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Christian Interests => Theology Forum => Topic started by: Kenneth Sublett on Sun May 13, 2018 - 15:10:39

Title: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Sun May 13, 2018 - 15:10:39
Quote
The dead are in the grave; they don't have some "immortal spirit being" trapped in their bodies that cannot die, and thus must exist somewhere.

Eccl. 12:5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is HIGH,

        H1364. gaboahh, gaw-bo´-ah; or (fully) gabowahh, gaw-bo´-ah;
        from 1361; elevated (or elated), powerful, arrogant:—haughty, height,
        high(-er), lofty, proud, x exceeding proudly.

and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden,

         H2284. chagab, khaw-gawb´; of uncertain derivation; a locust:—locust.

Eccl. 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Eccl. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
        and the SPIRITS shall return unto God who gave it.
        and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home,
        and the mourners go about the streets:

Locusts in the theology John refutes and prophesies about are the Muses or the Musical Worship Team of Apollon.  They are Musical Worshipers LED by Apollon and known as dirty adulteresses.  Their task is to separate those OF THE WORLD from those FROM ABOVE who are the spirits Jesus was sent to seek and save.  These spirits are PARKED in a Safe House free for the HIGH AND ARROGANT clergy.  Of those who have been SAVED and added to the church:

Col. 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
       and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
       
       trans-ĕo 2. To go or pass over into any thing by transformation,
       to be changed or transformed into a thing
     
       Rom. 12:2 And be not conformed to this world:
             but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind,
             that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable,
             and perfect, WILL OF GOD [The Word, Logos Regulative Principle]

[/b]Heb. 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion,
        and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,
        and to an innumerable company of angels,

Of Those who are added to the Ekklesia of Christ:

Heb. 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, [Christ]
        which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all,
        and to the SPIRITS
        of just men made PERFECT,

Apollo, Apollyon [The Destroyers] or Abaddon

(http://www.piney.com/Aeido.Locusts.CM.gif)

And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. Rev 18:21
And the voice of harpers, and musicians [Muses], and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; Rev 18:22

And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy SORCERERS were all nations deceived. Rev 18:23
    And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints,
    and of all that were slain upon the earth. Rev 18:24

Rev. 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image.
       These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone

Rev. 20:14 And DEATH and HELL were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev. 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Sun May 13, 2018 - 16:48:43
False teacher use their human reasoning to refute the clear statements of Scripture
At the same time they are Purpose Driven to turn church as A school of the Word into a theater for rhetorical and musical performance.  History and Scripture shows that men use the performing arts and crafts to DECEIVE the paying audience as a COVENANT intending to prove that THEY are not subject to the SECOND DEATH casting themselves INTO A LAKE OF FIRE. The do not grasp that DEATH and HELL are gods people worship to mock God that THEY CANNOT BE LOST.

The Mock the use of Amos Who spoke by the Spirit OF Christ without having a hint about what He is defining.

"In pagan traditions, musical instruments are invented by gods or demi-gods, such as titans. In the Bible, credit is assigned to antediluvian patriarchs, for example, the descendants of Cain in Genesis 4:21. There is no other biblical tradition about the invention of musical instruments." (Freedman, David Noel, Bible Review, Summer 1985, p. 51).

Conrad L'Heureux demonstrated that the marzeah, or symposium (feast, gathering, banquet, assembly) of El that is found in the Rephaim Texts of Ugarit "must be a reflex in the divine world of the symposium celebrated by the members of the earthly marzeah of El...each guild apparently had a divine patron."42 The heavenly marzeah had participants called rp'm, which we also find in the earthly marzeah, e.g., "May Krt be greatly exalted among the rp'm of the earth...the rp'm constitute an aristocracy of which the Canaanite kings were a part."43

Note 42: Conrad L'Heureux, "The Ugaritic and Biblical Rephaim," Harvard Theological Review, 67(1974): 270-271.

Note 43. Conrad L'Heureux, Rephaim, 271. Cf. 272, footnote 25, the authority of El is ordinarily exercised through the younger generation of gods whom we could call the executive deities. It is also possible to understand the term rp'm as "the assembly of the gods." The entire premise of Jacobsen's article "Primitive Democracy," is that the groups and assemblies on earth reflected what the gods had done in heaven.

PAUL BUILDS ON ISAIAH 28

Is. 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?
        them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Is. 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line;
      here a little, and there a little:
Is. 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Is. 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may CAUSE THE WEARY TO REST
        and this is the REFRESHING: yet they would not hear.
Is. 28:13 But the WORD of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
        line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little;
        that they might go, and FALL BACKWARD, and be BROKEN, and SNARED, and TAKEN.

Is. 28:14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

OF THE MURMURERS AND SCORNFUL

Ps 1:1  Blessed is the man that
        walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly,
        nor standeth in the way of sinners,
        nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
       
Impĭus (inp- ), a, um, adj. 2. in-pius, I. without reverence or respect for God, one's parents, or one's country; irreverent, ungodly, undutiful, unpatriotic; abandoned, wicked, impious (rare but class.; cf.: nefarius, sacrilegus. Tumultus  “quis sonitu ac tumultu tanto nomine nominat me atque pulsat aedes?” Plaut. Bacch. 5, 2, 1: B. Of speech, confusion, disorder: “sermonis,” Plin. 7, 12, 10, § 55: “criminum,”

       sŏnĭtus , “vocis,” id. A. 3, 669: “tubae  “tubarum, convivarum,

        Pulso Of musical instruments: “chordas digitis et pectine eburno,”
        to strike, play upon, Verg. A. 6, 647: “chelyn,” [HARP]  Val. Fl. 1, 139:
       “pectine nervos,” Sil. 5, 463: “cymbala,”

Is. 28:15 Because ye have said,
        We have made a covenant with death,

Paul refers to Isaiah 28 when defining speaking in tongues. The word speaking includes playing musical instruments to MAKE THE LAMBS DUMB BEFORE THE SLAUGHTER             
     
        The Covenant
        Percutio: PIERCE, TRANSFIGURE, SLAY,To strike, beat, hit, smite, shoot,
          To strike, play a musical instrument (poet.): “lyram,” Ov. Am. 3, 12, 40;
         Val. Fl. 5, 100.—

Worship of a "goddess" in that they planned to ESCAPE SPIRITUAL DEATH.

        A GODDESS  Mors   Spiritual death
                Rev. 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;
                He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

and with hell are we at agreement;

        GODS

    infernus
    underground, belonging to the Lower Regions, infernal: “rex,” Pluto, Verg. A. 6, 106: “Juno,” Proserpine, id. ib. 6, 138: “sedes,” id. ib. 8, 244: “tenebrae,”

    JUNO A GODDESS, Venus, Zoe, Lucifer
    2. A prison, dungeon: 3. Lurking-places, haunts: 5. The infernal regions:

when the overflowing scourge shall pass through,
It shall not come unto us:
for we have made lies our refuge,
and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Is. 28:16 THEREFORE , thus saith the Lord GOD,
        Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone,
        a precious corner stone, a sure foundation:
        he that believeth shall not make haste.
Is. 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet:
        and the hail shall sweep away the REFUGE OF LIES
        and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
Is. 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled,
        and your agreement with hell shall not stand;
        when the overflowing scourge shall pass through,
        then ye shall be trodden down by it.


HERE IS HOW THE JEWS AND ALMOST EVERYONE PLANS TO ESCAPE THE SECOND DEATH

(http://www.piney.com/Mocking.Jesus.Full.gif)

Forever may be for a certain time.  However, you have to worry about forever and forever.
We are CERTAIN that Scripture IDENTIFIES the WHOME. shall be cast into the LAKE OF FIRE.

Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Sun May 20, 2018 - 14:30:08
God will do what He promises to do: I would worry a lot about going against Scripture and the translations we have available.

The Spirit OF Christ guided Isaiah:

Isa 1:21 How is the faithful city become an harlot
      it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

Isa 1:22 Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:

Isa 1:23 Thy princes are rebellious,
      and companions of thieves:
      every one loveth gifts,
      and followeth after rewards:
      they judge not the fatherless,
      neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

Isa 1:24 Therefore saith the Lord, the Lord of hosts, the MIGHTY ONE Israel,
      Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries,
      and avenge me of mine enemies.

Isa 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors
       and of the sinners shall be together,
       and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed.

con-sūmo   of food, to eat, consume, devour, to consume, devour, waste, squander, annihilate, destroy, bring to naught, kill. to waste, weaken, enervate:
dē-rĕlinquo , to forsake wholly, to abandon, desert

After they are CONSUMED:

Isa 1:29 For they shall be ashamed of the oaks which ye have desired,
      and ye shall be confounded for the gardens that ye have chosen.

Isa 1:30 For ye shall be as an oak whose leaf fadeth,
       and as a garden that hath no water.

Isa 1:31 And the strong shall be as tow,
      and the maker of it as a spark,
      and they shall both burn together,
      and none shall quench THEM.

ex-stinguo  to deprive of life or strength, to kill, destroy,  to abolish, destroy, annihilate

Shall NOT be deprived of Life or ANNIHILATED. The Body (flesh) and Soul (its Animation) can be ANNIHILATED but I don't believe that spirits can be Annihilated.
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Sun May 20, 2018 - 21:13:41
What is the motive for trying to explain away plain statements of Scripture. No one understands the depth of iniquity of people whose purpose is to DECEIVE People.  Jude says they were FOREORDAINED so we don't have a grasp of "Very old Spirits" who refuse to rest day and night.

For Ever and Ever for God and the Saints

Rev. 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father;
       to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev. 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen.
       And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him
       that liveth for ever and ever.
Rev. 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving,
        and honour, and power, and might, be
         unto our God for ever and ever.. Amen
Rev. 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

IF forever is a LONG PERIOD then forever and ever has no limits.

g165. aion, ahee-ohn´; from the same as 104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): — age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare 5550.

For Ever and Ever for the Beasts and those deceived
 .
Rev. 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever.
        and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image,
        and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev. 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about,
        and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev. 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE AND BRIMSTONE
        where the beast and the false prophet are,
        and shall be TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER

 
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: BTR on Tue May 22, 2018 - 07:02:24
Hi Ken,
I'm going to bring this here, as I know you don't like to post in a certain thread.

"Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Body is physical, do you think God gives them a resurrected body then destroys it? Spirits dont have a body, then again this verse doesn't mention a spirit. The body that sons of God recieve is an incoruptable body a different body. If the unregenerated man is raised in their body. and what about the blood?, I was under the impression that the spirit was in the blood, "your brothers blood cries out to me from the ground".

I have a hard time accepting the idea of the lost being tortured without end for not believing. Destroy as in to put an end to; extinguish. Eternal life is a gift we are not born with it.

but then theres this.

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
-Rev. 14:11

"in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:" "he" in the presence of.  And the smoke of "their" torment ascendeth up and "they" have no rest.

I will have to read more of what you have posted here. But Im also wondering if Im thinking in a Greek mindset, confused.
Im going to go over what you already have posted here, I did notice this;

Rev. 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE AND BRIMSTONE
        where the beast and the false prophet are,
        and shall be TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER"
   The devil is the "he" and the beast and false prophet are the "they"?

I have not spent much time studying in this area. But I have been in the thought that the unsaved or the ones who do not believe just die.

Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Tue May 22, 2018 - 21:20:02
I do not know how long for Ever and Ever is BUT I know who gets burned.  God breathing the same Spirit OF Christ defined the Assyrians and also Jews who went into musical procession to Jerusalem to BURN infants.
(http://www.piney.com/Max.Lucado.Molech.Col.Wiki.gif)
(http://www.piney.com/Isaiah.30.Lxx.New.gif)
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: LaSpino3 on Wed May 23, 2018 - 10:58:21
The question: "How long is for-ever and ever in hell?"

Answer, "It's forever and ever!"

Phil
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: soterion on Wed May 23, 2018 - 11:53:05
The question: "How long is for-ever and ever in hell?"

Answer, "It's forever and ever!"

Phil

Exactly. The answer was found in the question.  rofl
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: Jaime on Wed May 23, 2018 - 13:40:52
Does “ever lasting” have any other connotation than forever?
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Wed May 23, 2018 - 16:27:24
Is. 26:4 Trust ye in the Lord for ever: for in the Lord JEHOVAH is EVERLASTING strength:
Is. 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites.
       Who among us shall dwell with the DEVOURING fire? [Literally to eat, burn up]
       who among us shall dwell with EVERLASTING burnings?
Is. 40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard,
       that the EVERLASTING God, the Lord,
       the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary?
       there is no searching of his understanding.
Jer. 20:11 But the Lord is with me as a mighty TERRIBLE one:
       therefore my persecutors shall stumble,
       and they shall not prevail: they shall be greatly ashamed;
       for they shall not prosper: their EVERLASTING confusion shall NEVER BE FORGOTTEN.

People pick what they want in order to DISPUTE with God and the Scriptures:

h5769 owlam, o-lawm´;  olam, o-lawm´; from 5956; properly, concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity;
      frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always:—alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, (n-))ever(-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare 5331, 5703..

NEW TESTAMENT

Matt. 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee:
        IT IS BETTER for thee to enter into life halt or maimed,
        rather than having two hands or two feet
        to be cast into EVERLASTING FIRE.

Why not just keep BOTH HANDS is the EVERLASTING is not EVERLASTING and FIRE is not FIRE?

Matt. 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,
         Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE,
         prepared for the devil and his angels:

Rev. 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven,
      having the EVERLASTING gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth,
      and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

g166.  aionios, ahee-o´-nee-os; from 165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): — eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Aion can be a time period such as the MESSIANIC WORLD requiired to accomplish it's purpose.  However, you have to look carefully about those things NOT involved with EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT. I am not smart enough to JUDGE GOD.  For instance

Jude 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate,
       but left their own habitation,
       he hath reserved in EVERLASTING chains under DARKNESS
       unto the judgment of the great day.

Jude 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner,
       giving themselves over to fornication,
       and going after strange flesh,
       are set forth for an example,
       suffering the vengeance of ETERNAL FIRE [there is no termination identified]

Eternal:
g126  aidios, ah-id´-ee-os; from 104; everduring (forward and backward, or forward only): — eternal, everlasting.
g104. ajei÷ aei, ah-eye´; from an obsolete primary noun (apparently meaning continued duration); “ever,” by qualification regularly; by implication, earnestly; — always, ever.

VENGEANCE BELONGS TO THE LORD: NEVER BELIEVE THE FALSE TEACHERS

Jude 10 But these speak evil
        of those things which they know not:
        but what they know naturally,
        as brute beasts,
        in those things they corrupt themselves.

249. a‡logoß alogos, al´-og-os; from 1 (as a negative particle) and 3056; irrational: — brute, unreasonable.

 
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: lea on Wed May 23, 2018 - 18:25:29
"The Lord preserves all who love him; but all the wicked will he destroy" (Psa. 145:20).

Here is an interesting article about hell:

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/endless.html
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: BTR on Thu May 24, 2018 - 06:26:20
I agree with the article lea.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. -Rom. 6:23

There is something wrong in the minds of those who seem to enjoy the idea of endless torcher. Or using this idea to win people or keep them inline, they are missing the message.
It is not a correct view of the Father to hold or give to others in my opinion.

Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. -1Tim. 6:12
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: RB on Thu May 24, 2018 - 07:02:33
There are many sound biblical arguments that teach clearly that when the wicked are cast into the lake of fire (which IS I'm convinced is when THIS world is destroyed by fire)~the lake of fire IS the SECOND DEATH where the wicked shall perish just as John 3:16 said and other scriptures as well.

I have posted some long post concerning this on this forum, I need to locate them, or do it again~One on my strongest arguments in supporting the destruction of the wicked is this one MAIN point: To say that wicked must suffer for eternity overthrows the sufficiency of Christ suffering. Jesus Christ DID borne the WHOLE punishment of sin..... which WAS DEATH~the punishment for sins is NOT suffering for eternity in a lake of fire, Jesus DID NOT suffer the SECOND DEATH, YET he DID fully pay for our sins by his death.

Later, I have many meetings to attend.
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: soterion on Thu May 24, 2018 - 09:30:52
There are many sound biblical arguments that teach clearly that when the wicked are cast into the lake of fire (which IS I'm convinced is when THIS world is destroyed by fire)~the lake of fire IS the SECOND DEATH where the wicked shall perish just as John 3:16 said and other scriptures as well.

I have posted some long post concerning this on this forum, I need to locate them, or do it again~One on my strongest arguments in supporting the destruction of the wicked is this one MAIN point: To say that wicked must suffer for eternity overthrows the sufficiency of Christ suffering. Jesus Christ DID borne the WHOLE punishment of sin..... which WAS DEATH~the punishment for sins is NOT suffering for eternity in a lake of fire, Jesus DID NOT suffer the SECOND DEATH, YET he DID fully pay for our sins by his death.

Later, I have many meetings to attend.

I can't agree that Jesus bore the whole punishment for sin.

Regardless of how one views hell, eternal suffering or immediate annihilation, that would be the whole punishment for sin, and Jesus never experienced either. Hell is the punishment for sin, and Jesus never went there.

Jesus experienced physical death, and that's it. The book of Hebrews makes clear the case that the offering of Christ’s body and blood on the cross satisfies God’s requirement for a perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world. Making the perfect sacrifice is not near the same thing as bearing the whole punishment.
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Thu May 24, 2018 - 11:06:53
JESUS DIED FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD BUT HE DIDN'T PRAY FOR THEM. 

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith,
        Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Gal. 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins,
        that he might DELIVER us from this present EVIL WORLD according to the will of God and our Father:

The lost Spirits were IN the World but they were not OF the World. The World is the Kosmos, the ecumenical or the kingdom of the Devil and all that he can seduce.  ETERNAL torment is as long as ETERNAL Life with God.

Luke 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
       
g931.  basanos, bas´-an-os; perhaps remotely from the same as 939 (through the notion of going to the bottom); a touch-stone, i.e. (by analogy) torture: — torment.

Rev. 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
       which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;
       and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev. 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:
       and they have no rest day nor night,
       who worship the beast and his image,
       and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The WORMS not only speak of maggots who eat up the flesh at the garbage pit but MAN is a WORD which does not die.

Job 19:23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
Job 19:24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth,
       and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job 19:26 And though after my SKIN worms destroy this body,
        YET IN MY FLESH SHALL I SEE GOD
Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself,
        and mine eyes shall behold, and not another;
        though my reins be consumed within me.
Job 25:4 How then can man be justified with God?
        or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?
Job 25:5 Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not;
        yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.
Job 25:6 How much less man, THAT IS A WORM?
        and the son of man, WHICH IS A WORM?

Psa. 22:4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
Psa. 22:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
Psa. 22:6 BUT I AM A WORM, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Psa. 22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
Psa. 22:8 He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
Psa. 22:9 But thou art he THAT TOOK ME OUT OF THE WOMB:
        thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother’s breasts.
Psa. 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb:
        thou art my God from my mother’s belly.
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: BTR on Sat May 26, 2018 - 23:59:41
"Job 19:26 And though after my SKIN worms destroy this body,
        YET IN MY FLESH SHALL I SEE GOD"


to raise up my skin being fatigued by these things. For by the Lord these things were exhausted on me; -Job 19:26 (Greek-English interlinear Polyglot LXX)

Pretty big difference here.


"Job 25:6 How much less man, THAT IS A WORM?
        and the son of man, WHICH IS A WORM?"


but alas, man is rotteness, and the son of man a worm. -Job 25:6 (Greek-English interlinear Polyglot LXX)



 





Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: bemark on Sun May 27, 2018 - 00:49:18
Has time been created so we can live out our lives because we must die. So when its all done and dusted its eternal. Will we even know its our birthday. The Lord is our light not the day nor the night.
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: bemark on Sun May 27, 2018 - 01:00:48
What is Gods punishment. Eternal seperation from him. Romans 1 he turns his back away. Jesus said why have you abandoned me.

Will he choose not to hear the one who sees and hears,,,,, even in hell.

His throne is Justice and Mercy. Justice must be served but mercy must endure. Hell is the mercy of God when he destroys those who dont want to be with him . He destroys body and soul. Lights out
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: bemark on Sun May 27, 2018 - 01:03:58
sorry my mistake its the lake of fire
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: RB on Sun May 27, 2018 - 04:53:16
I can't agree that Jesus bore the whole punishment for sin.
Of course you do not believe in it, because then you would have to admit that Jesus' atonement was LIMITED in its nature. Here is where men like you who have embraced a system with holes in its fortress of faith.

But be assured that Jesus suffered the full punishment by God's law for the sins of his people, or else, his sacrifice was NOT a sufficient payment that God's law demanded. Jesus rendered a perfect life to be put to death to secure his people from the second death~all whose sins are not atoned for, shall suffer the second death in the lake of fire where they shall perish.
Quote from: soterion Thu May 24, 2018 - 09:30:52
Regardless of how one views hell, eternal suffering or immediate annihilation, that would be the whole punishment for sin, and Jesus never experienced either. Hell is the punishment for sin, and Jesus never went there.
Well, the second death is the punishment for dying in one's sins, and I agree (with your statement~"I can't agree that Jesus bore the whole punishment for sin.") that that payment was NOT paid for by Jesus' life and death....YET, Jesus' atonement was a perfect sacrifice that renders a FULL payment for the sins of his elect, and SINCE Jesus did not suffer the second death, the second death IS NOT a endless torment where sinners must suffer.

Did I make myself plain? I'm asking in sincerity, not in pride, God forbid. Such doctrine is easy to get twisted and make a mistake in presenting it.
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: bemark on Sun May 27, 2018 - 06:20:46
Jesus Christ took the whole wrath of God on himself so we can be free. Thats ALL sin because he became it. Anything else would have been a crack that the demonic realm could have said but this . No loop holes in this court of law.
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: bemark on Sun May 27, 2018 - 06:27:34
The true punishment is when God turns his back against us and says no more shall i be with you. Its seperation . That is hell, no light, no goodnes. The grace or mercy of God is when he ends it
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: soterion on Sun May 27, 2018 - 06:37:41
Of course you do not believe in it, because then you would have to admit that Jesus' atonement was LIMITED in its nature. Here is where men like you who have embraced a system with holes in its fortress of faith.

But be assured that Jesus suffered the full punishment by God's law for the sins of his people, or else, his sacrifice was NOT a sufficient payment that God's law demanded. Jesus rendered a perfect life to be put to death to secure his people from the second death~all whose sins are not atoned for, shall suffer the second death in the lake of fire where they shall perish.

Well, the second death is the punishment for dying in one's sins, and I agree (with your statement~"I can't agree that Jesus bore the whole punishment for sin.") that that payment was NOT paid for by Jesus' life and death....YET, Jesus' atonement was a perfect sacrifice that renders a FULL payment for the sins of his elect, and SINCE Jesus did not suffer the second death, the second death IS NOT a endless torment where sinners must suffer.

Did I make myself plain? I'm asking in sincerity, not in pride, God forbid. Such doctrine is easy to get twisted and make a mistake in presenting it.

I was originally responding to this from an earlier post from you:

Quote
Jesus Christ DID borne the WHOLE punishment of sin..... which WAS DEATH~the punishment for sins is NOT suffering for eternity in a lake of fire, Jesus DID NOT suffer the SECOND DEATH, YET he DID fully pay for our sins by his death.

It looks like you are saying that Christ's physical death is equal to His bearing the whole punishment for sin, and thus that bearing the whole punishment for sin is the same thing as His fully paying for our sins. This is what I disagree with.

Bearing the whole punishment for sin is not the same thing as fully paying for sin, not when that payment is a substitutionary sacrifice. Jesus satisfied God's requirement of such a sacrifice with His freely offered physical death. Jesus did not bear the whole punishment for sin that the lost will have to bear, regardless of what that punishment is. Physical death is not the whole punishment for sin.

It seems from your last post above in your last paragraph that you agree with this. ::shrug::
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: soterion on Sun May 27, 2018 - 06:43:36
Jesus Christ took the whole wrath of God on himself so we can be free. Thats ALL sin because he became it. Anything else would have been a crack that the demonic realm could have said but this . No loop holes in this court of law.

Well, hell is where the unsaved will bear the whole wrath of God, whatever form it takes and for however long/short that it lasts.

Jesus didn't go to hell.
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: bemark on Sun May 27, 2018 - 07:16:07
So did Jesus smoke weed or do coke? Was he raped . How could he have experienced what othres have been through. How can he forgive a sin that he didnt experience or know the torment i have been through. Is that is what you are asking? He became sin and in doing so he knew us , because we died with him on that cross. He knew us  each, then . That is why we are raised with him. He has the memory not us...maybe ask him to reveal it to you . I dont know if i could handle it. Not the full crucifiction. His hands peiced was enough for me to put me on the floor. 

Is God unfair and you would  say no Like I.  Or are you saying Jesus Christ only experienced a fraction of Gods wrath because it was limited to 3 days give or take . or did he experience God total wrath in 3 days so experienced it all. Is the wrath of God based on time served or is it eternal as in I believe seperation ( Jesus didnt experience 3 days of seperation but a moment on the cross...getting my point across in time etc ). Im looking for answers as well my friend
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: 4WD on Sun May 27, 2018 - 07:21:54
It looks like you are saying that Christ's physical death is equal to His bearing the whole punishment for sin, and thus that bearing the whole punishment for sin is the same thing as His fully paying for our sins. This is what I disagree with.

Bearing the whole punishment for sin is not the same thing as fully paying for sin, not when that payment is a substitutionary sacrifice. Jesus satisfied God's requirement of such a sacrifice with His freely offered physical death. Jesus did not bear the whole punishment for sin that the lost will have to bear, regardless of what that punishment is. Physical death is not the whole punishment for sin.
Christ's death on the cross is said, in Hebrews, to be a ransom:

Heb_9:15  For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Jesus' sacrifice is also called a propitiation (Rom 3:25; Heb 2:17; 1John 2:2; 1John 4:10)

In neither speaking of Jesus' sacrifice as a ransom nor a propitiation is it implied that Jesus went to hell in our place. He "paid the price" for our release.  That price was His death on the cross.
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: soterion on Sun May 27, 2018 - 07:35:57
bemark,

When Jesus was on the cross, He promised the thief that he would be with Him in paradise that day (Luke 23:39-43). No wrath of God there.

Yes, Jesus bore our sins, all of them, on the cross. That was the only way that our sins could be taken away. As for the seeming abandonment or forsaking by God while He was on the cross, I am not fully convinced that He believed He was completely banished from God's presence, as some see this. Jesus' faith in His Father was wholly and completely secure throughout all of His trials. He knew from the beginning of His ministry, if not before, that He would rise from the dead and ascend to the right hand of the Father.

Again, the whole wrath of God will be found in hell, whatever hell is and whatever the punishment is, and Jesus never went there. He fully paid for our sins in His sacrifice, but that is nowhere near the same thing as bearing the whole wrath of God. Even if Jesus felt for that short time completely forsaken by God when He had cried out, it is still not the same thing as hell.

Only the lost will experience hell, and thus only the lost will bear the whole wrath of God in themselves.
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: soterion on Sun May 27, 2018 - 07:36:57
Christ's death on the cross is said, in Hebrews, to be a ransom:

Heb_9:15  For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Jesus' sacrifice is also called a propitiation (Rom 3:25; Heb 2:17; 1John 2:2; 1John 4:10)

In neither speaking of Jesus' sacrifice as a ransom nor a propitiation is it implied that Jesus went to hell in our place. He "paid the price" for our release.  That price was His death on the cross.

Absolutely.  ::nodding::
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: bemark on Sun May 27, 2018 - 08:14:13
bemark,

When Jesus was on the cross, He promised the thief that he would be with Him in paradise that day (Luke 23:39-43). No wrath of God there.

Yes, Jesus bore our sins, all of them, on the cross. That was the only way that our sins could be taken away. As for the seeming abandonment or forsaking by God while He was on the cross, I am not fully convinced that He believed He was completely banished from God's presence, as some see this. Jesus' faith in His Father was wholly and completely secure throughout all of His trials. He knew from the beginning of His ministry, if not before, that He would rise from the dead and ascend to the right hand of the Father.

Again, the whole wrath of God will be found in hell, whatever hell is and whatever the punishment is, and Jesus never went there. He fully paid for our sins in His sacrifice, but that is nowhere near the same thing as bearing the whole wrath of God. Even if Jesus felt for that short time completely forsaken by God when He had cried out, it is still not the same thing as hell.

Only the lost will experience hell, and thus only the lost will bear the whole wrath of God in themselves.
Well not for the one of them but the other on the cross knows for sure. But Jesus knew  who he was for sure as he is  God . God could only be like us when he experienced us . He had to experience it or us in the flesh to become like us

. 1 sec 1 min 1 hour 1 lifetime.....he knew us in a micro second......did he need more time than that, or do we need to believe that he needs more time to fully understand us. Did God create hell? Does he not know who or what he creates and in the creating does he name it. If so he understands
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: bemark on Sun May 27, 2018 - 08:16:28
Is God mean and unfair?
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Sun May 27, 2018 - 09:54:01
I will quote just a few verses.  If you have the right MARK or SEAL you will scramble to the book of Revelation to grasp that Apollon and the Muses or Locusts are busy driving the faithful out of their own "synagogues" and separating the ungodlly.

The Locusts or MUSES are unleashed and led by Apollyon. This IS the Rapture:
    rap·ture
    Pronunciation: 'rap-ch&r
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Latin raptus
    1 a : a state or experience of being carried away by overwhelming emotion b : a mystical experience in which the spirit is exalted to a knowledge of divine things
    2 : an expression or manifestation of ecstasy or passion
    synonym see ECSTASY

Subud
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Subud
Alvar
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Alvar

Genun Composite of Jubal, Jabal, Tubal-Cain and Naamah.

http://www.piney.com/MuGenun2.html
And when he played on them, Satan came into them, so that from among them were heard beautiful and sweet sounds, that ravished (raped or enchanted) the heart. -- Second Adam and Eve 20:3

Then he gathered companies upon companies to play on them; and when they played, it pleased well the children of Cain, who inflamed themselves with sin among themselves, and burnt as with fire; while Satan inflamed their hearts, one with another, and increased lust among them. -- Second Adam and Eve 20:4

Satan also taught Genun to bring strong drink out of corn; and this Genun used to bring together companies upon companies in drink-houses; and brought into their hands all manner of fruits and flowers; and they drank together Second Adam and Eve 20:5

Paul's Version in Romans 1
http://www.piney.com/Romans.1.html

Rev. 9:3 And there came out of the smoke LOCUSTS  [Muses Led by Apollyon] upon the earth:
        and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev. 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should NOT HURT the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree;
        but only those men which HAVE NOT THE SEAL of God in their foreheads.
Revelation 9:5 They were given power not to kill them,
        but to torment them for five months.
        Their torment was like the torment of a SCORPION, when it strikes a man.

Rev. 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them,
      having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone:
      and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions;
      and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

FOREVER DEFINED FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD

Heb. 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Heb. 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will,
        working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ;
        to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1Pet. 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible,
        by the WORD of God, which liveth and abideth FOR EVER
1Pet. 1:25 But the WORD of the Lord endureth for ever.
        And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you

AGAIN THE FOREVER AND EVER

Rev. 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
       which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;
       and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels,
       and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev. 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:
       and they have no rest day nor night,
       who worship the beast and his image,

       and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

WHY NOT JUST LET "GOD HAVE HIS WAY" AND NOT LEAD PEOPLE AWAY FROM THE CONTEXT ESTABLISHED BY GOD.
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: lea on Sun May 27, 2018 - 12:25:06


Originally posted by The Boxer-
Job 19:25-26 according to the Septuagint:

For I know that he is eternal who is about to deliver me, 26 to raise up upon the earth my skin that endures these : for these things have been accomplished to me of the Lord;

A few months back I was engaged in a discussion with a poster on Job 19:25-26. The poster says that Job 19:25-26 is a proof text for the resurrection and for the second coming of Christ. He bases his theory on the English translation of the Masoretic Hebrew Text.

For I know that my redeemerliveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I seeGod:

The Septuagint is the Greek translation and revision of the Hebrew Masoretic Text. Please note that in the passage cited above the Septuagint contradicts the Masoretic Text. The Septuagint says NOTHING about the Lord standing on the earth in the last day. It is NOT about the last day at all. It says that the Eternal One was "about to" deliver Job then, and that Job's skin would be raised upon on the earth.

The Septuagint has a whole lot of authority. About 70% of all old testament quotations by Jesus and the apostles are from the Septuagint. And each time they quoted the Septuagint it contradicted the Masoretic Text. This means that Jesus and the apostles contradicted the Masoretic Text. So the Septuagint has the approval of Jesus and the apostles. We must not forget that the reason the Septuagint was produced was because it was widely believed that the Masoretic Text had undergone much corruption. So the seventy most notable Jewish scholars of that time were commissioned to produce the scriptures in Greek. And Paul told Timothy that the scriptures on which he was raised were the "holy scriptures." Timothy was raised on the Septuagint.

Furthermore, Job had no concept of the afterlife.

As the cloud disappears and vanishes away, So he who goes down to the grave does not come up.

I believe in the resurrection. But the book of Job offers no support for it and to insist that it does is unscholarly and even dishonest.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also, Rev 14:11 is wording (symbolism) that is also in Isa.34:10, another day of the Lord's judgment. That one was on Edom.

Lastly, I believe you and "piney" have no clue about what the symbolism in the Revelation verses you quoted is about.

Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Sun May 27, 2018 - 12:38:24
Edward Fudge was fired by his mother (I knew the family) for teaching false doctrine right in the middle of the birthplace of the NON-INSTITUTIONAL MOVEMENT. Whatever the ACAPPELLA church practices is wrong, wrong, wrong. Fudge Believes that the evil dead ONCE DESTROYED are resurrected, suffer for a perios and then annihilated.

Fudge has a long list of passages IGNORING CONTEXT which he reads and concludes that the wicked are Annihiliated or pass out of existence. One such passage is

2Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was,
        being overflowed with water,
        PERISHED:

Well, my house still sits on a firm foundation

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that SLEEP in the dust of the earth shall awake,
        some to everlasting LIFE,
        and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

H5769 ‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm o-lawm', o-lawm' From H5956 ; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always:—always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331 , H5703

H5703 ‛ad ad From H5710 ; properly a (peremptory) √, that is, (by implication) duration, in the sense of perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition):—eternity, ever (-lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.

Why worry about it if you GO OUT OF EXISTENCE and can feel no shame.

Eccl. 12:7 Then shall the DUST return to the earth as it WAS:
       and the SPIRIT shall return unto God who gave it.

Quote
And Paul told Timothy that the scriptures on which he was raised were the "holy scriptures." Timothy was raised on the Septuagint.

They never read translations in the synagogue: that is why the reader may have to "give the sense" of the passage.  You must be a magician to know what Timothy read.

Jesus defines HOLY SCRIPTURES as the PROPHETS and other prophecies CONCERNING ME.

Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: lea on Sun May 27, 2018 - 13:23:23
K.S.,
No. Paul knew what scriptures Timothy was raised on!
" In his letter to St. Timothy, St. Paul is not referring to the New Testament. This should be obvious since, after all, books such as Acts and Revelation had not yet been written. Even what had been written was still beginning the process of circulation in various churches. As Evangelicals, however, we generally want this passage to include the New Testament since it is one of the few verses that seem to directly support our position on the inspiration and full sufficiency of the Bible.

Regardless, St. Paul undoubtedly had the Old Testament in mind as he wrote this passage. It was the Old Testament that was read in the synagogue and was instrumental in the "training in righteousness" of Ss. Paul, Timothy and many other Christians from the Church of the first century. But, more importantly, Ss. Paul and Timothy used the Septuagint (LXX). "

From: http://www.kalvesmaki.com/otcanon.htm 
It's lengthy, but my point is about which text Paul and Timothy used.
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Sun May 27, 2018 - 15:21:06
Quote
No. Paul knew what scriptures Timothy was raised on!
" In his letter to St. Timothy, St. Paul is not referring to the New Testament. This should be obvious since, after all, books such as Acts and Revelation had not yet been written. Even what had been written was still beginning the process of circulation in various churches. As Evangelicals, however, we generally want this passage to include the New Testament since it is one of the few verses that seem to directly support our position on the inspiration and full sufficiency of the Bible.

If I am not wrong, Paul did not grow up in Greek Society.  The language was probably Eastern Aramaic.

Eph. 2:20 And are built upon [educated by]
        the foundation of the apostles and prophets,
       Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph. 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,
       as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
2Pet. 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the WORDS
       which were spoken before by the holy prophets,
       and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
Rev. 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven,
       and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

God breathed or inspired the prophets by The Spirit OF Christ." This Spirit or Mental Disposition revealed by the Prophets define The REST in the Church of Christ both Inclusively and exclusively in all respects including the demand for baptism to enter into the REST provided by Messiah.

Jesus fulfilled all of the PROPHECIES CONCERNING ME and the Apostles were eye--and ear witnesses.  Paul left his PART for OUR MEMORY and outlawed private interpretation or further expounding.

Recorded history is aware that ANY important event was covered by SCRIBES: They had helpers and made copies ready to sell before the crowd dispersed.  Luke got his information for earlier witnesses and eye--witnesses. He also traveled with Paul

Divina Lectio is the women's witchcraft but Divine Lectons were accounts which were later included in the "books" and they were for READING in the churches.

Again the CHURCH OF CHRIST or His School of the Word is completely defined in the prophets. Only the Lord's Supper was added to the synagogue to teach the DEATH of Jesus: if you grasp that then everyone will sit down and be silent as Paul demanded of both male and female.

I know of no evidence that Paul quoted from the Septuagint.  The Order of the books is not that of the Septuagint a version supposedly translated in 70 or so days.  I like the Septuagint because He comes down with a hammer against those who MADE THE LAMBS DUMB before the slaughter with loud INSTRUMENTAL NOISE which was never musical.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/encyclopedias/isbe/luke-the-evangelist.html

Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: lea on Sun May 27, 2018 - 19:32:37
K.S., yes, you know of no evidence that Paul used the Septuagint!

https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/tips/what-bible-did-jesus-use-11638841.html
   
This is the Bible Jesus Used

The Septuagint was the first translation of the Hebrew Bible; and was made in the third century B.C. by Jewish scribes, who were direct descendents of those trained in Ezra's Great Synagogue of Jerusalem. They were complete experts in the text, being very well versed in Hebrew and Greek.

This translation became very popular among Jews in the first two centuries before Christ because many Jews in those days did not understand Hebrew. Their ancestors had left Israel centuries before, and generation after generation gradually lost the ability to read the Scriptures in Hebrew.

Many of the Jews in Jesus' day used the Septuagint as their Bible. Quite naturally, the early Christians also used the Septuagint in their meetings and for personal reading; and many of the New Testament apostles quoted it when they wrote the Gospels and Epistles in Greek. What is most fascinating is that the order of the books in the Septuagint is the same order in our Bibles today, and not like the Hebrew scrolls. So this means that:

Jesus Primarily Used a Translation

Jesus and the Apostles: studied, memorized, used, quoted, and read most often from the Bible of their day, the Septuagint. Since Matthew wrote primarily to convince the Jews that Jesus of Nazareth was indeed their promised Messiah, it follows as a matter of course that his Gospel is saturated with the Hebrew Scriptures. Yet, when Jesus quotes the Old Testament in Matthew, He uses the Hebrew text only 10% of the time, but the Greek LXX translation—90% of the time!

Amazingly, Jesus and Paul used the LXX as their primary Bible. It was just like the Bible each of us holds in our hands, not the original Hebrew Old Testament, but a translation of the Hebrew into Greek. But it was based on exactly the same original and inspired words, and reads just like the Bible we hold in our hands today.
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Sun May 27, 2018 - 21:35:52
There are hints that Jesus quotes from the Septuagint but that is only the Old Testament. The fact that the saved live in a happy state for the same FOREVER that the wicked are TORMENTED forever and ever.  There is no evidence

Erasmus, that priest who spunged off many women and died of syphilis so vile that the doctors only looked at him from the door published the first Greek New Testament from a small number of individual books in an effort to beat another scholar to the money tree. However, he is a great resource to debunk the RELIGION FOR SALE which most inherited from the latter Catholics paid by the state.

Novum Instrumentum omne was the first published New Testament in Greek (1516). It was prepared by Desiderius Erasmus (1469–1536) and printed by Johann Froben (1460–1527) of Basel. Although the first printed Greek New Testament was the Complutensian Polyglot (1514), it was the second to be published (1522).  Erasmus used several Greek manuscripts housed in Basel, but some verses in Revelation he translated from the Latin Vulgate.[1]

The best resources are in Latin.

Non of his Greek manuscripts were earlier than the 12th century.

Daniel 12:2 English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall AWAKE, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12:2 English Standard Version (ESV)
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall AWAKE, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12:2 American Standard Version (ASV)
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall AWAKE, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting [a]contempt.

Daniel 12:2 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
2 Many of those sleeping in the dust of the earth will AWAKEN, some to everlasting life and some to everlasting shame and abhorrence.

there is no example of them experiencing a second death OF THE SPIRIT.

Quote
Definition of death - 1. permanent cessation of life 2. state of no longer being alive 3. destruction of something inanimate- Merriam Webster

Don't believe people who lie and use Websters as their SCHOLARSHIP:

    no longer alive.
    "a dead body"
    synonyms:   passed on/away, expired, departed, gone, no more; More
    late, lost, lamented;
    perished, fallen, slain, slaughtered, killed, murdered;
    lifeless, extinct;
    informal(as) dead as a doornail, six feet under, pushing up daisies;
    formaldeceased;
    euphemisticwith God, asleep
    "my parents are dead"
    antonyms:   alive, living
        (of a part of the body) having lost sensation; numb.
        comparative adjective: deader; superlative adjective: deadest
        synonyms:   numb, numbed, deadened, desensitized, unfeeling; More
        paralyzed, crippled, incapacitated, immobilized, frozen
        "a dead leg"
        having or displaying no emotion, sympathy, or sensitivity.
        "a cold, dead voice"
        synonyms:   emotionless, unemotional, unfeeling, impassive, unresponsive, indifferent, dispassionate, inexpressive, wooden, stony, cold; More
        deadpan, flat;
        blank, vacant
        "she has dead eyes"
        antonyms:   passionate
        no longer current, relevant, or important.
        "pollution had become a dead issue"
        synonyms:   obsolete, extinct, defunct, disused, abandoned, discarded, superseded, vanished, forgotten; More
        archaic, antiquated, ancient;
        literaryof yore
        "a dead language"
        antonyms:   modern, current
        devoid of living things.
        "a dead planet"
        synonyms:   barren, lifeless, bare, desolate, sterile More
        "patches of dead ground"
        extinguished, quashed, stifled;
        finished, over, gone, no more;
        a thing of the past, ancient history
        "his affection for her was dead"
        antonyms:   fertile, lush
        resembling death.
        "a dead faint"
        (of a place or time) characterized by a lack of activity or excitement.
        "Brussels isn't dead after dark, if you know where to look"
        synonyms:   uneventful, uninteresting, unexciting, uninspiring, dull, boring, flat, quiet, sleepy, slow, lackluster, lifeless; More
        informalone-horse, dullsville
        "a dead town"
        antonyms:   lively
        (of money) not financially productive.
        (of sound) without resonance; dull.
        (of a color) not glossy or bright.
        (of a piece of equipment) no longer functioning, especially because of a fault.
        "the phone had gone dead"
        synonyms:   not working, out of order, inoperative, inactive, in disrepair, broken, malfunctioning, defective; More
        informalkaput, conked out, on the blink, on the fritz, bust, busted
        "the phone was dead"
        antonyms:   in working order
        (of an electric circuit or conductor) carrying or transmitting no current.
        "the batteries are dead"
        no longer burning.
        "the fire had been dead for some days"
        (of air or water) not circulating; stagnant.
        (of a glass or bottle) empty or no longer being used.
        synonyms:   barren, lifeless, bare, desolate, sterile
        "patches of dead ground"
        antonyms:   fertile, lush
        (of the ball in a game) out of play.
        (of a playing field, ball, or other surface) lacking springiness or bounce.
    2.
    complete; absolute.
    "we sat in dead silence"
    synonyms:   complete, absolute, total, utter, out-and-out, thorough, unmitigated
    "dead silence"
    antonyms:   partial

adverb
adverb: dead

    1.
    absolutely; completely.
    "you're dead right"
    synonyms:   completely, absolutely, totally, utterly, deadly, perfectly, entirely, quite, thoroughly; More
    definitely, certainly, positively, categorically, unquestionably, undoubtedly, surely;
    in every way, one hundred percent
    "he was dead serious"
        exactly.
        "they arrived dead on time"
        straight; directly.
        "red flares were seen dead ahead"
        synonyms:   directly, exactly, precisely, immediately, right, straight, due, squarely; informalsmack dab
        "flares were seen dead ahead"
        Britishinformal
        very.
        "omelets are dead easy to prepare"

noun
plural noun: the dead

    1.    those who have died.

Rev. 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

1Tim. 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth. [/size]
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: BTR on Mon May 28, 2018 - 06:29:26
“Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

“Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.
  -Dan.12:1-3 NASB


There are a few things I have noticed looking these passages over last night and this morning. First, Michael?, bet the JWs latch onto that one. 
"everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued." Now these are alive at this time.
But notice; "many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life," Those who awake are the saved who have fallen asleep, "sleep" is only used in this way for the saved or born again. But "the others" to discrace and everlasting contempt."  It does not say that the others are sleeping nor awaken. 

If it is saying two groups awake that were sleeping then the "others" would be apostate.


Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: BTR on Mon May 28, 2018 - 07:06:34
Quote; "Rev. 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

1Tim. 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth."


This reminded me of this,
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

“For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
“and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

“Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice

“and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
-Jhn. 5:24-29


“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already,
because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
Jhn. 3:17-19
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: lea on Mon May 28, 2018 - 09:31:12
BTR,
I always wondered about this passage where "those who have done good, to everlasting life........"(emph. mine)

Are these the "good" before Jesus arrived in the 1st century? Because, it seems that the qualification for everlasting life was doing good- whereas we are taught that today being "good" is not enough.
We must believe and have faith in the Son before death
“Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
“and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

“Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice

“and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. -Jhn. 5:24-29

Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: BTR on Mon May 28, 2018 - 10:48:23
BTR,
I always wondered about this passage where "those who have done good, to everlasting life........"(emph. mine)

Are these the "good" before Jesus arrived in the 1st century? Because, it seems that the qualification for everlasting life was doing good- whereas we are taught that today being "good" is not enough.
We must believe and have faith in the Son before death
“Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
“and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

“Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice

“and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. -Jhn. 5:24-29

Its not about doing good on our own, but being good from a new heart through Christ by the power of God. Remember the sheep and goats passage, the sheep didnt even know when they did the deeds that were good, in contrast to the goats who proclaimed they did do them. I think choosing that which is good brings forth good.

She had a sister called Mary, who was seated at the Lord’s feet, listening to His word.

But Martha was distracted with all her preparations; and she came up to Him and said, “Lord, do You not care that my sister has left me to do all the serving alone? Then tell her to help me.”
But the Lord answered and said to her, “Martha, Martha, you are worried and bothered about so many things;

but only one thing is necessary, for Mary has chosen the good part, which shall not be taken away from her.”
  -Lk.10:39-42


“I will fetch my knowledge from afar,
And I will ascribe righteousness to my Maker.
  -Job.36:3

John 15:3-5
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Sat Jun 02, 2018 - 15:35:48
DESTRUCTION or PERDITION does not mean DEATH.

Matt. 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way,
            that leadeth to DESTRUCTION, and many there be which go in thereat:
Matt. 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way,
        which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

g684.   apoleia, ap-o´-li-a; from a presumed derivative of 622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): — damnable(-nation), destruction, die, PERDITION, x perish, pernicious ways, waste.

g622 can mean literal or physical death:

g622. apollumi, ap-ol´-loo-mee; from 575 and the base of 3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: — destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Not:
3639.   olethros, ol´-eth-ros; from a primary o¡llumi ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. death, punishment: — destruction.

Destruction does not mean death:
g2288. qthanatos, than´-at-os; from 2348; (properly, an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): — x deadly, (be...) death.

Rom. 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his WRATH, and to make his power known,
        endured with much longsuffering the vessels of WRATH fitted to DESTRUCTION:
2Pet. 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood,
        which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest,
        as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.


Scripture wresters are without the Spirit but they still take up collections:

1Tim. 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Tim. 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare,
        and into many foolish and hurtful lusts,
        which DROWN men in destruction and perdition.
1Tim. 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after,
        they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
1Tim. 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

2Th. 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th. 1:8 In flaming fire taking VENGEANCE on them that know not God,
        and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th. 1:9 Who shall be PUNISHED with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION
        FROM the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Destruction does not mean death.

22Pet. 2:3  And through covetousness shall they
        with feigned words make merchandise of you:
        whose judgment now of a long time LINGERETH not,
        and their DAMNATION slumbereth not. [Krino Avenge]
2Pet. 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned,
        but cast them down to HELL,
        and delivered them into chains of darkness,
        to be RESERVED unto judgment;
2Pet. 2:5 And spared not the old world,
        but saved Noah the eighth person,
        a preacher of righteousness,
        bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

THESE WERE NOT DEAD
1Pet. 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust,
        that he might bring us to God,
        being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pet. 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pet. 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient,
        when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
        while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is,
        eight souls were saved by water.

Matt. 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers,
        how can ye escape the DAMNATION of hell?
Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness,
       but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Mark 12:40 Which devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayers [hymns]:
       these shall receive GREATER damnation.

John 5:29 And shall come forth;
          they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
          and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

A CHRISTIAN OR DISCIPLE DOES NOT PASS JUDGMENT ON THE WORD OF GOD.  A Disciple lets the WORD of God lay powerfully on the page and let God be the JUDGE.


Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Sun Jun 03, 2018 - 14:47:21
FURTHER STUDY ON AN IMMORTALITY PASSAGE:

Rom. 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things,
        and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Rom. 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering;
        not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

WHEN JUDGMENT HAPPENS:
Rom. 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart
        treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath
        and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rom. 2:6 Who will render to every man ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS
Rom. 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing
        seek for glory and honour and immortality (figurative genuiness, sincerity], eternal life:

ETERNAL LIFE
vīta   a pleasant life ON THE OTHER HAND: malae taedia vitae,” Ov. P. 1, 9, 31.—

mălus  vitae  Punishment; hurt, harm, severity, injury, plague, mischief, torment: “I would rather you should be unfortunate than effeminate,

Rom. 2:8 But unto them that are CONTINTIOUS, and do not obey the truth,
        but obey unrighteousness, INDIGNATION and WRATH,

THE CONTINTIOUS
g2052.   eritheia, er-ith-i´-ah; perhaps as the same as 2042; properly, intrigue, i.e. (by implication) faction: — contention(-ious), strife.
g2042. erethizo, er-eth-id´-zo; from a presumed prolonged form of 2054; to stimulate (especially to anger): — provoke.
g2054. eris, er´-is; of uncertain affinity; a quarrel, i.e. (by implication) wrangling: — contention, debate, strife, variance.

THEIR REWARD IS INDIGNATION
g2372.   thumos, thoo-mos´; from 2380; passion (as if breathing hard): — fierceness, indignation, wrath. Compare 5590.

    g5590.psuche, psoo-khay´; from 5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; 

Rom. 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil,
        of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

THEIR REWARD WRATH
Gg3709.  orge, or-gay´; from 3713; properly, desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by analogy), violent passion (ire, or (justifiable) abhorrence); by implication punishment: — anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.

THEIR REWARD TRIBULATION:
g2347.  thlipsis, thlip´-sis; from 2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): — afflicted(-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

2Th. 1:6 Seeing it is a RIGHTEOUS thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you

Rev. 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

THEIR REWARD ANGUISH
4730.   stenochoria, sten-okh-o-ree´-ah; from a compound of 4728 and 5561; narrowness of room, i.e. (figuratively) calamity: — anguish, distress.

Rom. 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace,
       to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom. 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

THERE IS NO END INDICATED
Rev. 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

IT WOULD BE CONTENTIOUS TO ARGUE AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD WHO WILL BE RIGHTEOUS IF HE PUNISHES HIS MORTAL ENEMIES.
Title: Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
Post by: Kenneth Sublett on Mon Jun 04, 2018 - 18:22:57
FALSEHOOD: GOD CREATED ALL OF HIS CHILDREN AND HE COULD NEVER PUNISH THEM. FALSE!

THERE ARE AT LEAST TWO RACES ON IN THE WORLD:

Those not OF This World as Jesus was not OF this world. God's Sons, like Jesus will SPEAK THE WORD without changing or judging it and they will be HATED and persecuted.

Those OF this world like Cain who was OF that wicked one.

At least TWO major promoters of ANTI-HELL also deny how one is marked or SEALED as a son of God as opposed to the SONS OF THE DEVIL.  Angels of Light will always be in pulpits.

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the SON OF MAN
         then shall ye know that I am he,
        and that I do nothing of myself;
        but as my Father hath taught me, I SPEAK these things.
John 8:38  I SPEAK that which I have seen with my Father:
        and ye DO that which ye have seen with your father.
John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father.
Jesus saith unto them,
        If ye were Abraham’s children,
        ye would do the works of Abraham
.
John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth,
        which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of YOUR FATHER.

DO is to FABRICATE such as write a sermon, write a song, sing a song, sell your product and claim that A SPIRIT. Jesus said that His kingdom does not COME with OBSERVATION which means a fabricated religious observation claiming to do something FOR God.

John 8:44 Ye are OF YOUR father the devil,
        and the lusts of your father ye will do.
        He was a murderer from the beginning,
        and abode not in the truth,
        because there is no truth in him.
When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own:
        for he is a liar, and the father of it.

John 8:47 He that is OF God heareth God’s WORDS:
        ye therefore hear them not, because ye are NOT OF GOD
John 8:48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him,
        Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
John 8:49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil;
        but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.