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Endless Torture [Part II]
« on: Sun May 27, 2018 - 11:31:21 »
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
_______________________________
E n d l e s s  T o r t u r e
[PART II]

      This controversial issue has prompted a host of responses, both positive and negative. One of my readers responded to my sentiments by referring me to the words of our Lord in Matthew 25:46. The verse reads,  “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
 
    My position, of course, is that the ungodly will experience a final, ceaseless existence. He inquired, “Why doesn’t the Bible say, ‘And the wicked will cease to exist, while the righteous will inherit eternal life?’ ”
 
    Well, it actually does, but not in those exact words. It is interesting that “destruction” and “perish” are never applied to the righteous. Their eternity will be endless life and eternal bliss. But not so with the wicked. They will suffer eternal destruction, or, as Jesus puts it in John 3:16, they will perish—that is, cease to exist.
 
    Such is the meaning of “perish.” The destruction of the ungodly will be eternal in that it will never be reversed or altered. Their eternal punishment will be the absence of life, away from the glory of God and the exquisite paradise He has prepared for the righteous.
 
    To be a little repetitious just here, the wicked will perish—be extinguished. The results (extinction) will be eternal, never-ending. Paul says the wages of sin [for the ungodly] is death—eternal death (Rom. 6:23). John’s Book of Revelation speaks of the ungodly undergoing a “second death” (2:11, 20:6, 20:14, and 21:8). The term ”second death” is not used elsewhere in scripture.
 
    The writings in Revelation are highly symbolic, but if we take ”second death” at face value, or even symbolically, the “second death” of the ungodly will be eternal punishment—extinction. Let it be repeated again that if the ungodly are kept alive endlessly while being tormented, they have not died, the opposite of what Paul and the Lord say.
 
    But what about Mark 9:43-44, “where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched”? Our Lord used the literal “fire” of the garbage dump [Gehenna], just outside of Jerusalem, to bolster His point on the awfulness of being rejected in the end. Although that fire burned most of the time, yet it was only temporary.
 
    The  “worm,” the “fire,” and “not quenched” are mere symbols, and each typifies the horrific fate of the ungodly prior to their being extinguished forever. The eternal extinction of the wicked will not be quenched—stamped out or smothered. It will be endless! [Incidentally, a few versions do not carry verse 44, “where the worm does not die.”]
 
    A number of commentators, including the late Adam Clarke, note that Mark 9:44 is the last verse in Isaiah. They all say the statement “where the worm does not die” is a figurative expression, which was common among the Jewish people. Apparently, it was still a figurative utterance in Jesus’ time as well.
 
    Regardless of the meaning of Mark 9:43-44, one thing seems to be quite convincing: A future immortality is not appropriated to the ungodly, but to believers only. I’ll have more to say about “immortality” as it relates to the ungodly in our finale sector [Part III].
_______
 
    AIDS WORLDWIDE— There are at least 40 million cases of HIV and AIDS carriers worldwide as of 2016. These are the known cases. We may safely triple that number when we contemplate the unknown cases. It might interest you to know that AIDS was originally called Gay Related Immuno-deficiency Disease, or GRID. Homosexual lobbyists and the liberal press managed to get it changed to AIDS, which lifted some of the blame off the shoulders of homosexuals. For more on homosexuality, visit my Website under www.mindspring.com/~renewal/Homo.html .
_______
 
    QUOTES— Harry S. Truman (1945), while campaigning for President, “I didn’t give them hell, I told them the truth and they thought it was hell.”
 
    Eleanor Roosevelt, wife of President D. Roosevelt (1940s), “A great mind discusses ideas; an average mind discusses events; a poor mind discusses others.”
_______
 
    ANOTHER EXCERPT— “The apostle Peter, who is falsely alleged to be the first Pope or ‘Bishop of Rome,’ never once placed himself on a par with God—as Rome’s Popes do. Instead, he described himself as a mere man.  When Cornelius, a Gentile, ‘fell down at his [Peter’s] feet and worshipped him,’ Peter lifted him up and rebuked him. “Stand up! I, too, am a man,” he told Cornelius (Acts 10:25-26). The Catholic Living Bible says, “Stand up! I’m not a god!”—Page 22, “The Son of Perdition.”
 
    For one or more free copies of this book, postage included, send me your Postal Address.—Buff.
 
« Last Edit: Sun May 27, 2018 - 11:46:44 by Reformer »

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Endless Torture [Part II]
« on: Sun May 27, 2018 - 11:31:21 »

Offline RB

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Re: Endless Torture [Part II]
« Reply #1 on: Sun May 27, 2018 - 13:15:40 »
Amen, and I fully agree. I have some points that I believe strongly proves that the wicked shall perish in the lake of fire which IS the second death~ but time will not allow me at the moment to post these, but will ASAP. I'm also convinced that the lake of fire will be THIS PRESENT EARTH when it along with the wicked shall pass AWAY with a great noise and fervent heat, after the judgment at the great white throne judgment seat.

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Re: Endless Torture [Part II]
« Reply #1 on: Sun May 27, 2018 - 13:15:40 »

Offline Choir Loft

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Re: Endless Torture [Part II]
« Reply #2 on: Sun May 27, 2018 - 14:30:51 »
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death. - Rev 2:11

The concept of hell is a pagan myth adopted by the Roman Catholic church to retain its members by reason of fear and by the Protestant church to gain them for the same reason.  The Bible doesn't indicate the destiny of an unregenerate sinner is eternal torture.  Scripture warns of the Second Death, which isn't the same thing.

Dante Alighieri's book THE DIVINE COMEDY is the primary source for text on hell and for its interesting illustrations at the beginning of each chapter.  Published in the middle ages as a work of political satire its very much like the currently popular TV show Saturday Night Live.  As SNL satirizes political figures, Dante similarly names political figures who were deserving of eternal punishment in the ghastly spiritual dungeon he invented.  The Christian community misinterpreted Dante's political sarcasm and adopted it as a legitimate explanation of the after life - forever corrupting the Biblical message about damnation and eternal reward.

The Old Testament or Tanakh speaks of a place where the dead sleep called sheol .  Sheol isn't a complicated concept and it isn't a judgment of any sort.  Sheol was simply the place where the dead slept.  King David bemoaned sheol because he wouldn't be able to praise God there.  The pagan idea of hades is different.   Greek and Roman myths confused the Judeo-Christian doctrines and were adopted by the Roman Catholic church along with Dante's book to change Biblical intent.  Translations of original Hebrew and Greek scripture were affected and in the modern age we often confuse sheol with hades.   Instead the Bible teaches an entirely different concept.  It speaks of the Second Death.

Definition of eternity - 1. infinite or unending time 2. endless life after death
Definition of death - 1. permanent cessation of life 2. state of no longer being alive 3. destruction of something inanimate

- Merriam Webster

But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear the One who has authority, after the killing, to cast into Gehenna. Yes, I say to you, fear Him. - Jesus as quoted by Luke 12:5

Gehenna can be translated several ways; as hell, as the lake of fire or as the fire pit for garbage outside the city gates of Jerusalem.  It's a reference to a place where refuse is permanently destroyed.

When God speaks of the Second Death in the pages of Holy Writ He isn't talking about something that continues indefinitely.   He is talking about a final and total end.   In this post I am discussing the destiny of unregenerate souls - the unsaved.  They are permanently and completely destroyed - not eternally punished.  The notion of eternal punishment is an oxy-moron especially when considering Biblical references to the Second Death.   Death is the end of life.  Eternity continues life.   The two are diametrically opposed to one another.  The concept of eternal death and/or suffering is logically impossible as well as ideologically inconsistent.  Death is a permanent end whereas eternity is a continuation.  There is no such thing as eternal death.   

The Lake of Fire as described in the Bible burns eternally, but that which is cast into it is extinguished permanently.   

There's a difference between permanent death and eternal fire.   Consider that everyone in a cemetery is permanently dead.   The bodies there are permanently devoid of life.  There is no longer any apprehension of the things of life in them and there is no evidence they ever will again.  The permanence of death is irrevocable and unchangeable.  Therein lies the difference between permanent death and eternal life.   When the Bible speaks of a Second Death its talking about something permanent - not something eternal. 

Toss a log into a fireplace.  The fire there will consume the log and continue burning.   The fire may continue to burn, but the log is permanently consumed.   The same is true of the Second Death.  The Lake of Fire is the method of destruction while the Second Death describes the effect it has upon that which is cast into it.  A fire may burn eternally, but its fuel is extinguished permanently. 

Souls that refuse the saving grace of God in the person of Jesus Christ will be permanently extinguished in the eternal flames of the Lake of Fire.   They do not suffer eternally, but are consumed permanently.   There's a big difference here that the church has missed because it chose to adopt pagan myths instead of Biblical truth.   

God is not the keeper of a divine torture chamber.   

God has said the wages of sin is death.....not eternal torture.

Consider the nature of a loving God. 

Would God really enjoy torturing souls endlessly or would He mercifully put them out of the misery sin has caused them? 

Would God treat the unrepentant diseased soul of a sinner differently than any of us would treat a cancerous pet?

He who has an ear let him hear what the spirit says to the churches.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...     
« Last Edit: Sun May 27, 2018 - 15:18:25 by Choir Loft »

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Re: Endless Torture [Part II]
« Reply #2 on: Sun May 27, 2018 - 14:30:51 »

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Re: Endless Torture [Part II]
« Reply #3 on: Sun May 27, 2018 - 20:19:03 »
RB:

I'll look forward to your additional comments.

Blessings,

Buff

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Re: Endless Torture [Part II]
« Reply #3 on: Sun May 27, 2018 - 20:19:03 »
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Re: Endless Torture [Part II]
« Reply #4 on: Sun May 27, 2018 - 20:27:31 »

Choir Loft:

   First, I want to thank you for your insightful input. Secondly, I both agree and disagree with sections of your post. But that's okay, for not one of us agrees fully with anyone else on earth. Diversity can be a good tool for spiritual growth.

   Please stay tuned for PART III. I think much of it will harmonize with a few matters you covered above.

Blessings,

Buff

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Re: Endless Torture [Part II]
« Reply #4 on: Sun May 27, 2018 - 20:27:31 »



Offline Norton

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Re: Endless Torture [Part II]
« Reply #5 on: Mon May 28, 2018 - 22:12:58 »
I always thought there was something wrong with the thought that Jesus brought us peace on earth, good will toward men, and endless torment.

It seems that the early church writers interpreted Jesus' words about hell in light of the Greek Philosophy idea that all men had an immortal soul. They reasoned that if all men had an immortal soul, then to perish, be destroyed, or die in hell, meant to suffer for ever and ever in hell, since no soul can really die or perish or be destroyed. These interpretations have been handed down to us as undeniable essential doctrine by most churches, whether Catholic or Protestant.

Thanks for your posts on this subject, Reformer

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Re: Endless Torture [Part II]
« Reply #5 on: Mon May 28, 2018 - 22:12:58 »

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Re: Endless Torture [Part II]
« Reply #6 on: Mon May 28, 2018 - 23:48:26 »
Norton:

   I appreciate your comments. You’ve touched on one of the core problems of “endless torture,” namely,  believing all men have “immortal souls” [spirits]. “It ain’t true,” as you noted.

   I’ll have more to say about this phase of it in Part III.

Buff

Offline TheMatrixHasU71

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Re: Endless Torture [Part II]
« Reply #7 on: Tue May 29, 2018 - 09:05:58 »
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
_______________________________
E n d l e s s  T o r t u r e
[PART II]

      This controversial issue has prompted a host of responses, both positive and negative. One of my readers responded to my sentiments by referring me to the words of our Lord in Matthew 25:46. The verse reads,  “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
 
    My position, of course, is that the ungodly will experience a final, ceaseless existence. He inquired, “Why doesn’t the Bible say, ‘And the wicked will cease to exist, while the righteous will inherit eternal life?’ ”
 
    Well, it actually does, but not in those exact words. It is interesting that “destruction” and “perish” are never applied to the righteous. Their eternity will be endless life and eternal bliss. But not so with the wicked. They will suffer eternal destruction, or, as Jesus puts it in John 3:16, they will perish—that is, cease to exist.
 
    Such is the meaning of “perish.” The destruction of the ungodly will be eternal in that it will never be reversed or altered. Their eternal punishment will be the absence of life, away from the glory of God and the exquisite paradise He has prepared for the righteous.
 
    To be a little repetitious just here, the wicked will perish—be extinguished. The results (extinction) will be eternal, never-ending. Paul says the wages of sin [for the ungodly] is death—eternal death (Rom. 6:23). John’s Book of Revelation speaks of the ungodly undergoing a “second death” (2:11, 20:6, 20:14, and 21:8). The term ”second death” is not used elsewhere in scripture.
 
    The writings in Revelation are highly symbolic, but if we take ”second death” at face value, or even symbolically, the “second death” of the ungodly will be eternal punishment—extinction. Let it be repeated again that if the ungodly are kept alive endlessly while being tormented, they have not died, the opposite of what Paul and the Lord say.
 
    But what about Mark 9:43-44, “where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched”? Our Lord used the literal “fire” of the garbage dump [Gehenna], just outside of Jerusalem, to bolster His point on the awfulness of being rejected in the end. Although that fire burned most of the time, yet it was only temporary.
 
    The  “worm,” the “fire,” and “not quenched” are mere symbols, and each typifies the horrific fate of the ungodly prior to their being extinguished forever. The eternal extinction of the wicked will not be quenched—stamped out or smothered. It will be endless! [Incidentally, a few versions do not carry verse 44, “where the worm does not die.”]
 
    A number of commentators, including the late Adam Clarke, note that Mark 9:44 is the last verse in Isaiah. They all say the statement “where the worm does not die” is a figurative expression, which was common among the Jewish people. Apparently, it was still a figurative utterance in Jesus’ time as well.
 
    Regardless of the meaning of Mark 9:43-44, one thing seems to be quite convincing: A future immortality is not appropriated to the ungodly, but to believers only. I’ll have more to say about “immortality” as it relates to the ungodly in our finale sector [Part III].
_______
 
    AIDS WORLDWIDE— There are at least 40 million cases of HIV and AIDS carriers worldwide as of 2016. These are the known cases. We may safely triple that number when we contemplate the unknown cases. It might interest you to know that AIDS was originally called Gay Related Immuno-deficiency Disease, or GRID. Homosexual lobbyists and the liberal press managed to get it changed to AIDS, which lifted some of the blame off the shoulders of homosexuals. For more on homosexuality, visit my Website under www.mindspring.com/~renewal/Homo.html .
_______
 
    QUOTES— Harry S. Truman (1945), while campaigning for President, “I didn’t give them hell, I told them the truth and they thought it was hell.”
 
    Eleanor Roosevelt, wife of President D. Roosevelt (1940s), “A great mind discusses ideas; an average mind discusses events; a poor mind discusses others.”
_______
 
    ANOTHER EXCERPT— “The apostle Peter, who is falsely alleged to be the first Pope or ‘Bishop of Rome,’ never once placed himself on a par with God—as Rome’s Popes do. Instead, he described himself as a mere man.  When Cornelius, a Gentile, ‘fell down at his [Peter’s] feet and worshipped him,’ Peter lifted him up and rebuked him. “Stand up! I, too, am a man,” he told Cornelius (Acts 10:25-26). The Catholic Living Bible says, “Stand up! I’m not a god!”—Page 22, “The Son of Perdition.”
 
    For one or more free copies of this book, postage included, send me your Postal Address.—Buff.



I am sorry sir but your position that the ungodly merely cease to exist without enduring eternal torment is completely false.

Jesus' reference to Geh hinnom, the burning garbage dump outside the city which was meant to be kept burning forever was an allusion to the eternal hell where the fire is never quenched. The fact that it is not burning now is of no consequence. Remember that Jesus used visual imagery to describe the invisible so that people can understand his teachings better. "Where the worm does not die" is not meant to be figurative but literal.
Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus also portrays an eternal suffering, where the body dies but the eternal soul is suffering in hell.


You see death here is what is not necessarily meant to be taken literally, because DEATH in terms of the ungodly means ETERNAL SEPARATION FROM GOD. Because it means CAST OUT
ekthetos: cast out, i.e. exposed (to perish)[/b][/font][/color]

Original Word: ἔκθετος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: ekthetos
Phonetic Spelling: (ek'-thet-os)
Short Definition: cast out, exposed
Definition: cast out, exposed (to the elements), abandoned.


King James 2000 Bible
And the smoke of their torment ascends up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receives the mark of his name.


You cant be tormented if you are just wiped totally out of existence.[/size]






« Last Edit: Tue May 29, 2018 - 09:10:22 by TheMatrixHasU71 »

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Re: Endless Torture [Part II]
« Reply #8 on: Tue May 29, 2018 - 14:14:52 »
TheMatrixHasU71:

   Your response has been read and evaluated. Apparently, you are a new member of GraceCentered. If yes, "Welcome Aboard."

   If you have not examined Part I of this series, please go there. Part III will be forthcoming [next Sunday]. You might wish to reserve further comments until you examine it.

   In the meantime, allow me to toss a question in your direction. Feel free to answer at your convenience.

   If you had the supernatural power, as God has, to literally create a species likened unto the human species, and some of them rebelled and rejected their creator [in this case, you], could you—would you—cast them into a state of endless, conscious torment [torture] and still claim to be a merciful, compassionate, loving creator?

Cheers in Jesus,

Buff
« Last Edit: Tue May 29, 2018 - 15:43:06 by Reformer »

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Re: Endless Torture [Part II]
« Reply #8 on: Tue May 29, 2018 - 14:14:52 »

Offline TheMatrixHasU71

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Re: Endless Torture [Part II]
« Reply #9 on: Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 09:08:14 »
TheMatrixHasU71:

   Your response has been read and evaluated. Apparently, you are a new member of GraceCentered. If yes, "Welcome Aboard."

   If you have not examined Part I of this series, please go there. Part III will be forthcoming [next Sunday]. You might wish to reserve further comments until you examine it.

   In the meantime, allow me to toss a question in your direction. Feel free to answer at your convenience.

   If you had the supernatural power, as God has, to literally create a species likened unto the human species, and some of them rebelled and rejected their creator [in this case, you], could you—would you—cast them into a state of endless, conscious torment [torture] and still claim to be a merciful, compassionate, loving creator?

Cheers in Jesus,

Buff

I do not wish to be disrespectful but I do not wish to read what I know to be untrue.

And it is not God's wish that anyone suffer. People put themselves in that position. They willingly choose hell over God so God leaves them too their choice

Luke 16:28   | View whole chapter   | See verse in context
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Revelation 14:11   | View whole chapter   | See verse in context
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Matthew 25:46   | View whole chapter   | See verse in context
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Matthew 13:42   | View whole chapter   | See verse in context
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


There can be no 'everlasting punishment' or 'smoke of their torment rising forever' or 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' if people are just annihilated. You have been lied to by whomever taught you annihilationism

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Re: Endless Torture [Part II]
« Reply #10 on: Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 12:33:19 »

TheMatrixHasU71:

   If you will re-evaluate what I have thus far posted in PART I & PART II, you will see that I have already covered your main thrusts. Again, I suggest you go back and start reading with PART I, assuming you have not digested it.

    You remarked, “I do not wish to be disrespectful but I do not wish to read what I know to be untrue.”

    If you follow this principle in all journalistic areas, you will be reading only about a third of what is written, generally speaking. In fact, you will have isolated yourself from world events, regardless of the nature and contents of those events.

   By the way, I'd like you to give me a more specific answer to the question I posed a few days ago, namely:

   "If you had the supernatural power, as God has, to literally create a species likened unto the human species, and some of them rebelled and rejected their creator [in this case, you], could you—would you—cast them into a state of endless, conscious torment [torture] and still claim to be a merciful, compassionate, loving creator?"

   Stretch your mind a bit by crawling out of the box. Nonetheless, I appreciate your part in this dialogue. For a broader spectrum, look for PART III Sunday

Buff

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Re: Endless Torture [Part II]
« Reply #11 on: Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 18:59:22 »
Buff-----

It's strange how we can accept that a 25 year old person who receives Christ will live in Heaven forever and ever.  But we cannot accept that a 25 year old person
could die and be in torment forever and ever.  I've often thought about that myself--a person lives for 25 years or so and dies without Christ.  Now they go to hell
FOREVER? WHAT??  It sounds so terribly unfair doesn't it?  Yet at the same time we can accept someone living a mere 25 years on earth and dying going to Heaven FOREVER.

You ask the question about God below. But you have to think Buff, there was something so critical and horrible about the destiny of man that Jesus Christ had to come and die
a terribly horrible death, and be crucified for our sins. Did he come because we would cease to exist if he didn't---or was there a horrible fate awaiting them if He chose not to die
for them?  Was the reason that Jesus came because God IS a merciful, compassionate and loving Creator?\

We must remember that we are not infinite. Nor do we have the mind of the eternal God.  There are MANY things we do not know or understand.  To use human logic to explain away
endless torment, and in that way state that God is not merciful or compassionate if there IS an infinite Hell is not wise.  I do not understand Hell----but I do believe it exists and ETERNALLY for those who reject Christ.

You do well to read Revelation 20.  In that chapter it says that the Beast and the False Prophet are thrown ALIVE into the lake of Fire.  The Devil is then chained and imprisoned for 1000 years. At the end of the 1000 years He is set free and He goes directly back to doing evil again and is eventually condemned.  Read closely and you will see that the Devil is thrown into the same Lake where the Beast and the False Prophet ARE.  Yes---- after a thousand years they are STILL there----they didn't disappear and they weren't annihilated.  They are in the Lake of Fire ALIVE after 1000 years.  Then at the very end ANYONE not written in the Book of Life is also thrown into the Lake of Fire.  These verses show us that the Lake of Fire is not for annihilation---it is for torment.  It is hard to grasp or understand------but it is very true.

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Re: Endless Torture [Part II]
« Reply #12 on: Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 23:11:14 »

fish153:

   Your statement is interesting. “It’s strange how we can accept that a 25 year old person who receives Christ will live in Heaven forever and ever. But we cannot accept that a 25 year old person could die and be in torment forever and ever.”

   Your position is that a believer will consciously live in heaven endlessly. On the other hand, you believe the ungodly or unbeliever will consciously live in a state of endless torment [torture].

   Both will be alive throughout eternity, according to your conception, but under dissimilar circumstances. And this will be the core of PART III in Sunday’s column. Please do give it your attention.

Buff

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Re: Endless Torture [Part II]
« Reply #13 on: Sat Jun 02, 2018 - 04:47:53 »
These verses show us that the Lake of Fire is not for annihilation---it is for torment. .
Brother, they do not. The lake of fire IS the SECOND death~it IS perishing, per both Jesus (See John 3:16) and Peter ~2nd Peter 3:8-12.....My brother, please consider not my words, but Peter's:
Quote from: Peter
2nd Peter 3:8-12~"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"
Fish, when Peter first mentioned that God is not willing that any (his elect who are the USWARD) should perish, he EXPLAINS in what sense he was speaking about in his VERY NEXT few words, which we quoted above for your consideration. Peter clearly said that THIS heaven and earth that we NOW see SHALL  shall pass AWAY and ALL elements shall melt with ferment heat, and the EARTH ALSO and works that are therein shall be burned up....seeing then ALL THINGS shall be dissolved this should provoke us the importance of us to live in all manner of conversation and godliness.

If I compare these words with John in Revelation twenty, then to me it is clear that lake of fire will be WHEN these heavens and earth we NOW SEE shall pass aways after the great white throne judgment and ALL THINGS of the former life including the wicked SHALL ALL BE BURNED UP and DISSLOVED...in other words PERISH just as Jesus said in John 3:16.

Brother, you give me a sense where I can understanding perishing to mean any other sense than how I and everyone else understands its meaning. I will gladly accept another sense IF supported by God's word, if not then I MUST go with its COMMON meaning, which is:" to suffer complete ruin or destruction"....
Quote from:  fish153 Yesterday at 18:59:22
It is hard to grasp or understand
Not really, what IS hard is to go against what we have heard from the pulpits around the world and what has brainwashed so many people and once it does, THAT IS SO HARD to ESCAPE from that deception and to be able to receive scripture truths. My friend, I was taught what you believe for many years over and JUST ASSUME it was correct without even allowing myself to receive God's testimony, and block out man's vain ideas about such things.

I will post some points for you and others to refute~BUT MORE SO for your spiritual benefit of receiving God's testimony over man's. Until then, may God who is gracious above all be so to all true seekers of his truths, and we know he will for he has graciousness without limits, and truly wants to share it with those who love him above man's opinions.   
« Last Edit: Sat Jun 02, 2018 - 05:02:29 by RB »

Offline TheMatrixHasU71

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Re: Endless Torture [Part II]
« Reply #14 on: Sat Jun 02, 2018 - 09:06:42 »
TheMatrixHasU71:

   If you will re-evaluate what I have thus far posted in PART I & PART II, you will see that I have already covered your main thrusts. Again, I suggest you go back and start reading with PART I, assuming you have not digested it.

You havent covered my main thrusts because you are in error here


    You remarked, “I do not wish to be disrespectful but I do not wish to read what I know to be untrue.”

    If you follow this principle in all journalistic areas, you will be reading only about a third of what is written, generally speaking. In fact, you will have isolated yourself from world events, regardless of the nature and contents of those events.

   By the way, I'd like you to give me a more specific answer to the question I posed a few days ago, namely:

   "If you had the supernatural power, as God has, to literally create a species likened unto the human species, and some of them rebelled and rejected their creator [in this case, you], could you—would you—cast them into a state of endless, conscious torment [torture] and still claim to be a merciful, compassionate, loving creator?"

I already answered it by my post that God doesnt want this but people put themselves there through their rejection of God. And I should have also added then why does the lake of fire even exist? Hmm? And why doesnt God extend the same compassion to His fallen angels?

Because your theory is false. You have been lied to.

If you mean by crawling out of the box, get your head out of the bible, sorry I wont do it. I believe in what the bible says, that it does speak of endless torment, weeping and gnashing of teeth, all of which cannot exist in annihilationism, you need to get out of the Matrix cuz your soul is in serious danger if you dont. And you will lead other souls down the same path to eternal damnation as well.

Matthew 25:41   
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


Revelation 20:10   | View whole chapter   | See verse in context
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Explain that one....especially since all who reject the truth are cast into the same lake of fire
Revelation 19:20   | View whole chapter   | See verse in context
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


CAST.....ALIVE.....now there is a good one


   Stretch your mind a bit by crawling out of the box. Nonetheless, I appreciate your part in this dialogue. For a broader spectrum, look for PART III Sunday

Buff
« Last Edit: Sat Jun 02, 2018 - 09:09:52 by TheMatrixHasU71 »

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Re: Endless Torture [Part II]
« Reply #15 on: Sat Jun 02, 2018 - 14:00:11 »
TheMatrixHasU71:

   BUFF’S QUESTION"If you had the supernatural power, as God has, to literally create a species likened unto the human species, and some of them rebelled and rejected their creator [in this case, you], could you—would you—cast them into a state of endless, conscious torment [torture] and still claim to be a merciful, compassionate, loving creator?"

   TheMatrixHasU71’s RESPONSE“I already answered it by my post that God doesn’t want this but people put themselves there through their rejection of God. And I should have also added then why does the lake of fire even exist? Hmm? And why doesn’t God extend the same compassion to His fallen angels?”

   There exists no disagreement between us relative to the ungodly being responsible for their own fate. I’ll clarify what you seen to be missing in the question I posed.

   Let’s examine this from a terrestrial standpoint. If you were to establish certain rules and guidelines for your children to adhere to [as God has for His children], and also include a form of agonizing punishment or torment for the remainder of their lives should they rebel and reject you, would you—could you—subject them to endless, agonizing torment without somewhere along the line demonstrating your mercy and love and terminating the torment?

   If you truly loved your creation [children] and mercy and compassion were your traits, you would surely bring an end to the cruel and unrelenting chastisement your offspring would be experiencing.

   Case at Hand: Our love and mercy does not even compare to the love and mercy our Lord possesses. We cannot even begin to decipher the depth of God’s love and mercy for those He has created—both the righteous and unrighteous. He does not desire that any be lost.

   If you will do a close study of the biblical terms “destruction” and “perish” as they relate to the ungodly, and that includes your fallen angels, I think you will reconsider your position. Destruction faces the ungodly. As I noted in PART I of this series:

   “I’m inclined to believe the 'fire and brimstone' the ungodly will suffer prior to annihilation will manifest itself when they look upon the glory of that eternal, hallowed and stately 'palace' in heaven, with all of its exquisite splendor, and realize what they have foregone because of their rejection of God. That, I think, will be their ‘fire and brimstone,’ followed by eternal destruction or annihilation. The results of their suffering and annihilation will be forever.” 

   ON “DESTRUCTION”— Jesus, Matt. 7:13; Jesus, Luke 17:12; Paul, Rom. 9:22; Paul, Gal. 6:8; Paul, Phil. 3:19; Paul, I Thess. 5:3; Paul, 2 Thess. 1:9; 2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:3; 2 Peter 3:7; 2 Peter 3:16.

   In closing my comments until PART III tomorrow, I beg you to define the term “destruction.” We either take it at face value or we “spiritualize” it until it loses it’s meaning. To “destruct” is to destroy or disintegrate forever.

Buff
« Last Edit: Sat Jun 02, 2018 - 14:03:41 by Reformer »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Endless Torture [Part II]
« Reply #16 on: Sat Jun 02, 2018 - 22:14:39 »
Buff,

What many do not understand of death is that, more than anything, it means separation from God. This is what I was aiming to point out in this forum in the past, on the other thread. But sadly, not many seems to even consider.

Now, in relation to sin, death is punishment. As such, separation from God is punishment.

May I ask, what is it for you, or what do you think how it is to be separated from God? Can you describe the experience, even in this life?

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Re: Endless Torture [Part II]
« Reply #17 on: Sat Jun 02, 2018 - 22:36:31 »

Michael2012:

   I think my statement above will answer your question. Here it is again:

   “I’m inclined to believe the 'fire and brimstone' the ungodly will suffer prior to annihilation will manifest itself when they look upon the glory of that eternal, hallowed and stately 'palace' in heaven, with all of its exquisite splendor, and realize what they have foregone because of their rejection of God. That, I think, will be their ‘fire and brimstone,’ followed by eternal destruction or annihilation. The results of their suffering and annihilation will be forever.”

Let me know if this helps.

Buff 

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Endless Torture [Part II]
« Reply #18 on: Sun Jun 03, 2018 - 02:27:59 »
Buff,

What many do not understand of death is that, more than anything, it means separation from God. This is what I was aiming to point out in this forum in the past, on the other thread. But sadly, not many seems to even consider.

Now, in relation to sin, death is punishment. As such, separation from God is punishment.

May I ask, what is it for you, or what do you think how it is to be separated from God? Can you describe the experience, even in this life?

Michael2012:

   I think my statement above will answer your question. Here it is again:

   “I’m inclined to believe the 'fire and brimstone' the ungodly will suffer prior to annihilation will manifest itself when they look upon the glory of that eternal, hallowed and stately 'palace' in heaven, with all of its exquisite splendor, and realize what they have foregone because of their rejection of God. That, I think, will be their ‘fire and brimstone,’ followed by eternal destruction or annihilation. The results of their suffering and annihilation will be forever.”

Let me know if this helps.

Buff


Obviously, even to those who read this topic, I'm pretty sure, it does not Buff.

Let me know your position on the following:

1. The wages of sin is death, which is and means separation from God. Do you agree with this?

2. In relation to sin, death is punishment. Do you agree with this?

3. Separation from God is punishment. Do you agree with this?

4. An unbeliever, a sinner for that matter, is separated from God. Do you agree?

5. Were you at one time, in the past perhaps, an unbeliever, and later became a believer? If so, would you agree on what Paul said about such people in the following passage:

Ephesians 2:1-3
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

That before, you were dead, and were by nature children of wrath, as are all the unbelievers today. And because you are dead, when you became a believer, that you were made alive by Christ. Now, that obviously would not make sense if you were not truly and really dead, isn't it?

So, being dead, in relation to and with regards sin, is more than lying lifeless in the grave. For even those alive are said to be dead, if they do not believe in Christ. Do you not agree?

6. How do you find being separated from God is like? If you can't seem to know that by experience, perhaps you can tell us by your observation and knowledge from friends perhaps, or from people you know who experienced a life without God or separated from God.

With regards annihilation, I believe there is no such thing. All will be resurrected to their eternal existence, both the believer and unbeliever. The unbeliever, together with Satan and the fallen angels, will exist eternally in a state of separation with God, that is, the second death, in the place called Hell, where the lake of fire and brimstone is. Such is an eternal state, opposite to the eternal state of having communion and fellowship with God, that is eternal life, in Heaven.   

Reading:

Rev. 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

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Re: Endless Torture [Part II]
« Reply #19 on: Sun Jun 03, 2018 - 13:11:53 »
Michael2012:

   We’ll disagree on your thesis. For a further clarification, please see Part III, which has been posted.

   Additionally, you might wish to share your insights into the term “destruction” as it pertains to the ungodly. Today’s column refers to that matter as well.

Have a pleasant day,

Buff

Offline TheMatrixHasU71

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Re: Endless Torture [Part II]
« Reply #20 on: Mon Jun 04, 2018 - 08:08:12 »
TheMatrixHasU71:

   BUFF’S QUESTION"If you had the supernatural power, as God has, to literally create a species likened unto the human species, and some of them rebelled and rejected their creator [in this case, you], could you—would you—cast them into a state of endless, conscious torment [torture] and still claim to be a merciful, compassionate, loving creator?"

   TheMatrixHasU71’s RESPONSE“I already answered it by my post that God doesn’t want this but people put themselves there through their rejection of God. And I should have also added then why does the lake of fire even exist? Hmm? And why doesn’t God extend the same compassion to His fallen angels?”

   There exists no disagreement between us relative to the ungodly being responsible for their own fate. I’ll clarify what you seen to be missing in the question I posed.

   Let’s examine this from a terrestrial standpoint. If you were to establish certain rules and guidelines for your children to adhere to [as God has for His children], and also include a form of agonizing punishment or torment for the remainder of their lives should they rebel and reject you, would you—could you—subject them to endless, agonizing torment without somewhere along the line demonstrating your mercy and love and terminating the torment?

   If you truly loved your creation [children] and mercy and compassion were your traits, you would surely bring an end to the cruel and unrelenting chastisement your offspring would be experiencing.

   Case at Hand: Our love and mercy does not even compare to the love and mercy our Lord possesses. We cannot even begin to decipher the depth of God’s love and mercy for those He has created—both the righteous and unrighteous. He does not desire that any be lost.

   If you will do a close study of the biblical terms “destruction” and “perish” as they relate to the ungodly, and that includes your fallen angels, I think you will reconsider your position. Destruction faces the ungodly. As I noted in PART I of this series:

   “I’m inclined to believe the 'fire and brimstone' the ungodly will suffer prior to annihilation will manifest itself when they look upon the glory of that eternal, hallowed and stately 'palace' in heaven, with all of its exquisite splendor, and realize what they have foregone because of their rejection of God. That, I think, will be their ‘fire and brimstone,’ followed by eternal destruction or annihilation. The results of their suffering and annihilation will be forever.” 

   ON “DESTRUCTION”— Jesus, Matt. 7:13; Jesus, Luke 17:12; Paul, Rom. 9:22; Paul, Gal. 6:8; Paul, Phil. 3:19; Paul, I Thess. 5:3; Paul, 2 Thess. 1:9; 2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:3; 2 Peter 3:7; 2 Peter 3:16.

   In closing my comments until PART III tomorrow, I beg you to define the term “destruction.” We either take it at face value or we “spiritualize” it until it loses it’s meaning. To “destruct” is to destroy or disintegrate forever.

Buff

About the part where you say]“I’m inclined to believe the 'fire and brimstone' the ungodly will suffer prior to annihilation will manifest itself when they look upon the glory of that eternal, hallowed and stately 'palace' in heaven , that is just unbiblical opinion that cannot be found in any way in scripture. Fire and brimstone too are plenty clear, they are not what you say they are but they are meant to be taken literally. And there is no definition of the words torment, perish or destruction that imply total annihilationism. More often that not the true meaning of the words are the death of the body and eternal separation of the immortal soul from God (not the death and disappearance of the soul) in hell.  ::frustrated::


Offline TheMatrixHasU71

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Re: Endless Torture [Part II]
« Reply #21 on: Mon Jun 04, 2018 - 08:14:30 »
****That, I think, will be their ‘fire and brimstone,’ followed by eternal destruction or annihilation. The results of their suffering and annihilation will be forever.”  *****

I should also have added that (as I have already quoted I believe, their "annihilation" is not 'forever' it is their torment that is forever as has clearly been marked out by scripture. As the passages speaking of the smoke of their torment rising forever, or mentions of everlasting punishment prove

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Re: Endless Torture [Part II]
« Reply #22 on: Mon Jun 04, 2018 - 10:07:34 »
TheMatrixHasU71:

Just answer my question, which was and is:

  "If you were to establish certain rules and guidelines for your children to adhere to [as God has for His children], and also include a form of agonizing punishment or torment for the remainder of their lives should they rebel and reject you, would you—could you—subject them to endless, agonizing torment without somewhere along the line demonstrating your mercy and love and terminating the torment?"

   For additional info, go to PART III, which has been posted. And thank you for your opinions and conceptions.

Buff
 

 

     
anything