattern. In Hebrew, for example, altar (mizbeach) is masculine, while the menorah is feminine. An arrow (chets) and an ax (qardom) are masculine, while a sword (chereb) is feminine. A beetle (chargol) is masculine, while a bee (deborah) is feminine. In Greek, for example, logos is masculine, while rhema and euanggelion (gospel, good news) are neuter and biblos (book, scroll; from which we get "Bible") and didache (doctrine or teaching) are feminine. "Spirit" (pneuma) is neuter, while "comforter" (parakletos) is masculine. A chain (halusis) is feminine, a rope (schoinion) is neuter, while a leather strap (imas) and a nail (helos) are masculine. When these words are translated into English, we use "it" because they are things. If someone asks, "Where is the chain," we say "It is in the garage," not "She is in the garage." Thus, the point should be made that just because logos is masculine does not mean that the English pronoun "he" is the proper pronoun to use when associated with it. We assert that "it" is the proper pronoun to use in verses like John 1:2 and 3, etc.

Comment: In Hebrew, there are only masculine and female gender for nouns.   The Septuagint  translated the Hebrew into Greek.



Michael wrote:
John 1:10-18
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’” 16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

John 1:29-30
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.’

Anyone who reads the passages will clearly see that the "Word" that John was speaking of and have introduced in John 1:1-3, is the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, who was before John and even before the world which was made through Him. And that will be more clear and evident in the reading of the rest of scriptures in John.




My Response:


Not so, not so very so. 

http://www.amatteroftruth.com/does-john-1-15-prove-jesus-preexisted

John 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before (G1715: before in time) me: for he (has) before  me (G4413: first in rank)….27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred (G4413:higher rank[/b]) before  me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose…30 This is he on behalf of whom I said after me comes a man who has a higher rank than I, for he existed chief in rank(G4413)


http://biblehub.com/lexicon/john/1-15.htm
http://biblehub.com/lexicon/john/1-30.htm


Comment:
“For he is before me” should have been translated as he is a higher rank than me “ 



Michael stated:


You said "John 1:3 All things were made by it (I would choose “it” based on verse 2) and without it nothing was made."

I'd choose "He" based on verse 2.



My Response:
 
I’d choose “it” based on all the facts.  This choice is based on the facts, not some false trinity doctrine that came into existence in the bible 300 years or so after the original texts were written and copied. 


« Last Edit: Sun Jun 17, 2018 - 17:31:52 by Truthcomber »

Offline RB

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #510 on: Sun Jun 17, 2018 - 06:43:44 »
Did the Messiah have the fear of the LORD through the spirit of God in him or through his human spirit? 
Human spirit. He lived a perfect life of obedience IN HIS FLESH as a MAN. His Divinity could NOT be increase or diminished, IMPOSSIBLE regardless of your heresy that teaches that he did! You said:
Quote from: Truthcomber Today at 05:47:27
Christ was the first born from the dead.  Born of the spirit means that growth is still ahead.  So even as a resurrected spirit, Christ would grow infinitely to become closer and closer to God Almighty’s attributes but never getting there, for God Almighty is infinite in his character.  Christ has his trust in God for this to happened (Heb 2:13 above). 
Your two posts as all of the rest of posts reeks with a stink of corruption that reaches to God's nostrils that he will eliminate from off of the earth when he comes again. You have no clue of the doctrine of the Godhead if YOU THINK that one can grow infinitely to become closer and closer to God Almighty’s attributes that is blasphemy~also, Jesus was God in HUMAN FLESH, a truth of godliness that's is hidden from your understanding. The Word in the beginning which WAS GOD, was manifested in the FLESH in the person of Jesus Christ. He was BOTH FULLY man, and FULLY Divinity!  He possessed EVERY attribute that God possessed the very second he was conceived~the Word which was God JOINED HIMSELF to the tabernacle of the Son of the Highest. You reject Jesus as having a complex nature, both man and God, that keeps you reeking in corruption. It is the worst smell that I have ever smell!

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #511 on: Sun Jun 17, 2018 - 06:51:13 »
Michael Wrote:

On your comments regarding 1 Cor.15:42 and Acts 13:36-37, if your point is that Jesus Christ have a corruptible body, I have no objection, for Christ truly came in the flesh, that is, of the same human body as we have. And so, as our body is of corruptible flesh, so was Jesus' when He came into the world.

You commented regarding Acts 1:3 & Luke 24:39, that "at this point the Messiah was not a spirit" and that "at this point, before his resurrection, Christ was flesh that could have seen corruption if God had not raised him from the dead". 

First of all, it is perhaps not Acts 1:3 but Romans 1:3 that you refer to. Now, there Paul made it clear, as having need to mention it, how Christ came, that is, according to the flesh, of the seed of David. Paul here failed not to qualify Jesus' earthly coming as to be in the same flesh as have David and so, as all man have. As such, if we have a corruptible body, so did Christ.

Now, regarding Luke 24:39, this statement of Jesus must be taken in context. The context is that Jesus, who had just died and been buried a few days back, stands in the midst of the disciples. All were naturally terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a ghost, that is, a spirit. It is in this context that Jesus told them "“Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” By this, Jesus is simply telling them that He is no ghost or spirit which apparently men at that time are scared and frightened of, but that He is the same Jesus whom they knew, their Lord and Teacher, who was crucified a few days back and had died. The only difference is that, He is no longer dead, but is alive as having resurrected to life.




My Response:

OK.  We must remember that Christ did not inherit death and thus he had no sin in him.  He was like the first Adam before he sinned and needed not die. He could transfigured himself.   But he was still made of the seed of David directly by God and thus death and sin was not passed on to him.  But he choose to die like the first Adam who had sinned.

2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 




Michael Wrote:

On your comment regarding 1 Cor. 15, you asked "When did Christ become the second Adam?". Christ became the second Adam when He came into the world some 2000+ years ago. He was not before that. He is referred to as "Adam" in that, He became a man, according to the seed of David according to the flesh. But unlike the first Adam whom God formed of the dust of the ground, it was not like so in the case of the second Adam. The matter of Jesus becoming the second Adam involves the Incarnation of the Word. The Holy Spirit came upon the virgin Mary, and the power of God overshadowed her, so that, she conceived. As scriptures says, which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. So it is said (in the rendering you prefer), "the first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man is of heaven." By saying that greatly implies a great difference between the two. The second Adam was not of the dust of the earth, but that He was of the Holy Spirit, that is, He came forth from God. And what could come forth from God who is Deity, but Deity? Definitely not flesh nor something of the created things. That is why, it took the wonderful miracle of the Incarnation of the Word, to bring this about - the Word was made flesh, Jesus, the second Adam. And unlike the first Adam who was said to have become a living soul, the second Adam became a life-giving spirit. This is evident in the second Adam, even before He resurrected. Jesus in the following scriptures said:

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

So, it is not correct to say that Christ only became a life-giving spirit after He resurrected and ascended to heaven. For He was one, before and after.

Let me at this point share to you this passage, and to those who read this topic:

Hebrews 13:7-9
7 Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. 9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them.



My Response:

First,

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

2189a. echthes for yesterday means yesterday, not the eternal past. 

http://biblehub.com/lexicon/hebrews/13-8.htm



Second, Christ was born from above in the holy spirit, like his brethren called the sons of God, are born from above.


“Born Again” or “Born from Above”?

https://bibledifferences.net/2013/07/10/86-born-again/

Author correctly states that the Greek word “anothen” has a double meaning: 1. born above   2. Born again, whereas there is no English word with a double meaning.   

John 3
 
3 (KJV)  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
3 (YLT)  Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'

7 (KJV) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
7 (YLT) `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;

8 (KJV)…born of the spirit
8 (YLT)…born of the spirit




Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.


Young's Literal Translation


Gen 5:3 And Adam liveth an hundred and thirty years, and begetteth a son in his likeness, according to his image, and calleth his name Seth.
 
Comment: The first Adam was called a son of God.  His descendants were not called the sons of God.

1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Comment: vs. 46 pertains to both Christ first (Col 1:15), and those born of God and Christ after him.
 
1 Cor 15:47 The first man (Adam) is of the earth, earthy: the second man (second Adam) is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Comment: Christ is the first resurrected from the dead.  He is the second Adam in heaven.  The church is the first to bear his image and be called the sons of God, like he is the son of God.  We put on Christ.  We are a direct descendant of God through Christ and are called the sons of God.
 
1 John 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.





« Last Edit: Today at 02:19:26 by Truthcomber »

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #512 on: Sun Jun 17, 2018 - 06:57:58 »
Michael wrote:

So here you are saying that David is a descendant of the second Adam, which of course could not be read in scriptures.

Now, regarding the question of Jesus to the Pharisees in Mt.22:42, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?”, the Pharisees answered "The Son of David.”. Did they answer correctly the question of Jesus? Was that not your answer as well? If their answer was correct, how come Jesus made a remark that apparently objects to it saying “How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord...?". Which leads Jesus further to ask them in verse 45, "If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his Son?”, which no one could answer. Experts and teachers of all Israel as they are, not one could answer Jesus' question.   

Apparently you have an answer to Jesus' question, which is, "David called Christ his master or Lord according to becoming a descendant of  the second Adam."



My Response:


A definite yes, Christ is the Lord of David according to the spirit.  For Christ is the first to be resurrected from the dead.  David came later as a spirit descendant of Christ.

Michael wrote:

Considering your answer to Jesus' question, let's look at the question a little closer. The question is, "If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his Son?”. It is obvious that, the matter of David calling the Christ "Lord" objects to the matter of the Christ being his son. For one David is king. Do you know of a king that calls his son "Lord"? Is it not that a son is subordinate to his father, even a king at that? In Jesus' question, we see the matter of a father king calling his son Lord as absolutely objectionable and ridiculous at least, if not altogether blasphemous and unrighteous. As such, Jesus' question becomes rethorical. It impress that the Pharisees are mistaken in their knowledge about the Christ. But that is not to say that the Christ is not the son of David, for He is, according to the flesh. So, there obviously is an answer to this question that explains why David calls the Christ "Lord", even while He is said to be only his son.

My Response:

Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Comment: David, as well as the saints will sit with Christ on his throne. 

Michael wrote:


Now, regarding your answer, it basically says one thing, that is, David descended from the Christ (however that came to be and what you take that to really mean). To comment on that, David then becomes the son of Christ, according to the second Adam. That obviously does not answer the question. It even presents a reversed scenario compared to what Jesus had presented and based His question, that is, on the matter that the Christ is the son of David.

Why is it that not even one of the Pharisees could answer a question coming out from the scriptures which they are known to be experts and teachers of? That is because they could not see that the Christ is the Son of God, the Lord. For if they knew and accepted that, then the matter that David calls Him 'Lord' is not that difficult for them to understand.   

My Response:  

NO! Christ is the son of God and is a God directly under Almighty God.  He is not almighty God.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Psalm 82:6
  I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children (sons of God) of the most High.
« Last Edit: Sun Jun 17, 2018 - 23:23:53 by Truthcomber »

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #513 on: Sun Jun 17, 2018 - 07:00:08 »
Human spirit. He lived a perfect life of obedience IN HIS FLESH as a MAN. His Divinity could NOT be increase or diminished, IMPOSSIBLE regardless of your heresy that teaches that he did! You said: Your two posts as all of the rest of posts reeks with a stink of corruption that reaches to God's nostrils that he will eliminate from off of the earth when he comes again. You have no clue of the doctrine of the Godhead if YOU THINK that one can grow infinitely to become closer and closer to God Almighty’s attributes that is blasphemy~also, Jesus was God in HUMAN FLESH, a truth of godliness that's is hidden from your understanding. The Word in the beginning which WAS GOD, was manifested in the FLESH in the person of Jesus Christ. He was BOTH FULLY man, and FULLY Divinity!  He possessed EVERY attribute that God possessed the very second he was conceived~the Word which was God JOINED HIMSELF to the tabernacle of the Son of the Highest. You reject Jesus as having a complex nature, both man and God, that keeps you reeking in corruption. It is the worst smell that I have ever smell!

My Response:
  No it is you and you trinity that stinks, not the truth. 

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #514 on: Sun Jun 17, 2018 - 07:17:35 »
My Response:  No it is you........  that stinks.
You know that how?  Just like you know everything else you post here.  You think it  --  you post it  --  you "know" it.

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #515 on: Sun Jun 17, 2018 - 07:24:13 »
My Response:  No it is you and you trinity that stinks, not the truth.
Really? Then answer this: Can true Divinity be deprived or propagated? You say yes, but the very thought of this in a positive way is blasphemy against the God of the holy scriptures. What is real Divinity of the Highest? The following attributes have ever been conceived as essential to it: "Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience,  Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind."

Prove that your doctrine does not reek to high heaven~because it DOES!

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #516 on: Today at 02:17:10 »
John 1:18 No (one) hath seen God at any time; the only begotten (from the dead) Son, which "is" in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 3:13 (a) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, (b) but he that came down from heaven, (c) even the Son of man which "is" in heaven. 14 (d) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:


Comment
    a, b, c, and d were all foreordained:  In the mind of God, the result of the Messiah being born, crucified, resurrected and glorified had already happened from eternity.  In the mind of God, his son always existed with him in a glorified state (notice “is” in  John 1:18 and John 3:13c), even when Christ was here on earth.  The Messiah was in heaven as the glorified Christ in the bosom of our heavenly father. Christ knew that (John 17:5).  Both (a)and (d) go together: in our reality, Christ had not yet ascended into heaven and had not been glorified (another definition of ascended) when the Messiah was here on earth.  Now (b) in God’s mind says that Christ, a man, had already ascended into heaven And (c) states that Christ is in heaven because he had  already ascended into heaven (b).




John 1:18 does not say that the Messiah, had seen God.  Those that have seen Christ have seen the image of God, in both character (John 14:7,10) and body (John 14:9), and thus have seen God.

John 1:9 That (the word or spirit of God) was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God (light), even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Comment: Now God is not a "he".  As expounded upon above, the spirit or word of God is God and is personified in John 1.  It became one with the flesh of Christ when he was born from above in the womb of his mother Mary.

Matt 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. 

Comment
: Christ was born from above with the spirit of God  and was the light or representative of God.  The church also are born of God (the spirit of God with the soul of the Messiah bonded to it )and become the light of the world. 




Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Comment: "ascend" into heaven also means to raise to the level of being like God. Lucifer tried it.

So Christ was glorified as the son of God after he "ascended" into heaven and never before that.


John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.[

 
Comment: You will notice their is a gap between "before the world was" in John 17:5 and the time he was resurrected and ascended into heaven.  What happened to the Messiah's glory in the interim.  Well, the Messiah was also crucified before the world was.   And he also had a ascended into heaven (John 3:13 c). All this was real in the mind of God--before the physical earth and before Christ existed physically in our reality. 

Romans 4:17 ….and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Comment: The point being that Christ was not in existence in our reality until he was conceived and born about 2000 years ago, not before.  He is not eternal like his heavenly father is. 

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #517 on: Today at 02:46:15 »
Really? Then answer this: Can true Divinity be deprived or propagated? You say yes, but the very thought of this in a positive way is blasphemy against the God of the holy scriptures. What is real Divinity of the Highest? The following attributes have ever been conceived as essential to it: "Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience,  Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind."

Prove that your doctrine does not reek to high heaven~because it DOES!




My Response:



2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature

1 Cor 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Comment: Man will partake in the divine nature of Christ. The partaking takes place in earnest at the receiving of the holy spirit (2 Cor 1:22).

 

Eph 1:22 And (Almighty God) hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
 
Comment: Christ and his church will be one in spirit and in substance. They are glorified as one—like husband and wife is one person (Matt 19:6, Eph 5:25-31).




Rev 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star
 
Comment: Christ is the head of the church.


 
 
1 Cor 15:41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

Matt 13:43 (blb) Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun (a star) in the kingdom of their Father. The one having ears, let him hear!

Dan 12:3 (NIV) Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him (Christ: 1John 2:28) as he is.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Comment
: Christ’s church (body) will be like Christ in spirit and in body.  But all will different in glory (1 Cor 15:41).  Every man should receive his reward according to his works.


 

Romans 14:11
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

1 Cor :8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God (almighty God), the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Comment
: Yes, the Messsiah is a God, under almighty God, and one that has inherited his name.  He should be worshiped.  When he was on earth, he was worshiped, and rightful so, for he was to become a might God directly under his father.  He is the expressed copy of the almighty.  The saints will be Gods under the Messiah. They too will have inherited the unknown name of God.  Thus, they will be worshiped as Gods by those under them. 



Rev 19:16
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Comment: eventually all of humanity will inherit the name of God.




Psalm 82:4
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him (the Messiah for sure) a little lower than (the God almighty), and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Eph 3:14
For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15  Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,



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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #518 on: Today at 02:52:01 »
You know that how?  Just like you know everything else you post here.  You think it  --  you post it  --  you "know" it.

I pray to God for understanding --- meditate on his word  --- post.

I do not claim to have to have so called superior rational exegesis to understand the word of God.  One cannot.  God has to reveal it to him.  I know one thing---God resists the proud and gives understanding to the humble.   

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #519 on: Today at 06:30:49 »
I pray to God for understanding --- meditate on his word  --- post.

I do not claim to have to have so called superior rational exegesis to understand the word of God.  One cannot.  God has to reveal it to him.  I know one thing---God resists the proud and gives understanding to the humble.
In your case, Truthcomber, it ain't workin' !!

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #520 on: Today at 07:21:40 »

 




 
 
Truthcomber so we are going to be worshipped as Gods. Where do you get this stuff from?  Who is going to be under us ?
 


[[/b]: Yes, the Messsiah is a God, under almighty God, and one that has inherited his name.  He should be worshiped.  When he was on earth, he was worshiped, and rightful so, for he was to become a might God directly under his father.  He is the expressed copy of the almighty.  The saints will be Gods under the Messiah. They too will have inherited the unknown name of God.  Thus, they will be worshiped as Gods by those under them. 




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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #521 on: Today at 09:07:24 »





 
 
Truthcomber so we are going to be worshipped as Gods. Where do you get this stuff from?  Who is going to be under us ?
 


[[/b]: Yes, the Messsiah is a God, under almighty God, and one that has inherited his name.  He should be worshiped.  When he was on earth, he was worshiped, and rightful so, for he was to become a might God directly under his father.  He is the expressed copy of the almighty.  The saints will be Gods under the Messiah. They too will have inherited the unknown name of God.  Thus, they will be worshiped as Gods by those under them.



Rev 20:6
  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection…


 
Rev 19:16 And he (Christ) hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS (Luke 19:16-19).

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Comment: Notice the order of rank in Rev 3:21: God Almighty > the Messiah > the church.




1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. .



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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #522 on: Today at 09:09:55 »
In your case, Truthcomber, it ain't workin' !!

Answer me one question: Do you pray to God for understanding --- meditate on his word  --- post?  Yes or no!

« Last Edit: Today at 09:17:33 by Truthcomber »

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #523 on: Today at 09:13:45 »
4WD

Do you believe that God created all things, or do you believe that evolution played a part in it?
« Last Edit: Today at 09:16:53 by Truthcomber »

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Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Reply #524 on: Today at 09:18:20 »
Truthcomber,

Do you know what the word "create" means when the Bible uses it in relation to God?

 

     
anything